- Who is Jesus referring to at Matthew 24:33?
- Does the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21 have a secondary fulfillment
In our previous article, This Generation – A Modern-Day Fulfillment, we found that the only conclusion that was consistent with the evidence was that Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:34 applied only to a first century fulfillment. However, for us to be truly content that this application is accurate, we must be assured that it harmonizes with all relevant texts.
That said, there are two texts that appear to cause us problems: Matthew 24:21 and 33.
However, we will not follow the pattern of the publications of the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society. That is to say, we will not require the reader to make unfounded assumptions, such as creating a dual-fulfillment scenario where some parts of the prophecy are fulfilled in a so-called minor fulfillment, while other parts correspond only to a later, major fulfillment.
No, we must find our answers in the Bible, not in the conjecture of men.
Let us begin with Matthew 24:33.
Who Is Near at the Doors?
We will start by reviewing the immediate context of verse 33:
“Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.” (Mt 24:32-35)
Most of us, if we come from a JW background, will jump to the conclusion that Jesus is speaking of himself in the third person. The cross reference the NWT gives for this verse certainly supports the conclusion.
This creates a problem however, because Jesus didn’t appear at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. In fact, he has yet to return. This is where the Watchtower’s dual-fulfillment scenario was born. However, a dual fulfillment cannot be the answer. For the past 140 years since the days of C.T. Russell down till now, we have tried over and over to make this work. The latest effort of the Governing Body is the stretched-beyond-all-credulity overlapping generations doctrine. How often do we have to cobble together a new understanding before we get the message we are on the wrong track?
Remember, Jesus is the Master Teacher and Matthew 24:33-35 is his reassurance to his disciples. What kind of a teacher would he be if the assurance was so couched in obscurity that none could figure it out? The fact is, it is all quite simple and obvious and all the clues are in the text. It is men with their own agendas who have introduced all the confusion.
Before talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus alluded to Daniel the prophet with the warning words: “Let the reader use discernment.”
If you were listening to his words back then, what would have been the first thing you would have done when the opportunity presented itself? You would likely have gone to the synagogue where the scrolls were kept and looked up Daniel’s prophecy. If so, this is what you would have found:
“And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations….And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.” (Da 9:26, 27)
Now compare the relevant part of Matthew:
“Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment),” (Mt 24:15)
Jesus’ “disgusting thing that causes desolation” is Daniel’s “leader who is coming…the one causing desolation.”
Given the exhortation that the reader (us) should use discernment in this application of Daniel’s words, is it not reasonable that the “he” who was near at the doors would be this one, the leader of a people?
That clearly fits with the facts of history and does not require us to jump through any speculative hoops. It just fits.
An Alternative to “he”
One alert reader in a comment pointed out that many translations render this verse with the gender neutral pronoun “it”. This is the rendering the King James Bible gives. According to the Interlinear bible, estin, should be rendered “it is”. Therefore, an argument could be made that Jesus was saying that when you see these signs, know that “it”—the destruction of the city and the temple—is near at the doors.
Whichever rendering turns out to be the most faithful to Jesus’ words, both support the idea of the nearness of the City’s end being apparent by the visible signs for all to see.
We must be wary of allowing personal bias to creep in causing us to ignore Bible harmony in favor of personal belief, such as evidently happened for the translators of the New Living Translation: “In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door”; and the International Standard Version: “In the same way, when you see all these things, you’ll know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.
What Is the Great Tribulation?
Do you see what I’ve just done there? I’ve introduced an idea that is not in the text of Matthew 24:21. How? By simply using the definite article. “The Great Tribulation” is different from a great tribulation, is it not? Jesus doesn’t use the definite article at Matthew 24:21. To illustrate how critical this is, consider that the war of 1914-1918 was called “The Great War”, because there had never been another like it. We didn’t call it World War I back then; not till there was a second one even greater. Then we started to number them. It was not longer The Great War. It was just a great war.
The only difficulty that arises with Jesus’ words, “for then there will be great tribulation”, comes when we try to link it with Revelation 7:13, 14. But is there any real basis for that?
The phrase “great tribulation” only occurs four times in the Christian Scriptures:
“for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Mt 24:21)
“But a famine came upon the whole of Egypt and Caʹnaan, even a great tribulation; and our forefathers were not finding any provisions.” (Ac 7:11)
“Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.” (Re 2:22)
“And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Re 7:13, 14)
It is self-evident that its use in Acts 7:11 and Re 2:22 bears no relation at all to its application in Mt 24:21. So what about its use at Re 7:13, 14? Are Mt 24:21 and Re 7:13, 14 linked? John’s vision or Revelation occurred long after a great tribulation that came upon the Jews. He speaks of those who are yet to come out of a time of tribulation, not those who already did, as was the case with the Christians who escaped in 66 C.E.
John’s vision is not of “great tribulation” as used at Mt 24:21 and Re 2:22, nor is it of “a great tribulation” as recorded at Acts 7:11. It is “the great tribulation.” The use of the definite article is only found here and imparts the idea of a uniqueness attached to this tribulation separating it from all the others.
Therefore, there is no basis for linking it to the tribulation that came upon the city in 66 C.E., the one that was cut short. Doing so, creates a long list of irreconcilable complications. First of all, we must accept that Jesus’ words had a dual fulfillment. There is no Bible basis for this and we get into the murky waters of types and antitypes again. For example, we then have to find a secondary fulfillment for the destruction of Jerusalem, and another for the generation. Of course, Jesus only returns once, so how do we explain Mt 24:29-31? Do we say there is no secondary fulfillment for those words? Now we’re cherry picking what is dual fulfillment and what is one time only. It is a dog’s breakfast which, frankly, the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses has created for itself. Confounding matters further is the recent admission that types and antitypes (which a dual fulfillment clearly comprises) which are not explicitly applied in Scripture (which this is not) are to be rejected as—to quote David Splane—“going beyond the things written”. (2014 Annual Meeting Discourse.)
If we are committed to avoiding the errors of the past, we must conclude that the weight of historical and Scriptural evidence leads to the conclusion that Jesus’ reference to “great tribulation” applies only to the events surrounding and involving the destruction of the temple, the city, and the Jewish system of things.
Something Still Pending
While it seems that all the loose ends relating to our application of Mt 24:34 have been tied up in a way that does not conflict with Scripture nor involve wild speculation, some serious questions remain. The answer to these in no way affects our conclusion regarding the identification of “this generation.” However, they are questions that beg for clarification.
These are:
- Why did Jesus refer to the tribulation that befell Jerusalem as the greatest of all time? Surely the flood of Noah’s day, or Armageddon did or will surpass it.
- What is the great tribulation that the angel spoke of to the apostle John?
For a consideration of these questions, please read Trials and Tribulations.
Could it be that “this generation” in the first century started in 2 BCE and anded in 70 CE? Lasting 71 years? “This generation” today if it started in 1914 is already some 104 years long! How appropriate! about 33 years longer than in the 1st century, considering the number of people being involved both before and now!
All we can day for sure is that those alive when Jesus preached and when Jerusalem fell were part of the generation he referred to at Mt. 24:34. However, I do not see any evidence for a secondary fulfillment in our day.
I respect your point of view. But, please answer in all honesty: just because you do not see the evidence, does that mean that nobody else can see it and explain?
[…] Pickets – Archive, examining the meaning of “this generation” (vs. 34), determining who the “he” is in vs. 33, breaking down the three-part question of vs. 3, demonstrating that the so-called signs of verses […]
[…] What is the great tribulation and how and when are, or were, the days to be cut short? We will attempt to tackle those questions in the next article titled, This Generation – Tying Up Loose Ends. […]
You may recall a few months ago on JW Broadcast brother Splane went to great lengths to explain the current JW understanding of “this generation”. He gave the following example. ‘If a person dies 10 minutes before another is born, then they are not contemporaries. Or putting it the other way if a person is born 10 minutes after a person dies, again they are not contemporaries.’ The implication being, they are not contemporaries because their lives did not overlap. If we accept this reasoning then, logically the opposite must also be true. If a person is born 10 minutes… Read more »
The Governing Body’s overlapping generation is so weak, so full of holes, they will continue to reinforce and reinforce, until that time comes when this teaching MUST be let go.
Joshua
On JW broadcasting brother Kenneth Flodin called brother Splane’s overlapping generation talk “masterful”.
I felt sorrow for brother Flodin. So many years in Jehovah’s service only to find oneself having to pledge allegiance to men is, in my opinion, pitiable.
Joshua
It would have to be masterful . To explain such an Artfully contrived story as peter would have called it .
I’m not sure whether I would feel sorry for this guy. After all nobody at that level of the organisation can be that stupid, surely? I believe many of the top tier brothers see the inconsistencies, but they lead very cushy lives, they are adored by one and all, they really have to much to lose. Where else would they enjoy all that adulation and be kept by the hard earned money of others. It’s the classic case of not rocking the boat because there is to much at stake personally for these men. This only makes them all the… Read more »
Personally I think it’s only a matter of time before they claim that the FDS was actually appointed in 2012 as per their “new light” at the 2012 AGM. Maybe they could start “this generation” from then too and reset everything, but I don’t want to give them too many ideas! They could distance themselves from everything published prior to 2012 at the same time, such as the “apostate” teaching in the March 1st 1981 Watchtower (page 24) that the “slave pictures only the leading ones” aka GB. Wouldn’t that be a convenient flash of light?
The teaching of 1914 is interesting for a number of reasons. Firstly, no one else in the world believes 607 BCE is the date for the destruction of Jerusalem. Second, we have to believe that Satan, the accuser of our brothers day and night, was allowed in heaven for an extra 1800 odd years after Jesus had already proved his obedience to God. Thirdly, the “birth” of the Kingdom coincided with a heap of human bloodshed in World War 1, which is hardly “good news”. Fourth, when the Kingdom was preached by Jesus as being “at hand”, it actually wasn’t… Read more »
There is no doubt that the Society’s leadership was overconfident, too sure. They expected the end to come in their lifetime and thought themselves blessed with insight greater than their Trinatarian peers.
And so, they attempted to apply every prophecy to themselves and their time. A mistake better seen in hindsight.
Joshua
Nice! ?
Meleti, From my research, I have yet to find any support for the GB’s “generation” teaching in any scholarly work. I think it’s fair to say this teaching is “outside” the realm of biblical possibilities. It can exist only in the minds of those loyal to JW Broadcasting and WT publications. Do we blame such a teaching on “ignorance?” The religious leaders of the Pharisees and Sadducees were ignorant. (Acts 3:17) Interestingly, the greek word translated “ignorance” (agnoia) in Acts 3:17 also carries the idea of “willful” blindness, or “willful” ignorance. This adds clarity, as it is often the case… Read more »
ANSWER: Although 1st century Christians were called out of worldly darkness into the wonderful light of truth there were many things, particularly matters related to prophecy and the second coming of Christ, that they did not understand. In fact, their unenlightened condition was the reason Paul and the others wrote them letters of counsel, which letters now comprise what we call the Greek Scriptures. But even at that, in his letter to the Corinthians Paul said that until the coming of Christ we can only see in a “hazy outline,” as if peering at a metal mirror. So, being called… Read more »
Joshua, was the above your reply?
Just wondering.
Excellent post my brother.
Sopater
No, brother, that was not my post.
Joshua
Anon, In further reading posts, I see that you are not Joshua. I re-read your post, and I agree that specifically on misinterpretation of prophecy they could be viewed as senseless. But in 4 items I mentioned, none apply to mistaken interpretation of prophecy. Items #1 and #2 deal with using the erroneous 607 BCE date. This is an intentional rejection of secular and sound, widely accept historical evidence. I see this as more than senseless. They cling to this myth to support flawed doctrine. #3 The no blood teaching relies upon the erroneous premise that a blood transfusion is… Read more »
Please keep in mind there is a wicked slave and a faithful slave and they are both present up until the judgment when Jesus comes in is authentic pariousia. ‘Prior to the July, 2013, Watchtower, Jehovah’s Witnesses believed that the slave had been appointed over all the master’s belongings and an evil slave was put out of God’s spiritual house back in 1918. Now, though, the Society teaches that the master comes in the future and the appointment of the slave over all his master’s belongings has to do with the chosen ones receiving their heavenly reward. This is the… Read more »
Actually there is only one slave mentioned in the parable of the faithful and discreet slave.
The slave is pronounced either faithful or wicked upon his master’s return.
The slave is given an assignment to carry out during his master’s absence. When his master returns and evaluates the slave’s performance of his duties, then and only then does he pronounce him faithful or wicked.
The account is quite clear on this.
It “s a parable, not.a.prophecy….a lesson not a true event.
It is a parable, but there is much in scripture to suggest it has a very real application.
If there is a faithful slave that would certainly imply there is a wicked slave. A son of destruction like Judas Iscariot Luke 22:3-4. Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked* will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him… Read more »
You missed the point entirely. With reference to the parable of the faithful and discreet slave of Matthew 24 and Luke 12, there is only one slave. Different scenarios are presented depending on how the master judges the slave’s conduct during his absence, once he returns the master makes his assessment. As for the parables of the talents, the minas, the virgins etc, there is no argument, multiple slaves are involved and clearly some act wisely and others wickedly. However, with specific reference to the parable of the faithful and discreet slave, only one slave is involved. A different scenario… Read more »
It’s about the big picture ,the overall projection of the scriptures on a whole, however it appears no matter what I say you obviously want to be found right, so be it.
But a physical man does not accept* the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 1 Corinthians 2:14.
However thank you for the conversation and may you be in peace.
Dear brother,
It’s not about being right. It’s about getting it right. Technically your statement was incorrect. That is all I was trying to point out. If we make a point we should endeavour to be precise, for the sake of the reader.
Your comments suggest you don’t like any kind of correction. That’s fine I will not make any further comment on your remarks. But if two people can’t have an exchange of ideas without one of them taking it personally, then I really must wonder who the physical man is.
All the best.
We have to be very careful evaluating each other’s statements as accurate or inaccurate when there is so little to go by. You are each providing snippets of insight which are correct if taken one way and incorrect if taken another. This is where we should give each one the benefit of the doubt and not make a summary judgment. Is the account of the faithful slave in Matthew and Luke a parable? Yes. But does it deal with true events? A parable is a form of illustration. Jesus used them sometimes to explain more easily a difficult truth, and… Read more »
Meleti, Well said brother, I concur with you thoughts and may I add: From among his house servants (slaves), the master appointed one “steward” to be manager of the kitchen and dining room. The managing steward would be evaluated at the CONCLUSION of his assignment, NOT at the beginning. At the time the slave was selected by the master to be steward, the slave was no doubt faithful and stood out from the other house servants. This seems only logical. (in actuality the apostles and early disciples certainly fit this description) But…… the slave had not yet proven himself faithful… Read more »
Although being many the 144,000 makeup The Composite slave.
Revelation 7:4
12 For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ.
14 For, indeed, the body is made up not of one member but of many.
19 If they were all the same member, where would the body be?
20 But now they are many members, yet one body. /[ SLAVE]
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you individually is a member. 1Corinthians:
Whether the slave is composite is not the issue here. The slave of Matt. 24 and Luke 12 is one entity. Perhaps that is a clearer way of putting it.
Incidentally, the slave mentioned in Matt. 24 and Luke 12 is not the 144000 according to the current teaching of the WT. The salve is only the 7 men currently serving on the GB.
This illustrates the need to be precise with our wording.
In the interest of being precise, I’ll correct myself. I forgot to mention that according to current WT teaching the FDS is all the members of the governing body since 1919. Hence, not even Russell is considered part of the FDS.
Technically, the GB as an entity was established in the mid 1970’s. Prior to this there was no GB as such. It does however, include all those who were filling a similar role from 1919 onward.
Many are called – as the slave – but few (144,000) is choosen. The slave splits into fathful and unfaithful ones, wheat vs weeds, virgins vs prostitutes, during the sifting by satan…which of course started in the first century. Matt 7:13, 14, 17-19; 13:30. Luke 22:31 ‘each one of you’ . Rev 14:14-20 These called ones should during their lifetime be surching for truth and become footstepfollowers of the anointed Jesus, not leaders of any institutions. Matt 20:23, 27; Luke 9:23, 24; ; 1Cor 4:2; 15:34; Rom 1:25, 28; Rev 6:9-11.Matt 18:7.They should slave for each other, being members of… Read more »
ANTONINVS,
I share your view, that is, one steward and he’s identified as faithful or wicked when the master returns. In that centuries are involved it would seem to be a collective group of Christians that are used in leadership roles over time.
Sopater
Thanks Sopater, Just to clarify. I was not focusing on the composite nature of the slave. My focus was purely on the wording of Matthew and Luke that only speak of one slave. Whether the slave is composite is an entirely seperate issue, one I did not touch on. I agree that the slave is composite, but it is however one entity, not multiple slaves (some good, others bad) as advanced by others in earlier comments. That was the only point I was trying to get across throughout my remarks. Having said that the current teaching of the WT does… Read more »
ANTONINVS, Yes I agree a composite and one entity. What arrogance to claim that the master went away for nearly 1900 years, then at that late date appoints the slave as steward? As I’ve said, who was managing the kitchen and dining room for 1900 years? Did not Peter ask, “Lord are you addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?” Jesus didn’t answer Peter saying….. oh yes Peter, go and gather up everyone else, they are all involved. Rather, he finished the parable to just those present. To presume and then publicize that the master picked… Read more »
Hi Sopater,
It is quite unbelievable how these men have set themselves up.
The GB is at the lowest level it has ever been. There is not one scholarly mind among them or their helpers.
We are constantly being fed milk. The same themes are repeated over and one again. There is nothing fresh. I honestly can’t remember the last time I learnt something new at the meeting, something I heard for the first time, and said to myself, wow! that was a good point!
The Society’s current FDS teaching is wrong, plain and simple.
The current Governing Body (and their Helpers) continually praise the doings of the GB. I find it galling when they praise themselves by stepping on the heads of their predecessors, putting down or almost ridiculing what came before.
But that is enough from me on that subject.
Joshua
Joshua, The former understanding left it “plausible” to believe the anointed from the first century forward could all be part of the FDS (the 144,000). But then, the remnant number kept growing (not declining) and they didn’t consult with those partaking anyway, They didn’t know their names, nor did they care to know them. So how could they be FDS? The new understanding (that the FDS didn’t exist until 1919) leaves no one managing the kitchen for over 1,900 years. Who took care of feeding first century Christians? This teaching is so bold as to remove the Apostles from that… Read more »
Hi Sopater,
The problem has been that since the inception of group rule in the Organization, the Governing Body actually governing, chaos has progressively increased to the point that today the GB appears to be unable to function.
Joshua
Anon, My understanding of Matt 24:45-47 and Luke 12:41-44 continues to be refined, but the following is my best guess at this time: What has helped me to understand this parable is to first visualize a large house (like a southern plantation) that has a number of house servants (slaves). From within the group, the master (owner) selects a lead slave to manage the kitchen and dining room used to provide meals for house servants. His assignment is to make certain food rations are provided in a timely fashion, three healthy meals a day. Bear in mind, the steward is… Read more »
I enjoyed the article. But I did notice a lack of references. It is one thing to make statements, it is another thing to prove them. I would like to see proof that’s all I’m saying.
Hi Jill,
I’m not sure what you are referring to specifically. Which points do you feel lack references?
Sorry what I meant was you don’t use any outside sources to back up your conclusions. It would be nice to see such an important subject well supported.
I understand now. But then who would I use? Some scholar that happens to agree with me. There are scholars who would disagree with me as well. So I would have to pick and choose my scholars. And what would be my basis for accepting this one and rejecting that one? Then I would be like the Scribes who spoke without authority, always referring to some previous learned man. Our Lord taught us otherwise: “…And they became astounded at his way of teaching, for there he was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.” (Mr 1:22)… Read more »
I understand but then we only have your interpretation of what the bible says. Wouldn’t that be like saying I don’t need anybody else I can work it out for myself and you can take what I’m saying as being right.
No, you don’t want to trust my interpretation. Then you are just following men again. You don’t want to take the interpretation of anyone. A human can help you understand something, but you must read the Bible for yourself and make sure that what the human is saying is correct. Read and analyze the Bible. I’m not saying that a human can’t help. My understanding of the role of women came because I read someone else’s treatise on the subject and learned some facts I didn’t know. But those are facts, not interpretation. For example, in my article I revealed… Read more »
I appreciate this alternate perspective, thank you Meleti. My personal view is that the society is not far off the mark. I believe we ARE living in the last days of this system of things and that the great tribulation of Matthew 24 is still ahead of us. Dual fulfillment makes sense to me, even Jesus used events long in the past as a comparison, a model, the days of Noah being an example of Jesus applying an ancient event to his day. So too today we can find alignments with Jesus prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem with the… Read more »
Join the discussionThe Watchtower has been the source of a deluding influence, first over the so-called Bible Students, and now over Jehovah’s Witnesses. There is no possible way to break the grip it has on the minds of the many for the reason that it is “an operation of Satan” that Jehovah himself has allowed. What is the purpose of it? The apostle explains: “That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took… Read more »
Hi Anonymous,
May you have peace.
Every Christian has much to learn and to repent over, myself included.
If you love God we are brothers.
If you love Christ we are brothers.
If you love your neighbor we are brothers.
If you love truth we are brothers.
Your sincere efforts to grasp truth, to see beyond the mist of mans’ religious rule which always results in dishonoring God, is the beginning of a life closer to God and Christ.
You have made the jump out of your JW religion and kept your faith!
Congratulations.
Your brother,
Joshua
Hi Joshua
The error that many people make is to refer to a dual fulfilment. The first fulfilment having taken place in the first century the second yet to take place in the future.
This somewhat muddies the waters. There are not two fulfilments, one minor, and the other major. This terminology is very imprecise.
It is better and more accurately expressed as follows:
The first century Jews partially experienced, what is in effect an ongoing fulfilment yet to be brought to its terminus in the future.
This more accurately expresses the concept.
All the best.
Hi Joshua, When I began to study, I too thought that we were only a little off the mark. As the months turned into years, I came to see that with regard to “the times and the seasons” we are just about wrong about everything. For example, dual fulfillment is based on creating an antitypical relationship that doesn’t exist in the Bible. True, Jesus created one with regard to Noah’s day, but we are not Jesus and therefore have no right to create typical/antitypical relationships not found in Scripture. This isn’t only my view but is the official view of… Read more »
Yes i agree . Just thinking about this anti typical fullfillment where jesus said as in noahs day so the coming of the son of man will be . To me it was only a simple comparison jesus was making the point being that A ) either people took no note , or b ) they did not know . They just carried on as normal until the day came upon them . Like i say why use these terms of dual fullfillment ect . When it was just a simple lesson from history . Peter made the same point… Read more »
Thank you for the response Meleti. The current Governing Body has made many changes some good but many not so good. They appear to believe today’s Witnesses are not capable of absorbing deep material or do not need to. We are being starved to death while an endless stream of vacuous but smartly presented videos lull us to sleep. I disagreed with their decision to remove almost all prophetic patterns or types not obviously found in the Bible. I do not believe 1914 marked Christ’s invisible presence but I do believe the first world war did mark a significant change,… Read more »
You make a good point. I too believe we are near something. The population growth, by many estimates, will reach critical levels within the next 50 years. However, I also am mindful that “at a time we think it not to be, the Son of Man is coming.”
I absolutely agree, Meleti.
Joshua
Hi Joshua, I would not be quick to dismiss a generation, age or eon that spans centuries. It is a line of reasoning well worth considering it fits very well. Numerous bible translations use the word age instead of generation to convey more accurately the idea of a time span. It is a period of time characterized by something in particular. Much the same as we might refer to the Bronze Age, or Iron Age. In this case it is an age of perverse society. You can check these translations for yourself on Biblehub or one of the many sites… Read more »
Hi again Joshua, A number of sources you may find helpful. There are many others of course but time and circumstance do not permit listing them all here. “(Gk genea) This is traditionally rendered “generation” in Matt. 24:34, Mark 13:30. And Luke 21:32. However, based on the Hebrew word dor as meaning “age”, the meaning of the Greek word genea as used by Jesus concerns a class of people – a set of humanity with common characteristics – generally a perverse society. ” KGV p. 488 According to The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words p. 244, “Lk. understood… Read more »
ANTONINVS,
I had understood that you were going to shelve this discussion until you’ve had the opportunity to attempt to prove your point in the DiscussTheTruth forum. Since I’ve gone to great lengths to prove my point in a series of article it is discourteous to say the least to enter here as a guest and promote a different view without first showing how the prevailing understanding is wrong. Most sites would not give you the opportunity to do that, but ours will, if you can just be patient while we set up the forum.
Meleti
Hi Meleti, You understood correctly. So, I will make one final comment because the impression you gave Jason regarding Biblehub search on generation is not strictly correct. If research is done on a superficial level then yes generation at first glance appears to be the word most bibles use. Deeper research in the varies notes and commentaries gives an amplified view. Just one example, the much respected NET Bible in its notes on Matt. 24:34 states: “This is one of the hardest versus in the Gospels to interpret. Various views exist for what generation means. (1)! Some take it as… Read more »
If you wish to play by the rules, then why do you raise a new point? You leave me with two options: 1) Answer the point to show the flaw in your reasoning. But that just extends the thread inviting yet another response from you. 2) Say nothing so that the thread does not continue and leave the point unaddressed and by silence, concede it.
I agree that the Greek word often translated as generation can also mean race, family, age etc. The context or objective will need to be taken into account to determine a translation that justify the meaning of the speaker [Jesus] , the audience and objective. If I follow that approach, I believe Jesus was addressing the generation or people alive at that time. Any othrr view would mean Jesus was addressing his audience with a message that was not relevant to them. I cannot believe Jesus would even consider that approach : addressing a crowd with a message that is… Read more »
Hi Antoninvs, I appreciate the information, brother. I believe we have the concrete historical precedent that Jesus meant a literal generation because those who heard him speak were among those who witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem’s Temple. So, in my opinion, that precedent dictates the general time period Jesus was referring to. Obviously, we cannot yet identify that generation (that is,if we believe there is a second fulfillment or application) nor should we attempt to do so. When God reveals it we will, in my opinion, all know just as lightening in the night sky cannot be hidden, we will… Read more »
Joshua,
If you go to Biblehub.com and enter Mt 24:34, you’ll find that all the Bible translations render it “generation” not “age, epoch, or era”. If you then scan every reference in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures of the word “generation” and consider whether the context supports the contention that the word means “age or era” rather than a group of contemporaries living at the same time, you’ll arrive at a simple conclusion. Perhaps, in rare instances, it can mean “age” but that hardly justifies ignoring the context and the scriptural harmony.
Thanks Meleti.
Joshua
Joshua, Just to add my perspective: Luke 23:34 says: “Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.” Jesus was referring specifically to the Roman soldiers at the crucifixion , but also to all the Jewish religious leaders and sects of the Jewish religion that mocked and blasphemed him. Acts 3:17 says: “Now fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.” 1 Cor 2:8 adds: “None of the rulers of this age (aion) has understood, for if they understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” The Pharisees did… Read more »
Good morning, Sopater.
We are in agreement brother.
With the exception of all unbelievers being destroyed at Armageddon, I agree with your well stated post.
Joshua
For those who subscribe to the dual fulfillment way of looking at prophecy, do we have an example of this in the Bible? An example One prophecy in the Bible fulfilled in two different ways in two entirely different eras of time,with two entirely groups of people involved? What reason do we have for examining prophecy this way?
Why are we hijacking already fulfilled Jewish prophecies and applying them to Gentile Christians?
Godswordistruth, The Bible is filled with many prophetic parallels, people and events that have such close similarities they are identified with one another or give a punch in clarification. Elijah being one, in function at least, who reappears both in the first century and Revelation. Dual applications, prophetic parallels, are not a Witness or Bible Student invention. Christians have sought understanding of the times through second applications since Christianity began. The Bible itself sets the precedent for this. Prophetic parallels of separate events and individuals is the way the Bible teaches. A stream of events in the Hebrew scriptures had… Read more »
Luke 13 is interesting meleti when compared to your thoughts on the verses in matthew 24 v32 jesus says learn the lesson from the fig tree . We know that jesus cursed the fig tree on his way to jerusalem . For it had no fruit . But he says learn from the parable of the fruit tree this parable is at luke 13 and the tree itself seems to me to be refering to jerusalem and its people who lacked godly fruit .
An interesting insight. Thank you.
Although a lesson contained in the verse is about what happens to a tree in autumn using it as a sign .
It’s an excellent insight thank you…..
The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 3:10.
And the same rule of thumb will apply it to the watchtower.
After his ouster from heaven the maddened Devil will then be allowed an interval of time equivalent to the duration of the earthly ministry of Christ, during which time he will use his revived earthly political beast to terrorize the world into total submission, with the express intent of causing the chosen ones to betray their Lord. Did not Jesus foretell that men would become faint with fright in dread and foreboding during the dark night of the conclusion and that no flesh would even survive the ordeal unless God would cut the tribulation short? the wild beast of revelation… Read more »
more wonderful insight thank you……
I just wanted to add to my last comment. Although I am open minded, I firmly believe this is what Jesus was talking about. It maintains the simplicity of what “generation” means. In addition, it really makes sense that the people experiencing all this unnatural trauma would not pass away. I will not repeat what I said in my last comment, but I do believe the pieces fit. I have told people this for years. But only since I read this article did I decide to research what others have said, and if they understand it the way I do.… Read more »
The Watchtower has always struggled with this generation stuff. This one scripture has been the basis for how people lived. The meaning of it always changing to the point that explaining it in a Watchtower was meaningless to me. Prior to 1993, I personally was getting concerned about the generation of 1914. I was so concerned that I sent a letter to the society asking if this doctrine will change. My motive was good. I didn’t want people in the “world” to view us as fools. During the mass “remodeling” of Luke 21, Matt 24, and Mark 13, I always… Read more »
excellent! I agree with your thinking, I have long sought the same thing and scriptures do support this concept. I will look forward to be reading more of what you have to say concerning this matter.
Join the discussion and the watchtower will always be struggling with it, ’cause the bottom line is their just plain wrong about their generation scenario.
When taking into account the scenes where Jesus used the term “this generation” He was always referring to the people alive at that time: Mat 11:16 “To what should I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces who call out to one another, Mat 12:41 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them – and now, something greater than Jonah is here! Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn… Read more »
Good reasoning thanks menrov interesting thought though in the context of matthew 23 v36 where jesus says they slew zechariah . Blaming those whom he was talking to for an event that happened many years before .
An excellent point and one that actually supports the idea that the wicked generation he was referring to was a generation in the traditional sense. “so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.” (Mt 23:35, 36) In verse 35 he refers to “YOU” meaning not just them, but their kind, the seed of Satan, going all the way… Read more »
I may be wrong ,but im not sure why a later generation would have to pay for the sins of thier forefathers .not the way i tend to read ezekiel 18 anyway .
The forefathers will still be held accountable, individually, but collectively, as a generation (people all living at the same time) the punishment could only be meted out once. There would only be one end of the Jewish system of things. If the generation of Jesus day had repented in sackcloth as did the ancient Ninevites, then perhaps their doom could have been postponed, as was the destruction of Ninevah.
Hey i enjoyed the artice . Thanks for the common sense approach to biblical interpretation . This sounds as though it could be correct . The illustration of the fig tree and its application may only apply to the first part of the questiin raised tell us when the destruction of the temple wiil be . Makes sense really .
So its possible there are no definitive signs of his second coming until it is upon us . In the sign of the son of man in the heavens . For if there were , we would be expecting it . And this in in contrast to what jesus said , if the householder had known at what time he would have stayed awake . And at an hour you think it not to be the son of man is coming . Also he is coming as a thief in the night . Interesting again makes sense really
Join the discussion more rational thinking thank you……
“In Revelation 7:9–17 is described the vision of a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds, and people, and tongues, of whom it is said that These are they which came out of great tribulation (or out of the great tribulation) and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. There is nothing in this passage to show that the tribulation referred to is yet future, or to justify the expression, commonly heard in some quarters, tribulation saints. What John is here permitted to see is, not a future… Read more »
One possible difficulty with applying the generation of Matthew 24:34 only to the first century is that much of what is described in Matthew chapter 24 with connection to the that generation clearly did not occur in the first century. Specifically Matt 24:29-31.
Actually, I wrote two articles explaining why that isn’t an issue. You can read the first here.
Bklyn Kevin • 5 months ago Nowhere in the bible does it say or indicate that the time, times, and half a time as said by Daniel in 12:7, as well as Johns 1260 days or 42 months “should last one hundred or more years,”but that’s what the watchtower would have you believe. Again I say there is no textual proof in the context of these prophecies to indicate or prove that these 3 1/2 year period should last a hundred or more years . This 3 1/2 year time period is the “short period of time” which John brought… Read more »
Thank you Meleti, this is outstanding reasoning. I came to the conclusion some time ago that “this generation” was entirely fulfilled in the 1st century based on history and scripture – but I still had some loose ends which you have tied up in this article, so I am absolutely thrilled! Regarding your last two questions, I look forward to the next article. My gut feeling on is that Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:21 refer exclusively to the dedicated Jewish nation (as the context and their fulfilment suggest) which did not exist in Noah’s day and ended in 70 AD… Read more »
Thank you, 1984. I feel very much as you do. I’m glad you didn’t let the “ludicrous interpretations” (and there have been some doozies) of the WT get to you. Alas, so many have fallen by the wayside, even becoming atheists as a result of WT-based disillusionment.
There is another possible explanation. One that reconciles both a first century and great tribulation fulfilment. The word generation, (Greek = genea), carries more meaning than what is generally assigned to it. In the context of Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:32 it refers to an, age or eon, a duration of time. A SPAN OF TIME THAT WOULD BE CHARACTERIZED BY A PREVAILING PERVERSE SOCIETY THAT HAS CONTINUED TO REJECT THE SON OF MAN. This generation first appeared in Jesus’ day and has continued to exist until our day. Because there has been a constant rejection of the son of… Read more »
Mark 8:31, 38 provides the answer.
In verse 31 the generation is identified, the Jewish religious leaders.
In verse 38 the timing is given. Jesus says he will reject those who reject him, WHEN HE COMES. This includes all perverse society that have continued to reject him since he walked the earth as a man.
Hi ANTONINVS, I thought that as well for a time. Check out “This Generation” – Getting All the Pieces to Fit. If you scan the 17 articles in the “This Generation” category, you’ll see that I’ve failed many times to come up with an explanation that fits all the facts. The reason was I was always being influenced by JW thinking that there was a modern-day fulfillment. Even when I thought I had abandoned all my bias and preconceptions, they clung to me, like old cobwebs. It was only when I learned to approach the subject with no preconceptions that… Read more »
Hi Meleti, As always thank you for your observations. I tried to keep my comment pithy, short and sweet. So I have not gone into all the evidence for the comments I made. Please believe me when I say that I don’t use the WT position as my starting point, I reject their interpretation. I divorced myself from that mindset long ago. I have done the hard yards on this subject and I am very conversant with it. I wrote an article explaining the position I stated above. But it would be very difficult to incorporate it on this forum.… Read more »
I do understand and thank you for not trying to do that here in the comment section. Apollos and I are hard at work trying to set up a forum for controlled discussions on specific subjects. By controlled I mean strictly moderated to keep the discussion on track so that it can be fair and yet cordial. I will be asking for suggestions on topics to handle in this way with a view of arriving at a consensus. Keep this topic in mind so that when the time comes, if you like, we can make it one of the ones… Read more »
Hi Meleti
Sounds good. That is all one can ask for.
Hi Meleti,
One more point.
I have found that at times all the pieces don’t seem to fit because all the other WT teachings need to be ratified in ones mind. Some rejected out right and others simply fine tuned.
This matter of the generation is connected with so many other WT teachings. It is these other teachings that cloud the issue.
This is explained in a book written in 1921 by Philip Mauro called “The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation”. He was writing when Russell was alive and writing all his pyramid and parallel dispensation stuff. He spoke out against dispensationalism, calling it “modernism”.
Always looking forward to the next article unwrapping the marvelous gifts of the spirit, which untangle the web of JWdoctrine in our lives. Thank you for being who you are Meleti
Love from your sister in Christ
Thank you so much, Willy.
Your article was very well written. The big thing that I took away from this article, is, never assume ANYTHING. I am still trying to get the mastery over this. We assume so much, that we don’t even realize we are doing it, like in your example of the great tribulation. So I appreciate your break down of scripture. We need to look at things as if we never seen it. It really takes alot of conscious effort to do this. It can be painstaking, but worth the effort.
Hey Meleti , The only thing I can say is that I love to watch the Spirit at work! I love you dear brother and thank you for slaving for the brotherhood in the that you do . Chains are constantly being broken with the spirit and you certainly have proven to be an asset to the body of Christ . JW brethren need to be herded from this pen ( trap) to Christ. Unfortunately JW’s only listen to JW’s . I am sure that God can make the stones cry out if he needed to . But does he… Read more »
Thank you so much Shannon for your kind and encouraging words.
in mat 24:33 many have inserted he but it should be it refering to the judgement of the jewish age at the doors used in a similar way in James 5:9 and nothing to do with any timing to do with jesus
Good point. Did not know that. I checked: ABP_Strongs(i) 33 G3779So G2532also G1473you, G3752whenever G1492you behold G3956all G3778these things, G1097know G3754that G1451it is near G1510.2.3 G1909at G2374the doors. IGNT(i) 33 G3779 ουτως THUS G2532 και ALSO G5210 υμεις YE, G3752 οταν WHEN G1492 (G5632)ιδητε YE SEE G3956 παντα ALL G5023 ταυτα THESE THINGS, G1097 (G5720)γινωσκετε KNOW G3754 οτι THAT G1451 εγγυς NEAR G2076 (G5748)εστιν IT IS, G1909 επι AT “THE” G2374 θυραις DOORS. And most others on here (studybible.info/compare/Matthew%2024:33) also have IT. However, I understand this can also be translated with HE or SHE (in addition to IT). I also… Read more »