One of our forum members relates that in their memorial talk the speaker broke out that old chestnut, “If you are asking yourself if you should partake or not, it means you have not been chosen and so do not partake.”
This member came up with some excellent reasoning showing the flaw in this common statement often made by those trying to dissuade sincere Christians from obeying Jesus’ instructions on partaking. (Note: While the premise for the above statement is flawed from the get-go, it can be helpful to accept an opponent’s premise as valid, and then take it to its logical conclusion to see if it holds water.)
Moses got a direct call from God. Nothing could be clearer. He heard God’s voice directly, recognized who was calling, and got the message of his appointment. But what was his reaction? He displayed doubt. He told God about his unqualified status, his impediment. He asked God to send someone else. He asked for signs, which God gave him. When he brought up the issue of his speech defect, it seems God got a little angry, telling him he is the one who made the dumb, the speechless, the blind, then He assured Moses, “I will be with you”.
Did Moses self-doubt disqualify him?
Gideon, who served in collaboration with Judge Deborah, was sent by God. Yet, he asked for a sign. When told that he would be the one to deliver Israel, Gideon modestly spoke of his own insignificance. (Judges 6:11-22) At another occasion, to confirm God was with him, he asked for a sign and then another (the reverse) as proof. Did his doubts disqualify him?
Jeremiah, when appointed by God, replied, “I am but a boy”. Did this self-doubt disqualify him?
Samuel was called by God. He did not know who was calling him. It took Eli to discern, after three such incidents, that it was God calling to Samuel for an assignment. An unfaithful high priest helping one called by God. Did that disqualify him?
Isn’t that a nice bit of scriptural reasoning? So even if we accept the premise of a special individual calling—which I know most of us, including this contributing member, do not—we still have to acknowledge that self-doubt is not a reason not to partake.
Now to examine the premise for that Kingdom hall speaker’s line of reasoning. It comes from an eisegetical reading of Romans 8:16:
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.”
Rutherford came up with the “Other Sheep” doctrine in 1934[i] using the now-disavowed antitypical application of the Israelite cities of refuge.[ii] At some point, in search of scriptural support, the Organization settled on Romans 8:16. They needed a scripture that seemed to support their view that only a tiny remnant should partake, and this is the best they could come up with. Of course, reading the entire chapter is something they avoid, for fear that the Bible might interpret itself in a way contrary to the interpretation of men.
Romans chapter 8 speaks of two classes of Christian, to be sure, but not of two classes of approved Christian. (I can call myself a Christian, but that doesn’t mean Christ thinks of me as one of his own.) It does not speak of some who are anointed and approved by God and others who, while also approved by God, are not anointed with spirit. What it speaks of are Christians who are fooling themselves by thinking they are approved while living in accordance with the flesh and its desires. The flesh leads to death, while the spirit leads to life.
“For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace…” (Romans 8:6)
No special midnight calling here! If we set our mind on the spirit, we have peace with God and life. If we set our mind on the flesh, we have only death in view. If we have the spirit, we are God’s children—end of story.
“For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons.” (Romans 8:14)
If the Bible were speaking about a personal calling at Romans 8:16, then that verse should read:
“The spirit will bear witness with your spirit that you are one of God’s children.”
Or if in the past tense:
“The spirit has borne witness with your spirit that you are one of God’s children.”
We’re talking about a single event, a unique call by God to the individual.
Paul’s words speak of another reality, a calling to be sure, but not from one approved group of Christian into another approved group.
He speaks collectively and in the present tense. He is telling all Christians who are led by God’s spirit, not the flesh, that they are already God’s children. No one reading that would understand he’s speaking to spirit-led Christians (Christians who have rejected the sinful flesh) and telling them that some of them are going to get or have already gotten a special calling from God while others have not received such a calling. He speaks in the present tense saying essentially, “If you have the spirit and are not fleshly, then you already know you are a child of God. God’s spirit, that dwells in you, makes you aware of this fact.”
It is a state of being that all Christians share.
There is nothing to indicate that those words have changed their meaning nor their application with the passage of time.
___________________________________________________________
[i] See two-part article series “His Kindness” in August 1 and 15, 1934 The Watchtower.
[ii] See box “Lessons or Antitypes?” on page 10 of the November, 2017 The Watchtower – Study Edition
I so wish I could get my sister to hear this, understand and accept this. She is trapped in Watchtower world and if I so much hint that the “Governing Body” is wrong, she’ll run screaming into the night, “Apostate!” “Apostate!” I’ll keep hoping that one day she will wake up. She doesn’t realize that by refusing to partake, she and so many others are actually rejecting Christ…So sad.
How many years has she been in? if you don’t mind me asking?
We were both baptized in November 1992 out at Woodland Hills, Ca. There used to be a large Assembly Hall out there, I believe it was sold sometimes in the late 90’s. I do thank all of you for your advice and helpful comments. I don’t say anything against the organization to her, matter of fact, we don’t even discuss ‘religion’ when we talk on the phone. She lives in California, I live in Texas, so we don’t really see each other often. Prayer and complete reliance on Yahuweh is all I can do, I trust Him and I know… Read more »
Twenty six years is a long time but it’s not a lifetime as some here have been having to suffer through. The good thing is you two are still talking,she has not blotted you out of her JW life so that means there may still be an opening there. I still talk to many of my JW family but not about the true Lord Jesus Christ.( nobody can be a prophet in his own hometown or something like that I think is how it goes)! We keep it casual so that the family bond still remains.
Best regards, Psalmbee
It takes time and patience. The best way I have found is to use the NWT and the WT Organisation . Using the bible and the literature ask questions and share scriptures. Leave them with a question to ponder. You need to build up a body of evidence that will help them change thinking. Alongside this they need to see how they can get spiritually fed. The question always is “where can we go?”. Using the bible we can show them it should be “ whom can we go to?” A person, Jesus Christ. Finally, a Christian is a person… Read more »
muchos aqui entendemos tu lucha por querer ganar a alguien tan importante para ti para cristo…pero la jw los tiene tan cegados (nunca en mi vida pensé decir algo así,;),).en mi caso es mi madre, ha sido muy difícil ayudarle a razonar con las escrituras a pesar que ella habla mucho de obediencia. sé que se entristece mi estado de rechazo por la organización pero estoy alegre porque por lo menos he ganado a mi hijo. que el cristo te de fuerzas para seguir tu lucha hermana
I have some family members that will totally shun any kind of information that is presented to them, they regard it as part of Satan’s world trying to attack them. Those I call the hard core JW’s,for some we must accept they will never leave the Org. No matter what the GB does or says they will always be faithful to them. We can only hope that in time the Org. will crumble, otherwise they are in it till the end. Like Eleasar said actions speak louder than words but for the hard core ones sadly that is still not… Read more »
Faith and reason- even the presence of tough, legitimate questions- can all be friends on the side of authentic Christianity. Any religion who isn’t willing to accommodate a believer’s right to explore truth in the same fields of study as everyone else is surely hiding some insecurity somewhere.
LaRhonda, the irony in accusing those critical of the GB of apostasy is that the GB is itself apostate. The most obvious example I can think of is their mis-reading of Proverbs 4:18 out of context, and applying it to their “light gets brighter” doctrine. If light from God really got “brighter” over time, it had to have been “dark” in some sense of the word before. In plain English, if the GB is God’s sole channel of communication, but religious teachings from the GB have been in error, who do they blame? At times, the GB has blamed its… Read more »
Sad, isn’t it, my sister, how loosely and recklessly the word “apostate” is thrown around in the congregation. I find it useless to try to discuss real Biblical truths with physical men and women. They just don’t get it, (John 3:12). Besides, the GB has put itself, not only in the “seat of Moses”, but also on the throne of Christ.
Thank You to All..discussion here is dear to my heart.& no worries,Robert,over being’voted down'(happened to me in voicing my own,private-personal view,couple months ago,over the new heavens/earth interdimensional future of’heaven-on-earth’in Revelation)..after all…”Overwatching us is the Divine,and our freedom to discuss on here-Sublime!we’re all together on the Path;(our spiritual comprehension,tho,makes some laugh);indeed this Calling seems both simple -and deep;until we all attain to perfection..in Christ,our Faith-keep.” (& Meliti,what I emailed you last yr.about this topic,it was not a setting”in heaven”).Many many grateful Thanks for all of you..for this forum,for our growing understandings;blessings,as a family of God’s children!
These things are discouraging, but I should have let it go and not remarked on it. My regrets and apologies for not having more tolerance than that. I am mindful that I am opinionated and sometimes say too much. But truly, if someone thinks I’m wrong, I really want them to say so in plain English. It’s the only way we all can learn.
Don’t sweat it Robert, I would call it being full of Spirit, we are all guilty of it.
creería yo que todos tenemos un espíritu fuerte,y si,ser obstinados para ir en contra de un sistema opresivo.no nos gusta estar en ese estado de engaño continúo y opresivo de jw. a veces pienso que mi carácter fuerte ha impedido a los ancianos a hablar conmigo después que mi hijo y yo en un acto de obediencia a nuestro amo participamos de los emblemas (realmente me asombra que no me halla llamado a la sala de atrás, deben estar pensando como hablar del tema,ha habido mucho movimiento jajaja ), pero sabes? cristo te da fuerzas para seguir en tu lucha… Read more »
One definition of faith is doing what you believe to be right, in spite of strong pressure not to. If you truly believe that partaking is correct, then it would show a lack of faith to abstain. Jesus said, “Keep DOING this, in remembrance of me.” He did not say, “Keep OBSERVING this, in remembrance of me.” We must be mindful that at the “last supper”, none of the apostles had received gifts of the spirit. There were NO anointed followers. Yet, they all partook, even though they did not fully understand what they were doing. (How could they? NO… Read more »
Robert, the other interesting detail is that the only one who was anointed with Holy Spirit was the only non partaker!
I do believe Judas did not partake, so with Jesus that would be two.
Hi Brain. I have part given my thoughts on your question about 3 comments below this one. What do you think ? Basically I am working on the basis that the Holy Spirit, in this case, is bearing witness via God’s word which then shows up what sort of spirit is really motivating us, in other words we prove ourselves to be God’s children by our attitude to what he says in the Bible, so the Bible (God’s spirit) acts as a witness for (stands up for or proves) what sort of person we are. That is about as clear… Read more »
me parece que discutir sobre cómo hace él espíritu santo para testificar que somos hijos de Dios es pisar el terreno de Dios. y pienso que es mas sencillo decir que si vives tu vida en el espíritu ya eres hijo de Dios aunque dudemos de nuestra filiación. es un acto de obediencia.claro, a veces podemos hacer cosas que ofendan a nuestro padre pero gracias que no es un amigo mas,ya sabes como son los amigos
Thanks Eric for opening this subject. I know speaking for myself that I am not “anointed ” with Holy Spirit , however, what I am drawn by is the need to be in a covenant relationship with Jehovah, Paul makes the need for that abundantly clear at Eph 2:12-15. Even more compelling to me are Jesus words at Joh 6: 53-58 and also what he said on the night of the passover at Matt26:28 , that the new covenant is also for the forgiveness of sins, for some reason this gets neglected by WT teaching, do they not realise it’s… Read more »
W.O., you bring up a good point in mentioning the covenant. I know personally that whenever a religious discussion delves into “covenants” my eyes just glaze over; it can get so boring that I stop listening … Anyway, WT today views being anointed like the priests were anointed in the nation of Israel. But, the entire nation was under the covenant, not just the priests. So it sure seems like all Christians ought to be under the new covenant, not just ones destined to rule in the kingdom. But WT never presents it that way. To them, anybody who is… Read more »
The sad thing is Robert, they need all those nobodys to keep their anointed
financially successful and also without those nobodys they wouldn’t have anybody to listen to them when they claim to be anointed.So being a nobody in the Org. is a very important position in regards to the self proclaimed anointed. They need the nobodys so that they can be somebody, it’s a vicious cycle for sure.
Hello Robert , just a bit more on covenants , hope your eyes don’t glaze over ? As I see it one constant with Jehovah is that he always has his worshippers in a covenant , Adam had a covenant, albeit a basic one ,that’s my tree don’t touch it. Noah had a covenant, so did Abraham, also his nephew Lot, David had one as did the whole nation of Israel, and Christians have one today,it seems to me that a covenant is a basic part of the framework that Jehovah establishes for worship, he makes sure his worshippers know… Read more »
W.O. Thank you. I especially liked your illustration of the kneading trough. My take on this is that if we are children of God, and God is entirely righteous and is a spirit, then everything we do is sacred. I should say, everything we do NEEDS to be sacred. It’s up to us whether that is actually true or not. What we have for breakfast is sacred, how we fold the sheets is sacred, a leaf on a tree outside our window is sacred, because we are in harmony with the universe that our Creator made for us. Romans I… Read more »
Absolutely Robert, everything is on record, with this understanding, to now follow the spirit instead of the flesh , becomes , at times a moment to moment consideration.
And yes Jehovah the perfect spirit, who we are made in his image, we can now rest from the idea of proving ourselves righteous and depend on Jesus blood to speak for us, so liberating, right down to what you said, enjoying breakfast with our spiritual companions (Joh 14:23)
On the issue of spirit “anointing”, it is interesting to note that other denominations are struggling to contain this very issue from infiltrating their own ranks:
See the same emperor wearing different clothes (from 11:40 – 13:50)
Truly, we are not left ignorant of our enemy’s designs (cf. 2 Cor. 2:11).
There’s this New Apostolic Reformation movement, where the leaders are basically anointed, receiving direction from God, and handing it down to followers. The NAR is pretty trendy right now, and controversial in the Evangelical scene.
Hi Joseph, Thanks for pointing out a contemporary example of one of these new revelation missions. As I encounter it, there is both dignity and disgrace in these movements. There is dignity in their desire to hearken back to the teachings of the apostles, but there is disgrace in their attempts to supplement or supplant their authority. When reading the letter to the Hebrews as well as Jude we are made privy to the truth that the first century faith was, in point of fact, an eschatological faith. That is to say, it was representative of the faith required unto… Read more »
Can’t agree more Vox , many attempts are being made to return to 1st century worship, but that darn ego always pops its unwelcome head up.
I kinda feel that Charles Russell was headed in the right direction, but again , ego got the better of him , as for Joseph Rutherford, well I think he was a bad egg from the start. Sorry if that’s off topic , but both of them fell for the ” god speaking through me ” delusion along with being ” anointed”.
The problem with the WT viewpoint is that they equate having God’s spirit with being “anointed” to go to heaven to rule with Christ. But, Romans isn’t saying that. It just says that the spirit indicates you are one of God’s children. As you know, Eric, I believe that no one is going to heaven, and that those chosen to rule will remain on earth as humans in every sense of the word. If that understanding were found to be true, it would explain something: Why it is that so many JWs are now partaking, in increasing numbers every year.… Read more »
An answer to the ‘loyalty question’ I concocted after much thinking. Basically when asked if you believe the Faithful and Discreet Slave are God’s sole channel on Earth, ask them if they feel a specific anointed person in the congregation is actually one of the anointed. Then ask them if that’s any of their business whether they are anointed or not – also, how is it any of your business what their thoughts are on the matter anyway?
Hi Meliti. It was about time that the subject was raised, the mystery of being one of the anointed, so thank you for letting us get this out in the open. We have even been discouraged from raising the subject with the anointed. So everybody is left in the impossible situation, namely like it or lump it. And of course, if you are not anointed, then you have no reason to question those who are. In Romans 5:1 Pauls states that “Now we have become righteous by means of faith”. He does not mention any special anointing here, and is… Read more »
I think you nailed it Leonardo.
Thanks, Eric. Now all I am trying to get to grips with is – what happens when someone who now claims to be of the anointed explains that the heavenly hope is something that has become increasingly stronger, and is all they can focus on ? What is going on ? Is it that only a few have this hope, and they are scattered all over different religions – thereby giving some sort of an answer to part of Jesus wheat and weeds parable ?
LJ, I have tried to get a handle on this, too. As I mentioned on an earlier post above, I believe there is no heavenly hope. We are all destined for life on earth. When we see in the NT discussions about the spirit, being children of God, being called, etc. there are two different things going on. These are just my views, and you are free to dispute them. If we accept that WT is wrong about anointing = heavenly hope, then it becomes a little simpler. Eric has made clear many times that there are not 3 classes… Read more »
One of the main reasons most of us are on this site is so that we can express our opinions. All we search for is truth, and truth must be in harmony with itself, and therefore with known facts and with the rest of the Bible. Some things, such as where the Kingdom will operate from, what happens when the earth is full, make little difference until God’s due time arrives for those particular things. I may have different views from you, but that does not matter. If someone says that you have won a holiday to paradise, do you… Read more »
Robert and LJ,
Amen and amen!?
It is so easy for us to delude ourselves. People have even killed in the name of God, thinking they are ensuring their place in the kingdom of the heavens. (I’m not talking location. 🙂 ) It is God who calls us and God who rewards us, so all we can do is concentrate on our own understanding. The spirit within us will bear witness with God’s spirit that we are his children. If we are self-deluding, then I guess that is where the gnashing of the teeth will be on judgment day.
To be or not to be that is the question! Hmmm, I am not going to be looking back as did Lot’s wife. I am not going to be doubting my God given spiritual capacity.
(Ps 84:10)
Hi Meleti, Very nicely reasoned by this forum member. Another example that comes to mind is when one is made to feel that they’re not good enough to warrant God’s choosing or that they don’t have an adequate record of faithfulness to back it up. For instance, because of an acute awareness of their own sinfulness, some feel that they could not possibly work alongside Christ. This seems to be how Peter once felt as well (Luk. 5:8). But Jesus scuttled any unease over personal unworthiness with two simple words. His reply: “Fear not…” (Luk. 5:10b). Did Peter feel good… Read more »
Well put, Vox.
Last two sentences: very clever, Vox :-))
I will never understand the rationale behind the voting decisions on this forum. For a time, I had 3 “likes” to my one-line comment above, and now it’s down to 1. How much controversy can there be for me to note that Vox had a clever conclusion to his post? But Meleti’s short post below, which differs little in substance in saying Vox did a nice job, gets 6 votes. Huh? I am too young (65) to understand this. Unless someone is out there with a vendetta or something, and just wishes to irritate me or hurt my feelings by… Read more »
te doy mi like para que no te enojes.
I am not mad, I am just confused.
Robert,I’d rather you voice yourself’as you are’,than in last yr’s past..where(I could tell)you were terribly hurting,(and as a sad consequence it happens, to most of us),partly-shut down and away..hurting from your Bereavement,tragic Loss..Eric/Meleti,too. I personally rejoice in your’returning’more alive and obviously(each)at a higher level..You(and all here)have been unmeasurably-good for the rest of us,in your strengths! Until our relief-from heaven…we suffer the deaths of our Beloved ones;it is real courage-to get back up;into the fray and continue to defend and support our faith. & I’d 100% rather hear a brother or sister’roar like a lion’in Scripturally-sound proofs of their spirituality,than,hear a… Read more »
Thank you Devora. I will say again, with 100% sincerity, if someone thinks I am wrong, please tell me in plain English; don’t just vote me down. Otherwise I will have utterly no idea why you are unhappy. I don’t by any means know everything. (Most days I am not sure I even know my own name.) Contributing to public forums of this sort is always a challenge and a risk. People can get opinionated and passionate. But, being opinionated and passionate is not the same thing as being right. There was a time that I thought the only thing… Read more »
Nice thoughts Robert , and Ime sorry to hear of your loss , I was not aware of that previously, shows how much important stuff can be missed here , even when it’s all in writing. Your thought on “speaking for god” that wonderful delusion I was myself addicted to most of my life, it is “opium” to feel your right about everything, Jesus of course had other plans for my ego. I personally feel that I have grown in any kind of spiritual way in only just the last 4years , I still feel Ime untangling myself from so… Read more »