Remember Those Who Instructed You

Comment by on 2013-10-13 13:09:45

Russell learned his stuff from Barbour, Storrs and others. Rutherford just manipulated the whole thing and made the money making scam bigger and now the WTS is cashing in big money.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-13 14:05:05

  If you are going to accuse anyone of engaging in a "money making scam", you will have to provide proof. Please do so, or retract the comment.

  • Reply by JimmyG on 2013-10-15 03:36:58

    Readers can make their own minds up whether the following are 'scams' or not:
    1. The WT organisation appeared on the guest list of the 2012 hedge fund conference in London. Whether or not it actually invests any of its wealth in hedge funds cannot be proven, but you have to ask why was it invited to attend?
    2. The sale of all its New York real estate is purported to total over one billion US dollars. Just recently a cluster of buildings, including the Adams Street building netted $375,000,000. While acquiring these mind boggling amounts of cash, the call has gone out for volunteer workers to help build the new HQ in Warwick. The labour will cost the WT nothing and no doubt the building materials will be obtained at bargain rates through JWs who are in the building trade.
    3. It's now possible to make donations to the WT from the US, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands using a credit card. Over the years, the WT has warned about the use of credit cards and amassing debt. Note too the lampooning of other religions over the years for encouraging donations via credit cards, in the following references: g73 12/8 p29 and g03 8/8 p28
    Remember all the WT's real estate has been accumulated through voluntary donations and hard work of rank and file JWs over the decades. You have to wonder at the morality of what the WT leadership is doing. The worst thing is, the majority of JWs have no idea of what's going on.

• Reply by Prophecy-Believer on 2013-10-24 13:15:46

  Hi everyone, my name is Prophecy-Believer, and this is my first post on this board. I would like to raise a question for thought dealing with Zechariah 8:23.
  "This is what Jehovah of armies says, 'In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations' will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: "We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people."'" (Zechariah 8:23 - NWT 2013 release)
  My question is this, who do you see today as fulfilling this prophecy? Or, who do you think will fulfill this prophecy in the future as the man who has the robe that the ten men grab hold of?
  Looking forward to hearing comments from you.
  Prophecy-Believer

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-25 16:43:25

    Greetings Prophecy-Believer,
    That is an excellent question. Our official position is that the 10 men are members of the other sheep class who have an earthly hope, grasping hold of the metaphorical skirt of the anointed Christians making up spiritual Israel. These ones bow down to the anointed ones in a spiritual sense and minster to them. (Revelation-Its Grand Climax At Hand!, p. 60, 61; w88 1/1, p. 16; Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986), p. 88, 89)
    Of course, that can't be the fulfillment unless we are willing to accept that the vast majority of Christians are not God's sons, something for which there is no scriptural support. So the fulfillment must lie elsewhere.
    The context appears to be talking about the spread of Christianity. This literally started with the Jews, so that may be the fulfillment. However, all Christians constitute the Israel of God, so it would continue to apply down through the ages, the people of the nations gathering to the Jew (becoming Christians) and therefore becoming the Jew to which more are gathered.
    We often get ourselves into hot water when we try to over-apply a prophetic fulfillment, especially when we try to attach a time frame to it. Simply put, this seems to be a prophecy foretelling the gathering of the gentiles into the Christian congregation.

Comment by anderestimme on 2013-10-13 17:29:12

In any case, the point is fallacious. If the individual brother or sister who studied with me were to start behaving in an unchristian manner, should I continue to associate with him or her? It is entirely possible for the person - or the institution - that taught us so many beautiful truths about Jehovah and his word to wander off the straight and narrow. Are we not accountable to Jehovah for what we, as individuals, do?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-13 17:43:50

  A viewpoint I never considered before; yet so obvious. How well conditioned we are.

Comment by Chris on 2013-10-13 20:11:16

Good point. Which brings us to their "we are just imperfect men being used by Jehovah" argument, which once again pushes the blame away from themselves.
Unfortunately they are so besotted with their own perceived special standing before Jehovah that they think they can lie in His name and He will overlook it.
Despite Mose's long record of faithfulness when he acted rashly at Meribah he was punished. The WTS has done much much more than act rashly, so do we imagine their punishment to be any different?
Sometimes I find myself hit by a wave of astonishment that I believed these men for so long! All those statements of Jesus relating to truth, blindness, the Pharisees etc start to take on a depth & reality of meaning that I can only be truly grateful to Jehovah and Jesus for.........not the WTS!

Comment by Eddie on 2013-10-13 21:27:02

DONT BE DUMB!!!!! There has always been A GOVERNING BODY since 33 C.E. Just not the Faithful Slave YET. No need to get all weird and negative about the situation here. Lol!

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-13 23:34:49

  It is inappropriate and unchristian to be insulting. It is even worse when you do not check your facts. We've shown both in posts and comments on this forum that there is no proof for the belief in a first century Governing Body. If you believe we are wrong, then by all means, present your evidence. Unsubstantiated opinions are of little value.

Comment by Andronicus on 2013-10-14 13:33:55

Dosen't Governing Body imply the act of governing or ruling over us? Sounds more like a faithful and discreet master rather than a faithful and discreet slave.

Comment by on 2013-10-15 13:19:47

Great comment Jimmy G. I’d just like to add another point. In 2001 the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York was listed among the top forty revenue-generating companies in New York City, reporting an annual revenue of about 951 million US dollars according to Wikipedia.

• Reply by anderestimme on 2013-10-16 14:22:16

  To both of you: Who, exactly, is living in obscene opulence off of those funds? Or are large sums of money inherently bad?

  • Reply by JimmyG on 2013-10-16 16:20:53

    I did say it was up to the readers to decide for themselves whether these were 'scams' or not. Maybe, though, I could ask:
    1. What type of accommodation is to be constructed for GB members in comparison to the rank and file bethel workers? If all are slaves of God there should be no difference at all.
    2. 'The large sums of money' are the voluntary donations of JWs- it is not their personal fortunes. JWs contribute to a so called 'worldwide work', but there is no transparency as to how these funds are used. How is it used- is part of it being used to pay for things they don't want the average JW to know about? For example, legal costs for defending child abuse cases or paying off child abuse victims to stop cases going to court?
    3. If Jesus was on earth right now, can anyone picture him encouraging the stockpiling of wealth and real estate holdings? He didn't even have anywhere to lay his head.at the end of each day.

    • Reply by Andronicus on 2013-10-23 14:01:25

      I found it interesting, JimmyG, how many of the items for the new display mentioned at the Annual Meeting were donated by members or former members of the Bethel family. Some had items they had purchased and I thought to myself, “Where did they get the dough?”

Comment by Observer17 on 2013-10-16 13:29:55

[Comment removed by moderator]

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-17 08:28:29

  While we appreciate your sentiments, Observer17. The purpose of this site is to deepen our understanding of scripture with a view to drawing closer to Jesus and our Father, Jehovah on an individual level. Like C.T. Russell in his early years, we believe that any type of human leadership will inevitably lead to the corruption of Christianity. One is our leader and he rules over us individually, not through an administrative hierarchy. (This, actually, would make an excellent subject for future study.) So while we sympathize with you on many levels, we felt it best to remove your comment to avoid sending our forum in a different direction than that originally intended.
  Thank you for your support.

Comment by emilyjeff on 2013-10-17 10:32:50

I noticed on the new video, World Headquarters – History is Being Rewritten, that is up on the jw.org site, treats this move as if it were something ordained by Jehovah. In fact Guy Pierce of the GB stated at the 2011 Annual Meeting “Although we are not yet certain of Jehovah’s will regarding Warwick, we are proceeding to develop the site with the intention of relocating the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses there.” Apparently there is no uncertainty now. However, although repeatedly saying it is God’s will no actual reason, Biblical or otherwise is offered. I am left wondering if the sale of their holdings in Brooklyn for over a billion dollars has anything to do with it. On the video Mark Sanderson remarks on how he was overwhelmed by the beauty of the place (Warwick) and how much the “family” is going to love living at Warwick. I thought all of us were part of Jehovah’s family, not just the Bethel family. Unfortunately, although the entire JW family is paying for this historic move only a small segment of JW’s will get to enjoy the beauty of Warwick. I wouldn’t mind living in Warwick either, but I’m afraid I can’t afford to.
It is claimed on this video that doing close to a million and half square feet of construction in less than four years will not be done without Jehovah’s spirit. That is a fine sentiment but the Empire State building, built in the early 1930’s, has 85 stories of commercial and office space representing 2,158,000 sq ft and was completed in one year and 45 days. I don’t think you can say that Jehovah spirit was involved in putting up the Empire State building.

• Reply by JimmyG on 2013-10-17 16:26:51

  Maybe Guy Pierce who was not certain 2 years ago of Jehovah's will regarding Warwick, is now certain because an angel transmitted this information to him invisibly (as believed by Rutherford in the 1930s)?

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-17 16:44:12

I find the fact that Rutherford claimed that the work was guided by angels rather than holy spirit troubling, especially in light of Paul's warning at Gal. 1:8

Comment by kev c on 2013-10-17 18:35:13

To be honest this whole line of resoning seems wrong to me. Lets reason who should we be grateful to for revealing wonderful truths about god and his purposes. John 1 v18. Colossians 2 v 2 to 4. Lets think logically if we find someone tells the truth even a great many times does that mean that we can be sure that they do every time. 1 thessalonians 5 v21. James 3 v2. With regard to obedience to gods channel of communication the brothers very often qoute hebrews 13 v17. But its my understaning that the greek word for obedience in that text carries the thouht of obedience by persuasion. Or to convince by argument true or false. See strongs greek lexicon. So its not just a case of blindly accepting everything we are told. Those teaching us have a duty to reason with us from the scriptures just as paul did acts 17 v 2 and 3 then will we be ready to believe and be obedient. However im still conviced that its important not to get sidetracked by these issues see galatians 5 v 6.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-18 00:14:00

  I concur. Really, all gratitude should go to God. However, it is instructive to turn the very logic used to bolster obedience for the Governing Body back on itself. Empirically, the logic is flawed. However, they are looking at things very subjectively. Their premise is that the one who originally taught you important truths merits special consideration, and more than that, your obedience. This is unscriptural and nonsensical, but many witnesses actually accept this premise as valid. I was attempting to show that even granting their premise, we do not owe them what they ask for, because they were not the ones who originally taught any of us these truths we hold so dear. So even within its restrictive framework, their argument doesn't hold water.
  You're right about Hebrews 13:17. Actually, we covered that in a past post. (See http://meletivivlon.com/2013/01/09/to-obey-or-not-to-obey-that-is-the-question/)

Comment by reverse3ngine3r on 2013-10-18 23:26:46

Faithful and Discreet Slave Identified by God After Divine Temple Judgment
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The Governing Body Popes and the Bethel Inquisition Fulfills Signal Prophecy Leading to Final Temple Judgment
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The Total World Judgment “The Judgment” Begins With Jehovah’s Witnesses
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