Should I Partake at this Memorial?

Comment by “Religion Is a Snare and a Racket! | Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2018-03-23 19:25:39

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Comment by Devora on 2018-03-14 22:11:03

Amen,you've thoroughly,beautifully covered it!

• Reply by katrina on 2018-03-18 23:46:01

  Thank you for your excellent article, if I attend and don't partake I am rejecting Christ sacrifice for salvation, that is how I now see it.

Comment by Bernardbooks on 2018-03-14 22:51:44

Thank you Eric for the article.
The scripture you mentioned in 1 John 3:2,3 is a wonderful reminder that we can be happy and content to know we’ll be like Jesus and can’t know or need to know every detail about what we’ll be like.

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-03-15 05:07:37

Hi Eric, thanks for bringing out these thoughts. Many Churches teach the Trinity and explain it away as a mystery.
Similarly to JWs there is the heavenly hope mystery. Obviously as I do not have some specific witness from God of that hope, as it is explained by JWs, it is a mystery to me. The sad thing is that if I partake, at the Memorial observance, then there is a fair chance that enough questions will be asked and I will end up being disfellowshipped, knowing what else I may find myself blurting out as a result of being asked.

So, for doing what Jesus commands I could get kicked out. And yet he (Matthew 10:38) speaks of those not accepting his torture stake as not being worthy of him. There are plenty of similar scriptures.

I do hope Jesus and Jehovah understand the predicament many of us are in, and I must commend those who do partake at the JW observance, despite realising all the potential consequences, and understanding that we are discussing here. You were one brave bunny when you did so at your Kingdom Hall, Eric.

Meanwhile the question you ask "Do I love Jehovah enough and trust him enough to stop worrying about this and just obey" is a real soul searcher, and one I shall continue to ponder on.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-15 09:46:33

  The best answer in my experience is "It's personal." I just kept saying it over and over, despite the provocative and probing questions the elders would ask. It drove them crazy, because they are not used to not having their authority recognized.
  
  To clarify, my wife didn't go to that memorial, but did partake with me later at home. She knew that if she went and partook, it would lead to even worse rumours and slander. But she couldn't go and then refuse to partake, so she chose what to her was the best course.
  
  So I'm not encouraging anyone to go and partake, since Jesus said nothing about that. He only said that we should partake, but the circumstances and location are left entirely up to the individual. Once we are freed of the Organizational mindset we've grown up with, the truth really does set us free!
  
  Your brother in Christ,
  
  Meleti

• Reply by Eleasar on 2018-03-15 13:07:42

  Hi Leonardo,
  
  I have used a different approach when asked about partaking. I show them some of the scriptures Eric has highlighted and ask them, "how does the scripture talk to you?" Since they believe that the "anointed" see different things in the bible, they tend to accept it. I add, the scriptures, my mind and heart are all in agreement and leave it at that.
  
  Since 2007 I don't think they get too heavy handed as the question from readers clearly highlight the calling has not ended.
  
  For those who get really aggressive, I ask why do they not question whether the GB are anointed or not? The 2007 Question from Readers was to get them off the hook. Just turn the tables and people leave you alone.

Comment by John of ARC on 2018-03-15 05:31:02

Thank you for a heart warming and comforting article, Eric. I wonder how Jesus felt witnessing Rutherford rolling out his doctrine.
The (final and definite) location of the little flock and the great crowd is not something we should be very dogmatic about. To understand this issue better, I am interested in your (and other forum attendants’) take on 1 Thess 4:13-18.
Thanks!

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-15 09:40:38

  I look forward to hearing the thoughts of others, but one thing is clear, the resurrection of the dead has not yet started, despite what the Org teaches about 1919. (Isn't there somewhere in the Bible where Paul condemns those so-called Christians who are preaching that the resurrection has already occurred?)
  
  What I take from Thessalonians is that when Jesus returns, he will start by resurrecting the anointed. This is the first resurrection. (Re 20:4-6) Then he will transform those of God's chosen in the twinkling of an eye. Together, these will rise to meet Jesus who has descended from heaven to "take care of business".

  • Reply by Eleasar on 2018-03-15 13:55:55

    The resurrection of dead problem goes away if we apply the technical meaning of parousia as the coming of a king or
    high official. Unfortunately, WTBTS only stick with the traditional meaning of presence. This goes back to 1874 and when nothing happened about the return, some one called Brother Keith, spotted the word parousia and presence in Benjamin Wilson’s Diaglott. They used this along with the invisible presence concept to show that Christ has returned but invisibly. This then got transferred to 1914 in the late 20s/ early 30s. If we have one event I.e. the coming, then the dead are resurrected as he returns and we join him.
    
    Since no one knows the day or hour we cannot predict it. We must stay awake and keep on the watch. Interestingly, only Matthew uses parousia 4 times in chapter 24, the others do not. This makes sense as Matthew focused on the King and the Kingdom in his Gospel. Hence the technical term fits better contextually.

    • Reply by Yehorakam on 2018-03-16 19:02:51

      Indeed if Matthew's use of parousia was God's way of establishing a complicated explanation in relation to Christ's coming, it would be confirmed a second time by Mark or Luke. There are always 2 or 3 "witnesses." Plus Paul shows in 2 Thess 1:7-10 & 2:1,2 that Christ's parousia or coming is timed with the first resurrection and the start of Armageddon. Pretty well a "triple play."
      
      The first resurrection will start on the day that corresponds with atonement day in the Jewish calendar. We just don't know the year yet. When the Jews start offering animal sacrifices in Jerusalem again, then we can pinpoint many dates including the first resurrection. The first to be resurrected will be the two last prophets, then Christians of old and then Christians who die at the conclusion of the age. It's all there in Rev 6:9-11; 11:11-18; 1 Thess 4:13-17. The time span will be very short, less than a month. So it could just be a matter of days or a week or two. But that's a good ways off. Lots of other things to be concerned about before then.
      
      Each year I've got my eyes on upcoming Pentecosts, hoping and waiting to see many blessed with perhaps the greatest outpouring of spirit in history. That's when 'the good news of the Kingdom will be preached and the end will come.' The preaching done by religions over the last 2000 yrs (including JWs) has not been done under the direction of the HS. It should prove exciting to see how everything pans out. Really all we have to do is wait.

Comment by Vox Ratio on 2018-03-15 06:05:17

Hi Meleti,

Another very informative article, thank you.

You said:
"Is there anywhere in the Bible where is says that the anointed go off to live in heaven?"

Well, perhaps not to live, but Revelation 19:14 does locate those who are clothed in white linen as being in the heavens (EN TW OURANW). Interestingly, only six verses earlier the white linen is said to stand for the righteous deeds of the saints. Of course, it's possible that all of this might be interpreted in keeping with Paul's description of meeting the Lord in the air (1 Th. 4:17), however such a view would seem to presuppose that air (AERA) is synonymous with heaven here. Still, of the four other NT occurrences of AERA, not one of them represents the location of the divine abode.

So I guess the whole thing is still up in the air (pun intended).

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-15 09:36:17

  Right you are, Vox. Then there's Jesus words:
  
  "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. 4 And where I am going YOU know the way.” (John 14:2-4)
  
  Actually, I find the whole prospect to be very exciting.

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-03-18 19:12:22

    Could you tell us what, exactly, you believe that prospect to be?

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-18 23:39:01

      Didn't I already do that in the article? From our comments I understand you have a specific understanding of what the hope is, and I respect that. However, as I've stated, I believe we can only go so far before we get into conjecture? I'm leery about sharing my conjecture publicly.

      • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-03-19 17:57:35

        I wasn't really trying to start a debate or anything, nor do I want you to feel leery. I just wanted to clarify what you meant when you said "I find the whole prospect to be very exciting". I am not sure I know what you area referring back to.

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-19 18:47:44

          No problem, Robert. I didn't think you were trying to start a debate. I know you have certain views on the nature of our reward from past comments you've made, and I respect that. For me, the prospect of the reward that Jesus has promised is very exciting. I used the analogy of a wrapped gift to describe it. One may have an inkling of what the gift box contains by its weight, shape and size. Even though one can only guess at the contents, one can't help but feel excited, especially when considering the giver. Jehovah--all wise, all powerful, all loving--has promised us a gift, and so how can we not feel excitement at the prospect.

Comment by JackSprat on 2018-03-15 07:20:38

A very thoughtful article Eric. It is interesting that Nisan 14 starts on Friday evening according to the Jewish calendar this year. the information that after his resurrection our Lord Jesus used a fleshly body who ate with his apostles is an interesting thought.

Comment by Joseph Anton on 2018-03-15 10:20:33

I found myself emotional listening to this podcast this morning. And by that I mean oscillating back and forth. It's an uncomfortable proposition for me. Not only in the manner of succumbing to peer pressure and a lifetime of indoctrination, but there must be lots of people like myself who have sworn off of alcohol. I have no idea what to do other than participate as I've always done - which is not at all. This pull between doing what I believe to be true and being labeled a weird apostate, and all of the suspicion that goes with that, and just capitulating to the fact that maybe God will forgive those in my situation, and hold those that put me in it from the day of birth accountable in the end, is extremely tough, emotionally vexing terrain to navigate. In the end I love my family more than anything and am not willing to lose them for any reason. Maybe next year I'll start partaking online with you guys or alone in my own fashion. I thought your proposals about what being 'anointed' might mean as far as life in heaven or earth or somewhere in between compelling and oddly comforting after being a bit distraught over the anguishing decision to partake or not in this coming memorial. Thanks for dreaming Eric. I feel like our imaginations were collectively tamped down by a secular organization opposed to anything fantastic they didn't think up first.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-15 11:18:19

  Hi Joseph,
  
  I partook a couple of years back while in Europe with a family whose matriarch had suffered from alcoholism. She had a handle on it, but she and her whole family were all concerned that even a taste might set her off again. We used grape juice instead of wine for her sake. Likewise, there are some who cannot eat wheat, being allergic to it. Jesus uses the wine and the bread as symbols, nothing more. He would not want us to get sick in any way as a consequence of eating or drinking them. With symbols, what counts is what the symbol represents, not the symbol itself. Yet we as humans have the tendency to imbue the symbol with the attributes of what it symbolizes. Thus, the symbol becomes the reality. This is not good.
  
  You see this with arguments over the "proper" pronunciation of God's name. What issues from my mouth when I say God's name are vibrations in the air. These are audible symbols that our eyes pick up and translate into an image of the reality that is God. In Spanish, they say phonetically, "hey-o-va". There is no English "J" sound in most Spanish dialects, Argentinian Spanish being a notable exception. (Apparently, the English "J" sound should be replaced with a "Y" sound, but that's another dicussion.) The point is, the symbol for the name (audible vibrations in the air), though different in Spanish, represents the same reality. (I'm sure that even if we could hear Abraham enunciate the divine name, we could not reproduce it, because our throat, tongue and facial muscles are not trained to produce all those sounds.)
  
  Anyway, my point is that we should be able to use alternate symbols, if there are significant extenuating circumstances, and know that our Lord will understand, because what the symbols represent is our recognition of the reality that is his flesh and blood for our salvation.

  • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-03-15 11:23:46

    So a Red Bull and a Twinkie it is. ;) Thanks man.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-15 11:29:35

      Wow, a sugar high combined with a Caffeine hit. You'd come out of that memorial looking like Bill the Cat! ACK!

      • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-03-15 11:42:01

        Few people are old enough to get the 'Bill the Cat' reference. But not I. lol

  • Reply by rusticshore on 2018-03-15 21:25:53

    Remember when Lot asked Jehovah to escape to a nearby city, Zoar? He was suppose to flee to the mountainous region. But he begged Jehovah to allow him to go to Zoar, and asked, "Is it not a small thing?" Interesting, is that Genesis 19:18-22 describes that Jehovah was planning on destroying the town he asked to flee to... Zoar, along with Sodom! Verse 21: He said to Lot, "Behold, I grant you this request also, not to overthrow the town of which you have spoken."
    
    The point? Our Father understands a great deal of our capabilities, and limitations. Again, the wine was a symbol... and by extension, grape juice is made from a "product of the vine". . . grapes!

    • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-03-16 10:36:58

      I should be more clear. For personal reasons mostly involving a realigning of will power and new terms on my relationship with alcohol I decided to take at least a year off from drinking, and to instead do more research into anything I'm curious about. It's been a life altering experience - it feels like I finally am on the path that leads to the trail that leads to the start of the road of enlightenment.

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-03-16 19:07:10

    Likewise, Jesus would not expect someone (though perhaps not sensitive to bread or wine) to partake if they were very sick or severely injured, when merely being present and part of an observance might be life threatening for them. One of the more important, and less-quoted of bible passages tells us, Let your reasonableness become known among men. I totally agree with Eric about the symbols. The point is not to consume alcohol, but to remember.

• Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-03-17 05:02:48

  Goodness me! How many more of us are stuck in the same situation as you are, Joseph You have expressed my own thoughts and concerns very well.
  Fortunately Jehovah can count the hairs on my head and I believe that he and Jesus will understand us better than we think.
  Integrity is about being faithful to God based on the understanding we have, not what we do not have, although our searching for him involves using what he has given us.
  Love to all here.

  • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-03-17 10:06:45

    I'm reading Jordan Petrsen's book 12 Rules for Life - tons of biblical references in there by the way - and here's a quote I pulled from it yesterday that struck home with me:
    
    "We all contain wisdom that we cannot comprehend."
    
    He's talking about society's urge to debate what is good and what isn't and how, because of our consciences installed right from birth, we just instinctively know which things we do are good things and which we do are bad. I should point out that I normally don't read selfhelp books, but I listened to a podcast with Peterson discussing order and chaos and juxtaposing that concept with what happened in Eden and found myself super intrigued. So far it's been a fascinating read.

    • Reply by wild olive on 2018-03-28 04:48:36

      Hi JA
      I also have been looking into some of Jordan Petersons work, most enlightening what he has to say about organisations.
      In many ways he is taking a stand against moral decay in the world right now, even doing a better job than many "holy men" including the GB.

Comment by Bernardbooks on 2018-03-15 11:28:42

I never gave much thought in the past to the fact that the organization puts pictures in every other magazine or publication of an artist representation of paradise earth but when it comes to their “144,000 class” hope the only pictures I can ever remember seeing is a mass sea of thrones with men with white hair and beards and crowns just sitting there. I think it actually shows how the org has viewed the whole idea of rulership with Christ over others even though Jesus showed that although ruling will encompass having great authority and power, the way of ruling will be much different than what we have seen in the way of human rulership. (Matthew 20:25-28)

Since they teach that eating of the tree of life in “the paradise of God” is promised to those conquering through their faith by Jesus in Revelation 2:7, and 1 John 5:3,4, why do they not even have an artist representation of that hope pictured in the publications. I sincerely wonder if it’s because they do not want to broadcast too much about that because a small and shrinking number of that class would better suit their interpretations and predictions.

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-03-16 12:16:55

  I am surprised how many times I have read comments about WT illustrations. So many people have such strong feelings about them! It is as if these pictures have reached their hearts and touched their souls (whether justifiably so or not) and then when they find out these simply represent the teachings of men they become hurt and disillusioned.
  
  We should apply clear thinking when viewing such illustrations. What do they actually represent? Not the teachings of the Bible, but the thoughts of men, and in particular, the mindset of the GB at that particular time.
  
  Why does WT persist in creating such pictures? The same reason anyone creates images or music or any other creative work: It is done to emotionally sway the audience. (That would be YOU in this case.)
  
  What happens when a person is emotionally swayed by a creative work? They buy them (or, buy more of them). Examples: Movies, TV shows, music, books, even food.
  
  In the case of WT, the GB wants you to buy in to their doctrinal view of the world and its future. Does that mean they are trying to "indoctrinate" you (perhaps falsely) about having an earthly hope? Perhaps.
  
  Personally, I believe there is *only* an earthly hope, so I don't share some of the animus towards WT that others have expressed about this. However, I think the more important motivation on the part of WT is not so much their wish for you to believe in an earthly paradise, but their wish for you to believe in THEM. By dangling pictures of paradise in front of you, and using them to emotionally sway you, it keeps you devoted to an earthly organization, investing your time, money and energies to support them.
  
  In other words, these pictures are used to manipulate and control people - regardless of the validity of the implied message underlying the pictures.
  
  In my humble opinion, using pictures to manipulate and control people in the name of God, people who look to you for spiritual guidance and hope for their future salvation - especially when the underlying message is doctrinally suspect or outright false - is not a very nice thing to do.

  • Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-03-18 10:25:52

    Hi Robert,
    
    You nailed that comment. To emotionally sway no matter what is real or imagined is what they do- and do it rather well....

Comment by lazarus on 2018-03-15 18:08:35

Thanks Eric, great article, easy reading and those objections for not partaking which plague individuals like myself well reasoned. I recently told a few in discreet that I would partake this year, well their responses were negative. One even suggested “I was a replacement for a fallen unfaithful servant” No Joke.

If one reads the bible , would you conclude that Jesus is not addressing all when he said: "keep doing this in remembrance of me," it is not because they concluded this from their own reading of the Bible, but because they have been systematically taught it by the Organisation of JWs. That was true of myself. How and who decided this change? This was decided at a convention in 1935, or the 1934 Wt Article (Kindness) dealing with doctrinal changes of hopes and classes of Christians. These changes rests on nothing more types/anti types, eg 6 cities of refuge & Jehu/Jehonadab class( now not valid according to the Organisation) tie in with the chronological speculations and from men’s eyes and that number of 144k reaching its Zenith in the 1920’s. So, logically in their summations, they decided to shut the doors of believers to partake in 1935, officially. Artfully contrived reasoning as it turned out.

So passing these emblems in a formal, ritualistic way without sharing in them has no Scriptural precedent. It’s the Orgs. ( JW) tradition-a tradition of their own making. This tradition first began in 1938-the first year the Society decided to invite members of the "great crowd" to attend, not to partake of the memorial emblems. From 1935- 1938 the so-called "other sheep" were not even invited to this annual observance. So what did ones do for those 3 years! What were they thinking of these new changes?

Paul recommended regarding the Lord's Evening Meal: 'First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and thus let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup.' (1 Corinthians 11:28, 29) Did you notice that Paul says you are the one who is to do the approving after scrutiny'?

In ancient Israel what qualified a non-Israelite to partake of the Passover was circumcision. In the Christian system of worship "circumcision" is in connection with the heart-the heart of faith. (Romans 2:29; 10:9) It is the cleansing power or faith in Christ's sacrifice: -Col 2: 11-14,

Thanks Eric, much appreciated, after stating I would to a few, I have decided not to partake at the hall, not out of fear of man, so rather, I’ll will partake on my own or I’ll join your online group. I feel my experience now guides me to partake worthily be it alone or with others that the focus is on Christ and not on me.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-15 22:26:15

  Thanks for adding that insight regarding circumcision, Leonardo. That's really interesting. That connection hadn't occurred to me before.

  • Reply by lazarus on 2018-03-15 22:44:28

    Your welcome ?

Comment by Joseph Anton on 2018-03-15 18:29:16

So can someone explain what Paul meant in 1 Cor 11:29,30? How is one worthy, and how do we drink judgment against ourselves? Honestly curious. No agenda.

• Reply by Yehorakam on 2018-03-15 22:10:11

  Well, the way I feel is that not all who show up at a gathering to partake of the emblems are necessarily led by spirit. Partaking is showing you have become one with Christ and led by his spirit. Paul often had strong questions for those who claimed to be anointed by spirit, yet their being led by fleshly attitudes (jealousy, pride, slander, lies) and fleshly ways raised serious questions as to whether Christ had really called them and bestowed them with his spirit (see 1 Cor 1:10-15; 3:1-4; 4:8,18,19; 6:15-18; 2 Cor 11:1-15; 12:19-21). He really scratched his head a lot. If you are given his spirit, you are made anew, born again. The receiving of spirit is a life changing experience that does not leave you the same. I could go on for hours about the changes it's had on me, but that's personal.
  
  Most of the time, Paul asked straight questions but refrained from saying whether he thought others were anointed or baptized by spirit. He gave his brothers and sisters the benefit of the doubt. That is best. Who are we to judge the house servant of another? (Christ). We are house servants and would do best to pay attention to our own task rather than watching how others are doing. Others will stand or fall before the master when he arrives. He has already revealed that he will indeed reject many who claimed to have his spirit and do works in his name. This makes us aware that many might be called by Christ, but few are chosen.
  
  It also helps to remember that the other members in the body are not perfect, so occasional errors or a lack of understanding do not indicate someone isn't anointed with spirit. Peter, Paul and Barnabas all made mistakes and didn't always have the same things taught to them by the Spirit at the same time. But, as time went by, the spirit taught them and put them all on the same page so that they were "one." They did not judge one another but enjoyed the uniting force that the Spirit created.
  
  So, partaking doesn't mean you have been baptised by spirit. The situation in Corinth proved that. So, if someone examines himself as Paul says... and being honest with himself he knows he isn't ONE with Christ/hasn't been born again or made new in the force actuation his mind (putting on the Christ so to speak), he would be better not to partake. I believe Paul's counsel was directed by spirit so it should be meditated on, and each person should decide for him/herself whether to partake or not. Those are Paul's words, not mine.
  
  For that reason I do not encourage, nor discourage anyone from partaking. I believe Christ will make each one stand. But when it comes to the HOPE Christ laid out before us, that is a different story. I definitely encourage all to make the Kingdom of the heavens the only goal to which they should be pressing forward. Christ did not offer us a hope that would somehow not be as delightful as the hope the organization paints in their pictures for the "other sheep." He offers us much better. He offers us the BEST! Why would we hold back from accepting his invitation, even if that meant being labelled or facing persecution? In general, people hold back because they are cherishing something physical. Love for Christ throws fear of losing things outside, and the spirit teaches us that nothing we possess, nothing, can compare to what he will give us. The true question is do we truly, really believe that? Words do not answer that question. Actions are what answer it. So let our actions show that we have faith in Christ's promises. Always.
  
  Much love

  • Reply by Devora on 2018-03-16 08:30:59

    Yehorakam your comment here went straight to my heart.You,Meliti,Tadua,WOand so many more on here,clearly express and sum-up,exactly what I've felt/recognized in my longtime studies in the Scriptures--but--I'm too 'wordy'(& talk a LOT,in person..lol)!I'm so grateful that Jah+Christ understand.(I have 'Dabrowski's Overexcitabilities';born that way).Very few fellow JW's ever'got'me..that's ok even on here.Because we are all together on the narrow path to our Hope,in Christ.

  • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-03-16 10:01:45

    I am impressed with these answers. And frankly grateful that you put this much thought and energy (and time) into answering my question. You've given me much to chew on - all of you. Thanks so much.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-15 22:22:57

  The key to understanding those verses comes from the preceding comments from Paul in chapter 11:
  
  But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, r I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-03-18 19:10:23

  When I read that in the past, I always concluded that the eating and drinking they were doing was, not so much denying others a opportunity to do so also, but that they were treating the emblems as if they were ordinary food and drink, consuming them without thought as to their sacred significance. So, the unleavened bread didn't signify the body of Christ, but was just a hunk of bread to be gulped down. They showed disrespect and took these things for granted.

• Reply by wild olive on 2018-03-29 00:31:04

  Hi JA
  There is a lot in those few verses that truly does make one think outside the box that JW doctrine put it in.
  Adding a bit to Brains comment below, it's also worth remembering that the Corinthian congregation was still "new" in the truth, they had come from a background of pagan worship that involved excessive partying and orgying,old habits die hard, it's easy to see how they could have the wrong view of the celebration considering their background,and as Brain said, pigging out like the old ways and days.
  A statement Paul makes in verse 30 caught my eye,after giving counsel on appropriate behaviour to the meal , he says there are those who are sick and actually dead , and I think it's literal, from " not discerning the body" . By showing lack of discernment, both in behaviour and spiritual perception, Paul seems to indicate that there is a dire result , doesn't bode well for the entire JW religion, could be why there are so many sick and depressed? Their doing exactly what Paul said not to do in verse 30, just a thought.

Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-03-15 19:26:51

Thanks for the precision insight Meleti.

I've already decided not to go this year, I have not got an invitation as of yet, maybe it's because for a whole nother year now I have not been to one meeting of any kind. I have heard that they are telling the publishers now again to move on if you can't "convert" the prospects. It seems like I had heard this about 4 yrs ago and am just now hearing it again.

Since 1919 to 2018 they have said that Christ has been set on High invisibly in the Heavens ruling the earth, but on the other hand have been trying to minimize the power of Jesus Christ in this "system of things" and gain control of it by saying it belongs to Jehovah and his organization. (Think about that when you refuse the blood and the flesh of our Lord).

I will again this year have a small ceremony amongst some dearly beloved brethren.

May the "Light of Christ's Holy Spirit" shine on all of us here and give us guidance
during this: the bounty of life or death ceremony of our Lord and only means savior.
(Ac 4:12)

Psalmbee

Comment by kyaecker on 2018-03-15 22:10:52

Great article. “Keep doing this in rememberence of me.” I’ve always been told in my congregation that this refers to the celebration of the occasion not actually partaking. Amazing isn’t it.

Comment by Joseph Anton on 2018-03-17 10:21:39

I just want to reiterate how content I've become interacting with all of you here. I find the exchanges of free thought and different perceptions on any subject heartening and find myself hopeful that one day it will be like this everywhere. I can only imagine being able to engage and learn from fellow Christians like yourselves in public, over a good meal, and it gives me something to hold onto. I do not feel this way at the congregation- and haven't for over a decade now. It's nice to discover the spark again.

Comment by Warp Speed on 2018-03-18 10:21:04

I am tempted to partake at the JW "observance" this year just to completely freak everybody out!

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-18 10:32:30

  This is the other side to the 'Go/No Go' question of attending. While some feel that attending and partaking validates the JW theology, others reason that by partaking, they are bearing witness to Christ and perhaps this will cause others to wake up and reason. Your right, though. It freaks them out. When I partook in Ecuador, they didn't know what to think. When the wine came by I had to reach out and grab it from the brother who was holding it back in fear that I was partaking "unworthily". What a hoot. The brother beside me told me after that I should have told them up front I was a partake so they would have been prepared. Just shows how far off the mark they have fallen.

  • Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-03-18 11:02:45

    You are right Meleti, they wouldn't know what to think. Considering I gave the Memorial Talk in 2017 where I told everyone to basically not partake as per the Org's Outline.
    
    Most would probably conclude that I am now "mentally diseased" (which my wife has been telling me for years now).
    
    If nothing else, it would be VERY interesting to see what happens.
    What could they really do to me?

  • Reply by James on 2018-03-30 03:04:25

    "While some feel that attending and partaking validates the JW theology..."
    
    Partaking is in obedience to Christ who we must obey than the GB, also it may help some friends to awake or know our awakening, it may also invalidate JW theology- imagine partakers numbering 149,000, how will rank and file react? How will GB react - stop publishing number of partakers or change theology? Irrespective of the outcome, partaking is for those in Christ, aka,(in union with Christ)

Comment by floss on 2018-03-18 13:02:46

Eric
I have been a reader of this site for quite a while but this is my first post. I consider myself a wandering sheep as I am begining to look at our explainations of scriptures in a new light. I agreed that all baptised christians should partake.

This particular topic is one that I find challenging but with your help a lot of it make sense.However could carify for me how the following scriptures at Luke 12: 32 and Luke 22: 28-30 applies to our understanding of who makes up the little flock at John 10.16.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-18 13:23:33

  Hi Floss and welcome.
  
  You've raised a good question.
  
  Luke 12:32-34 reads:
  
  “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
  
  At that time there was the flock of Israel to whom Jesus was sent. However, from within that flock, came a little flock of loyal disciples, which appears to be what Jesus is addressing. Then he speaks in John 10:16 of another flock which will join the flock at hand, Israel. If he is talking about gentiles in all likelihood. He couldn't say that directly, as they would have been offended and probably would have tried to stone him. So he had to couch it in metaphors.
  
  The JW idea that he's talking about anointed ones doesn't fit with the context. For one, none of those who were called "the little flock" were anointed at that point in time.
  
  As for Luke 22:28-30, we read:
  
  “You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
  
  Is Jesus only talking to his apostles, or is he talking to all the children of God? I don't really know.

  • Reply by floss on 2018-03-18 14:39:33

    Thanks for your prompt reply.
    I did reason that it could be a flock within a flock although I never heard or seen it in print. Good reasoning.
    As for who was Jesus talking to ,my thoughts is doesn't really matter if the crimmial who was put to death with Jesus will be in paradise then if we are right or wrong about some doctrine is moot once we obey all of his commandments

    • Reply by Eleasar on 2018-03-20 14:17:48

      Hi Floss and welcome.
      I think Luke 22:28-30 is probably with the apostles. Interestingly, most translations do not translate the Greek word in verse 29 as covenant. It tends to be appoint, invest etc. I am not going to open that one up here. A parallel to consider is Matthew 19:27-30. Verse 28 is specific to the 12 apostles.
      
      Luke 12 needs to be read in full. Verse 41 is Peter’s question. Then the response. This could be tied back to matthew 24 and 25. It also has resonance in 1 Corinthians 4.
      
      The pattern to me is one of the various fruits. This sits with the 3 great festivals. Passover and offering of first fruits was Jesus setting everything up. Pentecost is the calling of the bride, I.e Christians in the gospel age and Booths is for the majority of mankind in the millennium. I see the little flock as Christians in the gospel age who get to be with Jesus as his bride. It is not limited by number but by the fact that compared to the millennial reign those with Jesus are a little flock. This is made up of all nations, starting with mainly Jews at Pentecost.
      
      Now Rutherford states in 1938 that the bride calling had ended in 1932 and the harvest of the rest was to start in 1935. Hence all the confusion etc. The bible never states this for Christians. In 2007, the question from readers state that the bride calling did not end. So now we have overlapping harvests! Bottom line, we are called o be with Jesus and to be children of the father.
      
      Now the other challenge is reading matthew 24 in context and without preconceived ideas. This is tough. My reading after a long time is verse 3 is singular for the sign of his return. The answer to the question is in verse 30 where the word semieon is singular. Verses 32-35 is talking about Israel. Israel is referred to a fig tree in scripture and the word generation is mentioned in matthew 23:36. It is all to do with the destruction.
      
      Then in verse 36 it is clear that the date is know only by the Father. The rest of it up to verse 44 is to remain awake spiritually. Then we have 4 parables. The first 3 focus on qualities to stay awake. The sheep and the goats is all about being merciful. I hold with Russell’s view that this parable is in the millennium. Rutherford changed it in 1923 and since 1995 the jw understanding is the same as main stream Christianity.

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-03-18 19:06:25

    From the context, it sure sounds like he IS talking to is apostles. The question remains, does the word "only" apply? At that time, the apostles were the ones that stuck by him, even though many thousands of people followed and listened to Jesus. Then you have the day of Pentecost and the 120 in the upper room. If they were anointed as it appears they were, did they TOO "stick" with Jesus, or were they simply "other" Christians who were also faithful?
    
    To me, Jesus is in fact talking only to his apostles, but his wording does not rule out those words applying to others. For instance, his speech in John were he refers to the 'next generation' of Christians that would put faith in the words of the apostles. So there is that implication that what he says will get carried on to his future followers.
    
    As far as the significance of "little" in "little flock", recall how often John used expressions like "my little children" in his letters. It does have the sense of being a "term of endearment" which may or may not necessarily suggest a relative size in numbers of people referred to.
    
    If the apostle John saw his fellow believers as "my little children" it doesn't seem too far a stretch to imagine Jesus having the same sentiments.
    
    If so, I tend to agree with the prevailing view expressed on this site, namely, that the little flock was composed of Jews that exercised faith in Jesus (regardless of how many did so) and the other sheep were the gentiles.

    • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-03-19 06:03:14

      Hi Robert. Your concluding comments are what I also believe. The whole problem starts from having a view and then trying to fit other teachings to that view. Far better to leave a degree of flexibility and allow Christians to draw a conclusion for themselves. Time will always prove what is true. Until then we simply wait.
      This site is all about Christian freedom, and flexibility, as long as it is not wrong, is what is required for true freedom.
      
      PS
      Watch out for this week’s CLAM on the generation and Matthew 24,where we see the problems caused by being dogmatic in understanding things.

Comment by floss on 2018-03-18 15:01:48

Eric
Sorry to bother you again . what is your thoughts on Romans 8 : 23-30. especially 29-30 Does it indicate a separate class ? Maybe I am getting ideas all mix up or need more clarafiaction.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-03-18 16:22:29

  I don't believe so, though the Jews were the first to get the covenant, then the rest when the Jews failed to keep the covenant. So there are two classes or flocks, the Jews and the Gentiles, yet they get the one reward and become the one class or flock. So I think we're talking about a distinction without a difference.

Comment by Smoldering Wick on 2018-03-21 17:12:37

Since I began partaking a number of years ago, I've already plowed through the fields to be expected from family members, "So do you think you're smarter than the FDS?"

So far, I've managed to keep it simple with, "It was a personal decision." But I'm thinking of adding, "I'm only following the requirements given to the 'other sheep'"

Cheers to all

sw

Comment by wild olive on 2018-03-25 23:30:06

For me personally Joh6:53-57 says it all, that is the beginning of any other descision that a person makes in regard to partaking , did Jesus say I should , or did he intimate that I shouldn't? Do Jesus words have some other meaning ? If they do have some other ambiguous meaning , what is it? Did Jesus in any way hint that a person should not partake? If there is an alternative to his statements , what are they ,and where are they? If you can answer those questions then I think you have the answer to partaking.
On a different note, do JWs realise how precarious a position they are in without partaking? I once took this up with a brother and his answer was that Jesus is the redeemer but not the mediator of the other sheep, the problem is, how is redemption dispensed? It can only be done through the mediatorship of Jesus,so if he is only your redeemer , you still need mediatorship to be redeemed. And without mediatorship you are lost .

Comment by dani on 2019-04-22 07:36:54

The problem is that because we have been taught that all Christians in the first century were of the 144,000 (something which never even made sense to me as I could never understand how Jehovah could arbitrarily select people to rule as Kings simply based on the time period they lived in) we actually tend to believe that most of the Greek scriptures weren’t even written to us. We are in effect taught that these scriptures don’t even apply to us because we are among the great crowd. Imagine believing that parts of Gods own word are irrelevant. This really is a dangerous attitude to have.

• Reply by dc8597443 on 2019-11-30 01:38:09

  As for the 144,000, they are the 12 tribes of Israel that was scattered all over the Middle East descendants from Jacobs sons. Each descendants from his 12 sons, GOD has chosen 12,000 from each tribe to rule in heaven with Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So 12X12= 144,000 they are the anointed ones. All the rest of us are the great crowd which we all have the chance to have eternal life for those that believe in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Through Mercy and Grace and keep his commandments and to come to knowledge of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ give glory to him to rule in heaven and earth for ever and ever. John 6:40- Those that Believe in him Jesus Christ will have eternal life.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-11-30 10:05:52

    dc8597443, we appreciate your comment, but here we like to ask our commenters to either back up their statements with scripture or otherwise state that what they believe is just pure human speculation.
    
    One of the problems I see with your opinion is that even in Jesus time, the intermarriage among the 10-tribe kingdom was so great that tribal lines were blurred to the point the Jews just referred to their former brothers collectively as Samaritans. Since them those that considered themselves true Jews were scattered after the destruction of their city and intermarried to the point that no Jew can be sure which tribe of the original 13 he is from. Indeed, Jewish DNA has spread throughout the gentile population, so finding a true Jew today who is 100% from any of the 12 tribes would be well nigh impossible, and finding 144,000 of such pure-bred Jews that have renounced the law of Moses and accepted the Christ would seem too much of a stretch. Indeed, if this were to be the case, then wear are this individuals within the Christian congregation?

Comment by AnnaNana on 2022-11-03 22:54:11

"Happy are those who are hungry and thirsty for goodness, for they will be fully satisfied!"

In some ways, the issue of drinking the emblems today is similar to the issue of circumcision that faced the first century Christians.

Did circumcision make someone righteous by faith? What did Paul say?

"Does this happiness, then, only come to circumcised people or also to uncircumcised people? For we say: “Abraham’s faith was counted to him as righteousness.”  Under what circumstances, then, was it counted as righteousness? When he was circumcised or uncircumcised? He was not yet circumcised but was uncircumcised.  And he received a sign—namely, circumcision—as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, so that he might be the father of all those having faith while uncircumcised, in order for righteousness to be counted to them;  and so that he might be a father to circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had while in the uncircumcised state."

It didn't matter if Abraham was circumcised or uncircumcised. He was faithful before he was circumcised, and he continued faithful after he was circumcised. It wasn't the circumcision that made him "holy" or "righteous". It was his love for God and his obedience.

Does partaking of emblems make someone righteous? Is a person a child of God if he does or if he does not partake of the emblems? What does the Christ say about drinking and everlasting life? 

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink."

"Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life."

Is he talking about the emblems? About drinking the wine during the Memorial, or is it something else we are to drink?

"we were all made to drink one spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13)

What kind of "drink" was Paul talking about here?

"Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea  and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant the Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

Christ is the rock-mass on which our faith is built. We "drink" from him when we take in his teachings and they impart life to us when we apply them. 

When the priests were installed in ancient Israel, did all the nation partake of the emblems then? No. (Leviticus 8,9) Did the whole nation benefit from the arrangement? Yes. When two virgin people marry, do the children take part in the vows? No, there are not any children yet. Because of faith, though, in this case, the children are already in existence, and they are to be adopted, just as the "bride-to-be" was adopted already by means of Christ's blood. The marriage has to take place before the rest of the children can be completely adopted by the parents.

Drink the wine or don't drink the wine, Jehovah's not likely to zap anybody. He's just glad you're there, wherever you celebrate the Memorial. But just like circumcision wasn't necessary for everybody after the start of the Christian congregation, so drinking the wine at the Memorial isn't necessary for everybody today either. It's for direct partipants in the marriage covenant, the contract, for those who are party to that contract, namely, whoever is part of the bride. Most true Christians are not part of the bride; it's not necessary to be. Drinking the wine is not necessary to be a child of God. Drink the water from the rock-mass. Drink from the everlasting fountain of the Christ. Drink every day of his water. 

"Honor your father and your mother" is the first command with a promise: "That it may go well with you and you may remain a long time on the earth."

If a little kid came up at the marriage feast and thought they were supposed to drink from the cup for the bride or groom, would Jesus be mad? Of course not. He loves all his children. But he might tell them that it's not the best idea.

Jesus loves you. How do you view him, as your father, or as your groom-to-be? Reading Song of Solomon, does your heart quicken with desire to minister to the needs of the Lord's children in the Kingdom arrangement because you are part of his bride? Do you view your brothers also as your children because they are the children of your Lord-to-be? Are you willing to die for those children because the love you have for them pours out from your gut and wrenches your soul when you consider the tribulations they already faced and will face and you want to "gather them together the way a hen gathers her chicks"? 

All of Jehovah's children are "cut of the same cloth" at the end of the day. All of Jehovah's children, whether they will live in heaven or on earth, will have that same willingness to die for their brothers, because that's how Jehovah is. To be his children, we must be the same way. The wine doesn't matter. Drink the wine if you're part of the bride. I wouldn't recommend drinking it if you're not, but you can do as you wish. Know that the bride loves you, she is to be your mother. 

"Her gates will be open both day and night..." (as the song goes)
"on the gates were inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel..."

Your names are on her gates, just like Jehovah says He has you inscribed upon his palms. (The 12 tribes means all of Israel, all of Jehovah's worshippers, not just the 144,000.) The city is open all the time. The city comes down out of heaven to the earth. A mom is with her kids. Jerusalem above is the mother of the anointed. If you are not anointed, then New Jerusalem is your mother. New Jerusalem, she'll be here on earth, Jehovah and Jesus will be with her, will be her light and yours because you will be coming in those gates. She is a lovely mother, and she treasures all her children and just wants them to all get along. She is loyal to her husband, that's why she keeps calling you. We are a family. We all have a place in Jehovah's family. 

"And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, "Come!" and let anyone hearing say, "Come!" and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life's water free."

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.  I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

"I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is.  And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp was the Lamb.  And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.  Its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there.  And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it."

"This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding  by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth."

"And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”  And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free."

"Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God."

"You must let little children come to me - never stop them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Indeed, I assure you that the man who does not accept the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Then he took the children in his arms and laid his hands on them and blessed them."

He is blessing you. May you find peace and love and comfort in his arms and the arms of our Heavenly Father forever!

• Reply by sachanordwald on 2022-11-04 06:53:50

  Thank you for your opinion. Specifically on the different hopes, I wonder how you are going to prove them with the Bible. You tell us that Jehovah promises eternal life, but in two different places. Some may take from the symbols at the memorial meal, others may not. Where do I find this separation in the Bible? I would be very grateful for these proof texts from the Bible that prove this separation.

  • Reply by AnnaNana on 2022-11-04 14:37:00

    "At that David said: “I will show loyal love toward Haʹnun the son of Naʹhash as his father showed loyal love toward me.” So David sent his servants to offer him comfort over the loss of his father. But when David’s servants came into the land of the Amʹmon·ites,  the princes of the Amʹmon·ites said to Haʹnun their lord: “Do you think that David is honoring your father by sending comforters to you? Is it not to search through the city and to spy it out and to overthrow it that David has sent his servants to you?”  So Haʹnun took the servants of David and shaved off half their beards and cut their garments in half at their buttocks and sent them away.  When David was told, he at once sent men to meet them, because the men had been deeply humiliated; and the king told them: “Stay in Jerʹi·cho until your beards grow back, and then return.”"
    
    (Sometimes undeserved kindness and mercy are misunderstood.)
    
    "my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom." 
    
    Jehovah made a covenant with Jesus for a kingdom. Are you or am I any part of that private covenant between Jehovah and Jesus? No. No, we are not. That covenant is between Jehovah and Jesus alone.
    
    "I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom." 
    
    Jesus was talking to the apostles here. He wasn't talking to Moses or Elijah of old or David or Sarah or anyone faithful from the past, because they were not parties to that covenant. (Of course, they were asleep in death, but obviously they were also faithful ones, and they didn't have to partake in order to be recognized as faithful. Paul includes them in faithful ones in his account at Hebrews 11.) The verses in Revelation about the 144,000 and the work they are to do in heaven is clear. Jesus' words about the work of those in the kingdom as described in the gospels is clear. I know you have read them many times, the ones about sitting on throes and judging the 12 tribes, etc. The apostles and other members of the kingdom government are one group, those doing the judging. The 12 tribes are another group, those being judged. Two groups. The judges will sit in heaven. Those judged are on the earth. All are called "Israel" and are faithful children and are beloved of God.
    
    What is a "kingdom" anyway? The Bible shows it is a government with a king and associates. There was no need for a kingdom prior to the rebellion in Eden, because the family arrangement was sufficient. Human kids directly interacted with their Father, Jehovah. That is how it will be again. Humans weren't meant to live in heaven. The kingdom arrangement is a means to an end, the end being peace and the earthly family reunited with God, with most faithful humans here on earth. A few humans will be transformed to a new creation to be part of the kingdom arrangement which, again, is temporary.
    
    There are many Bible scriptures that show in ancient times, the kingly line was eventually promised not to the whole house of Israel, but to Judah. Similarly, the priestly line was not to all of the nation of Israel, but just to Levi. Was it because of Levi's superior faith? No. Levi was a murderer. Was it because of Judah's superior integrity? No. Judah was among the brothers who sold Joseph to Egypt and then covered up the matter. Why did Levi and Judah get the promises? "So that no flesh may boast." Did those promises to Levi and Judah negate the value of the rest of the Israelites? No, of course not. How many of those faithful ones listed in Hebrews 11 were from prior to Israel's existence or from tribes other than Levi or Judah? The faithful ones listed were not all direct parties to the covenants, were they? We don't need to be part of a covenant to be special to Jehovah, or to be Jehovah's beloved children.
    
    Those covenants or promises from the past for a kingdom or for a priestly line were with a portion of Jehovah's worshippers and for the benefit of the entire nation. A covenant, by nature, may include either one or many people but it is the creator of the covenant who decides how many are included. That is the pattern for the kingdom covenant. Jehovah hasn't changed.
    
    "I write you these things about those who are trying to mislead you.  And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but the anointing from him is teaching you about all things and is true and is no lie. Just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.  So now, little children, remain in union with him, so that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not shrink away from him in shame at his presence.  If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him."
    
    If you are anointed, then you don't need me to explain these things to you. If you are in a covenant relationship with Jesus to be "married" to him by means of the kingdom and you have already been adopted as one of Jehovah's children, you don't need me to tell you any scriptures. Drink your wine.
    
    "So the messenger who went to call Mi·caiʹah said to him: “Look! The words of the prophets are unanimously favorable to the king. Let your word, please, become like their words, and speak favorably.”  But Mi·caiʹah said: “As surely as Jehovah is living, whatever Jehovah says to me is what I will speak.”  Then he came in to the king, and the king asked him: “Mi·caiʹah, should we go to war against Raʹmoth-gilʹe·ad, or should we refrain?” At once he replied: “Go up and you will be successful; Jehovah will give it into the king’s hand.”"
    
    "When the sons of the prophets at Jerʹi·cho saw him from a distance, they said: “The spirit of E·liʹjah has settled down on E·liʹsha.” So they went to meet him and bowed down to the ground before him.  They said to him: “Here are 50 capable men with your servants. Let them go, please, to look for your master. Perhaps the spirit of Jehovah has lifted him up and then thrown him on one of the mountains or in one of the valleys.” But he said: “Do not send them.”  However, they kept urging him until he was embarrassed, so he said: “Send them.” They sent the 50 men, who kept looking for three days but did not find him.  When they returned to him, he was staying in Jerʹi·cho. Then he said to them: “Did I not tell you not to go?”"
    
    "Then Jehovah’s angel said to him: “Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? Look! I myself came out to offer resistance, because your way is in defiance of my will.  The donkey saw me and tried to turn away from me these three times. Supposing it had not turned away from me! By now I would have killed you and let the donkey live.”  Baʹlaam said to Jehovah’s angel: “I have sinned, because I did not know that it was you standing in the road to meet me. And now if it is bad in your eyes, I will go back.”  But Jehovah’s angel said to Baʹlaam: “Go with the men, but you may speak only the words that I tell you.” So Baʹlaam continued going with the princes of Baʹlak."
    
    "But his disciples asked him what this illustration meant.  He said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations so that, though looking, they may look in vain, and though hearing, they may not get the sense."
    
    Many men stood up to claim the priesthood in the days of Korah. Why? Jealousy and covetousness. It is no small thing to be one of Jehovah's earthly children. What is Aaron? What is a king or a priest? All of God's children are beloved of Jehovah. If you are anointed, then partake. If you are not, show respect for the boundaries Jehovah has drawn in the family. Reuben went up to his father's bed, and it didn't go well for him. That was a boundary he shouldn't have crossed. It was improper. Satan is demanding to have all of us to sift us like wheat. Please be careful, brothers. If you are anointed, then partake. But if you are not, you would be wise to be content with whatever portion Jehovah gives you. There is enough sunshine for everyone. Covetousness is what led Satan to fall in the first place.
    
    "Listen, please, you sons of Leʹvi.  Does it seem to you such a little thing that the God of Israel has separated you from the assembly of Israel and allowed you to approach him in order to perform the service of Jehovah’s tabernacle and to stand before the assembly to minister to them,  and that he brought you near to him along with all your brothers, the sons of Leʹvi? Must you also try to secure the priesthood?  For this reason, you and all your supporters who are gathering together are against Jehovah. As for Aaron, who is he that you should murmur against him?"
    
    Those who Jehovah loves, he disciplines. Jehovah loves you. Please don't reject his love. Covetousness is a form of idolatry.
    
    "Little children, keep yourselves from idols."

    • Reply by sachanordwald on 2022-11-05 04:07:51

      Thank you very much for your answer. I was interested to know what you think about this. I read that you have not been able to provide any biblical evidence that Christians have different hopes. There is only one Christian hope. This is also in line with my biblical understanding, for which I am very grateful to Jehovah.
      
      The words of Colossians 1:3-5 apply to all Christians: "We give thanks always to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you. 4 For we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints, 5 because you hope in what is stored up for you in heaven. Of this hope you heard before, when the truth of the good news was made known to you,"
      
      Receive my warm greetings
      Sacha

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-11-05 09:00:18

        The belief in a secondary salvation hope is the brainchild (if you can call that abortion of antitypical mayhem, a child) of J.F. Rutherford. I go into detail in chapter 10 of my book: Shutting the Door to the Kingdom of God: How Watch Tower Stole Salvation from Jehovah's Witnesses.
        Shutting the Door to the Kingdom of God: How Watch Tower Stole Salvation from Jehovah’s Witnesses: Wilson, Eric Michael: 9781778143052: Amazon.com: Books

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-11-05 09:26:23

  AnnaNana, it would be helpful if you were to state the premise of your argument at the start of one of your long comments. Do you believe that only some Christians are offered the reward of the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 while the rest are offered an earthly hope as humans working toward perfection in a paradise earth as Witnesses teach?