Midweek Meeting Comments – Jan. 27, 2014

Comment by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-01-27 17:49:37

Re: Abba. [For we have certainly misused it by restricting its use to a tiny minority of Jehovah’s Witnesses, claiming that the millions of other sheep have no right to use it in the fashion it is expressed in Scripture.]
When I saw the title to this talk I was reminded of last week's discussion with GWiT and others about the fulfillment of "Immanuel". When the first (and sometimes only) reasoning raised about a Bible passage is in the negative, it can be a red flag. Just as the statement "there is no evidence that Jesus was ever addressed as Immanuel" (or something like that) drew attention to itself, the same kind of thing is true of this week's talk.
Why not have a talk on the beauty of the word Abba? Why not have a talk on the beauty of the meaning of Immanuel?
No. When beautiful scripture has been suppressed in meaning in order to support our framework of the belief, the only thing we can do is reinforce that by indoctrinating in the negative. It's a real shame.
Apollos

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-27 19:17:04

  I agree with you Apollos . The part in the Reasoning book stood out to me this week as well. “Abba” and “Father” are both terms that intimately address God. It seems that JW’s ( including me) have attached some supernatural experience that anointed ones have that cause them to cry out “Abba” thus “confirming” their spiritual adoption . I am not sure that using the Arabic word has “extraordinary” significance over the English word as the w/09 p. 13 implies. ( again, translation is not my area so I can be wrong.) If I referred to my God as “Abba” I am sure I would get some blank stares or a cutting side eye from the brothers.
  Additionally it seems …….(The quotes are taken from the W03 2/15 pp. 17-22):
  • If you commit a serious sin and partake of the emblems you are doing so unworthily until you confess to the elders. After you produce “fruits” that the Elder’s deem befit repentance then you can partake of the emblems again. Otherwise you are partaking from the table of demons and the table of Jehovah .
  “Paul compared the Memorial to a communion meal in ancient Israel. He spoke of the partakers sharing together in Christ and then said: “You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of ‘the table of Jehovah’ and the table of demons.” (1 Corinthians 10:16-21) If a person who usually partakes of the Memorial emblems commits a serious sin, he should confess this to Jehovah and also seek the spiritual assistance of the older men of the congregation. (Proverbs 28:13; James 5:13-16) If he truly repents and produces fruitage befitting repentance, he would not be partaking unworthily.—Luke 3:8.
  • If you believe you have the heavenly calling it may be because you are too emotional or you may need to adjust the medications you are currently taking.
  “The false religious idea that all good people go to heaven might lead some to think that they have the heavenly calling. Hence, we need to guard against being swayed by past wrong views or other factors. For instance, some might ask themselves: ‘Do I use medications that affect my emotions? Am I inclined to have deep emotions that I could misjudge?”
  • If you believe you are anointed it may because you are haughtily seeking prominence and authority now or in the future.( Does being anointed=authority and prominence?)
  “A few might ask themselves: ‘Do I want to be prominent? Am I ambitious for authority now or as a future joint heir with Christ?’ When Kingdom heirs were called in the first century, not all of them had responsible positions in the congregation. And individuals with the heavenly calling do not seek prominence or boast about being anointed. They display the humility expected of those having “the mind of Christ.”—1 Corinthians 2:16.
  • Spirit anointing does not bring extraordinary understanding (it does in the case of the GB) Christians with the earthly hope are pretty good with the Bible too.
  “Some may have concluded that they have the heavenly calling because they have acquired considerable Bible knowledge. But spirit anointing does not bring extraordinary understanding, for Paul had to instruct and counsel certain anointed ones. (1 Corinthians 3:1-3; Hebrews 5:11-14) God has an arrangement for providing spiritual food for all his people. (Matthew 24:45-47) So nobody should think that being an anointed Christian gives him wisdom superior to that of those having the earthly hope. Spirit anointing is not indicated by proficiency in answering Scriptural questions, witnessing, or giving Bible talks. Christians with the earthly hope also do well in these respects.”
  The imagery of these few paragraphs are enough to scare anyone out of claiming to have the heavenly hope. Indoctrination runs deeply.

  • Reply by kev c on 2014-01-30 12:14:19

    Gods word is truth you say that spirit anionting does not bring with it any extraordinary understanding was that a qoute from the magazines if so I would love to hear an explanation of 1 john 2 v26 27 i am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray as for you the anionting you received from him remains in you and you do not need anyone to teach you but as his anionting teaches you about all things and that anionting is real not counterfeit just as it has taught you remain in union with him In fact this is just one of many scriptures that show being anionted with holy spirit does bring with it knowledge that is unknown to those who are not kev

    • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-30 15:51:39

      Kev C Let me clarify…
      “But spirit anointing does not bring extraordinary understanding, for Paul had to instruct and counsel certain anointed ones.” I was quoting the words in the W03 2/15 pp. 17-22. In the context of the article that I presented/read the GB believes that they (8 persons) and only 136,000 persons are anointed with God’s spirit (that is not my view).
      Looking at the scripture at 1 John you quoted with a fresh look does directly discredit that passage. We live in a world of competing voices and many of them are deceptive ( intentionally or unintentionally). Unfortunately we have to filter through the competition to get closer to what the Bible actually says . It is by means of Holy Spirit that the truth shines throughout the scriptures and can serve as a protection from deviation from the Gospel. I am learning that it’s a personal experience.
      Human teachers and listening to others who are also anointed by the spirit allows us to be admonished and instructed by each other (Eph. 4:11-16.) I believe that is why Paul said we “should not forsake the gathering of ourselves together” . That scripture in Hebrews however is not a directive or command to attend meetings at the kingdom hall without fail. When you get a group of people together (in any setting for any reason) leaders naturally emerge to control the flow of the discussion so that you can accomplish a common purpose/goal. It’s the beauty of the unrestricted flow of holy spirit.
      I have been spoiled with the preparation of my spiritual food from the Bible all my life and ate it because I was told it was nutritious. My spiritual health was still failing despite following the JW program. I admit, it’s much harder to “ prepare” meals on my own to feed myself spiritually . I love that this site gives me the recipes/directions to do it :)

      • Reply by on 2014-01-30 17:53:01

        Thank you for your reply sister i didnt think you actually believed that .I was just making a point about it thats all sorry i think its me that needs to be a bit more clear with my comments .The truth is it just amazes me now how much i see the publications condradict the bible itself kev ps your comments are very much appreciated

        • Reply by on 2014-01-30 20:20:26

          No need for apologies at all :) Texting is a challenge for me. You can't see other people's faces or hear them speak. The subtle voice and body language cues are lost in written communication.
          I'm amazed everyday Kev C at how much I am learning. It saddens me that the WT/GB uses fear and intimidation to threaten us from reading the Bible without their input.The Bible is a personal and beautiful message . Lately, I've been turned off by institutionalized spirituality (religion) . I'm praying to God to help me find a balance.

      • Reply by Joel on 2014-01-30 20:56:03

        I enjoyed your whole comment, but the last part was very nicely put.
        "I have been spoiled with the preparation of my spiritual food from the Bible all my life and ate it because I was told it was nutritious."
        What I have found is that when I mention to someone I accepted teachings of the organisation because I really believed that everything checked out and I had proved it to myself, but now realise that I was mistaken because I didn't have all the facts or the right questions, or even the will to question, I tend to get a variation on the same and to me, rather patronising answer. Basically, that I should have made more sure of it before now and we each have only ourselves to blame for our choices.
        Really? A person says this to someone who was knocking on doors as a toddler, giving talks as a child, etc? It just shows to me ever more how rationality and fairness does not come in to it.
        My thought on that has been - Oh, don't worry, I willingly take the "blame" for my choices, but I'm also going to do my best to put it right from here on in.
        "My spiritual health was still failing despite following the JW program."
        Once again, I sympathise with you completely. I don't think some people appreciate how soul sapping it is to believe you have been given the truth, yet sit there year after year listening (to mostly milky, repetitive and increasingly questionable) things over and over, looking around at all the colourfully underlined watchtowers, reams of print offs and hearing paragraph perfect answers, feeling so completely unsatisfied.

        • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-30 22:34:32

          Kev C - No need for apologies at all! :) Texting/blogging is a challenge for me. Texting takes out the context of a conversation.Body language, tone of voice, and eye contact are all lost in written communication. My first thought was that you were making an overall point but I wasn't sure so I thought it was best that I clarified that it was a quote. The scripture you quoted is what I needed today. I was battling thoughts of whether or not God has leaders in charge of leading his people today. It angers me and saddens me at the same time that the GB uses fear and intimidation to suppress our desires to read the bible without their input. I'm turned off these days by what I perceive to be institutionalized spirituality (religion) I'm praying for guidance on how to balance the scriptures to tell us to be obedient to those taking the lead and being obedient to the Christ.
          Joel- I totally understand what you are saying. The GB keeps us so busy that they have to remind us to pray and read God's word. Now, I've been reading the Bible everyday these days. For years it was my goal to get better with Daily Bible reading. Once I let go of reading reading watchtowers, yearbooks, daily texts, studying for the meetings found that I have so much more time to read the Bible. I still have lingering guilt because I have let this "spiritual routine" go. To your point the Hall has become ridiculously boring and routine for me in the last five years or so. I thought I was becoming spiritually weak or I had a lack of appreciation for spiritual things. The problem was that I was malnourished. The Bible is alone is enough for me. I'm learning to separate "scripture from doctrine"

• Reply by Joel on 2014-01-30 20:08:26

  Gave this talk tonight and I tried to convey, that we are all Gods children and how we can address him as Father, just as Jesus did in Gethsemane and just as he did in the model prayer. Mentioned how the title Father had been abused and how men try to insert themselves between us and God. Then I quoted the 2 scriptures in Romans 8:15 and Galations 4:6 to show how Christians are adopted as sons.
  I concluded on 1 Cor 15:28, showing that God wants to become all things to everyone.

Comment by Alex Rover on 2014-01-27 21:58:48

Abraham was allowed by Jehovah to question him because he was learning about divine Justice. He learned that it only required one righteous man for God not to destroy a city. Abraham may even have understood that his offspring would include such righteous man.

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-28 08:46:11

I really enjoyed that account too Alex specfically Genesis 18:16-21
" When the men got up to leave and looked down toward Sod′om,+ Abraham was walking with them to escort them. 17 Jehovah said: “Am I keeping hidden from Abraham what I am going to do?+ 18 Why, Abraham is surely going to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed* by means of him.+ 19 For I have come to know him in order that he may command his sons and his household after him to keep Jehovah’s way by doing what is right and just,+ so that Jehovah may bring about what he has promised concerning Abraham.”
20 Then Jehovah said: “The outcry against Sod′om and Go•mor′rah is indeed great,+ and their sin is very heavy.+ 21 I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.”
These passages brought to mind the article on this site regarding our secretive Judicial committees. Jehovah passed judgment on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their punishment was death. Jehovah is righteous and yet he did not feel the need to “hide “from Abraham the judgment he pronounced on those cites. Abraham did not live in those cites so the judgment and death sentence would not have directly affected him or his family .
I have no doubt that Jehovah was not intending to sweep away the righteous with the wicked. He is a God of justice. Yet he allowed Abraham to question his judgment and Jehovah’s responses no doubt strengthened Abraham’s faith that Jehovah is indeed a God of justice. Imagine if Abraham had come to know of Sodom’s destruction secondhand. Evidently Jehovah knew how Abraham would feel if he had chosen to do so because in verse 19 of that chapter he said he had “come to know “ Abraham and he knew by openly disclosing his judicial decision that it would serve Abraham and his household in the well in the long run .They could emulate Jehovah’s justice and righteousness. If only our brothers had Jehovah’s mind when it comes to being open in regards to judicial meetings in our congregation. What do they have to hide ?

• Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-01-29 08:54:20

  I think Meleti made some very fine points about confidentiality in his recent article. But the fact is that there are many cases in the congregation where the accused would not want a public hearing. Putting aside for the moment whether the objectives of the JC itself are scriptural or not, it seems to me that the only fair way to protect confidentiality and allow for accountability would be for the accused to decide if they would want some observers to be present.
  I can certainly see multiple downsides of literally presenting every case before the congregation.

Comment by Sargon on 2014-01-28 22:14:10

Was Jesus physical body resurrected? I believe so. Of course he was changed before going to heaven. But what evidence do we have that he was not resurrected physically? Remember, even as a physical man he had great power. For example at the transfiguration, he was still a man.

Comment by Samaritan Woman on 2014-01-30 10:05:25

I was reading the material for the book study this morning when I got to paragraph 5 which states the following:
Jehovah Has Opened the Way
5 Left on our own, we as sinners could never be close to God. (Psalm 5:4) “But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,” wrote the apostle Paul. (Romans 5:8) Yes, Jehovah arranged for Jesus “to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew20:28)Our faith in that ransom sacrifice makes it possible for us to be close to God. Since God “first loved us,” he laid the foundation for us to enter into friendship with him.—1 John 4:19.
I just couldn’t get past this paragraph and the word “reconciliation” kept popping into my head. The light bulb turned on and I had (excuse the phrase) a “come to Jesus” moment and I realized “No, we don’t enter into friendship with God, we are sons/daughter of God! “ Now I know that I may be a little late to the party on this concept considering peoples comments and some of the post, “Orphans” for one, but this really blew my mind.
The bible reading this week, when Abraham was questioning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah helped me come to this conclusion. What need for a ransom would there be if we were just to be “friends” of God? Abraham was a friend of God and a righteous man but not reconciled to Jehovah, he was still under the curse of sin and death that Adam brought upon mankind. Jehovah was just beginning to reveal his purpose by initiating a covenant and showing him the land his offspring would inherit.
Adam was a son of God and Jesus ransom was provided so that we can be reconciled to Jehovah because we are imperfect sinners. Therefore, reconciliation is based on Adam’s original relationship and will ransom will restore us to that position. This seems right on a deeper level of consciousness... like not that it "feels right" but that i finally have an understanding of what the ransom really means, and the inconceivable love that produced it.
I have been guilty of making fun of people for thinking they are going to “be with God" but that is what being a Son/daughter really, is no matter the location.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-01-30 11:01:39

  Wow! That was truly a eureka moment. Thank you so much for sharing that with us all. It's so simple and clear and it makes a mockery of this week's Bible study lesson. You're right. Abraham was already God's friend. He didn't need Jesus' ransom to achieve that. He only needed faith. What Jesus provided was a restoration of what Adam lost, which was far more than friendship. A true reconciliation with God. Abraham was never called God's son, because prior to the ransom, that was not possible. To say that Jesus died so that we could be called God's friends disparages his sacrifice and God's gift to us.

  • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-01-30 17:50:49

    I think you are being altogether too generous to say that we are encouraged to think Jesus died so that we could be called God's friends. We are often reminded that by far and away the principal purpose of Jesus' death was to vindicate God's sovereignty. Any by-products of that involving our salvation, friendship or sonship, should not be promoted as key purposes of the ransom, lest we should think too much of our place in the universe.
    Note this early example from Consolation magazine (sorry I don't know the year, but if it's Consolation it must be 30's or 40's)
    
    It's an interesting selection of scriptures to help us appreciate that we shouldn't get carried away with this idea of the ransom actually being for us.
    If the objective is for us to draw close to our heavenly Father, it's hard to see how this spin on things helps us to do that.
    Funny they didn't include John 3:16, John 15:13, Rom 5:8, Rom 7:24,25, 1 Pet 3:18, 1 John 4:10, etc, etc.

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-30 11:07:36

Samaritan Woman-That is a beautiful and comforting thought.
I feel like Simeon . Remember God told him by means of Holy spirit that he would not die before he seen the Christ? Luke 2:25-32:
[25] Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. [26] It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. [27] Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, [28] Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
[29] "Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
[30] For my eyes have seen your salvation,
[31] which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
[32] a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel."
I am so grateful that before I die I have had the privilege to see the Christ for who he really is . Even if Jehovah does not give Jesus the word to bring this system to an end in my lifetime..…God’s grace has been sufficient for me (2 Cor. 12:9) . It is especially comforting to know that Jehovah has always had us (mankind)in mind. It also makes me have a greater appreciation for Jesus’ role as a mediator of the covenant that Jehovah established with mankind.
My longing is not to go to heaven ( I don’t know if indoctrination has played a role) but I do long to have a son/daughter relationship with my Father . That means more to me now than anything else. It’s like a reuniting :) (Romans 8:35). I am going to look at Meleti’s post about adoption again. A few months ago I didn’t agree with it at all . My view is changing.

• Reply by Samaritan Woman on 2014-01-30 12:30:44

  I know what you mean GWIT, ever since i was a little person, when people asked me what i looked forward to in the New System it was never animals or the normal things people expect. It was always " I want to speak to God" and people patted me on the head and said " Oh, haha, she wants to "talk" to God isn't that cute."
  Now I have come to be proud of what people said i shouldn't.

  • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-01-30 12:45:25

    "Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God. Happy are the peaceable since they will be called sons of God." (Matt 5:8,9)

    • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-01-30 12:58:18

      Amen!

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2014-01-30 19:48:21

Just a little more on the Bible reading, although didn't actually get to say it out loud, remember there was over 300 slaves in addition to all of Abraham's household (referencing when they saved Lot and his family when captive by the kings attacking Sodom and Gomorrah, even the call for Abraham to have all men circumcised was pretty extreme considering there weren't a lot of powerful works to back up such a painful command.
I was also impressed by Abimelech's 'honest heart' as told in Genesis 20 that Abraham and Sarah feared was so wicked that they had to deceive him to the degree Jehovah closed every womb and threaten death to the nation for what Abimelech was so innocently thinking to do with Sarah. Maybe we all need a little lesson on misplaced fear?