Who’s Who? (Little Flock/Other Sheep)

Comment by Hugo I. Matias on 2013-01-31 18:27:23

I was thinking on this when readed that chapter in my daily Bible reading. Jesus said (after speaking about the importance of not center our lives in meterial things): "seek continually his KINGDOM, and these things will be added to YOU." and inmediatly he said: "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the KINGDOM."
For me it's clear that the "little flock" are those who seek first the kingdom, and include us all. Comparing order of ideas of Luke 10 with the ideas of Matthew chapter 6 and 7, I even see the posibility that the "little flock" are those who enter through "the narrow gate" (Matthew 7:13). This is just my idea. But I can see clear that the little flock are all those who are seeking first the kingdom.

Comment by Steve on 2013-01-31 19:58:04

If you start in verse one of Luke 12 and read throughout you will find Jesus addressing both a great multitude and his immediate disciples. In context, the little flock is that small group of disciples relative to the multitude of people present.
John 10 is in context a bit ambiguous, however the parallel with Paul's parable of the two becoming one man and the dividing wall is remarkably similar, suggesting Jesus also had in mind Jews and gentiles.
Steve

• Reply by Steve on 2013-01-31 19:59:39

  I forgot to mention the text of Paul's parable, which is Ephesians 2.

Comment by Tony on 2013-01-31 20:47:13

Good someone who is a thinker and starting to see the real facts, that is there is absolutely no scriptural basis to prove that the other sheep have an earthly hope except while they are living.
While you are at it, try and scripturally prove that there will be a resurrection back on to the earth.

• Reply by Steve on 2013-01-31 23:53:51

  Tony,
  Of course they have an earthly hope, for they are Abraham's seed. The center of the Abrahamic covenant is inheriting the earth! It begins with the land of Canaan, which is promised "forever" (Gen. 13:13-15) and will expand to cover the entire earth (Gen. 22:17; Psa. 2:8) All will dwell on the earth who are Abraham's seed, for it is the inheritance of both his physical and spiritual seed (ROM. 4:13-17).
  Revelation 20 shows those of the first resurrection upon the earth. They were raised to life and after the thousand years they are encircled by the wicked, which could hardly be true if they are in heaven. So also will be Jesus, for when he returns he will drink wine (Mat. 26:29).
  Steve

Comment by on 2013-02-01 02:55:16

No Steve, those on the earth at the end of the 1000 years are not those of the resurrected ones. The scripture in Revelation does not say that.
It simply refers to the Holy ones (or Saints) who will be alive at that time period.
I will quote the scripture here for all to read.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
7 And whenever the thousand years are ended, Satan will be set loose out of his prison,
8 and he will go to mislead the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them in war, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up over the breadth of the land and encircled the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire from God came down out of Heaven and burned them down. [LITV]
Is there any mention of a resurrection, here onto the earth in these verses?
And as for the scripture at Matthew 26:29, it does not actually say where this is to take place, does it?
29 But I say to you, I will not at all drink of this fruit of the vine after this until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of My Father.
Now as far as Jehovah's witnesses are concerned anyway, this scripture is actually applying to those with a Heavenly hope.
The (you) being his apostles, who he was speaking to at that time.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-01 06:31:54

  Are you suggesting that all the verses in the Bible that speak of a resurrection refer only to a heavenly resurrection?

  • Reply by on 2013-02-01 12:09:00

    Meleti,
    I would argue along with Steve that the resurrection will be a "heavenly" on yes, but it will be a heavenly life on the new earth.
    Something does not need to be in Heaven to be "heavenly." Case in point, those who "tasted the heavenly gift" in Heb. 6:4 did not got to heaven to experience that gift.
    All of Abraham's seed are those who belong to Christ (Gal. 3:29) and will be "heir of the world" (Rom. 4:13) along with Abraham.

  • Reply by theapologeticfront on 2013-02-01 12:16:13

    Meleti,
    Yes, it will be a "heavenly resurrection," but it will be a resurrection to eternal life in the new earth. Remember, one does not have to go to heaven to experience something "heavenly." (Heb. 6:4)
    Also, Scripture gives confirmation that eternal life will be on the new earth for Abraham and his seed, for they will inherit the world (Rom. 4:13), which includes all who belong to Christ (Gal. 3:29)

• Reply by Steve on 2013-02-01 08:05:40

  Anonymous,
  Please note that it is the "holy" who receive the first resurrected and it is the "holy" who are surrounded. Are you suggesting there are two groups of holy ones? Where does the Bible teach this? In context there is no room for this distinction.
  Are there grape vines planted in heaven, or just wine itself? Never once does the Bible mention such a thing. But the Bible teaches that Jesus will return.
  Acts 3:20 and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for ?YOU, Jesus,21whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time.
  Heaven will only hold Jesus until the restoration of all things, not for eternity.
  Steve

  • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-02-01 08:17:30

    "Are there grape vines planted in heaven, or just wine itself? Never once does the Bible mention such a thing."
    Steve - In truth the Bible does not say too much at all about the "nature" of heaven. How could we possibly rule out anything specific? To do so seems like we just accept an ethereal spirit concept in which nothing actually happens except for non-tangible things. Where does the Bible actually limit what can be possible in heaven?
    Apollos

    • Reply by Steve on 2013-02-01 10:01:25

      Apollos,
      That is a fair point, but I'm suggesting this is significant as merely a part of the evidence. Wine is a substance partaken of on earth for certain, and numerous texts such as in Acts 3 and elsewhere speak of Jesus leaving heaven and returning to earth.
      As Jesus is also of Abraham's seed the earth is his promised inheritance.
      Steve

  • Reply by Tony on 2013-02-01 21:02:02

    To Steve, there were and is always holy ones here on the earth at any given time period as there will be at the end of the dispensation era of 1000 years.
    As for those who speak about a "new earth", I do believe that they are on the right track as long as they do not believe that the "new earth" is this planet that we are now living on.
    That is not to say that at some time in the future that our earth will not become a paradise and human lives will be extended quite considerably.
    I believe that this is what is promised to the human race, that at some time in the future, perhaps after the 1000 year period that earth will be a place where no wickedness will be found and only the meek and righteous will dwell there as evil-doing will be a thing of the past relatively speaking, and there will become a united brotherhood where the entire earth have beaten there swords into plow-shares and so war will be no more being a thing of the past.
    This is the essential message of the Kingdom of God, that men will become brothers and sisters and become approved sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, our universal creator and origin of all life in his universe.
    Jesus (Michael) is our creator Father (not part of a trinity) one who is very fond of us as a human race, even though we are somewhat wayward, but as a race we have potential.
    I believe that Isaiah 9:6, indicates this when referring to Jesus as our eternal, or everlasting Father.
    6 For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [LITV]
    As well as that we will also join, the Kingdom of the Heavens, that we make us approved members of God's universal Kingdom of intelligent entities that reside therein.
    Jesus showed that there are many domains, in his Father's house, many dwelling places and that when he went away he was going to prepare one of them for their habitation. Not necessarily a spiritual one either.
    Though there is some indication that some will go to the spiritual realms, perhaps the first fruit that was spoken of in the Greek scriptures (New Testament).
    What do you say of this scripture that I will now quote for you?
    John 14
    1 ¶ Do not let your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
    2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places. But if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you!
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, that where I am you may be also. [LITV]

    • Reply by Steve on 2013-02-01 21:39:29

      Tony
      Would you mind explaining why you think Isaiah 9:6 provides a description of the Messiah and not a single, compound name?
      What is the house of Jesus' Father? Is it his kingdom? His church? Are you certain he is referring to heaven here? Why would a place need to be prepared in heaven for them? But the kingdom would require as much, as would the church.
      Steve

      • Reply by Tony on 2013-02-01 23:14:04

        Steve, i am not sure what you mean by "compound name", I'm assuming you mean all the titles that is applying to Jesus as recorded in the scriptures.
        When it comes to actually understanding what the "Kingdom of God" and the Kingdom of Heaven is in reality we do need to read the various phrases that Jesus used about the Kingdom while he was on the earth as a human.
        Things like "the Kingdom of the heavens" is like a mustard grain or like a dragnet, etc.
        The Jewish nation as a whole believed in the Kingdom as prophesied being here on the earth, in a literal sense, but Jesus showed them another side to the Kingdom, the spiritual side and indicating to them that the Kingdom that he was talking about is no part of this world as it was understood by them.
        Unfortunately Jehovah's Witnesses have picked up form where the Jewish nation left in their understanding of the Kingdom of God.
        Not that the Kingdom would be ruling on the earth, but ruling over the earth from the heavenly domain in a literal sense.

        • Reply by Tony on 2013-02-02 05:35:25

          I just realized that I did not answer you question, properly.
          We know that the prophet Isaiah was referring to the messiah because of the following verse which I will quote here.
          Isaiah 9
          7 There is no end to the increase of His government and of peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it, and to sustain it with justice and with righteousness, from now and forever. [litv]
          The Jewish nation believed that the messiah would be sitting on Davids throne.
          But this is a misconception, as Jesus is actually sitting on his own throne as now confirmed sovereign of his own local universe (our universe) that was granted to him by his Heavenly Father.
          Matthew 28
          16 ¶ But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them.
          17 And seeing Him, they worshiped Him. But they doubted.
          18 And coming up Jesus talked with them, saying, All authority in Heaven and on earth was given to Me.
          Jesus is in fact our Creator God.
          One who is like God in his expressed image.
          It obviously was made to appear that he came from the line of David to fulfill prophecy, but in reality he was the incarnated Creator God and Creator Son of God the Father, his Heavenly father and our Heavenly Father.
          Because Jesus is our Creator God, then he is also our father who died for us as a loving Father would give his life for his own children if necessary. The ultimate sacrifice.
          The house of Jesus Father, is his heavenly Universal domain in general, I do believe though it may be referring to where the God the Father actually does reside in Paradise, the Heavenly father's spiritual domain where God's spirit sons also reside with him.
          To be resident with God is what all of Gods transcending sons aspire to as well as to be holy like him and also perfect like he is.
          But this is a very high bench mark, because even Jesus himself who was relatively perfect as an incarnated human, said that only the Father is good, meaning that our heavenly Father is truly good and perfect compared to all his intelligent creatures that reside in all his universal domain.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-02 12:44:46

            Unfortunately, this discussion thread is getting off topic.
            Introducing the idea that Jesus is God is a centuries-old debate. This topic has been covered extensively in our publications and the members of this forum concur that Jesus is not God, nor should we be worshipping him, the translation of the King James notwithstanding. While the English word "worship" had several shades of meaning when Tyndale crafted his version and these continued to be part of the vernacular when King James commissioned an update, all but one of those meanings has died out in modern English. The sole meaning we're left with today does not accurately translate the original Greek of Mt. 28:17. For more on this, please consult "Truth in Translation" by Jason David Beduhn. Chapter four of that text "Bowing to Bias" covers this much more extensively than we can here.
            In any case, if you wish to debate the trinity or any subset of this doctrine, there are other forums for that or even a private discussion. For topics that are appropriate to this forum, please consult About This Forum and Commenting Etiquette.

        • Reply by Steve on 2013-02-02 09:44:28

          Tony,
          I don't think anyone is denying a spiritual aspect of the kingdom, but it will quite literally come to earth.
          Please again consider the Abrahamic covenant. What did it promise? First , to inherit the land of Canaan, and then the whole earth. Now, when Abraham was promised this, was the idea that they would rule over the land from a remote location, or would they dwell in it? The latter, of course. Unless you are to suggest that this covenant is no longer in effect, the same is true for the future.
          Steve

        • Reply by Steve on 2013-02-02 09:48:48

          Tony,
          What I mean is this: the text says "his name will be called," and what follows is that one name. I see no reason to interpret this as a description of the Messiah, but his single name, an actual description of the God who sent him.
          Steve

Comment by apollos0falexandria on 2013-02-01 07:50:21

The "other sheep" of John 10:16 are most logically and consistently the gentile Christians who would later be brought into the fold. This is in complete harmony with the Bible teaching that Jesus was originally sent forth to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 10:6; Matt 15:24), and that in context he was talking to his "little flock" of Jewish followers.
The events recording in Acts bear testimony to the truthfulness of Jesus' words at John 10:16, starting with the conversion of Cornelius and his family.
To read John 10:16 as subtly alluding to two hopes for Christians would mean that this scripture would have to stand alone in the Greek scriptures.
As you point out, the "great crowd" of Rev 7 is unrelated to John 10:16 - at least in any obvious way. The identity of the great crowd is also less easy to deduce, but I don't think we should be surprised or frustrated by that. This is after all the Revelation of John. If anyone made it though the last study of the "Revelation Climax" book thinking "that made perfect satisfying" sense then ... well I'll keep my thoughts to myself on that.
What we can say about the great crowd is that the term appears only here and in Rev 19:1,6. In the latter passage the great crowd is clearly stated to be situated in heaven. I accept that does not automatically mean that Rev 7 is referring to the same group in the same place. However the burden of proof should probably be on the interpreter to establish the difference. Instead what we find is strong evidence that John see the great crowd of chapter 7 ALSO in heaven, since the Greek word for the "temple" where they serve day and night refers to the temple sanctuary which is symbolically used to depict heaven in the presence of Jehovah himself.
You will find that we have argued a wider use for the term in our literature in order to allow for it to be applied to "earthly courtyards". I won't go into detail here, but rather encourage the reader to see if this stands up to close scrutiny.
In any event it is evident that we are having to go to some effort to defend our interpretation for this one passage, which doesn't mention earth anyway. If we put this scripture aside as being inconclusive for now, what are we left with in the Greek scriptures as far as a "two hope" system for Christians? (Eph 4:4)
This is NOT to say that there is no earthly resurrection. C.T Russell believed in one. Just not for Christians.
Apollos

• Reply by Jude on 2013-02-23 09:39:17

  I concur that the "other sheep" Jesus spoke about is most reasonably a reference to gentiles joining his flock in the future. This is plain to see when you consider that Jesus spoke of himself being sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 15:24) This statement shows that the sheep he currently had was exclusively Israelite sheep and would logically mean that the "other sheep not of this fold" would be gentiles soon to come in.
  Jesus brought the gentiles in by his death. (Ephesians 2:11-18) Do you remember the occasion in the same book of John when some Greeks came to see Jesus? When his disciples reported this to him he gave a long speech in which he said: "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified" and later: "if I am lifted up [in death on the stake] I would draw men of ALL sorts to me". (John 12:20-24,32,33). It was the report that Greeks wanted to see him that prompted this speech. Jesus evidently saw their interest in him as being somehow indicative that the opportunity was ripe for him to die to bring them in.
  As for Revelation 7. That is indeed a mystery. I have been toying with various theories of what the great crowd signifies. One theory is that they are the same 144,000. Why? Well, it's interesting to notice that John does not see the 144,000 that is sealed but he only HEARS the number that was sealed. From who does he hear it? The angels doing the sealing, the context would suggest. After hearing the number he SEES a great crowd which no MAN can number. So could it simply be a dramatic effect of him first hearing the number of those sealed and then later he sees them and look! they are actually too many for a human to number! and look! ... they are actually not limited to literal Jews but are people of all nations! Thus it could be a dramatic way of emphasizing that the Israel to be saved would be a vast mixed company of people of all nations. (Romans 11:25,26; Psalm 87:1-7)
  Another theory that I have is that the 144,000 is a special subset of christians who have been chosen by God because of their great devotion and self-sacrifice. (Revelation 14:4,5) They are like (pictured by) Jesus' 12 close disciples/apostles. The great crowd refers to others of mankind who weren't close disciples of christ but who are still saved because of exercising faith in Jesus ransom. They are like (pictured by) the large crowds who followed Jesus during his ministry and exercised faith in him and were healed and fed and resurrected from the dead, etc. (1 John 2:2) It is notable that after Revelation 14 mentions the 144,000, verse 6 speaks of good news being declared "to every nation and tribe and tongue and people". Does this not remind you of the great crowd of every nation and tribe and tongue mentioned in Revelation 7 also after the 144, 000 is mentioned? So Revelation 14 could be indicative of the great crowd coming about by their heeding the messages to fear God and give him glory and not to worship the wild beast and it's image. They escape destruction by heeding these lately preached messages and exercising faith in the ransom, but they are not yet outstandingly devoted christians with many years of faithful service as are the 144,000 first fruits. They may have been saved very late in the game just before the destruction starts. Perhaps they repent and exercise faith DURING the great tribulation and this could be one of the reasons why they are spoken of as coming out of the great tribulation - i.e. the great tribulation itself pushed them to repent and exercise faith in the ransom so that they were saved.

  • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-02-24 07:53:13

    Hi Jude
    Those are interesting suggestions. I have previously considered the idea that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are th same, but I had to dismiss it because the Great Crowd come out of the great tribulation, so if they are the same then the broader "bride of Christ" including all true Christians that had previously died would not be described by the 144,000. In Rev 14 it seems that the entire body is being referred to here.
    Therefore my thought is to turn around your second suggestion and actually view the great crowd a subset of the 144,000. Here is an extract of a recent email conversation I had with Meleti on the subject:
    ...
    It would seem that the identity of the 144K is almost more of a challenge to be specific on than the great crowd.
    We know that the great crowd comes out of the great tribulation, and we know that they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. Therefore these must be Christians who endure and survive the time of the end. We can also say that there is strong evidence that they are in heaven, and weak argumentation to suggest they are on earth. I believe that Rev 22:3 strongly identifies with Rev 7:15. In which case both the great crowd and the 144K have the name of God written on their foreheads (Rev 14:1; Rev 22:4). Also they both see the face of God, which no man can do and yet live (Ex 33:20; Matt 5:8; Rev 22:4).
    Now if the 144K represented all Christians who are resurrected to heavenly life, and the great crowd represents the subset who survive the time of end, would anything conflict with that?
    At first it seems counter-intuitive because of our preconceptions. 144K as the smaller group, and an unlimited number as the larger group superficially makes sense. But once we accept that 144K must be a symbolic number then we can easily dispel that. The symbolic number represents completeness, so that works for the entire group. But those who were alive at the time of the end would want the reassurance that the door would be open to as many as would conquer, hence the emphasis on no specific number.
    ....
    I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have on that explanation Jude,
    Apollos

    • Reply by Jude on 2013-02-25 09:02:40

      That's an interesting take on it. I have noticed in recent readings that the term firstfruits (used of the 144,000 at Revelation 14) is also used elsewhere in the Greek scriptures to refer to the "twelve tribes" and to specific Christians. I'm not sure if that is significant in terms of helping us to see that the 144,000 may refer to a special subset of anointed Christians. Perhaps a sampling of especially faithful Christians of Jewish ancestry from each of the twelve tribes in harmony with God's promise to Abraham. See Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:15; James 1:1,18
      It is apparent from the bible that all anointed Christians would go to heaven at the same time some time after the great tribulation so I don't think the timing of one group verses the other is significant except you are differentiating those who die before the great tribulation and are resurrected afterwards, from those who live through it. (Compare 1 Corinthians 15:52 which states the anointed are raised up during the LAST trumpet, with Matthew 24:29-31 which speaks of a great trumpet sound occurring AFTER the great tribulation. See also the Greek of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 which indicate that the dead anointed would be raised up first (evidently as spirits on Earth, as was the case with Jesus' resurrection), then the living anointed would be changed into spirits in the twinkling of an eye and then both the resurrected spirits and the changed spirits will go to heaven together "at the same time")
      I'm inclined to believe that the 144,000 is a special subset of very dedicated and loyal anointed Christians and this is why they are called firstfruits even as other Greek scriptures refer to some especially loyal and faithful Christians as being firstfruits. Jesus' faithful apostles are in this group. The great crowd refers to all anointed Christians of all nations who survive the great tribulation. The point about the 144,000 is to show that a faithful remnant of Jews from all the tribes of Israel would be saved in harmony with God's promise to favor and bless Abraham's literal seed while the point of the great crowd is to show that persons of all nations would be saved through the great tribulation by means of the ransom. The two groups overlap.
      Or perhaps all of the 144,000 have already died by the time the great tribulation comes and this is why Revelation 7 speaks about not harming the earth of the sea until they are all sealed - sealing occurs very near to or at death, no? And Jesus spoke of keeping his faithful anointed Christians from the hour of test, no? Yes, perhaps Revelation 3:7-13 is the key. It was to the Philadelphian congregation that Jesus said he would keep them from the hour of test - the great tribulation?. They were very faithful Christians - one of only two congregations that Jesus did not negatively counsel. Keeping them from the hour of test would mean that they would be spared from going through the great tribulation and this fact harmonizes with the angels being directed not to release the destructive winds until after the 144,000 are sealed - likely at or near the time of death. So perhaps the 144,000 are very faithful Christians of the past who die before the great tribulation and this is why they are mentioned separately before mentioning the great crowd of all nations who are characterized by the fact that they survive the great tribulation.

Comment by Origins of the Celestial Chariot « Beroean Pickets on 2013-02-01 09:31:51

[...] bit of a discussion has sprung up about the nature of heaven under Meleti’s recent article on Other Sheep/Great Crowd, I thought I’d pose a question that has recently come to my [...]

Comment by Tony on 2013-02-02 16:03:50

To Meleti,
Yes you are quite right, that Jesus is not the God to be worshiped as he never advocated at all any worship of himself.
Always did he point us to his Heavenly Father.
I was simply saying that Jesus was a God in his own right, being a creator himself who is an image of his Heavenly Father.
I do not believe that Jesus is part of the trinity, neither he nor any of his apostles supported that fact.
And we know from the scriptures that Jesus is in fact referred to as Michael, both in the book of Daniel and in Revelation, with a brief mention in the book of Jude.
The trinity however is another matter, because the exact nature of God as an entity is not really explained within the scriptures of the Bible, simply that he is a Spirit.
Yet he is indeed far more than that.
However it is very clear from the scriptures that the Jewish nation viewed God who they knew as Yahweh as a singular entity, an not a God-head or a composite God.
The Jewish nation along with the rest of the world were progressing with their religious belief system and as you peruse the Hebrew scriptures you will see this advancing truth about God.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-02 16:27:19

  I don't think that we can say with certainty that we "know" Jesus is Michael. There are certainly arguments in pro of this belief, but there are also unresolved questions that arise if we hold to it. For instance, why is Michael referred to as "one" of the foremost princes? Surely the role of the Word is unique. There are other issues as well, that permit us to consider Michael as separate from Jesus without diminishing our view of Jesus nor the role he plays in any way.
  But this is a topic for another post.

Comment by saraybach54Pauline on 2013-02-03 17:22:00

With respect...
If,
"In the beginning, The Word was with God, and The Word was a god..." (John 1:1)and,
"He is the image of God... the Firstborn of all creation... all things were created through Him and for Him."... etc etc...? (Colossians 1:16/17)
Then, "The Word", was co-creator with God - "The Word was a god..."
Michael is never referred to as a god... only, "The Archangel," and, "...ONE of the foremost princeS..." - plural.
And as for Jude 9, I'm sure The Word, as co-creator, and therefore the creator of the being who rebelled, would have had no problem putting Satan in his place...

• Reply by Tony on 2013-02-03 20:54:30

  Hi saraybach54Pauline, of course you are assuming that all the Bible is correct as being translated correctly over a period of time and also directly inspired by God.
  I have a different point of view as I do not believe the entire Bible to be directly inspired by God, rather that certain writings as of the prophets and Gospel writers were receiving inspiration from God in some of their writings.
  You know, the apostles were not correct in everything, and neither were the prophets as they were all imperfect men that were a product of their times and limited understanding of the nature of God and the universe at large.
  My point?
  Have a look at Revelation 12, does it mention there that Michael is actually an Archangel?
  7 And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war, [LITV]
  It is obvious from this scripture that Jesus is of someone of great authority who commands his own angels. These are his angels, and no reference to being God's angels.
  Of course what belongs to Michael ultimately belongs to God the Father as the Father is the originator of all life and all things.
  What about this scripture in the book of Daniel, is there any reference to Jesus being an Archangel?
  I'll quote the scriptures here for you to peruse.
  13 But the king of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty one days. But, lo, Michael, one of the first rulers, came to help me. And I stayed there with the kings of Persia.
  21 But I will tell you what is written in the Scripture of Truth. And no one makes himself strong with Me in these things except Michael your ruler. [LITV]
  Daniel 12
  1 ¶ And at that time, Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. [LITV]
  No mention of being an Archangel in any of these verses that I have quoted you.
  The only mention of Michael being an archangel is in the book of Jude, which is as it would appear is lifted straight out of the writings attributed to Enoch, of which is possibly from a Gnostic source at that.
  Jude
  9 But Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil, he argued about the body of Moses; he dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy, but said, "Let the Lord rebuke you!" Zech. 3:2
  And here lies that quandary.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-03 23:15:04

    Tony, this forum is for Jehovah's Witnesses who accept the entire Bible as God's inspired word. Since you do not believe this to be the case, this is probably not the forum for you. Any field of study has to start from some premise, and our premise for Bible research is that all scripture is inspired of God. If we try to research and draw life-altering conclusions while also believing that some parts of the Bible are not inspired, we are building on sand. How do we determine what parts are false and what are true? We'll be like the Mormons who believe the Bible is the word of God except where it is "poorly translated". And what is their basis for classifying a part as a bad translation? SImple. Any part that disagrees with their teachings from the Book of Mormon is a bad translation. Very convenient.
    No, no. It will not do. You have your freedom to believe what you will, but in keeping with our forum directive, we are looking for Bible researchers who accept the entire Bible as true. I'm sure there are other forums where your contributions would be appreciated.

Comment by Tony on 2013-02-04 02:02:56

How do we determine what is truth?
The "Spirit of Truth" of course.
That is why we were sent the "Spirit of Truth" to help us discern what is truth, from various writings such as in the Bible and ancient history and philosophy and science etc.
What, do you suppose that all "truth" is contained within the Bible?
What do we need the "Spirit of Truth" for then?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-05 16:18:03

  :)

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-02-05 17:19:59

  Tony,
  The Bible is the accurate Word of God, but there are many interpreters and many interpretations. That is why we need the Spirit of Truth.
  Apollos

Comment by Tony on 2013-02-04 20:13:07

Hello Meleti Vivlon,
I see that my last comment was censored by the moderator of this site.
Was not to your liking?
Truth will come about, regardless of how much censoring goes on.
Anyway, I guess it is time to stop posting on this site and so I take my leave and wish you all the best. I will not post here again, unless invited to do so.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-02-04 20:48:22

  As I mentioned in my previous comment and as is stipulated in our policy, this site is not a place for human philosophy, but for hard core Bible research. (Col. 2:8)
  You, of course, have freedom of speech. We all do. What none of us has is the right to be heard. That is a privilege extended by the listener to the speaker. An acceptable form of censorship is that of the listener turning a deaf ear.
  Those of us who participate in this forum have chosen not to listen to human philosophy or those who would discount the Bible as less than the inspired word of God. That is our freedom.
  I mean no offense, but we have different views on this matter. There are, of course, many sites that would welcome your viewpoint. This is simply not one of them.
  Be well.

  • Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-03-17 01:17:11

    To get back on topic, the new covenant doesn't include any who have an earthly hope,one of the conditions laid down is for a kingdom,it's not presumption to say that Jesus meant the heavenly kingdom,not a pet tiger and a house on the lake,if such a hope exsists then it's still to be revealed along with the covenanted arrangement to dispense said paradise.
    Tied in with that is that the only ressurection that's detailed is a heavenly one,basically the whole of 1Cor 15 which harmonises perfectly with Luk 20, a part of scripture that the GB has made a complete mess of.
    Any other type of ressurection is only hinted at ie Joh 5
    The other thing about these truths is once understood dismantle some of the most important JW doctrine.

  • Reply by Andres on 2017-08-26 06:42:42

    Tienes razón hermano meleti, aunque estamos alejados de la organización esto no debería alejarnos de la palabra de Jehová ni de nuestro señor y amo,Jesús. Es triste que muchos llegan a estar tan decepcionados de todos los años de mentiras dentro de la organización que aceptan filosofías humanas e incluso llegan al ateísmo; a mi me pasó; pero tuve el privilegio de conocer a muchos hermanos en Internet que encausaron mi camino y fortalecieron mi fe. Tu meleti eres uno de ellos .Gracias y ten paciencia que tal vez Tony recapacite...Está en ese proceso .tu sabes que la organización ha hecho tropezar gente muy valiosa

Comment by Isaiah’s Foreigners | Beroean Pickets on 2013-02-27 14:57:53

[...] a group of Christians with the hope of living on a paradise earth.  For an alternate view, see “Who’s Who? (Little Flock/Other Sheep)”)  The article [...]

Comment by 144,000 – Literal or Symbolic? | Beroean Pickets on 2013-03-18 11:04:40

[...] while the “other sheep” at John 10:16 refers to another group with an earthly hope.  (See Who’s Who? (Little Flock/Other Sheep)  Of course, this in itself doesn’t disprove the teaching of a two-tier reward system for [...]

Comment by Who Should Partake? | Beroean Pickets on 2013-05-22 16:05:41

[…] The Bible doesn’t teach that the Little Flock are a subset of Christians who are differentiated from the rest because they alone go to heaven; nor does it teach that the Other Sheep are only Christians with an earthly hope.  (See post: Who’s Who? (Little Flock/Other Sheep […]

Comment by Are We Apostates? | Beroean Pickets on 2014-05-22 00:08:49

[…] There are not two classes today, the heavenly class and those of the earthly class also called “other sheep” at John 10:16. […]

Comment by Hamilton Grey on 2015-06-24 08:57:18

Who are the Other Sheep?
"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."
—John 10:16
The words uttered at John 10:16 has greater significance for the “Great Crowd” than they realise. Knowing who the “OtherSheep” are will draw those of the “Great Crowd” closer to their mediator Jesus, and their heavenly father Jehovah God.
When considering John 10:16 was Jesus foretelling a future event approximately 2000 years in advance, the appearance of two distinct groups? One group receiving a heavenly calling contrasted to those with the hope of living on earth forever? Or rather, was he referring to prophecies which were about to be fulfilled in connection with the nations who would come to Jehovah in pure worship and have their sins forgiven on the basis of the ransom that his son paid, as the resurrected Jesus. Consider for example Jesus’ own words at Luke 24:46,47 (MSG): He said, “You can see now how it is written that the Messiah suffers, rises from the dead on the third day, and then a total life-change through the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed in his name to all nations -- starting from here, from Jerusalem!”
Jesus indicates the time was fast approaching when there would be no class distinction in his flock, his disciples must have puzzled over how those words of their Lord were going to be fulfilled. And, what a rebuke that was to the unbelieving Jews, who refused to listen to him and accept him as their fine shepherd. For now the Messiah not only rises from the dead for the lost sheep of Israel but also for all the nations as proclaimed by Jesus in Luke 24:46,47.
So how do we as God’s Household come to the conclusion that the “Other Sheep” equate to the “Great Crowd”? (John 10:16; Rev 7:9-10, 13-14)
The Modern Origin of Our Present Understanding
How did we come to believe that the “other sheep” of John 10:16 refers only to those who will live forever on earth? The book Isaiah’s Prophecy--Light for All Mankind II, published in 2001, said the following under the heading “A Great Crowd Runs to God’s Anointed”:
"Jesus’ disciples entertain one of two hopes. First, a “little flock” numbering 144,000 has been gathered—anointed Christians of both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds who are “the Israel of God” and have the hope of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom. (Luke 12:32; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 14:1) Second, in the last days, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” have manifested themselves. These have the hope of living forever on a paradise earth. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, this multitude—whose number is not foreordained—serve alongside the little flock, and both groups form “one flock” under “one shepherd.”—Revelation 7:9, 10; John 10:16. (ip-2 chap. 16 pp. 241-242 A Message of Hope for Downhearted Captives)
We should note here that until 1932 all baptized Jehovah’s witnesses were expected to partake of the Memorial emblems. (The name was adopted in 1931) In 1932 it was explained that there was a class of persons who were not considered Jehovah’s witnesses but had the “privilege” to associate with them and they had the hope of enjoying everlasting life on earth. They were referred to as the Jonadabs, who, it was believed, were prefigured by King Jehu’s associate Jehonadab (Jonadab). —see The Watchtower, August 15, 1934, page 249; also Proclaimers book, page 83.
Starting with the April 1, 1935 issues of The Watchtower there was this announcement: “Again The Watchtower reminds its readers that a convention of Jehovah’s witnesses and Jonadabs will be held at Washington, D.C., beginning May 30 and ending June 3, 1935.” The Proclaimers book states that “the Jonadabs eagerly awaited the convention.”
At this “historic” convention Judge Rutherford explained that the “great multitude,” foretold in Revelation 7:9-17, was made up of “the modern-day Jonadabs and that these Jonadabs had to show the same degree of faithfulness to Jehovah as the anointed.” (Proclaimers book, page 84)
With the identifying of the Jonadab class we see the emergence of our class distinction, between those who have the heavenly calling and those who look forward to living on earth. It was not until the July 1, 1942 issue of The Watchtower that the Jonadabs were also considered to be Jehovah’s witnesses and the term “Jonadabs” was eventually replaced with “the other sheep.”
Why were the “Jonadabs” originally not viewed as Jehovah’s witnesses? For the same reason they were referred to as Jonadabs to begin with. Much of the understanding in those years, and right up until the 1970’s, was based on prophetic patterns or parallelism. Says The Watchtower, August 15, 1972, pages 502-504, God Readjusts the Thinking of His People:
”Another thing that has given rise to questions is the use by Jehovah’s witnesses of parallels or prophetic types, applying these to circumstances and to groups or classes of people today. Many people who read the Bible view its accounts all as simply history, but when they begin to study with Jehovah’s witnesses a readjustment of viewpoint takes place as they see that there is more to the accounts than history.”
In connection with this reasoning the explanation concerning the Jonadab class goes like this:
“We are living through developments of history that parallel the situation in Jehonadab’s time ... Just as Jehu of old separated the true worshipers to be preserved from the worshipers of Baal to be executed, so the Greater Jehu today is identifying persons either for destruction or for preservation. How so? By their response to the message concerning God’s kingdom, which God is having preached “in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations.” (Matt. 24:14) In this way, those who reject God’s kingdom by Christ are identified as Jehovah’s enemies just as clearly as were those worshipers of Baal who put on their religious vestments.
Well, then, where do you stand? Is your heart upright toward God, as was Jehonadab’s? Remember, Jehonadab actually got into the chariot and rode with Jehu. He thereby publicly declared his support for the righteous executional work in which Jehu was engaged. Are you similarly in heart harmony with the executional work of Jesus Christ? Have you publicly declared that support?” — w68 6/15 pp. 358-359 A Man Whose Heart Was Upright.
According to this interpretation a “prophetic parallelism” Jehu, who was anointed by Jehovah, pictures Jesus, and by extension the anointed 144,000. And Jehonadab, who was not anointed but climbed onto the chariot driven by Jehu, pictures the Jonadab class, now more popularly known as “the other sheep.” The book Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for All Mankind II, chapter 17, pages 253-254, also says:
“In 1932 a deeper understanding of the prophetic drama of King Jehu of Israel and Jehonadab, a non-Israelite supporter, indicated how these other sheep act in support of Christ’s anointed brothers—just as Jehonadab went along and supported Jehu in his destruction of Baal worship. Finally, in 1935 the other sheep living during the time of the end of this system of things were recognized as being the great crowd seen in vision by the apostle John. This was first explained at the aforementioned convention in Washington, D.C., when Joseph F. Rutherford pointed to those with an earthly hope as ‘the great multitude.’”
As you can see from the above quotes there are no Scriptures offered, at any time, that make a distinction between “the other sheep” and those having the heavenly calling the little flock, and that would show from the term “other sheep” it is confined solely to those whose hope is to live forever on earth. The argument is based solely on “parallel or prophetic type” interpretation.
Does it really matter who the “other sheep” refers to? Very much so! Many of our teachings since 1935 have been based on the understanding of the identity of the other sheep, such as what the new covenant is; Jesus’ mediatorship; how we celebrate the Memorial; etc. By making a distinction between the “little flock” and the “other sheep” we have introduced class distinction. We pay lip service to the statement Jesus made that the two folds would become one flock, under one shepherd. How are they one flock when we teach that the “other sheep” are not included in the new covenant? How are they under the one shepherd when they are told Jesus is not their mediator? How are they one flock under the one shepherd when present at the Memorial of Christ’s death simply as onlookers? In reality, we have two flocks, the little one and a large one being presented as quite distinct. There is even suspicion towards anyone who professes to be of the little flock, unless they are at least eighty years old. Is that what Jesus was talking about? Have we not simply created two flocks instead of one from this “understanding”?
Who was Jesus Addressing as the Other Sheep?
The setting of John 10:16 is important in helping us determine the identity of the “other sheep.” Please consider the following quotes from our publications, one publication suggests Jesus was talking to his disciples, the other to the unbelieving Jews, which is correct?
The book The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, published in 1991, says this:
”Recently, Jesus had comforted his followers, saying: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” This little flock, which eventually numbers 144,000, comes into this new, or second, sheepfold. But Jesus goes on to observe: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
”Since the “other sheep” are “not of this fold,” they must be of another fold, a third one. These last two folds, or pens of sheep, have different destinies. The “little flock” in one fold will rule with Christ in heaven, and the “other sheep” in the other fold will live on the Paradise earth. Yet, despite being in two folds, the sheep have no jealousy, nor do they feel segregated, for as Jesus says, they “become one flock” under “one shepherd.” (chap. 80 The Sheepfolds and the Shepherd)
On the other hand, the book All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial, says:
"Again Jesus speaks to the Jews, this time concerning the fine shepherd, who calls his sheep by name and who surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep ‘that they might have life in abundance.’ He says: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (10:10, 16) He tells the Jews that no one can snatch the sheep out of the hand of his Father, and he says that he and his Father are one. Again they seek to stone him to death. In answer to their charge of blasphemy, he reminds them that in the book of Psalms, certain mighty ones of earth are referred to as “gods,” whereas he has referred to himself as God’s Son. (Ps. 82:6) He urges them at least to believe his works.—John 10:34." (p. 196 Bible Book Number 43—John)
When you read John 10, the context clearly indicates Jesus is speaking to the non believing Jews not his disciples; please take particular note of verses 19-21. Not only did they not accept him as their fine shepherd, they also accused him of blasphemy and were “[seeking] to stone him to death.” In fact, the account tells us, “Jesus answered them: 'I told YOU, and yet YOU do not believe. The works that I am doing in the name of my Father, these bear witness about me. But YOU do not believe, because YOU are none of my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.'” (John 10:25-27)
How likely is it that Jesus would tell those, who were “none of his sheep,” who wanted to “stone him to death,” that he had “other sheep” who would have the hope of living forever on a paradise earth, and become one flock, under one shepherd with them, while they made up the “little flock” who would have a heavenly destiny, ruling with him as kings? Not likely, his message to the non believing Jews was one of loss not gain!
The Jews, who were the lost sheep of the house of Israel and whom he was addressing on this occasion, did not exercise faith in him. They did not believe him, listen to him nor accept him as their fine shepherd. So Jesus told them: “YOU do not believe, because YOU are none of my sheep.” Yet, he says the “other sheep” who were not of this fold, whom he would bring, they would listen to his voice, and they would accept him as their shepherd.
The Jews as God’s Sheep
When Jesus sent forth his twelve apostle on a preaching tour he instructed them: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter into a Samaritan city; but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 10:5,6) Jesus said as much to a Phoenician woman: “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24) But, in contrast to the Jews, who as a whole did not believe in Jesus, this Gentile woman did exercise faith in him. Look how her humble attitude is in stark contrast to that of the Jews. The account about her tells us, “And, look! a Phoenician woman from those regions came out and cried aloud, saying: “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David. My daughter is badly demonized.” But he did not say a word in answer to her. So his disciples came up and began to request him: “Send her away; because she keeps crying out after us.” In answer he said: “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” When the woman came she began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, help me!” In answer he said: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to little dogs.” She said: “Yes, Lord; but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.” Then Jesus said in reply to her: “O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour on.” (Matthew 15:22-28)
In contrast to the Jews, the lost sheep of Israel, who wanted to stone Jesus to death for blasphemy, this Gentile woman “began doing obeisance to [Jesus],” calling him “Lord, Son of David.” Yes, she had “great faith,” as Jesus noted.
There was another occasion when a Gentile put the Jews to shame by his faith in Jesus. Concerning this man, an army officer, it says, “Jesus became amazed and said to those following him: “I tell YOU the truth, With no one in Israel have I found so great a faith.” You can read the account in Matthew 8:5-13.
Concerning the “other sheep” Jesus had said that “those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice.” When did he begin to bring these other sheep into his fold as one flock, was it to be 2000 years after his resurrection in 1935? To find the answer consider Matthew 28:19,20: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” This command was made by Jesus just after his resurrection and before he ascended to heaven, well before the proclaimed year of 1935 by Joseph F. Rutherford.
How strange his words must have sounded to his Jewish disciples, for as Peter said later to the Gentile Cornelius: “YOU well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to join himself to or approach a man of another race; and yet God has shown me I should call no man defiled or unclean. Hence I came, really without objection, when I was sent for.” Peter was “sent for” by an angel because it was the time for Jesus’ words concerning the “other sheep” to begin fulfillment, “those also I must bring.” Therefore he told Cornelius: “God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Acts 10:28,29,34,35)
We should understand one important fact at this point: Jehovah had always intended to turn his attention to the nations. It was not dependant on whether or not his own people remained faithful. As the apostle Paul writes, “Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: “By means of you all the nations will be blessed.” —Galatians 3:8.
Paul - an Apostle to the Nations
Even before Peter was sent to Cornelius Jesus chose a special apostle to help “bring in” those of the nations. The account in Acts says concerning Saul, who became the apostle Paul, “But the Lord said to [Ananias]: “Be on your way, because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel.” Here, Jesus mentions the two folds which would become one flock under him as the one shepherd, “the nations” and “the sons of Israel.” Paul was chosen to become an apostle to the nations. (Acts 9:15; Romans 11:13)
Remember that the Jews, whom Jesus had spoken to on the occasion when he mentioned the “other sheep,” had not listened to him and even charged him with blasphemy. Would Paul have greater success with the Jews? Take the example of what happened in Antioch. The Bible tells us, “When the Jews got sight of the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began blasphemously contradicting the things being spoken by Paul. And so, talking with boldness, Paul and Barnabas said: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to YOU (the Jews - this fold). Since YOU are thrusting it away from YOU and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations (the Gentiles - other sheep). In fact, Jehovah has laid commandment upon us in these words, ‘I have appointed you as a light of nations, for you to be a salvation to the extremity of the earth.” (Acts 13:45-47)
Also, those in Rome responded similarly. Luke tells us, “They now arranged for a day with him, and they came in greater numbers to him in his lodging place. And he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the kingdom of God and by using persuasion with them concerning Jesus from both the law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. And some began to believe the things said; others would not believe. So, because they were at disagreement with one another, they began to depart, while Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to YOUR forefathers, saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means understand; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they should never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back, and I should heal them.”’ Therefore let it be known to YOU that this, the means by which God saves, has been sent out to the nations; they will certainly listen to it.” (Acts 28:23-28) Do not Paul’s words ring harmoniously with Jesus words of John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
Yes, as Jesus had foretold, whereas his own people rejected him as their fine shepherd, the “other sheep” would listen to his voice and follow him. (John 10:16,27) And they did! “When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.” —Acts 13:48.
Jesus had mentioned the “other sheep” in connection with identifying himself as the fine shepherd and surrendering his soul on behalf of his sheep. He said, “I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep. The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees—and the wolf snatches them and scatters them— because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep. I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.” —John 10:11-15.
The sheep Jesus surrenders his soul in behalf of includes people of all the nations who exercise faith in him. As already mentioned, the apostle Paul had said, quoting from Isaiah 49:6, “I have appointed you as a light of nations, for you to be a salvation to the extremity of the earth.” Also, the apostle John writes, “And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.” (1 John 2:2; 1 Corinthians 15:3) Since Jesus included the “other sheep” for whom he would surrender his life in behalf of, they would include the nations and not just the natural Jews.
Paul, as Saul, had previously been a zealous Pharisee and a violent persecutor of Jewish Christians. Now he became just as zealous in his preaching to the nations. Concerning the book of Romans that he wrote, the book All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial says:
“With Romans we begin the 14 books of the Bible that the holy spirit inspired this former Pharisee, now a faithful servant of God, to write. By the time he wrote Romans, Paul had already completed two long preaching tours and was well along on the third. He had written five other inspired letters: First and Second Thessalonians, Galatians, and First and Second Corinthians. Yet it seems appropriate that in our modern Bibles, Romans precedes the others, since it discusses at length the new equality between Jews and non-Jews, the two classes to whom Paul preached. It explains a turning point in God’s dealings with his people and shows that the inspired Hebrew Scriptures had long foretold that the good news would be proclaimed also to the non-Jews.
Paul, using Tertius as secretary, laces rapid argument and an astounding number of Hebrew Scripture quotations into one of the most forceful books of the Christian Greek Scriptures. With remarkable beauty of language, he discusses the problems that arose when first-century Christian congregations were composed of both Jews and Greeks. Did Jews have priority because of being Abraham’s descendants? Did mature Christians, exercising their liberty from the Mosaic Law, have the right to stumble weaker Jewish brothers who still held to ancient customs? In this letter Paul firmly established that Jews and non-Jews are equal before God and that men are declared righteous, not through the Mosaic Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ and by God’s undeserved kindness. — si pp. 205-206 Bible Book Number 45—Romans (bold added)
Does the evidence not show that the Jews and non-Jews, the Gentiles, really became one flock under one shepherd, that there was no longer any distinction between the two and that they were “equal before God?” Is that not what Jesus said would be the case?
The “Other Sheep” Foretold in Prophecy
Jehovah had foretold through his prophets that he would turn his attention to the nations, who would comprise the “other sheep” of John 10:16. The account in Acts relates: “After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from of old.’” (Acts 15:13-18; Amos 9:11,12)
Here we have “those who remain of the men” (of the Jews) together with “people of all the nations,” (the other sheep), who would all be called by Jehovah’s name, in the “one flock” under the “one shepherd,” our Lord Jesus.
Here are some prophecies concerning the “other sheep” that Jesus would have been familiar with:
Psalm 22:27 “All the ends of the earth will remember and turn back to Jehovah. And all the families of the nations will bow down before you.”
Psalm 47:8 “God has become king over the nations. God himself has taken his seat upon his holy throne.”
Psalm 86:9 “All the nations whom you have made will themselves come, And they will bow down before you, O Jehovah, And will give glory to your name.”
Isaiah 2:2 “And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream.”
Isaiah 11:10 “And it must occur in that day that there will be the root of Jesse that will be standing up as a signal for the peoples. To him even the nations will turn inquiringly, and his resting-place must become glorious.”
Zephaniah 2:11 “Jehovah will be fear-inspiring against them; for he will certainly emaciate all the gods of the earth, and people will bow down to him, each one from his place, all the islands of the nations.”
Haggai 2:7 “‘And I will rock all the nations, and the desirable things of all the nations must come in; and I will fill this house with glory,’ Jehovah of armies has said.”
Zechariah 8:23 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’”
Isaiah 49:6 And he proceeded to say: “It has been more than a trivial matter for you to become my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back even the safeguarded ones of Israel; I also have given you for a light of the nations, that my salvation may come to be to the extremity of the earth.”
And at Galatians 3:8 Paul draws attention to the fact that God always had the nations in mind when he made the covenant with Abraham: “Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: “By means of you all the nations will be blessed.”’
Consider the above scripture of Isaiah 49:6, the one Paul was quoting to the Jews. Who is the foretold “servant” spoken of there?
The Watchtower of December 15, 1998, on page 19 says this: “In further fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy, Jehovah gave his “servant” Jesus as “a light of the nations, that [God’s] salvation may come to be to the extremity of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6, 8.)”
The Watchtower identifies Jesus as that servant who would be the one to not only “raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back even the safeguarded ones of Israel,” but would also be “a light of the nations, that [God’s] salvation may come to be to the extremity of the earth.” Is that not exactly what Jesus said he would do at John 10:16? Does Isaiah 49:6 not foretell the bringing in of the “other sheep?” (compare also Isaiah 42:1- 4,6,7; Matthew 12:18-21) That is why he commissioned his Jewish disciples to make disciples of people of all the nations. It is to these prophecies, besides many others, that Jesus was referring when he said, “I have other sheep (the Gentiles), which are not of this fold (the Jewish fold); those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” Developments within three and a half years of his death and resurrection prove that.
The “Other Sheep” and the Heavenly Calling
Cornelius was the first Gentile, the first one of the “other sheep,” to be invited for the heavenly calling. He was the first of the wild branches to be grafted into the domestic olive tree. (Romans 11:13-24) Hence, some of the “other sheep” are among those who will rule with Christ in his heavenly kingdom.
The scripture in Ephesians 2:11-18 cannot make the relationship of the “other sheep” and its fulfillment any clearer. This is how Paul, the apostle to the nations, sums it up:
“Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” YOU were called by that which is called “circumcision” made in the flesh with hands — that YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and YOU had no hope and were without God in the world. But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit.”
It is to them, the Ephesians, who “were people of the nations . . . without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise,” that Paul writes, “and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:6) Therefore, it is clear that the “other sheep,” people of the nations, are among those who are seated with the natural Jewish apostles and disciples in the heavenly places; for Christ reconciled both folds of peoples in one body to God, thus making them one flock under one shepherd.
John 10:16
Break down of John 10:16 verse by verse with verifying scriptures:
And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;
“YOU were people of the nations as to flesh;. . .without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise” (Ephesians 2:11,12)
those also I must bring,
“this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations” (Acts 9:15)
“Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations” (Romans 11:13)
“But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ.” (Ephesians 2:13)
and they will listen to my voice,
“When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.” (Acts 13:48)
“the means by which God saves, has been sent out to the nations; they will certainly listen to it.” (Acts 28:28)
and they will become one flock, one shepherd.
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)
“For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him.” (Romans 10:12)
“By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God . . . through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit “ (Ephesians 2:15,16,18)
Jesus is the shepherd of this one flock.
“Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus, equip YOU with every good thing to do his will, performing in us through Jesus Christ that which is well-pleasing in his sight. . .” (Hebrews 13:20)
“For YOU were like sheep, going astray; but now YOU have returned to the shepherd and overseer of YOUR souls.” (1 Peter 2:25)
“because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. . . .” (Rev. 7:17)
Summary
The scriptures nowhere indicate that Jesus was making a distinction between two hopes or destinies when he referred to the “other sheep.” There are no parallel scriptures to support that conclusion, such as there are concerning having its fulfillment in connection with the Gentiles, people of the nations. As already mentioned, in view of who he was addressing, that would have been unreasonable. Rather than differentiating between the two hopes, as we do, the scriptures speak of the “one hope,” just as there is only “one body ... one spirit ... one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all,” and we might add “one flock.” (Ephesians 4:4,5)
The “one hope” we all share is that “Christ died for us [and we] have been declared righteous now by his blood ... saved through him from wrath” and have become “reconciled to God through the death of his Son, ... and shall be saved by his life.” (Romans 5:8-10) As Paul writes: “For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16) The one hope, the one good news we preach, is as Jesus said at John 3:16, that “God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” How Jehovah will go about blessing “everyone exercising faith in him,” and how all creation “will be set free from enslavement to corruption,” is just a detail, not a separate hope. (Romans 8:19-22)
Part of that detail is that Jehovah has chosen a limited number, a little flock, “joint heirs with Christ,” to rule with his Son in his kingdom, the “administration” by means of which he will “gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth.” (Luke 12:32; Romans 8:17; Ephesians 1:10) He started the choosing with the twelve apostles, who were Jews, and continued to add to them, so that at Pentecost there were 120 who received the outpouring of the holy spirit. Three and a half years later the first one of “the other sheep,” Cornelius, was added to that number, and Jehovah no longer made a distinction between the Jews and people of the nations. They had become one flock, as Jesus had promised. That God would turn his attention to the nations should not have been a surprise to the Jews, for God’s promise to Abraham included blessings for “all nations.” (Genesis 22:18)
The identity of the “Other Sheep” is critical in understanding their relationship with Jesus and Jehovah, as this means Jesus is their mediator and they are declared righteous by means of the ransom sacrifice. These ones are also included in the New Covenant not merely observers. Surely knowing these intimate details can only bring the Other Sheep closer to their Savour and Heavenly Father!
Although some of the “other sheep” have been chosen by God to rule with his Son in his heavenly kingdom, the vast majority of them will share in transforming this earth into the paradise God meant it to be, along with God’s original sheep, the Jews. Among them will be the faithful men and women of old that Paul partially lists in Hebrews chapter 11.
Article sourced from from:
http://www.perimeno.ca/Index_A.htm

Comment by Chris on 2018-02-25 04:48:27

The little flock the remnants of the tribes of Israel after being sifted and winnowed who believe Jesus was their Messiah. The rest of us are gentiles saved maybe? Any thoughts?

Comment by Dwayne on 2020-11-21 14:51:56

Good day All,

I browsed through the comments and saw that there were comments that reflected my understanding of the meaning of the passages referenced, but lacking the sharp focus that I would have wished for, thus I was moved to submit the comment below. I'm not citing all the relevant scriptures because I'm confident that most reading the comments will be thoroughly familiar with the scriptures that I will be alluding to.

When Jesus stated the he had other sheep not of this fold, he meant that there would be those who would come to him and become spirit anointed be means to the preaching of the Good News (the law of Christ), as opposed to those that would come to him by means of the Law of Moses (which included proselytes)- 'the law has become a tutor leading to Christ'-. These would all become one flock with one hope, IE. life in heaven-aka Christians. Please note that the opportunity to become christian was extended to the gentiles lastly, as per prophecy
Jesus's word's at John 10:16 are not referring to those that are have everlasting life on earth-aka non Christians who put (exercise ) faith in Jesus.

If an exhaustive exegetical treatment of this topic is needed I'll be happy to provide one when I have more time.

Thanks.