Avoid Being “Quickly Shaken From Your Reason”! (w13 12/15)

Comment by hezekiah1 on 2014-02-04 13:05:10

Thanks Meleti. Yes the irony is immediately apparent. We are returning to the pre1975 days.
The question asked in the KM regarding if this out last memorial has caused quite a stir among young ones. Or any who don't remember 1975. It makes me so uneasy when people try to discuss this with me asking my thoughts. It seems we are bound to repeat the mistake.
I really liked the description of the man of lawlessness. While it can easily fit other Christian religions, it can easily fit us as well. Especially for those who have served and who are honest, we can see striking similarities.

• Reply by Joel on 2014-02-09 07:02:47

  The reference in the Kingdom Ministry you mentioned just shows yet again how all of this stuff works.
  I honestly hadn't really thought about 2014 being the centenary of the war until later on last year, it just didn't occur to me. It hasn't even been in the media, in contrast with say the JFK incident? Surprising then, that since 1914 is very definitely supposed to be a year of proven significance to all witnesses, there is silence on 2014. Not even an acknowledgement that I have seen.
  Yet, in this article, strategically placed words "last memorial" to produce the desired effect of appropriate awareness and anxiety, while legally providing plausible deniability, so the blame can be placed fairly and squarely on the follower. Truly, saying something, without saying anything.

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2014-02-04 15:13:39

Personally I wasn't surprised over this study article coming on the heals of our last five. I could see a number were shaken. But as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2 says not to be "quickly shaken" over news of an "imminent" happening. Hello? How were Jehovah's Witnesses built?
No worries here, but I DO worry about R&F who are not allowed to peer outside of the reasoning box given them. As for Par. 5, are we not condemning our own reasoning? Were we not shaken many times by those leading us. And if we are just now being told not to look outside the reasoning box, how about those interested, intelligent people we study with? Are we to advise them the same? On what basis? And what if their intelligent questions cannot be answered with the same intelligence we would expect had we been them asking? How are we to infuse them with the unshakable reasoning Paul advises in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2?
I would be interested in knowing how many will be bold enough to so answer par.5 this week.
sw

Comment by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-04 15:54:48

Great Scott! I did not realize that we had an article like this coming up. (Yes, I have been caught out not keeping up with the chariot, but I am only reading this material for the first time right now.)
Meleti - kudos to you for a well balanced commentary. It's certainly an article that could draw us into some emotional responses.
The reality is that Christians need to maintain their power of reason. The last two paragraphs are pitched so finely in order to separate "you" from the message of the New Testament. And paragraph 15 helps us to see that family worship should consist of preparation for our canvassing work and preparation for our meetings. And yet, in large part, preparation for our meetings is preparation for our canvassing work. But above all things, the stage was already set to exclude any kind of research or study that might fall outside of the purview of our official publications. Paragraphs 7-11 set the tone in that regard.
And all along there is the very painful irony that you drew attention to Meleti.

Comment by BeenMislead on 2014-02-04 16:41:02

“Are we to infer from this that present-day Christians do not have a limited understanding of the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose? Are we being led to believe that we now have “that which is complete”?”
---------------------------------------------------
Here is what it says in the 1992 Watchtower …
“Paul continued: “For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.” (1 Corinthians 13:9, 10)
The gifts of knowledge and prophecy were incomplete. Apparently, such prophecy did not go into detail, and each prophet was partial in disclosing the future, lacking perfect knowledge about what he foretold. Now, however, the understanding of prophecy is gradually becoming complete. For instance, facts fulfilling Bible prophecy confirm that Jesus received kingly authority over mankind in 1914. Since then, we have been in “the time of the end” and are enjoying continual growth in spiritual knowledge and understanding of Bible prophecy. (Daniel 12:4) Hence, we are coming to perfect knowledge and “that which is complete” must be at hand.” – (w92 7/15, Pg. 30, Follow the Surpassing Way of Love)

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-04 16:49:13

  Thanks, BeenMislead. I was afraid of that, but couldn't remember for sure. There is a degree of presumptuousness to our belief in our own understanding that is really quite beyond the pale.

Comment by John The Baptist on 2014-02-04 18:43:37

I'm starting to have a hard time as pioneer and servant, ever since I realized that we are not preaching the good news of the kingdom Jesus taught (in regards to us becoming children of God), and now I've also learned recently that I was not baptized in the name of the father, son, holy spirit.
So in the end, we don't go out and make disciples of Christ, but disciples of the GB. I feel disgusted down to my stomach and I don't know how to bear this burden. I am being the thing I loathe the most .. a hypocrite.
What is a person supposed to do. I stand to lose everyone I love in life.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-04 18:53:57

  There is no easy answer, I'm afraid. I'll be posting on this topic on Thursday. Perhaps as a consequence there will be some advice and guidance from others on the site who have faced or are facing a similar situation.

• Reply by on 2014-02-05 11:06:44

  My only solution to this problem is just to be a low-profile witness...

• Reply by In Need of Grace on 2014-02-05 11:51:14

  I am in the same situation my friend. I am slowly trying to help my wife come into the true understanding. I think we should all help each other on how to bring a positive message to the world. Right now I focus on starting biblestudies, and then I do them with purely the bible and research on my end. It takes a lot longer, but it's very rewarding.
  Next to that I'm thinking about ways to do the worship that is acceptable to god, namely helping widows and orphans. I feel sad that this is something I have neglected for the longest time (except within the congregation).
  We have to hope that Jehovah shows us a way out.

• Reply by Joel on 2014-02-06 06:03:54

  I don't think it would be wise for me to give you advice as such, but I hope I can say something that helps. So, I will try to be careful with what I say, since I don’t want to mislead anyone. The onus is really on each individual to evaluate, something we are taught as witnesses and then subliminally discouraged from doing. Finding a group of likeminded people sharing the conclusions you had come to yourself based on the same material is reassuring for a start!
  For what it is worth, the conclusions that you have reached independently about the good news of the kingdom and being Gods children are the same as mine.
  "now I’ve also learned recently that I was not baptized in the name of the father, son, holy spirit."
  So far I have convinced myself that my baptism was valid and not worried about this overly, although I have thought about it. Even as a teenager, I realise that I did not intentionally baptise into an organization, my intent was always to show God that I was on his side.
  "I am being the thing I loathe the most .. a hypocrite. "
  It is a helpful place to start from, do you not think? Didn't Jesus hate hypocrisy and warn us about it repeatedly? I am no shining light that is for sure, but it is my aversion to hypocrisy that prompted me eventually to start reevaluating until I reached the point of “enough is enough”.
  "What is a person supposed to do. I stand to lose everyone I love in life."
  This is the tough one and unfortunately it probably goes down the chain beyond those immediate to yourself. What I mean by that, is it could be that even if your immediate family come to terms with your views, their parents/friends might not …. And so on. Jesus did warn of this type of situation and that he came not to bring peace, but a sword. Know yourself, that you want to do what is right and it is more important than what an indoctrinated person tells you is "right". Know also that if you continue to pray for help with this you will get it. Know that it is so much more rewarding to remove the spectacles, read the bible with new eyes and start to understand that scriptures "may" actually be saying something quite different to the view you were given. Know that in all likelihood the people you are afraid of losing stand to lose as much as you do and will most likely compromise if you are firm in your convictions.
  That said, only you know your specific circumstances of course. There are some things I have had to do/voice and there are others I have not felt necessary so far. My basic defense is to keep a low profile – I do not pick fights, but I’m not afraid to answer questions. I’ve tried to be careful not to undermine the faith of others. I don’t feel it is my place to judge if it is misplaced.
  I have had the discussions with others along the lines of "we have the best version of truth" and "the best way of life" and "there is nothing better out there". Personally, I always found ministry difficult enough, but to knock on someones door and tell them I have something ..... "resembling truth” or that “it might be truth eventually” and “just ignore that stuff about serving the organization, it really is the truth” - not the best motivation in the world for me. I have no interest in starting another "sect", but nor am I interested in bringing people to a frozen river. The more I have read about the history of the organization, the more unscriptural points I have noticed in Watchtowers and publications, the more I have studied the bible again, the more convinced I have become that I am trying to do the right thing.
  I really worried about ministry at first as well, but for right now I talk to others about the bible when the opportunity comes up whether in person, or online. I tell others I am a Christian when the situation arises. If I receive a talk in the hall and it can be done without straying from the bible then I will give it and if I can share something I feel is valuable then all for the better.
  Personally, I now have no doubt whatsoever that the hectic schedule of work prescribed by the organization is not what is required of Christians, nor is it a “light” yoke.
  There are other things the future will bring no doubt, but you can try to prepare for them if you are convinced that looking for truth is worth it. Don’t forget that that is how many people became Jehovahs Witnesses in the first place! They should understand it firsthand, but many of them seem to have forgotten and at least for the moment have full trust in the organisation.
  I hope that some of this may be helpful to you.

Comment by on 2014-02-05 02:19:00

Out of the topic but if interesting to hear recent Anthony's Morris talk in Rome , here it is - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=td22FGFywv8

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-05 10:51:51

  Is this the one where he implies that if we don't visit Bethel or take our children there ever, we'll have to answer to Jehovah for it? If so, at what point in the video can we find that remark?

  • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-05 11:03:59

    It's early on, but you really would be doing yourself a disservice not to listen to the whole thing. There are plenty of other nuggets in there.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-05 11:28:51

      At the 16:20 mark. Interesting. Seems we have our own version of Mecca. But it's nice to know that the "Magic Kingdom" of Disney World is now acceptable for our kids for visit.

      • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-05 11:58:27

        Lol!!!!!! I am sorry I had to laugh @ "magic kingdom" . You are so spot on about that in context of this talk. Even in view of all that's going on and the frenzy the brothers are in at my local KH ...this talk is still very shocking to me!

      • Reply by JimmyG on 2014-02-05 17:02:59

        He also insulted the supposed Italian dress sense of wearing tight pants. He also said something like 'there are definitely some ties here that I wouldn't wear.' Also, 'Italians can be excitable sometimes'.
        There's so much more....................

    • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-02-05 15:00:06

      Yes Apollos and especially his reference to the brown-headed cowbird laying its bigger eggs in nests of other birds so when the chicks hatch the cowbird chick takes all the food leaving the rest to starve if not kicked out of the nest.
      He applies it to a parent depriving children of spiritual food and kicking them out of the next too soon. But I beg to differ. Having raised my own and watching them raise their own, the cowbird more appropriately symbolizes a religious hierarchy that falsely lays its eggs in the family nest to deprive the true spiritual food being fed to the children.
      (Ezekiel 34:2-5)
      “Woe to the shepherds of Israel, who have become feeders of themselves! Is it not the flock that the shepherds ought to feed? 3 The fat is what you eat, and with the wool you clothe your own selves. The plump animal is what you slaughter. The flock itself you do not feed. 4 The sickened ones you have not strengthened, and the ailing one you have not healed, and the broken one you have not bandaged, and the dispersed one you have not brought back, and the lost one you have not sought to find, but with harshness you have had them in subjection, even with tyranny. 5 And they were gradually scattered because of there being no shepherd, so that they became food for every wild beast of the field, and they continued to be scattered."
      sw

      • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-05 17:51:01

        That's a thought provoking alternative analogy sw1. Any attempt by the parents to remove the cowbird egg apparently results in a "scorched-nest" policy, whereby the whole family suffers. I guess one message is to fully consider what you are letting into the nest before there comes a point where it cannot be removed without repercussions.
        That having been said I am still not ready to throw out the babies with the cowbird egg. As anderestimme has recently written, there is still something good in our congregational arrangements. But it seems to depend upon the people, not upon the doctrine.
        It is an ongoing quandary to be sure. John the Baptist's recent comment emphasized that. I feel for you John. It seems that it will not be resolved easily for any of us.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-05 18:24:19

  Okay, I forced myself to listen to the whole things--I hate interpreted talks. Kind of like driving a car by stopping every 100 yards, then starting again.
  In any case, here are my initial thoughts.
  I mean on disrespect, but what kept coming to my mind as I listened to his tone and the authoritative way he told, even ordered, the brothers on what to do was "a God's voice and not a man's!"
  He was on a mission to get rid of tight pants which he finds "disgusting". At about the 42:30 minute mark, you'll hear "Those who I've counseled in America threw their pants away."
  He referred to Watchtower articles much more often than he referred to the Scriptures. He spoke often of Jehovah, but just as often of the Governing Body, even equating the two with statements like "It's not what Jehovah wants. It's not what the Governing Body wants." He assumes we would care what the Governing Body wants, and I guess a great many do.
  What hit me at the end was that I don't believe he used Jesus' name once. I may be wrong as I wasn't paying attention to that. But it was clear that while Jehovah, the Governing Body, and the Watchtower magazine were all mentioned often, our Lord and King was ignored.
  When I think of scriptures like the following, I fear that this attitude does not bode well for the direction in which we appear to be heading.
  (John 5:23) . . .Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
  (Psalm 2:12) 12 Kiss the son, that He may not become incensed. . .

  • Reply by on 2014-02-05 19:50:35

    I think that his remark about christian parents sitting their children down and say them good bye and that " Jehovah is never sentimental" is very judgmental. Is that really for real ? It seems to my that some of the Brothers in the leadership position don't really need wait for our only judge !

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-05 20:41:15

      That one sounded like the old scare tactics again. We don't motive with love, but with fear. He was completely disregarding the scripture that says the children are sanctified because of the believer. Even if there is only one believer, they are sanctified. (1 Cor. 7:14) It seems that clear teachings from the Bible can be disregarded if they conflict with what the Watchtower has to say. Truly, we have become like the Catholic Church which puts the Catechism over the Holy Scriptures.

    • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-05 22:45:54

      "Sit your children down and say good-bye. Jehovah is never sentimental."

      
      This struck me very distinctly as the voice of a stranger. Since they have been steadily shifting Jesus into the sidelines it might not be a surprise, but much of this talk convinces me that we are not hearing the words of the fine shepherd.
      John 10:3-5 "The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has got all his own out, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. A stranger they will by no means follow but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

      • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-06 00:37:42

        You are right Apollos it is certainly a stranger's voice. It is unscriptual as Meleti points out. We have come to know the Father through Jesus... Could you imagine Jesus saying such a thing?
        Our Father does not lack compassion for His sheep in any way. He is not threatening us or the lives of our children if we are not "spiritually strong" by the GB's standards.It's comforting to know that if we are lost Jesus will abandon the others to come find us!
        Jehovah says He will not forget our children even if we do!
        Is. 49:15-16, "Can a woman forget her nursing child, or lack compassion for the child of her womb? Even if these forget, yet I will not forget you."
        The measure by which they are judging and condemning others.....they will also be judged.

      • Reply by Joel on 2014-02-07 15:38:52

        If God were without sentiment how could he yearn for the work of his hands? Why would he sacrifice his own Son? Why would he wait patiently for even gross sinners to return to him? This view is completely unscriptural.
        Without sentiment, the logical thing to do is issue judgement and scrap the defective creation. God does not need people to repent in order to display perfect justice without sentiment. Yet he waits because He WANTS them to repent. Surely?

        • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-07 16:13:07

          Joel
          So true. Isn't this exactly what we've spent the last couple of weeks studying in the Draw Close book in contrast to deists who teach a necessary but detached god?
          One dictionary definition of "sentimental" - of or prompted by feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia.
          How many scriptures would we be able to list that clearly state that Jehovah God IS prompted by feelings of tenderness, that he can be made to feel sad and that he can feel regret? We are made in His image. We know these feelings because He knows them.
          Such a bold assertion as to what the feelings of God are or are not i.e. "He is NEVER sentimental", can be very directly contrasted to what He says of Himself in scripture. The more I thought about your comment, the more I realized that for someone to claim to speak FOR God in front of 1000's and on a more general basis claim to be His channel, and yet to say something so absolute, so premeditated, and yet evidently out of sorts with what He reveals about Himself in scripture, is not a minor matter by any stretch.
          Apollos

  • Reply by Nick O. on 2014-02-06 13:19:10

    The direction we are heading is apparent. Take a look at some points brought out in some older public talk outlines compared to newer ones:
    (56 - Into the New World Under Christ's Leadership)
    http://theworldnewsmedia.org/file/view/Outline056.pdf
    •Men were not created to rule or lead other men (Jer 10:23; ce 189-93)
    They do not have ability or right to do so (yp 305)
    As Christians, we have as our Leader not any human but Christ (Mt 23:10)
    •Those hungering and thirsting in a spiritual sense look to him (Isa 55:1, 2, 4; sl 95-107)
    He is OUR Leader
    •If we fully accept Christ’s leadership, we will be led into new world
    •ELDERS NEED TO FOLLOW CHRIST’S LEADERSHIP (10 min.)
    Christians are urged to have regard for elders taking spiritual lead, which involves imitating their faith (Heb 13:7)
    They are to be imitated, not because they are leaders, but because they imitate real Leader, Christ (Mt 23:10; 1Co 11:1)
    •Christ did not just give orders but set example; he was mild-tempered (Mt 11:28-30; 1Pe 5:2, 3)
    Avoid any tendency to promote personal ideas or to put on displays of self-exalting eloquence (1Co 2:1-5; 2Ti 4:2)
    When in doubt as to how to handle a congregation matter, do you seek to obtain “the mind of Christ”? (1Co 2:16; w86 12/1 10-15; w77 566-8; w76 532-3)
    •As new world draws nearer, survival will continue to involve following Christ’s leadership
    •Will we keep uppermost in mind the example of Christ? (Lu 22:42)
    (47 - Have Faith in the Good News)
    http://theworldnewsmedia.org/file/view/Outline047.pdf
    •It is easily seen from history that no man or body of men, no organization or government could be the source of any feature of the good news we need (Jer 10:23)
    •The good news that God the Creator would send would surely not lack any of the factors necessary for our complete welfare and happiness (Ro 8:31, 32; w75 702)
    Is such good news available?
    Yes, and it is not difficult for us to get (Ac 17:27; 2Pe 3:9)
    •Apostle Paul shows that we, as hearers, have good news right at hand, do not have to look exhaustively for it (Ro 10:6-10; w72 694; g68 11/22 28)
    •WHAT THE GOOD NEWS IS ABOUT (12 min.)
    Bible speaks of “the good news of God,” “the good news about the Christ,” and “the good news of the kingdom” (Ro 15:16, 19; Mt 9:35; w79 12/15 5-6; it-1 986-8)
    Acceptance of the good news results in salvation; rejection brings destruction (2Th 1:6-8)
    •Each of us can ask ourselves:
    ‘Am I anxious to learn more about the good news, get the real sense of it, apply it in my everyday life, and help others to learn about it?’ (w79 12/15 8)
    •Realize its transforming power and its ability to soften the hardest hearts and to bring unbounded joy and happiness to those gladly receiving it (Ro 1:16, 17)
    These outlines are copyrighted 1993 and 1992 respectively, but my guess is that they were older but only slightly updated in those years as many references go back to the 70s. Perhaps some here know. I hope they are not phased out. There are some very interesting statements made in them, and much of them present a very biblical viewpoint, as opposed to most newer outlines which insert cognitive bias and unjustified conclusions. There is no mention of organization (except in the negative), only congregation in these older outlines. Notice what a huge difference in language a similar but more modern talk contains:
    (144 - A Loyal Congregation Under Christ's Leadership)
    http://theworldnewsmedia.org/file/view/Outline144.pdf
    •Korah was disrespectful of Jehovah and his organizational arrangement (w00 8/1 10-11; w97 8/1 8-9)
    He spoke abusively of those taking the lead and sought glory for himself (Nu 16:1-3; Jude 11)
    Moses deeply respected Jehovah’s word and authority, was humble and patient (Ex 18:17-19a, 24)
    •Loyal ones submit to theocratic arrangement (1Co 11:3)
    Christ, as Head of Christian congregation, deserves the loyalty of all its members (Mt 23:10; Eph 5:23)
    All in association with Christian congregation must show similar loyalty to God’s arrangement (1Ti 2:8; Tit 1:8)
    “Faithful and discreet slave” cares for earthly interests of congregation and is identified by work it does (Mt 24:45-47)
    Faithful ones stick loyally to slave class, giving it full support (Mt 25:40; Ac 16:4, 5)
    •Jehovah loves humble ones like Moses, and He gives them undeserved kindness (Ro 12:3; Jas 4:6)
    Such ones do not promote themselves or become impatient (w00 8/1 12)
    Guard against speaking abusively of Jehovah’s servants and organizational arrangements
    Respond to theocratic direction quickly (Heb 13:17)
    •Be submissive to Christ, the Head of the congregation, and to the theocratic arrangement
    I haven't had a chance to go over all the outlines but these were a few major differences in teaching that are apparent. Perhaps some of the earlier outlines (I don't know if 47 & 56 were around in the 70s - perhaps some here know) had some influence from ones who approached the bible with less dogmatism?

• Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-05 21:13:21

  About 48:30-48:33 – This brother says of King David, “When he’s resurrected, you tell him I spoke fondly of him! " I guess since we will be on earth with David and this brother will be in heaven we should be sure to relay the message
  Approx. 1:04:00 –In this illustration/story Is he saying the dog is “the only one in the whole house that behaved like a Christian.” ?
  At the 35:36 mark – he tells parents that we may as well say goodbye to our children now before Armageddon if we haven't strengthened their sprituality (“Sit ‘em down and say goodbye. Jehovah is never sentimental.”)
  01:00:00 – He relates the story of a father who prays each night for his children to “never have to be dealt with by a judicial committee".(not Jehovah or Jesus)
  To think.... This brother along with seven others on the GB are deciding policy, shaping doctrine and making decisions for our lives.
  Meleti to your point ....we all know how Jehovah and Jesus feels about homosexuality This brother's language however is short of bigotry and homophobia regarding wearing tight pants. This talk was hard to listen to. Why can't we focus on love, HUMILITY, mercy, grace, forgiveness and the Christ for Pete's Sake!
  I'm sorry... He sounds so full of himself.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-06 00:50:45

    An excellent point. Here he has an audience of thousands to influence with something spiritually upbuilding, but instead he turns it into another Watchtower study on dress and grooming and service and obedience.

Comment by Katrina on 2014-02-05 02:40:25

I believe that Jehovah is revealing who the "man of lawlessness " is through the WT study articles, there are many I believe honest truth lovers in the congregations, I think this is a huge test for many of us that want to desperately teach with spirit and truth.
The scripture in Thess says that the end will not come until the man of lawlessness is revealed, (son of destruction) like Judas sat at the table and even partook of the emblems, none of the other disciples knew their was a traitor among them, Christ did, and he revealed this to them, Christ would have known well before that night who the traitor was.
Seeing this scripture is for the end times, how the WT can say its Christendom makes no sense at all, as the WT has been saying this for nearly a century.
I have a lot more I can say but will refrain for now until I get my anger way from this article.
I do not conduct studies, but if or when someone asks I usually just say this is what they teach at present and leave it at that, I don't refer to the bible but just this is what they the GB teach at present.

• Reply by Chris on 2014-02-05 03:52:21

  Someone once said to me "If you are in the 'truth' long enough the loop tape will replay itself"
  Same lies different day

• Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-05 21:10:48

  I believe that there is a connection to the "Man Of Lawlessness" to this prophecy of the prophet Daniel.
  I will quote it here for analysis.
  Daniel 11
  27 And both of them, the kings, shall have in their hearts to do evil, and they will speak lies at one table. But it will not prosper, for the end still shall be at the appointed time.
  28 And he will return to his land with great wealth. And his heart shall be against the holy covenant. And he will act, and he shall return to his land.
  29 At the appointed time he will return and come against the south. But it will not be as the former or as the latter.
  30 For the Kittim ships will come against him. And he will be pained and turn back and be furious against the holy covenant. And he will act, and he will return and heed the forsakers of the holy covenant.
  31 And forces will stand away from him, and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress. And they shall remove the regular sacrifice, and they will place the abomination that desolates.32 And he will defile by flatteries those who do evil against the covenant. But the people who know their God will be strong and will work.
  33 And those who understand among the people will instruct many, yet they will stumble by the sword and by flame, by exile and spoil for days.
  34 And when they shall stumble, they will be helped with a little help. But many will join them with hypocrisy.35 And many of those who understand shall stumble, to refine and to purge them, and to make white to the time of the end. For it is yet for the appointed time.
  36 And the king shall do according to his will. And he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god; he shall even speak marvelous things against the God of gods and shall prosper until the fury is completed. For that which is decreed shall be done.37 He shall not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women; yea, he will not come to any god. For he shall magnify himself above all.
  38 But in his place he shall honor the god of forces, and he shall honor a god whom his fathers did not know, with gold and silver and with precious stones, and desirable things.
  39 And he shall act in the strongholds of the fortresses with a foreign god, whom he shall acknowledge. He shall multiply in glory, and he shall cause them to rule over many and shall divide the land for a price. [LITV]

  • Reply by Joel on 2014-02-06 17:59:15

    Interesting - I hadn't considered Dan 11 in parallel with Thess 2, but to me, especially in v36 the similarities are quite striking. What do you think of Rev 13 in connection with both of these passages?

    • Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-09 04:14:36

      I'm late to this thread, but incredibly a brother and I have made the same connection about 2 weeks ago. We are in the process of joining all the dots together, because the similarities I believe go further. When I'm done with my essay, I'll be posting it for Meleti to peruse. But yeah, you're right the two are tied up.

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-02-05 04:03:44

John The Baptist, as I read your heartfelt comments my heart breaks for you. I understand the delima you are in. It sounds like you are having a "Crisis of Conscience", just as Raymond Franz did many years ago, and just as I have been through myself.
I believe we must each decide who we are going to be loyal to....Jehovah God or the Governing Body? We cannot serve two masters.
I have chosen to be loyal to Jehovah God, and I find that I can now earnestly pray to him directly, through his son Jesus Christ.
It is frightful to think of losing everyone you love, simply for being honest with yourself. Trust Jehovah and he will comfort you and guide you, as he has done for me and many others . There is also much support to be had from others who have been or are going though the same thought process as yourself. Always remember, you are never alone.
It will not be easy or quick. I pray you will find peace my dear brother.

Comment by Sargon on 2014-02-05 06:59:16

I believe this article is an attempt to cover the governing body and the backlash of negative media attention soon to come. It's only a matter of time before the GB is implicated in covering up child abuse. The GB knows they can no longer hide this information in the age of mass media and the internet. The only way to protect themselves is to get all the publishers to distrust even credible media reports and blindly follow the GB. If the brothers see hypocrisy in the GB then they will no longer follow them. I predict that the organization has reached its peak in the United States. They've really painted themselves into a corner with the new faithful and discreet slave teaching. How can they explain being soley guided by God's spirit, yet they cover up child abuse? A recent case in Oklahoma could eventually implicate the governing body, leading to lawsuits against them directly. The district attorney filed a motion implicating the governing body themselves in covering up abuse. This will be interesting to follow.

• Reply by Katrina on 2014-02-05 08:54:31

  Sargon I am with you.
  yes it seems that the GB are in a position where they realise that the bad publicity is taking a toll, and the internet has become a huge challenge to try and keep the past hidden.
  The donations may be dwindling and a few law suits coming up.
  What really concerned me was the Nov15th WT study article where they encourage all JW to follow the slave regardless if it may appear strange from a human standpoint...
  Makes one wonder what they have up their sleave, I know I sound paranoid but bells are ringing and I don't trust this.
  Something could be coming on the horizon that they know about.
  The only thing we cAn do is continue to put trust in Jehovah and his Son, it is all in their hands, as we see the scriptures being fullfulled before our eyes in the last days, as the MOL is being exposed.

  • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-05 11:15:23

    If they are guilty ( Jehovah and Jesus knows if they are) of the wrongdoing they are being accused of by the nations it is shameful. To attempt to hide behind the scriptures to explain their “legal” issues is disgusting. If they are willingly and knowingly trying to cover their tracks and are leading Jesus’ Sheep astray (or off a cliff) they will account for their blood ( spiritually speaking). You can’t pull the wool over all the eyes of Jesus’ sheep. We must Listen to the voice of The Shepherd and not allow the GB’s voices to drown Him out.
    The GB may have been doing this for years for all we know. People (“ apostates”, honest hearted ones, etc. ) have been crying out for years. They can’t run from exposure especially in this day and age where the internet allows the average “whistleblower” to have a loud voice.

Comment by kev on 2014-02-05 07:07:20

Theres so much i could say about this article but lets start at the theme avoid being quickly shaken from our reasoning .If we want to know how to do that why dont the brothers just read the whole of the chapter and get the sense of it .it really doesnt take that much working out to see that theressomething seriously wrong here

Comment by on 2014-02-05 07:27:38

I think this article by Perimeno (who is a Jw) about the man of lawlessness is interesting: http://perimeno.ca/God%27s_Organization.htm#Lawlessness

• Reply by Katrina on 2014-02-05 08:39:30

  Anonymous I agree, yes that is a very good article, and should be considered by scripture.

Comment by kev on 2014-02-05 10:15:43

I think THE man of lawlessness has some serious credentials verse 9 Counterfeit signs and miracles and wonders there will be no mistaking this guy but you know the mystery of this lawlessness was already evident in the first century Im on the lookout but i dont believe ive seen anyone fit all his credentials yet kev

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-05 11:02:20

  I have to agree all of the comments thus far. I couldn’t even get through the article without being angry. I am fighting discouragement. I will revisit the article at some point this week before my meeting.
  KevC I have to agree with you there. I believe the “man “ of lawlessness may not necessarily be an individual…. it may be a “group” . Given all the things that has been occurring in religions around the world in this time of the end….. I am sure that many individuals could fit that passage.
  I certainly agree that the GB or the WT organization is manifesting traits described in that scripture. They are being exposed in this day and age like never before… and they know it .

Comment by miken on 2014-02-05 11:48:28

"A recent case in Oklahoma could eventually implicate the governing body, leading to lawsuits against them directly" See:-.
http://www.mcalesternews.com/breakingnews/x409169231/DA-Jehovah-Witness-Church-concealed-molestation-crimes

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-05 20:27:25

  The Catholic Church is in the same boat. The UN ordered to surrender all information in regards to same type of abuse crimes.
  Perhaps this is how the beast will attack Babylon the Great.
  I recall recently hearing or reading to not believe media reports. They must be knowing things are coming and already in damage control mode.
  One of the news reports said that once this case is over against JW, the litigator expected there would be a next case ready in line.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-05 20:37:53

    If the attack on religion were to start in this way, and it came against Jehovah's Witnesses, we would not be able to say "well, it's just Satan's world attacking the only true religion." With public access to all court documents, the truth would come out and our laundry would not be hanging clean and dry.

    • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-05 22:16:49

      I don't understand the GB or any religion when it relates to child abuse cases.... Call the police and deal with the person judicially! Why is this so difficult??? This person broke Jehovah's law and Caesar's law There is no middle ground here. How can we be counseled regarding obeying the " superior authorities" relatively to God, when it is clear the GB/WT is not doing that?
      We are constantly reprimanded to report wrongdoing to the elders if we come to know of a matter or else we will be guilty of sharing in the wrongdoer's sins.... Is the GB exempt?
      Are we following the GB so blindly that we can't use the good sense God gave us?

    • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-07 08:08:31

      Meleti
      Like me you have probably taken an interest in some of the court documents already available. Trying to wade through a heavy case is not for the faint-hearted, but it is the only way to evaluate the raw data. I would think that there are very few JW's who would do this.
      As someone has already commented, we have received a lot of information recently priming us not to trust the media. I agree that this is no coincidence, and is a message principally preparing us for the event that these cases do become more public. All the GB has to do is refute the media stories since they will never publicly admit guilt in court - they will either try to negotiate a payment with confidentiality behind the scenes, or hold out to the bitter end. This enables them to just make this a matter of trust within the organization. No matter how evident the facts seem to be, it can always be made into a Jehovah vs Satan scenario and the brothers will have to choose on that basis.
      It's a good strategy.
      Apollos

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-07 09:20:41

        It is indeed an excellent strategy. However, I don't think it will work as well as they hope. All of this, Catholicism, Protestantism, Fundamentalism and Jehovah's Witnesses, is a field in which wheat and weeds are growing. When the harvest arrives, the sons of the kingdom will shine. (I have that on the very best of authority.) :-)

        • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-07 10:08:34

          Well, that's hardly fair to claim authority from God's Word. Just think what chaos would ensue if we all started doing that. In the interests of unity I demand that you just adhere closely to the artwork in the publications from now on.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-07 10:38:37

            Truth by pictogram. I guess there is a reason that there are no inspired drawings in the inspired "word" of God.

Comment by Katrina on 2014-02-05 21:59:01

The judgment starts with the house of God first.
1Peter 4:17 Why, the time of judgment has arrived… and it's starting with the House of God. So if it's starting with us first; how will those who don't obey the good news of God end up? 18 For, 'If the righteous are just barely being saved, where will those who are godless and the sinners make a showing?' 19 So, let those who (by God's will) are suffering, dedicate their lives to the faithful Creator by doing whatever is good.
The GB teach that God's house has already been judged, makes no sense, if so then do they rely expect Christ to turn his eyes and ears away from nearly a century of mess up, and injustices, especially as things are becoming more openly exposed in these last days, the crimes against children and the way the these crimes were handled by the policies of the GB, surely they cannot expect to get away with it, as they point the figure at all other religions.
Thing is the whole mess is all related to one date 1914.

Comment by Katrina on 2014-02-06 00:31:35

Did anyone notice in that talk by Morris he said he was going to heaven, like it was a sure thing. I thought Christ was the judge of that, doesn't one have to remain faithful till death or until Christs return to receive that honour.
Very presumptuous, they give no honour to the Son, the one that has been given "All authority" my impression was they think that they are above Christ.
Sad, but hopefully many JW will wake up and see that these men have placed themselves in the seat of Moses.

Comment by kev on 2014-02-06 04:06:33

If were talking of child abuse here .The big problem is that once you have set yourselves up as the true religion and led the brothers to believe that they are living in some sort of utopia its then difficult to admit that these things do go on especially when weve slated other religions . T he real truth is sad as it is they cant vouch for 7 million people and these things could go on in any religion or any organisation we can think of the scriptures themselves bear witness to this . The wheat and the weeds for example opressive wolves will enter among you . In a large house there are many vessels and many more . The problem is that again its been dealt with unscripturally instead of thinking that this will blaspheme gods name they should have exposed the wrongdoing just like god did himself with achan and david and others .its the way that they are dealing with they are in absolute denial ive seen it in our own congregation What a mess and how naive .

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-06 04:35:10

‘John The Baptist’ here hit the nail on the head, when
he said: “I stand to lose everyone I love in life.”
Take comfort, brother, everyone loving Jehovah for
the right reasons has faced, and come off victorious,
in this challenge of our faith and unconditional love
of truth, above even our own souls.
No matter who we love in this life, only our exclusive
loyalty to Jesus can possibly benefit them, to also get
a hold on the real life in Him.
“He that has greater affection for father or mother
than me, is not worthy of me...”
“Let us, then, go forth to Him outside the camp,
bearing the reproach He bore, for we do not have
here a city that continues...”
“Hear the world of Jehovah, you men who are
trembling at His word: ‘Your brothers that are
hating you, that are excluding you by reason
of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’
He must also appear with rejoicing on your
part, and they are the ones that will be put
to shame.’”

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-06 09:30:33

  These are excellent scriptures. Thank you, Ross. Perhaps you could furnish the references to save us looking them up in the WT-Lib.

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-02-06 08:09:14

Maybe the GB doesn't want the R&F to know about the case of the "Media Report" by NBC News about the Candace Conti trial in Fremont, California.
"In what both sides described as a momentous ruling, a jury in Oakland, Calif., has found that Jehovah’s Witnesses was partly responsible for the alleged sexual abuse of a girl by one of its members and must pay her more than $20 million." (as reported By James Eng, NBC News.
There has been a lot of media coverage on that trial. Perhaps the GB doesn't want us to believe all of that media coverage that is so readily available to any one in the World who merely knows to search for it.
I wonder if the brothers and sisters know where their contributions are going?
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/15/12225753-jehovahs-witnesses-ordered-to-pay-more-than-20-million-to-woman-who-said-she-was-sexually-abused?lite

Comment by Joel on 2014-02-06 18:10:58

Could I just pick up on this question of the "man of lawlessness" if I may?
I'm not so convinced of the symbolic quasi-person interpretation - i.e. catholic church.
To me 2 Thess 2 and Rev 13 have some similarities. Without going into a personal interpretation of the Wild Beasts described and so on, the beasts in Rev 13, do a number of the types of things that the man of lawlessness is described to do by Paul and I am now more convinced of that having read "A searcher for truths" comment on Daniel 11. Any takers?

• Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-06 18:44:35

  I agree. I have thought for some time now that these passages contain parallels. In part that's why I don't buy into the theory that some have put forward about the GB fitting the bill. From reading all of the parallel passages it just seems to be a whole lot bigger than that.

  • Reply by Vassy on 2014-02-07 04:03:42

    Apollos, could you expound upon the topic in a future post, please?

    • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-07 08:35:40

      Hi Vassy
      Ross has already done it in part. http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/04/avoid-being-quickly-shaken-from-your-reason-w13-1215/#comment-8265
      The general idea of Satan attempting to establish a future world political/religious entity in an effort to counter Christianity is the way I also see these scriptures harmonizing.
      However, my mindset parts company with Ross's at this point:
      

      "Now, let’s assume the GB are neither stupid nor ill informed; so why are they silent about what is going on in the world, and how that relates to prophecy?"

      
      The thing is that the GB has been preparing us for a counterfeit world government. They have been saying that any declaration from a human source that something good is being achieved should NOT be fallen for. So in this regard they are not "silent about what is going on in the world". Neither are they setting the stage to be complicit in a human counterfeit kingdom as implied. This is not just true of the "old guard" GB. We only just had the study article on Micah 7:7 that stressed that a declaration from Satan's system might appear to be convincing, but will only be a veneer.
      If they are setting themselves up to in some way side with that counterfeit plan in the future then they're not going about it the easy way. I just don't think there is any credibility to that claim.
      Perhaps Ross would be able to comment further on that.
      Apollos

      • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-07 09:24:09

        I think anyone claiming the GB is foretold in the scriptures is reading too much importance in the overseeing body of just 7 million people. There are billions of other humans. Jesus died for all mankind, not just a handful of us.
        That's not to say they can't resemble traits of the Pharisees or the man of lawlessness. Any of us could fall for that ourselves in our dealings with others sometimes.
        But I do think about recognizing the fruit parable. Recently the only good fruits on the tree seem those remaining from many years ago, the inherited ones only. What kind of new, good fruits have we as an organization produced recently?

      • Reply by Joel on 2014-02-07 10:14:33

        "The thing is that the GB has been preparing us for a counterfeit world government."
        I catch your reasoning based on the Micah 7:7 article, although I had to remind myself of exactly what it said. The article at that point was though, to be fair quite vague. Probably as it should be, it occupied a slightly more middle ground approach than is normal in watchtower interpretations.
        “Who will make this significant future declaration of “Peace and security”? What role will the leaders of Christendom and of other religions play? How will the leaders of various governments be involved in this proclamation? The Scriptures do not tell us. What we do know is that no matter what form the proclamation takes or how convincing it might sound, it will be only a veneer”
        I don’t mind someone saying “the scriptures do not tell us – we do not know” at all! That paragraph was not inaccurate in describing the possible unity of the political and religious components to Satan’s system and the veneer it represents, but I feel it was just talking about the cry of Peace and Security in particular and did not tie it in with the other prophecies and the bigger picture.
        To be honest, I have never seen anything in print that spoke of a world government. In the context, I don’t really see how that is possible since the 7 headed image of the beast is still definitely supposed to represent the UN? Through that interpretation, Rev 13 seems a bit disjointed to me?
        Even in recent print, the UN is still very much centre stage and definitely going to devastate false religion. I really don’t think we are being prepared to watch for these events and I believe this based on the discussions I have had with others – I am just speaking for my personal experience of course!

        • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-07 12:10:54

          I agree Joel. The GB are looking in the wrong direction. However, as Apollos noted their conclusions are not far off. The GB should be focused on the MOL not a “peace and security” cry.

  • Reply by Joel on 2014-02-07 10:11:32

    "In part that’s why I don’t buy into the theory that some have put forward about the GB fitting the bill. "
    No, I think that idea is really without any basis.

• Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-06 19:58:18

  To Joel, yes there is a direct relation from Daniel's prophecy to this particular chapter, especially in verse 11 of Revelation chapter 13.
  But I believe that prophecies when made at any time are probabilities of future events and so when these prophecies are given, whether through dreams or visions or even by word by the angelic entities, this is what they can predict at that stage or time in history.
  But because of the collective human free will, it is extremely difficult to predict events 100% in accuracy because once the prophecy is actually out there for public consumption then because of the human freewill, in thought and action, it can change somewhat the actual outcome of the original prophecy.
  For instance we have the example of Jonah prophesying against Nineveh and an opposite result that did occur because they all repented.
  Jonah 1
  1 ¶ And the Word of Jehovah was to Jonah, the son of Amittai, saying,
  2 Rise up, go to Nineveh, the great city, and cry out against it; for their evil has come up before Me. [LITV]
  5 ¶ And the men of Nineveh believed in God, and they called a fast and put on sackclothes, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
  6 And the word touched even to the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he took his robe from him and covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes.
  7 And he cried and said in Nineveh by the decree of the king and of his great ones, saying, Do not let man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them feed nor let them drink water.
  8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. And let them call with strength to God. And let them each one turn from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their palms.
  9 Who knows? He may turn, and God may have pity and turn away from the glow of His anger, that we do not perish.
  10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way. And God was compassionate over the evil that He had spoken to do to them, and He did not do it. [LITV]
  So their actions because of their collective freewill actually changed the course of future events that would have come on that city of Nineveh.
  We do need to understand that when prophecy is given to us by angelic beings, it is to warn us of certain events in the future, so that we will act on this warning and change the course of the outcome for ourselves individually as well as if possible collectively as either a nation or a race (as in the human race).
  But it is also designed to give us hope and to progress our thinking in a spiritual sense.
  Isaiah's prophecy were especially designed to give us hope for the future and to progress our spirituality.
  This is from my own perspective, in any-case.

  • Reply by Joel on 2014-02-07 11:47:57

    I think to some extent you are probably right.
    To be honest, I do not personally think that (in general) human behaviour is all that complex. Usually people do exactly what you expect them to do and that is just from a human perspective not from the vantage point of the spirit realm. God knows the number of hairs on our head and notices every organism on this planet. For all we know, time could also be a malleable something which we physical creations exist within. I’m quite sure that God can look at and evaluate time and likely outcomes in the way we might fast forward a film or a computer simulation. To predict his creations behaviour and future state does not seem to present a problem at all, otherwise detailed prophecy would be quite impossible. Of course it is the details that are often what make it fascinating and separate it from mere “predictions”.
    However, I think that outright prediction is not always exercised and God will purposefully intervene, such as in the case of Nineveh that you mentioned if lives can be saved. I’m convinced that many prophecies are somewhat coded for a variety of reasons, but one of them is no doubt that only those who are right hearted will want to understand them. In some cases, it could perhaps change the overall outcome if the characters in prophecy heed the warnings. I suppose anything is possible?
    I’m sure for example from the wording and turns of phrase, that when Jesus gave the parable of the faithful and wicked slaves, he both hoped that all of the slaves would remain faithful and yet knew that would not be the case.

Comment by Katrina on 2014-02-06 20:07:08

2Thes2: 1 However, brothers; regarding the appearance of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One and our being gathered to him… we urge you 2 not to quickly lose hope, or to be disturbed by [something from the] spirit, or by words, or [by things] in a letter that may have come through us, indicating that the Lord’s Day has arrived. 3 Don’t allow anyone to mislead you in any way; because, [that day] won’t come until after there has been a great turning away and a revealing of the lawless man… the son of destruction. 4 For, he opposes and puts himself higher than all others that are called gods or things of worship, and he seats himself in the Holy Place (gr. Naos) of The God where he publicly displays himself as being a god.
5 Don’t you remember that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you?
6 So, now you know what’s holding everything up… his being revealed in his appointed time. 7 Indeed, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; for, this is the one who is holding everything back until he's no longer in our midst. 8 But when the Lord Jesus arrives and the lawless one is revealed, he'll do away with him by the breath from his mouth and bring him to nothing.
9 This one comes through the works of the Opposer with great powers, lying signs, false wonders, 10 and every sort of deceit of the unrighteous… they are those who will perish for not loving the truth that they received, which would have saved them!
Here in the scripture about the MOL, is in their midst, reminds me of Ezekiel 13:9 And my hand has come to be against the false prophets that are visioning untruth and that are divining a lie. In the INTIMATE GROUP OF MY PEOPLE they will not continue on, and in the register of the house of Israel they will not be written and to the soil of Israel they will not come, and you people will have to know that I am the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.
Also the MOL is referred to as the son of destruction (v3) Judas is said also to be the son of destruction.
in (v 10,11) clearly show that they did not accept the love of the truth, so they had the truth, but took pleasure in a lie, so God let an operation of error go to them, because they did not believe the truth.
This is not talking about wordily ones or governments, but Gods own people that like Judas betrayed Christ.
the apostasy has to come from Gods people, no where else, no one can be an apostate to God unless they part of his people.
This will be a mystery to Gods people, as they are fooled by the Devil into believing that this MOL sits down in the temple of The God, that is among Gods people, this is why Paul said in (v3) let no one seduce YOU!
Could this operation of error be 1914 the false presence of Christ?
some views.

• Reply by Joel on 2014-02-09 10:20:03

  "Also the MOL is referred to as the son of destruction (v3) Judas is said also to be the son of destruction."
  I read your thoughts with interest. I want to see if I understand you correctly. I have read of attaching this significance to Judas being labelled "son of perdition/destruction" before, but I wonder if it is not meant in a more figurative capacity rather than a composite body, or if there is a themed figurative MoL AND a fulfillment MoL? For me there are too many parts missing for Judas to mirror or match the MoL. For example, I believe you are saying that the MoL will come from within the ranks of Gods people? Well, yes, Judas did, he was one of Jesus closest companions and had a seat at the table.
  "the apostasy has to come from Gods people, no where else, no one can be an apostate to God unless they part of his people"
  I try to keep my mind open on this one. The question for me, is who are Gods people? I am coming to believe that trying to look around at all Christian faiths out there I can only conclude that there is no "one" true people. I can reconcile this easily, because of a number of things Jesus said and also some things he did not say. For example, he did not say a centre of true worship would be re-established in the signs of the Last Days. He did say to "let alone" people who did powerful works in his name, even though they were not in his company.
  If we then draw on the parallels with Dan 11 and Rev 13, the MoL seems to come out of Satans system directly, in particular either a political entity or a figurehead. I'm still not sure if it will be an individual or a power. The events described seem to be so spectacular, and Paul does indicate this man will be "revealed".
  "This will be a mystery to Gods people, as they are fooled by the Devil into believing that this MOL sits down in the temple of The God, that is among Gods people, this is why Paul said in (v3) let no one seduce YOU! Could this operation of error be 1914 the false presence of Christ?"
  If the MoL issues forth from Satans system how can he come from within Gods people and sit on the throne of God in the temple? I think (perhaps) there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. When I read this passage, what it says to me for a certainty is not to be mislead by false reasoning that the Christ has already come. In that sense, I do not see this part so much as a prophecy about the MoL. Take the subject of 1914 - I don't believe in the calculations to 1914 anymore, but it is not the only calculation out there. Before 1914 it was 1874 and before that William Miller thought it was 1844 and so on. A lot of no doubt good people have lived and died unknowingly succumbing to the very thing that Paul warned against. Every generation wants to be the one that see's the end. We are impatient - we want it now!
  However, when Paul talks of those who follow the MoL, he says
  "10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
  To me this is saying (and this is just conjecture), that those who follow the lie condemn themselves because they want to follow the lie. The lie they receive from the MoL is appealing to people. Perhaps it is related to the original lies? Perhaps it is "you will not die", or "you have knowledge of good and bad" a message of universal freedom? The people who listen do not love truth and to the contrary take pleasure in the unrighteousness, perhaps feeling they have a renewed license? They both allow themselves to be deceived AND deceive themselves simultaneously. A water tight deceit.
  Jesus said his sheep would know his voice, they will not recognise this impostor and they should not fall for this deceit, because it will not appeal to those who love righteousness.
  Thoughts?

Comment by Katrina on 2014-02-06 20:10:16

This will be a mystery to Gods people, as they are fooled by the Devil into believing that this MOL sits down in the temple of The God, that is among Gods people, this is why Paul said in (v3) let no one seduce YOU!
_________
sorry should say will be fooled by the Devil not believing that this MOL is not in the temple of the God.

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-06 20:53:26

This subject keeps resurfacing over the last few weeks :)
I don’t have a set position. In my mind however it is hard to argue that this can be one man or organization.
Paul states it was a "secret" in his day. However, he also says that the traits of the MOL were “ already at work” in the first century……
2 Thess 2:7 “For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.”
Correct me….but in my mind the sequence goes something like this according to 2 Thess 2…
1. The apostasy or “falling away”
2. The MOL is revealed
3. The MOL is overthrown
4. Jesus returns
5. The MOL is destroyed

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-06 22:32:43

Sorry for not giving Scripture locations, Meleti,
because I tend to quote, conflate and allude to
Scripture in a rather carefree way, as if everybody
were already plugged into my mind, lol -
bad habit, that.
Anyone not familiar with quotes, please just
type a few words in the Search window of
Adobe in the NWT, and it will give you
the exact location of the Scripture.
Anyhow, thanks for this great site with forum,
and all your excellent, even-handed input;
you seem to be in a period of transition here
like the brothers in the first century were, with
the ‘city that will not continue,’ being ‘made
obsolete and growing old [and] near to vanishing
away.’
I like the point Kev makes, about God always
washing His dirty linen out in the open, for
warning, correction and educational purposes,
despite the shame attaching,
as He did with David and others - this makes it
obvious that the GB does not really know the God
they worship and claim to represent.
There is a precedent for God almost committing
disgraceful folly against a group of venerable and
well meaning people,
treating Him with partiality by seeking to defend
His reputation and righteousness through obscuring
and covering up the truth about inconvenient realities
(Job 2:3c) in relation to God.
Makes one wonder if there will be anybody left to
intercede for them to dissuade Him from going
through with His intention this time.
(Job 1:8; 13:7-10; 42:7,8)

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-07 01:37:30

There are a few clues about the man of lawlessness
[MoL] implicit in Scriptures, other than the ones
we are used to look at.
The temple of ‘the God’ would normally be the
Body of Christ,
but there are several reasons why Paul seems to
have another ‘temple’ in mind here.
For one thing, the MoL will sit down PUBLICLY
in whatever the temple will be, but the world
public knows nothing about the Body of Christ.
Daniel 11 calls the MoL the king of the north;
so there will be a religio-political absolutist
dictatorship ruling the world at that time.
Paul tells us that this ‘temple’ will be on hand
AFTER the future, global apostasy from Christianity,
which Jesus referred to, when He said that we
would be objects of hatred by all the nations
on account of His Name, at that time.
What with over 2 billion Christians making up the
developed world, who is going to wipe out
Christianity by force?
The Soviets tried to ban it, with but little success.
Satan’s trick will be, not to suppress, but to replace
Christianity with his new form of ‘inclusive’ world
religion.
Therefore, if after some global cataclysm a new
world order would arise to save mankind from total
destruction,
something charismatic enough to imitate the
kingdom of God, and thus present itself as the
fulfillment and end of Christianity,
only a handful of fundamentalists, and a scattered
few, true believers, would be found who did not
apostatize from Christ and accept the mark of
initiation into the NWO.
Upon them there would then be great tribulation as
has never been before, conducted by the masses
of those having saved their skin, for the time being,
by renouncing their Christian profession and accepting
the mark of the beast,
only to face the wrath of the Lamb at the battle of
Armageddon later on.
The ‘temple of the God’ would therefore be
Christianity, as conquered and replaced, or
fulfilled, by the new cosmic cult,
the disgusting thing standing in a [Gr. ‘a,’ generic,
non-specific] holy place, just as prefigured by
apostate Jerusalem in 70 CE.
What is significant here is that according to the WT,
the next thing to arrive on the world scene is the
incoming kingdom of God,
which is about to replace the present, wicked system
of things, in order to take full control of the whole
world,
just as they preach and prepare the entire inhabited
earth for its arrival, and having done so proudly for
over a hundred years.
The only problem being, that according to Scripture,
the next entity to be given authority over every nation
on earth is Satan’s NWO beast, NOT the kingdom
of God. Re.13:2-8
So, the operation of error would be the lie that the
incoming new world administration is actually
the promised kingdom of God.
Now, let’s assume the GB are neither stupid nor ill
informed;
so why are they silent about what is going on
in the world, and how that relates to prophecy?
What assurances have they been given by the incoming
world administration, in exchange for their cooperation
with its aims and programs?
Could this, perhaps, explain the certainty they have
that the overflowing flash flood, IN CASE it should
pass through, will not come near, or reach as far as
us?
And that the elders will at that time be given instructions
that, from a human standpoint, seem illogical, and will
require absolute faith in the organization?
We know that the s.y.n.a.g.o.g.u.e of Satan will be a
part of the MoL’s incoming new world administration,
and that the elites of all ‘superior authorities’ submissive
religions will likewise be given a seat in the ‘temple
of the God,’
and just as Jesus had to face the offer of ruling the whole
world at an instant, so too the Members of the Body will
be given this same opportunity at the hour of test,
which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put
a test upon those dwelling on the earth.
Just thinking out loud here.

• Reply by Joel on 2014-02-07 11:53:04

  I want to reply to you a little more later, but I agree with a lot of what you have said. I can't help feeling that in the grand scheme of things the stage for the events described are still in the germination stage, with little experiments having been carried out here and there - like research. There is going to be a final attempt to unify mankind, a final grab for power and a final war. There are a lot of pieces coming together over time, but when all of the technology, all of the attitudes will be exactly right for this broth is hard to say.

• Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-08 07:38:14

  Ross, I do agree with some of what you say here, but what really is true Christianity?
  Is it simply those persons who believes one hundred percent as to what the bible says, particularly what is contained within the New Testament, or is it those who have the attitude of the Christ as in putting on the Christ, and following in his footsteps closely and his teachings of the "Kingdom of God" as was written down in the four gospels and elaborated on in the other New Testament writings (Greek scriptures)?
  Jesus essential teachings was that of the "Kingdom of God" and how we all should think and act and behave in relation to these teachings and how we can become an essential member of the "Kingdom of God" as one of God's sons and daughters here on earth right now at this very moment in time.
  It is because we are members of the "Kingdom of God" and our faith in the heavenly Father and his Son Jesus, that some in the world will hate us, but also those who are members of the "Kingdom of God" will be like a shining light in a time period when darkness has once again darken the spirituality of men and women who live in this time period and they will be attracted to this light as it will be the only shining light shining brightly here on this planet.
  What you are saying about the "New World Order" may take place for a short while, but this will not extinguish the light of those who truly do belong to the "Kingdom of God" here on earth.
  I am not just talking about just the 144,000 chosen ones here, but all those who truly prove to be members of "God's Kingdom".
  This scripture in Daniel chapter 12 is very thought provoking in this regards.
  3 And those who act wisely shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and those turning many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. [LITV]
  As for the mark of the wild beast, do we really have a proper understanding of this?
  I do have my own view on this, but it does not exactly co-inside with what many Christians do believe as to this.
  My view is perhaps more related to own own nature as a human being and related to our own spirituality that resides within us.
  I do not believe in creation as many Christians believe but is more in line with an evolving process by design, and not that of the Darwinian model, but where life has been seeded on this planet that is designed to adapt and reproduce according to the adaptation process with a little genetic tweaking here and there by advanced beings whether material or Angelic.
  The evidence that exist today does bear this up.
  Anyway what I am trying to say is that originally men were basically primitive and beast-like in nature but as time went on progressed more as in a spiritual sense and as to their civilizations.
  Unfortunately many of these civilizations are controlled by a few people who have a beast-like mentality and so we can have a whole political organization or empires who control them, that is why they are symbolized by beasts and behave collectively as beasts in their characteristics.
  Basically this control is through beast-like entities such as identified today by many of the political and commercial and secular corporations and religious institutions that people are part of with not really much choice in the matter, except for some countries where religion is a choice.
  But having a mark of the beast does not mean simply that you are part of the system in it's functions, just as a slave is not guilty of how his master crookedly runs his business affairs unless he is in his heart in full support of what his master does and participates in wrongdoing in order to do his master's will.
  But when it comes to matters of conscience then a person will choose to be as a member of the "Kingdom of God" rather than as a member of a beast-like collective entity.
  This person even though he is more or less forced as a slave to this entity, would not in his heart and by his actions be in support of it.
  So what actually gives us the mark of the beast is that we are in support of this beast-like collective entity, both by our attitude and actions.
  The more we are influenced by the Spirit of God, the less likely we will manifest the traits of a beast as identified with the collective beast-like entities of this world such as the seven headed wild beast and the two horned wild beast as described in the book of Revelation.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-08 14:38:38

    >>I do not believe in creation as many Christians believe but is more in line with an evolving process by design, and not that of the Darwinian model, but where life has been seeded on this planet that is designed to adapt and reproduce according to the adaptation process with a little genetic tweaking here and there by advanced beings whether material or Angelic.
    We don't discourage speculation and person opinion, especially when appropriately labeled as such. However, in this case, we have the testimony of eye-witnesses who were around for the creation process, so we would not want to be contradicting them.

    • Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-08 19:00:14

      This scripture here should be particularly thought provoking for all who read it as to the Creation account.
      Genesis 1
      26 ¶ And God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. [LITV]
      The word that I'm pointing to especially in this verse is the plural word of "us".
      And yet we have another verse that renders the plural word of "Us".
      Genesis 3
      22 ¶ And Jehovah God said, Behold! The man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and also take from the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever, [LITV]
      Tell me, who is the "us" that is spoken of here in these two verses?
      It is my opinion that the Genesis account was not meant to be a science lesson that is for sure, as to how it was done. But is written from the perspective of primitive human beings with limited knowledge.
      Originally various ancient texts would have being accessed by the Jewish Scribes (who had an ideology) to write this account and it is obvious to scholars that the Genesis account is written from at least two different accounts.
      As to the eye witness accounts that you are referring to.
      The angelic eye-witnesses?
      The "Watchers"?
      The "Unseen ones"?
      They are the only ones who were around back then who are still alive, including the "original Serpent" as mentioned in the Bible and who we today refer to as the "Devil" and "Satan".
      Would it not be good to speak with one of these magnificent beings and ask them to relate to us today as to what went on in the Creation of God?

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-08 19:24:58

        The eye-witnesses would be Jehovah God and the Word. John makes this clear in the opening chapter of this gospel. There you have the "us". We also have a precise geneology to trace both the lineage of man and the length of time he has been around. It would be one thing to speculate about a "little genetic tweaking here and there by advanced beings whether material or Angelic" if we did not have God's own word to tell us what really happened. I don't know who you are referring to by the "Watchers" and the "Unseen ones". As for the chance to talk with the angelic sons of God that cheered and praised God at the creation of man, to learn the details of what happened, well...we'll just have to be patient.

        • Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-08 20:39:05

          Okay, so do we actually have God's living "Word" as in reference to Jesus having made a statement about the creation as rendered in the Genesis account as written down by Jesus disciples for us to read today?
          Yes we do have Jesus speaking about the creation of human beings as in the Jewish concept of them, and they were real beings here on the earth, though they originally were not known by those names.
          Here is a passage of what Jesus spoke of in relation to them.
          Matthew 19
          3 ¶ And the Pharisees came near to Him, tempting Him, and saying to Him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every reason?
          4 But answering, He said to them, Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning "created them male and female"? Gen. 1:27
          5 And He said, "For this reason a man shall leave father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." Gen. 2:24
          6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let not man separate. [LITV]
          No reference at all to Adam and Eve here, but he was speaking about the creation of humans here in a general sense that they were created as male and female.
          Again in the book of Mark 10, this is what he is said to have stated:
          6 But from the beginning of creation "God made them male and female." Gen. 1:27
          7 "Because of this, a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife,
          8 and the two shall be one flesh;" so that they no longer are two, but one flesh. Gen. 2:24 [LITV]
          Of course we do have links to other passages that provide a link to Adam and Eve as in this statement that Jesus had made.
          Matthew 23
          35 so that should come on you all the righteous blood poured out on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berechiah whom you murdered between the Holy Place and the altar. [LITV]
          Again I doubt that his real name was Abel as rendered here in the English language, but from this statement Jesus referred to him as a real person, so this does provide us a reference point to work from.
          None of this actually proves that these two human beings as we name them today as Adam and Eve, that were the only originators of the human race, but it would seem that all humans today do have the DNA of two original human beings and this could be traced back to an Adam and Eve, but even then this does not at all prove that there were no human inhabitants before them.
          For instance in this Biblical account it states that Cain fled to the land of Nod.
          But hang on for a minute, how can he have fled to the land of Nod and have people chase after him to kill him if there were no other human inhabitants to chase after him? Would his own Father and mother chase after him to kill him, I doubt that.
          There must have being ones around who were related to the Abel human entity that would have enough hate for Cain to want him dead.
          The Genesis account does not speak of these humans.
          Indeed why would there be a name rendered to this place if no inhabitants did live there?
          In the Bible the "Land" is indicative of it actually being inhabited.
          Genesis 4
          13 ¶ And Cain said to Jehovah, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
          14 Behold! You have driven me out from the face of the earth today. And I shall be hidden from Your face. And I shall be a vagabond and a fugitive on the earth. And it will be that anyone who finds me shall kill me.
          15 And Jehovah said to him, If anyone kills Cain, he shall be avenged sevenfold. And Jehovah set a mark on Cain, so that anyone who found him should not kill him.
          16 ¶ And Cain went out from the presence of Jehovah. And he lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. [LITV]
          Here is a reference to the land of "Nod".
          Is this a name given after the fact, or were there actually residents living there at this time where the Cain entity could seek refuge from those that had enough hate to chase after him to revenge Abel's death?

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-08 23:59:02

            >>though they originally were not known by those names.
            What proof do you have of this?
            >>No reference at all to Adam and Eve here, but he was speaking about the creation of humans here in a general sense that they were created as male and female.
            Of course there is a reference here to Adam and Eve. "Have you not read...?" His audience had indeed read about Adam and Eve. You yourself quote Gen. 1:27 which says God created them male and female and the only humans named in that account which Jesus listeners had read were Adam and Eve. As you mention, there are also other passage that link Adam and Eve to these statements so I fail so to see your point.
            >>Again I doubt that his real name was Abel as rendered here in the English language
            Why would you doubt that? Do you have a reason for believing his name was other than what we translate as Abel?
            As for Cain fleeing to a land of people, remember that after she gave birth to Seth, Eve said that Jehovah had "appointed for me another offspring in place of Abel, because Cain killed him." (Gen. 4:25)
            Adam was 130 years of age when Seth was born. Cain was his first born. It is likely then that both Cain and Abel were over 100 years of age when the murder took place. If Eve had been giving birth for 130 years, then even producing a child every two years would mean 60+ children. By the age of 16 or so, her children would have started reproducing. Your talking about six generations growing exponentially. A quick calculation gives a potential population of 20,000 by the time Seth was born. There is no reason to conclude that there were humans alive before Adam and Eve.
            However, if you wish to believe this, it is your right. But this forum is for those who accept the inspired word of God, and that leaves no room for your theory because Jehovah explicitly tells us how the creation of humans started: With Adam and Eve only, fully formed and complete, requiring no evolutionary development.

Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-08 01:08:22

I finally read the study article this week. The GB seems extremely paranoid. I can't find one positive or encouraging thought in this article. This whole WT study has an Us Vs. Them theme.
They are calling the media liars, making references to hoaxes,scams and deception without any examples.... The tone of the WT is a huge paranoid rant. Why are they getting the brothers and sisters all riled up?
*Not only do we have to shun "apostates" but if someone is "veering " towards apostasy( critical conversations or engaging in "speculation ")we should cut them off. Beware of those "drifting"away.
*If we study the WT's (not the Bible ) and practice presentations out in field service we will protect our families against apostasy
*Do they intend to recycle "apostate " pictures /illustrations to send subliminal messages? That picture on page 8 is the exact same picture from the July 2011 WT. In that WT the subheading was " How may some invite Apostates in their homes".....apparently by watching the news . My child won't be commenting on the picture this week.
*We are under attack !Close your social network accounts, stop emailing or blogging or constantly checking the sport scores.
*I find the question to paragraph 17 odd. I know we are going to get pledges of allegiance to the GB in the comments based on the scripture that was chosen.

Comment by kev on 2014-02-08 09:53:22

Im not being funny here but they way they bark on about dress and grooming . Can you imagine the state of john the baptist living out in the wilderness or even jesus after 40 days there .Why do they have to go to extremes all the time it only takes a bit of common sense to get it right .Why are they so image conscious when the bible says its the person on the inside that matters kev

• Reply by kev on 2014-02-08 10:39:08

  Sorry that comment was meant for the love kindness article kev

  • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-08 13:52:52

    If you post it there I will remove these if you like.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-08 21:08:29

Meleti, Apollos and all,
sorry to derail the thread somewhat with my condensed
comment about the ‘MoL,’ [man of lawlessness] ,
which I would like to discuss some more with you, and
get the Holy Spirit to update us on - seeing we are gathered
here in Christ's Name - perhaps on it’s own thread, either a
new one, or if you can refer me to an existing one,
since there is a lot of relevant material to consider, which
cannot be compacted too much without losing people in
the conclusions drawn due to the lack of details provided.
On a different note, if I may just make a comment on the
idea, presented by 'A searcher for truth,’ that once an end
time prophecy is out in the open, people may change the
result predicted, due to a change of mind and action on
their part,
I would say, theoretically yes, but in reality this has already
been factored in from the start by the One giving the prophecy,
as can be seen in the case of Jonah preaching against Nineveh.
The real reason Jonah ran away from his job was not because
he was worried about what the Assyrians might do to him,
due to his announcing their doom,
for he cared little about his own life and safety, peacefully
sleeping in the bowels of a ship about to be torn asunder
by a most violent storm,
but precisely because he knew his God would not sent him
on a preaching tour to a foreign nation if he really wanted
to destroy the inhabitants of its capital,
and was simply furious with Him for wanting to squander
His mercy on those horrible pagans, instead of bestowing
it on His own people who were in desperate need of
repentance and forgiveness at that very moment. Jonah 4:2
That is not to say that Satan may not make it appear that
God’s judgment has been softened by the coming world
conversion to the multicultural, tree hugging brotherhood
of politically corrected mankind,
when the multi-nationals and trillionaires may cancel
all debt, and return all the bilked loot to the masses, in
return for their acceptance of them as the chosen people,
destined to save mankind from their own greed and folly.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 00:03:11

  Hi Ross,
  Apollos and I are working to set up a discussion section to the forum. I'm hoping we can have that up and running before month's end, but since we've never done it before, I'm not sure what obstacles we'll run into. Once it is in place, it will be an ideal place for the type of discussion you're seeking.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-08 21:24:14

Oh my, I just figured out what the ‘REPLY’ function under
each post is all about, and how it influences the chronology
of the posts, and causes them to thin out and form their own
sequence – what a REVELATION to a tech-luddite like me, lol!

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-09 04:28:10

To Meleti, yes the ones that are referred to in the Bible as Adam and Eve, were fully formed humans as they were created this way by the advanced beings.
But from information I have available they were put in the garden of Eden to progress the human race that already were in existence both physically and culturally and spiritually.
As for the names of Adam and Eve, this was the names given to these ones by the Jewish Scribes I do believe to render them as the originators of all mankind, but in reality they were the genetic up-lifters of the human race that were already in existence at that time period.
Not them personally as that was not their specific purpose, but there offspring were to genetically uplift the primitive human race at a time when God was ready for this to happen, but because of the rebellion that took place in heaven prior to that time period, the Devil who at that time was in charge of the Earth decided that he would jump the gun, so to speak and move ahead of God's purpose in progressing the human race and so also misled Eve too to jump ahead of God's purpose as well.
How that happened is a long story however but it is suffice to say that all the problems that we have to say is the result of that default in the Garden of Eden.
I do believe that God's word is contained within the pages of the Bible, but not that the entire Bible is God's Word. I believe that the only true reference to God's "Word" is in reference to his Son, Jesus Christ.
Only he truly is God's living Word, when in the flesh here on the earth and in his glorified position as King in Heaven .
Yes the Jewish nation considered the Old Testament texts as "sacred texts" or scrolls and yes Jesus did himself a number of times referred to various writings that he considered appropriate in teaching the people and considered them relevant for times, as for example the words of a couple of prophets that he used prophecies from pertaining to his own role and the destruction of Jerusalem.
But most of Jesus teachings were an extension to what the Jewish people understood in what they considered to be God's inspired word as in the Old Testament writings and indeed they were indignant at what he was teaching and even his own disciples were stumbled at one time.
Yes Jesus had revealed a God to them that was not what they were use to under the writings of the Old testament texts.
He revealed to them a loving God, and a merciful one who was all to willing to forgive us if we repent of our sins, even forgiving us in advanced as with Jesus parable of the prodigal son.
Anyway I could go on and on, but what I have written is suffice for you to know what my thought is in this matter of God's inspired word.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 09:48:21

  To"A searcher for truth": Please understand that I say this with the greatest respect.
  As stated in the "About This Forum" page, "The purpose of this discussion area is to provide a forum for honest-hearted Jehovah’s Witnesses who wish to deepen their understanding of Scripture through the interchange of thoughts, findings and research with other like-minded brothers and sisters around the world." Therefore to discredit the Bible by saying "I do believe that God’s word is contained within the pages of the Bible, but not that the entire Bible is God’s Word." is to undermine the basis for all discussion on this forum. If you have incontrovertible proof of what you say, then present it. However, this is merely an opinion--which you have a right to, of course--but this is not the place to express it.
  Additionally, you make many statements for an alternative story of creation, even involving aliens or extraterrestrials in the equation, but you provide no evidence to support your theories. Under "Commenting Etiquette" we state:
  1. Lay a solid foundation of truth using the Scriptural record to support every facet of your argument.
  What you say contradicts the Scriptural record and contradicts what God plainly states in it. Again, you have a right to your opinion but this forum is not the place for it, as our interest here is to deepen our understanding of Scripture and we consider all Scripture to be inspired and therefore beyond contestation. It is for this reason that we do not allow evolutionary debates on this forum. They have their place and we are not afraid to engage in them, but our purpose here is to 'strive for unbiased Bible research'. Dissing the Bible does not contribute to that goal.
  If you wish to continue to comment in this forum, I would respectfully ask you to stay within these guidelines.

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-09 04:59:18

To Meleti, just to go on in relation to your statement about Seth, that is indeed an interesting statement that you have made there about Adam and Eve having many children before Seth came on to the scene and that would then make sense if his other brothers and their children chased after him in revenge for killing Abel.
But the Biblical account does not render it this way.
No it does makes it appear that Adam and Even only had Abel and Cain up and until that time and so because of their heartbreak they went on to have Seth to replace Abel, the son they had lost as well as losing Cain as he had been exiled from them.
Genesis 4
25 ¶ And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son. And she called his name, Seth, for God has appointed to me another seed in place of Abel because Cain killed him.
26 And a son was also born to Seth, and he called his name, Enos. Then it was begun to call on the name of Jehovah. [LITV]
However I believe that you maybe thinking of this next scripture to prove your point here.
Genesis 5
3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years and fathered a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and called his name Seth. [LITV]
But in this next scripture, it does appear that he only fathered sons and daughters after Seth had been born, not before.
Genesis 5
4 And the days of Adam after he fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters. [LITV]
But then again I do suppose it is a matter of how one does interpret this scripture.
But from my perspective what he was saying was that in the next 800 years after Seth was born Adam had fathered many more sons and daughters and not before that.
This as from the Genesis account in any-case as I do believe that the real truth is indeed somewhat different to the Genesis account.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 10:10:08

  >>But the Biblical account does not render it this way.
  On the contrary, the Bible account leaves no room for another conclusion if we are willing to accept the Bible account as true. If we are not willing to do that, then we have no right to cherry pick which parts we accept as true and which as false. So let us accept it, because that's what we are here for, and see where it leads us.
  Did Adam become father to sons and daughters only after the birth of Seth? That would mean that for a hundred years Eve, a woman created directly by God and therefore a perfect creation, continued barren. Alternately, we would have to believe that Adam and Eve successfully practiced some form of primitive birth control for over a century. Either conclusion is mind-boggling to the point of absurdity. Besides, why would they do this. They wanted and needed offspring. Imagine, you and your wife are the only two humans in existence. She is young and beautiful and you love her as your own flesh. Additionally, both of you are fully functional, having just driven off the showroom floor. And you only have two kids for the first 130 years of your lives? This is believable. Some things are so obvious they don't have to be stated, n'est-ce pas?
  So why would Eve say that Jehovah appointed a son for her to replace Abel if she was already the mother of dozens of sons and daughters? Well, we have to consider that she'd never lost a son to death before. Abel's murder was the first of human history. So naturally she would be feeling the loss of a son for the very first time in her life.
  You see, if we deny the procreation of children other than Cain, Abel and Seth until after Seth's birth, we have no way to explain the events of Genesis. Why go outside the inspired record and imagine things that contradict it, when a simple explanation exists which is consistent with everything that is stated in the Bible? It's Occam's razor.
  To do as you wish, you have to discredit part of the inspired word of God, as you do with this statement: "This as from the Genesis account in any-case as I do believe that the real truth is indeed somewhat different to the Genesis account."
  In this forum, we live by this code: "Let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar..." (Romans 3:4)

Comment by imjustasking on 2014-02-09 05:20:42

Ross, I don't know if you saw my earlier reply (it was way back in the earlier comments). Any case a brother and I have been discussing between ourselves the MOL, Revelation and Daniel. What is amazing that this is the first time I've looked at this particular thread since we started our research and the way you have joined the dots up is virtually the same connections we have made. Coincidence? God's guidance? Who knows, but I was blown away by the fact that independently we have seen the same patterns.
Anycase I'm in the process of putting together a mind map, in order to try to establish the connections and for it to provide the outline of an essay I plan to write on the subject. I really appreciate your thoughts because it sort of confirms the research my friend and I have been doing.
I have a lot to say on the matter and perhaps Meleti can start a thread on the subject?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 08:02:51

  We will be starting a discussion forum soon, once we work out the technical aspect of implementing it. That will be an ideal place for your discussion on the MoL to take place.

  • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-09 10:30:09

    I want to volunteer to help moderate. Forums get out of hand quickly.

    • Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-09 13:34:05

      Alex that is a good question.
      Meleti what would be the boundaries of minimum belief? For example would you allow brothers who have started to lean towards the Trinity to comment on their belief (an no, I'm not talking about me).

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 14:46:54

        They are pretty well outlined in the "About Our Forum" and "Commenting Etiquette" pages. For a practical case in point, see this recent comment.
        On the one hand we want to be reasonable and avoid dogmatism and the trap of presuming we know so much that anyone who doesn't agree with us is sinning against God. This is the failing of the current position of the Organization. On the other hand, we want to be obedient to our God who instructed us through John thus:
        (2 John 9-11) . . .Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.
        It is not always an easy line to trace out.

        • Reply by Sargon on 2014-02-09 15:43:38

          While I don't believe in the trinity as taught by some religions, I think it falls within the realm of Christian discussion. What I mean by that is, there are many texts that can be used to support their view. I do not consider the denial or acceptance of the trinity to be a fundamental Christian teaching necessary for salvation. Acknowledging Jesus as God's Son and the Christ is essential, and Trinitarian do believe this.

        • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-02-09 23:19:06

          I agree, Meleti. As moderator of another site, there is nothing worse than letting a forum digress into speculative, doctrinal and argumentative discussions that end with presumption attacking presumption until the sincere, newly arriving Jehovah's Witnesses who are needing a safe landing place are frightened off unnecessarily.
          The forum moderator must decide early on to stick to principles that factually support a site's decorum. Since you have already done this by demonstrating Occam's Razor in not going beyond what is written, you have correctly admonished us as Paul did the Thessalonians: "Make sure of all things, hold fast to what is fine." That was what Paul said in his first letter (which, by the way, was deliberately left out in paragraph 14 of today's study), but which Luke correctly assessed in Acts 17:11 by saying the Beroeans were more noble-minded. One way or the other you must limit how far a discussion can be tolerated before the sheep start fleeing for safer pastures.
          sw

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 23:39:59

            Thank you for the support. I've just now had to do this for one commenter who wasn't taking the hint. You are right. Allowing one individual complete freedom of expression could actually end up restricting the freedom of expression of others. The very ones we want to have join us could be chased away. That just wouldn't do.

        • Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-09 23:54:53

          Is not the nature of the forum, to explore Biblical truth wherever it leads to, even if it is disconcerting to some? "Striving for unbiased Bible research"?
          What does unbiased mean?
          Perhaps you should change that to mean, unbiased as long as you use only the Bible to prove your point.
          Even if convincing proof can be found elsewhere? Such as Geology, Archeology, Genetics, and ancient history that has not come through the Holy Roman and British Empire, such as the Sumerian texts for instance?
          In this case should we all just stick our heads in the sand, when this convincing proof does come along and disprove some of our cherished JW organizational cultivated ideas such as other extraterrestrial life out there apart from our own planet?
          From the Witness point of view, along with other fundamental Bible believing Christians the only other intelligent life out there in a Universe of over at least 200,000,000,000 galaxies with over 100,000,000,000 star systems in each one, there is only the angelic spirit creatures.
          Does this make any sense to a logical thinking person?
          What purpose is there then for all these star systems, just for decoration?
          A God who would see to it that there would be a large variety of animals here on the earth, but not a variety of intelligent life on habitable planets in all the cosmos?
          What about other intelligent life forms that are living here right on this planet?

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-10 08:47:31

            The problem is that you continue to express your views without providing an proof. The purpose of the forum is unbiased Bible research. While speculation or theorizing has its place in that context, it must be built on evidence and not unsubstantiated personal opinion.

      • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-09 15:45:35

        It seems to me that the simplest boundary would be to exclude doctrine that does not even claim a basis in scripture. Whether a particular interpretation of scripture holds up to scrutiny and harmonizes with the full body of scripture is certainly something that can be discussed. But there has to be a common foundation in scripture in order for there to be a basis for discussion.
        I recently requested removal of personal information posted by one person because I felt that he was promoting a sect. Were all the ideas that the sect is teaching based firmly on God's Word? I obviously don't think so, but my view may be treated as a subjective of course.
        In practice I don't think any discussion board can try to establish parameters like these, and remain 100% unbiased and impartial as to what is permitted. We'll just do the best we can.
        As to "leaning towards the Trinity", I find that needs further qualification. Whilst I do not believe the Trinity doctrine, I have come to appreciate that it has been misrepresented in JW literature for so long that your comment begs the question not only as to who might be leaning toward it, but what definition of it they are supposedly leaning toward? It's not fair in my opinion to make general statements that people are leaning towards something that hasn't been clearly defined, especially when the track record has been to inaccurately define it and then go continually out of the way to lean away from it regardless of what scripture actually says.
        The "Trinity" has almost been abused like the word "Apostate". A "straw man" definition is constructed followed by a constant reinforcement of the need to avoid it at all costs. Such an approach does not allow for critical or constructive thinking on the scriptures. But when it is done repeatedly it does give power to the one trying to herd the sheep into another pen.

        • Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-09 16:57:02

          Okay, so you would allow the discussion of the Trinity. Now I have mixed feelings whether that is a good or bad thing. On the one hand my liberal side would say yes lets go for it. But I'm aware that there are many 'trolls' on the internet who will try to take up inordinate amounts of discussion time, with this subject. This could be a distraction from the real things we as an 'ex' JW community need to be discussing. We could for example point them to excellent blogs, like this one http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html which is authored by an ex Trinitarian who set out to prove the position of JW was wrong!! Although he did not become a JW, he ended rejecting the Trinity and has the aforementioned blog site and a YouTube channel dedicated to the subject.
          Then there are other subjects like evolution. Would you again want to spend time discussing this subject with such individuals or point them to an appropriate web site where they can debate to their hearts content?
          You see, I'm just aware that there a many folk who may be be confused on these other subjects and whilst having an open forum appeals to my instinctive nature of 'listening to all sides' an inordinate amount of time could be spent on these discussions instead of looking at the real issues. Topics like Evoluton or the Trinity have been around 'forever' and will be debated ad infinitum, until Christ comes back and settles the issue once and for all. In the meantime there are plenty more interesting topics that we could be discussing.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 17:20:14

            You raise some excellent points, ImJustAsking. We will strive to keep our forum on topic, providing a place for the interchange of research with a view to a deeper understanding of Scripture. As part of this, we will reveal false teachings in our publications when these arise. This we see as a protection against indoctrination. Our growing community should always enjoy the freedom that the truth provides; the freedom of the children of God. We don't want to discourage open, respectful discussion. However, old discussions like evolution vs. creation or the Trinity have been ongoing for decades, or centuries in the case of the Trinity will do little to further our goal. Of course, if there is a fresh or novel approach to some age-old topic, we're open to considering its validity, but that can only be accomplished on a case by case basis rather than the implementation of some sweeping site policy. For example, a discussion of the nature of Jesus or his relationship with Jehovah may very well touch on some issues which Trinitarians raise to support their thesis. I guess what I'm trying to say by way of a reassurance to the readership is that we will look at each new item carefully to make sure it conforms to the spirit of our discussion forum.

          • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-09 18:24:22

            In any case, no one would be obliged to discuss anything that doesn't interest them. I think that the concern of taking up time with things that might not be the most interesting thing to a particular person is obviously never going to be resolvable because we all have different issues that for one reason or another are going to be of more concern for us.
            Meleti said it well. I didn't endorse a discussion of the Trinity per se. But in discussing the nature of Jesus there is bound to be some overlap. So my general question to you was what you really meant by the Trinity. If we as JW's are misunderstanding the true nature of the Son of God, simply because a distorted view of the Trinity has been impressed upon us, then it is not a trivial matter in my opinion.
            I note that a number of people are particularly concerned to discuss whether the error of the GB is fulfillment of prophecy. That happens to be a topic that I am disinclined to get deeply involved in, since as I've commented several times, I don't want to enter into the area of judgement of individuals. Also with my view that all those who call themselves Christians in the harvest season are still wheat or weeds regardless of denomination, the role of any Christian "leaders" simply becomes part of a bigger picture. However, if others feel the necessity to discuss this issue very specifically in relation to the GB then I can understand why they might feel that way. So I think we have to have some tolerance for what is important and unimportant to others. That may also change over time, and for us individually as new thoughts are triggered by what others have to say. Therefore I myself have no wish to suppress any specific topics unless there is a clear scriptural principle for so doing.
            Although we will still continue to cover some of these topics as articles, once we have the discussion forum up and running then forum members can "vote with their keyboards". We can all be smart enough to spot trolls and not waste time with them. Good forum moderation will play a part in that also.
            Apollos
            P.S. Brother Kel was right to abandon the doctrine of the Trinity. As he himself would no doubt admit, that does not leave the Christology of JW's as the natural alternative. Logically BOTH doctrines can be flawed, just as an Islamic view of Christ is not correct simply because it rejects the Trinity. Unless you feel that the true understanding of the nature of Christ is unimportant, then it does still leave a question to be answered. For what reason should we not have that conversation on this site?

        • Reply by Sargon on 2014-02-09 16:57:23

          I was embarrassed to learn how badly our literature misrepresents the trinity doctrine. We teach that the churches believe that the Father and Son are the same person. This is not what the trinity doctrine actually is. Now I feel intellectually dishonest every time I've debated it in service and called people stupid for believing it.

          • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-09 18:35:11

            I myself feel the same way Sargon. I have been there, and I remember specific conversations where I was fixed in my misunderstanding of what the person was saying.
            I think that in itself is one reason to have the conversation here. If JWs reading this site truly understood the doctrine, they would spend less time having these face-offs with people at their door, when in fact they are not even comprehending the person's thought process. Of course in some cases the person to whom we are speaking doesn't understand the doctrine either, so it just compounds the problem. And those latter people will also be susceptible to "the truth" based upon selected scriptures if they are misled into thinking that the supposed alternative is 3 persons in 1 person. And rightly so, if those were truly the alternatives. But then the Bible itself would have some irreconcilable problems, and since we work on the premise that it doesn't, then we look deeper to harmonize the full body of scripture.

Comment by imjustasking on 2014-02-09 10:26:17

Thanks Meleti, I look forward to that :-)

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 20:25:37

I would like to suggest here that ideas about ‘extra-terrestrial civilizations’
and other such myths, are promoted by Satan to artificially raise ethical
dilemmas about the suppression of 'demon rights’ etc.
as just another ‘minority’ group worthy of ‘special protection,’ who
along with all other humans not submitting to this ‘genocidal’ Jehovah
and His Christ, are in clear and present danger of being exterminated
by Him at the coming ‘hate crime’ of Armageddon.
Hence, anyone buying into this ‘advanced aliens’ lie, is actually
serving Satan’s agenda, and places himself firmly outside of
Christian belief.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 20:29:11

Here is my take on the trinity:
If Jesus was ‘very God,’ then He, like His Father, was
‘very immortal;’
hence His death was ‘very fake,’ and those who believe
in it are ‘very unsaved’ and also ‘very stupid.’
The argument that only His ‘humanity’ died for us is
an unacceptable cop-out.
If the whole Christ, including His very soul, didn't actually
die into non-existence, then the resurrection was a mere
resuscitation, and the corresponding ransom repurchasing
transaction is a mere sham, and that is the whole point of
the trinity.
Did Adam just forfeit his ‘humanity,’ to be rewarded with
spirit life elsewhere for his disobedience?
No doubt, such lies are implicit in the trinity, which is why
Satan wants us to buy into it.

• Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-09 23:59:28

  What about a Trinity that does not include Jesus himself, would that solve this theological problem and controversy among Christians?

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 20:33:33

Hmm, the system doesn't seem to work for me;
when I send my replies to posts further up, they
end up right at the bottom here and out of
context; why is that, it seems to work alright
for everybody else - do I sense a software
conspiracy here? lol

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 23:44:37

  Are you clicking on the reply directly under the post you are replying to?

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 20:34:50

Dear administrators,
I wonder if you could just open a thread on the MoL
topic where the sub-categorization feature is switched
off, which would keep all replies of equal width and
in strictly chronological order,
so as to aid in orientation on the page as to its inviolable
sequence, as that would be all that is needed to facilitate
the flow of discussion a bit more.
Just a thought from a tech-dreamer.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-09 23:43:41

  Thanks for the suggestion. I think we can do that. We should have the discussion forum up and running very soon.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 20:35:53

Hi ‘imjustasking,’
sorry to ignore you; I am keen to hear your thoughts on
the MoL on its own thread, along with those of Joel,
Meleti, Apollos and everyone else’s.

• Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-10 04:49:35

  Hi Ross, no worries No offense taken :-)
  I really look forward to this particular discussion because I think collectively and with Gods HS we may step closer to the Truth.
  Sometimes I have to pinch myself.
  How could you, me, Apollos et al who are nothing in the GSOT actually be touching on Truth when much better men before us have been so wrong? True, we also could be totally of the mark, but because the Bible is self interpreting (ie in this case between the books of Daniel, Rev and Thess) then provided we keep this in mind, we may be able to see things a little clearer.
  When we get around to discussing the MOL,could we keep the thread in a structured format and chip away at the block bit by bit? For example
  1. What time frame is Thess, Rev and Daniel alluding to? Indeed is it the same time frame? (I happen to believe it is - a reason I'll expound when we discuss this on the forum)
  2. Are there any similarities between the beast of Rev and Daniel (there are many - again we'll have to wait for the forum)
  3. Is there any similarities between BTG and those who forsake the covenant in Daniel 11:32?
  4. Why can't the MOL be Christendom as the Society teaches?
  5. What, if any relationship exists between the KOTN and the little horn that speaks against God?
  6. Is there any bearing of the GT as recorded by Jesus with Daniel and the KOTN?
  I could go on, but you get the point. If we break it down, bit by bit instead of a free for all, any pertinent points that individuals may bring out will not get lost in endless pages of opinion and thought.
  Meleti, I don't know if as a group we will be able to reach a common consensus or not. I doubt it. But is there a way that we can keep a 'record card' of sorts that would just highlight the opinion of the majority as each part of the topic is discussed and concluded. So for example, say it was feasible and we discussed the topic in the way I suggested at the end of say point 1 (relating to the time frame of the prophecy) could we 'vote' on it? Then this vote would be aggregated to the rest of the sections. My hope would be that at the end of the thread, some clear pointers would emerge. So we might be able to say that x% of the forum based on the facts presented have reason to believe the time frame of the prophecy is Y. And of course the other points would be summarised in a similar fashion.
  Do-able or not? What do you think?

  • Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-10 04:53:33

    Meleti, one other thing. We will need an edit button.
    It may have happened to you, that after a post you spot a mistake or need to add something to clarify a point. At the moment we have to post a new comment. As I am doing now. When in fact it would be much easier if one had say, ten minutes to edit the post, before it it became permanent.
    I've seen this done on other forums and I believe it would be a nice to have feature on the one you are proposing.
    Just a thought.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-10 09:38:21

      An excellent one. I haven't found a way to do that with this forum, but I'm hoping once we do the conversion, it will also be possible here.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-10 09:36:53

    I think that is very doable. I'll explore the technical end of things with Apollos, and we'll see how we can implement that idea. Sounds like a good way to proceed.

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2014-02-10 05:46:01

Don't worry Meleti I do get the hint now.
Since you have just recently removed a couple of my posts.
This posts were not meant to offend, just as I'm sure Jesus did not wish to offend his listeners as to new truths that he had to share with them.
Not that I am in the same league as Jesus, far from it being a very imperfect human being, but this new information that I have to share is after all from his celestial angels.
It is not that new really as it has been around for over 70 years on this planet, but only a few people up and until now have stumbled upon this information as I believe it was designed first of all primarily for genuine truth seekers who would later go on to be teachers, and for those who are desirous of progressing in there own spirituality.
It is a shame Meleti as you do have a real ability to be a fine teacher, if you only knew just how much more truth there is than what is contained within the Bible.
Anyway goodbye for now unless you have a change of attitude towards the revealing of new truths, but that is up to you now.
I will still peruse what you write and if I see an invitation from you, I will pop in again.
Anyway, bye for now.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-10 09:01:05

  Jesus' "new truths" as you call them, were just that, "truths". He did not speak of his own originality. He did not share unsubstantiated opinion but said, "it is written", or "have you not read". His support and authority came from the Scriptures and when he spoke something new, it was accepted because he had been publicly authorized by God to do so, not only by his ability to perform miracles, but by God's own voice from heaven instructing us to "listen to him". (John 14:10; Mat. 4:4; 12:3; 17:5)
  That your information purportedly comes from celestial angels is of concern. Rutherford thought the holy spirit no longer revealed truths, but that it came from the angels and we all know the legacy he has saddled us with. Be careful. You have Paul's warning to the Galatians.
  "However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:8)
  Paul would never have held with your belief that not all of the Bible is true, for it was he who told Timothy that "all Scripture is inspired of God..." (2 Tim. 3:16)

  • Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-10 12:26:24

    I second everything you said in reply to 'A searcher for truth' (ASFT)
    Why do we need angels, when we have Jesus?
    And was not that point Paul was making to the Hebrews? We have something better than angels!!
    Meleti, although I have not seen the threads you deleted the way ASFT described them sounds suspiciously familar. When e-Watchman had his forum there was a member that posted similar ideas about information from angels. There was a book that he used to talk about. Ah I remember now, just as I type. I think it was the book of Unitaria or similar. I may have got that wrong, but it was something along those lines. Anycase, the said individual did not get much truck from anybody on the forums then and neither should he do so here.
    Thank you for having the wherewithal to spot such rubbish and to consign it to the trash can, which is the only place for such misleading trash. Thank you!!
    Sorry ASFT if I have sounded harsh, but really? Give it up man. Have you ever considered that the Koran and Book of Mormon also has claim to angelic authorship!! Why not start with one of those as well!!!

• Reply by Joel on 2014-02-10 18:04:41

  A searcher for truth: I want you to know that I have read and listened to everything you have said. As Meleti has pointed out though, you simply must try to appreciate that everyone here is interested in discussing bible truth, mainly it seems, because we have come to realise over time that what we were taught as THE truth, is not as much truth as it seemed to be. You have to try and understand why this is the case. I'm hoping that with a couple of comments that I may be able to help you to understand.
  "Since you have just recently removed a couple of my posts.
  This posts were not meant to offend"
  I am not so easily offended, certainly not by an alternate viewpoint, but I would like to straighten out how far "alternate" can really go.
  "just as I’m sure Jesus did not wish to offend his listeners as to new truths that he had to share with them."
  In fact, you are probably aware of several occasions on which Jesus offended his listeners recorded in the gospels. The first thing you really need to understand - Jesus told us he is "the way and the truth and the life".
  "this new information that I have to share is after all from his celestial angels."
  1) first, you need to prove: a) that you have new information, b) that its source can be verified
  2) having considered that, do you not think it is strange that Jesus would send this information via angels, when he explicitly told his followers to wait for his coming? It might cause you to second guess the source of such information.
  3) do you not think the receipt of such information also contradicts Rev 22:18,19?
  "18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
  19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
  4) what do you then think of 2 John 1:10?
  "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them."
  "It is not that new really as it has been around for over 70 years on this planet, but only a few people up and until now have stumbled upon this information"
  Why should I disregard 2 John 1:10 for recent information? Jesus who you claim to respect said "I am with you all the days until the conclusion".
  "help.... those who are desirous of progressing in there own spirituality."
  It helps progress spirituality beyond recognising Jesus as being the way and the truth and the life and beyond his teachings for life as well? Which by the way completely contradicts the scriptures.
  "if you only knew just how much more truth there is than what is contained within the Bible."
  Again, verification please. Citation please. I doubt you can really substantiate words beyond those of the scriptures and Jesus.
  "change of attitude towards the revealing of new truths"
  I must point out without wishing to cause offense, you haven't revealed any truths in this comment. I did pick up on a few points in another comment you made and so I would like to do you the courtesy of responding to a few of them as well.

• Reply by Joel on 2014-02-10 18:43:06

  "Is not the nature of the forum, to explore Biblical truth wherever it leads to, even if it is disconcerting to some? “Striving for unbiased Bible research”?"
  There is nothing disconcerting about biblical truth. Jesus said to keep seeking for it as for hidden treasure. Everytime you just "think" you have discovered something a little more, it builds you up.
  "What does unbiased mean?"
  It simply means that in the context of Bible research you are willing to consider any understanding that fits rather than shoe horn what you already know.
  "Perhaps you should change that to mean, unbiased as long as you use only the Bible to prove your point."
  Well, we are talking about Bible research, BUT if you have something really worthwhile to share that can be substantiated....?
  "Even if convincing proof can be found elsewhere? Such as Geology, Archeology, Genetics, and ancient history that has not come through the Holy Roman and British Empire, such as the Sumerian texts for instance?"
  In your other comment you said you had information from angels. Now it is the sciences. Can you be more specific? Proof of what exactly? Genetics I will take you up on for example. Genetic analysis has now proven that all humans alive are descended from 2 people. At first, it was supposedly proven that mitochondrial Eve and genetic Adam lived possibly 60,000 years apart. And more recent research now places BOTH of them at 90,000 years ago (oh, but the researchers felt the need to point out that these 2 people didn't know each other) - so in the end all humans come from 2 people just as the bible says.
  Can you cite an example from Sumerian texts that you believe supplants bible teaching?
  "In this case should we all just stick our heads in the sand, when this convincing proof does come along and disprove some of our cherished JW organizational cultivated ideas"
  First, we are engaged in researching the validity of organisational teachgins
  Second, where is this proof you speak of?
  "such as other extraterrestrial life out there apart from our own planet?"
  Proof?
  "From the Witness point of view, along with other fundamental Bible believing Christians the only other intelligent life out there in a Universe of over at least 200,000,000,000 galaxies with over 100,000,000,000 star systems in each one, there is only the angelic spirit creatures.
  Does this make any sense to a logical thinking person?"
  Yes, to a logical thinking person it does. Anything is possible I suppose, but the bible tells us that God made the Earth a special case. In fact, in another comment, you yourself said that God lifted up the human race to a new level. Regardless, if there was all kinds of other intelligent life flitting around out there, why would God send his Son to die on our behalf? This sort of reasoning reminds me of
  1 Corinthians 15:12-19
  "12 Now if Christ is preached, that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
  13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
  14 and if Christ be not risen, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain.
  15 Yea, and we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up, if so it be that the dead rise not.
  16 For if the dead rise not, then is Christ not raised;
  17 and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
  18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
  19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."
  You say the Earth is not a special case, which basically by extension would render Christian belief null and void. Yet, you claim to acknowledge Jesus as the great teacher? It is a confusing point of view. Jesus acknowledged the law AND covenant given to the Jews and said he fulfilled it and indeed he did. Your words would make the covenant with Abraham seem worthless and illogical. The bible is a book of unparalleled wisdom and spiritual heritage.
  "What purpose is there then for all these star systems, just for decoration?"
  Perhaps. It is a fallacious argument to argue that sheer numbers makes emptiness impossible. Most of space is pretty vacant and it outnumbers matter considerably. The universe is to all intents and purposes infinite as far as we are concerned. Infinity does not imply extraterrestrial life. It is ok to suppose there could be other life, it is quite another to prove it.
  "A God who would see to it that there would be a large variety of animals here on the earth, but not a variety of intelligent life on habitable planets in all the cosmos?"
  You seek to limit God and his purpose? Perhaps he wants us to have an infinite space to expand in, starting from Earth? Perhaps it is to show that even his physical creation can be infinite? Perhaps it is so we can never escape physical creation? Perhaps the infinity is an illusion? Perhaps physical creation is not as infinite as it seems? We do not know, because we have not been told.
  "What about other intelligent life forms that are living here right on this planet?"
  As in human intelligence? Sentient? Such as?

  • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-10 19:16:07

    Good work Joel. I appreciate your patience in tackling this point by point. I am cautious about censorship, but you (along with some of the other counter-comments) have demonstrated why it is in the best interests of the site for stuff like this to be blocked.

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2014-02-10 12:51:15

Not sure whether the Feb.15, 2014 Questions from Readers fits the speculations upon which our faith might be "shaken." It asks—What reasons did Jews in the first century have for being “in expectation” of the Messiah?
The last three paragraphs read as follows:
“If the apostles and other early Christians had correctly understood the prophecy about the 70 weeks, we would expect them to have mentioned the prophecy as proof that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that he had arrived on time. But there is no evidence that the early Christians did so.
“Another point is worth noting. Gospel writers often mentioned prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. (Matthew 1:22, 23; 2:13-15; 4:13-16) But none of them wrote that the prophecy of the 70 weeks had anything to do with Jesus Christ.
“To review: We cannot be sure that people in Jesus’ day correctly understood the prophecy of the 70 weeks. However, in the Gospels, there are other good reasons why the Jews would have been expecting the Messiah to arrive.”
Seeing that the Watchtower now acknowledges that “we cannot be sure” that even the inspired first century writers had calculated the 70 years of Daniel’s prophecy, how is it that we, anticipating Christ’s second arrival could be so sure to calculate the 7 times of Daniel 4:16-32? And why did we spent the better part of two 'public edition' WT's to reinforce the historically unsubstantiated date of 607 BCE?
It seems to me that rather than acknowledge error, we bolster it. Why? Well, I know it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to determine that our house of failed realizations stands precariously upon one supposed fulfillment which—should that ever fail, so will our entire doctrine of an appointed faithful and discreet slave.
Any thoughts?
sw

• Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-02-10 12:56:43

  Sorry, meant to say, "It seems to me that rather than acknowledge THIS error, we bolster it."

  • Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-10 13:57:38

    Hi SW, you are spot on. if 1914 goes, then then EVERYTHING else goes.
    That is why they tenaciously hang onto it.
    If one tries to tackle the argument in any way, it will fall on deaf ears. It will be a matter of your word against theirs. Your average Joe will ALWAYS take their word.
    However, I have posted to Meleti a simple essay that shows how the mathematics from 607 BCE to 1914 is erroneous. Do you remember how they got the calculation wrong in the first place, with them counting a year zero, which threw out the return of Christ by a year? Doh!! Well they have done it again. No, not the same year zero mistake but something just as dumb.
    What makes using a simple maths calculation attractive is that maths is totally agnostic regarding who is doing the calculation. Something adds up or it dosen't!! To use a philosophical term, it has what is called 'Rigorous Consistency'. Even if the Devil said 2+2=4, although he is the father of LIES, in this instance he would be right!!
    In a similar fashion, using the most BASIC arithmetic one can prove 1914 is false. So the Society (ergo the R&F) cannot hide behind the apostate banner or simply brush away the facts as a matter of interpretation. The maths says its either right or wrong. And in this case it can be demonstratively PROVED they are WRONG!! And believe me, no matter how poor ones maths is, the proof only requires one to be able to add and subtract. Nothing more. If you can do that, 1914 can be proved to a pile of steaming horse manure.
    I think Meleti will be posting what I sent him on the forum when that is up and running. When he does, I'll love to hear your thoughts.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-10 14:05:01

      Good point about math, ImJustAsking. When the discussion forum is up, I'll let you post that article as you can explain it better than I.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-10 19:53:56

Hi ‘imjustasking,’
I hear your thought about a perceived need for structural form,
but you already provided the answer to that, in your noticing
the Holy Spirit being in the midst of those gathering in
Christ’s Name, even BEFORE they are in physical communication
with one another - should that not obviate our concern about
format and framework?
The wind blows where it wants to...we just have to tap into
it with the right attitude and motive, to behold the glory of
God in Christ among us.
Truth is a matter of revelation, not consensus building.
I am looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

• Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-11 02:49:48

  Hi Ross, no I'm not looking for consensus. Consensus by the majority, tradition or democracy are not substitutes for the guiding of the Holy Spirit. On that I with you.
  Rather, speaking personally I find that in a discussion some really valid points are made that PROVE a matter or at least act as milestone but are then lost in the ebb and flow of the thread. It is these milestones that I wish to capture for later reference.
  So for example, lets say that someone can prove logistically and scripturally the time frame for the appearance of the MOL. Now such proof may be presented halfway through a thread, but as a stand out point it could be lost as it is crowded out by other comments.
  As I see it, this subject (re MOL) has so many twists and turns that it will likely run into many pages and all the stand out points could be lost in the 'chatter'. By having a structured approach to the subject rather than a free for all, at the very least it will be possible to glean the pertinent points from each proposed section of the conversation.
  And lastly, even if the Holy Spirit is at work, we have a responsibility to make sure we present what we are directed to discern in a logical and cohesive manner, even if we don't have a 'vote' button. I leave you with Luke, an inspired author as a case in point:
  Luk 1:1 Whereas many have undertaken to compile a statement of the facts that are given full credence among us,
  Luk 1:2 just as those who from [the] beginning became eyewitnesses and attendants of the message delivered these to us,
  Luk 1:3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in logical order to you, most excellent The·oph'i·lus,

  • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-12 00:45:53

    IJA -
    Are you just proposing that the format of our discussion be organized a little more? If so I definitely agree. If for nothing else it cuts down on continuing /starting arguments on many different posts. It also cuts down on repetition and there's a central spot where certain subjects are debated at length

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-12 08:28:43

      Apollos and I are working on setting up a discussion forum as you suggest. Give us a couple of weeks and it should be up and running

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-11 23:03:27

Hi ‘imjustasking,'
it seems that the teaching of truth happens not so much as
a result of what is logically written - whether in Scripture or
in its interpretation -
but by the corroborating evidence of the Spirit in the heart
of the willing and honest individual;
otherwise the Christian world would already be a much better
place.
Hence, any attempt at making people see that which they
already claim to see, will only serve to hide the truth more
effectively in plain sight.
No matter how well and logically the truth of a matter is presented,
people will select evidence to draw conclusions in line with what
they want to be true, regardless of whether it is, or not.
Truth shines best in controversy to those loving it with right
motive.
The Holy Spirit could well have produced a systematic theology
for us to read and follow; but now much is up to our will seeking
to do His.
And by said will we have been sanctified through the offering
of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time, to bear witness to
the truth.

• Reply by imjustasking on 2014-02-12 04:00:44

  Hi Ross. Amen to what you said.
  GodsWordIsTruth hit the nail on the head. Lets have a format for these discussions that allows the debate to be STRUCTURED. I gave one suggestion, but others may suggest a better alternative. If we can have a debate that is more structured then I think that will be for the good (1 Cor 14:40)
  At the end of the day, as you said people will draw conclusions either from an honest open heart or from one that is biased. But for the sake of my own sanity, I would prefer to draw a conclusion from a thread where it would be easy to pick out the pertinent points.