Midweek Meeting Comments – Feb. 10, 2014

Comment by on 2014-02-09 23:36:54

Isn't it interesting to note an uncanny parallel in how
God’s pre-Christian tutor arrangement, just like
its modern counterpart the WT, has failed signally
in its assigned task of leading people to Christ,
but instead has shut up the kingdom of the Heavens
before its charges, not only not entering in themselves,
but also not permitting those on their way in to go in,
on pain of being expelled from God’s nominal
community -
zealously traversing sea and dry land to make proselytes
subject for Gehenna twice as much so as themselves,
while their fellow tutor systems in the rest of Christendom,
although preaching the Heavenly calling, are leading their
followers to the inherently immortal christ, who had to
fake his death to 'save' them.
However, to those who have received authority to graduate
from these weak and beggarly elementary organizations
with their commands and teachings of men - to enter into
the glorious freedom of the children of God - Christ has
become the power of God and the wisdom of God.
As to Jacob getting the better of his brother, when it
came to receiving God’s blessing meant for the firstborn,
it would not likely have escaped his notice that Esau
all along was not that much interested in intangibles,
which was confirmed at the occasion of Esau changing
his birthright for a mere pot of stew;
could this, perhaps, be a case of wisdom being proved
righteous by all its children, who seem to treasure the
distant promise more than any present reality and benefits?
Then, the account of the woman at the well, would have
lent itself for an excellent lesson about what it means
to be a TRUE worshiper,
who worships the Father no longer in this Church, or,
as those who think that salvation originates with them
would have it, in that Kingdom Hall over there,
but in a spiritual location, and under spiritual direction
from the heart-indwelling Head of the New Creation itself.
Eph.3:17

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-09 23:56:17

Sorry, forgot to give my name for the above post, lol

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2014-02-10 00:14:25

Hi Meleti,
You wrote, "If you are troubled by Jacob’s willingness to lie and deceive so as to rob his brother of his father’s blessing, remember that these men were without law."
I've often used this in my assessment of the earlier patriarchs who were more driven by the continuance of the promised seed than the code of honesty or honour, the lack of which shocks the more politically correct among us today. The fact is, it was Rebecca who set up the deception. And Isaac just didn't seem up to it.
Already we've seen Lot offer his daughters than see his guests given to the people of Sodom. This is an ancient custom, not law. Eastern Arabic culture demanded that one should die rather that endanger the life of a guest in his own home, even if that guest were a mortal enemy. How Lot's wife might have felt wasn't even mentioned. And when his wife was turned to a pillar of salt, was he really so drunk that his own daughters could seduce him so as to carry on the family name? despite no indication that the seed would ever pass through him?
sw

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-10 08:36:21

  Perhaps Lot was saved on the basis of his friendship to Abraham, Abraham having shown willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice. Likewise, worse than Lot can be saved on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ.
  Also Lot had shown obedience to the angel messengers of Jehovah at the time it mattered for his salvation. Likewise those honest hearted who repent in the GT may be found righteous. The three angels were sent to investigate.

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-10 10:13:11

I have commented on this site before that I believe the scriptures support that the Great crowd are in heaven . In reading the Reasoning book’s part this week, my attention was diverted to the section “See also pages 162-168, under the heading “Heaven.”
The Reasoning book under that section states “The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible”.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.”
I decided to look at this teaching with the view to reason on the scriptures for myself rather than accept the GB’s “Reasoning from the Scriptures”. That particular paragraph made me curious to re-examine this line of reasoning.
That paragraph provides no scriptural support as to why the GB believes the “great crowd in heaven” are angels in this verse. However the scriptures that they reference in this section say this…
Reve 7:9 says, “After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+
Reve 19: 1 says, “After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah!*+ The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God,
Reve 19:6 says, “And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah,*+ because Jehovah* our God, the Almighty,+ has begun to rule as king!+
Revelation 7:9 does not say that the Great Crowd is on earth but they are standing before the throne. Revelation 19:1 specifically states that there is a "Great Crowd’ in heaven.
Revelation 7:15 states that the Great Crowd are "in his temple “That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.”
Most translations (according to Bible Hub) states that the Great Crowd are before the throne of God in Reve. 7:15 whereas the RNWT renders this verse as them being before the “temple”
New International Version
Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
I decided to look past Watchtowers try to refresh my memory on where exactly the GB feels the Great Crowd are in rendering service to God in the temple .. On earth ? Or in heaven?
I found my old WT CD! :) and was able to find that in 1980, the GB states that the great crowd is on the earth and states that the Greek word naos can refer to the other courtyard. ( I have to admit a lot in this WT went way over my head in regards to translating this word) Based on this WT we ( the great crowd) are not actually in the temple but in the “ other courtyard”.
Then the Watchtower 2002 May 1 pp.30-31 states the great crowd are in fact in the temple and NOT OUTSIDE the temple in the “other courtyard” but we are in a spiritual court of the Gentiles (what is a spiritual court of the Gentiles? It sounds like the GB invented that)
“But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!" - Watchtower 2002 May 1 pp.30-31
I was glad to find that someone wrote in to clarify where exactly the great crowd are in the temple . In a Question from our Readers (Watchtower 2010 Mar 15 p.26) the reader asks “When John saw the “great crowd” rendering sacred service in Jehovah’s temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?”—Revelation 7:9-15.
The response in part was "Two groups of people have been joined together — the small group of anointed ones and the great crowd of other sheep. (Read Zechariah 8:23.) Although the other sheep do not symbolically serve in the inner courtyard of the spiritual temple, they do serve in the outer courtyard of that temple." (Watchtower 2010 Mar 15 p.26)
So the now GB states we ( the great crowd) are back out in the “outer courtyard”….
But Jesus tells John that the outer courtyard is “given to the nations”….
At Revelation 11:1-2 "And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: "Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations,..."
It appears to me that 1) I need clarification on this Greek word naos to figure out why it was rendered that way in the NWT in Revelation 7:15. 2) The GB does not want the “spiritual Gentiles” in the temple. I am starting to agree with the commenter awhile back who stated that our religion is really a form of Judaism.
I do not find the GB’s explanation of the great crowd rendering service to the temple that is on the earth particularly satisfying. What temple on earth are they referring to? The throne (or temple as the GB renders it) is clearly in the heavens according to the revelation Jesus gave John.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-10 10:48:32

  This link will take you to several Bible commentaries that discuss the Temple "naos" of Rev. 7:15.
  http://biblehub.com/greek/3485.htm
  In short, the definition is "a temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides."
  According to Strong's NT:
  ναός, ναοῦ, ὁ (ναίω to dwell), the Sept. for הֵיכָל, used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies (in classical Greek used of the sanctuary or cell of a temple, where the image of the god was placed, called also δόμος, σηκός, which is to be distinguished from τό ἱερόν, the whole temple, the entire consecrated enclosure; this distinction is observed also in the Bible;

  • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-10 11:20:32

    Thanks Meleti!
    I did not even realize that Bible Hub had a spot for that …..
    In that Watchtower 1980 Aug 15 pp.14-16 The "Great Crowd" Renders Sacred Service Where? It says:
    ”The question revolves around that original Greek word that is variously translated as "tent," "temple" and "sanctuary." For example, in the Bible account of where Jesus Christ drove the money changers and merchantmen out of Herod's temple, the original Greek word used is na.os'. There we read: "Jesus answered, 'Destroy this sanctuary [na.os'], and in three days I will raise it up'. The Jews replied, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this sanctuary [na.os']: are you going to raise it up in three days?' But he was speaking of the sanctuary [na.os'] that was his body." (John 2:19-21, The Jerusalem Bible) By "sanctuary," what did those Jews mean?
    “Certainly not the inner sanctuary that contained the vestibule, the Holy and the Most Holy compartments ….”
    I looked at the scripture at John 2:14-15 in The Kingdom Interlinear where Jesus drove the money changers out of Herod's temple, the original Greek word used for temple is hieron not naos like this WT says . ( I don’t understand the significance between the two )
    I am trying to find a short answer to what this WT is trying to prove. I know that you have a thousand things to do Meleti. However, whenever you get a chance could you tell me whether why the WT is making a big deal out of rendering this word as “temple instead of “throne” at Rev. 7:15? Based on this WT it seems they are doing so in an effort to establish that the Great Crowd is in an “outer courtyard” like the old Jewish temple. I am not sure if John was attempting to make reference to the old temple arrangement in speaking about God’s “temple” or “throne”. In my mind whether the word should be rendered temple or throne it is in the heavens.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-10 11:39:44

      I think you're misreading the rendering in the RNWT which reads:
      (Revelation 7:15) . . .That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
      They are correctly rendering naos as temple. The problem is that when interpreting the verse, they do not want to consider this to be the inner chamber, the holy of holies where the throne of God is, because that places the great crowd where we believe only the anointed can be. Since we do not consider the great crowd to be anointed, this creates a problem for our theology which has to be explained away. Hence the dishonest attempt to label it the outer courtyard hieron.

      • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-10 12:02:20

        I did misread it.... that makes alot more sense. I am going to use your comment to dig deeper.

      • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-10 12:44:58

        Perhaps a very bad example is how falsified "missing link" fossils don't necessarily disprove evolution. Likewise falsified evidence concerning naos / hieron in the magazines doesn't necessarily disprove a naos on earth.
        However the burden of proof is on the GB, and I don't think they provided a good reason for the GC on earth doctrine yet.
        I think I have uncovered an interesting argument, but it needs a more elaborating than a comment allows, so I will try to write it as an article and submit it. Then I'll be happy even if the argument is completely refuted, so the skeleton can be put to rest.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-10 10:56:57

  If you think of Great Crowd as non-priest Levites versus the priestly anointed, both would have their robes white and both would serve alongside each other in the courtyard.
  Russell pointed out in "tabernacles, shadow of greater sacrifice", that this courtyard of copper instruments represented earth, while the holy place represented the heavenly hope, and the most holy the heavenly presence near Jah.
  One possibility I have entertained is similar to Russell, that there is no GC today, so for now the call goes out only for the greater privilege of priest, but those who fall short yet hold up their palm branches for Christ on his return, will be a secondary merciful arrangement to have the privilege in serving alongside the priests in restoration of the earth.
  While Russell painted the CG in heaven, it conflicts with the copper observation he himself made. Could the GC possibly be on earth, if the priests will be in heaven? Revelation 21 paints a picture of the Bride coming down to earth from heaven.
  This opens up a potential avenue for reconciling both ends of doctrinal spectrum.

  • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-10 10:58:36

    Revelation 21:3
    And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
    If the temple came to earth then people on earth could be in the naos?

    • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-10 11:16:57

      I have additional arguments about NAOS in context of the Strong NT. I think Strong is right in regards to Herod's temple, but should prophecy be modeled after Herod's man-made temple or the desert tent Jehovah himself gave the perfect instructions for? I will write up an argument for the latter.

      • Reply by anderestimme on 2014-02-10 12:51:20

        The w02 5/1 QfR does address this point, showing that things like the Court of the Gentiles and the Court of the Women of Herod's temple could rightly be discarded in any heavenly fulfillment.
        I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

  • Reply by on 2014-02-10 12:22:12

    Yes. The fact that Revelation 7 says that 12,000 are taken out of each tribe, suggest a smaller number being subtracted from a greater number. What the total number is isn't stated, but could very well apply to a larger, non-priestly heavenly class.

    • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-10 13:20:49

       REV 11:1-2- 11 And a reed like a rod*+ was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city+ underfoot for 42 months.+.
       These  verses  state that there is a temple sanctuary and an outer courtyard. God seems to be concerned only with the worshipers and the sanctuary. (Again, John says the outer court are  the nations)
       REV 11: 19  And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary.+ And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.
      According to this verse the temple sanctuary is in the heaven. So if naos is in heaven where is the Great Crowd? How in the world are they in the outer courts?  I wonder if hieron is even  used in the book of Revelation. This chapter again talks about the heaven…there are no references to the earth.
       Additionally... Why are they stating the Great crowd in chapter 19 suddenly refers to the angels?

  • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-10 16:45:47

    “This opens up a potential avenue for reconciling both ends of doctrinal spectrum”
    I am very interested in both sides. I am particularly interested in the argument that the GC is on the earth. That is the GB’s view and I don’t believe that they have explained it well.
    When attempting to find a “antitype” comparison for God’s spiritual temple in Revelation, the GB acknowledges in the 2002 WT that upon “ further research” Herod’s temple is a bad example. According to the article they believe that Solomon’s temple is a better comparison. Revelation however does not speak of an outer or inner courtyard. I am not sure if Solomon’s temple is a good example either.
    For what is worth I do not believe that the GC is in an outer courtyard. John states that God says that the courtyard (no reference to an inner or outer courtyard) “has been given to the nations”. If I remember correctly the GB in the Revelation book says the “holy city” is represented by the anointed Christians in the temple’s inner courtyard. So if we (GC) are somehow in an “ outer courtyard” then are we, according to Reve 11:2, going to join the nations in trampling the holy city (the anointed)?.

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-10 11:32:41

“I think Strong is right in regards to Herod’s temple, but should prophecy be modeled after Herod’s man-made temple or the desert tent Jehovah himself gave the perfect instructions for?”
My thoughts exactly Alex. I was looking for a quick answer when reviewing the Reasoning book part, instead I have more questions.
“If the temple came to earth then people on earth could be in the naos?”
The GB does not attempt to explain (as far as I have researched) how the courtyard of this “temple” or “throne” is on the earth. However, in their defense I lost my Revelation book….
I guess I will continue to go down the rabbit hole to see where it leads. Who knows …I am may come back full circleto what the GB says. I am doubtful. I am looking forward to reading what you find Alex :)

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-10 19:44:32

The great crowd are said to be in God’s temple before His
throne, which makes it appear like they are in Heaven, if it
weren't for the detail that God actually spreads His tent
over them and guides them to fountains of waters of life.
Are we supposed to imagine God pitching a tent there in
front of His throne in Heaven?
Do you pitch a tent in your living room, in order to dwell
there?
Is not a tent used to dwell for a short period of time away
from home?
Would not the earth provide a fine picnic spot for God
to pitch His tent, and reside with the great crowd in a
representative way during Christ’s millennial reign?
Would Jesus need to guide His perfected and glorified
heavenly Bride to fountains of waters of life?
Or is not the great crowd of Armageddon survivors here
on earth in dire need of having their tears wiped out and
their thirst quenched with the waters of life?
If we compare Revelation 7 with chapters 21 and 22, we
note the correspondences in imagery between the great
crowd,
who in 7:15 have God’s tent spread over them, and who
then also are referred to as ‘mankind,’ in 21:3, where
they will be His ‘peoples,’
with God in His tent residing among them in a temporary,
representative way by means of the New Jerusalem Bride
of Christ.
The terms ‘mankind’ and ‘peoples,’ plural, does not fit
the glorified Bride, and would also not be a fitting
designation for heavenly beings, which therefore points to
the great crowd as being here on earth as recipients of God’s
blessings.
Kind of makes one wonder how those not wanting to leave
all behind in exchange for Heaven, are nevertheless unhappy
with being the objects of God’s blessing here on earth.
Again, the wiping out of tears, as a euphemism for God’s
blessing, is employed in 7:17 as regards the ‘great crowd,’
as it is in 21:4 in relation to the 'peoples’ of 'mankind,’
who are thus identified as one and the same earthly class to
be blessed by the descending tent of the New Jerusalem
administration.
In both accounts [Re.7:14-17; 21:2-4] we have God wiping
out the tears of the ‘great crowd’ and ‘mankind,’ and guiding
them [as ‘the nations’ 22:2] to fountains of water of life,
something that can only apply to those living here on earth,
because the glorified Holy Ones would not need such healing
and education, because of having once for all been enlightened
at their anointing, and having already received the release from
their earthly bodies at the coming of Christ in glory.
A further indication that the ‘great crowd’ are in the earthly part
of God’s new temple is their “rendering Him sacred service day
and night” there,
because in the heavenly presence of God “NIGHT will be no more;”
hence the ‘great crowd' cannot be a heavenly group. (Re.22:5)
As to the ‘great crowd’ having their robes washed white in the blood
of the Lamb, this also does not mean that they are of the heavenly
Bride class,
because in chapter 22 verse 14, we see that their having done so merely
qualifies them to go “to the trees of life” here on earth, to which the
Bride (22:17) is inviting them to come during the 1000 year restitution
of all things spoken of by the prophets.
It is clear that the river and the trees of life in the earthly, tent-like
representation of the New Jerusalem, are not there for the curing
of the Bride, but for the ‘great crowd’ of the nations of mankind
here on earth.
Furthermore, the presence of bad people (21:27; 22:15) here on earth
during Christ’s millennial reign shows that a lot of those resurrected
from the previous millennia will not want to be reformed and participate
in the new faith-based society of righteousness,
although they will naturally not be allowed to take the place over,
or spread their noxious influence anywhere but among themselves.
Hence, by the end of the thousand years, although perfected,
the majority of mankind will again follow Satan and surround
the camp of the faithful ones, only to be finally wiped out
together with Satan and his hordes in the second death.
This scenario also explains how Christ will “go subduing in the
midst of [His] enemies” during His 1000 year parousia,
because, no matter how large the surviving ‘great crowd’ will be,
it will be dwarfed by the billions of savages to be resurrected
from the past 6000 years of spiritual darkness covering the earth.
God would never consign anyone to the second death just because
he was unfairly born into sin, which resulted from the willful
disobedience of another.
That is precisely why Christ HAD TO die.
Most people, throughout history, never had a chance to put faith in a
God who alienated them from birth, and subjected them to sin and
futility without asking their consent, and hence, potentially against
their will.
Therefore it is absolutely necessary to bring all mankind back here
on earth to experience what life would really be like, if Adam and
Eve had not sinned, before their eternal destiny can be decided in
righteousness, and that is what Christ’s millennial kingdom rule is
all about.
That the WT interpretation is very similar here, is altogether
irrelevant to the nature of truth, because all of us, including
the WT, are only gathering what fragments of truth we are
blessed with finding here and there.
The earthly hope is the default destiny for all mankind, and is
attainable to all those rejecting the coming mark of the beast,
while helping those being persecuted for denouncing the
incoming NWO as originating from Satan.

• Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-10 21:16:48

  Hi Ross,
  Besides the reasons I have stated above... I cannot read revelations and put the great crowd on the earth. Is there a scripture that you believe puts the great crowd on the earth?
  After reading your comment above.... How would you explain the following scriptures:
  Revelation 7:3,4 “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
  The 144,00 are sealed before the earth is harmed (revelation 16 speaks of armageddon )
  Revelation 15:2 And I saw what seemed to be a glassy sea mingled with fire, and those who come off victorious from the wild beast and from its image and from the number of its name standing by the glassy sea, having harps of God.
  The sea of glass is in the heaven before the throne....
  Revelation 4:1-6 After these things I saw, and, look! an opened door in heaven, …and, look! a throne was in its position in heaven, and there is one seated upon the throne. ..And before the throne there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal.
  Reve 21 is after these events and toward the conclusion of John's revelation.
  Whenever John speaks of the 144,000 and the great crowd the scenes are heavenly.
  I can be wrong... But I believe the 144,000, the "firsfruits", has already been sealed.I believe they are the jews and gentiles of the original Christian congregation before the apostles died and apostatsy set in the congregation.I believe only they fit the "virgin " passage that may represent spiritual purity.
  For the record I do believe that there is an earthly hope.

Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-10 21:37:39

"In both accounts [Re.7:14-17; 21:2-4] we have God wiping
out the tears of the ‘great crowd’ and ‘mankind,’ and guiding
them [as ‘the nations’ 22:2] to fountains of water of life,
something that can only apply to those living here on earth"
Why can this only apply to those living on the earth? " John says at Reve 22: 1 " Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb." The throne is in heaven.....

Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-10 22:04:25

(This is actually should have been included in the comment above.. On a mobile device.. I'm not sure why my comment spilt )
When I read that scripture in Revelation 21:3,4 I see it as a beautiful way of concluding the Bible .... there's a happy ending :) That scripture tells us that God will spread his tent over mankind and reside with them. I do not believe that God will literally reside with mankind. Instead the relationship that Adam had with God will be restored to mankind. He will reside with mankind as he did with Adam. The scripture at Gen 3:8 speaks of God walking thru the Garden... but because of Adam's sin God had to move Adam from his presence by putting him out of Eden. In Reve 21: 3, 4 He "resides" with the earth again.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-11 23:09:08

Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’
please refute, if you can, the scriptural reasons I gave in my previous post,
about the great crowd being an earthly class.
Well, in Revelation 7, we see the great crowd only AFTER the sealing of the
144000, and then only AFTER coming out of the great tribulation.
From this one could surmise that they are the bulk of the ‘twelve tribes
of Israel,’ from among whom the 144000 are sealed.
Although Scripture does not directly say so, this interpretation would actually
fit in well with Jesus’ promise that the 144000 would sit on twelve thrones,
judging the 'twelve tribes of Israel’ here on earth during the coming 1000
year re-creation kingdom.
Further, this view would lend support to the concept that God has,
as in the first century, so also today, actually not one, but two people,
namely,
His nominal people of Christendom, including the WT, and, then, the Body
of Christ in exile from it,
similar to the Jewish people in the first century and their apostate establishment, as separate, distinct and apart from the actual Body of Christ.
That way we would find the Father ‘calling out’ the members of
Christ’s Body from among the Christian establishment, including
the WT, today, who are depicted as the ‘twelve tribes of Israel’ in
a spiritual way.
Hence, the ‘calling out,’ which is the basic concept behind the
term ‘ecclesia,’ or Congregation, the term Paul used exclusively
to identify the Body of Christ,
actually constitutes a calling out from among God’s nominal
people today, just as it did for Christians in the first century,
rather than a calling out of the world, from which they were
already separated.
What, though, of those belonging to the 'twelve tribes of Israel,’
but who were not sealed?
Scripture seems to suggest that at least some of them form part of the
great crowd coming out of the great tribulation, for unknowingly doing
good to the members of Christ in exile during the future time of trouble
on Christianity, while also refusing to accept the mark of the beast,
along with those God-fearing survivors of a non-Christian or agnostic
background.
Seeing that there is already a heavenly hope, why do we need
to invent another one, for those who don’t ‘make it,’ as if the
identity of the adopted sons of God was not already foreordained
according to the good pleasure of God’s will in Christ Jesus,
but instead depended upon the performance of the one wishing
and running?
The purpose of God respecting the choosing depends on His call,
and our appropriation of it in faith.
Your idea that the 144000 are composed entirely of first century
Christians presupposes that at some arbitrary point at the turn
into the second century the anointing, and with it, the Christian
Congregation, which is the Body of Christ, ceased to exist.
We know that this cannot be true, because Jesus said that He would
be with His anointed disciples “ALL THE DAYS until the conclusion
of the system of things,” sometime soon.
Hence, Jesus, true to His word, continued to anoint and separate
His brothers from among the institutions of God’s nominal
Christian people, to go forth to Him outside the camp of
His organized people, to bear the reproach He bore as an
‘apostate’ and ‘blasphemer’ against God.
As to the river of life issuing from the throne of God in
Heaven, yes, that is what it says, but to where does it
flow, if not to where the ‘peoples’ of ‘mankind’ are
situated here on earth?
Its life giving waters are not for the Bride in Heaven, are
they?
Please read my previous post again and think about what
it implies.
But I entirely agree with the last paragraph of your previous
post, well put.

• Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-12 00:29:34

  Hi Ross
  Thanks for your reply :)I have read your post.
  Your reply discusses a wide range of what I believe to be different subjects. Before I can begin "refuting " points... I believe that it's best that you get an idea of what my basic views are on this subject.
  My thoughts about the identity of the 144,000 is steadily forming. I go back and forth between them being the remnant of faithful believing Jews(Romans 11 I believed strongly implies it)or the first century Christians.(Gentiles and Jews)
  I believe that all Christians are "anointed" by God spirit .Ultimately Jehovah will decide whether who lives in heaven or earth.
  Regarding the Great Crowd ...as I stated before... All the scriptural passages I have provided paints a heavenly scene.
  Remember where John is when he sees this vision.... heaven. [Revelation 4;1, 2]
  Reve 7:9 The Great Crowd is before the throne
  The angels and others are seen in heaven “before the throne” just as the Great Crowd. Revelation 4:10; 5:11, 14.
  Reve 19: 1 says, “After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah!*+ The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God.."
  I could be mistaken... But you seem to have not explained those scriptures. You say that it "appears"that they are before the throne but you do not say how they are on the earth. If John sees this vision in heaven... When does John start looking toward the earth based on the scriptures?
  The Elder prompts John to ask about the identity of the Great Crowd. Why didn't John not ask about the 144,000? Unless he understands the Large Crowd and the 144,000 to be the same?
  You cite Reve. 21:3,4 as proof that the Great Crowd is on the earth but I believe that this is only describing the covenant relationship with God and not to" mankind" in general.
  This scripture does not mention the Great Crowd at all unlike the scriptures I have quoted....
  If we could please start here... I could understand your view more clearly...
  .

  • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-12 00:33:32

    "Large crowd " should read "great crowd "

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-12 14:54:35

Hi Ross ,
I hope that you can follow my thoughts.... I am trying to become better at expressing them through writing .I am still growing in the “truth” so I am not married to any one concept.
I read your comment again and this stood out
“Seeing that there is already a heavenly hope, why do we need
to invent another one, for those who don’t ‘make it,’ as if the
identity of the adopted sons of God was not already foreordained
according to the good pleasure of God’s will in Christ Jesus,
but instead depended upon the performance of the one wishing
and running?”
I do want to clarify...I don’t believe that I am “inventing” another heavenly hope. I believe that there are two hopes... a Heavenly and an Earthly one. Of the heavenly group John sees a great crowd and 144,000. I will attempt to be brief. The interpretation of Revelation very difficult and complex however if you let the scriptures flow a picture emerges.
I stated before on another comment that I believe that the Great Crowd and the 144,000 are different ( and symbolic) and the yet there is strong scriptural support that they are both in heaven. The 144, 000 are selected from the 12 tribes of Israel ( Reve 7:4) . The Great Crowd in which “ no man is able to number” are selected from every nation and tribe and people and language". ( Reve 7:9). In Revelation 7:1-3 the angels are holding back the four winds of destruction( Armageddon) and an angel cries out not to harm the earth or the sea or the trees until the 144,000 are sealed in heaven .The Great Crowd are described as coming out of the Great tribulation and are likely faithful Christian martyrs who receive their heavenly reward to rule before the war of Armageddon. The wild beast executed them because of the “ witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.” (Reve 20 :4-6).
So there is one heavenly group. I believe the short answer is that 144,000 and the Great crowd are the same group at different temporal viewpoints. I think it is noteworthy that the scriptures only speaks of John “hearing” the 144,000 being sealed ( Reve 7:4). Then he “sees” a Great Crowd. (Reve7:9)Once I finally accepted Meleti’s scriptural viewpoint that we are all God’s adopted children and thus are all anointed by God’s spirit, the vision that Jesus gave John in Revelation became more understandable for me. In my mind, the GB uses the book of Revelation to justify their control and the two tier system .Our whole belief in the two tier system rests on the book of Revelation.
The debate on who’s in the first resurrection and the second resurrection goes way over my head. I have tried and tried . I don’t understand it . I can only hope for a My Book of Bible Stories version. Additionally , I found Meleti’s comment regarding the Great tribulation on another post : “You raise some very interesting points, GodsWordIsTruth. I too want to take a fresh, non-1914 look at John’s Revelation. I have been wondering about the great tribulation. Jesus definitely referred to the destruction of Jerusalem as the greatest tribulation of all time. But in what sense did he mean that? Tribulation is used almost exclusively (and I”m not sure about the “almost”) in the Christian Scriptures in reference to the congregation; to both good and bad elements within it. We think of it as destruction, but that is not the meaning of the word. It means stress, trial and test. A time of trial and testing came upon the true and faithful Christians once the great apostate, the man of lawlessness, was manifest. It continues down to this day. Rather than apply the single use of “great tribulation” in Revelation to the attack on Babylon the great, could it apply to the ongoing tribulation that Christians have been experiencing since the start of the last days in the first century?”
So if Meleti ever writes an article regarding the Great Tribulation my view may be adjusted.
In any case ....I reserve the right to scrap my view entirely and start back at the beginning :) I enjoy reading the book of Revelations it is an exciting and fast paced book .
I don’t want to die period. I would rather live through Armageddon and live forever on earth. However as I have stated before ultimately wherever Jesus sees fit for me to live is fine with me.
I hope this better explains my view ...

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-13 10:40:32

  There are indeed people who will live on earth, but is it correct to strive toward this as our goal? Even so arrogantly (or ignorantly, depends who) call it "hope" when there is but one hope?
  Exercise 1:
  Ephesians 4:4-5, modified from original to fit the two-hope doctrine:
  There are [two] bodies and one Spirit, just as you were called to [one of the two] hopes when you were called; one Lord, [two] faiths, [two] baptisms;
  Two bodies: the (1) little flock and (2) other sheep
  Two hopes: the (1) heavenly and the (2) earthly
  Two faiths: (1) Jesus died for my sins (anointed), (2) Jesus bless me through his kingdom, but did not directly die for my sins and is not my mediator (great crowd)
  Two baptisms: (1) baptism in name of father, son, Holy Spirit, and: (2) water baptism symbolizing dedication to Jehovah and in association with his organization on earth.
  Ephesians 4:4-5 (NIV), unmodified
  There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
  Exercise 2:
  Do you classify yourself as (pick one)
  a. true Christian
  b. Christian, but not in the true sense
  c. non-Christian
  Jesus Christ, as a role model for true Christians, died so others can live.
  An enemy shows up in the great tribulation, and he will kill either you or your anointed brother. It's your choice only.
  Scenario 1:
  I quote "I don't want to die period".
  Does that make make you a, b, or c?
  Scenario 2:
  You die, so he can live.
  Does that make you a, b, c?
  Exercise 3:
  The good news is that Paul thinks you are amazing!
  Galatians 1:6-9 (NWT)
  I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed.
  What Good News did Paul share with the Romans?
  To 'one hope' or to 'two hopes', that is the question.
  Conclusion:
  Some people will live on earth, but it won't be the true Christians.
  The Christian hope is a single one, heavenly.
  If you were baptized, you were baptized in this one hope.
  Romans 8: 14 (NIV)
  For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
  By context, if you are not led by spirit, you are led by flesh and thus cannot please God. (Read Romans 8 for context)
  If you produce fruits of spirit, then you are led by spirit.
  If you are led by spirit, you are a child of God.
  If you are a child of God, then what is your hope?

  • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-02-13 12:02:56

    Then again, if we simplify it through the principle of Occam's razor: Paul summed it up this way (1 Corinthians 2:14, 15) "But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man."

  • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-13 12:20:56

    Thank you for your awesome comment Alex.
    I follow your reasoning but I am conflicted (indoctrination maybe?) My question is … If I do not die and survive Armageddon how am I getting to heaven? Rapture? The “hope” we so frequently refer to is really the resurrection hope right ?
    IMO the OT is vague about life after death or resurrection to the earth. I am coming around to a belief that there is no scriptural basis for JW’s to separate those from the Old Covenant from New Covenant .(Matthew 8:11.12 Hebrews 11:13-16; compare Hebrews 11:8-10; Hebrews 12:22, 23 and 13:14.) I could be wrong. However, I do agree with you that that the Bible is clear that there is only “one hope” for Christians (Ephesians 4:4)

    • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-13 13:23:30

      You must be willing (emphasis on willing) to die in the flesh, your body is a sacrificial vessel. The flesh is like a seed, that, when the time is right, dies, and is changed into a plant. Jehovah promises a new body, a spirit body.
      I recommend you read 1 Co 15 read the whole chapter.
      1 Co 15:51, 52 (NWT)
      Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.
      Thus Jesus prayer becomes ours, to please let this cup pass us by, but not our will, but your will be done. We have to meditate on this often.
      If we are still alive during the last trumpet, those alive will be changed and their flesh body will die, raised up in a moment, a twinkling of an eye to an incorruptible spirit body.
      The great crowd, in my current understanding, are those on earth who did not have faith, but did good works toward Jesus brothers in the tribulation. The goats, those who persecuted the seed are destroyed. The great crowd are sheep who become justified based on works, not on faith. The temple itself will be spread over earth, thus they will share in kingdom blessings and worship in a holy place. Jehovah said he will dwell with mankind. Not literally, for the heavens cannot contain him, but who are we to say that what Jehovah then declares holy is not holy?
      The second group is what I call the 'unbelieving Thomas'. When he saw, he believed. I think many nonbeliever are good people and I think preaching destruction over them is just as anti-love as hellfire teaching. But surely Jesus said the reward is better for those who did not see, and yet believed.
      This is what we teach in service: works will save you, works for the anointed brothers will save you. While technically true, it is NOT the good news! It is NOT the hope, it is not teaching faith. We preach justification through works leading to friendship with God, instead of salvation through faith leading to sonship.

      • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-13 14:54:20

        Alex-
        I appreciate the spiritual readjustment. I am not afraid of death. I would lay down my life for my brother. However, I do not want to die and I do not necessarily want to go to Heaven. I do admit my desire may be a result of indoctrination. Yet, I have to fully appreciate the gift Christ has offered me at great cost.
        I haven’t looked at that chapter in 1 Corinthians since my “awakening”. I believe we may differ theologically on the Great Crowd‘s location. However we are in agreement that there is a group of God’s people in heaven and a group on earth.

        • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-13 17:43:56

          As vigorously as I defended the one hope for Christians,mother true Good news for today, I haven't yet given Scriptural backing for my current understanding on the Great Crowd. I'm about to give one line of argumentation, but I actually have more, perhaps another day.
          First, it needs to be observed that this group is different from the 144k, which is also called the bride of Christ in revelation.
          The members of this bride are also called living stones of the temple.
          1 Peter 2:4-6 (NIV)
          As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:
          “See, I lay a stone in Zion,
          a chosen and precious cornerstone,
          and the one who trusts in him
          will never be put to shame.”
          The role of this temple class is to be placed in the midst of people. The camp of
          Israel representing the world of mankind in need of justification. The tabernacle representing the seed by which mankind will receive blessings.
          (Leviticus 26:11-13)
          And I will place my tabernacle in your midst, and I will not reject you. I will walk among you and be your God, and you for your part will be my people. I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to be their slaves no longer, and I broke the bars of your yoke and made you walk with heads held high.
          Thus Israel is an antitype for the entire world of mankind. The first fruits of the harvest, the priesthood, offered a means for the rest of the harvest to be blessed. That is why there were two wheat harvests in the land of Israel—the Feast of Pentecost is the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Tabernacles is the latter wheat harvest.
          Now compare the scripture in Leviticus with these scriptures:
          (Ezekiel 37: 26-28)
          And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an eternal covenant with them. I will establish them and make them many and place my sanctuary among them forever. My tent will be with them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. And the nations will have to know that I, Jehovah, am sanctifying Israel when my sanctuary is in their midst forever.
          (Ezekiel 11:19, 20)
          And I will give them a unified heart, and I will put a new spirit in them; and I will remove the heart of stone from their bodies and give them a heart of flesh, in order that they may walk in my statutes and observe my judgments and obey them. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God.
          So the purpose of the Great Crowd is to become Gods People, and be blessed through the tent, made up of Jesus and his bride. It can help to print out all the scriptures from my post and highlight the terminology that is repeated. It is a stunning display of beauty in Gods Word.
          (Isaiah 40:22)
          It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
          (Isaiah 54:2)
          Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
          The tabernacle is to be spread over mankind, over the earth. This arrangement is one of justification. The wiping out of sin and putting on white robes. Thus justified, they are sheeplike, meek ones, and inherit the earth:
          (Psalm 37:11 KJV)
          But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
          (Matthew 5:5 KJV)
          Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
          (Isaiah 65: 17-19)
          17 “See, I will create
          new heavens and a new earth.
          The former things will not be remembered,
          nor will they come to mind.
          18 But be glad and rejoice forever
          in what I will create,
          for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
          and its people a joy.
          19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
          and take delight in my people;
          the sound of weeping and of crying
          will be heard in it no more.
          The New Jerusalem is the temple. Who are the beneficiaries?
          (Isaiah 65:1)
          “I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
          I was found by those who did not seek me.
          To a nation that did not call on my name,
          I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’
          It's a people who did not know Jehovah, nor asked for him.
          Now if we take another look at Revelation 21:3 we can see the pattern from scripture upon scripture re-emerge. God adopts mankind as his people.
          (Revelation 21:3)
          With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.
          (Revelation 7: 14-17)
          He said to me, These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood. 
          Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them. 
          They will never be hungry, neither thirsty anymore; neither will the sun beat on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
          The Great Crowd will be the justified camp of Israel. They will receive mercy when they had no mercy. And Jehovah will mercifully spread his tent over them.
          (Hosea 2:23)
          I will sow her like seed for myself in the earth,
          And I will show mercy to her who was not shown mercy;
          I will say to those not my people: “You are my people,”
          And they will say: “You are my God.”
          The great multitude has not appeared yet. They will come out of the tribulation. They are a people lost and scattered, and God will show them mercy. Notice how Isaiah calls them "the nations":
          (Isaiah 2)
          In the final part of the days,
          The mountain of the house of Jehovah
          Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
          And it will be raised up above the hills,
          And to it all the nations will stream.
           And many peoples will go and say:
          “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,
          To the house of the God of Jacob.
          He will instruct us about his ways,
          And we will walk in his paths.”
          For law will go out of Zion,
          And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
          (Micah 4:1-3)
          In the final part of the days,
          The mountain of the house of Jehovah
          Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
          And it will be raised up above the hills,
          And to it peoples will stream.
           And many nations will go and say:
          “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah
          And to the house of the God of Jacob.
          He will instruct us about his ways,
          And we will walk in his paths.”
          For law will go out of Zion,
          And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
          He will render judgment among many peoples
          And set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away.
          Perhaps it comes as a shock to us to consider this, after all we have been taught Jehovah is coming to destroy the nations. But Jehovah knows what he is doing and we need to have confidence in our king Jesus.
          (Isaiah 11:9)
          They will not cause any harm
          Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,
          Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah
          As the waters cover the sea.
          (Amos 9:13 )
          'Look! The days are coming,’ declares Jehovah,
          ‘When the plowman will overtake the harvester,
          And the treader of grapes, the one carrying seed;
          And the mountains will drip with sweet wine
          And all the hills will flow with it.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-13 22:11:31

            Just to clarify some points you make.
            The phrase, "Bride of Christ", doesn't appear in the Bible, but the concept does. We have:
            (Revelation 21:2) . . .I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
            (Revelation 21:9-11) . . .“Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God.. . .
            (Revelation 22:17) . . .And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, “Come!” and let anyone hearing say, “Come!” and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life’s water free.
            You will notice that no mention is made of the 144,000, so to say they are the bride appears to be a leap of speculation. The city of New Jerusalem is the Bride. Now if you can show that New Jerusalem is synonymous with the 144,000 we might be able to say that the Bride is the 144,000 in an if A = B and A = C then B = C equivalency.
            Additionally, how do you know the Great Crowd is different from the 144,000? It may be a subset of them. It may be them from a different point of view. The Great Crowd are depicted in heaven with the 144,000, so how can they be earthly? Additionally, what is the great tribulation? Until we can define that, we cannot fully define the great crowd.

            • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-13 23:08:03

              1) I'd think its a given who the bride of Christ is, but I'll make an effort to substantiate it in a follow up post .. Tomorrow I hope.
              2) "Additionally, how do you know the Great Crowd is different from the 144,000?"
              - It follows from the verse saying the great crowd could not be numbered, the 144k are by their nature, numbered. Even in symbolic sense you wouldn't contradict your symbolism in the same chapter of the bible.
              3) "The 144k may be a subset of the GC"
              - In my post I see the CG as the meek ones of the nations that were not Christians.
              Pre-kingdom they are unjustified.
              During the separation of sheep and goat, Jesus justifies them as I explained how.
              - The 144k were unjustified before their baptism into Christ death, they came out of the meek ones of the earth, so they are in fact a subset. So I agree with this possibility.
              4) It may be them from a different point of view.
              5) The Great Crowd are depicted in heaven with the 144,000, so how can they be earthly?
              You infer this for two reasons.
              a. One verse talks about "a" great crowd in heaven.
              There was also "a" great crowd following Jesus for his famous speeches, and they were on earth with Jesus. You'll agree this verse proves nothing on its own.
              b. Another verse mentions naos, which you say means they must be in heaven.
              I made two arguments against that conclusion:
              i. The bible is full of the same expressions that are used over and over, and they are used in context not of heaven, but earth. Read the scriptures I quoted again, but also the whole chapters.
              ii. Naos means sanctuary, more precise it refers to holy. This made sense because only the high priest could enter the tents holy area. But I show that the anointed become the tent with Jesus. They replace it. And then I show that the tent is spread over earth, so the argument is that even earthly residents can serve in the naos.
              I think my ii. Is just as valid an option as saying its in heaven. I don't defend courtyard interpretation of the WT, which is clearly false. But look at i. and earth becomes a clear winner for me. It is linked to "my people" and the fate of the nations.
              6) Additionally, what is the great tribulation? Until we can define that, we cannot fully define the great crowd.
              What follows is a summary which I present without proof, It's my working theory in progress. It is based on a lot of individual studies, including justification vs sanctification, tabernacle anti types, harvest and sacrifice anti types, ....
              Here goes:
              The tribulation is the culmination of the last days, where Babylon is destroyed and the anointed will be persecuted by the wild beast. It ends in the seventh trumpet, so you can say that the first six trumpets from revelation have something to say about what happens before that. (I have a lot of ideas but not dogmatic)
              On the seventh trumpet Jesus appears, the anointed are transformed and first resurrection happens, the nations weep for their lack of faith. The sheep and goat are separated. Those who persecuted the seed are the goat, receive second death. The rest are judged as sheep come out of the tribulation alive.
              The tent of god will be with mankind, the nations have been shown mercy but are only justified, nothing more. Meanwhile the earth is made into a paradise under kingdom rule. Several will not respect the arrangement, but no harm will come to those who seek protection under Gods mountain. Thus Jesus will rule amidst his enemies.
              At the end of the 1k year, The second resurrection happens, on earth, people created in justified state like Adam and into a paradise. (Rev 20) They will see the miracles and have a choice to make. Satan is released and gathers his nations against the people on earth that follow the kingdom, and the battle of gog and Magog, satan destroyed and end of appointed times follow.

              • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-13 23:46:49

                A symbolic number like 144,000 doesn't imply a fixed number. 12 and multiples thereof refer to divinely organized governmental arrangements. Using 144,000 instead of say, 144, could show that there are a great many individuals involved.
                But let's say for argument's sake that it does refer to an unknown, but fixed number. Let's say 10 million--purely for the sake of argument. Now let's say the great crowd is a subset of the 10 million. The 10 million are all the humans that make up the new Jerusalem including those who will not die, but be transformed. The great crowd are of this latter group because they live through the great tribulation and are gathered before Armageddon in fulfillment of Mat. 24:30. No one knows how many there will be. Let's say it turns out to be 2,383,281. So the unknown number turns out to be a subset of the known number.
                I'm not saying it will be this way. I put this forward to show that we cannot state categorically that the Great crowd is different from the 144,000 and cannot be a subset of them.
                I'm not so sure about the conclusion that the parable of the sheep and goats is related to the Great Crowd. For one, the Great Crowd have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. They know who he is and what they have to do to be saved. The sheep in the Sheep and Goats parallel show surprise that they are being saved, seemingly unaware that by helping Jesus brothers they were working for their salvation.
                The fact is that there is no way of knowing these things with certainty. There are just too many variables. Your thought that the great crowd are earthly could be right, but it could be wrong. We'll only really know when the prophecy reaches its fulfillment.

        • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-14 01:39:11

          Alex-
          We agree that there is an earthly group and a heavenly group.
          Rutherford taught that there is an earthly group.He also taught that the earthly group is "the great crowd".However, John sees the Great crowd in heaven. So the earthly group can't be the Great Crowd.
          If there is a scripture linking the "great crowd" John saw to the earth in any way... I have yet to read it. I understand your scriptural points on everything else.... I cannot get past this hurdle.
          A spirit being from the heavens invited John to heaven saying "Come up here, and I will show you the things that must take place. "(Revelation 4:1) John then explains to us who he saw before the throne in heaven.
          I've never understood the reasoning regarding the great crowd that was following Jesus while He was on the earth. Are we saying that crowd following Jesus had a earthly hope?
          These are the last recorded prophecies of Jesus that was given to him by God. (Revelation 1:1) God gives the Ressurected Jesus a revelation of what our future will be before the last apostle dies. (John)

          • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-14 09:07:02

            Rev 17 does not say who the great crowd is, it uses the unquantified "a great multitude", meaning it could be whatever great multitude of bodies you want it to be:
            Rev 17:1
            After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
            You can't use this to prove a thing...I could even say this talks about ant colonies. Then you respond, no because there is no ant colony in heaven! And I will respond: neither are the nations promised a heavenly hope in the bible, only those from the nations that are purchased for being with Jesus as kings and priests. Neither are ants as colonies promised such a hope.
            Jesus will rule over the nations.
            The great crowd of Rev 7 and 21 are called his people.
            But they weren't prior to the tribulation.
            You will understand it this way:
            A mixed company left Egypt through much tribulation. They all became Gods people when they gathered at Mt. Sinai, and God made a covenant with them. Likewise the great crowd of Rev 7 and 21 receive a different covenant for peace with a people, one of justification. (You need to be sanctified to go to heaven)
            The bible talks about this covenant:
            “And I will make a covenant of peace with them;+ it will be an eternal covenant with them. I will establish them and make them many+ and place my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My tent* will be with* them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.+ 28 And the nations will have to know that I, Jehovah, am sanctifying Israel when my sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”+ Ezekiel 37: 26-28
            The tent is the spiritual temple, Jesus and the anointed (in the new covenant).
            So the way to understand this, anointed+Jesus=priests, the first fruits making up the first fruits of the nation of Israel, then later, the nations become part of this nation as proselyte, by mediation of this priest, their sins are wiped out and become justified.
            Here you have the harvest of wheat. The first fruits are offered at the festival of Pentecost, the nations are blessed and gathered for the feast of the tent (tabernacle).
            One harvest, two groups, two times to gather them. Two purposes, two covenants.
            Now is still the time to still gather first fruits. Once Jesus comes, they will have been sealed and it's too late to enter the new covenant.
            Look up: "they will be my people" throughout the bible.
            Hosea 2:23
            I will say to those not my people:* “You are my people,”+
            And they will say [respond in acceptance]: “You are my God.
            How can God make the nations of the earth his people, unless he first has a temple through which they can benefit from Jesus blood? They need priests. Priests offer forgiveness of sin, NOTHING more.
            Washing your robe means nothing more than cleanness. It does not hold any promise to heaven (although it is a prerequisite to be able to approach what is holy).

        • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-02-14 03:56:09

          In the house of my Father there are many abodes. . .(John 14:2)

      • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-14 10:42:01

         Rev 17:1
        “After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God....You can’t use this to prove a thing…I could even say this talks about ant colonies.
        
         If we can’t call them ant colonies we can’t call them angels either.( Revelation 19:1, 2)
        “There was also “a” great crowd following Jesus for his famous speeches, and they were on earth with Jesus. You’ll agree this verse proves nothing on its own”.
        Matthew was not employing symbolic language nor is he prophesying about a “Great Crowd” as John is in Revelation . He ( along with the other apostles) are simply stating that there were a huge groups of people following Jesus around listening to him.( Mark 3:7-12 Mark 5:24 Luke 14:25 Matthew 4:25 John 6:5) JW’s in our bias use the term “great crowd” as a title for a group of people rather than a description. I believe we are reading way too much in the scriptures that make references to “great crowds” in the gospels to support our doctrine. If any of these references are prophecies and / or give us clues about the identity of the Great Crowd that John saw .... then according to our theology those crowds following Jesus around also had an earthly hope .
        Additionally, I do not believe that there is a “dual fulfillment” for the tribulation described in Matthew 24 :21.
        I believe we are far apart on the subject of the Great Crowd . We may have to agree to disagree......

        • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-14 12:35:47

          I think we can agree that:
          - the great crowd will appear out of the great tribulation
          - the great tribulation has not started yet
          - there is only one hope, one gospel, one baptism, one calling at this time
          - the great crowd will be part of Jahs people and receive 'tent' blessings

    • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-14 13:41:08

      -the great crowd will appear out of the great tribulation
      - the great tribulation has not started yet
      - there is only one hope, one gospel, one baptism, one calling at this time
      - the great crowd will be part of Jahs people and receive ‘tent’ blessings
      My view slightly differs. (the caps are for emphasis..I can’t italicize the words)
      -The great crowd will COME out of the great tribulation
      - The great tribulation MAY HAVE ALREADY started following the death of the Apostles
      -There is one hope ,one gospel , one baptism and one calling at this time
      - The Great Crowd ARE ALREADY a part of the Jah’s people and ALL of His people will receive ‘tent “ like blessings under a future covenant of God (Is. 40:22 ) In Revelation , John sees a "new heavens and a new earth" and New Jerusalem descending from heaven to earth. God will dwell with men and their tears, outcry, pain and death will be no more. God then makes all things new. (Rev.21:1-5)
      Are we getting closer :)

      • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-14 14:00:09

        “ALL of His people will receive ‘tent “ like blessings under a future covenant of God”
        This sentence is worded awkwardly.
        What I am trying to express is that eventually ALL of God’s people (The Heavenly group and the Earthly group) will have benefited from the ‘tent “ like blessings under a lasting ( and final) covenant of God. ( the heavenly group at one point lived on earth and was a part of “mankind” so the term “ mankind” is inclusive of both groups.)

Comment by AFRICAINE on 2014-02-13 02:52:33

Jacob vs Esau
Source:
http://ohr.edu/5327
First of all, while Esau had the potential to be a very righteous person, he wantonly chose a path of wickedness, and cunningly deceived Isaac into thinking he was the person that his father wanted him to be, and that he could have become if he wanted. But instead, according to traditional sources, he was a glutton, a murderer and an adulterer who "trapped his father with his mouth" by presenting himself as if he meticulously observed Isaac's ways.
This is why Isaac thought to bestow the blessing upon Esau. But Rebecca, exemplifying what the Sages describe as a woman's keen judgment of character, saw the truth about her wicked son Esau. She therefore understood how dangerous it would be to have such blessing in the "hands of Esau", and sought to secure the blessing for Jacob, who deserved it and would use it properly.
According to one explanation, this blessing was earmarked for the first-born, so that when Esau gluttonously despised the birthright and sold it to Jacob, the right to the blessing was transferred to Jacob. Jacob didn't tell Isaac of the sale because he did not want to make Esau look bad, nor did he want to hurt his father over Esau's despising of the birthright. But Esau knew that he forfeited the blessing and that it really belonged to Jacob, and yet he continued to deceive his father and went along with his plan to bless him. So it was not Jacob that was deceiving his father to get Esau's blessing, but rather Esau's deceiving him to get Jacob's.
So why didn't Rebecca or Jacob intervene by revealing this directly to Isaac; why did they contrive a deception of their own? Because at that point, time was of the essence, and if they had revealed the truth of Esau's ongoing deception of Isaac, he, convinced of Esau's sincerity, clearly would have consulted with him about their accusations. At that point, Esau would very likely have murdered Jacob, which he ultimately intended to do, and which was the reason Jacob fled to Rebecca's family. So Jacob was justified in protecting himself through cunning that which Esau intended to steal from him through cunning.
According to another explanation, the blessing was not necessarily earmarked for the first-born, but rather it was intended by Isaac to be for Esau. But this was because, even in Isaac's understanding of the two brothers, Esau was more interested in this-worldly matters while Jacob was focused more on spirituality. Accordingly, Isaac intended to give Esau the blessing for material bounty in order that he would help support Jacob's Torah study, which would in turn benefit Esau as well. He thought that the brothers would maintain this mutually-beneficial relationship, as did later the tribes of Issachar and Zebulun. Rebecca knew that that was the farthest thing from Esau's mind, but rather he would take the blessing for himself and not share any of it with Jacob, effectively strangling the life-line of Torah. She therefore had Jacob "dress-up" as Esau, meaning she equipped him to be involved in this-worldly pursuits, in order to receive material blessing for the purpose of supporting and studying Torah.

Comment by AFRICAINE on 2014-02-13 02:56:37

Of course the account of Jacob and Esau appears to be so pre-determined. Maybe someone could assist me on that score.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-13 09:20:59

  Cain was the firstborn yet Abel proved righteous and had Jehovah's favor.
  Esau was the firstborn and yet Jacob had Jehovah's favor.
  Jacob had the blessing of the firstborn by spiritual merit, and was renamed Israel.
  As a nation, Israel was the firstborn but - by large - squandered their inheritance.
  Who ALWAYS gained Jehovah's favor? Spiritual first fruits.
  Do we cherish our spiritual inheritance in heaven, or are we like Esau and mind the things of the flesh? Where our treasure is, our heart will be. (Let the reader use discernment).
  Luther, Lectures on Galatians, 1535. [9] "Upon the Israel of God."
  Here Paul attacks the false apostles and the Jews, who boasted about their fathers, their election, the Law, etc. (Rom. 9:4-5). It is as though he were saying: "The Israel of God are not the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel but those who, with Abraham the believer (3:9), believe in the promises of God now disclosed in Christ, whether they are Jews or Gentiles."
  -
  John Calvin, Upon the Israel of God.
  This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church.
  -

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-13 18:44:53

Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’
thanks for explaining your position a little more; I also should explain
the basis for my conclusions a bit better, so you can see where I am
coming from.
You mention the connection that the abuse by the GB of the ‘rank and file’
has to its view of the ‘two hope’ interpretation of Scripture,
although, whatever the bad results are to the ‘earthly sheep,’ pales into
insignificance when compared to the indignities inflicted by the GB
through the ‘earthly class elders’ upon, what is supposed to be, their
OWN spiritual brothers of the 12000 odd anointed who,
although being members of Christ’s Body, are being subjected to
spiritual gentiles, mere farmers and vine dressers, who are there
to shepherd their FLOCKS, NOT the priests of Jehovah, which
these 12000 anointed are supposed to be!
Please read Isaiah 61:5,6, and think about it.
It is tempting to view the ‘two hope’ interpretation as the problem,
but since the abuse is worse towards the 12000 non-GB anointed,
than those of the ‘earthly hope,’ there is clearly another motivation
and agenda at work here.
Most lies are such ‘merely’ by virtue of their being half-truths.
Yes, the Bible clearly teaches a heavenly and an earthly hope,
but the NT, and its age, is entirely devoted to select the members
of Christ’s Body, and, therefore, does not concern itself with
‘collecting’ those who have the common ‘default’ hope of
earthly life.
The WT, in trying to be smart, and wanting to differentiate itself
from ‘apostate Christendom,’ is running ahead of God by courting
fleshly ‘paradise soon’ Christians,
just as third world outreach Churches are attracting ‘rice Christians,’
and fundamentalist prosperity gospel Churches are producing ‘bling
Christians’ and rabid ‘Zio-nazis.’
The ‘two hope’ system does not depend on the material in Revelation,
as can be seen by Paul’s remark that the ‘holy ones,’ ‘partakers of the
heavenly calling,’ are the ones to whom God has ‘subjected the
INHABITED EARTH to come.’
Revelation merely provides some details as to how the New Jerusalem
will bless and restore the majority of mankind to pre-fall perfection
during the 1000 years.
The whole of Christianity is predicated upon God’s promise to
Abraham: By means of your seed all nations will be blessed.
It does not say ‘seeds,’ as in the case of two or more heavenly
groups, but, ONE, who is the Christ, composed of all those
baptized into His death, to be also raised up with Him in
glory on the last day.
There is no ‘destiny smorgasbord’ where Christians can pick
and chose, patch and match, what they would like to apply to
them and what not.
How do you think your host would react when, upon inviting
you to an exclusive meal, he finds you poking around on
your dish, picking out the things you like, while scrapping
the rest?
There are plenty of beggars on the 'roads and fenced-in places’
to replace those who have been invited, but who don’t seem to
appreciate the privilege.
Those who just bought a 'yoke of oxen' in need of 'inspection,'
have, of course, a tough decision to make.
Responding to the call is serious business.
There is no obligation on anyone to become a Christian,
but those called, need to thoroughly count the cost in
advance,
and be prepared to leave all behind, including their own
souls, for a place of service in Heaven, because failure
is not an option.
Now, as to your point about the 144000 perhaps being
physical Jews, due to Romans 9-11, please tell me the
entity that “the full number of people of the nations has
[to] come in [to],” in order for “all Israel” to be saved?
If the entity were physical Israel, Paul would be saying
that a “full number of people of the nations” needed to
convert to Judaism, so as to effect the salvation of “all
Israel,”
which would make Paul a hypocrite, by preaching Judaism
again instead of Christ.
Hence, Paul speaks about SPIRITUAL Jews and spiritual
Israel, as being the Heaven bound seed of Abraham made
up of ‘144000‘ members of the 12 tribes of spiritual
Israel.
Hence, the ‘144000‘ cannot be physical Jews, but only
spiritual ones, in line with all other teachings of Paul,
and elsewhere throughout the NT.
You are right that all Christians are anointed, because the
term frankly means exactly that, so that those who are
of an earthly persuasion are technically not Christians.
But due to common usage the truth of the matter is lost
on most people; too bad, because it changes nothing of
the reality.
As to the great crowd ‘standing before the throne of God,'
the same scene is also presented in Matthew 25, where
both sheep and goats are standing before the throne -
are we therefore to conclude that the goats are given
immortal spirit bodies, in order to be able to withstand
the glory of God, so as to literally appear in Heaven before
the judgment throne,
only to be judged worthy of destruction, then, being
stripped again of their immortality, in order to be able to
die, and all this only in order to satisfy some people here
on earth who want to take the ‘standing before the throne’
literally?
Would you really want to be the one pushing this sort of
interpretation on the last day?
Another detail of distinction between the anointed and
those of the great crowd, is that whereas the latter are
surviving out of every nation, tribe, people and tongue,
the anointed are actually BOUGHT out of every tribe,
tongue, people and nation, and are then additionally also
sealed OUT OF the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel.
If the great crowd of Revelation 7 were not identical with
the ‘peoples’ of ‘mankind’ in chapter 21 and 22,
and the former were in Heaven, then God would have TWO
tents in His temple, one for each group of those supposed
to be blessed by the Bride, the New Jerusalem,
which would then have TWO separate operations of blessing
going on at the same time, one in Heaven for the 'heavenly’
great crowd, and one here on earth the those living there;
pretty confusing, isn't it?
Is that really the picture Scripture is trying to convey, or is it
not simply saying that the great crowd are those on earth here,
who will be blessed by the seed of Abraham from Heaven?
This is as far as I got yesterday in replying to your post,
but I didn't get around to posting it; so from here on I
address your subsequent posts on this subject.
Now, as to the hope of the OT ‘saints’ and the NT saints,
Matthew 12:12 clearly shows that the heavenly hope
only came as a result of Christ’s death, resurrection and
pouring out of the indwelling Spirit of Sonship into
the hearts of born anew, come of age sons of God of
the New Creation, who were baptized into Christ’s
death and will also be raised up with Him in glory
at His second coming on the clouds of Heaven.
Hebrews 11 verse 40 simply means that the perfecting
of the OT ‘saints’ is contingent upon, and therefore has
to be subsequent to, the perfection, or glorification, of
the anointed sons of God.
The ‘ancient worthies’ were simply looking forward to
the promised rule of the seed of Abraham, without knowing
that the administration would be from the spirit realm by
immortals bought from the earth, and including people other
than the physical seed of Abraham.
Instead of being Christ’s forefathers, they will become His
sons during the kingdom reign, just as promised to them
in Psalm 45:16.

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-13 19:59:47

  Ross- I appreciate your response and respect your view. However , I cannot see the scriptures the way that you do. So for clarity...you believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven? John says that those in the first resurrection will rule as kings and priests at Reve 20:4-6.Is the total of those in the first resurrection around 144,000?I am most interested in your explanation of Revelation 19:1.......

  • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-13 20:06:00

    GodswordisTruth,
    144k may be symbolic..
    Did you see the extensive response I made here
    http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8545
    I really would enjoy some feedback

    • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-13 20:29:28

      How do you post links to comments made on this site? I can't figure that out...
      I will take a look at your comment...I agree that the 144,000 could be symbolic.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-13 18:48:25

Hi Alex,
I agree with you on there being the ‘one hope’ in which Christians
are saved, which view then calls into question that those who have
been made to hope in an earthly future are somehow saved in it.
Now while I agree that it is regrettable and quite telling of those
shutting up Heaven for others as being indicative of not actually
wanting to enter this hope themselves,
that nevertheless, anybody truly anointed by God’s Spirit, will not
be dissuaded by flesh and blood from hearing and accepting the
call of God, and following the Lamb no matter where He goes.
So, although no one seems to be able to get saved in an earthly hope
as such, it still is the default outcome and destiny for those not anointed,
whose conscience will judge them on the last day as to how well they
have lived up to the knowledge of truth they have received as individuals,
minus allowances for their inherited sin, which is covered by their faith
in Christ.
Not believing in a destiny for which one has not been called
cannot be held against anyone; but accepting a gift not offered
to one, or wanting to negotiate the terms of the gift, are
definitely suspect.
As it is written: Tax collectors and harlots [atheists and agnostics?]
will enter into the kingdom of God, while the sons are thrown
outside weeping and gnashing their teeth.
So now is the time to believe, because even Thomas couldn't say
he believed AFTER he saw the hands of Christ!

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-13 19:01:14

  Ross I made an extensive post:
  http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8545
  Could you review it carefully and tell me what you think?
  Also I mentioned Thomas in this post:
  http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8527
  I'd like to know if we have differences or are on the same thought.
  I haven't met others yet who see it 'exactly' this way. It's a pretty novel consideration as far as I know, because I never saw anyone make the case and I try to read everything I can.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-13 22:54:06

Hi Alex,
you said that. QUOTE: “Perhaps it comes as a shock to us to consider
this [that ‘peoples’ and ‘nations’ will survive Armageddon], after all
we have been taught Jehovah is coming to destroy the nations. But
Jehovah knows what he is doing and we need to have confidence
in our king Jesus.” UNQUOTE
That is a good point, and shows that there will be a considerable
minority of people from all nations who will not be following
the incoming NWO beast with admiration,
just as Zechariah also says: “And it must occur [that], as regards
everyone who is LEFT REMAINING OUT OF ALL THE
NATIONS that are coming against Jerusalem...” Zec.14:16
“And to him that conquers and observes my deeds down to
the end I will give authority over the nations and he shall
shepherd the people with an iron rod so that they will be
broken to pieces like clay vessels, the same as I have
received from my Father.” Re.2:26.27
“For the day of vengeance is in my heart...and I kept stamping
down peoples in my anger, and I proceeded to make them
drunk with my rage and to bring down to the earth their
spurting blood.” Is.63:3-6
I just noticed your references, which I will read now and
comment on later, thanks.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-13 22:54:57

Hi AFRICAINE,
that is an excellent explanation of what is likely to have
been going on behind the scenes in the case of Jacob
and Esau, and a lot better argued than my comment
at the start of this thread; well spotted, and thanks for
sharing it here.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-13 23:17:24

Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’
yes, those of the first resurrection would be the ‘144000,’
which number could be literal, or symbolic, or both.
The ‘great crowd’ in Revelation 19 is in Heaven, but
cannot be identical with the ‘great crowd’ in chapter 7
because they praise Jah for just having avenged the
blood of His slaves at the hand of the great harlot,
which happens BEFORE the battle of Armageddon, through
which the ‘great crowd’ of chapter 7 has not yet passed at
that point;
hence the ‘great crowd’ in chapter 19 can only be a crowd
of angels, so don’t be misled by the similarity in terms,
it is the context that tells you which is which.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-13 23:30:15

  You are presupposing that the great tribulation is Armageddon. There are reasons to suppose that it comes before. Mat. 24:29 for instance. Plus the fact that the judgment comes before Armageddon. If the GT is the destruction of Babylon the great, then in the interval between its end and Armageddon's start you have those who pass through the GT, are judged worthy, and are taken to heaven. The 144,000 could refer symbolically to all resurrected Christians while the great crowd refers to those alive at the time of the great tribulation. These ones differ from the rest in that they are not resurrected, but changed in the twinkling of an eye.

  • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-14 00:56:30

    Meleti, the anointed don't get resurrected until after the tribulation, but are caught up in the clouds together with the ones of the generation who did not pass away. (1 Thess 4) The bible says they go up together. There is a single body of sealed ones. In fact, check Matthew 24:31 and compare with Rev 7:1. Make a study on the last trumpet, and you will see what I mean.
    The society only says anointed are in heaven already because they believe the coming was around 1914. It's still in the future....
    On a side note, I'm contemplating that Armageddon might come after the 1000 years, when satan will be destroyed. So I can totally split the GT events from that.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-14 08:52:46

      I concur. I wrote a post on it a couple of years back.

• Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-14 02:05:34

  Ross-
  What scripture can we use to support that John is saying that the Great crowd that he's been talking about all along are now the angels in 19:1,2? Unless John is trying to be incredibly confusing when explaining what he saw in this vision ...
  He mentions seeing all different kinds of spirit creatures/beings throughout Revelation and in 7:11 he tells us that he saw angels too. So the angels, who are in heaven, can also be referred to as the Great Crowd? John does not say that.
  The Elder already told us who the great crowd are...they are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb .(7:15)

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-13 23:50:56

Currently, you can't. We're going to try to give enhanced editing features to everyone.

Comment by In Need of Grace on 2014-02-14 12:47:44

I was cringing in the meeting yesterday during the second talk between the two sisters. An older sister playing bible student claimed she had the heavenly hope and then a first time sister talked her out of it with scripture, and of course the entire congregation clapped..

• Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-14 13:40:23

  In Need of Grace,
  This to me sums up one of the most fundamental problems with our message. We are trained to talk people out of the New Testament Christian hope.
  

  Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in. (Matt 23:13)

  
  Even if the Rutherford "two Christian hopes" doctrine was real, what right would we have to talk people out of one hope or the other? At best we should only open their minds to the possibilities as laid out in scripture. But to varying degrees we have been mentally conditioned to judge those who expect and desire to dwell with Christ as misinformed, deluded or insane unless they conform to some man-made expectations.
  

  For not the way man sees [is the way God sees], because mere man sees what appears to the eyes; but as for Jehovah, he sees what the heart is. (1 Sam 16:7)

  
  Apollos

  • Reply by In Need of Grace on 2014-02-14 14:42:18

    Exactly Apollos
    Ever since I accepted the truth about my sonship and Jehovah as my Heavenly Dad right now and not in a distant future, I feel immensely happy about this and it saddens me that we have all been conditioned otherwise.
    I mustered up the courage this week to speak to an elder about this telling him my resolve I would parttake. He was actually really happy for me. I asked him if he ever felt this way and he admitted he often thought about it. He said he sometimes thought we might be conditioned to believe one hope or the other. I was so happy I was able to talk to him about this ;) I believe that sincere bible students will come to this conclusion sooner or later, and I hope I can help many to find this gem.
    That being said I've seen reactions on the opposite spectrum too. A brother in my field service group started talking about the heavenly hope with me, and an elder picked up on it. He said oo I would never want to go to heaven. I felt really bad in his stead..In essence he didn't even seem to appreciate that wonderful gift.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-14 19:17:53

Alex,
OK, I just finished re-reading your comments, which had inspired
my previous posts, to see if I had overlooked anything in them,
because you have so many details in agreement with the way I see
things, that they cannot but be derived from our common Source.
I assume that your reference to the ‘last trumpet’ implies you are
talking about the one in Matthew 24:31, immediately after the
end of the great tribulation,
when the ‘harpazo’ is taking place, because those sleeping in Jesus
will have to wait until then, in order to be caught up TOGETHER
WITH us, who survive to the coming and subsequent parousia
of the Lord.
Your comment about the justification by works, instead of faith,
of the ‘great crowd’ of earth-bound survivors, certainly seems
to be a reality that is hard to deny,
for if it is faith, then it is ‘second hand,’ in those who claim to
represent Jesus; but if they do not have a personal relationship
with Him, how on earth can they tell that these ‘Christs,’ or,
anointed ones they are following now are not imposters?
Who would you rather risk your life putting faith in, Jesus Christ,
whom you can only take by His word recorded in the Bible,
or those who claim to be His representatives, but are at odds
with His clear written instructions, and especially since He
said not to have any mediating agency other than Himself as
the sole representative of the Father, a role which He takes
very serious and personal?
I, for one, would rather take my chances with Christ, than
rely on earthling man in this matter of eternal life or death.
A faith that is measured and mediated by the seeking of
approval and good standing with men claiming to represent
God, can probably not qualify as a saving means,
for if righteousness is attainable through a good standing
with the organization, faith has been made useless, and
God’s promise has been abolished.
Thank you for helping me think this through a bit more;
perhaps there will come a time in the future when the
organization has totally apostatized, when people will
be forced to have direct faith in Christ in order to come
out of the great tribulation without being wiped out by
the wrath of God on those who ‘did not believe the Good
News’ about Christ; for salvation by works can hardly be
described as GOOD news.
I know 2Thes.1:8, which I just alluded to uses the word
‘obey,’ rather than ‘believe,’ which I used,
but verse 10 specifies ‘exercising faith’ as the means of
salvation, hence, not having faith is actually disobedience,
or lawlessness,
as can be seen in Hebrews 3 verse 18 and 19, where lack of
faith is equated with disobedience, which is lawlessness.
As to whether righteousness will be attained by means of
faith or works during the 1000 years, will be an interesting
question to contemplate;
I would say that true faith always results in good deeds,
while works, no matter how good, can easily be motivated
by ulterior considerations, or be done in bad faith.
The biggest problem we have in the realm of Christian
profession is people doing the right thing with wrong
motivation, which reflects badly on God as to the kind
of person their worship implies Him to be.
So maybe that is what Jesus meant when he said: Happy
are those believing without seeing, because their motives
are pure.
It might really take a 1000 years to turn even a loyal servant
of God into a son; and most people would never be able to
attain that distinction, even if they were allowed to live for
a million years.
Perhaps a son at heart really needs to be born, rather than merely
converted.
Faith glorifies God, while works glorify man.
Faith is a positive motivating force, defining, and issuing from,
a pure heart, imputing goodness to all it comes in contact with,
while works are only the outward manifestation of a means to
an end, whatever it takes to accomplish an objective, regardless
of the motive for it.
I like, and agree with, your distinction between justification
for earthly life and sanctification for going to Heaven.
It looks very much like we are on the same page; but I am
looking forward to your sharing of more details about the
things you have been given to understand, and please feel
free to tell me if I seem off track or overly obtuse in what I
say.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-14 19:43:04

  Hi Ross,
  About Divine Justice.
  Basically I believe in fairness, that everyone should get the same treatment.
  The measuring rule for eternal life is this: "Prove loyalty under justified condition."
  The exception is direct and will-full persecution or opposition to God, his spirit, his purpose, anointed. In this case it is "fair" enough to assume such person, even when justified, would not prove loyal.
  Here I will demonstrate how I believe Jehovah's justice operates EQUALLY for all :
  1. Adam was created in justified condition. This allows him to approach God.
  2. Adam was NOT granted eternal life by default. He needed to prove loyal before gaining access to the Tree of Life.
  3. By faith, Abraham became justified (righteous). He remained loyal unto death. Thus it might be possible for him to receive the first resurrection and eternal life.
  4. By faith, Christians (remember, there is no such thing as a non-anointed Christian) are justified in life. If they remain loyal unto death they will receive the first resurrection and eternal life.
  5. Those who are non-Christian and are sheep-like during the Great Tribulation, will be judged by Jesus as righteous, thus obtaining justification. This gives them the same privilege as Adam, to prove their loyalty.
  6. Those who died in a non-justified state, will receive the second resurrection. Upon resurrection, they will be in justified condition, like Adam.
  7. After the 1000 years Satan is released and the justified creation on earth will have a chance to prove loyal in justified condition.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-14 19:24:44

He Meleti,
thanks for raising your concerns, I will try to address some
of them:
Revelation 5 tells us about ‘persons’ having been ‘bought’
out of ‘every tribe, tongue, people and nation’ to form a
kingdom of kings and priests over those ‘on earth.’
Then, in Revelation 14, we see the 144000 as being ‘bought’
from ‘the earth’ and from among ‘mankind,’ which means
that these priests were once ‘of the earth,’ the same ‘earth’
that is composed of ‘every tribe, tongue, people and nation,’
over which they will rule as priests and kings,
which tells us that all those not ‘bought’ out of the ‘earth,’
will remain there on the ‘earth,’ to be ruled over by those
‘bought’ from the ‘earth’ as ‘kings and priests.’
Now, in all of Revelation, we find that only one group is
‘bought,’ or, purchased and redeemed from mankind, and
it is not the great crowd, but only the '144000' and the 'kings
and priests,' which are therefore synonymous.
Further, if we look at the term ‘bought’ elsewhere in the NT,
we find it used in phrases like ‘you were bought with a price,’
or, ‘disowning even the Owner that bought them,’ in reference
to the anointed, but never in connection with those of an
earthly future.
What is more, the 144000 are referred to as ‘firstfruits’ in
Revelation 14, and we know from numerous NT Scriptures
that Spirit born Christians are such ‘firstfruits,’ and also
called 'kings,’ 'priests’ and 'bride’ in numerous places,
all of which conclusively links the 14000 of Revelation 7
and 14 with the ‘bride’ and ‘curing of the nations’ in
chapters 21 and 22; I cannot see how anyone could miss this,
although I can understand and sympathize with the perceived
need, and misplaced desire for doing so.
The concept of having a sub category of earthlings in Heaven
needing to be perfected by the Bride, who then also has to
put its tent over other earthlings here on earth, to shepherd
and lead to the waters of life as well, just doesn't make any
sense, nor is it implied anywhere in Scripture, if we read it
without an agenda or preconceived ideas.
Heaven is a Holy Place - how can people in need of perfecting
even enter there, without being consumed by the Presence of
God and the Glorified Christ, who ‘dwells in unapproachable
light,’ and ‘whom NOT ONE of MEN has seen or CAN see?’
The 144000 Holy Ones, are the ONLY men ever to see the
Father just as He is, and could not do so unless they were given
the Divine Nature - what does that tell us about a ‘secondary’
class of humans wanting to go to Heaven in order to be
perfected there?
To see the Father in Heaven they need to have the Divine Nature,
so what need would they then have of God’s tent being spread
over them in order to be further blessed by the Bride of Christ?
If you are in the Nature of God, how could you be perfected
to become something better than Him?
I just don’t get it.
As to the great crowd having their robes washed in the blood
of the Lamb, the symbolism plainly shows that putting new
clothes on does not change the person underneath, which is
what needs to happen to them during the 1000 years here on
earth.
Yes, they will do good to Christ’s brothers unknowingly, which
clearly tells us that the WT anointed cannot be Christ’s brothers,
because JW’s KNOWINGLY do good to them, and that they
themselves therefore also do not even qualify to become part
of the great crowd at present,
because the REAL brothers of Christ are ‘outside the camp’ of
God’s established place of worship, nominal Christianity -
including the WT - having gone forth to where Christ is,
and bearing the reproach He bore as an apostate and
blasphemer of God.
When the ‘incoming kingdom’ arrives, the witnesses will
follow it with admiration, as the fulfillment of the kingdom
of God on earth, just as they have been conditioned to
receive the kingdom that finally solves mankind’s problems
as necessarily originating from Him.
Hence, anyone then standing up and denouncing the ‘kingdom
of God,’ which finally united mankind under the ‘prince of
peace,’ and solved the world’s problems,
would of course be totally unrecognizable as a brother of
the real Christ, especially since such individuals will be
viewed as hated apostates by the witnesses, and people
of all the nations, for exposing their new world paradise
as a fake originating from Satan,
so that only those truly having a love of the truth will
be able to see through this fake kingdom, which will
deceive the whole inhabited earth, as a test, the operation
of error, the lie that only God’s kingdom can solve the
problems of mankind.
That way the true brothers of Christ will be unknown
right down into the new world kingdom, by all ‘paradise
soon’ Christians, and all the rest of those dwelling on the
earth.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-14 23:32:37

  I'm assuming that you are linking the Great Crowd to the sheep in the Sheep and Goats parable. I say that because of the link you make to them as doing good to Jesus' brothers unknowingly. If I have drawn the right conclusion, then your mention that they will need to be perfected over the course of 1,000 years seems to be in conflict with that Jesus says about the sheep in that parable. You see, the goats go off to everlasting cutting-off and the sheep to everlasting life. The sheep are termed "righteous ones". (Mat. 25:31-46)
  If God judges a person as a goat and consigns him to everlasting cutting-off, we are talking about a final judgment. It is irrevocable. Likewise, the judgment of the sheep as righteous is irrevocable and they are given everlasting life. Not a chance at everlasting life should they continue faithful for the next 1,000 years. Therefore the sheep are given perfection in the fullest sense of the word, being both sinless and judged as righteous by God.
  This would appear to make the sheep of this illustration incompatible with your current interpretation of who the great crowd are.
  I think one thing we have to nail down before we can attempt to speak conclusively about the identity of the Great Crowd is what is the great tribulation since they are identified as coming out of it. It is interesting that the 144,000 are not shown as coming out of the great tribulation.

  • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-14 23:54:41

    I think your on track to understanding our idea!
    Notice how the sheep are blessed as a group.
    Like the nation Israel before, as long as they benefit from the priestly sacrifice they are justified before Jehovah. THIS is why there is so much emphasis all over the bible on the tent or temple being in their midst.
    The consequence of rejecting this arrangement deserves the second death, even if they were previously in a justified position with eternal life in sight.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-14 20:43:40

Alex,
on the ‘When does the first resurrection occur’ thread, you just
now asked Meleti the following question, which I would like
to address here, in order to keep things on the ‘same page,’ so
to speak,
QUOTE: “Where does Matthew talk about Armageddon? Only
mention is the GT. Can you prove the judgement over the goats
by Jesus is the same as Armageddon? UNQUOTE
Now, that is an interesting question, but I think that 2Thes.1 can
help us in this regard,
because Paul says there that the great tribulation on us will at
a certain point be turned against our persecutors, the worshipers
of the Revelation 13 beast,
at the revelation of Christ from Heaven with His powerful angels,
to repay tribulation to them in a flaming Armageddon fire of
judicial punishment to everlasting destruction,
as He brings vengeance on those not knowing God, and those who
do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, if the coming of Christ on the clouds of Heaven immediately
after the great tribulation with his angels to collect together the
chosen ones scattered by that persecution, as told in Matthew 24,
is not the revelation of Christ as per 2Thes.1, then WHAT IS?
Matthew 25 has Christ ‘arriving,’ which is a synonym for the
‘coming’ of chapter 24; hence the ‘goats’ are those who
persecuted the holy ones during the great tribulation, to
now receive their eternal Armageddon judgment and
destruction.
I hope to give my take on the great tribulation soon.
This is an interesting discussion we are having here, thoroughly
enjoyable and productive, thanks everybody.
Just a quick reply to your view of God’s justice, point (3);
I don’t think that Abraham will receive the first resurrection,
which is to heavenly life,
because he could not have been born of the Spirit, since even
Christ did not have the ‘Nature of God’ at that time to give,
prior to His death in faithfulness.
Although the quality of faith which Abraham had, is the same
as ours, more was needed for attaining the heavenly part of the
promise, since the resurrection Spirit of Christ to the adoption
as sons of God had not yet been able to be given in his day.
I will need to think some more about this issue, and give you
my slant on God’s righteousness, which is one of my major
interests.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-14 21:56:25

  To clarify my position on Abraham. I did not say he "will" go to heaven. It does not follow from my argument. I did say it "might be possible" that Abraham could receive "the first resurrection" from the perspective of Divine justice. So I believe if Jehovah willed him to receive it, he could, even outside of the new covenant.
  There are other factors at play, which might exclude him from receiving this lot.
  For example, what happens with the justified great crowd that is also faithful at the battle of Gog and Magog? They will also qualify from the perspective of Divine justice to go to heaven because they have proven loyal in justified state, but WILL they?
  That is entirely up to Jehovah. I don't know of a promise or covenant for this group of people in the Scriptures, so all I can say is that I don't know. The window might be closed on entering the heavens, or Jehovah opens new scrolls at that time.
  One interesting thought is a word study on "lot". To Daniel the angel said: "you will stand up for your lot". It means that Jehovah has a certain inheritance in mind.
  Also the tribes of Israel received land according to their lot. In their case obedience led to blessings of much offspring, more offspring meant more land for the tribe.
  So I think the actions people do in life, will reflect in the future life.
  Jesus taught the same principle for those with heavenly hope: the humblest would be higher in privilege in heaven. So that's one example where more is at play.
  And about Armageddon, I was considering (haven't come to a conclusion yet) that the final battle of Gog and Magog is Armageddon. I think it sounds reasonable to presume the final destruction of satan and all that is wicked is the 'big day' of God the Allmighty. I'm investigating this still, I haven't been able to biblically contradict the possibility yet.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-15 00:21:26

Alex,
as to God’s justice, or righteousness, we have to remember
that this is the crux of Christianity, the universal issue we
are running this social experiment here on earth over, for the
past 6000 years.
There are two fundamental aspects to justice: One might be
termed ‘natural justice,’ or ‘contractual justice,’ as in the
management of bilateral relationships,
and the other aspect is unilateral, sovereign bestowal of
blessing or gifts on the basis of free and voluntary giving
and receiving.
To illustrate: There is no obligation on God’s part to create
any one person, and no person has a prior right to be brought
into existence; it is a totally free gift of God.
However, having come into existence, there instantly devolve
rights and obligations on the part of both creature and
Creator to each other.
That is why it is potentially unjust of God to subject a person
to inherited sin, with its woeful punishments of suffering
and alienation from Him, due to the transgression of another
person,
without first asking that person if he wanted to be born in the
first place - and then, if he wanted to be born in sin or perfection;
because subjecting a person to sin and alienation from birth
against his will, is profoundly unjust of God,
in fact, so much so that, His own Law condemns Him
to the death, which He unrighteously permitted to be caused
to the one conceived in sin, but against his consent.
This principle of God’s righteousness can be easily deduced
from Exodus 21:28-30: “But if a bull was formerly in the
habit of goring and warning was served on its owner but he
would not keep it under guard,
and it did put a man or a woman to death, the bull is to be
stoned and also its owner is to be put to death.
If a ransom should be imposed upon him, then he must
give the redemption price for his soul according to all
that may be imposed upon him.”
Jehovah clearly knew that Satan was “the one having the
means to cause death,” and that he was a “man-slayer,”
before he put him in charge of Eden,
but who, or what, could possibly “give the redemption price
for [God’s] soul,” in order to pay for the very “soul” of the
Immortal, Almighty God, and thus effect the justification and
restoration of His Illustrious Name?
Furthermore, who could possibly pay for all the suffering
caused and endured by billions of people over the past
6000 years,
as a result of God’s permitting sin and death to run rampant
against potentially innocent people, namely, all those who
never wanted to be sinners in the first place?
Thank God for having in His Only Begotten Son “the reflection
of His Glory and the exact representation of His very Being,”
who loved righteousness, and the Glory of the Father, more
than His own soul, by volunteering to pour out His Blood
for our salvation and reconciliation with the Father,
and to exonerate Him from the guilt attaching to His permission
of evil here on earth for so long, and to such an extent.
Hence, anybody accepting in faith God’s apology in Christ’s Blood
for the suffering they had to endure in this life, will be let off from
the death sentence that inherited sin brought upon them,
provided they have not sinned after the likeness of the sin by Adam,
which is unforgivable both now and forever.
Thus God’s righteousness is revealed in the saving death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Naturally, this forgiveness of sins does not restore one to the
condition Adam had before he sinned; that will only be
accomplished at the end of the 1000 year kingdom reign,
for those with an earthly destiny.
Now, that is perfect justice: No one, no matter how sinful
they are, will ever have to face God’s judgment wrath,
and lose their soul, over anything they did here on
earth as a result of having been infected with the sin
of Adam,
if they simply put faith in Jesus to the end, and keep
asking for forgiveness for anything they can’t help doing
wrong until Christ returns.
So far for ‘natural justice.’
However, God has purposed not only to be just, but
to go way beyond it, into grace upon grace, for those
whom He foreordained before the founding of the
world in Christ Jesus,
to share with Him in the restoration of mankind as
glorious immortal beings.
This is the indescribable free Gift in Christ Jesus our Lord!
Totally beyond the strings of justice and obligation into
the realm of sovereign free grace, and purposed in the
kind and loving heart of the Father Himself.
Now to the notion of ‘equality’ in the concept of justice.
Beyond the basic justice of giving everybody a free
ticket into the earthly paradise, which Adam lost on
their behalf, and which can be gotten simply by
putting faith in Jesus and asking for daily forgiveness,
God also gives special treatment to the chosen ones,
as noted above; so how can this be just, if He does
not take everybody equally to Heaven?
Are the ways of Jehovah not adjusted right?
Well, all that Adam’s offspring could reasonably
expect is an eventual return to the perfection and
paradise home he enjoyed before his rebellion against
God.
If blessing some people above others does not diminish
their basic privileges, who can call God unjust for doing
just that,
especially if we understand that the purpose for the
special privilege of a small minority is actually designed
to bless the very people seemingly slighted and overlooked
by God in the first place.
Hence, there is no equality with God, only perfect justice,
and grace upon grace to those called to believe it.
But Satan has already trained mankind in the art of entitlement,
the first human rights activist, liberating Eve from the 'oppressive’
patriarchy, and with Adam, all of us, from the bonds holding us back
from becoming gods, and doing it our way, or, rather his way.
I see so many witnesses taking Satan’s bait of wanting to become
like God, without accepting Christ, or the promised services of the
elite 144000, chosen by God for this purpose,
by seeking to get to Heaven some other way, which no doubt, will be
catered to by Satan during the coming hour of test, to put a test upon
all those dwelling on the earth.
There are only two categories of people on earth here now, those who
are anointed and become immortal priests and kings in the coming
kingdom, and the rest of mankind,
and the difference being that, while the anointed are now justified
by means of their faith in Christ to the righteous standing Adam
had before he sinned, and are therefore fit to be adopted as sons
of God in Christ Jesus,
any and all other believers in Christ are justified by their faith only
to the extent of having their sins forgiven upon daily repentance
until the return of Christ, which entitles them entry into the 1000
year reign here on earth, to be restored by means of the 144000,
to the righteous standing Adam had before he sinned.
There is no other deal going with God, either now, or in the
future.
That this justification to perfect righteousness before God is
accomplished only in the anointed is clearly seen by their
already “having no consciousness of sins anymore,” quite
in contrast to those not anointed. Heb.10
Of course Christian means anointed, and anointed means
ruling with Christ as kings and priests; all others are not
members of His Body, and stay here on earth to be blessed,
if they so desire, and appreciate God’s purpose in Christ.
That is how I have been made to see things thus far, and
I would appreciate your, and everybody’s, feedback.
My thoughts on the great tribulation may come later.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-15 03:29:32

Meleti,
you got an interesting point there, about those coming out of
the great tribulation being called righteous ones.
But so were the ‘ancient worthies,’ and yet they cannot be
“made perfect” without the help of the Bride leading them
to waters of life during the 1000 year reign, the same as
those who survive the great tribulation.
If towering figures like Moses and Abraham were looking
forward to being made perfect under the administration
of the Messiah,
what would cause us to think that earthly sheep of the WT
today are somehow more advanced on the road to perfection
than they were, any conceits notwithstanding?
And besides, if a remnant of JW’s make it through the tribulation,
will not also a statistically equivalent remnant of the 2 billion
other Christians make it as well?
So witnesses, just as now, will only make up a small percentage
of about 0.1% of the Christian survivors, or even less once we
factor the rest of mankind into the equation,
ALL of which will be called ‘righteous’ alike, and yet all of them
will still need to be made perfect during the 1000 year reign,
otherwise God’s arrangement for blessing mankind will be
redundant, and we all know who is behind that sort of
propaganda, don’t we?
To be righteous does not mean to be morally, spiritually and
physically perfect.
All it means is that God imputes good motives to them even in
their failings and obvious transgressions.
Now, it is of course entirely possible, and even likely, that
those rejecting the temptation, and eventual pressure, to
accept initiation into the NWO beast,
will also be able to resist Satan’s temptation at the end of the
1000 years, but then, so will a statistical equivalence of those
billions of others who have been resurrected and perfected
during the 1000 years;
unless we can somehow prove that certain decades and
generations during the past 6000 years have produced
an above average of ‘righteous’ people, which I doubt
somehow.
So apart from surviving the great tribulation, there is
nothing special about the character to those who do
so, because in the end it is people’s heart, NOT their
level of sinfulness, that decides which way they turn.
Also, the criteria for judgment will be very simple, and
has got nothing to do with people’s sophistication of
character, or their nominal religious affiliation,
but simply for them to reject the ‘incoming kingdom,
which is about to take complete control of the whole
world, in order to replace the present wicked, lawless
system of things,’
and to do good to those denouncing it as a work of
the Devil, something which witnesses are very ill
prepared for indeed.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-15 08:04:47

  Hi Ross,
  You say I have an interesting point, but you do not address it? Your own line of reasoning cannot advance until you answer the question I’ve raised. To restate it: You claim the sheep of Matthew 25:31-46 must work toward perfection over the course of 1,000 years. Yet, verse 31 depicts Jesus sitting on the throne of judgment. How can he judge these sheep as righteous ones and grant them everlasting life, if the evidence on which this judgment is based is still a 1,000 years in the making?
  Now as to the other point you raise, you seem to feel that the “ancient worthies”——to use the archaic Rutherford term——must work toward perfection over 1,000 years despite being declared righteous by God.
  Where does this idea come from? I know it is a teaching of the Organization, but where is it found in the Bible? Since the promise of the New Covenant is a continuation of the Old Covenant, must we not conclude that individuals who met the stipulations of the Old Covenant will benefit from its provisions; or is God one to welch on an agreement?
  The idea that men of outstanding faith who proved their integrity through the worst of trials will still have to “work toward perfection” over the course of 1,000 years is an invention of our teachers. It has no support in Scripture. It is necessary for the leadership of the Organization to teach us this so that they can shore up the doctrine that has only a tiny minority of humans since Christ are preselected to rule. (It allows them to extend that heavenly rulership to the here and now.) Yet, the Bible indicates quite another reality.
  (Matthew 8:11) . . .But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens;
  (Luke 22:29, 30) . . .I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. . .
  As these two scriptures show, the “ancient worthies” have the heavenly hope to recline at the table with Christ and his anointed followers in the kingdom of the heavens. Why? Because they are declared righteous by God. This being declared righteous by God is no small thing.
  You denigrate God’s wonderful free gift by saying that "all [being declared righteous] means is that God imputes good motives....” It means so very much more than that as Paul explains to the Romans.
  (Romans 3:23, 24) . . .For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus.
  (Romans 3:28-30) . . .For we reckon that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations? Yes, of people of the nations also, 30 if truly God is one, who will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.
  Paul is here talking about anointed Christians who, upon their resurrection, will be instantly accorded perfection, sinlessness, and immortality, all because they are declared righteous by Jehovah. There is no 1,000 year probation period for them; no working toward perfection as if it were something that could be attained by dint of earnest effort. None of that, for it is a free gift, not something to be earned like a wage. This very point Paul goes on to make while speaking of the “ancient worthies”.
  (Romans 4:1-8) . . .That being so, what shall we say about Abraham our forefather according to the flesh? 2 If, for instance, Abraham were declared righteous as a result of works, he would have ground for boasting; but not with God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham exercised faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the man that works the pay is counted, not as an undeserved kindness, but as a debt. 5 On the other hand, to the man that does not work but puts faith in him who declares the ungodly one righteous, his faith is counted as righteousness. 6 Just as David also speaks of the happiness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; 8 happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account.”
  Abraham, Moses, David, and others were all sinful men whose sins have been pardoned. One doesn't earn a pardon, but is granted it at no cost. Faith in God is what determines whether one receives this declaration of righteousness.
  You are promoting a belief that accords with the current teaching of the Governing Body. The idea of being able to work toward perfection harkens back to the rabbincal teaching of the Jews that by works one could achieve righteousness. Evolutionists when confronted with the enormity of their task, reason that even something as improbable as the self-development of life could happen given enough time. We know that our short lifetime is insufficient to the self-development of perfection, but perhaps given more time and with a little help from our celestial friends we might achieve it. These are men's thoughts, not God's.
  If being declared righteous by means of faith not works is good enough for Christians inheriting eternal life in heaven, it will be good enough for the billions of unrighteous who are resurrected. Like us, they will have to faith in God and his Son and have it counted to them as righteousness so that God can grant them perfection as a free gift.

  • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-15 10:25:00

    Meleti I'm excited you brought up these points!
    They do highlight some of the differences in agreement I have with Ross, and they deserve answers. So I hope I can answer your questions from my perspective on things:
    Quote 1:
    -----------
    "You claim the sheep of Matthew 25:31-46 must work toward perfection over the course of 1,000 years. Yet, verse 31 depicts Jesus sitting on the throne of judgment. How can he judge these sheep as righteous ones and grant them everlasting life, if the evidence on which this judgment is based is still a 1,000 years in the making?"
    1) I believe that the judgement of the sheep and goat, is based on their actions up to that moment ALONE.
    If it were on their future actions, then where would the nations against the kingdom come from after the 1000 year battle for Gog and Magog?
    2) Let's not use the word "perfection", it's a confusing word in our present day understanding. Today, in our culture and language, we expect perfect to be without flaws and to be without the ability to become flawed. Like a perfectly cut diamond that lasts forever. But this understanding of the word "perfect" is not equal to "justification". When the Bible would say that Jehovah created Satan perfect, we understand he was justified but with a free will capable of sinning.
    3) The three states are: unjustified, justified, sanctified. Thus it is more appropriate to say that during the 1000 years, the justified sheep on earth work toward sanctification, holiness. This, through obedience.
    Understanding this better does NOT require the anti-biblical JW doctrine of "growing to perfection". To illustrate: the anointed in justified state today, are already "perfect" in Jehovah's eyes. The sheep during the 1000 years will be already "perfect" from the beginning, upon being judged "justified" by Christ.
    Conclusion:
    ---------------
    I agree with you Meleti, that there is NO reason to say that they need to work toward "perfection", because they already are. But perfection should not be confused with justified or sanctified. Both are perfect from God's point of view.
    Quote 2:
    -----------
    "Now as to the other point you raise, you seem to feel that the “ancient worthies”——to use the archaic Rutherford term——must work toward perfection over 1,000 years despite being declared righteous by God."
    1) To clarify my position: the "ancient worthies" will already be resurrected "perfect". At a very minimum, they are justified.
    However, as I said before, there might be a mechanism that I'm not understanding very well that entitles them to "sanctification" based on their faith. I'm saying this because after the final test, mankind will also be sanctified, but I don't know of a contract that promises these heavenly life. It would be wholly up to Jehovah.
    2) In case the ancient worthies are resurrected as saints, they would, i presume, take part in the first resurrection. In case the ancient worthies are resurrected in justified state, they would take part in the second resurrection.
    3) This second resurrection is, I believe, the resurrection spoken of when the bible says: "a resurrection of the righteous (just) and unrighteous (unjust). The righteous to life, the unrighteous to death.
    There is a judgement process involved, and the outcome is that they are declared just. So, in the same way as the "great crowd" coming out of the great tribulation, they are "perfect" in the sense of being "justified". There is no need to work toward "justification"/"perfection", even IF they are resurrected during the 1000 years.
    4) As far as the timing of the second resurrection, I think it might not be during the 1000 years. In case of Ross' point of view, if the "worthies" are resurrected afterward, then on what basis can they "become perfect", unless they are resurrected as such already?
    The two resurrections are described in Revelation 20: 4, 5
    "[..] And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection."
    If there is no resurrection during the 1000 years, then Ross' position cannot be valid.
    Quote 3
    ----------
    "Faith in God is what determines whether one receives this declaration of righteousness."
    1) I don't agree. Faith is a REQUIREMENT for receiving the FIRST resurrection, and is SUFFICIENT for the SECOND resurrection.
    Here is proof that they they can be in the book of life on basis of works:
    Revelation 20: 12-13
    I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.
    The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 
    The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades+ gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. 
    2) If my proof is complete, then I need to also give the same evidence for the sheep that are declared justified based on "works" and thus might constitute the great crowd, which ross and I argue will remain on earth.
    I submit that in the parable of the sheep and goats of Matthew 25, judgement is squarely based on works toward Jesus brothers:
    Matthew 25: 40
    In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
    3) The irony of this entire situation, is that I think the society simply pre-maturely determined the Great Crowd's existence, because they believed 1914-1919 to be the tribulation, and the Great Crowd thus having appeared already. Since this is UTTERLY REFUTED and ADJUSTED by their own admittance, they have sadly, to this day, not refuted the clear consequence: there is no great crowd yet.
    Today, the only hope remains the Christian hope.
    CONTRACTUAL JUSTICE
    The anointed receive a token of their inheritance. This is a contract which declares them justified in the race for sanctification.
    This helps us understand justification is like a contract with current blessings and a promise of future blessings.
    The contract entitles one to eternal life, when keeping the terms of the contract. This applied to Adam, this applies to the anointed in days past and today, and this will also apply to the justified great crowd in the 1000 years and the resurrected justified ones at the second resurrection.
    I hope I answered your questions directly and adequately Meleti.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-15 11:30:09

      Hi Alex,
      I concur with you that we have to define our terms carefully to ensure we are in agreement on the premise points of our discussion. Regarding your objection to the use of "perfection", let me just say that while the term can have various meanings in English, I was using it in my comment in line with the definition Apollos expounded upon in his excellent post, "Was Adam Perfect". Following that post, I published one to add my two cents worth to the discussion. Based on that, the anointed are truly perfect upon their resurrection (or transformation) to spirit life.
      I believe that faithful men of pre-Christian times, like Abraham or Moses, will also be resurrected to heavenly, not earthly, life.
      You are basing much of your line of reasoning on the definition you place on three words: "unjustified, justified, sanctified". Before we can judge the validity of your argument, you will need to provide scriptural references of the use of these three terms and then scriptural support for the definitions and applications you are assigning to them.
      You also have an understanding of what the resurrection of the unrighteous and the righteous are as well as when they occur. You need to give proof of that.
      Finally, your conclusion that the sheep are declared righteous and granted everlasting life on the basis of works without faith finds no support in scripture. In my comment, I listed several scriptures showing that faith is the basis for a judgment of righteousness. You've provided none to show that works alone will grant a individual such a judgment.
      Jesus explains the reason for the favorable judgment upon the sheep at Matthew 10:40-42:
      (Matthew 10:40-42) . . .“He that receives YOU receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth. 41 He that receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and he that receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell YOU truly, he will by no means lose his reward.”
      The sheep are surprised at the magnitude of their reward because they were expecting more would be required of them. They thought they'd have to do good to the Lord, and are pleasantly surprised to learn that simply doing good to one of his brothers, because he is one of Jesus' brothers, puts them in line for the same reward. It isn't what they do, but why they do it that counts. It is faith that produces the good work.

  • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-15 14:28:21

    I just lost my 15 paragraph reply Meleti by some browser quirk. How sad :(
    I don't have the time to repeat everything I wrote, so Ill try to summarize what I had so far.
    First I was relating my experiences that I am shut down cold when trying to have engaging scriptural discussions, even have been punished for asking elders on a shepherding call a valid biblical question despite re-affirmation of accepting the FDS.
    Then i expressed gratitude for what we enjoy here, Proverbs 27: 17
    As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.
    Then I agreed "perfection" comes down to how we define it. I agree with apollos' article fully, but I also recognize all Jehovah's ways are perfect. Even the Law was perfect, but the New Covenant was better still. But in the english language, I totally accept sanctified as closest to what we understand as perfect today.
    Then I mentioned you asked for a better definition. I said that I need more time to do an exhaustive word study on unjust, just, sanctified, but by and large you can think of unrighteous, righteous, and holy to get the point. Notice how what is holy is also righteous.
    Then I quoted Acts 24: 14, 15
    "I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. "
    During the Law period, the hope for resurrection was earthly. The resurrection is based on justification, and the vehicle for heavenly hope was unknown to those pre-Jesus. Thus I argue this hope was an earthly resurrection. Further, this is a resurrection of the righteous we are interested in.
    Now the writer could have been very clever here, and in one time speak truth to both the Law and the New Covenant. After all, the sanctified are also justified, and the wicked or unjust will perish. In this way he affirms both the Law and the hope of the saints. He would have had to have both resurrections in mind though.
    But I believe this is not the case, because if he wanted to refer to the saints he would, I believe, have said: "a resurrection of both the holy and the wicked." The truth is that the first resurrection does NOT include judging of the dead. The first resurrection is only for the holy. It is the gathering of the sealed ones and resurrection of the saints in Christ.
    Then I wrote about Rev 20 talking about two resurrections, placing the second resurrection after the 1000 years, and saying the first resurrection is that of the holy.
    So the question begs: if the first resurrection includes ALL those saved by faith and the new covenant (or unknown covenant of faith as vehicle to heaven). Then who is LEFT OVER for the second resurrection?
    The only logical answer here is the justified.
    I have to go very soon now, but I want to comment on this:
    quote:
    "Jesus explains the reason for the favorable judgment upon the sheep at Matthew 10:40-42"
    pay attention to the verbs
    hospitality, helping the poor, giving the thirsty one water, ....
    these are what I call "works".
    When i say faith, I specifically talk about the faith in the new covenant promise on the basis of jesus dieing for them personally.
    To illustrate what I mean, I think a perfect example. In egypt recently muslims held hands guarding a christian church so they would not be attacked while doing their service. (Christians did the same for muslims also in egypt)
    This is a perfect example of "works" done by those without "faith". Even an atheist can show kindness to Jesus' brothers during the great tribulation.
    They are without the Christian hope, so they do not have faith in this hope. But they are meek because of what they do shows goodness in them.
    Same goes for a chinese man who never had faith in Jesus because he never heard or met a brother of Christ. In resurrection he will be judged based on works.
    As far as saying there is no scriptural support. I believe I did give you a few.
    One was Rev 20: 13.
    "They were judged, each one according to his works."
    Hosea 2:23 shows mercy is extended on those who are NOT gods people.
    I will say to those not my people:“You are my people,”
    Surely those who have faith would qualify as Gods people. So it's talking about another group of people. I have numerous more examples like that.
    On Abraham: He was "declared" righteous while alive, so I believe his death was the death of a justified man. It would be just for Jehovah to resurrect him in the second resurrection, but the bible gives some clue that he had another hope.
    I would quantify this as somehow exercising faith in the new covenant, something Jehovah gave him understanding about prior to it being instituted, and then retroactively including him because of his extraordinary relationship with Jehovah.
    However, if he is included in this covenant, then he will rise up in the first resurrection. Thus the second resurrection may not include "ancient worthies" like Abraham, who had a faith beyond what the Law might provide (notice Abraham was not under the law). The transfiguration always interested me, with Moses etc being another candidate.
    I gotta run, im still sad my previous writings got lost and I had little time. Hope this at least gets the conversation moving forward.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-16 07:39:57

      So your solution was to replace it with a 30 paragraph reply? :)
      If I'm understanding you correctly, there are three resurrections:
      1) The "first resurrection" to heavenly life at or just before the start of the 1,000 year reign.
      2) The earthly resurrection of the righteous, at or during the 1,000 year reign.
      3) The earthly resurrection of the unrighteous after the 1,000 year reign has ended.
      Is that accurate?

      • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-16 19:27:55

        2+3 would be the same resurrection, both after the 1000 years.
        Thus the righteous wake up in Adam-like state in a paradise earth.
        The resurrection of the unjust either straight to Gehenna, or not. I'm not sure about that yet. What about Adam, judas, sodom Gomorrah? Another topic...

  • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-16 13:13:45

    Meleti-
    "Paul is here talking about anointed Christians who, upon their resurrection, will be instantly accorded perfection, sinlessness, and immortality, all because they are declared righteous by Jehovah. There is no 1,000 year probation period for them; no working toward perfection as if it were something that could be attained by dint of earnest effort..."
    I agree with you . It appears that our teaching of the 1000 year reign is the JW version of the Catholic Church's purgatory teaching .

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-15 20:32:46

Meleti,
before answering your point above, I thought it best to acquaint
myself better with your views about ‘sinlessness’ and ‘free will.’
You seem to imply that sinlessness is somehow qualitatively
inferior to perfection - and I like to use the term ‘perfection,’
to simply mean ‘fit for purpose,’ as that seems to be the most
apt summation of its character.
So how, then, could Adam justly be condemned for simply making an
‘IMperfect’ choice, since, according to your reasoning, he was never
endowed with perfection to start with?
If he wasn't made ‘fit for’ the ‘purpose’ of making correct ethical choices,
how could God condemn him, assuming you believe that Adam is
irretrievably lost?
If you intend to differentiate between Adam’s pre-test condition and
his successful graduation, to be allowed to eat of the tree of life,
then I think we need to employ different terms for that.
We could make a case that Adam, upon self-restricting his free will
for a considerable period of time, in enlightened obedience to God’s
single prohibition, would attain to a condition of permanence in this
simple ethical act of determinism, to adopt God’s will for him as his
own.
After all, should not that which is created trust the good intentions
of its Creator?
But this ethical choice was not unique to Adam, because being made
in God’s image, the Father Himself, at some point in time, even
before the 'invention' of Jesus, made the irreversible decision to
henceforth limit the exercise of His free will, to accommodate His
future intelligent creation.
If Adam was not ‘perfect,’ or ‘fit for purpose,’ to make this choice
of self-limiting his will, then nor was God Himself, if being made
in His image is to have any meaning at all.
At this point I would like to quote a line from your essay, ‘Was Adam
perfect,’ QUOTE: “If we see ourselves as being so different from
Adam then it’s easy to blame all our bad choices on a loss of perfection.
Indeed we are all sinners, but even in this system surrounded by sin,
there is no reason for us to think we are so different from Adam that
we cannot successfully work at achieving that which he did not.”
UNQUOTE
Really, the only thing we can do is accepting Christ, upon Him
being offered to us; and that is all we ever need to do, because,
think about it: What did you have to do to become a sinner?
Nothing; so what do you need to do to rid yourself of it, pull
yourself off the ground by your boot strings?
Yes, perhaps most people love sin, having accepted Adam’s
transgression as their own, and now wanting to work their
way up out of the pit by their own efforts.
On the surface, that seems to be a noble endeavor, if it weren't
for the fact that it makes Christ’s sacrifice redundant, and His
kingdom rule obsolete.
If you don’t like the idea of reaching perfection by means of the
millennial kingdom administration, there is still the promise
of God to become part of Christ through baptism into His death,
to the ‘whoever’s’ thus foreordained before the founding of the
world.
The promise of Abraham is not, by means of your seed all
nations, except the survivors of the great tribulation, will be
blessed - all nations means ALL nations.
I know JW’s have been so conditioned to view themselves as
something special, compared to the rest of mankind, and its
large crowd of ‘worldlings,’ which will constitute by far the
largest part of those who will survive the tribulation,
as to view themselves beyond the need to drink of life’s water,
and eat of the leaves for their healing; but that spiritual pride is
precisely what Satan is going to exploit, in leading them down
the path of self-apotheosis, without them even knowing it.
To illustrate my point: Lets suppose a prolific sinner, for
sinning is what sinners are best at, sees the light at the last
minute, so to speak, and puts faith in Jesus by rejecting the
mark of the beast.
Despite a lifetime of deeply ingrained sinfulness, he is pronto
made ‘righteous’ by surviving the great tribulation, and has no
need of the priestly services of the kingdom to slowly return
him to the moral and physical perfection that Adam once had.
But exactly the same type of person, with the same inherited
and ingrained flaws, having died, say, 20 years ago, is therefore
not ‘righteous,’ by virtue of his not having come out of the great
tribulation, and hence, IS in need of the 1000 year slow restoration
to perfection.
How do you figure that?
Let’s make the illustration even more pointed: Say, there are two
faithful and long standing witnesses with excellent ‘character
development,’ or, ‘refinement of vices,’ if we wanted to be honest,
at any rate, one of them dies just minutes before Christ returns,
and thus just misses out on being ‘righteous,' which, according
to your interpretation means that he needs to slog through the
1000 blessing services to reach perfection,
while the other brother lives a few moments longer, to the arrival
of Christ, and thus makes it through the great tribulation, and is
thus miraculously perfected into 'righteousness.’
How can that be?
Both exercised total saving faith in Christ, but only one of them
is viewed as righteous and gets everlasting life, due to a technical
point of timing?
What is to be done then?
Well, we simply have to view the being ‘righteous’ and ‘entering
into everlasting life,’ of the tribulation surviving great crowd, in
the context of Revelation,
which elaborates that all those on earth, no matter whether of the
resurrected or the survivors, will need to avail themselves of the
water-like teaching of life, and eat of the leafs of the trees for their
curing from sin, in order to gain everlasting life.
Having one’s sins pardoned does not make one perfect, otherwise
Lazarus would not have died again.
All Scriptures you cite about the anointed, apply exclusively to the
anointed.
Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater
than John the Baptist;
but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the Heavens,
is greater than he is,
because no one could be born of the Spirit before it was being
given, and without the new birth no one can enter Heaven.
Hence, the sitting with Abraham at the table must refer to the
earthly realm of the kingdom, in order not to contradict Christ’s
previous words.
Righteousness by Law and its works was preached and practiced
in ancient Israel, which showed up God’s need to sacrifice Christ,
in order to rescind the condemnatory judgment resting on inherited
sin and its victims,
but from there on, it is up to the individual here on earth during the
1000 years to conform his life to God’s righteous laws, by availing
himself of the leaves meant for the curing of the nations, which
priestly services effect the removal of the exceeding sinfulness of sin
from their beings - otherwise, what use for the kingdom and its priests?
Read the old testament to see how the priests taught the people
God’s ways and straightened things out between them and a
Holy God, in order to a glimpse of what the 1000 years will
be like.
You have to differentiate between how things work with the
perfecting of the anointed and, in turn, their perfecting of
mankind during the kingdom reign; this should not be too
difficult to do for with someone with a witness background.
Just because the WT misuses its power, is no reason to throw
out the baby with the bathwater.
Examine all things, hold fast to what is fine.
Righteousness by faith does not equate to sinlessness, even
in the anointed, how much less in those with an earthly
destiny?
I wonder why you would think of the priestly services of the
heavenly Kings towards their subjects as ‘self-development,’
which it clearly is not; your reasoning makes the kingdom of
God obsolete, can’t you see that?
I think that your wanting ‘equal treatment’ by God for the
anointed and their kingdom subjects alike, could lead you
to support a cause, which, when looked at in hindsight, may not
be in your best interest.
These are my observations to date, and I invite any and all
feedback to help me see things clearer.
If I have misread anything or anyone, please forgive.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-15 20:54:03

  Ross I made a reply also, higher in this thread.
  Let me know what you think of it
  http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8633

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-15 21:33:17

  The justified condition for Israelites was dependent on continued reliance on the priestly mediation.
  Likewise it will be for "gods people" on earth during the 1000 year reign.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-16 08:05:58

  >>I like to use the term ‘perfection,’ to simply mean ‘fit for purpose,’
  That is one definition of the word. Words in English are often overloaded, so I now prefer sinless when describing this particular human condition. Jesus was also sinless, but not perfect. He was made perfect by the things he suffered. (Heb. 5:8,9)
  Rather than get lost in the multiple possible definitions of a word, let us consider the concept we believe the word embodies.
  There is perfect in the sense of 'fit for the purpose it was made'. I'll call that PerfectA. PerfectA can apply to anything. A table or chair could be described as PerfectA.
  Then there is PerfectB which only applies to PerfectA intelligent beings made in the image of God who have had their integrity tested through a test of some kind and passed. 'Jesus was made PerfectB by the things he suffered'. (Heb. 5:8, 9)
  Adam lost his PerfectionA when he sinned, making himself no longer fit for purpose. If he had passed through that test he might have attained to PerfectionB. (I say this for purposes of illustration only, as I do not know how severe or comprehensive a test must be to achieve PerfectionB.)
  >>Let’s make the illustration even more pointed: Say, there are two faithful and long standing witnesses with excellent ‘character development,’ or, ‘refinement of vices,’ if we wanted to be honest, at any rate, one of them dies just minutes before Christ returns, and thus just misses out on being ‘righteous,’ which, according to your interpretation means that he needs to slog through the 1000 blessing services to reach perfection,
  
  That is not my interpretation at all. You seem to be arguing throughout the remainder of your comment against the interpretation of the Watchtower Society. In any case, I don't believe that anyone can achieve PerfectionA from a sinful state by works. Faith driven works will give God a reason to grant PerfectionA or PerfectionB as a free gift. What Jehovah is looking at is heart condition. If the heart condition can be achieved by a single act or work of faith, he need not wait for more, as he can read the heart. For me, to say that we "work toward perfection" as the publications state is to nullify Psalm 49:8.

Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-15 23:55:39

I find the growing to perfection idea confusing. According to this belief where do those of the second resurrection fall.. John says that at the end of the 1000 year reign they will be resurrected. Revelation 20:5

Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-15 23:56:52

That should read... Once the 1000 years has ended they will be resurrected

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-16 00:07:07

  Already made that point here:
  "Then I wrote about Rev 20 talking about two resurrections, placing the second resurrection after the 1000 years, and saying the first resurrection is that of the holy."
  http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8633
  And the confusion stems from word perfection. Ross, Meleti and I have different definitions. Ross defines it as a process toward sanctification, Meleti as sanctification, and I as the inherent condition of justification (from the start) but made permanent in sanctification.

  • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-16 00:22:10

    1Co 6:15-18 ruins my prior definition of sanctification. Anointed are in more than justified state. They are in holy state. I need to review my theory.
    So I need to think about consequences for all scenarios.
    Let's call it the three veils for now, using the tabernacle analogies.
    First veil = from unjust to just
    Second veil = from just to sanctified
    Third veil = from sanctified to heavenly resurrection (temp. Definition)
    I'll try to reformulate tomorrow.

  • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-16 11:12:09

    Alex-
    "This second resurrection is, I believe, the resurrection spoken of when the bible says: “a resurrection of the righteous (just) and unrighteous (unjust)"
    We are in agreement. That is my current understanding. That is Why I do not understand the belief that "the rest of the dead", that John refers to after the First ressurection ,recieves some sort of "spiritual ressurection". In my view that implies that the wicked can recieve a "spiritual ressurection ". (Revelation 20:5)
    The GB's reasoning is that somehow John is saying that the "rest of the dead" kinda comes back to life ......but not really. So along those lines the rest of the dead are kinda dead but not really dead.This interpretation defies the natural reading of the text.

Comment by on 2014-02-16 01:53:02

Alex,
I know the pain of losing typed content in the ‘reply’ window,
that is why I always compose in a word document, which I
update frequently, and then ‘copy and paste’ on site, so that
I always have a backup draft should things go wrong.
Count yourself fortunate, or unfortunate, according to your
level of truth to date, and appreciation for its supremacy,
to not yet having been expelled from the ‘synagogue,’
for speaking the truth with ‘one another,’ and as it is in Jesus.
You say that much depends on the definition of ‘perfection’-
how true, because as the purpose changes, there also needs
to come a change of the ‘perfection’ suited to the task.
For example, a screwdriver is 'perfect’ for driving screws,
but not fit for purpose to drive nails into wood.
So can we trust God to have given Adam the 'complete ethical
equipment,’ whatever that may mean and involve, to make the
right choice in this test of loyalty?
We would have to believe so, given the extraordinary lengths
to which He goes to prove His righteousness, or, rather, have
it proved by us, through our faith in Jesus.
So, you are naturally right in saying that ALL Jehovah’s ways
are perfect for the undertaking of His purpose.
However, even with Him, perfection does not equate with
righteousness, because without Christ’s death, the Father
would be very much ‘unrighteous’ towards those being
subjected to futility against their will.
Hence, while keen to discover nuances of meaning in words,
we need to be careful not to draw wrong conclusions in their
interpretation from case to case.
Although the Law was perfect, as you say, it MADE NOTHING
perfect, nor should it do in those born imperfect.
Sanctification, as you point out, is a being made fit for a special
purpose, build upon, and yet far surpassing, the basic quality of
righteousness, involving, as it does, the appointment by God
to the priesthood of the individual, called specially for this
purpose.
Talking about the priest hood, we need not think of there being
a distinction made among those bound for Heaven as to their
belonging to two separate entities, Priests and non-priestly Levites,
as in the old economy,
because Christ, and we through Him, have received a compound
authority as Kings and Priests according to the manner of
Melchizedek, into aeonian perpetuity.
If we want to find out what happens to the OT ‘saints,’ we need
go no further than Psalm 45:16, where it tells us that Jesus’
forefathers will become His sons, whom He will appoint as princes
in all the earth.
Thus the Holy Spirit tells us plainly that the OT forefathers
will be resurrected here on earth, and have the relationship of
Father to son with Jesus - NOT that of brothers of Christ.
The term ‘justified’ is only another way of saying ‘declared
righteous,’ and does by itself, that is, without the additional
promise of God for heavenly life, not constitute sanctification.
Hence, righteousness must be seen in context, and within the
limits of its purpose; it is not, and I repeat, it is NOT a
‘standard’ which is attained, and applicable across all
people in their relationship with God, but HIGHLY
individual!
To illustrate, a believer may not yet appreciate that God is
no trinity, but wanting to serve Him in all sincerity, is
viewed by Him as righteous at this point in time,
while another Christian, knowing that the trinity is false,
but then for whatever reasons stays with a Church teaching
these lies, will be viewed by God as unrighteous, until
he repents and takes a stand for truth.
Therefore, righteousness provides no entitlement to the heavenly
hope, although it is a prerequisite for it.
The ‘coming to life’ in Revelation 20:5, does not need to mean
physical resurrection, because in this context, what would the
1000 year kingly and priestly rule mean, if those to be ruled over
were actually absent for precisely that period of time?
Should we really imagine God to be such a goof?
Only those passing the final test will really ‘come to life’
in this sense - I can’t see the difficulty with understanding
it thus, if looked at with unbiased eyes.
On another matter, I do not believe in ‘retroactive covenants,’
for the simple reason that a covenant is valid only over dead
victims,
since it is not in force at any time while the covenanter is
deemed to be living.
Hence, before Christ’s death the new covenant could not have
been in force and applied to anyone, so that none of the
foreordained sons of God were placed on that side of
Christ’s death by the Father.
For those of the earthly class, an ongoing condition of righteousness
must be maintained until after the final test and its ‘sealing’ therein.
In the above post you note that the anointed are more than justified,
namely, sanctified and set apart for the special role of a Royal
Priesthood; that is also the way I see it.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-16 08:17:07

  Psalms 45:16 does make provision for Jesus to be Father to countless sons, which is why he is called "eternal father" at Isaiah 9:6. However, that does not preclude some who were declared righteous like Abraham from becoming his brothers.
  We have to remember that the Old Covenant was complete and only failed because the Jews broke the agreement by their unfaithfulness. Had they not done this, they would have inherited the kingdom. Therefore, faithful individuals like Moses can still be included in the full benefits of being in that covenant.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-16 01:56:32

Alex,
I know the pain of losing typed content in the ‘reply’ window,
that is why I always compose in a word document, which I
update frequently, and then ‘copy and paste’ on site, so that
I always have a backup draft should things go wrong.
Count yourself fortunate, or unfortunate, according to your
level of truth to date, and appreciation for its supremacy,
to not yet having been expelled from the ‘synagogue,’
for speaking the truth with ‘one another,’ and as it is in Jesus.
You say that much depends on the definition of ‘perfection’-
how true, because as the purpose changes, there also needs
to come a change of the ‘perfection’ suited to the task.
For example, a screwdriver is 'perfect’ for driving screws,
but not fit for purpose to drive nails into wood.
So can we trust God to have given Adam the 'complete ethical
equipment,’ whatever that may mean and involve, to make the
right choice in this test of loyalty?
We would have to believe so, given the extraordinary lengths
to which He goes to prove His righteousness, or, rather, have
it proved by us, through our faith in Jesus.
So, you are naturally right in saying that ALL Jehovah’s ways
are perfect for the undertaking of His purpose.
However, even with Him, perfection does not equate with
righteousness, because without Christ’s death, the Father
would be very much ‘unrighteous’ towards those being
subjected to futility against their will.
Hence, while keen to discover nuances of meaning in words,
we need to be careful not to draw wrong conclusions in their
interpretation from case to case.
Although the Law was perfect, as you say, it MADE NOTHING
perfect, nor should it do in those born imperfect.
Sanctification, as you point out, is a being made fit for a special
purpose, build upon, and yet far surpassing, the basic quality of
righteousness, involving, as it does, the appointment by God
to the priesthood of the individual, called specially for this
purpose.
Talking about the priest hood, we need not think of there being
a distinction made among those bound for Heaven as to their
belonging to two separate entities, Priests and non-priestly Levites,
as in the old economy,
because Christ, and we through Him, have received a compound
authority as Kings and Priests according to the manner of
Melchizedek, into aeonian perpetuity.
If we want to find out what happens to the OT ‘saints,’ we need
go no further than Psalm 45:16, where it tells us that Jesus’
forefathers will become His sons, whom He will appoint as princes
in all the earth.
Thus the Holy Spirit tells us plainly that the OT forefathers
will be resurrected here on earth, and have the relationship of
Father to son with Jesus - NOT that of brothers of Christ.
The term ‘justified’ is only another way of saying ‘declared
righteous,’ and does by itself, that is, without the additional
promise of God for heavenly life, not constitute sanctification.
Hence, righteousness must be seen in context, and within the
limits of its purpose; it is not, and I repeat, it is NOT a
‘standard’ which is attained, and applicable across all
people in their relationship with God, but HIGHLY
individual!
To illustrate, a believer may not yet appreciate that God is
no trinity, but wanting to serve Him in all sincerity, is
viewed by Him as righteous at this point in time,
while another Christian, knowing that the trinity is false,
but then for whatever reasons stays with a Church teaching
these lies, will be viewed by God as unrighteous, until
he repents and takes a stand for truth.
Therefore, righteousness provides no entitlement to the heavenly
hope, although it is a prerequisite for it.
The ‘coming to life’ in Revelation 20:5, does not need to mean
physical resurrection, because in this context, what would the
1000 year kingly and priestly rule mean, if those to be ruled over
were actually absent for precisely that period of time?
Should we really imagine God to be such a goof?
Only those passing the final test will really ‘come to life’
in this sense - I can’t see the difficulty with understanding
it thus, if looked at with unbiased eyes.
On another matter, I do not believe in ‘retroactive covenants,’
for the simple reason that a covenant is valid only over dead
victims,
since it is not in force at any time while the covenanter is
deemed to be living.
Hence, before Christ’s death the new covenant could not have
been in force and applied to anyone, so that none of the
foreordained sons of God were placed on that side of
Christ’s death by the Father.
For those of the earthly class, an ongoing condition of righteousness
must be maintained until after the final test and its ‘sealing’ therein.
In your last post you note that the anointed are more than justified,
namely, sanctified, set apart for a special purpose as the Royal
Priesthood - that is the way I see it too.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-16 09:45:46

  Ross,
  you need to not rule out Rev 20 second resurrection just because you don't understand it or just because it doesn't fit your theory. It is more compelling that it speaks of the end of Hades shortly after. If hades was emptied before, during the 1000 years, perhaps after 10,20 years... Why mention it to be destroyed afterward?
  Notice how anointed resurrected say 'death where is your sting', having fully escaped death. Resurrection and subsequent statement against death has a precedent.
  Meleti,
  1)
  I'm in agreement with perfectA and perfectB definitions.
  2)
  I'm still not on board with the save by faith alone thing. You seem to have stretched the definition of faith to include a simple gesture in recognition of a visible manifestation at the coming of Christ. I think at that point it is not faith. Faith is toward the unseen.
  And during the tribulation .. I've given a few examples like Muslims treating Christians well. They don't have faith that God wants. But they do good works, and will be blessed for it.
  And in ages past, there are plenty who never heard of Christ. They did good works however.
  3) faith was not required for the nation of Israel, obedience to the law was the requirement. This is called works. When the bible says faith is required, it's talking about the Christian hope.
  Abraham had a special faith without a law covenant. Even Moses did, pre-law, and Elijah. But king David etc, I don't know..he had the law so perhaps he comes as prince for resurrected Israelites on earth. I don't know.
  4) today the law is fulfilled in Christ, meaning the only path to salvation left is faith.
  However, I'm convinced god will show mercy based on good works for those who had best intentions and good heart. Their lot will be earth because they didn't qualify for the Christian calling.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-16 10:33:23

    You are making the assumption that a Muslim doing a good work to a Christian during the great tribulation will be granted eternal life. What proof do you have for this?
    As for faith not being required for the nation of Israel, I hardly know where to begin. Hebrews 11 perhaps. Or do a word search on faith* and see how often they were condemned by God's prophets for their lack of faith.

    • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-16 11:26:39

      I believe in a CHANCE to eternal life for those who didn't have the chance toward faith.
      Israel as a nation required to keep the commandments. That is works.
      Someone without special faith could keep the law commandments and be just.
      Now, would someone do the works required by law without faith that it could justify them? Probably not likely. But keeping the commandments, the works, was their requirement. Faith is very intertwined of course.
      Case in point: I know enough witnesses who go in service without the faith that is required of Christians: that Jesus died for our sin.

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-16 12:17:31

        So your hypothetical Muslim would have a CHANCE for eternal life. But wouldn't all the unrighteous, even those who did no good works toward Jesus' brothers have a chance for eternal life by virtue of coming back in the resurrection of the unrighteous?

        • Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-16 12:28:07

          If the second resurrection is after the 1000 years, all on earth have to withstand satan and take a stand for Jehovah in the battle of gog and Magog.
          The unrighteous will receive a resurrection of judgement. This might mean second death also. I'm not sure. If they do somehow live, it will be to die in the battle of gog and Magog. So I wouldn't call it much of a chance.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-16 22:34:03

            That explains much. We are far apart on the meaning of the resurrection of the unrighteous.

Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-16 10:23:00

I cannot wait for the discussion thread feature! :) we are discussing subjects all over the place under this thread.
Ross-
You believe that the only the 144,000 make up the first ressurection. (Revelation 20:4)
However you believe that " the rest of the dead" are ressurected in a "spiritual" sense. Is that what John says? (Revelation 20:5)
There is no scriptural support for spiritual ressurections of the dead. Ressurections in the OT and NT always refers to a physical restoration of life . We(JW) say that this is a "spiritual" ressurection to fit our theology. In this particular case we have to subvert the literal plain sense of Scripture to get it to fit.
In Revelation 20:5 there are no textual clues to help the reader understand this changing in the meaning of ressurection . Therefore if the " rest of the dead " are spiritually Ressurected so are those in the "first ressurection " from Revelation 20:4.
If we had to explain these scriptures alone to a person studying the bible with us from the GB's view ...We could not.
As to the "growing to perfection " reasoning. It's man made. The scriptures tell us that those of the first ressurection will rule during the 1000 years. .Besides that... The scriptures makes no mention of what will happen during the 1000 year reign. We will have to wait and see...
Maybe we can agree at least that the GB approaches the interpretation of Revelation to make the JW history of 1914 -1918 and the 144,000 doctrine fit. ....

Comment by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-16 15:09:27

I am coming into this most interesting discussion late in the game (my fault), and really I should have made notes on what everyone wrote to stand a better chance of not misrepresenting anyone's position (an easy thing to do by mistake). But I didn't. I just read the whole thread from scratch. And I was probably 60+ comments in by the time I thought about doing that.
Rather than backtrack and go for a "who said what" approach, I'd just like to make a few of general observations, and then those who agree/disagree will no doubt respond and I will hopefully work my way into the conversation.
1. The Great Crowd
It seems that quite a bit of focus was given to the "before the throne" aspect in reasoning out of the GC being in heaven. I agree that the earth is God's footstool and "before the throne" in itself doesn't tell us whether a person or group is anywhere in particular. However the crucial point about Rev 7 is that the GC serve in the 'na-os'. The mere fact that WTS had to misrepresent the meaning of 'na-os' and 'hieron' to try and argue out of the implication of this, is a good indicator that this scripture really does equate 'na-os' with being in the presence of God - in heaven. Then combined with the Rev 19 reference to a "great crowd in heaven" on the face of it it would seem that the same group in the same location is alluded to. Any appeal to the use of the term "great crowd" in a non-symbolic context in the gospels seems week to me.
How can the GC be non-Christian? They "wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb". How could a non-Christian do that? And since the one thing we all seem to agree on is that being anointed is at the very heart of what it means to be Christian I don't see a way around this but to accept that the GC is either a subset of the symbolic 144K (an interpretation that makes sense to me), or that the GC is the entire symbolic 144K viewed from another symbolic point of view.
2. The tent of God is with mankind / the fountains of water
Is it only those on earth that need to be led to fountains of waters of life and to be healed? Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman in John 4 says not. These waters are needed by those who would become anointed Christians. Furthermore Rev 21:6,7 refers to "anyone conquering" inheriting the spring of the water of life. The idea of conquering is repeatedly given to the anointed Christians especially in chapters 2 & 3 of Revelation, so piecing these passages together tells us that conquering Christians need God/Jesus to guide them to these fountains also. This follows the idea that the priests of Israel still had to make sacrifices for their own sins. I'm not suggesting that they are still sinners in heaven, but simply that we cannot say that they don't need to go through the final redemptive process of being healed / drinking the life-giving waters once they get there.
3. Works vs faith
Just because Rev 20:12,13 talks about some being judged according to their deeds/works, it surely doesn't negate the need for faith as the basis of judgement. Note Rev 2:23 – Jesus says he will give individually to [anointed Christians] according to their deeds. Whoever we are talking about at whatever point in the sequence of events, is it not the case that faith evidenced by good works is required for a righteous judgement? Adam failed this test. Abraham passed it. Conquering Christians pass it. Those of the nations not destroyed at Armageddon will get a chance to pass it. Other resurrected ones who have not yet passed it will get their chance. Doesn't that cover the spectrum?
4. The purpose of the 1000 years
The way I see it it's not a probation period or a gradual working towards something, but simply an opportunity for everybody who didn't get a chance any other way to put faith in the ransom and be accorded the same status as the ones who are already counted as “sons of God”. Why does it take 1000 years? Who knows? Perhaps it's as simple as a gradual resurrection process so that the kings and priests can give individual attention to the large number of people involved.
Those are a few initial thoughts. There's probably a lot of room for adjustment.
Apollos
P.S. We'll try to get the discussion forum up as soon as possible. This thread alone has demonstrated the need for it as some of you have commented.

• Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-16 18:35:49

  Thank you for the nice summary Apollos.
  Before any consensus can be made... the GB or anyone arguing against the Great Crowd being in heaven.... You must begin with the points you have laid out ...from scripture .
  To comment on your point one.... In addition to "dual fulfilment fatigue " I have "antypical " fatigue. There is no temple in the OT that is comparable to the one John sees. There is no "Great Crowd " in the gospels that compare to what John sees.
  IMO John gives us alot of "freebies" in Interpreting his vision.(Revelation 5:8) We should let John (who is inspired ) interpret his own vision then we (the readers) can reconcile it with the complete scriptures as to it's meaning for us. Revelation is still unfolding so no doubt the picture will be incomplete but at least it would be more accurate than the strange and jumbled picture we have put together by the GB. Only then IMO we can "see " clearly the vision Jesus gave John concerning our future.
  I love the idea of a discussion thread. However, I would love to see these points laid out in a future article.

  • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-02-16 18:57:26

    Hi GodsWordIsTruth
    Thanks for the reply. I just want to be clear that my comment is in no way intended to be a summary of the discussion up to this point. (That would be quite an undertaking in such a short comment)
    I have just picked up on a few points that stood out to me from the merging and diverging views that have been put forward so far.
    I may have misunderstood you as regards point #1, but from what I recall I thought you and I would probably be on the same page as far as that's concerned. I'm not drawing heavily from the literal temple arrangement in order to interpret the "sanctuary" to which Jesus' death opened the way to mean heaven. I'd be happy to expand on that scripturally starting perhaps in Heb 9, but I figured that we probably shared that view in common already.
    I doubt that consensus on all these points would be achievable. As Meleti has often pointed out, many of these things are likely unknowable until they start to unfold in real time.
    Besides, I think that it is healthy to acknowledge that we can discuss this without consensus. Chasing a goal of unity is okay to an extent, but we know where it takes us when that becomes an end in itself.
    Apollos

    • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-16 20:30:15

      Apollos-
      Let me restate ...I think you have summed up my view regarding the Great Crowd being in heaven. :)
      As to the temple arrangement we are definitely in agreement. I was trying to state that looking for antitypes for the temple,Great Crowd (and really most teachings in the NT)is where we (JW) go wrong IMHO interpreting John's Vision(and the visions Ezekiel and Daniel ). John's vision is made more complex than it really is when we look for " antitypes " in an effort to explain our doctrine .
      As it relates to the sanctuary based on Hebrew 9 if you don't mind I still would love to see it even if we are in agreement.
      Where we may differ is on a "gradual resurrection process ". (If I understand you correctly)Revelation 20:4,5 states that the first ressurection is at or near the beginning of the 1000 year reign( they are the kings and priests) and the rest of the dead are raised once it ends. Revelation 20:1- 10 contains the only discussion of the 1000 years in the Bible. I believe that the 70th week prophecy of Daniel and the prophecies of Isaiah may give us an idea of what occurs during that time period .. But it's purely speculation on my part.
      Frankly the Bible does not tell us what exactly is going on during that reign. We know there will be kings, priests and judges. We know that it will be somewhat peaceful because Satan will be bound. The fact that there is a need for kings, priests and judges means that people will Not be sinless because the sinless do not need atonement from a priest nor do their everyday actions require judging. Satan at the end is let loose for "a while" at the end of the 1000 year reign ( and the rest of the dead are raised at the end of this reign)to do what he does best....trying to incite people to take a stand against Jehovah and Jesus (Reve 20:7)
      In short the 1000 year reign is what I believe to be a temporary arrangement of things for those on the earth beginning with the kings and their armies being destroyed at Armageddon. After it's conclusion ,Satan and those who side with him are destroyed . They are destroyed after the "little while " period after the 1000 year reign (an untold time period ) has ended . My current belief is the first ressurection are the righteous and the "rest of the dead" or the second are the unrighteous. ( maybe it includes some of the righteous... I admit that I am stuck there )
      It's a rough sketch.. I would appreciate scriptual adjustments :) As you and Meleti state often that the understanding of certain topics are not life or death (or something to that effect? ) Revelation is a pet project for me :)
      I do agree that unity or agreement may not be possible so that should not be the overall goal.

      • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-16 23:58:41

        "They are destroyed after the “little while ” period after the 1000 year reign (an untold time period ) has ended."
        The "(an untold time period )" should follow after the "little while" in the same sentence. I am attempting to say that the " little while" period is an untold time period and begins once the thousand years have ended.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-16 19:38:10

Apollos and all,
I just realized that I have to assume a lot of things about everybody’s
views here, even despite the common witness background we all
seem to share,
so it might be best to ask a few questions, as to what each individual’s
views are on specific details.
Can the great crowd be non-Christian, in the sense of non-anointed,
with which definition I agree, by the way?
Are there in Scripture ANY Christians who are not anointed, justified,
sanctified as kings and priests, firstfruits, new creation, baptized into
Christ’s death, members of Christ’s Body and the Bride of Christ to
rule with Him for the 1000 years from Heaven?
If so, please provide Scriptures.
If there are such Christians having just come out of the great
tribulation, why would they have to be led by the Bride to
fountains of waters of life in their already perfected heavenly
spirit bodies?
Can we identify those coming out of the great tribulation with
the sheep of Matthew 25?
If not, what scriptural proof against such a view can we cite?
Are there any other people, who are not part the great crowd,
to survive the great tribulation?
Who are they, and which Scripture shows that?
If for arguments sake, the great crowd were to go to Heaven,
then there would be no one left to survive here on earth, and
if the ‘second’ resurrection were to take place only after the
end of the 1000 year reign,
there would be no one here on earth to rule over for the
heavenly Kings and Priests during the millennium - is there
anyone here seriously arguing this view?
Do the glorified Christian Priests and Kings rule over
other glorified Christians of the great crowd in Heaven,
with their priestly services representing them before God,
in order to atone for their sins done up there in Heaven in
the Presence of God?
If so, what Scripture shows that to be true?
What is the job-description of a priest?
Can anyone here show scriptural support that a priest is not a
person representing sinful people before God.
What Scriptures show that a King is not in a superior position
to his subjects, and ruling over them as subordinates?
What about people who are not Christians, but who are also
rejecting the mark of the beast?
Will God destroy them along with those who have accepted
the mark?
Or will they also survive the great tribulation?
If they are to survive the great tribulation, please provide
scriptural proof that they are not part of the great crowd
in Revelation 7.
What about people who are not Christians, and who, for argument’s
sake, are also not ‘great crowd Christians,' but who nevertheless
unknowingly do good to Christ’s brothers,
will they not also be coming out of the great tribulation, or will they be
destroyed along with those who actively persecuted the holy ones?
Please provide Scriptures to prove either supposition.
Why would, what some here would describe as, ‘great crowd
anointed Christians’ not recognize their fellow heavenly
Christian brothers, while doing good to them?
Since JW’s are knowingly doing good to those whom they view
as Christ’s brothers, how can they be the great crowd, in view
of Christ’s clear words showing that only those UNKNOWINGLY
doing good to His brothers, would qualify as sheep?
Which scripture shows that doing good to Christ’s brothers is NOT
viewed by Him as being done to Him personally, and therefore
viewed as equivalent to washing one’s robes in His blood?
If the great crowd were the Heavenly Kings and Priests themselves,
why would they in their immortality have to be led to fountains
of waters of life?
Do Christians partake of the waters of life in Christ upon their
anointing here on earth, or only once they reach Heaven in their
Immortal Spirit Bodies?
Christians already have this everlasting spiritual life by virtue of
their being in Christ, why would they need to drink of fountains
of water of life in Heaven in their Immortal, Divine Nature?
1Jno5:11,12
Does the Father have to drink waters of life up in Heaven?
because, just as that One is so are we ourselves in THIS world.
Jno 4:17
I would appreciate it if everybody here could address these
preliminaries, so we can know where each one stands on
these issues. Thanks.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-16 19:54:30

  I think we all may prefer to freeze this discussion until we have a forum.
  It gets frustrating if your tried to make a point, but it gets lost in the walls of text.
  Also, I think the list of questions above could be discussed in at least 20 threads. We are discussing too many things at once.
  So I'll probably retreat for now, re-digest everyone's comments and views, and wait for the forum.
  That said, I think it was awesome to see some different perspectives already.
  Meleti, you have my email. If Ross contacted you via the contact page and agreed to share his email with me, could you facilitate this? I have some of my personal research material I'd like him to review.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-16 22:58:25

    Sure. I'd be happy to help.

• Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-16 21:35:56

  Ross -
  In the defense of what is discussed on this site... We discuss the GB's views on the scriptures 2 times a week at the meetings for approximately 2 hours then multiply that by the 21 years I've been baptized and in "the truth" . My indoctrination began at "infancy" with my parents. I believe that even with their ever changing "truths " I understand their view pretty well. I will admit that I disagree with some of the teachings. I'm not an eloquent speaker or writer by an stretch of the imagination so I am endeared by the arguments made by fellow JW's (Apollos and Meleti ) on this site . My views have definitely be refined and changed by this site even while I disagree with with them at times.
  "I see so many witnesses taking Satan’s bait of wanting to become
  like God, without accepting Christ, or the promised services of the
  elite 144000, chosen by God for this purpose,by seeking to get to Heaven some other way, which no doubt, will be catered to by Satan during the coming hour of test, to put a test upon
  all those dwelling on the earth."
  "I think that your wanting ‘equal treatment’ by God for the
  anointed and their kingdom subjects alike, could lead you
  to support a cause, which, when looked at in hindsight, may not
  be in your best interest."
  "There is no ‘destiny smorgasbord’ where Christians can pick
  and chose, patch and match, what they would like to apply to
  them and what not"
  You have made similar comments that those who are "inventing" another heavenly hope desire to go to heaven because of various motivations. The GB also implies that alot. I have no desire to go to heaven but if Jehovah sees fit for me to be there I can't argue with the Almighty. I recieved strong counsel from Alex and SW about where my desire should lie in that regard and I take it to heart. As for the 144,000 being "elite" or deserving "special" treatment...I'm afraid the GB promotes this view and I disagree. I'm not trying to be disrespectful when I say this but perhaps all those with an heavenly calling should wear large fringes like the religous leaders of Old so the rest won't have to be reminded of the "status " they hold in respect to the rest of Christ's followers.
  "What about people who are not Christians, but who are also
  rejecting the mark of the beast?
  Will God destroy them along with those who have accepted
  the mark?"
  "What about people who are not Christians, and who, for argument’s
  sake, are also not ‘great crowd Christians,’ but who nevertheless
  unknowingly do good to Christ’s brothers"
  "If for arguments sake, the great crowd were to go to Heaven,
  then there would be no one left to survive here on earth, and
  if the ‘second’ resurrection were to take place only after the
  end of the 1000 year reign"
  I believe you are right that we may be taking for granted that we are all JW's
  the assumption is made that our views are similar or alike . I thought you were taking the GB's view on this subject.
  So in your opinion the Great Crowd has to be on earth so that the "anointed " or 144,000 will have someone to rule over?
  Also the Great Crowd are JW's and Non JW's? Or Christians and Non Christians?
  I know we want to revisit this later but we have been discussing this for days.. I'm curious...

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-02-16 22:54:51

  May I make an observation? Excessively long comments which ask many questions tend to be counter-productive when we are trying to carry on a discussion thread. This I say to all, without singling out anyone. I've been guilty of this myself, but I have found from experience that it is better to stick to a few questions, compartmentalizing one aspect of the discussion to seek a resolution of that element before moving on. That way we can build on each closed topic toward a resolution.
  When asked a question, let us make sure we answer it before asking questions of our own so that there are no loose ends dangling and no unresolved issues. Any questions we counter with should also be within the same theme. If not, then start a new thread for the new questions, so the old thread can continue on without being diverted, until it is closed following either a resolution or an agreement to disagree.

Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-16 20:37:02

I agree Alex. Or at the very least an article to begin the discussion in the comment section....

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-17 00:31:16

Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’
thanks for your views, and questions regarding mine; I greatly sympathize
with your disdain for some of the more unscriptural interpretations taught
by the WT,
and it makes me cringe being found in agreement with certain of their
interpretations, especially if they also are used in an unchristian and
abusive way to enslave people to their mediatorship, instead of to Christ,
who alone is the rightful intermediary between us and the Father.
But by the same token, I have to be strictly unbiased and read Scripture
the way the Spirit makes it appear to me, even if that should coincide
with what is also believed in by the enemies of truth; for even Satan
has to mix at least some truth into his teachings in order to make his
lies more palatable and believable.
As I said previously and elsewhere, the WT may yet be the closest
thing to the truth, which is what makes it so dangerous to people
who’s motives are tainted by inherited sin, to be misled by those
claiming to represent God.
Being the ‘closest thing’ to the truth is like having a banknote in
your pocket that is the closest thing to a genuine hundred Dollar bill,
which would instantly get you into deep trouble.
Just as John said: “NO lie originates with the truth!”
The moment the Holy Spirit makes us aware that certain teachings
are not in line with Scripture, our love of truth is severely tested,
to see if we really want to be true to it, regardless of the consequences.
Our hearts are treacherous and desperate; it is very hard to have an
objective view of one’s motives, but we know that our beliefs are
indicators of our will and desires, which allow us to self-diagnose
our inner self by means of the two-edged sword of God’s Word,
which is able to discern and refine our thoughts and the intentions
of our heart.
While nobody but God can judge what is going on in an individual’s
heart, we can assume and suggest to people believing in the god
of hellfire, for example, that their service to God may not be out
of love, but fear of torture, which is not healthy basis for a relationship
with the God of love.
Scripture strongly tells me that the heavenly calling to the kingdom of
God, starting at Pentecost, is still the ‘only game in town,’ so to speak,
but also that most people are not destined for that special future to
rule as kings and priests in the kingdom.
As long as those thus not of the priestly class do not in any way
assume control over the anointed, as is done especially by the
WT elders, those with earthly aspirations are free to preach faith
in Christ as much as they like, because after all, who knows that
God is not one day going to reveal the heavenly hope to them.
Phil.3:14,15
What is decidedly unhealthy though, is for believers of either
persuasion to use their service to God as a means for making
amends to Him for their shortcomings, because that is perhaps
the most subtle and insidious form of self-deception imperfect
people are capable of.
In my referring to the anointed as being ‘special’ and ‘elite,’
I say this from God’s perspective, not man’s, and certainly
not from their own estimation of themselves and behavior
towards others, because those who think themselves worthy,
are clearly not anointed.
No true son of God would ever assume to have a relationship with
the Father on your behalf while here on earth, but would always
try to connect you to Christ as the true source of light and life.
I have found that the spiritual pride you allude to is mostly
fostered in religious organizations, because outside of them
any believer is totally on their own with Christ, and has got
nothing to boast about but the grace of God, and it takes a
lot of faith to leave the ‘security’ of ‘God’s organization,’
and follow the Lamb no matter where He goes.
You are right, it makes perfect sense to me that all but the
144000 go to Heaven to rule over the perhaps hundreds
of millions of tribulation survivors,
and the perhaps 10 billion or so resurrected ones here on
earth during the 1000 years.
The criteria for surviving the great tribulation are very simple:
love truth, reject the mark of the incoming NWO kingdom,
and be kind to people in need without ulterior motive, that’s all.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2014-02-17 08:58:31

  I fully agree Ross. I personally have come full circle.
  Accepting JW theology 100%, to wanting to reject every last bit of it, trying even to convince myself that trinity was true perhaps (with no success). Some things I have refuted are clearly unbiblical.
  The pendulum swings us often to the other side once we learn of some falsehoods, such as the covering up of the word 'naos' by the WT. As a consequence, for many years I've held that perhaps JW are wrong about the nations, and a great multitude of them do go to heaven without being in the new covenant.
  But my pendulum hangs squarely in the center now, understanding that JW are more right than perhaps anyone else, if not for erroneous chronology. The big, sad, dramatic problem lies in the consequent covering up of the only true hope at this time, and lording over the faith of these other peoples, effectively shutting down these sheep's aspirations toward heaven.
  Say, why so much emphasis on works in the WT? Because they preach to people who have no faith. Because by works toward the anointed (the GB) they will earn mercy. Jehovah will show pity on them. And I DO BELIEVE THAT.
  But its lamentable. I could try over this. The WT does not write anything that develops true faith in these brothers. When I first read Charles Taze Russell's works, for all the flaws we well know, they spoke to me like my mother at my bedside. It touched my heart and soul.
  And the tragic thing is that I believe those who hope for earth ... they WILL lose heaven as a result of it. The irony is that they might end up llving on earth because they have not accepted the true life that is being offered. So the WT was true to them, but in effect closed the hope off. They have a form of faith but not the faith required of Christians.
  --
  These things said, I just discovered yesterday this amazing gem. I hope you guys check it out.
  "Wuest - The New Testament: An Expanded Translation"
  This is a greek thought-for-thought translation, check out the reviews on amazon etc.
  It's quite pricy but i got it via olivetree bible+ app for less than 10 dollar.
  It's quite amazing so far. It uses as many english words neccessary to convey the original emotion and intention in greek. Ill certainly be quoting from that translation more often in the future.

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-02-17 11:21:58

Alex -
We are in agreement. Many Christians in their sincerity are rejecting the heavenly call. I have no doubt that Christians truly love our Father and do they best they can to serve him. I believe that religion plays a big role in how much of the “truth” we actually receive.
I think of the rich young ruler who manifested an appreciation and love for the Christ but rejected the heavenly call from Christ himself because of his “personal issues” (Luke 18:18-23) There are people who reject this call because they don’t know what they are doing. Some are blinded by religion (that includes JW’s).
Most importantly we should not reject Christ or his role in our salvation. There are people that do not willfully or knowingly reject their Savior and Messiah. They just don’t recognize Him (John 1:10-11, Matthew 12:31-32) whether these ones will share in the heavenly kingdom to rule …. That is for Jesus to decide. However, any human who willfully and knowingly reject Jesus Christ as their Savior and this heavenly call will not be saved.
Ross- I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion. Perhaps we can settle this matter of the Great Crowd’s location by the fountains of waters in the future ? :) j/k
I have bitter moments but I am careful not to charge the GB with sin or judge their motives. My strong disagreement is not an attack on the GB.I just want the truth. However, some truth mixed with falsehoods does not equal “the truth”. I do not agree with the teachings of other religions such as Hellfire, Purgatory, immortality of the soul etc. But I do not consider them “false” religion nor do I judge them. I try not to keep score of which religion is more right than the other. IMHO it is divisive. I believe that the 1914, 144,000 teachings are just as dangerous as the ones I have mentioned.
As Meleti has stated before …. we have a Christian duty to point out wrongdoing. We can judge the actions without judging the men.
In the end, I trust that God will eventually set matters straight between all Christians.

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-17 19:59:46

Alex,
yes, it is a shame that the WT is covering up the heavenly hope,
and in the process of providing a pre-school type basic Bible
education for beginners, have now declared THAT to be all there
is to it,
which makes one suspect that the leadership also do not really
have the heavenly hope, because how can you be quiet about
something you passionately believe in, and which has
fundamentally redefined who you are?
With the recent ‘demotion’ of the anointed to the level of the
‘other sheep,’ and the already entrenched promotion of the
Elders, although being ‘spiritual foreigners,’ over the actual
members of Christ’s Body,
and everybody’s salvation dependent on a good standing before
these spiritual philistines, what use is there for Christ and His
gospel of entry into the kingdom of the Heavens?
So what to make of the WT, and all the rest of Christendom?
Just because the Father thus uses His nominal people to train,
refine and then expel His sons, does not mean that it is a
safe place to be for anybody else who is serious about
truth and God’s righteousness.
True, most people are slow learners and have to repeat a class
here and there, perhaps even several times, but it seems that
with few exceptions JW’s are always learning and yet never
able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth, so as to
graduate beyond the WT pre-school into discipleship of Christ.
OK, so you say that the WT attracts people who have no real
faith, which is quite an astute observation, because if they had
the simple faith of a child,
they would, upon hearing the Good News about their acquittal
before God, go home praising Him for their spiritual healing,
and tell others of like faith the Good News, but certainly NOT
enslave them to a system of bondage worse than the one they
themselves just escaped from.
It is the institutionalization of the message which is the problem
here, and that gets done by people who are without faith, just like
the Pharisees in Jesus’ time had codified and materialized spiritual
qualities like love, mercy, and devotion to God into observable
rituals and scheduled practices, all done ‘orderly and by
arrangement,’ as witnesses would say.
But I have to wonder if, and to what extent, God is going to have
mercy on those even unwittingly impugning His righteousness in
the process of establishing their own, by wanting to hold up their
end of the log, so to speak;
because if I know one thing about Him, He is not going to share
His glory with anybody, no matter who they think they are,
something even Satan profoundly misread Him in.
The problem with allegiance to religious organizations, WT or
others, is that, when it all comes to a head, people will end up
taking a strong and passionate stand for Satan,
due to the deeply ingrained deception that loyalty to the organization
equals loyalty to God, as it is revealed that all religions have
always been instruments of the Devil, sent by God to test the integrity
of man, just as the snake was in the garden of Eden.
But as always, the Father seems to delight in turning something
bad into a blessing for those true at heart, and why shouldn't He?
People who don’t know Him make the common mistake that, just
because God permits something, He must also be approving of it.
One thing I am pretty certain about: Just as every Catholic, or Baptist,
who somehow by the grace of God makes it into the new system,
will be ashamed of having belonged to their particular religion,
so will be every JW who makes it!
The temptation to misread the incoming kingdom, that is ‘about to
replace the present, wicked lawless system of things’ as the promised
kingdom of God, will be immense, especially for those who have been
'sweating’ for paradise all their lives, and are largely doing so for selfish
and mercenary reasons as their motives.
It may well be that, ironically, more ‘Christians’ will fall for the coming
deception, than those without that profession and conditioning.
And more tragically than just missing out on Heaven, in seeking to
work their way into the new system by means of their man pleasing
works, which ironically are demonstrating the obsolescence of
Christ’s sacrifice on their behalf,
the 'other sheep’ are actually going to miss out on the earthly paradise
as well, unless they repent now and turn around so as to enable the
Father to heal them before it is too late.
Yes, Scripture tells us that God always had an organized people
He dealt with here on earth, but it also tells us that He ALWAYS
wiped them out, with but a few remaining - and is it going to be
any different the next, and last, time He has to clean up the mess
caused by those misrepresenting Him?
We shouldn't think so.
Satan is cruel; he not only wants to deprive the sons of God of
their inheritance, but the subjects of the kingdom as well.
If he can trick a son into believing they are one of the ‘other sheep,’
or that their salvation depends on their ongoing obedience and
submission to ‘God’s spirit-directed organization,’
but also if he can trick someone whom God has not called to
Heaven, into believing that he has - which leads to immense
internal conflict between what he reads in Scripture, and the
reality he finds in himself, causing most people to lead a
double life of hypocrisy -
then Satan has equally won, and that is the danger, focusing
on A, while he is subverting B, and vice versa, either way
he wins.
However, I am convinced that no true son of God will ever be
deterred by flesh and blood, and their prestigious organizations,
to pursue his calling, no matter what,
and that anyone not so called, but of honest heart, will not be
able to be held in bondage indefinitely by an authority structure,
which, although having a form of godly devotion, is actually
proving false to its power.
Having said that, it is incredible to me that, while even those
not called to Heaven can see through the lies of the WT, there
are actually about 12000 and rising, of so called anointed ones
who can’t see it.
So much for anointing, which, according to Paul equates to a
once for all enlightening by the Holy Spirit into all the truth
as it is in Jesus. Heb. 6:4
Personally, and hence biased by my own experience, I would
rather have myself being found by Him, than chasing after One
whom I do not know, although I believe that both scenarios are
possible;
it is just that I didn't seemed to have it in me to look for something
which, if indeed it existed, I felt unworthy to aspire to - talk about
Grace upon Grace! Ro.10:20; 15:21

Comment by Ross on 2014-02-17 20:01:32

Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’
the pleasure is all mine, great to hear your thoughts, and I hope that
you might find something beneficial in mine.
I hear, and sympathize with, your reticence to judge things as true
or false, in order to not be seen as divisive.
However, apart from warning us that we would be judged by the
same standard with which we judge others, and hence, to be careful,
He also told us to judge for ourselves what is righteous,
because He came not to give peace on the earth, but DIVISION,
and this, not because He loved to stir up trouble and dissension,
but because He knew that it was in the very nature of truth to do
so, when it comes in contact with a people of lies. Lu.12:51,57
So there is no point to being shy about truth among people
professing it as their foremost concern in life, because either
party of a particular view will, if being honest, refine their grasp
of it to the benefit of all, since truth shines best in controversy
for all those loving it for its own beauty.
If the WT, and with it, JW’s in general, really believed they had
the truth, they would not be shrinking back from a free and
open discussion of it,
but as soon as a witness starts losing an argument scripturally,
and changes the subject, or all of a sudden remembers that he
left the stove on at home, his much vaunted love of truth is
exposed as a mere fraud.
But why bear witness to something one is not really so sure about,
and worse still, then also refuse to consider anything that would
disabuse one of any false notions one might have about what one
holds to be true?
Truth comes in measures; but regardless of how much truth we
have received, our LOVE of it MUST NEVER be less than total.
Of course, if ‘our truth’ is exposed as not so true after all, it
takes quite a bit of humility to accept the facts and integrate
them into our model, so to speak; after all if truth is really
what we are after,
we will be glad that we have been helped to refine our
understanding of it, no matter through whom it may
happen to come, because all truth ultimately originates
with the Father.