There have been a number of thought provoking comments on the previous article in this series. I’d like to address some of the points raised there. In addition, I entertained some childhood friends the other night and chose to address the elephant in the room. They’ve known for some time that I haven’t been going to meetings, but have never asked why nor let it affect the friendship. So I asked them if they wanted to know the reason and they did. I chose to start with the Organization’s 10-year membership in the UN. The results were revealing.
Is Neutrality an Issue?
Before getting into that discussion, let’s talk about neutrality. A number have raised the argument that claiming the UN is the image of the wild beast is a matter of interpretation and so cannot serve as an identifying mark of true Christianity. Others suggest that the JW view of neutrality is also questionable, and likewise, cannot be used to distinguish true religion from false. Those are valid points worthy of further discussion. However, the issue isn’t whether the standard that Jehovah’s Witnesses have set up for determining the true religion is valid or not. The issue is that Jehovah’s Witnesses have set it up in the first place. They do accept that standard, and they use it to judge all other religions. Therefore, Jesus words should guide us in utilizing their own criteria.
“. . .for with the judgment you are judging, you will be judged, and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you.” (Mt 7:2)
Jehovah’s Witnesses presume to publicly judge and condemn other religions as false and deserving of destruction because they do not meet the requirements which the Organization claims the Bible has established. Therefore, we have a sound basis for measuring Jehovah’s Witnesses by ‘the measure that they are measuring out’ and judging them by with the same ‘judgment with which they are judging’ others.
What I Learned from My Discussion
When I first started to wake up to the reality within the Organization I had always considered to be the one true faith on earth, I had only my understanding of Scripture as a tool. Of course, in the end that is the most powerful tool because God’s Word is a two-edged sword, a mighty weapon for penetrating to the heart of a matter and revealing the true intentions of the heart. His Word is more than just the written word, but is Jesus himself who is the judge of all. (Hebrews 4:12, 13; Revelation 19:11-13)
That being said, there is a practical side to Bible discussion which we must consider. Any discussion we have is conducted with the proverbial Sword of Damocles hanging over our head. There is the ever-present threat that what we say may be used against us by elders in a judicial committee. In addition, we are faced with another difficulty in trying to unmask the falsehood behind many of the teachings unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Most will consider whatever we say as an attack on their faith and will not really allow us to get into the actual proof. They will view the mere act of investigating the Bible with a view to proving or disproving these teachings as a breach of their loyalty to the Organization. How can we prove our points if our listeners refuse to even reason on the evidence.
One of the reasons for this reaction, I believe, is that they find themselves ill equipped to respond. They are so sure of their righteous position that they’ve never questioned it. When someone else does, the immediate response is to go deep into their memory to summon up the proof. What a shock they feel when they find the cupboards are bare. Sure, they can point to numerous publications, but when it comes to Scripture, they come up empty handed and don’t know what to do. Of course, they cannot accept what we say, but unable to defeat us, they retreat into the belief that we must be wrong no matter what. Then they take solace in the knowledge that they really shouldn’t be talking to us in any case, just like the Watchtower says. So they will end the conversation with a high-sounding affirmation like “I love Jehovah and His Organization” which makes them feel loyal and righteous, and then refuse to speak more on the subject. Essentially, they are claiming the moral high ground believing that even if we are right about our understanding of some Scripture, we are still wrong because we are attacking the one true channel Jehovah is using. They will view us as proud and self-willed and counsel us to humbly wait on Jehovah to fix anything that needs fixing, instead of pushing ahead ourselves.
While this reasoning is deeply flawed, it is hard to get them to see that without extensive discussions, which they will not allow us to have in any case.
Like I said, that was the situation when I first started down this path because I didn’t know about the child abuse problem nor the 10-year membership in the UN. Now, all that is changed.
There is no moral high ground anymore, not even an imagined one. How can a 10-year membership in “the political elements of Satan’s system, as represented by the United Nations” be considered moral high ground? (w12 6/15 p. 18 par. 17) They have pictured other religions as prostitutes who did not remain loyal as the bride of Christ to their husbandly owner. Now it is the Governing Body—those responsible for all the actions of the Organization—who have been caught in the camera’s glare making out in the back seat of the car. Those claiming they are the betrothed of Christ have lost their virginity in a very public way.
“These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,” (Re 14:4)
Those claiming to be the “faithful and discreet slave” whom Christ will “appoint over all his belongings” have committed fornication with the wild beast. It doesn’t matter that they broke it off 15 years ago, they lost their virginity and can’t get it back. Worse, they won’t even admit to wrongdoing.
We need not fear accusations of apostasy. We can reply, “Hey, I’m not the one who got caught with my pants down! Why are you blaming me? Do you want me to participate in a cover-up? Is that what Jehovah would want us to do?”
You see, they have no defense. If they refuse to acknowledge that the organization did anything wrong, then further discussion will prove futile, and worse, will amount to throwing pearls before swine. Perhaps they will mull over what you have revealed and let it affect their heart. Perhaps in time they’ll come back to you, or perhaps they will cut you off because you present a danger to their worldview. Unfortunately, you can lead a man to water, but you can’t make him drink.
“. . .And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” (Re 22:17)
Yehorakam thank you for such a fine response. After the ARC in 2015 my conscience would not allow me to remain apart of the WT organisation, like many others I went through a grieving process of mourning the loss of who I was, or what I believed, my strength to endure this life had been shattered into a million pieces. In time I could neither pray nor read the Bible because I no longer knew what truth was nor which bible, if any, held the ‘truth’ in fact if truth ever existed in the first place. I have not even… Read more »
Hello Karen, When I write things on this site, I hope people will find them of some value, but I had no idea anything I might say would affect people personally as they seem to have affected you. (I hope that’s a good thing.) I have been away from the KH for a number of years, so I am evidently no longer viewed as part of their congregation. Sometimes JWs approach me and say hello, but they never ask how I am or why I am not at meetings. I am totally irrelevant to them. My wife passed away 5… Read more »
I believe that quote came from Dr. Martin Luther King.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb_g4jkPqUw
MLK quoted the spiritual, but yes, during the conclusion of his famous speech, he used those words.
Thank you for your kind words and encouragement Robert. I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your wife and your subsequent heart attack life can be a challenge. I wish you good health and happiness….
It is disgusting that no one from the so called ‘identified by their love religion’ failed to offer any of that abundant love at such a difficult time.. I agree with you totally they are ‘morally bankrupt and despicable’….
Thank you again for your encouraging and kindly response… take care ….
Hi Karen, nice to have you back, and thanks for YOUR comments.
Karen, so nice to have you back!
[…] me the next article in this […]
First of all, Meleti, I hope I didn’t sidetrack you in your series of articles by my comment. I acknowledged that it was the Witnesses who put the issue of neutrality as a identifying mark of true Christians. You do well to judge them by their own standards. That is only right. I apologize if my comment that ‘it shouldn’t be on the list’ might have distracted you in any way. I was not objecting to your focus, but rather the Witnesses’ list. Do not focus on those that won’t be convinced. Keep up the good work, for there are… Read more »
Beautifully said Yehorakam.
Your reply, Christian is wonderfully clear. Job held to his integrity, so did decent Kings in a corrupt Israel. Let us not be hypocrites. We all have the Bible, and with the help of like minded ones (here) we can search for the truth and find it and do whatever we can to please Jehovah and Jesus.
We must all be true to ourselves.
I wish it was that simple.
You wrote, “However, the issue isn’t whether the standard that Jehovah’s Witnesses have set up for determining the true religion is valid or not. The issue is that Jehovah’s Witnesses have set it up in the first place. They do accept that standard, and they use it to judge all other religions. Therefore, Jesus words should guide us in utilizing their own criteria.” I am afraid the issue (at least, AN issue), really IS whether the WT standard for true religion is valid or not. Why? Consider it from WT’s point of view. Suppose you were to present irrefutable evidence… Read more »
You are absolutely right, Robert. The majority will not accept this reasoning. I’ve found the most common response is, “Well, they’re not members anymore.” As if that excuses them. How silly really.
“Hey, that man hit me with a hammer.”
“Really? Is he doing it now?”
“No, he stopped.”
“Then what are you on about?”
It is for that one-in-a-hundred or one-in-a-thousand that this reasoning hits home that we make the effort. The road is indeed cramped and the gate narrow, but some will go through it.
Hi Meleti, I think what Robert says is true, that the majority won’t listen. It’s the same for any preaching work. As frustrating as it may be, it doesn’t mean it’s not worthwhile! I think it is God who changes hearts, but think what an encouragement your work has been to so many people! It reminds me of the days of the iron curtain, and even today in the middle east, when people would risk everything just so others could hear the good news, or get their own bible. I know it’s daunting and exhausting, and that you’ve suffered personal… Read more »
I hope readers of my earlier post won’t be discouraged or think I am dismissing Meleti’s argument or its validity. I’m not. He did a fine job presenting that material. It’s just important to understand the nature of the WT organization. It is a master of obfuscation. I suspect some R+F JW’s actually WILL listen, but the organization itself (the GB and other high-up members) will not. It’s true that if you judge WT by its own rules, and they failed to live up those rules, then yes, that would be embarrassing for them. But being embarrassed alone is not… Read more »
Very true amoreomeara …. It is God who changes hearts, another warm thought to embrace us and take the pressure from our shoulders, we do not have to convince anyone other than ourselves in order to stay strong and content…
I agree Robert, the WT and those who relish the power will not listen because they will not want to give up that power and prestige, but that’s okay ….. What do those at the top say?
“Wait on Jehovah”
Had a discussion with a JW earlier in the week specifically about the UN involvement. He was instantly dismissive. He came back and challenged me so I calmly explained some more.. the next day he’s scratching his little old head!
He’s definitely wondering about some things now.. It’s worth it.
We turn ourselves inside out trying to get the precise truth straight. I just don’t see that Jah or Jesus are so hung-up over it. Truth, it seems can be a variable and timing has much to do with it. But if we scour the Gospels and Paul’s letters we might notice that the real emphasis is on the sincerity and integrity one holds to one’s belief. When Christ debated with the Parisees et al he never ever engaged with doctrinals. What condemned all those men was not the particulars of their belief but their hypocrisy in their application of… Read more »
Dear Christian, you give the answer as to what we should do. We should not be hypocrites or hide what we are – Psalm 26:4
This was my dilemna Christian.
Well written, as Colette has responded ….
“I Have not sat with men of untruth.
And with those who hide what they are I do not come in”
Hi All I am new to the site or I should say posting. I have enjoyed all the articles and comments. I agree with Colette so much, they swiftly take action against those that fornicate even when the individual goes to the elders on their own, which to me is a sign of repentance. However, Pedophiles can stay in the congregation. Not only are they a threat to the congregation but the communities in which the live. They should be registered as Sex Offenders but instead are protected. APPALLING!!! I did not know until recently from this site and others… Read more »
When i had my wake-up call 3 months ago i was asking myself the question. what would be the the most faith-shaking argument for me to deal with. would it be an argument regarding doctrine or would it be hypocrisy. I believe that the Bible is sufficient so therefore my whole emphasis has been on doctrine. Now, the Bible is actually sufficient in my case, but it seems like arguments that deals with hypocrisy is much more powerful when it comes to other people. discussing the whole idea of neutrality brings to mind the Mexico-Malawi situation. Extreme Double standards where… Read more »
Bjorn, you make an excellent point. When I think back on the many encounters Jesus had with the Pharisees, his major rebuke of them always went back to their hypocritical actions. He even told people to do as they say, but not as they do. (Mt 23:3) He spent his last days publicly denouncing them as hypocrites. (Matthew chapters 22 and 23)
Bjorn I have discovered is that there is always a second biblical argument that seems equally valid from a scriptural viewpoint. We cannot be certain of any doctrine. No one has a 100% correct understanding of scripture, and I doubt that it is possible.
Yet we can be sure of our conduct, our lack of hypocrisy, and our love. These are things that we can understand and do. Jesus said true Christians will be identified by their fruit as a fine tree CANNOT bear rotten fruit and vice versa, not by their bible knowledge.
AT Matthew 24:51 the evil slave is assigned to a place with the hypocrites. So hypocrisy is quite obviously the sin the f&ds commits. Apart from secretly being a member of the UN, while lambasting other churches for belonging, for me the greatest hypocrisy is to pretend to be a moral organization that swiftly deals with wrongdoing like fornication, but then secretly allowing the RAPE of children. Yes, fornication is wrong, but at least there were two consenting adults. HOW can they justify sexual abuse of children. IT is even MORE wrong. I know of someone who was abused when… Read more »
A significant flaw in the GB’s FDS doctrine is how they handle the evil slave issue. In the past, they treated that as literal, and said there was an “evil slave class”. Today, they say virtually nothing about the evil slave, who they now view as merely a ‘warning’ for faithful Christians to avoid their example. That is a problem. The account of the FDS is, both by its composition and where it appears in context, clearly identify it as a parable. But no, WT says it is a prophecy that applies to the last does. However, when then then… Read more »
Hi Robert,
Those are good points. However, to be fair to the GB’s own novelty, the current interpretation of the evil slave is not unique to themselves. It appears that in their most recent revision they took counsel from the NET Bible’s translation footnotes.
Yes, if we look at the NET Bible study notes, it does seem WT lifted their interpretation from them. WT does say that ‘some scholars’ view it that way, but in typical fashion, they don’t attribute the source. I don’t really disagree that the evil slave is hypothetical, since that’s what a parable is: a warning about what may or may not happen, depending on the conduct and response of his listeners. My objection was that if Jesus is talking about a FDS and immediately follows that by talking about an evil slave, it is hard to view it as… Read more »
Complicating things still further is the introduction of two additional slaves in Luke’s parallel account in the 12 chapter from verse 41 onward.
As the ARC probes deeper into the disgusting abuse of children, the numbers are growing, the stories more disturbing. As former victims many now survivors feel free enough, supported enough, believed enough, their horrific stories emerge of paedophile rings at very high levels. As Colette has stated these abused are all too often punished by the elders within their congregations. Forced to face their abuser and retell their horrific story before two male witnesses without any female support. Only to be disbelieved and labelled liar ‘filthy apostate’ if they dare to go to the RC. Too many have completed suicide… Read more »
My take –
The very idea of reasoning on doctrine is futile.
For the most part, our Elder Body is comprised of zealots. Where has discussing anything with a zealot been successful?
God’s Spirt will sort it out.
Now, …discussing our glorious history is another matter all together….
Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream…
Merrily, merrily life is but a dream …. or rather WT doctrine is but a dream ….
Hi Meleti, The same thing occured with me. I tried to discuss some of these matters with family & friends.The minute you start showing scriptures or proof that their teaching is wrong they refuse to listen or say do you know more than the ffds? Some my say I’m being overly critical. If it gets heated well they will use the A word. Lol lol or borderline apostate..Of course the org can never do wrong because with years & years of indoctrination & brainwashing the org is always good,trusting, loving, peaceable, helping, Godly, caring etc etc..You know what I mean..The… Read more »
I think the next time someone asks me if I think I know more than the Governing Body, I’m going to answer, “Well, I know enough not to join the United Nations and I know enough to report a child rapist to the police, so what do you think?”
Whenever I read about someone being confronted with this question, “So, do you think you know more than the Governing Body” it just makes me livid. We ought to confront this question, head on, for what it is. It is clearly a “lose-lose” question, right up there with “have you stopped beating your wife?” Whether you say Yes or No, it doesn’t look good. Assuming you are person that does not beat their wife, the technically correct answer is No, since you cannot “stop” something you never started. But, most people would not appreciate the subtlety of that answer. Likewise… Read more »
Before I answer that if you can tell me first which group the Governing Body belongs to from Matthew 11:25. Don’t read it. Just let them look it up. “. . .At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.” (Mt 11:25) If they say “wise and intellectual” then you can say, well I am just a babe. If they say “the babes”, then you can say we’ll aren’t we all supposed to be babes? If… Read more »
Meleti, you said it better than me, and in fewer words to boot!
Hello Robert,
Feb 2017 Study WT page 26 par 12 – Says:
“The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction.”
So, I said to my friend (after getting them to read that)
….”Therefore if that is the case, wouldn’t it be important for us to treat with caution – and indeed even question some things?”
Hi Robert. You are absolutely right that this question is best answered by a question. You offered some good ones. And Meleti’s response with Matt 11:25 is a good one too. I once used the following defence against two elders. I read them James 1:5 “So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him.” Then asked them that did they notice that God gives generously to anyone, not just to GB, but to anyone, to me, to them, whoever.… Read more »
Well said Meleti
I use to say: How come we learned to preach for people that the beroean “received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Ac 17.11)
But later we ask them to shut up.
I also try with humor saying: We are not thinking for ourself, we have 7 hired men to do the job.
Thank you Meleti! You CAN lead a man to water and make him drink……if you salt his food first! That’s how I ended up here on your site, I had visited many other ex-witness websites and chat rooms, didn’t care for most of the anger and vitriol, but I found your link mentioned on one and have been an avid visitor for the last several years. I was skeptical at first and didn’t want to drink….but your honest Bible based articles and loving spirit “salted” my spiritual food and I am truly grateful. I have often stated that when you… Read more »
Yes these are all good questions. This quote from your previous discussion tells the tale; “Some may feel that they can interpret the Bible on their own. However, Jesus has appointed the ‘faithful slave’ to be the only channel for dispensing spiritual food. “Since 1919, the glorified Jesus Christ has been using that slave to help his followers understand God’s own Book and heed its directives. By obeying the instructions found in the Bible, we promote cleanness, peace, and unity in the congregation. Each one of us does well to ask himself, ‘Am I loyal to the channel that Jesus… Read more »
You have my vote, John S
Isn’t voting a violation of neutrality?
:-))
Good point! I’ve cast lots, and it came up for you. 🙂
I wonder if anyone has noticed how self-serving the GB is in proclaiming themselves the FDS. They are the ones who define the criteria for who the FDS is, and who are they? The GB themselves. By presuming to interpret the Bible account of the FDS as a prophecy, and then applying it to themselves, they materially benefit, by being granted power and authority over a world-wide organization. Doesn’t that add up to an enormous conflict of interest? To my knowledge, NO ONE besides the GB has ever independently verified the conclusion that the GB is the FDS. They proclaim… Read more »
Robert, you said – “I wonder if anyone has noticed how self-serving the GB is in proclaiming themselves the FDS.”
This was a key factor in my “Somethings wrong here..” moment. I said to my wife at the time “these guys seeem to be making it up as they go..” (by the way, that went down badly)!
I like your reasoning on them “verifying” themselves and the scripture is spot on. Thanks.
Hi Robert. I believe I made that very point in this article:
http://meletivivlon.com/2013/09/28/who-really-is-the-faithful-and-discreet-slave/
Yes, that’s a good article, I just checked it out.
Hi Gogetter, ” With one word “disfellowship” and all that it entails they are able to keep thousands or maybe millions who must be spiritually awake,captive while holding family and friends as hostages. The devil couldn’t have come up with a better Christian prison…or did he? ” SPOT. ON. Also, from my research on ex-mormon websites and also following along with the Scientology series on TV, it appears that this ‘disfellowhipping method’ is what keeps most people who are awake in their own religions from being able to leave. The exact terminology is a bit different between the high control… Read more »