Par. 8 – “Further, before being appointed, they demonstrated that they had a clear understanding of the Scriptures and that they were qualified to teach what is healthful.” I wish that this idyllic statement were true. Having sat in countless elders meetings, I can attest that in many instances the elders often do not use the Bible during elders meetings to arrive at decisions. In a good body, there will be one or two who are adept at using the Bible aright, and who will bring the Scriptures into the discussion to help the rest reason on a principle. However, the most frequent influence determining the direction taken on an issue is the force of personality of one or two members of the body. Often, the elders are not even aware of the principles in our own publications, such as the Shepherd the Flock of God book. Thus, it is not just Bible principles that are frequently overlooked, but the Organization’s own guidelines and rules. In my lifetime, I have served in many places in this country as well as outside of the United States, and I’ve worked shoulder-to-shoulder with some really fine spiritual men, but I can attest that the idea that all elders—or that even the majority of elders—have “a clear understanding of the Scriptures” is at best wishful thinking.
Par. 9, 10 – “Through his organization, Jehovah provides an abundance of spiritual food…” I really wish this were true. I wish I could go to the meetings and delve into the “deep things of God”. I wish that our 30-minute Congregation Bible Study was a true study of the Scriptures. The recent change to the Draw Close to Jehovah book is a vast improvement over our previous study of the organization, but still, we do not get deep into things. Instead, we rehash what has been taught countless times before. We use the excuse that these are reminders that we need to hear repeatedly. I used to buy that excuse, but no more. I’ve seen what can be accomplished and I wish all my brothers could experience the freedom I’ve enjoyed these past months on this forum. The exchange of encouragement and shared Bible research has helped me to learn more Scriptural truths than I’ve gotten from the past several decades of regular meeting attendance.
Jehovah provides an abundance of spiritual food, Yes. But its source is his inspired Word, not the publications of any organization or religion. Let’s give credit where credit is due.
Par. 11 – “Such individuals may reason: ‘They are imperfect humans just like us. Why should we listen to their counsel?’ Truth be told, we shouldn’t. We should listen to God’s counsel as expressed through the elders. If the counsel we get is not in accord with the Bible, then we shouldn’t listen to it. Whether the elder is a shining example of Christian spirituality or a man who is an utter reprobate should make no difference. Jehovah used wicked Caiaphas to speak an inspired warning not because he was worthy, but because of his appointed office as high priest. (John 11:49) So we can ignore the messenger but apply the message; assuming it comes from God.
Par. 12, 13 – These paragraphs, like the rest of the study, are full of fine principles. However, there is a disconnect in the application of these principles to the congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. True, David and many other “overseers” of Jehovah’s people had serious flaws. However, when those flaws were pointed out to them by those under their care, these men—who had the power of life and death—listened humbly. David was in a murderous rage but listened to the voice of a woman and so was saved from sin. He was not concerned that perhaps this made him look weak before his men. He did not view this as an attack on his authority; as a presumptuous or rebellious act on her part, or as a sign of disrespect. (1 Sam. 25:1-35) How often is that the case today? Could you approach any of your elders to give them counsel when you have seen them going astray? Would you do so completely without any fear of reprisal? If so, you have a wonderful body of elders and should cherish them.
Par. 14, 15 – “Obedience to those who today are taking the lead among us is vital.” The use of the word “vital” here, based on the context, fits with this definition from the Shorter Oxford Dictionary: “Essential to the existence of something; absolutely indispensable or necessary; extremely important, crucial.” Based on the last week’s article, as well as what is said here concerning Moses, obedience to the elders is or will be a matter of life and death.
If this is what Jehovah intended all along, one must wonder why he inspired Paul to write Hebrews 13:17—the only scripture that discusses obedience to those taking the lead—the way he did. There is a Greek word, peitharcheó, which means “obey” just as its English counterpart. You’ll find it at Acts 5:29. Then there is a related Greek word, peithó, which means “urge, be persuaded, have confidence”. That’s the word we incorrectly translate as “obey” in Hebrews 13:17. (For a fuller discussion, see To Obey or Not to Obey—That Is the Question.)
We have often used Moses as a counterpart to the Governing Body. Those who rebelled against Moses or who murmured against him are likened to those who question the absolute authority of the present-day Governing Body. There is indeed a Scriptural counterpart to Moses: Jesus Christ, the Greater Moses. He is the head of the congregation. Moses did give vital—read, life-saving—direction to the Israelites as the paragraph explains. However, the 10th plague referred to in the paragraph came after nine others. Nine reasons to know and believe that God was speaking through Moses. He was a great prophet. He never prophesied falsely. It is a presumptuous affront to all that he represents to compare the leadership of our Organization from 1919 onward to him. We have an unbroken string of failed and failing prophecies. We have none of the credentials of Moses. It is true, as the paragraph states, that Jehovah has always spoken to his people through the mouth of some man, some prophet. Never through the mouth of a committee of prophets however. Always an individual. And there is no Bible account of any prophet proclaiming himself to be a prophet before the fact. No true prophet has ever come forward and said, “I do not now speak under inspiration and Jehovah has never spoken to me, but sometime in the future, Jehovah will and you had better listen to me then, or you will die.”
Still, these words in The Watchtower may well inspire fear in the minds of many of the faithful. “If he doesn’t speak through the Governing Body then who will he speak through?”, some will reason. Let us not presume to know what Jehovah intends to do because we can’t see an alternative. However, if you need some form of reassurance, consider this historical incident from the early Christian congregation:
"But while we were remaining quite a number of days, a certain prophet named Ag′a·bus came down from Ju·de′a, 11 and he came to us and took up the girdle of Paul, bound his own feet and hands and said: “Thus says the holy spirit, ‘The man to whom this girdle belongs the Jews will bind in this manner in Jerusalem and deliver into the hands of people of the nations.’” (Acts 21:10, 11)
Agabus was no Governing Body member, but he was known as a prophet. Jesus did not use Paul to reveal this prophecy, even though Paul was a Bible writer and (according to our teaching) a member of the first century governing body. So why did Jesus use Agabus? Because that’s the way he does things, just as his Father did throughout Israelite times. If Agabus had proclaimed prophecies that failed to come true—as we have done repeatedly in our history—do you suppose Jesus would have used him? In that case, how could the brothers have known that this time wouldn’t be a repeat of his past failures? No, he was known to be a prophet for good reason—he was a true prophet. Hence, they believed him.
“But Jehovah doesn’t raise up prophets today like he did back then”, some will counter.
Who is to know what Jehovah will do. For centuries prior to the time of Christ, no prophet is recorded as being used. Jehovah has raised up prophets when it suits him to do so, and one thing is consistent: Whenever he raises up a prophet, he invests him or her with undeniable credentials.
Paragraph 15 says, “Very likely, you can think of numerous other occasions in Bible history when Jehovah provided life-saving instructions through human or angelic representatives. In all these cases, God saw fit to delegate authority. Messengers spoke in his name, and they told his people what they needed to do in order to survive a crisis. Can we not imagine that Jehovah might do something similar at Armageddon? Naturally, any elders today who are delegated the responsibility of representing Jehovah or his organization….”
How subtly we slip in our teaching, bypassing reason. Jehovah didn’t delegate authority. The prophet was a messenger, one who carried a message, not one in authority. Even when the angels were used as his mouthpiece, they gave instructions, but did not assume command. Otherwise, there would have been no test of faith.
Perhaps Jehovah will again use angelic representatives. It is the angels, not any organization of men, who are going to gather the wheat from the weeds. (Mat. 13:41) Or perhaps he will use men such as those taking the lead among us. However, following the perfect pattern of inspired words, he will first invest such men with unmistakable credentials of his divine backing. If he chooses to do that, then following the age-old pattern, the men will convey Jehovah’s word to us but will not have any special authority over us. They will urge and persuade us to act (peithó) but it will be up to each one of us to follow that urging; to have confidence in their persuasion; and so to make our own choice as an act of faith.
Frankly, this whole direction we’re taking worries me deeply. There have been many cult leaders who have risen up and mislead many, causing great harm, even death. It is easy to dismiss such concerns as unrealistic paranoia. We may feel we are above such things. After all, this is Jehovah’s organization. Yet, we have the prophetic word of our Lord Jesus to dwell on.
“Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.” (Matthew 24:23, 24)
If and when there is some impractical, non-strategic direction from God coming through the Governing Body, let us remember the above words and apply John’s counsel:
“Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” (1 John 4:1)
Whatever we are told to do must conform to God’s word in every way. Jesus, the Great Shepherd, will not leave his flock wandering blindly. If the “inspired direction” goes against what we already know to be true, then we must not doubt nor let fear cloud our judgment. In such a case, we must remember that it is ‘with presumptuousness that the prophet speaks. We must not get frightened at him.’ (Deuteronomy 18:22)
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Comment by Jude on 2014-01-20 20:43:57
“Through his organization, Jehovah provides an abundance of spiritual food…”
Compare the above statement with this inspired statement:
"As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh." - Ecclesiastes 12:12
The idea that Jehovah would inspire the writing of 66 books that are perfectly sound in doctrine without any errors only to turn around and require us to depend on a fallible organization with fallible explanations of the said perfect bible, seems to be ridiculous and an utter defeat of the purpose of inspiring the writing of a perfect book to begin with. Why? Because the value of the bible's doctrinal soundness is negated by the fallibility of the organization on whom we must rely to explain it to us. This is why the teaching that we cannot understand the bible apart from the organization has to be false propaganda.
Another thing: If we cannot understand the bible without the organization then how do we, like the Beroeans, use the bible prove to ourselves that what we are being taught by the organization is scriptural? We are necessarily in a situation where the organization tells us what the bible means and for us to use the bible to verify it would mean that we would have to rely on the very self-same organization's interpretation of the bible texts that they use to prove their teaching. How's that for objective verification?
To illustrate my point, Imagine going to a store to buy a product sold by weight and the store keeper tells you that the scale at the store can only be correctly understood by him so all must look to him for direction when reading the scale. He weighs out the product to you and you ask him how can you verify that he's not robbing you. He tells you to check the scale yourself - the same scale he says that only he can understand. So when you check the scale and you see you're getting less than you paid for he says to you you're wrong because you're interpreting the scale the wrong way and he then proceeds to interpret the scale the "correct" way as saying that you're getting the right amount. Conflict of interest much?
So when an organization says in one breath that no one can truly understand the bible without their direction and then in another breath invites people to be like the Beroeans by comparing their teachings with the bible - really THEIR interpretations of the bible which are guaranteed to paint THEIR teachings as true - then you know some serious conflict of interest and lack of objectivity is involved.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-21 00:27:15
Very well put, Jude. A line of reasoning I hadn't considered before. Thank you.
Reply by on 2014-01-21 15:27:04
A brother calls the elders and tells them he's been involved in wrongdoing. We meet with the brother and read James 5:14, 15 to him. Then we tell him him we're going to have to form a judicial committee to determine his repentant attitude. Well, we determine he's not repentant and he's disfellowshipped. he's probably thinking, "Hey, should have kept my big mouth shut!"
Reply by Observer 17 on 2014-01-21 14:10:02
Excellent, excellent, excellent illustration, "Jude," to make your point! )
I dare say, maybe 80% or more of the brotherhood of Jehovah's Witnesses around the world, or anyone who shops regularly at their local grocery store for that matter, could surely relate to your fabulous illustration and fitting it with a critical analysis of Acts 17:11 [being a "beroean"] the original intent of the verse, and how Watchtower Leadership unique viewpoint of it, have effectively stripped the true meaning of the verse down, and thus kept the "key of knowledge" away from the brothers, as the Pharisees did in Jesus' day. (Luke 11:52)
I dare say, your post, could potentially have opened, "every [mental] door" that needs to be opened, in view of the dastardly, diabolical information and its intent, revealed in paragraph #17 of the already infamous [on the net] "7 Shepherds 8 Dukes" article released in the November 15th, 2013 issue for study.
Great job! :)
Your revealing post in my opinion, could greatly help this bible discussion board here, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses around the world, immensely, I think if they pay heed to it.
I especially like the part where you said:
"To illustrate my point, Imagine going to a store to buy a product sold by weight and the store keeper tells you that the scale at the store can only be correctly understood by him so all must look to him for direction when reading the scale. He weighs out the product to you and you ask him how can you verify that he’s not robbing you. He tells you to check the scale yourself – the same scale he says that only he can understand. So when you check the scale and you see you’re getting less than you paid for he says to you you’re wrong because you’re interpreting the scale the wrong way and he then proceeds to interpret the scale the “correct” way as saying that you’re getting the right amount. Conflict of interest much?"
Well, what shopping mother could not relate to such an illustration, going to the supermarket and having to "do business" with the butcher at the meat counter on a regular basis.
Imagine him [the butcher] saying, he was the only person allowed by the store to "interpret the data" on their special electronic scales, which is always used to weight the meat [the product]. Imagine the housewife "sheepishly" & continually paying his special "price" for this product, repeatedly over a long period of time. Imagine the husband of the wife, constantly complaining about these "special" high prices being charged each week at this "special" grocery store too. Sooner or later, the husband or somebody is going to recommend changing grocery stores or something, because of these prices and all are, simply too high.
Would a sensible person continue doing this, and paying these high prices, all the time feeling they are being continually "ripped-off"?
Would they keep going to that particular grocery store, with the "special" electronic scales to weight the meat?
In this case, someone [GB/Watchtower Society] wants your complete "exclusive devotion" it seems, your complete loyalty, your complete obedience and your adoration with it, something that strangely you feel should maybe, just maybe should be going only to God Almighty, instead. (See Exodus 20:5; Isaiah 42:8) I'd say, those are indeed, very, very high prices to pay, I think, for this product!
Again, great ilustration! :)
However "Jude," if you want to take this to the "next level," well, email me. With that type of reasoning on your part, you could go really, really far. :)
Take care. :)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-21 14:25:14
But Observer17, it is not our desire to go "really, really far". It is our desire to follow the Christ wherever he leads and manifest humility. (Mat. 23:11)
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-21 14:50:30
Amen Meleti. I know Observer17 that you were not directly addressing me … what exactly is the next level ? I am curious …..
Reply by Observer 17 on 2014-01-21 14:59:10
If you are curious ... email me. :)
Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-01-26 15:35:03
Observer17
I am personally not comfortable with your encouraging the readers to get in touch in order to “take it to the next level”. I am aware of some of the information you point people to if they are curious enough to email you. I am going to request that Meleti removes your email address from comments, and perhaps considers a policy of not allowing email addresses to be posted.
To our readers: whilst it would be hypocritical to suggest to you what you should or should not consider on the internet, I would like to warn you that in my view observer17 is promoting a sect.
“As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.” (Titus 3:10,11)
No offense intended, and I do not take lightly the matter of free speech. I just don't think this site should be a springboard into some of the views that are being promoted by observer17.
ApollosReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-26 15:51:51
I respect your viewpoint on this Apollos. We don't want to act as those in the Organization who presume to judge for others and dictate who we should and should not associate with. The Bible gives direction for each one to apply in his or her own personal life. Nevertheless, it would be inappropriate for us to serve as a conduit for any activity we do not deem appropriate.
I've removed the emails. Observer17, we mean no offense.Reply by Observer17 on 2014-01-26 16:41:58
none taken. :)
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-01-26 16:47:40
"For there must also be sects among you, that the persons approved may also become manifest among you." (1 Corinthians 11:19)
Just my 2 cents,
swReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-26 17:01:35
:)
Reply by anderestimme on 2014-01-27 09:24:29
Don't you guys think of anything but sects?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-27 10:21:07
:)
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-01-27 15:32:40
O if we could only play such word games in the big congregation! :)
Reply by Joel on 2014-01-27 16:31:00
I agree with Apollos. I'm not sure that you have a "next level" to offer. If you believe that you do and that we all need to hear it, then surely you can share it publicly? In my view, it is seeking "the next level", seeking to be better than everyone else that has gotten us into this mess. My personal view is and I believe the scriptural one is that when God reveals something, he makes it known to his servants, as he promises. Until then, Jesus instructed Christians to wait on his arrival and endure to the end. Since we cannot prove where we are in the stream of time and in fact Jesus said we would not know the day or the hour, is there really anything else to think about except exerting yourself as a Christian and keeping awake? Any thoughts on that?
Comment by kev c on 2014-01-21 07:37:50
Again i agree with all your observations meleti as i have noticed the very same things .For years i slaved as an elder in the congregation i had a teaching assignment all the way through i was on the platform probably more than any other elder in our congregation .I wanted to do my best for my brothers to provide them with a meeting that was both enjoyable and instructive i wanted to teach the truth sadly though as time is progressing it is becoming more and more clear that what is being taught is something else and ive given up reading the watchtower now because each time i read it i feel a sense of frustration and irritation .I Just want to move on to find the real truth and i too have learned more in the last 12 months than i have in the last 12 years kev c
Reply by on 2014-01-21 12:57:43
The problem is, Kev, that we don't really teach. Everything is scripted except for Bible Highlights. This parroting of what the GB wants us to "teach" hinders the flow of God's spirit on anyone who may be inspired by it to offer an alternative understanding. The brothers in my congregation are more corporate men than congregational men. Christ Jesus tends to be placed in a position subordinate to the FDS; a real insult to his position, as far as I'm concerned. I've thought about stepping down rather than continue to teach things I no longer find credible. I do appreciate your honest obsevations because they mirror mine.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-21 14:19:23
Too true. SmolderingWick1 spoke of the old 55 minute talks back when we had 88 outlines. However, I'm sure many of us remember the 60 minutes talks when we had only a theme to prepare and the rest was up to us. That allowed much individuality of expression and some speakers could really delve deeply into things. You were even allowed to come up with your own themes.
But that changed when the Society saw the need to standardize the teaching. Soon, outlines appeared and we were instructed not to deviate from them. If you scan the outlines, now close to 190, you will be surprised at the repetitive nature of the subject matter. With the wealth of knowledge found in Scripture, you'd expect a wide ranging array of topics, but that is not the case. The nature of the majority of talks is to promote unity of thought and action and conformity to the party line.
Our teaching and our worship have become formalized.
Reply by on 2014-01-21 14:58:06
As an elder I tried to bring something "fresh" to the meetings but quite soon I realized it is hopeless, everyone is so programmed by the Organization, they cannot think by themselves anymore. Only very few can and they are afraid to open their mouths.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-21 15:11:39
I am coming to the realization that this is a new-patch-old-garment scenario and all we can do is to help honest hearted ones to realize that.
Comment by BeenMislead on 2014-01-21 12:18:38
Paragraph 8 Says:
“They defend the flock by putting their brothers on guard against any who might attempt to undermine their faith. The apostle Peter warned of “false prophets” and “false teachers” who would try to “entice unsteady souls” into wrongdoing.”
A “false prophets” and/or “false teachers” are not going to “entice” you into stealing or immorality are they?
So are they saying it is “wrongdoing” to disagree with the interpretations (speculations) of the GB?
Seems to me that is what they are implying!!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-21 12:58:47
I agree. That does appear to be what they are implying.
Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-01-21 13:00:12
So are they saying it is “wrongdoing” to disagree with the interpretations (speculations) of the GB?
Not to undermine your point, but I think their position on that is already clear. Since they can disfellowship you for it, they must classify it as wrongdoing.
Reply by kev c on 2014-01-21 13:47:24
And the big problem is not so much undermining your faith in jesus but your faith in the leaders of the organisation As at my trial jesus wasnt even mentioned but the questions i were asked if the society asked me to do something would i do it and did i believe that the governing body are the faithful slave
Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2014-01-21 13:43:52
Slightly off topic but Feb15, 2014 Questions from Readers:
—What reasons did Jews in the first century have for being “in expectation” of the Messiah?
“If the apostles and other early Christians had correctly understood the prophecy about the 70 weeks, we would expect them to have mentioned the prophecy as proof that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that he had arrived on time. But there is no evidence that the early Christians did so.
“Another point is worth noting. Gospel writers often mentioned prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. (Matthew 1:22, 23; 2:13-15; 4:13-16) But none of them wrote that the prophecy of the 70 weeks had anything to do with Jesus Christ.
“To review: We cannot be sure that people in Jesus’ day correctly understood the prophecy of the 70 weeks. However, in the Gospels, there are other good reasons why the Jews would have been expecting the Messiah to arrive.”
—Seeing that this Watchtower acknowledges that the 70 year timeline fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy was not specifically mentioned even among the inspired gospel writers upon the first arrival of Christ, and seeing that it took this many centuries for us to descover it, how is it that we were now able to predict the 7 times (2,520 years from 607 BCE) of Daniel’s prophecy to Christ’s second arrival ahead of time? Were we somehow better inspired than they? If not, then why are we so determined to cling to this timeline? Perhaps fear of a mass exodus?
Is this why we are being bolstered to accept the authority of these new Seven Shepherds and Eight Dukes of the Governing Body—to “close ranks” (or lock shields as would Roman soldiers) as we were admonished in last week’s study?
After reviewing paragraph 18-20 from last week, a subliminal, somewhat threatening message seems buried in the following statements:
“As a loving Shepherd, Jehovah guides and protects us.”
“When we loyally support those appointed to take the lead, we express our ap-preciation to Jehovah and Jesus for all that they have done for us.”
“Now is the time for us to draw close to one another, to overlook the imperfections of others, and to display confidence in Jehovah’s leadership.”
“let us accept direction from those appointed to take the lead in Jehovah’s organization. Close ranks against the Devil and the demons!”
When it is finally discovered that nothing we predicted came true, will the very word “truth” become to us an insurmountable wedge—one that will pin us to the greatest test of our faith?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-21 14:10:59
I find a number of flaws in their logic.
First: The fact that the fulfillment of the seventy weeks is not mentioned does not mean they didn't understand it to have been fulfilled. There is no mention in John's gospel, letters, or Revelation of the destruction of Jerusalem though he wrote them almost 30 years after the fact. Are we to conclude that the first century Christians didn't understand that to have been a fulfillment of Jesus prophetic word at Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 9:41-44?
Are we to conclude that Jesus didn't understand the 70-weeks prophecy, or that in the three and a half years of his ministry, he never mentioned its fulfillment to his disciples? Are we to conclude that the holy spirit in opening up the word to Matthew, Mark and Luke, Peter, Paul, James and Jude failed to reveal this little detail?
Additionally, the prophecy was meant to indicate the arrival of the Messiah. If no one got it in the first century, that would be a colossal failure on Jehovah's part. He gives them a prophecy to indicate the coming of his Son, then he sends his Son to teach them, then he sends the holy spirit to reveal the meaning of all his Son taught, and they miss this major fulfillment??? I don't think so. For the Governing Body to teach that seems to me to indicate an appalling lack of faith in the power of God.
By the way, we also failed to get the 2,520 correct as we explain them. We didn't teach that Christ was present in 1914 until 1929. We thought the presence had started in 1874 and that 1914 marked the start of the great tribulation. We dropped that latter idea in 1969.
I'm having trouble coming up with a single twentieth century fulfillment of any of our interpretations that we got right. If anyone can point even one out to me, I'd appreciate it.Reply by anderestimme on 2014-01-21 14:47:16
What about the UN being the beast of Rev 17? If they really got that right at exactly the time when it 'was not, yet was about to ascend out of the abyss', then at least they'd have something in their favor. I'm thinking on screen here, so feel free to crucify me if there's some really obvious flaw.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-21 15:06:41
There is something very interesting on that subject that came to my attention recently thanks to one of our contributors. I won't post it here because I don't have permission, but here's the link for the full article: http://kristenfrihet.se/english/un.htm
Here are the relevant excerpts:
"How, then, about President Knorr's prediction in 1942 - right in the middle of World War II - that the peace organization which had disappeared from the scene at the outbreak of the war in 1939 would "ascend out of the abyss," (Rev. 17:8) again after the end of the war?" 12 At first glance, this seems to be a remarkable prophecy. It was a prediction that clearly was fulfilled. But it was in no way unique."
"As was shown above, W.E. Vine, as early as 1919, identified the League of Nations with the "beast" in Revelation, chapter 17. This interpretation was not adopted by the Watch Tower Society until eleven years later, when it was presented in volume 2 of the work Light, published in 1930."
....
"As all know, this prediction was fulfilled. But it was not difficult to make at that time. As Knorr himself pointed out in the same booklet (p. 21), plans of reviving the peace organization after the war were well on the way, the Axis Powers, Japan and Hungary having signed a "new League of Nations" already on November 20, 1940. In fact, the United Nations had already been formed, several months before Knorr's prediction, on January 1, 1942 at Washington D.C., with twenty-six nations signing a joint declaration on that date.17"
"Besides, Knorr's prediction was neither new nor unique. Other prophetic expositors had predicted the same thing - as much as two years earlier! Dwight Wilson refers, for example, to a prediction by the well known Bible expositor, Harry Rimmer: "Harry Rimmer in 1940 forecast a new League of Nations as a result of the war - and the rise of a universal dictator. The United Nations has arrived, but there is no dictator yet." 18"
"Thus, the Watch Tower Society can claim no priority on this or other predictions and prophetic applications attached to the League of Nations and the United Nations "
"If some of these predictions seem to have been fulfilled, therefore, this does not prove anything as to the Society's ability to prophesy; it just proves that they are able to plagiarize. For this, no divine inspiration is needed. If these predictions were divinely originated, the leaders of the Watch Tower Society should be forced to conclude that God gave them to fundamentalist Christians outside the Watch Tower organization."Reply by anderestimme on 2014-01-22 13:39:27
I think the general point Jonsson makes is valid, but his axe-grinding tone and tendency to be cavalier with his facts makes me a bit wary of him. An example of the latter is this:
"In fact, the United Nations had already been formed, several months before Knorr’s prediction, on January 1, 1942 at Washington D.C., with twenty-six nations signing a joint declaration on that date."
It may very well be that this event was the seed that eventually germinated in the formation of the UN, and that Knorr correctly judged that it would. But to say that the UN "had already been formed" (and on the basis of a quote in the WT at that) in 1942 is a fairly serious misrepresentation of easily researchable facts.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-22 13:50:34
A valid point.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-23 17:27:42
Some interesting background material came my way regarding Knorr's so-called landmark prediction and the timing of the formation of the United Nations during the war. You can read the full text of the talk here. It turns out his ideas were not original, and the talk itself is quite a lambast of the Vatican. Wikipedia offers some good information showing that “The Declaration by United Nations was a World War II document agreed on 1 January 1942 during the Arcadia Conference by 26 governments: the Allied "Big Four" (the US, the UK, the USSR, and China), nine American allies in Central America and the Caribbean, the four British Dominions, British India, and eight Allied governments-in-exile, for a total of twenty-six nations."
The following is an excerpt from “Peace-Can It Last?” Nathan Knorr 1942
“Those of a democratic mind hope for a United States of the world, a "family of nations", a "world association" based on the United Nations, including a "world legion". Says one spokesman: "An international constitution and government will be a postwar necessity." Others argue for a "World Bill of Rights". Others say the evidence shows that the hopes of the world are for the League of Nations again; and one college official says that the World Court for international arbitration must be made the key in a revived League. One of the president's own cabinet members says: 'A world organization, with the United Nations as its base, will determine the peace, and the postwar world will be policed by the allied powers.'
This hardly seems like a revelation from God, yet that is what we are lead to believe Knorr gave us.
Reply by Joel on 2014-01-27 18:45:15
" how is it that we were now able to predict the 7 times (2,520 years from 607 BCE) of Daniel’s prophecy to Christ’s second arrival ahead of time? "
This comment grew in length, so I truly hope it adds something to the discussion.
It is really when I read around on this particular subject, that I started to realise how easily I had been led on, how my faith had been unintentionally misplaced and how incomplete my scriptural education really was.
First, isn't it just a bit misleading that the publications continue to state bible students "rediscovered the truth" and gained a unique understanding of prophecy, when in fact their ideas were heavily based on those of individuals such as William Miller and Isaac Newton? I was amazed when I saw the Millerite chart of the nations about Nebuchadnezzars dreams and the calculation of Daniels prophecies. I had and have never ever read about that in publications from the Society. I have never seen anything published, except how thankful we can be that we have these "unique" insights.
Secondly, staking so much importance on dates has been an undoing time and time again throughout the last 2000 years and throughout the history of this organisation. The prophecy of 7 times is probably a case in point. There are interesting symbolisms involved and it is entirely possible something further is implied beyond the literal interpretation spelled out to Nebuchadnezzar, BUT, there seems to be simply no way to know for certain. The fact is, that this prophecy WAS fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar as Daniel said it would be. Not only that, actually proving that there is no way to know for certain is quite easy. Extracting 2520 years from 7 times and counting from 607BCE falls down on 2 points.
1) 607BCE cannot be proven as the date of Jerusalems destruction.
2) Counting 2520 years does not work because Jews did not use the Gregorian calendar that we use.
This is how quickly such interesting prophecies become too complex and nigh on impossible to interpret with pinpoint accuracy. I now believe many bible prophecies, including those in Daniel are provided to us as guides and reassurance of Gods purpose, not as exact waypoints for us to tick off along the way. Daniel asked for insight into when these things would occur and he was given some truly outstanding additional insight because he was highly favoured. It reads as a glimpse at the outworking of Gods purpose, with some layers of detail that will no doubt fit together for us like a jigsaw when the events described are all fulfilled and explained. Isn't it true that Jesus had to explain to his contemporaries directly how he fulfilled various prophecies? If it were as easy as reading a map, or even just as complex as quantum mechanics, then it would not make any sense that the angels desire to peer into these "hidden" things and that Jesus did not know the day or hour. As you correctly said, it is just illogical and "possibly" arrogant to assume that we would be able to interpret these things where angels cannot, unless we were perhaps given the interpretation as a gift, such as happened with Daniel or had it explained to us directly.
Many of Jesus prophecies are not only explained directly, but often also given several times in different way to introduce various angles, yet we still do not know the whole of it.
Once I realised that, I also came to believe that while it is entirely possible I am living close to the end time, there is really no point in trying to prove it with math or pointing at random events that seem to fit the bill. I certainly do live in a very interesting and potentially volatile period of human history, but then the Renaissance and Industrial revolutions were also unprecented and there have been countless other periods of history with their own tale. That in itself does not prove this is the end time.
ALL I need to know, is that Jesus told us he did not know the day, nor the hour and that I would not know when he was coming, that he would come as a thief in the night, at a time I do not expect it to be and that I need to keep awake, keep in expectation, endure to the end and that it would not be easy. Still, I am going to try to do that because with God all things are possible.
Anyone trying to spin me something else, something on top of what the scriptures and Jesus told me - I am not going to listen to them any more.Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-01-27 23:06:53
Ah my fine brother Joel, how your brain ticks on. Had I explained everything swirling in my brain I would have exhausted the space/time continuum of this fine website! And had we lived during the time Zechariah wrote almost two decades past Daniel's little talk to Cyrus when "the angel of Jehovah answered and said: 'O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?'” (Zechariah 1:12)
Oh yes, the 70 yrs of Jerusalem's temple was still unfulfilled. And so were the many false starts to Daniel's 70 weeks in the Messiah's first arrival. (Daniel 9:24-27)
Anyway, my brain gets really tired trying to explain to those who should know that linear measurements meant little to Hebraic faith. Just keep enduring and suffer long with much patience those who still linger and struggle with their cognitive dissonance!
sw
Comment by XFactor on 2014-01-22 20:28:31
Hello to everyone!
Question: What if someone wrote the following paragraph below in a book and put it on numerous bookshelves in many book stores all over, back some twenty [20] years ago. Would you call this a prediction or prophecy?
Here is the quote in question, from the book:
“...And so, the Watchtower magazine under the present-day Governing Body arrangement, is placed on the same level, given parity and equal status, with God’s Word. Jehovah’s Witnesses are subtly encouraged to view it as such. With the Governing Body controlling the contents of the Watchtower magazine, one needs no imagination to see how this special "tool" could be easily used to capture and manipulate the "minds and hearts” of sincere persons earth-wide and eventually exact unquestioned obedience, as would a "god." -- See 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4.
When this statement was made back twenty years ago, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses had not publicly declared themselves to be formally, the “Faithful & Discreet Slave,” exclusively. However, we know that declaration first came in October of 2012, at the Annual Meeting. And since that time, that declaration has created quite a stir among the brothers.
Meleti mentioned above these words on the possible coming of a prophet from God,
“But Jehovah doesn’t raise up prophets today like he did back then”, some will counter.
Who is to know what Jehovah will do. For centuries prior to the time of Christ, no prophet is recorded as being used. Jehovah has raised up prophets when it suits him to do so, and one thing is consistent: Whenever he raises up a prophet, he invests him or her with undeniable credentials.”
Could such a thing be going on today?
What are your thoughts?
XFactor
Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-22 23:02:10
My thought at first glance... It would be neither a prediction or prophecy... Just a spot on observation. I was too blind to see it....but someone who can be objective could see it.
Off topic, I've heard Non JW's many times throughout the years and well before 2012 accuse JW's of following "the men in New York" or the "Watchtower leaders" in New York.Growing up I had a bad habit of saying the Society says this or the Society discourages that. One day my Non JW cousin forcefully asked me, Who is this Society you keep talking about??? Is it a Secret Society?? I realized how creepy it may have sounded to him. Maybe even creepier to watch this "society" lead my actions and to witness me making life changing decisions based on what this " society" says. I suspect "The governing body " comes off the same way to people.
So in a nutshell I believe the world already believed the GB was exacting obedience and controlling the contents of Watchtower . We just couldn't see it. It didn't happen overnight or beginning with the annual meeting of 2012.Reply by XFactor on 2014-01-23 12:34:18
I know what you are saying, God’s Word Is Truth.
But the book [twenty years ago] made the prediction, is the Governing Body becoming the “Man of Lawlessness” right before our very eyes? Is this happening, in the kingdom hall? The prediction was: Is this prophecy coming true, in our day? Are we observing the FULFILLMENT, of this particular bible prophecy?
And we all know, the “Man of Lawlessness” is a major bible prophecy, correct? (2 Thess. 2:3-12)
Let's consider this again.
Remember, twenty or more years ago the elders were appointed by the Governing Body who ONLY represented the F&DS back then. They ONLY were viewed as the “mouthpiece” of the F&DS or “anointed remnant” on earth, some 10,000 people or more. But now, since October of 2012, the “elders” are appointed by the Governing Body who IS the F&DS, the one directly appointed by Jesus himself.
Only 8 men on earth now have that exclusive honor, that distinction.
Is there any wonder, your Watchtower Conductor BROKE DOWN IN TEARS, publicly on the platform, after considering this great privilege bestowed upon himself, by the illustrious Governing Body, who is now [like Jesus], a perfect “reflection“ of Jehovah? They show you what “Jehovah must be like,“ and all. Meaning, if you have “seen” the Governing Body, you have actually “seen” Jehovah, or something close to that? (See John 14:9)
Since when have we observed the brothers at the hall, the elders act like that before? Since when have we seen this type of special “adoration” heaped upon men, this organization? Only since October of 2012 have we seen this type of reaction from the brothers, particularly the elders.
I think you’d better think again.
There may be a serious trend being started here in the organization, especially since October 2012. When the Governing Body made that special claim to being the F&DS exclusively.
Remember these comments and startling observations made by yourself and others here:
“A well respected Elder( and the Coordinator) started crying on the stage during the Bible study saying that he feels so privileged, yet unworthy, that Jehovah by means of the slave has revealed that he will be one of the shepherds/dukes to lead God’s people through Armageddon. He went on to say that he has read that prophecy so many times and had no idea that in his lifetime Jehovah would unveil the identity of the dukes /shepherds. He then added that the brothers are letting us know that Jehovah is about to close the door(invoking the ark ).While talking about Jehovah’s qualities in the Bible study he asked the congregation about the qualities that the GB displayed during the annual meeting . He followed up the comments by saying “Imitating these loving brothers is imitating Jehovah ,They show us what Jehovah must be like”. Not Jesus who is a perfect reflection of his Father…..the GB.I had to type this out. I’m disturbed and in utter disbelief. I’m asking Jehovah in prayer tonight… “Why is this happening? ” A part of me wishes that the scales were still on my eyes so I can share in the joy of this “revelation” with my brothers and sisters.This is unbelievable because this brother knows the Bible like no other! I need a new word for disappointment to describe how I am feeling right now…..
***
It’s very sad. Jesus had been put on the back burner. Loyalty to the GB trumps all. I expect things to come to a terrible end very soon.Many brothers quietly are not buying this material. Eventually things will come to a head.Hopefully it’s not as bad as I imagine. I predict that I will soon lose family and friends.
***
That is a simply astonishing account. I can see why you would feel as you do. These are disturbing events.
***
All I can say is WOW!!
This trend of idolatry is truly disturbing!!
***
In Bible study, comments, the SM every one repeated that “be ready to obey line ” from last weeks WT to the point of it being kinda creepy.But even still I found myself searching for something to hold on to because the urgency among everyone was so great. I began to feel like my life could be possibly at stake. What if they are right?That thought quickly vaporized when we sung the song about submitting to theocratic order as if Jehovah established such a thing.
***
A friend told me that if the GB told him to wear purple sock he would wear purple socks. That is a cult mentality. I shared this with another witness friend who’s an MS and he jokingly told me to ask that other brother when our next cult meeting was.At least some witnesses are not willing to worship men.
***
Excuse me, but did they say, “worship men”?
Or, maybe we all need to put on “purple socks” like the Governing Body recommends. Or, when will the next “cult meeting” be going on, one Ministerial Servant observed. Even he could see it.
Meleti said, “these are disturbing events,” didn’t he?
Why so “disturbing”?
We’ve never seen anything like this going before by the brothers, have we?
What are we observing here?
And, was all of this going on twenty [20] years ago? If it was, we didn’t notice it. I didn’t hear anyone saying these type of “disturbing events” twenty [20] years ago.
Did you?
XFactorReply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-23 13:51:30
I defintely share your sentiments this level of adoration is unprecendented in my view. Slightly off topic....I was raised in the "truth" however 20 years ago I was 12 :) I was pioneering by then but I didn't have a grasp of the inner workings of the organization. I have always been commended for the crazy amounts of time I devote to personal study ... Sadly since then I've really have always been trying to fit the Wt doctrine Into the Bible and battling feelings of inadequacy because I cannot .... I've been distracted from the goings on in the organization.
To your point, in the last 5 years or so I have felt the GB has been oddly more controlling. The 2012 meeting cemented it for me. Even the brother at my hall that I was referring too in the same breath as the other comments I mentioned said " Friends the fact that the governing body is really spelling out what we have to do to survive shows us where we are in the stream of time" I really feel that "we" feel that the organization that we have constructed will be the nucleus of whatever structure Jehovah has in store for us in the new system. So Jesus thanks... But we have it covered.
You are losing me with the prophecy /prediction part of your statement .... Who's the prophet? (on a mobile device sorry for the spelling/grammatical errors)Reply by Sargon on 2014-01-23 14:34:52
20 years ago I was not even 10 years old.
Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-23 13:52:41
Meleti ...could you delete my duplicate post? My phone is wacky today! :(
Comment by XFactor on 2014-01-24 00:52:58
Hi Meleti, Apollos and anyone who wishes to comment:
I have been thinking about this question that has come to my mind, for some time. I noticed here, many do not believe the teaching of 1914 is really truth from Jehovah, and do not believe it is a scriptural teaching but is falsehood.
My question stems from this verse:
Revelation 14:5 says of the 144,000,
"and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish." (New World Translation)
So, if Jehovah's Witnesses have taught a false doctrine world wide for many, many years like the teaching of 1914, then how can the 144,000 exist among them, or be found among the "anointed remnant" of the 144,000 [including the F&DS too] as Jehovah's Witnesses currently teach?
In other words, how can any of the 144,000 be among Jehovah's Witnesses, if this group has taught a false doctrine, now for many, many decades, world wide, and the bible says there is "no falsehood" at all, to be found in their mouths?
I'd like to hear some thoughts from anyone here on this question.
Thanks,
XFactorReply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-24 04:14:23
I agree with you wholeheartedly X-factor...For what it's worth..I've yet to find a scripture in Revelation or in the bible that states the 144,000 are sealed to be kings, priests, or the bride of Christ.Rev 1:6 and Reve 20:6 speaks to kings and priests ruling.... But John didn't say that the 144,000 was set aside for that purpose. John talks about the 1440,00 in Reve chap 7 and 14 but never states that they will be ruling anything. He said at Rev 5:9-10-Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood [men] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. And Thou hast made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth. So whoever is chosen to rule John says they come out of Every tribe and nation etc. Vs.the 144,000 are spoken of as coming out of specfic tribes.
Whether the number is symbolic or not John never says they are ruling. Some translations render "servants" Reve 7:3 as "bond servants" maybe that's a clue to their purpose/responsibilities? I don't know and I am not sure if any one can really say. The GB seems to be convinced they are part of the 144,000 and they are going to be kings and priests in heaven....I'm not sure why.
Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-01-24 06:38:58
The falsehood described in Rev 14:5 appears to be deliberate falsehood, rather than doctrinal error. If Christians were judged on every aspect of doctrinal error or lack of understanding of prophecy then who would stand? Lots of Christian groups out there are giving other meanings to these and other prophecies. Would Jesus adversely judge every one that got it wrong, even if they were somewhat dogmatic?
Personally, I don't think we can say that doctrinal error = the falsehood described in Rev 14:5. If we take it that far then some Christians somewhere must have perfect doctrine. But I don't think that can be the case right now.
That is not to say that there might not be some deliberate falsehoods that DO fall into this category that some in the organization have willfully perpetuated. I am just not in a position to make that judgement.
ApollosReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-24 08:27:41
I agree with Apollos on this. It is easy for us to allow the hurt and betrayal we may feel over decades of deception to build in us a strong resentment. However, "vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord". It is Jesus whom Jehovah has charged as judge and executioner. We should leave the judging of motivation to him, because treading on his turf would do us harm. This doesn't mean we can't expose falsehood. In fact, we have a duty to do so.
Reply by kev c on 2014-01-24 13:25:37
Yes so do i agree with apollos its not talking about doctrinal error Spoken in ignorance it has to be talking of people who are deliberatly speaking lies in order to mislead others for perhaps some personal gain which of course is a trait of a true apostate and if they are doing that then in the words of michael the archangel may the lord rebuke them kev c
Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-24 07:42:41
"deliberate" meaning that we have ascribe motive in addition to the falsehood ? Well I agree that nobody can read hearts. Along those lines I guess that the person perpetuating the falsehood in addition has to know that what they are perpetuating is not the truth to fit this scripture.....
Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-01-24 08:27:15
Yes, because the Greek word here - dolos - means craft, deceit, guile.
There are lots of N.T. examples, but to take just one:
(John 1:47) Jesus saw Na·than′a·el coming toward him and said about him: “See, an Israelite for a certainty, in whom there is no deceit (dolos).”
It seems clear that Jesus was not suggesting that everything Nathanael said or thought was free from error. It has to involve a deliberate intention to mislead.
Comment by BeenMislead on 2014-01-24 10:22:16
Have you seen the March 2014 Kingdom Ministry?
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Will You Seize the Opportunity?
Upcoming Memorial Enables Us to Show Gratitude
4 Will this Memorial be our last? (1 Cor. 11:26) We do not know. But we do know that once it passes, gone will be a unique opportunity to show gratitude. Will you seize it? May the appreciative words of our mouth and the meditation of our heart bring pleasure to Jehovah, the generous Provider of the ransom. —Ps. 19:14. – (Our Kingdom Ministry, March 2014, Week Starting March 17)
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The writers are rightly careful about making any firm predictions, they can certainly be said to be toying with Witnesses – encouraging them to entertain the prospect of Armageddon coming in 2014.
Its 1975 all over again !!!
The apparent aim is heightening the expectations among Jehovah’s Witnesses.Reply by JohnAmos on 2014-01-25 12:18:00
I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that this memorial/pass-over coincides with a blood moon?
I have often wondered myself what is meant (what we will actually see) when it is said…
“The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.”
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-24 10:28:07
(w68 5/1 pp. 272-273 par. 8 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time)
“Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows.” (Mark 13:32) Sufficient is it for God’s servants to know for a certainty that, for this system under Satan, time is running out rapidly. How foolish a person would be not to be awake and alert to the limited time remaining, to the earthshaking events soon to take place, and to the need to work out one’s salvation!”
“But this was insufficient to stem the enthusiasm that was constantly being reinforced by public speakers, including Circuit Overseers on their visits and at assemblies as well as District Overseers and brothers giving parts on the District Convention platform.” – Meleti
I may be overly suspicious these days but the resemblance is striking. Especially considering my experience at the meeting last week.
Comment by BeenMislead on 2014-01-24 10:57:01
Armageddon was going to be ONLY weeks or months from the autumn of 1975 !!
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“Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. ... And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.” – (1968 Watchtower, 8/15 p. 499, Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?)
Comment by JohnAmos on 2014-01-24 14:50:58
Hello,
Can someone here address my post posted under “Discussions”? I am new to this site and not sure where to ask any questions. THANK you in advance.
JohnAmos
Comment by XFactor on 2014-01-24 17:32:45
Question: When the 144,000 sing the new song, are they teaching the 1914 doctrine? - Revelation 14:3
In years past, the Watchtower Society in many of their publications have given us an explanation of what they believed the "New Song" to be and who and when it is to be sung. Notice the following quotes below: In the 1966 Watchtower magazine, page 184, under the subheading, THE GRAND THEME OF THE SONG, we learn this:
“And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the older persons.” SO THE SONG WAS NOT KNOWN AND SUNG BEFORE 1914. IT IS NEW. The 144,000 integrity-keeping joint heirs with Christ are the first ones to vocalize it. Because of its singers and its content it is the greatest and most far-reaching anthem of the universe, for IT IS ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF GOD AS THE GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED SINCE 1914."
Also, the 1973 Watchtower magazine, page 401, paragraph 1 continues:
"JEHOVAH is being praised in a song that is heard throughout the earth today. No, it is not being sung by Levites. Nor can we hear an angelic chorus extolling God in the heights above. But we can hear the “new song,” sung in unison by prospective heirs of Jehovah’s heavenly government. (Rev. 14:1-4; 20:6; 22:5; Ps. 96:1, 10) It is the stirring anthem of God’s established kingdom that has functioned in heaven SINCE 1914 C.E. WITH THE GLORIFIED JESUS CHRIST AS KING. Thousands have heard that gripping song with deep appreciation."
Then too, there was this comment from The Revelation Grand Climax book, chapter 29, page 200, paragraph 7, which adds:
"And what is this “new song”? As we noted in discussing Revelation 5:9, 10, the song has to do with Jehovah’s Kingdom purposes and his wonderful provision, through Jesus Christ, for making spiritual Israel “a kingdom and priests to our God.” It is a song of praise to Jehovah publicizing the new things he is accomplishing by means of the Israel of God and in behalf of it. (Galatians 6:16) Members of this spiritual Israel respond to the psalmist’s invitation: “Praise Jah, you people! Sing to Jehovah a new song, his praise in the congregation of loyal ones. Let Israel rejoice in its grand Maker, the sons of Zion— let them be joyful in their King.” (Psalm 149:1, 2) True, those words were written centuries ago, BUT IN OUR DAY, THEY HAVE BEEN SUNG WITH NEW UNDERSTANDING. IN 1914 THE MESSIANIC KINGDOM WAS BORN. (Revelation 12:10) In 1919 Jehovah’s people on earth began to announce “the word of the kingdom” with renewed zeal. (Matthew 13:19) Stimulated by the Society’s year text for 1919 (Isaiah 54:17) and encouraged by their restoration to a spiritual paradise, they began in that year to ‘sing to Jehovah with music in their hearts.’—Ephesians 5:19."
As you can see, according to the understanding of Jehovah's Witnesses, this "New Song" is tied completely to the date of 1914, when, as they teach, Jesus received full kingdom power in the heavens. Now this explanation presents a real problem for those of us who have learned and can prove that this particular date, either 1914 or 1919, has no validity or credibility as it cannot be substantiated using the Bible. Therefore, this being the case, many questions come to mind that need answers.
Still, is it reasonable to believe this "New Song" from God has been sung or is being sung today currently by Jehovah's witnesses? Indeed, if it can be proven from the bible God's kingdom was not established in 1914 as taught by the Watchtower Society, then can 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses make a valid claim to be actually singing this special song, via the "anointed" who are supposed to be ONLY in their midst, some 11,000 plus or so strong? Indeed, can Jehovah's Wit-nesses actually teach the remnant of the 144,000 are strictly in their midst, the so-called "anointed" if you will, if the teaching of 1914 is found to be ultimately INCORRECT upon close examination? Yes, can they rightly make this claim at all? Remember, the Watchtower Society claims this "New Song" is known only to members of the 144,000, which makes it impossible for anyone to properly sing this "New Song" BEFORE that date or new teaching became known...isn't that so? That's what they teach, isn't it? Therefore, no member of the 144,000 could properly sing this "New Song" itself, until after the teaching of 1914 became known.
So what this means of course, since Jehovah's Witnesses teach God has been gathering the 144,000 approximately over a 2,000 year period, since Jesus' death, that only a small portion (a small remnant) of this group could actually gain the grand opportunity to really "Sing" this "New Song" because those who died before this date, INCLUDING THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF JESUS, could not have even learned about the mysterious date of 1914 per say. Now, what do you think of that?
Given that understanding of the singing of the "New Song," doesn’t this indicate that the Watchtower Society has actually assumed and adopted the fatal reasoning that not ALL, ALL of the 144,000 actually get to really "Sing" the Brand "New Song" of God? Isn’t that the only logical conclusion that we could come to, given such a faulty reasoning and premise presented by the Watchtower Society? Realistically, doesn't this show the Watchtower Society itself, actually does not understand how this "New Song" will be properly presented to all mankind? Also, doesn't this clearly show the Watchtower Society and 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses themselves, actually do NOT know the true identify of the 144,000, since Revelation 14:3 makes it crystal-clear all...and that's all, of the 144,000 and NOT a portion of them, actually get to sing the Grand "New Song" before God and the "Lamb"? Isn't that what the bible teaches?
Yes, in the light of the above information, can the Watchtower Society really say that members from their group, members from the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, actually understand what this "New Song" is, who is to sing it and when it is to be sung?
XFactor
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-24 20:02:53
I need to examine revelation again w/o the "grand climax book. (maybe its a good thing I lost it so I can't use it as a crutch ) I want to state categorically that I believe that ultimately God will choose who goes where and what roles they will serve …..with that being said I’ll tell you what I have believed…….
In a nutshell I have always believe that the 144,000 (figurative or symbolic) is the original congregation/ church ( Jews and Gentiles) before the death of the apostles and the great apostasy set in . They are the only ones that fit the “virgin” passage in Rev if it means spiritual purity . No group or individual after the apostasy can claim absolute spiritual purity after they died. They are set apart from the rest of the spiritual Israel of God. They are the first fruits .
John says “After” this the ( the next group/event) After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb
In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white n the blood of the Lamb.+ 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and y
The elder prompted John to ask who they are (he didn’t prompt to ask after the first group in my mind because John knew who they were) John said “My lord you are the one who knows” the Elder tells them who they are. They are a second group of Christians in Heaven who make up spiritual Israel.
If your question ultimately is whether the JW's/GB fit the description of the 144,000 My answer is No because no one after the great apostasy set it in the Christian congregation does.Reply by imjustasking on 2014-01-25 01:35:28
Hi GodsWordIsTruth,
I agree that my current understanding lends me to arrive at the same conclusion as you, regarding the identity of the GC seen in heaven.
The Society teaches that this is the same group described in Mth 25 - but there is a distinction between them. The GC seen in heaven have clearly demonstrated their faith in Jesus, because they have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and know him. On the other hand, the sheep in Mth 25 are surprised that they are favoured by the Lamb, a fact revealed by the question - 'when did we see you naked, etc...'. Their ignorance of knowing the lamb is further illustrated because the goats ask exactly the same question. Is it reasonable to believe that a Christian who has followed Jesus is going to be equally ignorant of Jesus and his brothers as somebody who has no knowledge of God and his purposes? I don't think so. Thus I feel that the two groups are different.
Furthermore, at this moment in time I am left with the understanding that the GC is in heaven and NOT earth. The GC in my view are all the Christians gathered from all the denominations. By Christian, I mean the individuals that Christ and his angels have harvested from Christendom (the wheat). So the designation of Christian in this context is one based on Jesus' decision and NOT any notion based on denominational affiliation.
The two groups are distinct. Christians go to heaven (John 14:2,3, 1 Thess 4:16,17), whilst the sheep identified by John stay on earth (Psalm 37:9, Psalm 104:5).Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-26 10:45:03
I can't pretend to know the mind of Rutherford or where he received his "new light from"
We know that before 1935 JW's ( a small group starting out ) taught that all Christians were going to heaven like all the other Christian denominations (including Rutherford)
Russell believe that 144,000 was the number of the anointed and it appears that the message of their preaching work was something like " the end is near there are only 144,000 spots" Maybe with increase of membership over 144,000 at some point they had a numbers problem.
I'm not sure why Rutherford deviated sharply from “all Christians go to heaven” teaching (the only hope Jesus, apostles, Russell and other Christian religions taught ). Now the teaching is that only 144,000 Christians go to heaven to rule over everybody else on earth.( has that teaching also evolved to Christ only being the mediator to the 144,000 and in turn they are mediators to the great crowd? There is one mediator…Christ)In my mind that same scripture in Revelation allows for a great crowd in the heavens. Even Russell’s version of the great crowd was different from Rutherford’s: “As the number of the Bride of Christ is to be 144,000, it would be reasonable to think that each number of this class may have 144,000 to look after, as 144,000X144,000 equals 20,736,000,000 (twenty billion seven hundred and thirty-six million), evidently just about the right number to be cared for - 144,000 would be quite a host for each individual of the Bride class to look after. So we can see the necessity for the work of the Great Company" ( 1917 edition of Studies in the Scriptures, series VII, The Finished Mystery p. 138). If you sift through the weird number calculation, and since 1935 is when Rutherford invented the earthly class , Russell’s version of the great crowd are in heaven. ( sidenote: the world “class” is like nails on a chalkboard to me. The bible does not speak of class distinctions or classes of people. Jesus taught although there are sheep not of “this fold” that he would “ bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd-John 10:16)
I am still glancing over that book and only glancing because trying to understand it how he arrived at these conclusions gives me a headache . One thing in my mind is clear …We cannot run from Russell (even in all his sincerity his teachings were…weird) by saying implying that we do not believe that he was part of the faithful slave because pages 5,6 of that same book says differently ……
This book may properly be said to be a posthumous publication of Pastor Russell. Why? Because to him the Lord gave the "key"; to him was given the privilege of making clear to the Church in its last years the "Mystery of God"; to him was granted the privilege of bearing from the hands of the Lord to the Household of Faith "meat in due season" for the special development and sustenance of God's dear little ones .... It seemed pleasing to the Lord that Brothers C. J. Woodworth and George H. Fisher should prepare the Seventh Volume, under the direction of the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY
So he was part of the “slave” . With all the weird unscriptural reasoning/teachings contained in that book ….How can the GB (or any man for that matter) demand obedience? In their defense I can’t compare their “new light” pertaining to the book of Revelation because the book Revelation Climax book is not online on the JW site. ( go figure)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-25 10:54:20
You raise some very interesting points, GodsWordIsTruth. I too want to take a fresh, non-1914 look at John's Revelation. I have been wondering about the great tribulation. Jesus definitely referred to the destruction of Jerusalem as the greatest tribulation of all time. But in what sense did he mean that? Tribulation is used almost exclusively (and I"m not sure about the "almost") in the Christian Scriptures in reference to the congregation; to both good and bad elements within it. We think of it as destruction, but that is not the meaning of the word. It means stress, trial and test. A time of trial and testing came upon the true and faithful Christians once the great apostate, the man of lawlessness, was manifest. It continues down to this day. Rather than apply the single use of "great tribulation" in Revelation to the attack on Babylon the great, could it apply to the ongoing tribulation that Christians have been experiencing since the start of the last days in the first century?
Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-25 03:07:31
I'mjustasking ...I might get a scriptural thrashing for what I'm about to say :) but could we reason that those ones under the Abrahamic covenant (Jews and Gentiles alike ) will also "inherit the earth?" Thus fulfilling that covenant and of all the blessings promised to them .(All of which was made possible bcause of the promised Messiah.)
Reply by imjustasking on 2014-01-25 05:57:23
GodsWordisTruth that is a tough one. I'm not sure.
I have discussed the topic of the 'ancients' and I'm undecided. However I do not find your proposition unreasonable - so no thrashing from me :-)Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-26 13:10:37
I say that because at Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
So whether they are appointed as Judges , Co- rulers as Kings or priests in Jesus' kingdom how are they going to actually judge the 12 tribes of Israel if those under that covenant are in heaven too? At the time Jesus said this, I'm sure the Apostles believed that this kingdom was going to be restored to Israel (fleshly) on earth... that is until whenever they realized they had a heavenly calling and that there was a "spiritual" Israel.
I don't really know either ..... the topic of the "ancients" is tricky :)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-26 15:38:31
I'm not sure if this is pertinent, but the account of the 144,000 has them being taken out of the twelve tribes, indicating that a part of the whole is being extracted. Whatever the 144,000 turns out to be and whatever the twelve tribes of Israel actually represents, it does seem safe to say that a part of a whole is extracted.
Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-26 15:47:52
Hmmm...I didn't think about that...
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-01-25 11:48:33
When I studied with 7th Day Adventists years ago (which finally came to an end because both sides were counting service time) their belief was the same as ours, that Abraham and Isaac pictured a divine drama, that of the Father sacrificing His Son so that by means of the Son all humanity would be saved.
When the study finally ended we parted, agreeing to disagree, our respective theologies bolstered by the victory of not losing an argument, which is just the way it goes when one is defending their faith as though it were the only truth.
As for their theology, it is far simpler. ALL who were bought by and who remained faithful to Christ go to heaven until earth has paid its Sabbaths during the thousand year reign of Christ, which is why Jesus was also given the title "Lord of the Sabbath." During that time while in heaven they would be opening heavenly scrolls and learning divine law before returning to the earth.
Of course, since we Jehovah's must always be right, our arguments always reverted to their meticulous observances of the Sabbath and absence of uttering the divine name. Never mind the imbalanced, dogmatic, stalwart views of both sides.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-25 11:10:48
One of our regular readers e-mailed me yesterday, and I felt that the information was worth sharing with the forum readership.
FROM E-MAIL (published with writer's permission):
I have a problem with the use of “judgmental” when at times a comment is made that is critical of the organization or its doctrines. If a person sees someone endangering the life of another, is it being judgmental to criticize that action? After all to paraphrase what Cain replied to God, we are our brother’s keeper.
We have a whole judicial system that is set up to judge and punish those who commit crimes against members of our society. There comes a time when to keep silent one becomes an accomplice with the wrongdoer. By standing by and allowing a wrong to be done we become an enabler. I know we are warned in the Bible to be careful of judging another lest we be judged by the same yardstick but there is also a time to speak out when you see others being hurt by deceit.
There is a Scripture which I feel applies to the WT at this time: “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you-but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others." Matthew 23:1-5 The WT does not treat the flock with tenderness as Jesus commanded.
If you teach a doctrine that you know is false, is that not a lie? Am I being judgmental if I point that out? I think every JW should be aware that in 1975 the then president of the WT, Nathan Knorr, said “There are some things I know – I know that Jehovah is God, that Christ Jesus is his Son, that he gave his life as a ransom for us, that there is a resurrection. Other things I’m not so certain about. 1914-I don’t know. We have talked about 1914 for a long time. We may be right and I hope we are.” This coming from the leader of the organization. Why was that not shared with every “Tom, Dick and Harry”? I think the rank and file had the right to know.
The next president of the WT was Fred Franz and here is one of his comments:
“They would merge everyone together and make Jesus Christ the mediator for every Tom, Dick and Harry.
The president went on to affirm that the Society’s teaching was right. The one text he referred to in Scripture was Hebrews, chapter twelve, and the words:
"It is for discipline you are enduring. God is dealing with you as sons. For what son is he that a father does not discipline? But if you are without the discipline of which all have become partakers, you are really illegitimate children, not sons."
He then gave the illustration of a horse whose master uses discipline to teach it to walk around in a circle and he stated, “Sometimes it may take a few lashes with the whip to get it to do this.” He urged anyone who had doubts about the Society’s teaching on this point to hold on, take the discipline and “show that he has the guts to stick with it!”
If I may be critical or should I say judgmental at this point, I do not think Mr. Franz was acting in the best interests of the flock. The fine shepherd cares for his flock tenderly, he does not beat them. This was in 1979 when they already were aware of the research done by Carl Olof Jonsson in what he would later publish as The Gentile Times Reconsidered. The information showed that the documentation supporting the doctrine of Christ’s presence in 1914 was baseless. They knew they were teaching a false doctrine upon which the whole structure of the religion rested. I am quoting now from correspondence from the WT to Mr. Jonsson, January 1978:
“As you can appreciate, what you state in your treatise amounts to a radical departure from the present understanding of chronology by Jehovah’s Witnesses. We are sure that you can appreciate that if changes of importance are made they should be made in an orderly way, even as was the case in the first century, with central direction being given. (Acts 15:1,2) We are also sure that you appreciate that for individuals to advance and advocate such changes would have, not a unifying effect, but a divisive one producing confusion. We mention this to you in view of the fact that the treatise you sent contains a statement on the front page describing it as “prepared by Jehovah’s Witnesses, for Jehovah’s Witnesses.” To say that something is “prepared by Jehovah’s Witnesses” implies that it has the sanction of Jehovah’s Witnesses as a body, and we are sure you realize that is not the case with the treatise at hand. This could give a false impression and we are confident that this is not your desire. You can be assured that your views will be examined by responsible brothers, and that if doctrinal change should be made at sometime it will come through the proper channels. This is important in preserving the unity of Jehovah’s organization. “
They are still misleading people. From the March KM:" Will this Memorial be our last? (1 Cor. 11: 26) We do not know. But we do know that once it passes, gone will be a unique opportunity to show gratitude. Will you seize it? May the appreciative words of our mouth and the meditation of our heart bring pleasure to Jehovah, the generous Provider of the ransom. —Ps. 19:14." I was around for the debacle of 1975 and they had a major increase by “implying” that the end would come in that year. I guess after 100 years of false prophesies they have to use the same tactics to get an increase. Call me judgmental if you like but I call what they are doing reprehensible.
END OF E-MAIL
-------------------------------------------
MELETI: It is not at all wrong to criticize and even to denounce a wrong action. In fact, it is our obligation to do so. Qui tacet consentire vidétur, “silence gives consent”. However, it is wrong to judge the person making the wrong action, since judgment belongs to God. So judge the action, not the person. Say, "You behaved badly." but not, "You are bad." Knorr is gone and his judgment is in Jehovah's hands. However, we can condemn the unlawful actions of the Organization and the unlawful actions of the men who lead it. That judgment is permitted us-—indeed, required of us-—by law.
The statements made by Fred Franz and Nathan Knorr, I believe to be accurate, but I can’t prove them, so I can’t use them. Only at the mouth of two or more can we "admit an accusation against an older man." (1 Tim. 5:19) However the exchange between Jonsson and the Society is substantiated and does indicate a knowing disregard for the truth. Even if there is room for doubt, the honest thing would be for the Governing Body to reveal both sides of the argument to the flock. Instead, they threaten the sheep with disfellowshipping for reading any material that contradicts official church doctrine, labeling it “apostate”.
The very leading statement from the March KM looks like a return to the mentality leading up to 1975. However, I believe the next prophetic disconfirmation will be a death knell for the Organization as we know it.
Comment by XFactor on 2014-01-25 12:09:34
Questions to ponder: Should the Governing Body & The Watchtower Society openly admit that the teaching of 1914 is not correct? Should they admit that they were wrong on this matter in the past, in what they taught? Or, should they just continue to perpetuate this harmful teaching upon the masses, upon millions, and continue to "disfellowship" [destroy family relationships] anyone or anybody who disagrees with it, and does not believe it anymore?
Of course, the answer to these questions seems quite obvious to us, does it not?
Revelation 21:8 tells us that all "liars" are going to the "lake of fire," the "second death."
Revelation 22:15 further tells us:
"Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolators and EVERYONE LIKING AND CARRYING ON A LIE."
With the 1914 teaching, and the newest continuing additions to this doctrine, [like the "overlapping generation" theories being mercilessly propounded upon Jehovah's Witnesses around the world currently] can we say the Governing Body is QUITE DETERMINED to show themselves to be certainly "liking and carrying on a lie," just as the verse says above?
Let's notice these quotes from previous Watchtower publications, on the topic of the advisability of admitting when one is clearly wrong on a matter.
*** g73 2/8 p. 4 The Wisdom of Admitting a Mistake ***
Of course, admitting we made a mistake is the right, honest and decent thing to do. But it is more than that. It is also the course of wisdom. For one thing, admitting to having made a mistake is a lesson in humility. This, on the one hand, protects us from the snare of pride, which is ever ready to entrap us. And, on the other hand, the humbling experience of admitting we made a mistake may well serve to make us more careful so that we will be less likely to make that same mistake again. Wisely we are warned: "He that is covering over his transgressions will not succeed [with God], but he that is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy"—by God and by God’s servants. Yes, the very confessing of our errors will aid us to leave them.—Prov. 28:13.
Admitting to making a mistake is the course of wisdom in that it builds in us strength and self-respect. Failure to do so is cowardly, and serves to weaken us morally...Further, admitting a mistake is the course of wisdom because it makes for better relations with others. When we refuse to admit we have made a mistake, we outrage the judgment of others; and they will conclude that we are either too proud, or dishonest, or too stupid to recognize that we made a mistake—all of which may well cause a barrier to come between us and those around us....
***
Paradise Restored to Mankind By Theocracy 1972, Pages 353 & 354
"Jehovah, the God of the true prophets, will put all false prophets to shame either by not fulfilling the false prediction of such self-assuming prophets or by having His own prophecies fulfilled in a way opposite to that predicted by the false prophets. False prophets will try to hide their reason for feeling shame by denying who they really are. "
***
w72 11/1 p. 643 Be Big Enough to Admit a Mistake
"Stumble" is just another word for "make a mistake." And though we all make mistakes, how difficult it is to admit making one! It goes against one’s pride. When one is charged with making a mistake one is prone to want to justify oneself, to make excuses, to shift blame onto others, or to deny having made the mistake. It takes bigness to admit a mistake, to shoulder the blame, to admit that one has been wrong, or used poor judgment.
...Refusing to admit that one has made a mistake is like claiming infallibility"
What are your thoughts on this?
XFactorReply by Sargon on 2014-01-25 12:55:14
I told a friend that the GB is attempting to divorce themselves subtly from 1914. She says questioning the GB makes her uncomfortable and asked that I no longer talk to her until I figure out my issues. Then she unfollowed me on social media citing a WT article next month where we are further instructed to not talk to "false apostles" aka people who question the GB. Thankfully I've been able to question the GB to my immediate family and friends with no problem so far. I'm holding out hope that one day I can break free and keep my family. It's obvious to me that the GB knows they are wrong about many things, most of which came from Rutherford twisted contrarian interpretations. Being different from everyone doesn't automatically make you correct. I don't expect the GB to ever admit error, though that in my opinion would save the organization. The same friend who said he would wear purple socks if the GB told him to, also believes end must be soon. His reasoning: he doesn't see the organization surviving another 10 years. Ironically he admitted he doesn't teach 1914 anymore to bible students. In the meantime the GB will continue to perform powerful works by means of annual meetings and international conventions to placate the growing unprecedented apathy. Has anyone noticed that memorial attendance is down 3 straight years in a row from its all time peak? That is the canary in the coal mine. Expect death of the organization to slowly follow. That is the reason for their latest rhetoric.
Reply by Observer17 on 2014-01-25 14:25:10
Your friend may have good reason for not questioning the GB.
She may remember reading these statements:
"If we have love for Jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, 'BELIEVE ALL THINGS,' ALL THE THINGS THAT THE WATCHTOWER BRINGS OUT" -- See "Qualified to be Ministers" (1955) page 156
Or this one,
"The point is that Christians have implicit trust in their heavenly Father; they DO NOT QUESTION what he tells them through his written Word AND ORGANIZATION." -- See Watchtower 1974 July 15th page 441
Observer17
Reply by alitheiaaiton on 2014-01-25 14:29:01
Hi Sargon
May I ask what you are referring to when you say “memorial attendance is down 3 straight years in a row from its all time peak?” I have checked the yearbooks from 2010 to 2013 and only observe a slight decrease in 2013 over the previous year. When was the peak you refer?Reply by Sargon on 2014-01-25 15:37:09
I meant US attendance. I think 2011 was the all time high. I could be wrong though. I'm young. I'm used to having memorial attendance increase every year I can remember.
Reply by alitheiaaiton on 2014-01-25 16:42:52
Hello again Sargon
I just checked the yearbooks again and found that the 2012 records the highest attendance but the 2013 shows a whopping decrease of 361,394 for the world and 61,463 for the US. I would not have checked if you had not noticed this. Interesting.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-25 14:41:28
>>"When we refuse to admit we have made a mistake, we outrage the judgment of others; and they will conclude that we are either too proud, or dishonest, or too stupid to recognize that we made a mistake—all of which may well cause a barrier to come between us and those around us…."
Well said!
Comment by Observer17 on 2014-01-25 16:02:28
Hi Meleti,
No offense intended. :)
But you said in this comment at this link: http://meletivivlon.com/2014/01/20/obey-jehovahs-shepherds-w13-1015-p-21/#comment-7881
“It is not at all wrong to criticize and even to denounce a wrong action. In fact, it is our obligation to do so. Qui tacet consentire vidétur, “silence gives consent”. However, it is wrong to judge the person making the wrong action, since judgment belongs to God. So judge the action, not the person. Say, “You behaved badly.” but not, “You are bad.” …”
And in this comment at this link you said: http://meletivivlon.com/2014/01/20/obey-jehovahs-shepherds-w13-1015-p-21/#comment-7880
“…A time of trial and testing came upon the true and faithful Christians once the great apostate, the man of lawlessness, was manifest. It continues down to this day.”
Again no offense intended, but when you said this, I was reminded of the fact that we all know Jehovah’s Witnesses routinely go out in field service and publicly pronounce the clergy of Christendom [either by way of using the printed page or by using the bible itself] the wicked, vile “Man of Lawlessness” and true fulfillment of 2 Thess. 2:3-12. We even teach this, publicly from the platform at the meetings, and on personal bible studies and door-to-door work. We routinely say: “These people are bad,“ especially in our literature, pointing to the clergy of Christendom as real villians before God. So, we actually “judge” these people and put these “judgments” in our publications for all too see, and pass judgment upon these people, publicly. And we say also, that action on our parts, is quite appropriate too, in our public ministry. And of course, we know Jehovah’s Witnesses have been doing this very thing, all the way back to the days of Pastor Charles Taze Russell, right down through Judge Rutherford‘s day, and on down to our day.
We even use verses like Ezekiel 23:36 and 45 in our ministry, actually quoting scripture saying these wicked ones deserve to be “judged” and we “judge” them in the name of Jehovah & Jesus Christ, publicly, referring to the wicked leaders and their followers of Christendom.
So this is the way we reason. However, when it comes to our own leaders, when their own dishonesty and willful deceit comes shining through for everyone to see in the teaching of 1914, this vile doctrine, I was wondering, why is it NOT appropriate for us to do the very same thing and pronounce these ones “wicked” also, the Governing Body and Watchtower Society, especially in light of the fact that they are eagerly cramming down our throats this “overlapping generation” falsehood angle, and continue to disfellowship sincere brothers because they will not go against their own “christian conscience” and knowingly and willfully teach this wickedness to innocent people? Why is that the way it is for us Jehovah’s Witnesses?
We can only say it was a “bad thing to do,“ for the Governing Body, but let’s not say: the people, the Governing Body [or Watchtower Society] themselves, is bad. We can’t pronounce them wicked. Why is that the right way to look at things?
Why can’t we do the very same thing that we already did to the clergy of Christendom for over a century, and simply pass judgment upon these wicked leaders among the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are just like the clergy of Christendom that we eagerly denounced in field service? Why isn‘t it appropriate, for us to do this, in the eyes of Jehovah & Jesus Christ?
Any thoughts?
Observer17Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-25 16:31:09
No offense taken.
To answer your question, we cannot do so because two wrongs don't make a right.
If we as Jehovah's Witnesses have been denouncing and judging people then we have been doing wrong. It is one thing to condemn the actions of other religions, using the standard laid down in Scripture. But condemning individuals is another thing entirely. It is Jehovah through Jesus who passes judgment on men. We can, and should, denounce wicked acts, even if they come from within our own Organization. However, we should not denounce men. Whether their heart is wicked or not is for Jehovah to determine.Reply by Observer17 on 2014-01-25 16:36:20
Just so I'm clear on this,
so then, should we use the term "Man of Lawlessness" publicly, in reference to the clergy of christendom? (2 Thess. 2:3-12)
Observer17Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-25 19:07:38
Forgive me.... Maybe my view needs to be adjusted. (sorry for spelling errors )
But this is their organization. Let's be honest... their attitude is if we don't like the rules we can leave. I know it's disheartening to see so many honest hearted ones misled, in denial or scared to come forth.However, I don't believe that adopting an "let's change the organization from the inside " , "let's bring the the GB " or allowing ourselves to become bitter will serve us or our brothers and sisters in the long run. It's a distraction and Satan wants us to be so focused on these things that in the Grand scheme of things don't matter... We are all trying to survive. Everyone's "awakening " is different but we can be assured that we don't need to help Jesus do his job to clean out his congregation. (non jw , jw alike) Jesus knows his sheep. I know that we are all grateful to finally uncover truths that will ultimately bring us closer to our heavenly Father. But...we are not special. There were those who were "awakened" before us and they will be those who will be "awakened" after us.If people want the truth... Jehovah will make sure they find it. That's one of the reasons I'm eternally grateful for the brothers sacrifice to devote time to this site.
To be frank, the GB likes to say that Babylon the Great is the world empire of false religion. ( because we are the "true religion"). In our effort to " legally establish the good news" with countless legal maneuvers to expand protect this organization, and building kingdom halls across the globe can we say that this organisation has not any way committed fornication with the kings of the earth to do it ? We know that porneia has a wide range of meanings. Political neturality does just mean not enlisting in war,saluting the flag or like the "world" like GB likes to say.. All this talk about NGO affiliations, the manner in which they are lobbying for religious freedom with the "kings of the earth" and the infamous letter to Hitler.... There hands may not be as clean. Babylon the Great could be a symbol of World Empire of religion period. I don't see any religion's hands clean from with politics not matter how sincere their efforts may be.
I don't see them changing. They have come to far. They are hardening their stance like never before.They are presumptously stating they are going to recieve instructions and directions from Jehovah himself. Pride is before a crash .It may be Jehovah's will that they do and if it is there's nothing we can do to prevent it .Reply by Observer17 on 2014-01-25 21:39:19
What if I told you, that I believe every single word you have just spoken, wholeheartedly! :)
And with the secret UN/NGO situation now being revealed, and the spiritual "fornication" and hidden "adultery" of the organization now being brought to light before everyone, the world is now surely in a "cesspool" state, completely. (James 4:4)
Now, I'd only like to add to what you have just said, with one more important point, one fact (cause just like you said, in the end, 'its the governing body's way...or the hi-way,' and that's all there is to it, till Jehovah gets involved, its just that simple, so I get it):
However Jesus promised us, the "Spirit of Truth" would come to "guide us into all truth," and also "declare the things coming [like the future]." (John 16:13)
That is a fact. It's going to happen, we can be assured of that.
So, we can all look forward to that reality occurring and taking shape before the "Great and Fear Inspiring Day" of Jehovah comes, when "Elijah" comes to "restore all things," just as Jesus promised. (Malachi 4:5; Matt. 17:11)
And if "Elijah" is going to "restore all things," then, what "all things" was Jesus talking about that would need "restoring"? Evidently Jesus foresaw, something big, that would need to be "restored" before the "Great Day" of Jehovah? And additionally, if the "Spirit of Truth" is going to lead us into "all truth," then surely, we know we don't possess it, that's "all truth," now ... do we?
...something to think about, I'd say.
Observer17Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-25 23:16:59
Observer17 I agree that's definitely worthy of prayerful meditation. I've never thought about that. As I usually say... That's on my list of things to study.
One thing is for sure... If Jehovah wants us to" get out of her" we are doing just that. I stopped preaching or teaching the 1914 doctrine years ago .I made a decision recently to stop teaching 2 tiered salvation. This site has definitely helped me stop being in about that teaching and face the reality... It's a falsehood. Jesus said Christians are going to heaven. We know that there will also be ones inheriting the earth according to the Bible. I don't know all the details about it and I don't really need to know...but I can be obedient to what I know. I'm no longer preaching any gospel that differs from the Christ or Apostles.The 1914 and 144,00 teachings are not any different than outright falsehoods such as hellfire,purgatory and reincarnation etc that other religions are teaching.
So I'm "getting out of her" by abandoning false teachings and I'm not sharing in her sins any longer by preaching or teaching it.Now if "getting out of her "means leaving this organization physically I pray to Jehovah that he helps me to see that. I pray for my brothers... I tell Jehovah that inspite of all that's going on ...there's still some good here. However, I'm not sure whether or not that's good enough.
Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-25 23:19:05
That should read "stop being in denial about that teaching"
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-25 23:43:57
I don't know how many other ways I can say this without repeating myself. Judge the action, not the man. Leave the judgment of men to God.
Does the clergy of the Catholic church act like the man of lawlessness? Does the ecclesiastical hierarchy of Jehovah's Witnesses act like the man of lawlessness? Is the Pope a man of lawlessness? Are the individual members of the Governing Body men of lawlessness? How would you answer each of those questions?
Reply by on 2014-01-25 19:07:50
Yes people dont seem to undertand that he that practices his judgement without mercy will get his judgement without mercy Let others go down that road if theywant
Comment by JimmyG on 2014-01-25 19:35:28
Just adding to the regular emailer's comments about knowingly teaching doctrinal error. Another example can be attributed to Fred Franz. In the book 'Man's salvation out of world distress at Hand!' released in 1975, on page 98 paragraph 19, it uses the expression "governing body of Jehovah's visible organization" in relation to the imprisonment of the WT directors in 1918-19. This book was likely written by Franz, yet later in that same year, he gave a talk at a Gilead graduation. The content of that talk showed that Franz obviously knew that no such entity as a governing body existed in the 1st century. He went on to become the President of the WT in 1977 and perpetuated this myth of a governing body until his death in 1992.
Likely the current GB knows about this and the 1914 myth, as well as the many other doctrinal myths that have been perpetuated. It's gone on for so long now that they probably think they have no choice but to carry on with it.
Comment by anderestimme on 2014-01-25 23:12:12
The big question is, to what extent does Jesus approve of and bless the organization? Probably no one here believes they are God's spokesman, but surely there are things that have been done right. The brotherhood is real and it's beautiful. The conduct of our brothers during the Holocaust is a monument to Christian moral fortitude. I have many friends active in the organization and they are wonderful people. So I'm not prepared to write it off entirely just yet.
Is the GB guilty of willful deceit? I doubt it. Let's face it, the more heavily invested you are in a belief system, the harder it is to dwell on the 'what if I'm wrong' question. It's harder for Richard Dawkins to admit there is a Designer than for atheist X. Who is more heavily invested in the organization than the GB? I think they are guilty of a kind of Orwellian double-think. On some level they must know that all is not well with our doctrines, but they can't bear to go there. Call it intellectual cowardice, convenient denial, or whatever - it still falls far short, in my mind, of the kind of evil sometimes attributed to them.
Ironically, most of us have met 'good Christians' of other denominations that, for the same reason, couldn't leave them. Personally, I've often felt that good people, whatever their denominations and belief system foibles, will fare relatively well on judgment day. By the same token, I'm willing to leave the judgment of the GB to the One who has the wisdom and authority to do it.
The GB will not 'get away with it', if that's what anyone is worried about. This website is one way that they are reaping what they've sown. There are, no doubt others. The falling Memorial attendance figures may be one; decreased cash flow another. There may be more. I doubt double-think is ultimately healthy for the soul. So I don't feel the need to try to join some rebellion. God's immutable laws will bring down those who 'teach commands of men as doctrines' and can't - or won't - admit it, even to themselves.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-25 23:52:17
Amen!
Reply by imjustasking on 2014-01-26 09:07:27
anderestimme, on some level I agree with your sentiments on another level I disagree.
I agree that to pass judgement on teachings is not right. I GET that ALL denominations have something wrong. Some churches believe in hellfire, we believe in 1914. So my condemnation is not for such error.
BUT, when justice is perverted behind a Godly veneer and Gods HOLY name, that is all together something more egregious.
Case in point:
CASE ONE - CONTI CANDICE
The recent Conti Candice child molestation trial, in which the Society has launched its appeal against the guilty judgement on these grounds:
(i). As Candice was only 8 years old at the time of the offence and not baptised she does not count as a JW, and because she is not a witness they have no fiduciary responsibility to her
(ii). The offence did not happen on property owned by the Society, therefore they are not responsible for what happened
(iii) The individual committing the offence was (and I quote) a 'mere rank and file' member of the congregation, and not by somebody appointed as representatives of them (ie an elder, servant etc)
(iv) The offense happened AFTER field service, therefore they are not responsible as to what goes on in people private life.
I HAVE PERSONALLY READ THEIR SUBMISSION IN ITS ENTIRETY AND I AM NOT RELYING ON ANYBODY ELSE'S INTERPRETATION.
TO MAKE SUCH A DEFENCE AGAINST A CHILD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SCRIPTURAL SUBTLETIES SURROUNDING DATES OR THE LIKE. THAT DEFENCE IS NOTHING BUT PURE SATANIC EVIL AND WICKEDNESS. END OF.
CASE TWO - Gordon Leighton
In this sick story the elders aided by the Societies barrister (attorney for our American friends) held up a child abuse case going to court for three years. Read about it here.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2365992/Gordon-Leighton-child-abuse-trial-orders-Jehovahs-Witness-leaders-evidence.html
It is my intention (God willing) to get the transcript for this case and publish it on the web for all to see, just how SICK the Society is.
After these two cases (around August) last year I stopped all my association with JW's on a congregational and field service level (I am not disfellowshiped or dissociated).Before that, I was prepared to overlook the doctrinal errors, NGO scandal etc as something Jesus would sort out in due time. But reading their submission shook me to the core so much, I knew I could never attend another meeting or go out on the service anymore. Even my niece, who had stopped going to the meetings, but was still very defensive of the Society said OMG when she read it. It is truly unbelievable; but sadly true.
The deliberate perversion of truth and justice is all together something different. THEY have moved the game onto a whole new level. I felt I could no longer be mentally or physically associated with an organisation that simply LIED and TWISTED justice in such a blatant and shocking manner. Talk about wolves in sheep clothing.
I know the individual brothers are okay and I have no problem with them. They are God fearing folk, just like the rest of us, who have been led up the garden path. But what about the men in the legal department and the GB who sanctioned such a submission? Can we not call them out for who/what they are?
Their evil is so bad, it is not a matter of us who are standing on the side lines calling them names. As Meleti correctly said, two wrongs don't make a right. But this? No my brother, their actions are nothing but evil and needs to be pointed out. This is not about petty name calling but sounding out a WARNING!!!
What do you think the reaction of the brothers would be, if they knew their sweet little daughter or son who gets up on the platform to give a talk, meant literally NOTHING to the Society. These same men who they look to for spiritual guidance would consider anybody expedient and would fight you tooth and nail, to obstruct your justice?
So IMHO anybody who obstructs justice in such a way is EVIL. Again, to labour the point we are not talking about a moment of weakness, a passionate fit or something like that. To COLD BLOODILY deny your brother and sisters (baptised or not, young or old) in a court of Law is wicked. This is not like Peter, who was caught off guard. This is cold blooded and pre-meditated. For what? Mammon!!! One can only imagine what Barbara Anderson over at Silent Lambs must have been privy to.
Of course the final judgement lies with Christ, and it is my hope that such individuals would see the errors of their ways and change. But they will not be helped by our muted silence.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-26 10:44:34
(Psalm 4:4) BE agitated, but do not sin. Have YOUR say in YOUR heart, upon YOUR bed, and keep silent.
(Acts 3:14, 15, 17) Yes, YOU disowned that holy and righteous one, and YOU asked for a man, a murderer, to be freely granted to YOU, 15 whereas YOU killed the Chief Agent of life...And now, brothers, I know that YOU acted in ignorance, just as YOUR rulers also did.
How can we balance these two scriptures? Peter certainly wasn't keeping silent when he accused the crowd of disowning the Christ. Yet he stopped short of condemning the men by impugning bad motive. Reading the accounts leading up to Jesus' death, it's hard for me to imagine that the rulers acted in ignorance.
The Psalm says to be agitated, but to not sin. To remain silent. When there is wrongdoing, it is a natural tendency for righteous men to want to do something about it. And we should, but within the limits of our authority. Micah 6:8 says 'to be modest in walking with our God.' That means operating within the bounds of our divinely assigned authority. To go outside those bounds is to sin. Peter stayed within those bounds and showed modesty by condemning and exposing the wrong action of the crowd and their leaders without presuming to judge motivation.
Could their be a more reprehensible act than that of murdering the Son of God?
In the emotionally charged area of child abuse, we do well to imitate Peter. Yes, we should reveal anything we know. Put the facts out there. Expose wrongdoing. Give people what they need to make informed decisions and protect themselves and their young. However, we have to exercise caution that our indignation doesn't cause us to sin by exceeding our authority, by passing judgment and condemning the men, not the action.
The Lord is our King and vengeance is his to repay.Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-26 11:18:18
These tactics of legally maneuvering are disgusting. I feel no sympathy for them because they put themselves in this position so they are reaping what they have sown. If they did not insist on having an “organization” or company with all these rules and guidelines and allowed God’s people congregations to be independent and govern themselves separately ( like the first century Christians) they would not have this problem. That’s why the “Jehovah’s Witnesses are being sued” ….that’s how people will perceive this. They are no different from the Catholics “organization” in this regard as far as the “world” are concerned. They are bringing reproach upon Jehovah’s name…. the same name that they behave like that they are sole guardians of .
With the implosion of the internet and easily accessible information regarding the JW’s they are being exposed on so many levels like never before. You cannot say that your organization is spiritually in charge of the sheep’s interests and publicly separate from them while implying that they are “legally” are not in charge of them. I am sure this is not the first or last time they will be embarrassed . What they are doing is sinful. I pray for the family that there faith is not weakened in Christ even if it is weakened in “God’s organization”. No wonder many become atheists or abandon religion all together …many of them are “sighing and groaning over the detestable” things of these religious leaders. I doubt the first century Christian congregations needed a legal department. If they continue to be part of this commercial system there is more to come. The end does not justify the means IMO.
Even with that said …Meleti’s counsel is no less true. I will admit your statements threw me for a loop . I am a mother and this brings me to tears. Yet, the scripture at Psalm 4:4 is applicable for this situation. I’ll stay in prayer for this family , congregation and to move the hearts of the brothers in this leading this organization.
Comment by Vassy on 2014-01-26 16:17:33
On the elders' fiduciary duty to protect the 'rank and file', please see what a brother defending the Watchtower has to say:
http://thirdwitness.com/childabuse/Fiduciary.htmlReply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-26 17:14:01
I do not agree with this brother . I'm not sure what "apostates" (or individuals who disagree with the slave) has to do with this matter. This is what happens when you mix religion and business. I could be wrong but the act of seperating the Governing Body (the spiritual leaders) from the Watchtower corporate presidency and its Board of Directors is smoke and mirrors. This is an example of how business and religion can be a conflict of interest. If this happened to my child I would have gone to the elders first for direction on how to contact the authorities.. In light of this information, I would contact the elders and the authorties in equal fashion. However blaming the parents and making the elders the "fall guy" is despicable. Everyone knows that the lines of when to involve the "wordly " courts are blurred. I'm not an Elder so I don't know what their guidelines are regarding molestation. I'm sure they did the best they could to follow the society's guidelines.
Reply by imjustasking on 2014-01-26 18:25:21
Meleti thank you for your wise counsel. Indeed Jesus has been appointed as judge and not me.
Regarding the link to thirdwitness, these are my observations:
1. Jesus and Jehovah knows that 'wicked' men can hide behind the law. What may pass as a legal defense on TECHNICAL grounds based on MAN'S law, has no traction with GOD'S MORAL laws.
Psa 94:20 You don't help crooked judges. They use the law to make life hard for the people.(ERV)
Psa 94:20 Will the throne causing adversities be allied with you While it is framing trouble by decree? (NWT)
Pro 12:22 The LORD hates people who tell lies, but he is pleased with those who tell the truth. (ERV)
Slavery was legal in Britain, based on man's laws for hundreds of years. Did that make it morally right?
Gassing Jews in Nazi Germany was technically legal by man's laws. Did that make it morally right?
2. No insult intended, but thirdwitness is a stooge of the Society. He is well known for defending the indefensible. I remember him on e-Watchman's site, making the most ridiculous defense for the Society, regardless of their error.
3. If the Society are so confident that they are standing on solid ground, why don't they tell the brothers OPENLY that if their un-baptised children get molested, it has nothing to do with them? That they should not look to the elders or the Society for any kind of redress.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is made acceptable to God by being united to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made acceptable to God by being united to her Christian husband. If this were not so, their children would be like pagan children; but as it is, they are acceptable to God.
4. If un-baptised children are not technically JW's why are they counted at meetings? Why do they participate in FS? Why are they paraded on the front of literature as model examples to the world, what children should be?
5. Since when are brothers referred to as ' MERE RANK AND FILE'? Clearly the bros and sisters are just 'canon fodder' for the Society.They brothers are to knock on the doors, place the magazines, to be grateful for what they get, to SUBMIT and shut up!! Can you imagine Jesus referring to his disciples as 'mere rank and file'?
6. So a child is molested at a brothers home, but that is not their responsibility, because the sin did not happen in property of the Society. Really? I marvel at their sophistry. So if I sleep with your wife/husband they should not care or have any authority to sanction me. After all, it happened in a private home away from the Societies property. Can you imagine being in a judicial committee and using that as your defense?
I could go on, but as you can see,it doesn't take much thought to expose how morally bankrupt the Society are.
Their legal shenanigans make get them of the hook for now, but the real judge is not going to be hoodwinked by such corrupted double speak.
Comment by JimmyG on 2014-01-26 16:24:40
Here, here imjustasking. So much for the 'spiritual paradise' in the organisation. There are at least 8 more filed child abuse cases against the WT in the US awaiting trial dates and 3 more to come soon- all with the same legal firm. Bring it on!
Comment by XFactor on 2014-01-26 17:13:04
Hi all,
Question: Who Will Prove To Be The Very “LAST PROPHET” That God Sends???
(Acts 3:19-23)
The term last prophet is used in religious contexts to refer to the last person through whom God speaks,
after which there is to be no other. The appellation also refers to that prophet which will induce mankind to
turn back to God.
Islam
Main article: Khatam an-Nabuwwah
The phrase "last prophet" is used primarily in Islam, where it refers to Muhammad, whom Muslims hold to be
the final prophet in the monotheistic Abrahamic tradition.
Other religions
Other religious traditions have used this or similar terms.
Mani, founder of the Persian faith Manichaeism, also claimed to be the Seal of the Prophets and the last
prophet.
In Mandaeanism, John the Baptist is considered the last prophet.
The Iglesia ni Cristo, an independent, non-trinitarian Christian religion based in the Philippines, professes
that Felix Manalo was the last messenger sent by God to reestablish the original church founded by Jesus.
The above information was taken from Wikipedia. To view this on Wikipedia, please see link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_prophet
It has been interesting to note, some reformers from among Jehovah's Witnesses, who have recently become
aware of the blatant "lawlessness" [Matthew 24:12] practiced by the leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization, have come to the ridiculous, UNSCRIPTURAL conclusion that heavenly enthroned Jesus Christ
himself, will soon have to personally come back to earth, and literally straighten out God's Name People, yes
particularly the chaste "virgin" class of the so-called "anointed" remnant from among them, so that these
individuals can be re-grouped and "restored" back to God's favor. Yes, Jesus must personally come back,
to personally cleanse again for a SECOND TIME the "anointed" from among Jehovah's Witnesses, to remove
the horrible stain of idolatry and outright apostasy itself, that is thought to rest upon them today. Again we
repeat, Jesus is thought to do this particularly for the so-called "anointed" from among Jehovah's Witnesses,
because of sins like the ten (10) year United Nations NGO Affair of 1991-2001. It is thought, these
particular individuals must be "bathed" clean again, and fully participate in another special "bath," that all
"anointed" ones supposedly have already received at their initial anointing or unction. (Please compare Titus
3:5.) This is what they believe, and even teach to others. -- Please see also 2 Corinthians 11:3, 4; Proverbs
26:11; 2 Peter 2:20-22.
Now, what do you think of that???
Well, there is a certain special bible verse, namely Acts 3:21 that actually removes all doubt about such a
foolish notion, on the part of these particular reformers among God's Name People, Jehovah's Witnesses.
Please consider the following information that will scripturally address this point and explain the true meaning
of Acts 3:20, 21.
"A PROPHET LIKE MOSES" TO BE RAISED UP DURING THE "RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS" -- Acts 3:19-23
As we recall, Acts 3:19-21 speaks of this great day of spiritual "restoration," this way from the New World
Translation:
"Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come
from the person of Jehovah and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for you, Jesus whom HEAVEN,
INDEED, MUST HOLD WITHIN ITSELF until the times of RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS of which God
spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time."
Yes, did you notice the verse says, "HEAVEN, MUST HOLD" ... JESUS ... "WITHIN ITSELF", yes until
spiritual "restoration of all things" is complete? Did you notice this point, clearly stated? Did you notice it?
Of course, this clearly means Jesus himself, DOES NOT DIRECTLY PARTICIPATE in the full "restoration"
of EARTHLY apostate Israel of our times, yes, the wayward "12 tribes of Israel" in the last days that must
experience a true "re-generation" [Greek: palingensis -- Matthew 19:28; Titus 3:5]. No, Jesus does not! No,
but just as the verse says above, "heaven must hold within itself," Jesus who resides in heaven, yes, until the
full "restoration of all things" is accomplished by "Elijah," just as Jesus promised. (Matthew 17:10, 11) That is
precisely what Acts 3:21 means. The bible is clear on that point.
To further that thought, we vividly recall the fact that Jesus himself, referred to his being in heaven with all of
his faithful disciples when the magnificent "Restoration of all things," as the prophets calls it, commences upon
earth. Yes, Jesus said at Matthew 19:28 in the New World Translation,
"...Truly I say to you, in the re-creation [Greek: palingenesis], when the Son of man sits down upon his
glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve
tribes of Israel." -- Please compare also Titus 3:5 where the same Greek word is employed.
Yes, Jesus showed that he would actually be in heaven, sitting upon thrones along with the faithful from
among the first century, "judging" together the "12 tribes of Israel" who exist at that time upon earth, in
apostasy.
Interestingly, noted bible scholar W.E. Vine, commenting on Matthew 19:28 and Acts 3:21 makes the following
connection with outright apostasy and the need for total "regeneration" of faith, for the entire nation of Israel
by saying:
"In Matt. 19:28 the word [palingenesis] is used, in the Lord's discourse, in the wider sense, of the "restoration
of all things" (Acts 3:21, R.V.) when, as a result of the Second Advent of Christ, Jehovah 'sets His King upon
His holy hill of Zion' (Ps. 2:6), and Israel, NOW IN APOSTASY, is restored to its destined status, in the
recognition and under the benign sovereignty of its Messiah." -- See Vines Expository of New Testament
Words under subheading for the word 'Regeneration.' "
Therefore, we can see again the weighty connection between Acts 3:21 and Matthew 19:28 and how, the
theme of "apostasy" is at the core of the discussion, when Jesus made such an insightful statement. Clearly,
Jesus is saying that he himself would be actually, IN HEAVEN, while the nation of Israel was to be found in
"apostasy" and needing full "restoration" during the "time of the end."
Now, with that thought in mind, lets' consider what Jesus clearly said at Matthew 17:11. He stated:
"...Elijah indeed, is coming and WILL RESTORE ALL THINGS."
Yes, did you notice what Jesus said above? Yes, Jesus clearly said...Elijah was coming...as in the future. And
when he comes, Jesus said that Elijah, and NOT HIMSELF, but only Elijah, would indeed "RESTORE ALL
THINGS." That's what Jesus said was going to happen, in the last days...during our day and time.
And of course, we know Jesus never claimed to be "Elijah," did he? Also, we know that this verse could not
apply to "John the Baptist" as many claim again today, because the bible record itself does not show John the
Baptist at any time, "restoring all things" during his brief ministry of some 6 months, does it? No, but it was
Jesus Christ himself, who "restored all things" in the first century...isn't that so? So John the Baptist did not
"restore all things" by no stretch of the imagination in the first century, but of course Jesus did...isn't that so?
In fact, we know that John the Baptist was even asked, point-blank by inquiring ones, was he actually "Elijah"
the promised coming one, and the inspired record shows he emphatically said he was not. So nothing could be
clearer than John the Baptist's OWN WORDS, wouldn't you agree?
Yes, the bible records John the Baptist himself as saying,
"And they asked him [John the Baptist]: What, then? Are you Elijah? And he said: I AM NOT..."--
John 1:21
Therefore, the promised coming of "Elijah," who was to "restore all things," thus will logically prove to be
a MODERN-DAY PROPHET, one that Jehovah God uses to establish a Great Spiritual Temple in God's Name,
and will lead the nation of "Israel," God's Name People...."back to God" far away from apostasy. This one we
speak of, would be known as God's "Chieftain" who "eats bread" in the East Gate where God resides, and also
as the "Servant" that brings the nation of Israel "back" to Jehovah, at God's request. -- See Isaiah 49:5,
6; Ezekiel 44:3.
Therefore, all of this thus means, during the time that this Specially Appointed Prophet of God is present upon
earth, carrying out his Special Ministry to "restore all things," Jesus would be in heaven. (Matthew 17:11) In
this way, the “Last Prophet” would be unveiled to all the world, finally! Think about it. -- See also Matthew
19:28.
Therefore, just as promised by Jesus to occur at the hands of the coming "prophet" who is very much like
Moses, full "restoration of all things," would occur while Jesus was in heaven. In fact, you will notice after
verses 20 and 21, yes Acts 3:22, 23 continues this thought by saying,
"In fact, Moses said, Jehovah God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet LIKE ME. You
must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you. Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that
Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people."
Yes, this "Prophet" who is most like Moses spoken of above, would be the same one foretold to come we know
as the one called "Elijah," again the one that Jesus said would also "restore all things." (Matthew 17:10, 11)
However, in this instance, he is simply referred to as the "Prophet" who is most like Moses. Yes, he becomes
the one who comes with a "covenant," like Moses (Isaiah 42:6; Isaiah 49:8). Indeed, his earthly ministry
would be during a very, very difficult time ... yes during the time of the terrific, imposing ride of the long
foretold symbolic "Four Horsemen" of the book of Revelation, yes where great "warfare," worldwide
"famine" or food shortages, deadly "plagues" and diseases of all kinds, and finally untimely "death" wrecks
havoc upon all unsuspecting mankind, a havoc so great that will undoubtedly claim the lives of a quarter
(1/4) of the world's existing population...Wow!!! -- Please see Matthew 24:7, 8; Revelation 5:1-5;
Revelation 6:1-8.
And since this "prophet like Moses" is shown to be the very Last Prophet that God will send to Israel, and
earth itself, then yes ... God's Name People, must pay STRICT HEED to everything, yes everything he says, as
Jehovah is not going to send another prophet to the nation of Israel, or earth's inhabitants after this time. No,
he will not, the bible shows us. Therefore, anyone who does NOT strictly listen to the voice of this Last
Prophet that God sends, will be as the verse says, "completely destroyed from among the people," in
Gehenna or the Lake of fire, everlasting death. Think about it! -- Please compare Isaiah 49:8; Malachi 4:5, 6;
Matthew 17:10, 11; Acts 3:22, 23.
Therefore, even under such dire straits for the world at large, still this spiritual "restoration of all things" from
Jehovah, under the leadership of the foretold coming of the "Prophet" most like Moses, then must first be fully
accomplished during the period we call the "re-creation" or palin-genesis [see footnote NWT Lg Prt bible] as
spoken of at Matthew 19:28, 29. And all of this occurs before, before the "coming system of things" or the
1,000 year reign of peace can begin, where finally the repentant servants of God, repentant "Israel," finally
gains "everlasting life," as Jesus said.
Now, most would agree, when we come to understand the entire situation facing mankind, the enormous
weight of this job, that this IS a pretty big assignment for one, puny imperfect man "made of clay" to handle,
wouldn't you agree? -- Job 33:6
Therefore this one, this modern day "Elijah," then would have to have a strong force, a generous portion of
God's Holy Spirit upon himself, to handle such a weighty assignment from God, wouldn't you think? At least,
comparable to what Moses had himself, but perhaps even more so. We remember Moses had an abundance of
holy spirit, so much so, as to share "holy spirit" with 70 other men. -- See Numbers 11:25.
Therefore, we must consider what’s at stake here. Yes, "Elijah" must fully accomplish his mission, because so
much is at stake in terms of lives, human lives being lost possibly. Thus, reasonably we would expect he would
need a generous supply of God's Holy Spirit to fully accomplish his ministry.
XFactorReply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-01-26 18:33:50
Hope you don't mind me scanning this since my finger was getting tired on the wheel.
sw
Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-26 17:54:36
"Elijah" would need more than holy spirit . Elijah also had the ability to performed powerful works. According to the Insight book eight miracles are credited to Elijah in the Bible account. They are: (1) shutting off rain from heaven, (2) keeping the flour and oil supply of the widow of Zarephath renewed, (3) resurrecting the widow’s son, (4) having fire fall from heaven in answer to prayer, (5) having rain break the drought in answer to prayer, (6) calling down fire on King Ahaziah’s captain and his 50 men, (7) calling down fire on a second captain and his 50, and (8) parting the Jordan River by smiting it with his official garment. His ascension to the heavens was also miraculous, but it was the direct act of God, not something initiated by a prayer or proclamation made by Elijah.
I can't say in all my life I've read that scripture or paid attention to it. If such a thing is going on today as you suggested in the other post..an accurate prophecy/prediction falls short of this "Elijah"status. I'm sure Jesus didn't have Jehovah's Witnesses specifically in mind regards to apostasy. We are all apostates right? Apostates by comparision of our teachings/understandings to that of the first century congregations before the Apostles died. Nobody has it all right. How can we after the Great apostasy that Jesus foretold? Jesus knows it's not our fault and we do the best that we can with what we have. He can definitely judge motive and hearts when it comes to misleading other people...Reply by imjustasking on 2014-01-26 18:43:38
I don't think the great apostasy has occurred.
There are many lines to my line of reasoning, but time does not permit to go into all of them right now.
A Great Apostasy/rebellion nearly happened with the Gnostics who nearly succeeded in hijacking Christianity with teachings of the demiurge, Sophia etc. That was a real and present danger. Had they succeeded we would not be talking of Jehovah as the benevolent Creator but as an evil impostor.
Rather, there has been lots of error and wicked men.Jesus predicted as much with the parable of the wheat and weeds. But a Great rebellion? No, that is yet to come!!
Of course that is my opinion and I freely admit that I may be talking rubbish. But if we ever get a post on the topic by Meleti or Apollos, I'll expand on my thoughts.Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-26 18:57:51
That's a very interesting point. You may be right. I definitely have to research it more whenever I get the time.
Reply by Anonymous on 2014-01-26 19:51:47
Hello GWIT,
Miracles are not essential in God’s scheme of things. The Israelites were a very stubborn and rebellious people who came to believe that the only way that a person could prove he was a prophet was to do miracles. (Mark 8:12; Luke 11:16; John 2:18) But seeing the many miracles that Jehovah’s prophets performed over the years did not save these people from Jehovah’s destructive anger. Consider how many miracles Jesus performed but did the nation of Israel follow him on the basis of all of the miracles that they saw? Yes, Elijah did perform miracles before the people but did these stop them from continuing to carry on their idolatrous worship so that they could return to Jehovah? ̶ 1 Kings 18:22-40; 19:14
Noah did not perform any miracles yet on the basis of his preaching work, the world of that time was destroyed. In Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), was not the rich man told that his brothers, if they refused to listen to God’s word, would not respond to a miracle either. Therefore miracles are not designed to convince God’s people that He had sent a prophet to them. John 12:48 shows us that it is their response to the word that the prophet spoke IN THE LAST DAY that would either condemn them or save them.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-27 07:22:20
Correct, yet the miracles demonstrated that the prophet had God's spirit. Nevertheless, Satan is also capable of performing 'great signs and wonders' so as to mislead even the chosen ones. (Mt. 24:24) So the true test of a prophet is the prophecy himself, not his evangelizing prowess.
(Deuteronomy 18:22) when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’
The leadership of our Organization have failed this test repeatedly.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-27 07:23:36
Incidentally, there is on proof that Noah engaged in a preaching work.
Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-01-27 07:58:18
I do agree with you to a point... I have no doubt that Moses and Elijah plays significant roles in the outworking God's purpose whether it is symbolically or figuratively .I believe Jesus was trying to tell his apostles that by means of the Transfiguration. However there is no comparison IMO between Noah and Elijah. If Jesus meant Noah or someone that was "Noahlike" he would have said it. I have to say though ..I don't really understand that Scripture or even have an idea what it means..so I welcome direction from anyone on it.
Comment by Katrina on 2014-01-26 23:34:59
Changing baptismal vows the GB of the JW organization, as far as I can see is a huge rebellion involving millions of JW that have been baptised in the name of an organization.
Matt 28:18-20
All authority has been given to Christ, in heaven and also the earth. His commandments on baptism have been broken, by a group of men who took it upon themselves to usurp Christ authority.
In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the holy spirit.
to in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the spirit directed organization.
The holy spirit has be replaced by an organization.
So those now baptised and since 1985 have also given a vow to men.Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-27 09:26:43
Katrina ,
That’s a very true and disheartening statement . I was very young when I got baptized it seemed like the next step .. ..I joined the school at 6 , unbaptized publisher at 8, got baptized at 11 and started regular pioneering at 11. My mother was very uneasy about me getting baptized so young but the brothers kept admonishing her not to hold me back . My father did not want to stand in the way either after I begged them to let me do it because I loved Jehovah etc. Maybe my parents knew more than I did. They left the truth 10 years ago with my brothers and sisters and I have been struggling in the organization ever since .
I will not make the same mistake with my children. I am not sure how the very personal decision to get baptized also means an automatic enrollment into a membership with an organization. I wonder if other churches do the same thing ? Do you have to be a member to be baptized? I would have been better off getting baptized in my tub . However, what’s done is done. Jehovah knows why I did it.
Reply by BeenMislead on 2014-01-27 09:39:05
I agree Katrina !!!
The baptismal questions changed in 1985.
------------------------------------------------------------
Here are the questions when I got baptized:
(W60 5/15 par. 23-24) - What Prevents Me from Getting Baptized?)
23 The first question is: Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?
24 The second question is: On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?
------------------------------------------------------------
Here are the questions now:
(W85 6/1 pg. 30) - Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication)
The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?
------------------------------------------------------------
The only explanation given for the change is as follows which seems to suggest that all the people baptized before 1985 did not fully comprehend what their dedication and baptism meant. Which is you now must adhere to the authority of the organization:
(W87 4/15 pg. 15 - Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism - {under the Footnotes})
“Recently the two questions addressed to baptismal candidates were simplified so that candidates could answer with full comprehension of what is involved in coming into intimate relationship with God and his earthly organization.”
------------------------------------------------------------
Here is what it says in our publications about dedication.
(WT66 10/1 pg. 604 - Serving with Everlasting Life in View)
“This is what we mean when we dedicate our lives to Jehovah. We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah.”
(What does the Bible Really Teach - Pg. 183)
“Remember, too, that you have made a dedication to Jehovah God himself, not to a work, a cause, other humans, or an organization. Your dedication and baptism are the beginning of a very close friendship with God—an intimate relationship with him.”
As you can see the change to the second question seems to be in contradiction with what it says in the publications about dedicating ourselves to an organization.
------------------------------------------------------------
What did Jesus tell us at Matthew 28:19,20?
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, ...”
There is no mention of an organization there!!Reply by imjustasking on 2014-01-27 10:53:56
can anybody show me in scriptures that to get baptised on needs to be dedicated?
the word dedication only is mentioned 5 times in the bible and never in connection with baptism
another false construct, by a false Christian denomination.
O hum.....Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-01-27 16:40:58
"That which corresponds to this is also now saving you, namely, baptism, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the request made to God for a good conscience,) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 3:21)
This is the only scripture that defines baptism in its simplest terms.
The following are the only scriptures that tell what the Jews actually dedicated and who or what they dedicated to:
"They themselves went in to Ba′al of Pe′or, and they proceeded to dedicate themselves to the shameful thing, and they came to be disgusting like [the thing of] their love." (Hosea 9:10)
"Later, as certain ones were speaking concerning the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: 'As for these things that you are beholding, the days will come in which not a stone upon a stone will be left here and not be thrown down.'” (Luke 21:5, 6)
"But you men say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother: “Whatever I have by which you may get benefit from me is corban, (that is, a gift dedicated to God,)”’— 12 You men no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother, 13 and thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition which you handed down. And many things similar to this you do.” (Mark 7:11-13)
Much of what we are taught is implicit but only the important is explicit.
Comment by Katrina on 2014-01-27 10:50:32
God's word is truth
I hope I didn't make you feel bad by posting what I did or anyone else baptized after the changes, as I went to my sisters baptism whom I help come into the faith, I myself never picked up on this either, and no doubt I myself if I had not been baptized before would have done the same.
As when we do go through with out baptism our hearts are with Jehovah and his Son, repentance and forgiveness of sins, it is only after we realize that all is not right, that the veil so to speak is lifted and we see, as we truly want to serve our heavenly Father in spirit and truth.
Satan is very crafty and disguises himself well, as Christ said men will come in sheep's clothing but are wolves, Christ gives us all the clues of who these imposter's are. But as you know as JW are taught all the negative applies to Christendom, or just a few b/s sitting in the KH that may have apostate thoughts, how they take followers after themselves is something I have never seen.
Apostasy always starts from the top, what better way to trap or stumble the sheep even the chosen ones if possible than to infiltrate the top where the food comes down. bit by bit over the years we are being poisoned.
I think this would have to be the most insidious of all, to replace the holy spirit with an organization.
Jehovah tells us that “the stupid prophets,” who “have spoken untruth” and “have visioned a lie” in his name, and who actually “expect him to fulfill their prophecies,” (NLT) are found in the “intimate group of my people.” (Ezek. 13:3,6,7,9; NWT)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-27 11:24:24
Not at all, Katrina. This subject has come up before and I agree with the view that the way we handle baptism in the Organization is not in keeping with what is laid down in Scripture.
Also, there does not appear to be the "baptism in symbol of dedication" link that we have taught to all our disciples.Reply by anderestimme on 2014-01-27 14:05:32
I'm wary also of the never-stated-in-scripture idea of baptism in symbol of dedication. But it brings up the legitimate question of what baptism means. It must mean something besides "I declare myself Christian and waterproof". If baptism indicates that we have put faith in God, his Son and the power of the Holy Spirit, and that we now put the kingdom first and live no longer for ourselves, doesn't that mean we are demonstrating a dedication? I'm throwing this out there because I'd like to hear what others are thinking on the subject. (Meleti, if you feel that the meaning of baptism is best left for another day, that's fine also.)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-27 14:16:05
No, let's go for it. I'd like to hear what others have to say as well.
Reply by Chris on 2014-01-28 00:31:38
Our relationship with Jehovah is based on undeserved kindness through the ransom of His Son.
We can do nothing to earn salvation apart from faith in that arrangement and the works that result from exercising that faith.
We should want to please Him because we love Him for what He has done for US.
The organization promotes dedication as if it were some form of paying off our debt by monthly installments. As if somehow we gain credit with God.
In a sense, the WTS use of dedication is a form of bringing us under law.....theirs
Subtle but extremely damaging.
My 2 cents worthReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-28 08:10:00
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Chris.
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-27 11:33:05
You did not make me feel bad at all Katrina ! Believe me IMO lies/being misled is more hurtful than hard cold truth/reality. A sister told me about this site a few months back when I opened up to her about the battle of my thoughts on what the bible teaches vs. what’s being taught via the platform, publications etc. When I finally mustered up the courage to look at this site , one of the first posts I came across was very similar to yours. So the wound is not as fresh :)
I will say what gave me the push was the accusations of harboring private or ideas in my heart was tantamount to testing Jehovah( or a sign of apostatizing). I have NEVER publically went against what the organization teaches or advocated my own interpretations of the bible to anyone. I have given this organization my blood, sweat, tears, sacrifice and made many life altering decisions for what I believed was right in Jehovah’s eyes. But demanding my heart too? No, they cannot have that. My heart is reserved for Jehovah and his Son who is deserving of it but yet never has never demanded it from me.
Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 02:44:21
At baptism we publicize our acceptance of Christ’s
blood, which God dedicated to our reconciliation
for salvation of our souls, and to the declaring of
Him righteous by means of our faith in its
redeeming value.
We are the objects of God’s grace, who works in us
by means of Christ - dwelling in our hearts - that
which is well pleasing in His sight.
Having been dedicated to the appropriation of
His indescribable free gift through Christ’s
doing of God’s will, we are dedicated to
the Father by means of it.
And that is what ‘our’ dedication to God really
means.
After all, who is held in more esteem, the one giving
the gift, or the one merely accepting it?
Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 02:59:06
The ‘re-creation’ and ‘restoration of all things written
by the prophets,’ happens only AFTER the coming of
Christ on the clouds of Heaven,
because the 12 apostles, as being among those sleeping
in Christ now, will have to wait for us, who will survive
to the future coming and subsequent presence of Christ,
in order to be caught away TOGETHER with us, before
they are able to sit down on their thrones with us, judging
the 'twelve tribes of Israel.’
At that time too, all the nations will be streaming to the
mountain of Jehovah, and be made to speak the pure
language, which the Spirit and the Bride will teach
under the leafy trees, growing along the river of life.
Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 03:03:07
As to ‘no falsehood being found’ in the mouths of
the holy ones, we know that the anointing means
complete, 'once for all,' enlightenment by the Holy
Spirit of all core truths affecting salvation.
So while a person before their anointing might
ignorantly and innocently believe in the 1914
invisible presence doctrine,
the anointing will at once show up this core
teaching to be a lie, and it is then up to the
individual to either live up to the truth,
or deny it for selfish reasons or out of fear of man,
or because of esteeming the glory of man above
the glory that comes from the Only God.
The period of grace between knowing, and actually
‘SPEAKING truth, each one with his neighbor,’
is something to be determined by the Holy Spirit
in connection with the person concerned.
If you know these things, happy you are if you do them.
He that knows how to do what is right, and does not
do it, it is a sin to him.
To him that has, more will be given; the one that does
not live up to the level of truth given him, risks losing
appreciation even for what he has learned thus far.
There is no commandment on people to identify
themselves as Christians; those who do, are under
OBLIGATION to make sure of ALL things,
and to CONSTANTLY test whether they are
in the faith, and whether their beliefs are
scripturally sound or not.
Hence, ignorance is no excuse for believing and
TEACHING false doctrines to others.
For every WT anointed one, who will be judged by God
as innocent for believing in the 1914 lie,
God will also excuse a pastor of ‘Christendom’ for
believing in the trinity and hell fire lies,
because He is not a respecter of persons or religions.
My people right or wrong is not His measure of justice.
And besides, what if the WT were to be found by God
to be the most reprehensible part of Christendom,
because of being the ‘closest’ to the truth?
What would get you more jail time, being found in
possession of a crumpled up piece of toilet paper
with $100 dollar written across it,
or, with what undoubtedly can only be described as the
closest thing to a perfect $100 dollar bill?
If blind people pass on fake bills, what can you say?
But which religion, above all others, prides itself on
being the only one who have spiritual sight?
That is why their sin remains.
Comment by Marissa Townsend on 2014-10-02 12:05:28
It's a pity you don't have a donate button! I'd certainly
donate to this superb blog! I guess for now i'll settle for book-marking and adding your
RSS feed to my Google account. I look forward to new updates and will share this website
with my Facebook group. Talk soon!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-10-02 12:38:46
Thank you for expressing that willingness. Funds would help us to spread the word farther and more effectively, but they would also compromise anonymity which for the present is important.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-10-02 17:19:48
Hi Meleti,
There has to be a way that we can donate anonymously ... I was browsing around the net and found this site https://www.justgive.org/about-us/privacy.jsp They claim to accept anonymous donations online without your info. or what about an old fashioned PO box that we could send money orders to :)
Otherwise I'm fresh outta ideas lolReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-10-02 18:04:49
Thank you for that GWIT. It appears that site protects the donor's privacy. We want to do that as well, but our concern is from the other end. Even with a P.O. box, a check has to be cashed. The donor then knows who the money went to. This would not be a problem were anonymity not an issue, but given the draconian methods used by the Organization, it very much is.
We have been funding this privately. Most of the cost is in lost time from work. We have to make tents too, just like Paul did. :) In any case, we will be exploring our options and looking for the leading of the spirit. Once we have some clear direction, we'll be informing the site community as we need and appreciate everyone's support and feedback. We should have answers by mid-winter.
Comment by Buster on 2015-06-26 13:08:18
Some time ago I asked some brothers why did they change the 2nd baptism question to Gods directed Organization, and. Showed them all the second questions of the past, they all looked at me like I just thrown cold water in there face, also I noticed through the years. They don't quote Jesus famous words on the subject during the baptism talk at the Assemblies, Must be New Light...Right
Comment by Norwegia on 2015-10-02 00:38:29
Norwegia
Nic w życiu nie przychodzi nam łatwo. Nie wystarczy w coś wierzyć; trzeba mieć siłę pokonywać przeszkody i walczyć by wygrać. G. Meir
[translated]
Nothing in life comes easy for us . It is not enough to believe in something ; you need to have the strength to overcome obstacles and fight to win. G. Meir