Be Modest in Walking with God

He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God? – Micah 6:8

According to the Insight book, Modesty is “an awareness of one’s limitations; also chastity or personal purity. The Hebrew root verb tsa·naʽ′ is rendered “be modest” in Micah 6:8, its only occurrence. The related adjective tsa·nu′aʽ (modest) occurs in Proverbs 11:2, where it is contrasted with presumptuousness.”[1]
The fact that tsana is contrasted with presumptuousness at Proverbs 11:2 indicates that this awareness of one’s limitations is not confined to the boundaries imposed by our human nature, but also those imposed by God. To be modest in walking with God is to recognize our place before Him. It means keeping in step with Him, recognizing that running ahead is as bad as falling behind. In accordance with the authority which God has granted us, we should use it to the fullest potential without either abusing it or failing to use it when action is called for. The person who says, “I can’t do that” when he can is just as immodest as the one who says “I can do that” when he can’t.

Applying Micah 6:8

One of the most controversial practices of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses is that of disfellowshipping. In discussing the various aspects of this policy, I came to realize that the simple requirements of Jehovah laid down in Micah 6:8 for all his subjects could be used to throw much light on the subject. In this, the third installment,[2] I was planning on reviewing in detail the policies and practices of our judicial system to see if and how they conform to Scripture. The result was a very negative article because frankly, they don’t. It does little good to simply criticise, to highlight the imperfections in another, unless you are also willing to offer up a solution. Yet in this matter, it is not for me to provide a solution. That would be most immodest, because the solution has always been there, right in God’s word. All that is required is for us to see it. However, that may not be as easy at is sounds.

Avoiding Bias

The motto of this site is “Striving for unbiased Bible research”. This is no small goal. Bias is very difficult to eradicate. It comes in various disguises: Prejudice, preconceptions, traditions, even personal preference. It is hard to avoid the trap Peter referred to of believing what we want to believe rather than what is in front of our eyes.[3] As I researched this topic, I found that even when I thought I had eliminated these negative influences, I found them creeping back in. To be honest, I cannot even now be sure I’m completely free of them, but it is my hope that you, gentle reader, will help me to identify any that survived my purge.

Disfellowshipping and Christian Modesty

The words “disfellowshipping” and “disassociation” do not appear in the Bible. For that matter, neither do related words used by other Christian denominations such as “excommunication”, “shunning”, “ostracising” and “expelling”. Nevertheless, there is direction in the Christian Scriptures intended to protect the congregation and the individual Christian from a corrupting influence.
As it pertains to this subject, if we are “to be modest in walking with our God”, we have to know where the limits are. These are not only limits which Jehovah—or more precisely for the Christian—which Jesus has placed via his legal instructions, but also limits imposed by the nature of imperfect humankind.
We know that men should not rule men, for it does not belong to man “even to direct his step.”[4] Likewise, we cannot see into the heart of a man so as to judge his motivation. All we are really capable of judging are the actions of an individual and even there we must tread carefully so as not to misjudge and sin ourselves.
Jesus would not set us up to fail. Therefore, any instruction he gives us on this topic would have to fall within our grasp.

Categories of Sin

Before we get into the nitty-gritty, let it be understood that we are going to be dealing with three distinct categories of sin. The proof of this will be provided as we go along, but for now let’s establish that there are sins of a personal nature that don’t lead to disfellowshipping; sins which are more serious and may lead to disfellowshipping; and finally, sins which are criminal, that is sins where Caesar gets involved.

Disfellowshipping—Handling Sins of a Criminal Nature

Let us handle this one up front, since it could cloud the rest of our discussion if we don’t get it out of the way up first.

(Romans 13:1-4) . . .Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. ² Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. ³ For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; ⁴ for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.

There are some sins which the congregation is not fully equipped to handle. Murder, rape, and child abuse are examples of sinful conduct that is criminal in nature and therefore goes beyond our limitations; beyond what we can fully handle. To deal with such things exclusively within the congregation framework would not be walking modestly with our God. To hide such sins from the superior authorities would be to show a disregard for those whom Jehovah has placed as his ministers for expressing wrath against evildoers. If we ignore the authorities God himself has placed, we are putting ourselves above God’s arrangement. Can anything good come of disobeying God in this way?
As we are about to see, Jesus directs the congregation on how to deal with sinners in its midst, whether we are speaking of a single incident or a long term practice. So even the sin of child abuse must be dealt with congregationally. However, we must first recognize the aforementioned principle and hand the man over to the authorities as well. We are not the only Christian denomination that has tried to hide its dirty laundry from the world. In our case, we would reason that to reveal these things would bring reproach on the name of Jehovah. However, there is no excuse for disobedience to God. Even assuming our intentions were good—and I’m not arguing they were—there is no justification for failing to walk with God in modesty by obeying his direction.
There is abundant evidence that this policy of ours has been a disaster, and we are now beginning to reap what we have sown. God is not one to be mocked.[5] When Jesus gives us a command and we disobey, we cannot expect things to turn out well, no matter how we have tried to justify our disobedience.

Disfellowshipping—Handling Sins of a Personal Nature

Now that we’ve cleared the air on how to deal with the most atrocious of sinners, let’s move to the other end of the spectrum.

(Luke 17:3, 4) Pay attention to yourselves. If your brother commits a sin, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. ⁴ Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

It is obvious that Jesus is talking here about sins of a personal and relatively minor nature. It would be ridiculous to include the sin of, say, rape, in this scenario. Notice also that there are only two options: Either you forgive your brother or you do not. The criteria for forgiveness is an expression of repentance. So you can and should rebuke the one who has sinned. Either he then repents—not to God, but to you, indicating against whom the sin was committed—in which case you must forgive him; or he doesn’t repent, in which case you have no obligation to forgive him at all. This bears repeating because I have often had brothers and sisters approach me because they have found it hard to forgive some transgression committed against them by another. Yet, they have been led to believe through our publications and from the platform that we must forgive all slights and transgressions if we are to imitate the Christ. Notice however that the forgiveness he commands us to grant is conditional on repentance. No repentance; no forgiveness.
(This isn’t to say that we cannot forgive another even if there is no spoken expression of repentance. Repentance can be expressed in various ways. It is up to each to decide. Of course, a lack of repentance doesn’t give us the right to bear a grudge. Love covers a multitude of sins.[6] Forgiveness wipes the slate clean.[7] In this, as in everything, there must be balance.)
Notice also that no mention is made of escalating this process beyond the personal. The congregation does not get involved, nor does anyone else for that matter. These are sins of a minor and personal nature. After all, a man who commits fornication seven times a day would definitely qualify to be called a fornicator, and we are told at 1 Corinthians 5:11 to quit mixing in company with such a man.
Now let’s look at the other scriptures that touch on the matter of disfellowshipping. (Given the extensive catalogue of rules and regulation we have built up over the years to cover all things judicial, it may surprise you to see just how little the Bible has to say on the subject.)

Disfellowshipping—Handling More Serious Personal Sins

We have many Letters to Bodies of Elders from the Governing Body, as well as numerous Watchtower articles and whole chapters in the Shepherd the Flock of God book which lay down the rules and regulations governing our organizational system of jurisprudence. How odd then to learn that the only formalized procedural process for dealing with sin in the Christian congregation was expressed by Jesus in just three short verses.

(Matthew 18:15-17) “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. ¹⁷ If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

What Jesus is referring to are sins of a personal nature, though obviously these are sins which are a step up in gravity from those he spoke of at Luke 17:3, 4, because these can end with a disfellowshipping.
In this rendering, Jesus gives no indication that the sin referred to is personal in nature. So one could arrive at the conclusion that this is how one deals with all sin in the congregation. However, this is one of many examples where the translators of the NWT have been sloppy. The interlinear rendering of this passage clearly shows that the sin is committed “against you”. So we are talking about sins like slander, stealing, fraud, etc.
Jesus tells us to deal with the matter privately in the first attempt. However, if that fails, one or two individuals (witnesses) are brought in to bolster the appeal for the offender to see reason and repent. If the second attempt fails, then does Jesus tell us to take the matter before a committee of three? Does he tell us to engage in a secret session? No, he tells us to take the matter before the congregation. Like a public trial for slander, stealing, or fraud, this final stage is public. The whole congregation gets involved. This makes sense, because it is the whole congregation which must engage in dealing with the man as a tax collector or man of the nations. How can they conscientiously do so—throw the first stone, as it were—without knowing why?
At this stage we find the first major departure between what the Bible says and what we practice as Jehovah’s Witnesses. At stage 3, the offended individual is instructed to go to one of the elders, assuming that neither of the other witnesses used in stage 2 are elders. The elder he contacts will talk with the Coordinator of the Body of Elders (COBE) who will call an elders meeting to appoint a committee. Often, at these elders meetings, the nature of the sin is not revealed even to the elders, or if it is revealed, it is done only in the most general of terms. We do this so as to protect the confidentiality of all involved. Only the three elders appointed to judge the case will know all the details.
Jesus says nothing about some alleged need to protect the confidentiality of the offender or the offended. He says nothing about going to the older men only, nor does he mention the appointment of a committee of three. There is no precedent in Scripture, neither under the Jewish judicial system nor in the history of the first century congregation to support our practice of secret committees meeting in secret session to handle judicial matters. What Jesus said was to take the matter before the congregation. Anything else is “going beyond the things that are written”.[8]

Disfellowshipping—Handling General Sins

I have used the inadequate term, “general sins”, to encompass those sins which are not criminal in nature but rise above the personal, such as idolatry, spiritism, drunkenness and fornication. Excluded from this group are sins related to apostasy for reasons we shall soon see.
Given that Jesus gave his disciples a precise step-by-step procedure to follow in dealing with sins of a personal nature, one would think that he would have also laid out a procedure to follow in the case of general sins. Our highly structured organizational mindset begs for such a judicial procedure to be spelled out for us. Alas, there is none, and its absence is most telling.
There is really only one account in the Christian Greek Scriptures of a judicial process in any way similar to what we practice today. In the ancient city of Corinth, there was a Christian who was fornicating in a way that was so notorious even the pagans were shocked. In the first letter to the Corinthians Paul instructed them to “remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.” Then, when the man exhibited a change of heart some months later, Paul exhorted the brothers to welcome him back for fear that he might be swallowed up by Satan.[9]
Almost everything that we need to know about the judicial procedure within the Christian congregation can be found in this one account. We will learn:

What qualifies as a disfellowshipping offence?

How are we to treat the sinner?

Who determines if a sinner is to be disfellowshipped?

Who determines if a sinner is to be reinstated?

The answer to these four questions can be found in these few verses:

(1 Corinthians 5:9-11) In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, ¹⁰ not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. ¹¹ But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

(2 Corinthians 2:6) This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man…

What Qualifies As a Disfellowshipping Offense?

Fornicators, idolaters, revilers, drunkards, extortioners...this is hardly an exhaustive list but there is a commonality here. He is not describing sins, but sinners. For example, we all have lied at some time, but does that qualify us to be called liars? To put it another way, if I play the occasional game of golf or baseball, does that make me a sportsman? If a man gets drunk on one or two occasions, would we call him an alcoholic.
Paul’s list of actionable sins would certainly include the works of the flesh which he listed to the Galatians:

(Galatians 5:19-21) . . .Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, ²⁰ idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, ²¹ envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

Again, notice that he uses the plural. Even the mass nouns are expressed in such a way as to indicate a course of action or a state of being rather than isolated incidents of sin.
Let us leave it at that for now since this understanding is crucial in answering the other questions under consideration.

How Are We to Treat the Sinner?

The Greek word the NWT translates with the phrase “stop keeping company” is a compound verb, made up of three words: sun, ana, mignuni; literally, “to mix up with”. If you simply drop black paint in a can of white without mixing it thoroughly, would you expect it to turn grey? Likewise, to carry on a casual conversation with someone is hardly the same as mixing in company with him. The question is, where do you draw the line? Paul helps us to set a reasonable limit by adding the exhortation, “…not even eating with such a man.” This indicates that some in his audience would not have immediately understood ‘mixing in company’ to include having a meal with the person. Paul is here saying that in this case, it would be going too far even to eat with the individual.
Notice that in drawing the line, Paul stops at “not even eating with such a man.” He says nothing about cutting off all contact with him. Nothing is said about not even saying hello or having a casual conversation. If while shopping we were to meet a former brother who we had stopped associating with because we knew him to be a drunkard or a fornicator, we could still say hello, or ask him how he had been faring. No one would take that for mixing in company with him.
This understanding is critical to answering the following questions.

Who Determines If a Sinner Is to Be Disfellowshipped?

Remember, we are not allowing bias or indoctrination to restrict our thinking process. Rather, we want to stick with what the Bible says and not go beyond it.
Given that, let’s start with an example. Say two sisters are working at the same firm. One begins an affair with a co-worker. She commits fornication, possibly more than once. What Bible principle should guide the actions of the other sister? Obviously, love should motivate her to approach her friend to help her to come back to her senses. If she won her over, would she still be required to report this to the elders, or would the sinner need to make confession to men? Certainly such a serious, potentially life altering step would be spelled out somewhere in the Christian Scriptures.
“But isn’t it up to the elders to decide?”, you may say.
The question is, where does it say that? In the case of the Corinthian congregation, Paul’s letter was not addressed to the body of elders but to the entire congregation.
Still you might say, “I am not qualified to judge someone’s repentance, or lack thereof.” Well said. You are not. Neither is any other man. That is why Paul mentions nothing about judging repentance. You can see with your own eyes whether a brother is a drunkard. His actions speak louder than his words. You don’t need to know what is in his heart to determine whether to continue fellowship with him.
But what if he says he only did it the once and has stopped. How do we know he isn’t continuing the sin secretly. We don’t. We are not God’s police force. We have no mandate to interrogate our brother; to sweat the truth out of him. If he fools us, he fools us. So what? He’s not fooling God.

What Determines If the Sinner Is to Be Reinstated?

In short, the same thing that determines if he is to be disfellowshipped. For instance, if a brother and sister moved in together without benefit of marriage, you would not want to continue to associate with them, would you? That would be in effect approving of their illicit relationship. If however, they got married, their status would have changed. Would it be logical—more important, would it be loving—to continue to disassociate yourself from someone who has set their life straight?
If you reread 2 Corinthians 2:6, you will notice that Paul says, “This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man.” When Paul wrote the first letter to the Corinthians, it was up to each individual to make an assessment. It seems that the majority were in line with Paul’s thinking. A minority perhaps were not. Obviously, there would be Christians at all levels of development in any given congregation. However the rebuke, given by the majority, was sufficient to correct this brother’s thinking and bring him to repentance. However, there was a danger that the Christians would take his sin personally and wish to punish him. This was not the purpose of the rebuke, nor is it in the purview of one Christian to punish another. The danger of doing this is that one might be blood-guilty by causing the little one to be lost to Satan.

General Sins – a Summary

So with the exclusion of apostasy, if there is a brother (or sister) in the congregation who is engaging in a sinful course of conduct, despite our attempts to bring him to his senses, we should simply decide personally and individually to cease association with such a one. If they cease their course of sinful conduct, then we should welcome them back into the congregation so that they do not get lost to the world. It really is no more complicated than that. This process works. It has to, because it comes from our Lord.

Disfellowshipping—Handling the Sin of Apostasy

Why does the Bible deal with the sin of apostasy[10] differently from that of the other sins we have discussed? For example, if my former brother is a fornicator, I can still talk with him though I will not keep company with him. However, if he is an apostate I will not even say hello to him.

(2 John 9-11) . . .Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. ¹⁰ If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. ¹¹ For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

There is a marked difference between someone who is a fornicator versus someone who promotes fornication. This is comparable to the difference between the Ebola virus and cancer. One is contagious and the other is not. However, let’s not take the analogy too far. Cancer cannot morph into the Ebola virus. However, a fornicator (or any other sinner for that matter) can morph into an apostate. In the congregation of Thyatira, there was a woman called Jezebel ‘who called herself a prophetess and taught and misled others in the congregation to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed idols.’[11]
Notice however that John does not tell us that it is some body of elders that decides whether or not an apostate is to be disfellowshipped from the congregation. He simply says, “if anyone comes to you…” If a brother or sister came to you claiming to be God’s prophet and telling you that it’s okay to commit sexual immorality, do you have to wait around for some judicial committee to tell you to stop associating with that person?

Disfellowshipping—Going Beyond the Things Written

Personally, I don’t like the term “disfellowshipping” nor any of its bedfellows: excommunication, shunning, etc. You coin a term because you need a way to describe a procedure, policy or process. The instruction Jesus gives us on dealing with sin is not some policy that has to be labelled. The Bible puts all the control into the hands of the individual. A religious hierarchy eager to protect its authority and maintain control over the flock will not be happy with such an arrangement.
Since we now know what the Bible instructs us to do, let us compare that with what we actually do within the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The Informant Process

If you witness a brother or sister getting drunk at a public gathering, you are instructed to approach them to encourage them to go to the elders. You are to give them some time, a few days, and then talk to the elders yourself just in case they failed to follow your advice. In short, if you witness a sin you are required to report it to the elders. If you do not report it, you are considered to be complicit in the sin. The basis for this goes back to the Jewish law. However, we are not under Jewish law. There was a great deal of dispute in the first century about the circumcision issue. There were those who wished to implement this Jewish custom within the Christian congregation. The Holy Spirit directed them not to do so, and eventually those who continued to promote this idea were to be removed from the Christian congregation; Paul making no small bones about how he felt about such Judaizers.[12] By implementing the Jewish informant system, we are like modern-day Judaizers, replacing new Christian law with outdated Jewish law.

When Manmade Rules Count More Than Scriptural Principles

Paul makes it clear that we are to quit mixing in company with a man who is a fornicator, idolater, etc. He is obviously talking about a practice of sin, but what constitutes a practice? Our judicial system is not comfortable with principles, though we often give them lip service. For example, if I went to the driving range and hit only three golf balls, then told you that I practiced my golf swing, you’d probably have to stifle a laugh, or perhaps you’d just nod and back away slowly. So how would you feel if you got drunk on two occasions and the elders accused you of engaging in a practice of sin?
In giving elders direction on determining repentance, our Organization’s judicial handbook asks “Was it a single offense, or was it a practice?”[13] On numerous occasions, I have seen where this mentality has led. It has guided elders, and the circuit and district overseers who direct them, to consider a second offense as a practice which indicates a hardening of the heart. I have seen the “practice” that two or three occurrences represents be the determining factor on whether to disfellowship.

Determining Repentance

Paul’s direction to the Corinthians is simple. Is the person committing the sin? Yes. Then don’t associate with him anymore. Obviously, if he’s no longer committing the sin, there’s no reason to break off association.
That simply will not do for us however. We have to determine repentance. We have to try to peer into the heart of our brother or sister and determine whether or not they really mean what they say when they say they’re sorry. I have been on more than my fair share of judicial cases. I have seen sisters in tears who still will not leave their lovers. I have known ultra-reserved brothers who give no outward hint at what is in their heart, but whose subsequent conduct indicated a repentant spirit. There really is no way for us to know for sure. We are talking about sins against God, and even if a fellow Christian is hurt, ultimately it is only God who can grant forgiveness. So why do we tread on God’s territory and presume to judge the heart of our fellow?
To show where this need to determine repentance leads, let us look at the issue of automatic disfellowshipping. From the Shepherd the Flock of God book, we have:
9. While there is no such thing as automatic disfellowshipping, an individual may have gone so far into sin that he may not be able to demonstrate sufficient repentance to the judicial committee at the time of the hearing. If so, he must be disfellowshipped. [Boldface in original; italics added for emphasis][14]
So here’s a scenario. A brother has been secretly smoking marijuana off and on for a year. He goes to the circuit assembly and there’s a part on holiness that cuts him to the heart. He goes to the elders the following Monday and confesses his sin. They meet with him that Thursday. Less than a week has passed since his last smoke. Not enough time for them to know with any reasonable certainly that he will continue to refrain from lighting up. So, he must be disfellowshipped! Yet, we claim that we have no such things as automatic disfellowshipping. We are speaking out of both sides of our mouth. The irony is that if the brother had kept the sin to himself, waited a few months, then revealed it, he would not be disfellowshipped because sufficient time had transpired for the brothers to see “signs of repentance”. How ridiculous this policy makes us look.
Could it be more clear why the Bible does not direct elders to determine repentance? Jesus would not set us up to fail, which is exactly what we are doing over and over by trying to read the heart of our brother.

The Requirement to Confess Our Sins to Men

Why would the brother in this scenario even bother to come to the elders? There is no Scriptural requirement for us to confess our sins to our brothers in order to be forgiven. He would have simply repented to God and ceased the practice. I know of cases where a brother sinned secretly over 20 years in the past, yet felt the need to confess it to the elders to be “right with God”. This mentality is so engrained in our brotherhood, that even though we say that the elders are not “father confessors”, we treat them as if they were and do not feel that God has forgiven us until some man says he has.
There is a provision for confessing sins to men, but its purpose isn’t the procurement of God’s forgiveness through the hands of humans. Rather, it is about getting needed help and to aid in healing.

(James 5:14-16) ¹⁴ Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. ¹⁵ And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. ¹⁶ Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect.

Notice that this isn’t direction for us to confess all our sins to men. Verse 15 indicates that forgiveness of sins could even be incidental to the process. Someone is sick and needs help and [incidentally] “if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”
We might compare this to a doctor. No doctor can heal you. The human body heal itself; so ultimately, it is God who does the healing. The physician can just make the process work better, faster, and guide you on what you need to do to facilitate it.
Verse 16 talks about openly confessing our sins to one another, not publishers to elders, but each Christian to his fellow. The elders should be doing this as much as the next brother. Its purpose is for the upbuilding of the individual as well as the collective. It is not part of some unstated judicial process where humans judge other humans and evaluate their level of repentance.
Where is our sense of modesty in any of this? It is clearly outside of our capabilities—therefore, outside of our limits—to evaluate the repentant heart condition of anyone. All we can do is observe one’s actions. If a brother has been smoking pot or getting drunk repeatedly in the privacy of his own home, and if he then comes to us to confess his sins and seek our help, we must give it. Nothing is stated in Scripture about our first needing to evaluate whether he is worthy of this help. The fact he came to us indicates he is worthy of it. However, we don’t deal with these situations that way. If a brother has become an alcoholic, we require that he first desist from drinking for a long enough period of time for us to determine his repentance. Only then can we give him the help he needs. That would be like a doctor telling a patient, “I can’t help you until you get better.”
Returning to the case of Jezebel in the Thyatira congregation, here we have an individual who is not simply sinning, but encouraging others to do so. Jesus tells the angel of that congregation, “…I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of the sexual immorality. Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.”[15] Jesus had already given her time to repent, but he’d reached the limit of his patience. He was going to throw her into a sickbed and her followers into tribulation, but even then, there was still the possibility for repentance and salvation.
If she were around today, we’d toss her out on her backside at the first or second instance of her sin. Even if she or her followers repented, we’d likely disfellowship them just to teach the rest a lesson about what happens if you disobey our laws. So which way is better? Obviously the tolerance Jesus demonstrated to Jezebel and her followers is far in excess of what we practice today. Is our way better than Jesus’? Was he being too forgiving? Too understanding? A little too permissive, perhaps? One would certainly think so given that we would never allow such a condition to exist without prompt and decisive action.
Of course, there is always the possibility, and I know this suggestion is way out in left field, but there is always the possibility that maybe, just maybe, we could learn a thing or two from the way Christ deals with these situations.

Causing Others to Sin

It is clear from what we have studied so far that the way we are to deal with the sinner in the general sense varies from how the Bible instructs us to deal with the apostate. It would be wrong to treat someone guilty of the type of sin Paul lists in 2 Corinthians 5 in the same manner as we would treat the apostate that John describes in his second letter. The trouble is that our current system denies the congregation member the necessary knowledge for him to know the proper course of action to take. The transgressor’s sin is kept secret. The details are kept secret. All we know is that a person has been pronounced as disfellowshipped by a committee of three men. Perhaps he couldn’t give up smoking cigarettes. Perhaps he just wanted to resign from the congregation. Or perhaps he was prompting devil worship. We just don’t know, so all transgressors get tarred with the same brush. All are treated the way the Bible instructs us to treat apostates, not even saying a greeting to such ones. Jesus commands us to treat an unrepentant drunkard or fornicator a certain way, but we say, “Sorry, Lord Jesus, but no can do. The Governing Body is telling me to treat them all like apostates.” Imagine if our worldly judicial system worked this way. All prisoners would have to get the same sentence and it would have to be the worst possible sentence, be they a pickpocket or a serial killer.

A Bigger Sin

Another way that this process causes us to sin is very grave indeed. The Bible says those who stumble the little one might as well have a millstone tied around their neck and be tossed into the deep blue sea. Not a comforting image, is it?
I have known cases where a sinner has actually come forward to confess a sin to the elders, having desisted from it (in one case for three months) but because he had carried it out repeatedly and in secret, possibly after being counseled against an unwise course of action that might lead to sin, the elders felt it necessary to disfellowship him. The reasoning is, ‘He was warned. He should have known better. Now he thinks all he has to do is say “I’m sorry” and all is forgiven? Not going to happen.’
To disfellowship a repentant individual who has desisted from his sin is fleshly thinking. This is shunning as punishment. It is the mentality of “You do the crime. You do the time.” This mentality is supported by direction we get from the governing body. For example, elders have been warned that some married couples wishing to obtain a scriptural divorce have conspired for one of the two to commit a single act of fornication so as to give them scriptural grounds. We are warned to be wary of this and if we believe this is the case, that we should not quickly reinstate the disfellowshipped individual. We are instructed to do this so that others do not follow in the same course. This is very much a mentality of deterrence based on punishment. It is how the judicial system of the world works. There simply is no place for it in the Christian congregation. In fact, it shows a lack of faith. No one can fool Jehovah, and it is his role not ours to deal with wrongdoers.
Think about how Jehovah dealt with the repentant King Manasseh?[16] Who do you know that has come anywhere close to the level of sin that he achieved. There was no “prison sentence” for him; no extended period of time in which to prove his true repentance.
We also have the Christian era example of the prodigal son.[17] In the video of the same name released by the Watchtower society last year, the son returning to his parents was required to report his sin to the elders. They would decide whether he could return or not. If they had decided against—and in real life, I would have given the young man a 50/50 chance they would have said “No”—he would have been denied the help and encouragement he needed from his family. He would have been on his own, to fend for himself. In his weakened state, he might very likely have returned to his worldly friends, the only support system left to him. If his parents had decided to take him in despite the disfellowshipping, they would have been considered as disloyal to the Organization and the decision of the elders. Privileges would have been removed, and they would have been threatened with disfellowshipping themselves.
Contrast his very real scenario—for it has happened countless times in our Organization—with the lesson Jesus was trying to communicate through this parable. The father forgave the son at a distance—“while he was still a long way off”—and welcomed his son back with great rejoicing.[18] He didn’t sit down with him and try to determine his true level of repentance. He didn’t say, “You’ve only just returned. How do I know you are sincere; that you’re not going to go off and do it all again? Let’s give you some time to show your sincerity and then we’ll decide what to do with you.”
That we could use the illustration of the prodigal son to lend support to our judicial system and get away with it is a shocking indictment to the degree to which we have been indoctrinated into thinking this system is just and originates with God.

Involving Us in Their Sin

Paul warned the Corinthians not to keep the man they had removed from their midst outside for fear that he might give in to sadness and be lost. His sin was scandalous in nature and notorious, so that even the pagans were aware of it. Paul didn’t say to the Corinthians that they needed to keep the man out for a good period of time so that the people of the nations would realize we don’t put up with that kind of behavior. His first concern wasn’t how the congregation would be perceived, nor was he concerned for the sanctity of Jehovah’s name. His concern was for the individual. Losing a man to Satan would not sanctify the name of God. It would bring God’s anger however. So Paul is exhorting them to return the man so as to save him.[19] This second letter was written within the same year, possibly only a few months after the first.
However, our modern-day application has left many languishing in a disfellowshipped state for 1, 2 or even more years—long after they ceased practicing the sins for which they were disfellowshipped. I have known cases where the individual stopped sinning before the judicial hearing and yet was disfellowshipped for almost two years.
Now here is where they involve us in their sin. If we see the that disfellowshipped individual is going downhill spiritually, and try to render aid so that he is not “overreached by Satan”, we will be in danger of being disfellowshipped ourselves.[20] We punish with the greatest severity all who do not respect the decision of the elders. We have to wait on their decision to reinstate the individual. Yet Paul’s words were not directed to a committee of three, but to the entire congregation.

(2 Corinthians 2:10) . . .If you forgive anyone for anything, I do also.. . .

In Summation

The Bible puts the responsibility to deal with sinners into the hands of the Christian—that’s you and me—not into the hands of human leaders, a religious hierarchy or overlord. Jesus tells us how to deal with minor and major sins of a personal nature. He tells how to deal with those who sin against God and practice their sins while claiming to be our brothers and sisters. He tells us how to deal with sins of a criminal nature and even sins of apostasy. All this power lies in the hands of the individual Christian. Of course, there is guidance that we can obtain from the older men, “those taking the lead among you”. However, the ultimate responsibility on how to deal with sinners lies with us individually. There is no provision in scripture that authorizes us to surrender that responsibility to another, no matter how august and spiritual the individual claims to be.
Our current judicial system requires us to report sins to a group of men in the congregation. It authorizes those men to determine repentance; to decide who stays and who goes. It mandates that all their meetings, records and decisions be kept in secret. It denies us the right to know the issues and requires us to put blind faith in the decision made by a group of three men. It punishes us if we conscientiously refuse to obey these men.
There is nothing in the law the Christ imparted while on earth, nor in the apostolic letters, nor in the vision of John to give support to any of this. The rules and regulations that define our judicial process with its three-man committees, secret meetings, and harsh punishments is nowhere—I repeat, NOWHERE—to be found in Scripture. We have made it all up ourselves, claiming that it is done under the direction of Jehovah God.

What Will You Do?

I am not talking rebellion here. I am talking obedience. We owe our Lord Jesus and our heavenly Father our unconditional obedience. They have given us their law. Will we obey it?
The power that the Organization wields is an illusion. They would have us believe that their power comes from God, but Jehovah does not empower those who disobey him. The control they exercise of our minds and hearts is due to the power that we grant them.
If a disfellowshipped brother or sister is languishing in sadness and in danger of being lost, we have an obligation to help. What can the elders do if we act? If the entire congregation were to welcome the individual back, then what can the elders do? Their power is an illusion. We give it to them by our complacent obedience, but if we obey the Christ instead, we strip them of all power that goes contrary to his righteous decrees.
Of course, if we stand alone, while the rest continue to obey men, we are in danger. However, that may just be the price we have to pay to stand up for righteousness. Jesus and Jehovah love courageous people; people who act out of faith, knowing that what we do in obedience will not go unnoticed nor unrewarded by our King and our God.
We can be cowards or we can be conquerors.

(Revelation 21:7, 8) Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son. ⁸ But as for the cowards and those without faith…their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

To view the next article in this series, click here.

[1] Modesty (from Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p. 422)
[2] For previous installments, see “Exercise Justice” and “Love Kindness”.
[3] 2 Peter 3:
[4] Jeremiah 10:23
[5] Galatians 6:7
[6] 1 Peter 4:
[7] Isaiah 1:18
[8] 1 Corinthians 4:6
[9] 1 Corinthians 5:13; 2 Corinthians 2:5-11
[10] For purposes of this discussion, any reference to apostasy or apostates is to be understood from the Bible viewpoint of one who opposes God and his Son. One who through word or action, denies the Christ and his teachings. This would include those who claim to worship and obey the Christ, but teach and act in a way that demonstrates they really stand in opposition to him. Unless specifically stated, the term “apostate” does not apply to those who deny the teachings of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses (or any other faith for that matter). While opposition to a church’s doctrinal framework is often viewed by the church authorities as apostasy, we are only concerned with how the ultimate authority in the universe views it.
[11] Revelation 2:20-23
[12] Galatians 5:12
[13] ks 7:8 p. 92
[14] ks 7:9 p. 92
[15] Revelation 2:21, 22
[16] 2 Chronicles 33:12, 13
[17] Luke 15:11-32
[18] Luke 15:20
[19] 2 Corinthians 2:8-11
[20] 2 Corinthians 2:11

Archived Comments

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Comment by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-03-11 18:20:16
A big thank you for your hard work on this outstanding article Meleti. You have been very thorough with the scriptures and separated the issues in a new way to me. I can certainly testify to the accuracy of every situation you have used by way of example. You have both affirmed my existing concerns and raised some new lines of thinking for consideration.
I know this took a lot of work and thought. I am sure that many will benefit from it.
Apollos

Comment by Dorcas on 2014-03-11 19:24:48
This is one of the finest articles I've ever read. Thank you so much for breaking things down into sections. You've given me so much to consider.
Why oh why do we continue to sidestep the clear directions from the Scriptures on how to respond to wrongdoers?
As you say, we are bringing more reproach on Jehovah by our unloving actions than the wrongdoer did by his.
Thank you again for the time and energy you put into running this site. It is sincerely appreciated.

Comment by umbertoecho on 2014-03-11 21:38:57
Thank you Meleti for this concise piece of writing. I know there are many die hard's who would refuse this information; I also know many who will be reading this and praying that something will change within the org. This site has helped me so much in a time when I felt so left out and alone.

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-11 22:20:10
This is a true act of love on your part Meleti. I can feel the terrible struggle you must have gone through to acknowledge that the Governing Body has misled the congregation into acting contrary to Jesus own words, in a fair and unbiased way. Some things you just can't sugar coat. And when you are speaking the truth, it stands on its own, it is not criticism in my view. Whether we accept the real truth is up to each one of us individually. From personal experience, it is excruiciatingly painful when you try to sit at the top of the fence. For one thing, there is really nothing under your bottom, and you can't balance yourself on top of the fence forever. You will eventually come down on one side of the fence or the other. You may end up broken, but no situation lasts forever and you will eventually heal.
When I was in the "truth", every time someone I knew was disfellowshipped or disassociated themselves; and then were shunned, it always bothered my conscience to treat a fellow human being so hatefully. At first I was strong and obeyed the rules. Over time though I would come upon a discarded, thrown away person, I felt pity for them, even hugged them through tears....because it was what my heart told me to do. I did not take up association with them, but I could not ignore them anymore. It never made sense to me that if we wanted that lost one back, why would we abandon them after we had put them at their seemingly lowest point?
Jehovah's Witnesses are kind and loving people, yet they are kinder to complete strangers who may be serial killers or child rapists, for all anybody knows, than they are to those disfellowshipped or those who disassociate themselves. There is a big difference between sinning one time, or even more, or questioning a doctrine of JWs; and, in embracing a whole different lifestyle contrary to Scripture. It's so sad that the governing body does not see that difference...and show more mercy. I feel certain THEY are going to want mercy at some point in time, just as we all will.
You are competely correct, we do abdicate our personal responsibility to follow our Saviour, and then hide behind the facade of obeying the faithful and discreet slave, completely quashing that inner voice that used to be our conscience. After all, it is what the GB instructs us to do. And we want to be in unity with everybody else.
The most joyous thing about this...is that once we acknowledge the reality and the gravity of the situation, and begin to accept it, we can begin to take that power back. Since we haven't used our own power in a very long time, we will be weak and it will not be easy to take personal responsibility for ourselves....and answer to Christ directly. I believe he welcomes us with open arms.
I was once told that you can eat an entire elephant...if you do it one bite at the time.
I'm still working on my elephant, but I am getting there!
I wish love and encouragement to all my dear brothers and sisters.

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-11 22:24:24
I agree with much of your article here, but what indeed does determine one to be an "Apostate"?
For instance I have reasoned on this forum in the past that the Urantia book can be of value for us Christians today, and have also stated that while I do not believe that the entire Bible Cannon in itself can be classified as God's word, I have clearly stated that I view much of it's texts as being of value for all Christians today and particularly the Gospel writings about Jesus and what he taught, yet I do believe that at least some of you here, including yourself view me as an "Apostate".
What are your thoughts on this as to what determines one to be an Apostate, in the true sense of the word?
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-11 23:44:01
  Rather than give a hasty answer, I'll be preparing another post on the topic of Apostasy.
- Reply by Joel on 2014-03-12 11:35:21
  Hi A searcher for truth
  Quite simply, my understanding is that apostacy is determined by the words preached. As long as you refrain from offering something as truth, when it is not supported by scripture, or qualify what you say based on scripture then it is not necesssarily apostacy. I'm not sure what parts of the bible cannon you question, or how you have determined that they do not qualify, since the 66 books which are generally accepted are already a slightly reduced subset of the potential number of books/letters that could potentially be included. Moreover, I'm not sure why the other writings you mentioned would be more valuable. Gods purpose is being fulfilled through Abrahams seed as promised and salvation through Jesus.
  Galatians 1:8 talks about something I have often considered - even if a spirit were to manifest itself to me directly and tell me I must do something, I would be a fool to deviate from what I have been taught is truth:
  8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed.
  There are ploys to stumble "if possible, even the chosen ones". You have test the "inspired expression" and that is what many of us here are trying to do.
  Rev 22:18,19
  18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
  Romans 16:17
  17 Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.+
  1 John 4:1-3
  4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement,*+ but test the inspired statements* to see whether they originate with God,+ for many false prophets have gone out into the world.+2 This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God.+ 3 But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God.+ Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming,+ and now it is already in the world.+
  And the admonition that determines how we should view evident apostacy:
  2 John 1:10,11
  10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes+ or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.
  To me it is pretty clear that we must be careful to stick to close to truth.
  - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-12 19:49:33
    But this is the response of the Apostle John, in this regard.
    1 John 4
    1 ¶ Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
    2 By this know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
    3 And every spirit which does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the antichrist which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world. [LITV]
    Would this not really be the criteria for whom are considered to be "apostates"?
    As for the 66 books of the Bible, were they not themselves compiled by "apostate Bishops" under the direction of the Roman Emperor, Constantine?
    So do you really believe that God was overseeing this process of compiling 66 books into a Bible cannon and then labeling it as "Holy Scripture"?
    Don't get me wrong here however as I do believe that much of the writings are of value for us today, and particularly that of the gospels about Jesus and his teachings.
    You see where I am coming from?
    Another question here.
    Do you really think that the Apostles at that time period after Jesus death had all the truth as recorded in their writings?
    And what was really the meaning of "increasing the Talents" that Jesus had entrusted to his disciples?
    What about this scripture then?
    1 Corinthians 13
    8 ¶ Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
    10 but when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease.
    11 When I was an infant, I spoke as an infant, I thought as an infant, I reasoned as an infant. But when I became a man, I caused to cease the things of the infant.
    12 For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.
    13 And now faith, hope, and love, these three things remain; but the greatest of these is love.
    You see here the Apostle Paul was in reality admitting that he did not have all the truth, only partial knowledge and that as a person would accumulate knowledge and understanding, so would he progress towards being a better person and towards understanding that would ultimately lead to relative perfection, relative to God that is.
    I look at the Bible only as a stepping stone, partial knowledge if you like, that leads to more exploration of truth, when other sources of it becomes available.
    It is really up to us individually then to determine for ourselves the truth of the information that comes from these other sources and whether it does resonate with our own spirit, which is influenced by the "Spirit of Truth".
    "Test the inspired expressions" as we are admonished to do.
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-12 20:00:02
      I have studied the Bible all my life and have found it to be harmonious and true. I have no reason to doubt it. I have investigated it thoroughly, so why should I now reject it because you claim it was compiled by apostate bishops. Should I take your word or the word of any other man over what is written and proven as God's Word? The reason I started this forum was to get away from the bald assertions of men with an agenda of their own. Here we let God's word speak to us, and it is enough.
      - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-12 22:12:14
        Okay, I can understand your consternation as a genuine person who wants to do what is right and stick to what you know to be true, personally.
        I do not personally have an agenda, except the pursuance of what is an accurate knowledge of what is the real truth. But let me ask you this question.
        When it comes to God and whom he is using to present truth and that is God being a Holy God and one whom cannot abide falsehoods, would he be really using Constantine to set up a convening of bishops, who have deviated from what was considered to be truth in the days of the early Apostles to compile a selection of books and entitle it the "Holy Scriptures" or the "Holy Bible"?
        Yet as you say there is truth contained within the scriptures, there is no doubt about that and a perception of harmony.
        Yet there are also many inconsistencies that do not speak as coming from God.
        For instance have you really evaluated as to what it would take to gather all the variety of animals who are situated all around the earth and situate them onto the ark?
        Have you evaluated for instance how they would segregate all these animals from one another to prevent them from harming each other or even eating each other, such as lions and crocodiles, wolves, etc?
        What about the storage of all the insect varieties that God would have wanted to survive and birds, lizards, snakes, and so on?
        Now here is the interesting part. What about food storage and fresh water that would have being needed to look after these animals?
        Would they not have to store all this for a period of 150 days?
        Would they not also have to determine what each animal needed to eat to survive and provided this also?
        What about the personal and time it would take to feed all these animals and to clean out the muck and manure, to keep the ark clean and from smelling to high heaven?
        Have you observed at a zoo, just how many of the zoo-keepers and personal are required to look after even a small zoo?
        What about the tumultuous waves in the initial phase of the flood, was the ark technologically sound to ride all this out, considering what took place in the initial phase of the flood?
        Yes there are many questions here, which are not adequately explained within the book of Genesis in this regard.
        Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-13 00:26:21
        To your first question, you are working on the assumption that the bible was compiled by Constantine and his Bishops. The Bible books predate him by hundreds of years, so your premise is wrong, therefore your conclusions are wrong.
        On the other, my answer is to quote our Lord Jesus.
        "You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God." (Matthew 22:29)
        You accept that Almighty God used his unimaginable power to bring about a worldwide flood, yet lack the faith to believe that at the same time he could and did provide for all the contingencies you list?
    - Reply by Joel on 2014-03-13 06:10:03
      Sorry, this turned into a lengthy reply!
      "Would this not really be the criteria for whom are considered to be “apostates”?"
      Yes, absolutely. You will notice that I quoted the 2 passages from the letters of John last, partly, because I have seen that some do not accept the writings of Paul. Regardless, they both write the same thing. Anything that deviates from confessing the truth that "Jesus has come in the flesh", ANYTHING else is falsehood and should be rejected. If ANYONE brings you ANYTHING else, then reject it and them, so you have no share in "his wicked works". It is very very clear.
      "As for the 66 books of the Bible, were they not themselves compiled by “apostate Bishops” under the direction of the Roman Emperor, Constantine?"
      No, I would not accept the books were not compiled by bishops, they were compiled by the authors. The bishops you speak of had a hand in collating - there is a big difference. Let's not forget they would no doubt have considered themselves studied in the scriptures and the criteria used to determine inclusion was largely harmony with the rest. There are many other documents which were not included. The 66 books now considered core, are generally accepted by most Christians as harmonious. I can only imagine the rally against Pauls writings relates to the fact that people do not like his rather logical and exact conclusions/direction, but I have not studied it sufficiently. We have many proofs from original manuscripts and fragments that the words we read today were also being read by early Christians. As to the selection of the 66 books, you will notice that I personally am willing to allow that they were selected by imperfect men. However, since I find harmony throughout the books that are and probably more than sufficient information, what you are talking about is a superset and would need to show that something of vital importance has been omitted. It cannot be anything after Revelation, because I trust John's words. If it is before, then it must be a useful addition to the gospels that does not conflict with what is already there.
      "So do you really believe that God was overseeing this process of compiling 66 books into a Bible cannon and then labeling it as “Holy Scripture”?"
      Not necessarily, but I do believe that God will ensure we have what we need. Is there something wrong with the 66 books that are accepted? I do not find anything out of sync in my studies that cannot be resolved. If you have a reason to take issue with the books then please prove it and I would attempt to do likewise. Do you believe there should be 77 books?
      "much of the writings are of value for us today"
      Are there some writings of no value? What are they? Regardless, as a Christian you are free to only to the gospel and specfreferences
      "and particularly that of the gospels about Jesus and his teachings."
      Absolutely
      "Do you really think that the Apostles at that time period after Jesus death had all the truth as recorded in their writings?"
      There is a problem with your question. If they did not have sufficient truth, then we are in trouble, because unless we accept the testimony of Peter and John at the very least what exactly do we have? That is different from having ALL truth, to which I would answer "no", simply because Rev mentions additional scrolls being opened, but not before or during the last days. John tells us in his letters that we may indeed "test inspired expressions", however Rev 22:18, to many people would mark that no substantial additional truth should be forthcoming. Again, I ask what are you proposing?
      "You see here the Apostle Paul was in reality admitting that he did not have all the truth, only partial knowledge"
      Of course, I completely agreee with that.
      "as a person would accumulate knowledge and understanding, so would he progress towards being a better person and towards understanding that would ultimately lead to relative perfection, relative to God that is."
      But I respectfully disagree with that. My understanding is that although knowledge and understanding are helpful and necessary, they are not the catalyst - that is the holy spirit. Jesus did not say "come all ye who seek knowledge", he said "come and I will give lifes water free". Knowledge and understanding is not the point - they do not sustain life. That is a whole nother subject of course!
      "It is really up to us individually then to determine for ourselves the truth of the information"
      Again, absolutely if the information is helpful in strengthening faith - but as Christians we have to be careful not to deviate from the way and we have to be EXTRA careful not to TEACH that which deviates from truth and nor should we want to - that is what makes one an apostate, but as Rev shows it is not necessarily unforgiveable either.
      - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-13 08:44:24
        Joel, knowledge is very important as this scripture shows.
        1 Timothy 2
        3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,
        4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.
        The Truth is progressive and revealed in it's own time. But that does not mean however that we cannot seek it now to the fullest extent.
        On the contrary that is what God wants us to do, I do believe.
        As for the books being compiled, how can it be compiled by it's authors?
        Do you even know what compile means? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/compiled
        That link should explain to you what I mean by the word compiled.
        The authors was responsible for their own writings, but of course it is said by the Christians that God had compiled all of the Bible writings into one book, through the Holy Spirit which was somehow operative on these contrary Bishops, who as it would seem were at loggerheads with each other as to exactly what was the truth about God as to his divinity.
        Was Jesus part of a trinity or not, was the argument that was raging during those times, as I understand from what I have read from Christian history anyway.
        Each book or scroll were written by the prophets who were a product of their times as to knowledge of God and understanding of things, but over a period of time their view of God was becoming more clarified and enlightened as to who he was and his interaction with humans here on the earth and particularly to those who viewed themselves as God's people.
        To start with the Jewish scribes and the pharisees more or less decided on what was Holy Scripture as to the Old Testament writings. Writings of Moses, and the other Prophets, etc.
        At the time of Jesus they were reading what was more or less decided upon by them as scripture, yet Jesus had this to say about the Pharisees in a rather strong way.
        Matthew 23
        3 ¶ But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of Heaven before men; for you do not enter, nor do you allow those entering to go in. [LITV]
        That does include withholding knowledge from their own people, that could be very valuable and beneficial to them.
        And yes knowledge is indeed very important because without that it is impossible to progress towards perfection and eternal life.
        Faith is dependent on knowledge, for without knowledge of God how can you have faith in him?
        Here is what John 3:17 says and i am sure you are familiar with that one.
        3 And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. [LITV]
        To know means to have knowledge of. In this case of both God and Jesus.
        But this knowledge though maybe being partial back then, will become more fully revealed as time goes on.
        However for the disciples back then this knowledge of God and Jesus that they had back then was sufficient for their salvation and is also sufficient for us today also, but this does not mean that we should not be progressive in our understanding of God, Jesus and his universe.
        Yes by all means we should all be seeking truth and an accurate knowledge at that.
        2 Timothy 3
        7 always learning, but never being able to come to a full knowledge of the truth.[LITV]
        Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-13 09:37:15
        You are sowing doubt without providing any proof. Many have come to this site because they are tired of listening to the word of men disguised as the voice of God. All who speak truth from God's word are welcome here. Those who have a message of their own, a human message, should go elsewhere.
        Reply by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-03-13 10:29:07
        You see what you are doing there right, searcher for truth? You are quoting scripture, compiled by men instead of God? ;) Once you discount the bible as complete and inerrant word of God, then what is your baseline, your personal judgement?
        The point is that the bible is the baseline to judge other "inspired words" against.
        Your replies about the ark show that you don't really have faith in God, which makes me sad for you. Maybe you should start discounting Jesus' miracles too, because how could he keep breaking bread to feed 5,000 people.
        Reply by Joel on 2014-03-13 22:25:26
        Are you quoting from the same author Paul who said "all scripture is inspired" - something you have made plain that you disagree with? Regardless, I am afraid you are twisting this scripture out of context.
        "3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
        4 who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
        Please look up the Greek word rendered "the knowledge" or "full knowledge": epignwsin which means "recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement"
        You will notice that if you continued to read verse 5, Paul also goes on to explain what "the truth" is which he is referring to.
        "5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
        I also refer you to Jesus words at John 5:39
        "39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life."
        It is not that there is no value in searching the scriptures, but if you think "knowledge" is the primary concern, then I believe you are missing the point. Jesus then tells them - "These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
        Jesus IS the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. This is what the scriptures testify to, so you can search all you want. It may help you to increase your faith, but the "knowledge" you speak of will not change this particular simple truth.
        I am quite aware of what compile means, unfortunately, you implied when using "apostate bishops" and "compiling" and "66 books" in the same sentence that this somehow means the 66 books we have are not "fit for purpose". To me, the Gospels are a compilation of events in Jesus life and then Acts is a compilation of the Acts of the Apostles and then there are compilations of Letters to the congregations. Each of these gives us more insight into truth, the counsel shared and the way the early Christians lived and worshipped - and surely that is the point? I again point out to you that I find the 66 books to harmonise around the main themes, including, but not limited to "the beginning", the human family from "Adam son of God", to the covenant with Abraham and his seed, right the way through to the Gospels about Jesus and his fulfillment of the law. The Christian letters to the congregations and books of testimony and prophecy thereafter from Jesus apostles through to a final Revelation to John, which just happens to tie in with several books from the Hebrew prophets which are also included in the bible. If the 66 book cannon is a botched job, then "I" and "we", are quite literally at a loss in more ways than one. It is these books that were generally selected, have become established and accepted - they are still accepted today.
        "Was Jesus part of a trinity or not, was the argument that was raging during those times, as I understand from what I have read from Christian history anyway."
        I'm sure it was, but again you seem to be implying that the books themselves are tainted, when we have numerous ancient documents to prove that they are not. Jesus certainly used the phrase "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" enough times for me to believe it is important and "he who has seen me, has seen the Father also", but taught us to pray to the Father, call no one else Father and indeed prayed to the Father himself. He also did the will of the Father and told us that sin/blasphemy against God and the Son could be forgiven, but only sin against the holy spirit was beyond forgiveness. Clearly, they are seperate and yet clearly they are all linked together - I can accept that and the more I study it, the better will be my understanding, but I think it will probably remain "partial knowledge" for now. My point is, that the information is not missing, it is just open to some interpretation, as are most things.
        "Matthew 23
        3 ¶ But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of Heaven before men; for you do not enter, nor do you allow those entering to go in. [LITV]
        That does include withholding knowledge from their own people, that could be very valuable and beneficial to them.
        And yes knowledge is indeed very important because without that it is impossible to progress towards perfection and eternal life."
        The way I understand it, the pharisees and scribes literally withheld information, in the same way that others have since and abused the people with bylaws rendering the word of God invalid. Straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel as it were, but completely missing the point of the law.
        "Each book or scroll were written by the prophets who were a product of their times as to knowledge of God and understanding of things, but over a period of time their view of God was becoming more clarified and enlightened as to who he was and his interaction with humans here on the earth and particularly to those who viewed themselves as God’s people."
        Yes, of course, although I might take issue with "viewed themselves as God’s people." I think Jesus made it pretty clear who are/were Gods people. My view, is that when mankind became estranged, we were essentially left to our own devices at first, but not entirely. It also seems to me, that mans reported longevity is linked to Gods spirit "acting toward man" i.e. perhaps not being withdrawn to a greater degree. Men in ancient times who must have had understandings and history that we do not, but they did not have the law and the bottom line seems to be that the majority did precisely whatever they wanted. A few men of faith are mentioned Abel, Enoch, Noah and so on. Notice, that the angels could travel freely between the physical and spirit realms - there was apparently no barrier or checks. God only brought the deluge because his Creation had been ruined, due in large part to interference from the spirit realm. God then had to divide men into nations to prevent another quick rebellion. It was hundreds of years until Sodom was dealt a blow because of the outcry against it. God only seems to be reported to intercede, when it is completely necessary, or is for his purpose.
        "To start with the Jewish scribes and the pharisees more or less decided on what was Holy Scripture as to the Old Testament writings. Writings of Moses, and the other Prophets, etc."
        I think tradition had a hand in it too. Jesus was happy to read the scroll of Isaiah. He also referred to scripture several times as "it is written". Jesus also said he did not come to abolish the law. That is a fair weight of evidence, that we can trust the writings of the law and the prophets.
        John 17:3
        "3 And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. [LITV]
        To know means to have knowledge of. In this case of both God and Jesus. Faith is dependent on knowledge, for without knowledge of God how can you have faith in him?"
        I don't completely disagree with you, but the stress of John 17:3 is not on "knowledge", it is on "knowing". It is the difference between "studying" music and "appreciating" music. Of course you can do BOTH, but one is more important than the other. By reading Gods word you can come to fully appreciate God and Jesus and what they have done for us - from the very beginning. The other things we can come to understand are a real bonus, but not the whole point.
        "However for the disciples back then this knowledge of God and Jesus that they had back then was sufficient for their salvation and is also sufficient for us today also"
        Indeed
        "but this does not mean that we should not be progressive in our understanding of God, Jesus and his universe."
        I suppose it depends in what sense you use the word "progressive". We should do whatever is within our power to make a thorough search and keep seeking - there is value in that. We just shouldn't teach beyond the things written.
        "But this knowledge though maybe being partial back then, will become more fully revealed as time goes on."
        Yes it will, but as far as I understand it, we have been given sufficient information until Jesus comes.
        Rev 22
        6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place. 7 And behold, I am coming soon.”
        Notice, that this is the end - "I am coming" - no other placeholders. Together with:
        18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
        20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.”
    - Reply by kev c on 2014-03-13 07:06:19
      Searcher for truth when you qouted 1 corintians 13 what do you think it means when that which is perfect arrives in relation to verse 12 when we will see face to face and then will fully know as we are fully known .when would this take place also whats your take on 2 timothy 3 where it says that the scriptures are able to completely equip the man of god for every good work . Thanks kev
      - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-13 09:00:04
        Yes I would agree with that, except I do not agree that all scripture is inspired of God.
        That is what the Jewish people believed as taught by their Jewish leaders.
        Paul in his past, was a well educated Jew and a Pharisee at that.
        Paul was not correct in everything, how could he? As his own knowledge was partial.
        Should we be putting faith in Paul and following him?
        1 Corinthians 3
        4 For when one may say, Truly I am of Paul, and another, I of Apollos; are you not fleshly?
        5 ¶ What then is Paul? And what Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, and to each as the Lord gave?
        6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God made to grow.
        Yes Paul was very wise and versed in the scriptures as well as being led by the Spirit of God but he was not all knowing, that is for sure.
        But what is in the scriptures is adequate enough to equip man to do good works and to have faith in God and Jesus for salvation.
        But of course the ultimate outcome as recorded in verse 17, is that we become perfected leading to spiritual perfection and of course a perfect physical body, a spirit body that is.
        17 so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work. [LITV]
        Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-13 09:34:05
        We've been down this path before, A searcher for truth. This forum is for those who believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. If you wish to learn why we believe that, you're welcome to stay. However, if you are convinced otherwise and want to convince us of the same thing, then we have to obey the direction of 2 John 10, 11.
        Reply by kev c on 2014-03-13 14:51:39
        Searcher for truth you say paul was not correct in everything because his knowledge was partial . I Honestly feel that just because his knowledge was partial that doesnt mean to say he was wrong in what he wrote . He did have holy spirit and that was evident in his deeds according to luke who traced all things with accuracy .he was also a chosen vessel to bear the name of jesus to the nations acts 9 v 15 .Even when seeming to express a personal opinion i dont think that automatically means that the words do not represent gods thoughts .see matthew 18 V 18 to 20 note that assurance was given to the apostles.although that is in the context of judgement It does seem as though authority had been placed in the hands of the apostles . Also the scripture You qouted at 2 timothy 3 v7 would you not agree that those who are always learning and yet never coming to an accurate knowledge of truth are the false teachers who had a form of godly devotion or the weak willed women they managed to take captive .. thanks for the reply kev
        Reply by kev c on 2014-03-13 18:15:43
        Also searcher for truth you say should we be putting faith in paul and following him . But paul said what are he and apollos just ministers through whom others believed I don't think that listening and accepting all of pauls writings as inspired constitutes putting faith in him as his intent was clearly to bring others to christ not himself which is which I believe is the thrust of his message at these verses. That's my opinion. Kev
        Reply by Joel on 2014-03-13 22:37:53
        " I do not agree that all scripture is inspired of God.
        That is what the Jewish people believed as taught by their Jewish leaders.
        Paul in his past, was a well educated Jew and a Pharisee at that. "
        Yet you regularly quote Paul's writings
        "Yes Paul was very wise and versed in the scriptures as well as being led by the Spirit of God but he was not all knowing, that is for sure."
        So he knew what he was talking about, except when you disagree with him?
        "But what is in the scriptures is adequate enough to equip man to do good works and to have faith in God and Jesus for salvation."
        So, I refer you to 2 Tim 3:16,17
        "But of course the ultimate outcome as recorded in verse 17, is that we become perfected leading to spiritual perfection and of course a perfect physical body, a spirit body that is.
        17 so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work. [LITV]"
        I'm sorry, the scriptures are not going to make us perfect. To me this verse is talking about being equipped and ready - not perfect

Comment by Sargon on 2014-03-12 00:36:06
Excellent post. One of the best and most exhaustive posts I've ever read on the subject. The Judicial committee arrangement in place by the GB robs JWs including elders of the opportunity to become mature Christians. They should be able to use Bible principles and their perceptive powers to discern when they need to cease associating with certain people. The countless rules and textbook direction on how to read hearts prevents people from making spiritual progress. Obviously the congregations are too dumb to make wise choices and must be told exactly what to do when it comes to handling sin. On the other hand Jesus and Paul showed great confidence that mature, spiritual believers would act in harmony with the simple principles outlined. An additional textbook outlining everything is unnecessary and Pharisaical.
The JC arrangement actually prevents people from getting the help they need. Many people hide serious problems because they fear being disfellowshipped. A person doing their best to battle alcohol dependency is expected not to have a relapse, otherwise they would be determined to be unrepentant. Then they get discouraged and give up fighting wrong desires. If they could have been helped without fearing reprisal then perhaps they would have been victorious in their fight against the flesh.
Also judicial restrictions are entirely punitive and do nothing to help someones spiritual health. An unbaptized fornicator off the street can comment at the meeting to their hearts delight, but a repentant brother must wait 6 months before commenting. I guess Jesus forgot to put Peter on judicial restrictions until he could prove his repentance.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-12 08:06:01
  I'd forgotten all about the judicial restrictions issue. You're quite right. It is nothing but punitive. I've known of congregations that left a brother or sister languishing under restrictions for over a year.
  One more example of going beyond the things written.
  - Reply by SilverTop on 2014-03-16 01:13:25
    Yes. I was put on restriction, (no commenting at the meetings, couldn't be on the school) The brothers eventually lifted the restriction on my commenting, but I believe they've forgotten all about the Theocratic Ministry School restriction. Fact of the matter is, it doesn't bother me one bit...I probably wouldn't write "regulation talks" anyway, and that would open up a great can of worms.......
    - Reply by SilverTop on 2014-03-16 01:14:32
      That should read, "A great big can of worms......"
- Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-03-12 09:09:57
  Meleti this was a very organized and Bible based article. I find it especially revealing that an Elder wrote it . It cements in my mind that not all of the Elders’ are robots and believe that many levels of the Judicial process is unscriptural.
  It is a running joke among some of my family members regarding the nature of the questions that are asked in sexual immorality cases. I remember my sister coming home crying from a judicial case because she said she felt violated. It was bad enough that she felt like she disappointed my father, but some of the questions the elders asked her were outrageous in my opinion. Some of my family members feel that their "sentence" was lighter because they implicated other brothers and sisters in a specific case .
  I know of a young elder who recently told me that the elders have been given a series guidelines/questions regarding cases of pornography . According to him they inquire about the nitty gritty details about what you are viewing to determine the level of depravity (?) Jehovah views it all as filth . I have no idea as to why they would inquire about what genres or types of pornography you are viewing. Of course this has led to whispers where some brothers and sisters are even implying that because of the brothers new direction regarding these cases that “ Jehovah must view some pornography worse than others.”
  One of my family members battled with drug use. He was reproved a couple of times before he was disfellowshipped. He got help through NA and other sources and with Jehovah’s help overcame the drug use. During his meeting for reinstatement he said the Brother told him that now that since he overcame his habit using worldly “sources” that once he his reinstated that can give him spiritual assistance give “spiritual” assistance that he needs to overcome his habit ( he was already clean?) He felt the implication was that he did not overcome his drug use with Jehovah’s help. He had been clean for a couple of years but because his meeting attendance was “shaky” they told him to give them 3 months of good meeting attendance to be reinstated. When he asked why he said the brothers told him that their decision was based on the guidelines of the society .( I do not understand what was meant by that) My family member seemed excited about what he was told during that meeting but I could not help but wonder why they were making him jump through all of these hoops to be reinstated into the congregation.
  - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-12 09:37:14
    There are many good elders out there, but they have to tread very carefully. Trying to live by Bible standards of love and mercy have gotten many an elder removed for "promoting disunity". I have come to realize that "unity" is the word we use in place of "traditions". Many times we are urged to take a course of action within the body to preserve unity. In fact, what we are preserving are the traditions of men. However, "tradition" has a negative connotation in our Organization because Jesus condemned the Pharisees for the traditions, so we have created a euphemism in "unity".
    What you say about degrees of pornography is very true. When they first introduced the viewing of pornography as a disfellowshipping offense, the differentiated between so-called "soft porn" and things like child pornography, violent pornography, and bondage and sadomasochistic porn. I remember driving home from the elders school where this new understanding was introduced and thinking, what about bestiality and homosexual pornography? No mention of that as a disfellowshipping offense. It was several years before that was included in the list of DFing offenses. It made me wonder if these men had any idea what they were talking about. It certainly undermines the confidence one has in the supposed wisdom of those who presume to take the lead among us.
  - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-12 10:04:32
    I remember one instance where a young, pretty sister was to be questioned about sexual immorality. One of the elders was trying very hard to be appointed to the judicial committee. His interest seemed almost lurid in nature.I was able to block him from getting on the committee by getting myself appointed instead. As committee chairman, I was able to control the questioning to avoid the type of intrusive and humiliating interrogation that you describe. I look back on it all now with regret that I was ever a part of all that, but I didn't know any better at the time.
    The direction to the marrying agents also requires them to ask pointed questions to make sure that the couple has not engaged in any manner of inappropriate touching prior to the marriage. I've known brothers who faithfully observed that direction and couples who came away from the interview feeling violated. There is no basis for this, of course, anymore than an elder has the right to walk up to a married couple and inquire about the manner of their sex life.
    By the way, I have stopped serving as an elder.
    It was possible for a long while, but has become increasingly difficult. The conscience can only bend so far. One can only get away with avoiding teaching parts that promote falsehood for so long without getting noticed. As elders, we are the Governing Body's Boys; their Johnnys-on-the-spot. We now have to give them unquestioning obedience. It wasn't that way before--not to this degree. Things have ramped up to a whole new level of devotion to humans. I know of others who have stepped down or are planning on doing so in the near future.
    Even that is not easy. The direction from the Governing Body for when a brother resigns as an elder is for the body to send to brothers to question him on his reasons before accepting the resignation. The brother is expected to provide a full explanation. If you were to describe this process without making any mention of a religious organization, many people would assume you were talking about a criminal organization.
    The fact is that a resigning elder has to either compromise his conscience by lying or simply say that it is for personal reasons and refuse to say more. Silence is the safest course of action.
    - Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-03-12 11:35:50
      I do not know how they justify the importance of knowing very intimate details to decide a case. Isn’t knowing that the person is confessing the sin sufficient enough? If there is some truth to what my sister and others have said regarding their JC then the questions truly are outrageous.
      Meleti, it saddens me that you are no longer serving as an Elder. Your congregation is truly missing out and I am sure they have expressed that. This site alone is a demonstration of the spiritual treasures that you have stored up. It saddens me even more that the organization has changed in such a way that it prevents you to be able to serve others in that capacity anymore . It is very apparent that is something that you enjoy doing .
      The questionnaire that you are describing is weird. I understand if they want to assist you in remaining as an Elder but …..why the suspicion? The reasons are probably obvious.
      I want you to that I appreciate your work and your leadership on this site very much and I know that our Father does as well. I won’t get super sappy :) but the info on this site has truly changed my life and drawn me closer to Jehovah and His son.
      - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-12 13:15:26
        I'm so glad to hear that. I really am.
        Actually, being free of much of the work of being an elder has helped me lately as the amount of work in maintaining the site has increased. At least hear we get to speak freely.
    - Reply by Sargon on 2014-03-12 13:24:05
      Thankfully I haven't been forced to do anything objectionable as an MS yet. I plan to eventually transfer with the hope that I will not be recommended for reappointment. I am trying my best not to make myself available to become an elder. I don't want to have to tell them why I'm declining.
    - Reply by maxwellsmartjw on 2014-05-20 10:14:24
      Meleti, I anticipate someday arriving at the place you've arrived at (elder resignation). I keep rolling around in my mind my "exit strategy" for stepping aside...... those who've never served have no idea of the perilous waters an elder is swimming in when he attempts to resign. Here's a scenario: A brother who has volunteered of his personal time for decades serving as an elder and making himself available for other areas of oversight, RBC, assembly parts, reaches a point in his life where he has the time, and the resources to enjoy some traveling. Perhaps occasionally overseas, and perhaps extended visits out of state visiting witness friends and family and seeing the sights. For decades he has been stalwart, truly a fine example of faith and given his all. He (and his doctor) now feel the need to reduce his stress levels. After diligent prayer and much self-evaluation, his conscience and his modesty compel him to relinquish the title (and honor and recognition that accompanies it) as he realizes he will be unable to serve in the capacity expected of him and at the same time be away from the congregation. All the brother wants is for he and his wife to use what healthy years they have left in something that enriches their lives (and those of others) and brings them pleasure. Why can't this fine brother step aside with dignity? Why will he be looked down upon by his peers, the CO, the Branch? Why will he be viewed as weak in the faith, why will his peers question his motives, and call him a quitter? Did his decades of service mean nothing to Jehovah?
    - Reply by maxwellsmartjw on 2014-05-20 10:46:39
      It is sad that when an elder resigns for reasons other than health issues (much of which may be attributed to the stress of serving) all his faithful years are dismissed, and he becomes a nobody. An ex-elder who isn't reaching out to serve again is viewed behind closed doors as a deadbeat loser. I know, because I've been on bodies that have spoken of former elders in that light. We are groomed to view the man as lesser than joe publisher, because the former elder knows what he should be doing. Other religious organizations accept a man's resignation after years of fine service, even honoring him with recognition acknowledging his sacrifice, perhaps even throwing a special event to celebrate his tenure and volunteer work.
      Meanwhile, our faithful brother becomes invisible.... as Kevin on the TV show "Shark Tank" says: "Your dead to me": Sad but true.
      - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-05-21 11:46:57
        I couldn't agree with you more. It is said that a believer becomes like the God he worships. We depict Jehovah as a god who wants sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice. Do more in service, do more in the congregation, you can never do enough. Give, give, give if you want to be saved. So when one can't serve like before he or she is devalued and marginalized.
        We say with our mouth and our pen (printing press) that this is not the case, that Jehovah values the service given. This is true, of course, but for us, these are just words. Our actions indicate we believe something else. The God we claim to worship is not like this. Therefore, the God we are really worshiping is another.

Comment by kev c on 2014-03-12 07:37:02
Yes meleti thanks very much ive come to the same conclusions on every single one of your points regarding this topic.Following the bible now has become apostasy in the eyes of the organisation The brothers are watchtower students not bible students and the way its going all must thrust their bible trained conscience aside to remain in it ..Kev r
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-12 09:28:45
  The Bible is the ultimate piece of apostate literature. That is why the Catholic church banned it. We can't get away with that today, but we can pressure brothers to use only our version and view all others as questionable. Of course, you can only sanitize the Bible so much to fit with a particular ideology, so we also condemn private or independent bible research, the study of Greek and Hebrew (as was done in the 2012 district convention), and web sites like this one. Only by learning the Bible through the lens of the Organization's publications can we truly be protected from "apostasy".

Comment by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-03-12 15:30:54
I recall an event where a young brother in his twenties was suffering from a social disorder (he was born that way). His mom always encouraged him to go to the hall, but she was bedridden, yet he always went faithfully.
He was allowed to be baptized and was a fine brother, despite some people "fearing" him or gossiping about him (not understanding the nature of his condition).
When his mom died, he was alone as a jehovah's witness in a family of catholics and with grandparents that were apostates (in the bad sense). It was really hard on him, yet he kept going to the meeting. One day he was asked to volunteer for a social event to help the community. He did not realize it was something with local political ties, and that a website had him listed as being a contributor.
They announced him at the meeting withdrawn, after having a conversation with him. I talked to him afterwards, and he told me he did not understand what had happened. Yet they had the audacity to announce on the stage that he did not wish to be a JW anymore. Writing about it still makes my blood boil. He sometimes comes to meetings and conventions and then stands there all alone and everyone walks around him, it makes my heart rip.
Situations like this really destroyed my faith in the organisation, and for a while destroyed my faith, until I realized it's just men abusing God's word. Thank you for writing this article, it confirms what I have gleaned from the scriptures.

Comment by Joel on 2014-03-12 18:27:34
A very thorough and interesting article. I particularly like your research on 1 Corinthians 5:9-11. The way Paul puts it across is excellent and as you say is speaking of not going out of your way to mingle with someone who principally can be considered bad association. Even so, the onus seems to be on the individuals to exercise good judgement, since we are free people, not under law. The rebuke given "by the majority" is sufficient, as Paul himself says.
The more serious sin of apostasy is singled out as the only time to put a very clear distance between yourself and the other party. What sharing to lightness and darkness have? That said, you've got everything completely covered by mentioning "Jezebel" of Thyatira.
I think it is very important to note in both this case and the case of Pergamum, Jesus FIRST highly commends both congregations, but then indicates that he holds the actions of some against them. But it is clear, that Jesus indicates he will deal with the offenders in the congregation and ONLY the offenders after allowing them some time to repent - even in the case of very serious sins.
Rev 2
"15 Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."
Notice - "fight against THEM" not YOU, but THEM
" I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25 Only hold on to what you have until I come. "
Notice - "I will repay EACH of you according to your deeds"
Followed by the incredible encouragement - "Only hold on to what you have until I come. "
As usual, the organisation has had no shortage of governance and bylaws to deal with a plethora of sins and strictly speaking it seems we have our own version of the confession, albeit, a confession with consequences. The guidance given in scriptures, is as usual, much simpler and less controversial, since none of us are righteous enough to judge another. Regardless, what happens at the first sign of trouble in our congregations? - chop. Hardly sounds like the same thing to me and I have personal knowledge of some pretty unfair examples that show what happens when you give imperfect men so called "judicial oversight". Some of them have agitated me a great deal. Obviously why the scriptures say to bring the matter to the congregation.

Comment by Samaritan Woman on 2014-03-12 18:30:33
Once when I was before a committee for fornication and I admitted that yes me and this non-witness had slept together. Not only was that apparently not a good enough answer but they continued to ask me what I know now were completely inappropriate questions. One brother in particular had a problem with the fact I did not seem " repentant enough" to the point where I could see he was visibly angry with me, the other two elders seemed confused at this.
I don't know where I got the courage, maybe it was Jesus maybe it was anger, but I said to this brother " what right do you have to judge my heart as evil because I haven't cried, I do enough crying out to Jesus and I know he has forgiven me. I am here because this is the procedure , not for forgiveness. There is nothing that you can do that I haven't already done to myself. " I think if he could have yelled at me he would have. After I left the room I heard the heated discussion and I am positive that it was 2-1 decision for public reproof , he without a doubt would have disfellowshipped me. It was one of many unconnected events that led to the scales falling off my eyes.
I chose to obey Jesus no matter the cost to me personally and it will be great. I choose not to be one that shrinks back from encouraging someone languishing because honestly I see myself in those people and no one bothered to help me. I must be able to kneel before God and his appointed Judge and say " I did my best to live the way that you did."

Comment by thinkingsis on 2014-03-13 00:26:12
Beautifully written and explained so simply....oh ..if we only lived under these guidelines....a light yoke....and my son would still be alive.....I am deeply grateful for this explanation
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-13 00:49:17
  Did you experience a personal tragedy?
  - Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-13 07:23:01
    Yes I I I have replied to you but I don't want it to go public....you may not have even got it as I am finding it a bit difficult to get into the site and pass the dashboard...I sure I'll get there eventually brother

Comment by Kyp on 2014-03-13 10:47:48
Dear Meleti,
This is really a great article, I liked reading it very much and agree with most thoughts.
Some months ago, I was surprised, how many brothers come to the exactly same conclusions regarding the disfellowshipping issue. And now I see that you drew the same conclusions, which I think is a good sign.
You mention the Jewish system getting into the JW structure. Many laws within our (JW) organisation are much much harder than the corresponding Jewish laws. So Jesus says, that he fulfills the Jewish law and replaces it, Paul gives us strong counsel not to get back to a Jewish law structure and we as JWs set up new laws that are much stricter and harder? This is one thing that made me think that something is seriously wrong with our "judical system". Maybe we get some more into this topic in another discussion (or another discussion place when you know what I mean *twinkle*).
Kyp

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-13 10:56:37
Well here then I have proven my point here.
Because I do not have a whole hearted faith in the Bible, I am considered and Apostate here.
Jesus did not say to follow the Bible, but to follow him and that the "Spirit of Truth" would show us the "Way" as to how to do that.
And it could use a variety of sources including the writings of the Bible to do that.
As for me belonging here or not, I am in the perfect place, as surely you must realize by now that all who frequent this site would be considered by the Watchtower Society to be Apostates!
After all I was one of Jehovah' witnesses as a baptized member for over 30 years and disfellowshiped because I would not accept that the "faithful slave" had been appointed over all of Christ's belongings in 1919.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-13 11:19:43
  2 John 8-11 and Galatians 1:6-9 define what an apostate is. These verses do not coincide with the definition the Watchtower Society puts on the word. However, the only definition we care about on this site is the Scriptural one. Not having faith in the Bible doesn't make one an apostate. You are putting words in our mouth. Preaching good news other than that taught in the Bible and teaching as truth things that are odds with the truth revealed in the Bible makes one an apostate. You may try the shoe on and if it fits, you don't need anyone else to tell you. It is not for us to label anyone as an apostate. What we are commanded to do is to quit associating with anyone who teaches us things that are different from what the Christ teaches.
  - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-13 20:00:28
    Meleti, It appears that you are going around in a circle here. This is my observation anyway.
    You had stated that not having faith in the Bible does not make one an apostate, but then went on to indicate that because I suggest things here on this site that maybe somewhat contrary I am preaching something different to what the "Good News" is, I am as good as an apostate, and not one to be associating with here on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.
    In fact you more-or-less accuse me of incriminating myself as an apostate, because I had suggested to you that is how you view me, a straw-man's argument at that.
    Let me ask you this question then.
    What do you really consider to be the "Good News" that Jesus had preached about back then nearly 2000 years ago?
    As according to scripture that is.
    And what did I actually say that was actually contrary to what Jesus had preached as "Good News" and not what Jesus apostles had preached many years later?
    Is the Good News that the apostle preached, exactly the same as what Jesus had actually preached?
    And what about today, is the Good News that the majority of Christians including Jehovah's Witnesses, are preaching the same as what Jesus had preached?
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-13 23:31:59
      Seriously? You don't see the difference between simply not having faith in something and promoting a falsehood? That is the basis for suggesting I may be going around I'm circles?
- Reply by Sargon on 2014-03-13 13:25:55
  A searcher for truth...
  Can you prove the other writings you believe in are more valid than the bible? Mormons have their own inspired writings, should we accept them? Also some religions accept apocryphal books like book of Enoch etc. I've read some of these and they are interesting and entertaining. Also as we saw recently in the revised new world translation some translators have decided to remove entire portions of the gospel that were previously included. So really this argument is pointless. The discussion isn't about the bible canon, but about faith in Christ and following his teachings. We know how dangerous it is to follow man made revelations. Jehovah's witnesses follow Rutherford man made revelation which tells us not to partake of the bread and wine which is in direct conflict with what Christ taught. So the real question should be, am I following Christ and what he taught? All other discussions usually lead to sectarianism.
  - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-13 20:44:40
    To Sargon, no I cannot prove it categorically and so you will just have to read it and decide for yourself on that one.
    I cannot decide this for you. It has to resonate with you personally as truth, or possible truth.
    I do know this, that quite a few who profess to be Christians, including Jehovah's Witnesses, have read it and are somewhat impressed as to what it contains.
    One of the biggest stumbling blocks to accepting it's information however for many is it's view on the ransom sacrifice as this is central to much of the Christian belief system.
    Me personally even as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I never really could understand why God would have a need for a ransom sacrifice. It never really sat right with me, the understanding of it that is.
    Jesus obviously provided himself as a sacrifice for a reason and that was in harmony with his Heavenly Father's will, but it was not to satisfy God's sense of justice as most Christians understand it today.
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-13 23:36:49
      When we dialogued earlier, I hadn't realized that you are denying the ransom. Not only denying it but promoting the idea that it isn't needed. If you wanted to know what the bible definition of apostasy is, you've just found it.
      - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-14 01:43:17
        It does seem these days, including back then that everyone had their idea of what apostasy is, but the scripture in John only speaks of denying that Jesus had come in the flesh and receiving a resurrection as the criteria of apostasy so sorry your determination of me as an apostate does not fit here in this equation..
        As for Jesus sacrifice , I am not denying the sacrifice of Jesus as being an expression of his and God' love for all of us humans, but am questioning the validity of the statement "ransom sacrifice" as in satisfying God's sense of judgement.
        As I understand we today do not have to pay for the sins of Adam and Eve, but we do have to repent of our own sins of our own making and answer to God as to our sins.
        As a loving Father, God has already forgiven us in advance and gives us a chance to make our repentance manifest if we do commit serious sins.
        But even God's patience has it's limits and so we do not want to take God's mercy for granted in this regard.
        See the parable about the "prodigal son".
        Jesus did not die to atone for our sins, but died so that we could put our faith in him through his sacrifice in behalf of us so that we could feel forgiven.
        I do believe that this was particularly for the Jewish Christians because they above all the other nations were much concerned about providing an atonement sacrifice to God (YHWH) regularly for their sins.
        The Gentile nations were not much concerned with this however and so the Gentile Christians, I believe, did have a slightly different view of Jesus sacrifice than their Jewish brothers and sisters. But as time went on it did become a Christian concept that was accepted by the majority of Christians.
        The central message of Jesus was about the "Kingdom of God" and not the "Ransom Sacrifice".
        I do not believe that God had to provide a "Scapegoat" (his Son Jesus) to pay for our sins or in the long term the sins of Adam and Eve, that is supposedly passed down to us from generation to generation down to our day today.
        Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-14 08:45:39
        ASFT, Why are you still here? You don't believe in the ransom which is clearly taught in the Bible. You don't believe Jesus died to atone for our sins. This is all Bible 101. This is the most basic of Bible teachings. This is the good news. If you cannot and will not grasp this, then why come here? There are other places on the web where people love to hear each other talk; places where a person can spout baseless opinions to their hearts content. Go there. Enjoy yourself. You have nothing to contribute here because you speak of your own originality and not God's.

Comment by thinkingsis on 2014-03-13 14:57:55
Hi KYP,
There certainly is something seriously wrong with our judicial system.
When in the hands of men who abuse their power it actually causes some to commit suicide.
Tho my son was never baptized, he was disciplined ruthlessly and appallingly.
Eventually he took his own life.
Sadly I'm sure he was not the first nor will be the last.
That's why I loved this article so much...the way it was laid out and explained was so obvious and factual.
I will certainly be printing this off and hopefully in time be able to share it carefully with some.
Off course all identifying marks removed....so sad to be even necessary to do that.
So glad I found this site, it is obvious that Jah is with you brother meleti.
My heartfelt gratitude to you.
As you can see, I'm navigating my way around this site now.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-14 08:28:55
  I am so very sorry for your loss. We are so ill equipped in the organization to deal with situations like his because we are taught to follow men's rules rather than our Father's overriding principle of doing all things out of love.
  There have been four recent, unrelated suicides in a neighboring town. I don't know all the circumstances, but I do know that in one case, the situation was made worse by the way the brothers handled the situation.
  This is likely a far more widespread problem than we'd like to admit. There was a video at our most recent elders school to instruct us in the proper way of dealing with situations where a brother or sister is threatening suicide. It was a reasonable effort, but fell short of what is really needed. The idea that a single 10-minute visit could turn the tide was ridiculous. And there is no thought given to recommending the help of a medical professional; no thought that perhaps the individual is suffering from treatable clinical depression. In a way, it just served to perpetuate the status quo.
  I'm sure your son lies now in God's memory and you will see him again. His mercy is beyond our understanding.
  - Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-14 09:46:31
    Thank you for your kindness brother.
    Yes I have seen that video you are talking about, I don't know if it's still up on line or the society has had it taken down.
    You know brother before all this happened I was known for my diplomatic ways.
    I'm not so diplomatic anymore...I'm fairly straight to the point in serious situations now.
    I'm sorry but that video.... I'm really trying here brother...but well I've just got to say it how it is....it was a insult to those that suffer depression.
    The ignorance of the society was blatantly obvious.
    To the point it is plain dangerous. There attempts were amerturish.Not only have I had my own serious dark black journey with depression.
    I also work in the medical field.
    When that elder sat there and raised his head skyward and said..thank you Jehovah......regarding the actions of the depressed sister of getting up and saying...oh I've forgotten the cookies....
    Honest ..I felt ill.
    It was a simplistic fairy tale ending....and that's how they are training the elders?
    Woe is us is all I can say.
    I'm sorry brother, I guess this reply isn't what you would like to hear.
    I now deal in facts over such a topic.
    I often think those at headquarters have lost touch with the real world that we actually do live in.
    Yes I know they get reports and accounts about what is going on etc.
    It's just not the same...they are protected..insulated...for who knows how long.
    It's a war out here...and the biggest war zone is with in the org.
    But once you get the full picture..this was all prophesied ....we have been warned by Paul
    We have been warned by the phrophets.
    Well it is a huge help...massive help actually.
    I lost sight of that for awhile
    Jeremiah 5:26
    For among my people there have been found wicked men. They keep peering as when bird catchers crouching down. It is men that they catch.
    As a cage is full of flying creatures, so there house is full of deception.
    That is why they have become great and have gained riches.
    They have grown fat, they have become shiny.
    They have also overflowed with bad things
    No legal case have they pleaded, even a legal case of a fatherless boy.
    And the judgement of the poor ones they have not taken up.
    Should I not hold a accounting of these very things.
    ......and as for the preists, they go subduing according to their powers.
    I didn't know that the way things are now was all foretold in the scriptures.
    They didn't teach me that...so I was ill prepared for finding out that it is simply not true that we are living in a spiritual paradise.i didn't understand why Jehovah was allowing the cruellness to go on.
    No wonder people give up and leave.
    Now I see it, now I understand the big picture...it's hard...excruciating at times..but it is doable.
    All is not doom and gloom as Jehovah gives us some gold nuggets now and then.
    Has anyone read the latest study article on how to treat each other...it's very good and how it should really be amongst his people.
    That helps us too keep going doesn't it.
    Also there are some beautiful and kind CO,s and elders around..also MS...that are worth their weight in gold....I let them know it too...as they must find it so very very hard.
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-14 13:19:50
      "I’m sorry brother, I guess this reply isn’t what you would like to hear."
      Not at all. I completely agree with you. Your assessment of the video coincides with mine. The worst part of it is that after seeing it, most elders will think that all we need to do to help brothers suffering from depression is pay them a visit and read a few scriptures. It's the spiritual/emotional equivalent to James words at James 2:16.
      Perhaps if we were truly trained in the deep things of God and if our meetings were used to teach us about love and about Christ and about his personally with the same repetitiveness that we devote to overcoming objections at the door and the like, we might actually be able to help out such ones; and when their condition required medical aid, we would have the humility to recognize that and not think that going to a doctor somehow repudiated our religion.
      You are right about those verses as well. We discount those because we look at everything organizationally instead of individually. So we are taught that all those bad things happen outside the organization. That belief leaves us ill equipped when the reality hits us in the face and we realize that the fulfillment of those scriptures encompasses all of Christendom of which we are a part.

Comment by umbertoecho on 2014-03-13 19:39:23
thinkingsis
My sister has just left her husband. They have been prodigiously JWs all of their lives and have fanatically condemned everyone not in the "truth". After 50+ years within this religion she has managed to make her life very confusing. The reason for this is that as a mother with a mothers love of her children, when her son was disfellowshipped he was not spoken to at any of the meetings which he attended without fail for over seven years (to my knowledge). This lack of communication at such meetings, led him to become very socially awkward and caused him to lack confidence in every way possible. It led to his increasing need to take medications which he then proceeded to doctor shop for. `Then he took to drinking in a big way over the past year or so. I had encouraged her to seek professional assistance with a rehab program, but she was against this and angry at me for making such a suggestion. She had always intimated to me that my daughter died due to my lack of spirituality and the fact that I had not been in the "safety of the org". This hurt and hurt............To get to one of my points. I empathize with you deeply and hope things improve for both of us and others who have lost loved ones. The other matter is that, my sister finally had to call upon these worldly rehabilitators in order to get some desperately needed help for him as he has become very sick. The nurse turned up at the house the other day and calmly stated that ..."your son will die...if he does not immediately get detoxed..." The sudden shift of direction in seeking help for her son did not sit well with him, due to the fact that he has been pummeled into believing that only through associating with the organization, would he ever recoup his spirituality which would in turn greatly assist him to give up his (by now) complex drug problem. When she saw that he would not go to the rehab and that he was in great danger, she packed up her bags and left. She has allowed the judicial system within this religion to run rampant in regard to her sons health. She has blinded herself by saying such things as......"the only reason he is in this state, is because he is not truly repentant and does not have God's holy spirit....."
It is an unholy mess now. I cannot see how she will effect any good outcome by running away from a situation that she and her husband assisted in creating. They were so caught up with being model witnesses that they forgot about the very basic elements of love and compassion. It was a facade created to impress people for fear of being judged by others. She was taken to task a few years ago for having a coffee with him in a cafe' (an elder happened to pass them and reported it to the others) So she never did it again.
Where this will end, I do not know. Yet I have some grave misgivings for my sister, her son and her husband.
I do hope that I have not offended anyone with this some what lengthy comment, for I have found it to be cathartic in the sense that I am able to express my current fears and past experience.
Love to all.
- Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-13 20:57:12
  umbertoecho, that is a very sad story but unfortunately there are many examples of this type of thing within the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses and other belief systems.
- Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-13 21:13:01
  Hi Umbertoecho,
  I am so so sorry for your anguish and pain. I don't know if I should answer here but I do not know the site well enough or you brothers and sisters here.
  So I'm going to go ahead anyway.
  Many go out into the world after being disciplined..not because they want to but because they will physically die if they stay any longer in isolation with in the cong.
  My beautiful son did just that...each day my husband and would stay home with him and watch him like a hawk. My husband is and unbeleiver. He would say to me.....what do they teach you at that hall!!!!!!
  I went to one of the elders involved and plainly said that if he killed himself they would have blood on their hands,
  He just said I don't have to listen to this and walked away.
  They knew of his depression.....in the last 12 months of his life I also told the other one involved of his attempted suicide by hanging....he was found by a friend and pulled down.
  They never ever went around to him...never cared..not once...this was a young man who grew up in the truth, went witnessing and gave talks. Tho unbaptized he was a active witness really.
  When he did leave as he was totally isolated and treated just as a disfellowshipped person, he then went on a death wish life style.
  Drugs, fights self harm and attempted suicides.
  At the time our cong was really disintegrating,
  Eventually he had two children and tried to reign himself in as to his lifestyle and come back to the truth.
  The day he died I had sat with him for hours, he had taken his new born baby and two young sons and unbeleiving wife to a DA. When walking in, this elders wife looked at him and gasped and walked away.
  He had a goatee on at the time.
  After the assembly filled with happiness that he had come he told me about that snub and after all this time how it made him feel.
  His words were....mum, why should I put myself thru that again...why should I put my family thru that.
  It took another 12 months but he again went to a meeting and said he had no anger when he was there....that beleive me was a huge step for him.
  He was always reading his bible and studying gods word and had said to me...well mum after going thru psalms I can see I need to forgive them (elders) because I want him to forgive me.
  He was going to hold a meeting with them and lay out to them how their treatment had affect his life.
  His words were I will let them know respectfully that how they handled my case was a insult to Jehovahs name.
  He never got to do that is I did it for him.
  He was always telling me...it's no good being bitter mum...it wasn't Jehovah.
  That day he died he still cried over his treatment....he had gone cold turkey unbeknown to me....eventually gave out and drank too much.
  I left him for about ten minutes...probably really only eight....to find him hanging.
  Yes these ones as my son and your nephew have paid the consequences for their drug abuse, their self harm.......but what drove them down that path......our own spiritual family...some family hey.
  Since his death so much has come out....the boys that were warned they would be disfellowshipped if they had anything to do with him have cried with me and now live with deep remorse and regret..
  They have admitted to me they were the instigators and my son the follower ...that he was the scapegoat and they basically saved their own hides at his expense.
  I have forgiven them...their greif and remorse is genuine.
  They were manipulated by cruel elders......so called spiritual men who do not know the very essence of Jehovah.
  A small band of brothers and sisters have supported me and my family....some have said they will never allow the elders...to manipulate them like that again.
  We have cried together....we had all once been so very close....then the cong somehow just become fractured and horrible to be with.
  Once my son died it was as if the shock woke a few up and we have regrouped.
  We will continue to endure in a cong that's still run by one of these elders.
  It was so kind of you to answer me sister, your loss is huge....we have had our eye...not just touched but gouged out.
  I don't know your daughters story but I do know that this is a test of endurance for us...to endure with in a cong to the end is a mighty feat.
  I realize now that I am being tested and refined.
  This is my tribulation, and I'll be blowed if I'm going to let super fine apostles stumble me Any longer.
  Before my son died I went inactive for two years, I was extremely bitter and angry.
  Aah...nearly a victory for satan.
  Since my sons death, I am as strong spiritually as I have ever been.
  As mothers sis...this is our test....we can do it......
  We will see our son and daughter walking towards us....saying....hey mum, what's going on.....
  Don't let them take that away from you......satan is at work with in the congs...that's a reality.
  We will hold them soon....please if there is anyway I can help you..somehow we must keep in contact.
  Perhaps exchange emails.
  I don't know how to do that safely on this site?
  Perimeno is another site where you can get a lot of encouragement and understanding from. It has really helped me to keep going.
  Thanks for fellow brothers and sisters for allowing this depressing exchange of words and sorry if some if they feel it was inappropriate.....
  Thinkingsis xx
  - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-14 11:26:03
    To ThinkingSis and Umbertoecho,
    Your stories are heart-rending. There are no words to express the grief and pain you have suffered. You speak well in saying that it is a refining.
    (Romans 9:22, 23) . . .If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, 23 in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,
    These verses apply in principle to situations like you both have suffered. Jehovah can restore all things. Make all things right. The great rewind, the great "do-over", I like to call it. He can reset all things and undo all things. But woe to those who are the causes of stumbling. Woe to the vessels of wrath though they walk in fine robes or call themselves Elder, nothing escapes the notice of God. Perhaps they will repent while there is still time. If not, then the words of Paul ring loud:
    (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) . . .This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.
    When Jesus said, "By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”", he wasn't giving us a way to identify the true organization. He was telling us how his disciples would be identified. Inside the organization there are those who have "love among themselves" and those who exhibit pride, jealousy, envy and hatred. Both exist side by side, like stands of wheat and darnel weed. (John 13:35; Mat. 13:24-30)
    However, in some places the weeds tend to clump together more than others. You both seem to have experienced such a place.
    - Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-14 12:14:13
      Thank you brother.
    - Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-14 18:09:28
      Thank you Meleti,
      It was on the 11th of this month that my Emma died five years ago. Sorry for being a little bit evil, but I liked the 2 Thess 1:6-10 bit. It sort of....shored me up a little, put a little heat in my soul.
      Having said this, I do not EVER want to be a vengeful sort of person. And am aware that it is very unhealthy to bear grudges and continue on with a grudge. Christ didn't do this, right up until his death He was/is the model of the power of love and faith. I am inspired over and over again when I read about our King. And I really can thank God for this persons existence in our lives. That is how I feel about Jehovah's Son and why I want more comprehension of every word Jesus ever spoke. This site has been beneficial for my health in different ways.
      - Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-15 00:11:24
        That is a beautiful name Emma, I have a niece with that name. Ones like us and there are many Umbertoecho now truly understand Jehovahs time line.....a day for a year.
        It may be five years but feels just like five days or even yesterday.
        For me tho two years it is just like two days ago. I smiled at your scripture brother....you are not evil...just a loving father......hey I was so full of anger at the time I wanted to go around and physically flog those two brothers.....I was so full of unbeleivable anger they wouldn't have stood a chance either.....sister or no sister.....boy I'm so glad I didn't act on that desire!
        There is one elder still remaining in our cong, I used to get up and walk out when he took the platform....I knew that was wrong especially as he was up there such a lot.
        I reasoned that Jehovah was allowing him there for some unknown reason to me.
        At this point he wasn't going to change, (he barley acknowledges me)
        So I had to....I guess it's called refinement...changing the old personality for the new.
        I now can look beyond the man speaking and try to listen to the words...mind you last week when he read a account in Genisis about being loving and kind to our brothers...I found it excruciating to sit and listen....I was dumbfounded that he could mouth of like that...with out even a hiccup ....so as you can I still have a long way to go.
        Hey..there's still hope for us...look at Moses ..he took another 40 years to be refined in the wilderness before he could be used...wasn't he about 80 years old then!
        Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-15 20:27:43
        thinkingsis,
        Very true, Moses did have about forty years of refinement, so there may be hope for me/us yet. We are imperfect and have trouble controlling our emotions at times. Your loss is very, very recent, and for the first two or three years of losing Emma, I am sure that I went literally crazy with grief. I started searching for the local witness hall and studying with a couple who were initially quite gentle. I had been raised in this religion as a child but had been head strong and found it so difficult to be "different" from those around me. It was hard to measure up with all of the rules and so I gave up. However, I never stopped believing in Jehovah. I started to study again and attend after her death. I was determined to see her again and felt that this was the only way. I was sorry for all the wrong I had ever done ( by WT standards)
        I studied enthusiastically and found scriptures that seemed to be at odds with what was taught at the meetings. Therefore, I questioned my comprehension of them in relation to the interpretation I was being given. I did this with all due respect. I was told to have less questioning and more faith in God and his organization...... I also noted that there were many cliches and not a lot of love or kindness going on in this congregation. It was so odd to me to read all of the literature about how we were show the "fruit-ages of the spirit.." yet it was not happening as far as I could see.
        Something was amiss here, something had gone wrong within this religion, it had lost it's soul as far as I could sense.
        There had been a time when things had not seemed so harsh, but now there was no feeling of God's presence as sat in that hall and looked around at the attendees. No. They were not happy, and they seemed to be tuned out during the WT study.
        There were brothers and sisters who (eventually) told me they were on various medications for depression.............why? The response of many of these people was that ..."Satan was attacking individuals in an attempt to compromise their faith in God and the GB..." This is a paraphrase of the comments, not a verbatim, word by word rendering of what these individuals said. This made no sense to me and got me to thinking about the days when people were discouraged very publicly from getting psychological help, yet here we were with many heading off to the local doctor to help sedate the inner turmoil going on within them.
        I could go on "thinkingsis" but I know you are fully aware of the disparities between what we are taught and what we experience. This is not an isolated case of being in a "bad congregation" No. It is something that has started pervading many congregations in many countries. I do not think we can keep blaming Satan, the world and everyone else for this situation. I think the GB are to blame for this terrible situation. I will go to the meeting today, I will listen and write as the speaker speaks. I will remember that men and women are imperfect.
        Take care thinkingsis.
        Reply by on 2014-03-15 23:01:51
        I'm bit ashamed to say this but I even bargained with Jehovah as I stood over my sons grave,l knew he could resurrect him in a nano second.... I explained to him ( just like he didn't already know ) what good it would do...how many on seeing the miracle would listen and come into the truth.
        Yeah talk about crazy with greif.
        Later around the table with the rest of the family I told them what I'd said to Jah.
        We all laughed a bit...imagining him walking back into town and everyone freaking out.
        I'll tell him that when he's back...
        Just remember what Revelations says about the congs...on his return he will only find two out of seven that are acceptable to him...that's less than one third.
        Hang in there sis.....we have a huge incentive now...
        Thinkingsis
        Xx
  - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-14 11:53:03
    By the way, if any of the brothers and sisters congregating here wish to open up a private dialogue with another, please email me and I will arrange for the exchange of email addresses.
    - Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-03-14 16:17:09
      Also, If you are members on the discussion board you may use the PM (private messaging) feature, although I think you have to have made at least 3 posts before you can do so.
      Apollos
  - Reply by KeepOnSeeking on 2014-03-14 14:11:27
    thinkingsis,
    My heart and prayers go out to you and your family. Jehovah and Jesus are certainly proud of you for maintaining your love for them throughout such a personal tragedy. I rejoice thinking about the day you will see your son again.
    I want to deeply thank you for mentioning Perimeno in your comment. I had not heard of that site before, but I have now found very encouraging content that impacts me directly. I will continue to wait on Jehovah knowing that He will act at His appointed time.
    Warm Christian love,
    KeepOnSeeking
    - Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-15 01:53:53
      Perimeno is a anointed brother, he is very kind and gentle.
      It would seem that Jehovah is using such ones to encourage and gather his scattered sheep, whether that is in a spiritual or literal sense.
      Just like this site.....are you anointed Meleti.?........anyway..precious brothers indeed...a life line for many of us.
      I'm so happy he helped you, I have devoured his site as I will eventually here too.
      - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-15 08:18:14
        Thank you for the kind words.
        To answer your question, I don't subscribe to the Governing Body teaching that there is a small class of spirit anointed Christians and an enormous class of "other sheep". I began to partake of the emblems last memorial when for the first time I realized that Jesus' command to partake was directed to all his followers, not just a privileged few. I believe all those who reach out for it, receive his spirit for it is the spirit that opens our minds and guides us into all the truth. We worship in spirit and truth, so if there are those who resist the clear teachings of the Bible and persist in obeying the commands of men as if they were doctrines of God, they are in danger of losing the spirit they received in the beginning. (John 16:13; Mat. 15:9)
        When we raise objections to what we are being taught in the congregations, using scriptures to prove our point, the frequent objection raised is, "Do you think you know more than the Governing Body?" The idea is implicit that they get some special knowledge. We live in the spiritual equivalent of Reagan's "trickle-down economic model". We believe the holy spirit trickles down to us through the Governing Body. However, we have abundant evidence that this belief is false. Besides what is plainly stated in scripture, we have the empirical evidence from so many contributing to this site that the spirit Jesus sent forth is opening our minds and hearts to Bible truths.
        We each came to Scriptural understandings on our own using only the Bible and then when each one found this site and started to "compare notes" we learned that others from all over the world had come to the exact same understandings. I don't know what is at work in the Governing Body, but the spirit that Jesus sends for is the "spirit of truth". Draw your own conclusions.
        Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-15 09:29:35
        Okay ..you have me at a bit of a disadvantage here....my fault not yours..as I have not read all of your articles.
        I can get the belief off, all of us are meant to partake.
        I certainly know that his Holy Spirit can open up the scriptures and we don't need the GB for that.
        No matter what they say..
        A question....do you beleive there are 144.000 that will rule in heaven as kings along side Jesus.?
        Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-15 15:53:47
        Good question. I believe the number of 144,000 is symbolic.
        The number 12 comes up repeatedly in Revelation both by itself or in multiples:
        The city's wall measured 144 cubits
        The city's width measured 12,000 Stadia
        There were 12 different jewels making up its foundation.
        It had 12 gates made of 12 pearls and guarded by 12 angels.
        It had 12 foundation stones with the names of the 12 apostles.
        The 144,000 are from 12 tribes of 12,000 each.
        The woman had a crown of 12 stars.
        The trees of life produce 12 crops of fruit.
        There are 24 thrones upon which are seated the 24 elders.
        All of these are considered to be symbolic, so why do we take one out of all of them and say it is literal? True, there are 12 literal apostles, but their 12 names are not literally written above 12 literal gates made up of 12 literal massive pearls in a literal city measuring 1387.5 miles on a side (12,000 stadia = 2220 kilometers) And while the 12 tribes of Israel are literal, the 12 tribes making up the 144,000 in Revelation are not, since there never was a tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Levi was never counted as one of the 12. Why would John be inspired to make this substitution if he were talking literally not symbolically? Additionally, one cannot have a literal 144,000 be made up 12 symbolic tribes of 12,000 symbolic members.
        Having said all that, I should add that even if the 144,000 is a literal number, it doesn't exempt any of us from following the command to partake, because that command was given to all Christians and Paul's words to the Corinthians indicate that all Christians in the first century observed the Lord's evening meal. We like to point to the covenant Jesus made with his disciples as recorded in Luke to attempt to prove that the wine and bread is only for those going to heaven. However, that was made after the Lord's evening meal. He did not say that by drinking of the wine and eating of the bread we are in that covenant. That was made with those he said were "sticking with me in my trials". There is just too much we don't know. Too many things can be interpreted in too many ways for us to make bold assertions. As Paul said, we see a "hazy outline by means of a metal mirror".
        But what I do know is that Jesus gave us a clearly stated command. 'Partake of these emblems in memory of me and thus declare me until I return.' There were no conditions attached, no exemptions, no exclusions. So I'll be damned (quite literally) if I continue to let men influence me into disobeying my Lord and Master.
        Reply by on 2014-03-15 19:29:21
        Like you say, there is so much we don't know and I firmly believe we are in for some very big surprises.
        I understand about the literal and non literal numbers in Rev....I guess it will be a wait and see job.
        As for taking of the partaking at the memorial...I can see both sides of the coin......just not sure with that one.
        Perimeno beleives as you do.
        It would seem that is why there is such a big increase at the memorial.
        We are all progressing at different levels and stages....an interesting journey..
  - Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-14 17:52:59
    thinkingsis,
    Your story is so comparable to mine, that it has shocked me, yet made me feel relief. If this sounds a tad off beat.......no, no, it doesn't and I believe from what I have read in your posts, that your powers of comprehension are very well developed along with your spiritual and emotional generosity.
    I thank your for your utter candor and hope that there will be some truly sound discussions for us to have. Like you, I do not tend to bear a grudge. But! I don't have to blindly accept bad treatment either, I am humane with others as you no doubt are. I really do believe that through the examples that Jesus Christ set for us, so very long ago, I have become a little wiser and calmer these days. And perhaps I may never have reached out again for Jehovah and Jesus Christ had I not stumbled upon this site and commenced reading the articles posted by meleti and apollos
    Meleti had no problems with answering my initial emails as I tried to sound out the prevailing atmosphere here. I was satisfied that this site would not damage me spiritually and that it would be safe to continue on with my search for bible understanding and it's compelling truths.
    I would love to share my personal email with you, if you so desire and want you to know that I am respectful of others feelings. So fear not! thinkingsis, and thank you for your gutsy replies.

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-13 20:32:27
My dear brother umbertoecho, I am so saddened to hear about the loss of your daughter. I cannot imagine a worse pain than losing a precious child. I have heard that the pain never really goes away, but time is a great healer and it has a way of taking away some of the sting of death so that you can go on with your own life. It must be a daily struggle to deal with that loss. I will pray for you and I hope you can feel all the loving hearts on here who only want to enfold you in their love and support.
My own loving dad died 27 years ago, and I only have to close my eyes and it feels like I lost him only yesterday. Even to this day, I still have dreams about him. As long as I live and have a sound mind, I will keep his memory alive. Maybe we can help you to keep her memory alive.
We have all lost someone we love, it is inevitible. We all know how loss feels. But to lose a child....I can't even think about the possibility of losing my son...it just hurts more than I can bear.
Talking about the pain does help. It is part of the grieving process. And if it is healing for you, then please go ahead and say what is in your heart. Maybe if you post about your loss as a seperate discussion, those of us who feel your pain in our hearts, can offer more support and encouragement, perhaps even from someone else who has lost a child.
- Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-14 17:31:29
  Dear imacountrygirl2
  I am a woman, but it would be difficult to fathom that, due to the masculinity of my posting name. I am grateful for your compassion especially as it has no ulterior motive attached to it, but is expressed quite sincerely and in a sharing manner. I do not intend to promote myself as sad sack. Neither am I corralling sympathy. Having said this, I am very relieved to have been able to safely tell a little of my story in order that perhaps, all of us can open up on levels of intimacy that are often squashed or filtered within kingdom hall meetings. Thinkingsis has suffered about as much emotional pain as any I have suffered, and it was due to her ability to open up that I did. I suppose many of us are at the terminal limit of our ability to justify rotten behavior within this somewhat "aloof" religion.
  I have read the great advice, but do not see much of it being played out in reality. This site has saved me from losing the plot....for I felt so alone within the congregation. I was even told that to grieve too much for the loss of my daughter was a sign that my faith in Jehovah was lacking. What utter nonsense!!! Yet, at the time when I was told this, I humbly came home and prayed because of my "lack of faith" Wow, something has to give with this distorted version of what constitutes being a person of faith in God and Jesus does it not? I have found this religion has become cold to the touch these days and the lack of spontaneity at just about every level is siphoning off the joy of worship in so many people as I look around me at the meetings.
  So, thank you imacountrygirl2 and I will look forward to further communication with you.
  - Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-15 00:33:19
    That person that told you that Umbertoecho doesn't know his bible......Jacob refused to be consoled over the thought of losing Joseph.....did he lack faith!!!!
    We must not become like these ones....they mouth of about things they do not know....so much damage is done to honest hearted individuals in the cong.
    We have become as you say an aloof and cold faith....so far removed from our father.
    They are the modern day Pharisees,....that is not going to change....but we can be there for those standing hurt and bewildered in the shadows with in the cong....ones like us can aid them to endure till the end.
    Also we can help and aide each other in that endurance, I'm from Australia...yet here we all are from different lands doing just that.
    - Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-15 20:58:11
      thinkingsis,
      I forgot this about Jacob. Yes you are right! At the time as I was in a weak state of mind and becoming cautious of having a difference of opinion with my study conductors. They have been in the "truth" for..........ever, it seems. They were so implacable in their approach to the organization and it's teachings. They never liked to talk too much about the life of Jesus here on earth and what the implications of his mission on this earth meant for the rest of humanity.
      I started to notice the message of love from Christ in one of their publications called The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived. I wanted more of this, more and more of this kind of spiritual hope that Christ had been delivering to us humans, with the complete back up of His Father.
      They were uncomfortable about topics not strictly outlined in the "book study" program to which they to stick to, and to which I was supposed to follow in tandem with the societies prescription for salvation. They spoke of things like meat and baby food.........I told them I quite liked meat and vegies for that matter. Mistake!!! Humor was not allowed to come into this awfully serious topic of God. And, love for God Almighty (Jesus was left out of the main thrust of our bible studies) was measured by hours devoted in service, donations, and herd thinking abilities. They became a bit upset with me a few times and said something about me being "unteachable". What did that mean?

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-13 21:42:47
To Kev, in response to you about what you said about the apostle Paul as to him having Holy Spirit and so he must be correct in everything, I will say two things.
One Paul was not a perfect man and so was prone to making mistakes, and two we have people today who claim to be anointed and have holy spirit and they are not always correct in everything, how could they?
The Holy Spirit is their to assist us in progressing towards the truth and towards spiritual perfection, it does not mean that we are automatically correct in everything just because we have Holy Spirit, does it?
- Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-03-13 23:48:16
  A searcher for truth,
  I've watched this exchange all day. I mean no disrespect but what is your endgame here? You have obviously come to a site where people believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. We have brothers and sisters on this site who were moved by this article to talk about the death of their children and you want to debate about inspiration of The Bible.
  Based on what you have said so far, I'm not sure what led you to this site in the first place. What do you get out of being on this site?
- Reply by kev c on 2014-03-14 08:08:29
  No i said that because his knowledge was partial that doesnt mean to say he was wrong in what he wrote .not that because he had holy spirit he was correct in everything .If you went to see an expert lawyer would you cast aside his advice as wrong because hes an imperfect man like me and you .Dear thinkingsis reading your comment my heart goes out to you im so sorry to hear about your experience .warm christian love kev

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-03-14 00:16:02
A searcher for truth,
I’ve watched this exchange all day. I mean no disrespect but what is your endgame here? You have obviously come to a site where people believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. We have brothers and sisters on this site who were moved by this article to talk about the death of their children and you want to debate about inspiration of The Bible.
Based on what you have said so far, I’m not sure what led you to this site in the first place. What do you get out of being on this site?
You are asking what an Apostate is...you probably know the scriptures better than anybody on this site . You know what an Apostate is.
You are an Apostate. Believe me when I say that I'm not trying to be Malicious .
“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us” (1 John 2:19). You deny the teachings in the Bible from Flood account to the ransom so I'm not sure what if anything in the Bible can cause you to have any kind of Faith in God.(Hebrews 11:1)
We wish to remain in the teachings of what we believe to be holy scripture. I pray that you find your way back.
- Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-14 02:10:59
  And as I have stated before, to the Watchtower Society, most of you here are apostates.
  To you I am an apostate because I do not believe 100% percent in the Bible?
  I came here because I am interested in truth whether it is from Biblical concepts or other sources and believe me when i say that I have scrutinized quite a few sources for information that maybe truth.
  As I have stated before I was a baptized Jehovah's Witnesses for over 30 years and so yes I do have a reasonable knowledge of the scriptures as most JW witnesses.
  I have scrutinized all these JW and ex-JW sites. I was on Watchman's site for over two years and I was nearly kicked of that forum for promoting that we all should be partaking of the Lord's Evening meal and that we all had access to the Heavenly realms as God's Sons. Yes I was considered an apostate for this reasoning.
  But what did really got me kicked of in the end was that I had started to read the Urantia book and was explaining some of it's concepts, and I guess this did cause consternation among many of the forum's members.
  And so in a fashion I was kicked out of this particular cyber synagogue as it would appear I will be kicked of this one or prevented from posting here in anycase.
  Meleti's posts do interest me, because I can see that he is removing that veil that was created by the Watchtower Society and the Christian society in general, just as many of you are starting to see the erroneous teachings of the Watchtower Society.
  In a way the Bible itself is also proving itself to be a veil, causing many of it's adherents to go round and around in a circle never gaining an accurate knowledge of truth or gaining that genuine love that really identify one as a follower of Jesus.
  The "Spirit of Truth" is suppose to help us in this regards, and will "if we let it".
  Who do you think have created most of our wars over the last 1100 years or so?
  Why the Christians under the auspices of the Holy Roman Empire, the ones whom should have the love that identify them as followers of Christ.
  - Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-03-14 09:30:35
    Asft
    I don't pretend to know you at all. Why do you need confirmation from anyone here as to whether you are an Apostate.? What did you really expect us to say? I am not judging you I'm judging your actions. Ultimately that's between you and God.
    If the brothers disfellowshipped you for denying the teachings of the GB they were dead wrong. However if you were promoting the ideas and teachings you have posted on this site they were justified. Jesus entrusted Paul to take the lead in those congregations.Based on Paul 's view and Peter who walked with our Lord you would have been disfellowshipped from those congregations. You at minimum have deviated from the teachings of the apostles (Acts 2:42) which was based on the scriptures that includes Noah’s Ark and the creation accout. That is considered as apostatizing . If you have faith in Jesus then you trust the appointments of the apostles in those congregations.
    I don't know what when on in that JC. It is my hope that their actions did not contribute to your willful disbelief in God's word . You may want to examine whether you cannot believe because your lens is that of a physical man
    1 Cor2:13,14 “which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”
    I believe in snatching a brother from the fire but no one here is going to do that while you are kicking and screaming. You have to want it. Nobody here can give you faith. You need to beg our Lord to help you out where you need faith. ( Mark 9:24)
    You have every right to be leery of some of the teachings by the GB or any man . And if they sinned in dealing with you judicially they will render an account to God. Be careful not to charge their sin to God . I will stay in prayer for you brother I hope you do the same for me.
    If you have doubts that is another thing ……pray to God to help you resolve your doubts.
    As you have stated that we are all apostates in the GB's view. Who cares ? What matters is how God views us...right ?
    - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-14 19:17:58
      No I do not consider myself an apostate, but how others view me whether in person or on-line does effect me, and so I am sensitive to this and that is why sometimes I might overact to insinuations that I am an apostate.
      I was more-or-less disfellowshiped as an apostate for only referring to Biblical things and not for any other writings.
      I had not even heard of the Urantia papers or the Law-of-one or the Kolbrin Bible or the Sumerian texts, anunaki papers, and the list goes on.
      I had not even heard about any of these writings, I was only a student of the Bible and it was through research into just what the Bible had to say that I had determined that the Watchtower Society was wrong.
      Of course i had a little bit of help from ex-witness sites such as Perimeno, E-Watchman, Paradise-Cafe, Free-minds, JWFacts for instance that pointed me to certain scriptures that negated some of what the Watchtower Society were teaching their members.
      I have been disfellowshiped for over 6 years now and a reader of the Urantia book for about three years and my knowledge bank is slowly accumulating.
      I say slowly because my poor old brain is very slow in processing things and my memory storage ability is very poor, but still I manage.
      I continually refer to the Urantia book because I recognize truth within it that resonates personally with me.
      It may not with someone else, particularly those that recognize the Bible as the only source for God's words.
      The only source for God's word back in those times before Jesus came upon the Earth, was the writings of the Old Testament that the Jewish Scribes had compiled and referred to them as sacred texts or sacred writings.
      And then When Jesus came upon the Earth he offered the people a new Revelation of God and many of them refused to accept it except his disciples and even then at times they were stumbled over what he had said at times or even what he did.
      And then after Jesus died along came a new Revelation given to the apostle John, or John the divine, as some Christians call him.
      It has been almost 2000 years since that time period, do you think that God would not give us a new Revelation in view of the current time period when knowledge of our universe and science has become more abundant, or do you think that our loving God would just let us wallow in our own ignorance?
      I do believe that God does give us new writings when the time is ripe.
      Is the time ripe now?
      Well I personally do believe so.
      - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-14 23:54:28
        As my recent post states, the Bible tells us that it is for each one to make his or her own determination whether the teachings of an individual are acceptable or not and whether or not to listen to what he has to say based on 2 John 10, 11. It is not for me or anyone else to direct another person in that decision of conscience.
        I have not approved your most recent comments, not because I consider you an apostate. I have not approved them because you have failed to heed my previous direction to you and so I must state it more clearly now.
        In visiting this site, you have come into our home. This is a community of Christians who believe our Father, Jehovah, has given us his inspired word to lovingly guide us. We believe that Jesus is our brother who gave up his human life as a ransom to save us from death and extend to use the wonderful privilege of being with him forever in heaven as adopted sons of God. We come into this home to study the word of God, not listen to the unsupported opinions of men.
        If you come into someone's home, throw your opinions around without any proof and end up attacking the integrity and character of his Father and older brother, you should not consider yourself as a poor victim suffering persecution when he chucks you out in the street.
        Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-15 02:19:34
        Hi ASFT,
        I think we know each other,..sort of....I was known as Thinking on another forum.
        Were you then Futureman....if you are I know you are a very nice person.
        We have shared a joke or two and not exactly butted head but disagreed strongly on things so I won't add to that.
        Please..you have wandered the internet...and are now here..perhaps Jehovah is trying to show you something....have you thought of that....sometimes he has had to hit me over the head with a 4 by 4 to wake me up to his direction.....maybe your a bit like me.
        I'm glad Meleti has likened this site to a home...I was so relieved to read that.
        I left another little forum with loverly brothers and sisters because ex brothers were allowed on with their new age faiths...how can we rub shoulders with such ones knowingly and willingly and still expect Jehovahs blessings after reading Galations.
        I'm battle weary and need encouragement...we don't get that in our congs...but here seems to be different...a place of refuge and safety.
        Please rethink your new beliefs .....you don't have to be out in the cold.
        I really really wish you well.
      - Reply by Joel on 2014-03-16 07:08:44
        "I do believe that God does give us new writings when the time is ripe.
        Is the time ripe now?
        Well I personally do believe so."
        Can I ask you something? Why have you come to believe that God will provide new writings and why do you believe that so important?
        Revelation outlines in considerable detail what will occur in the end times confirmed by prophecies from Daniel, Isaiah, many others AND Jesus.
        On top of this God sent his Son Jesus to die for us and one of the main things he told us, is to wait for him. How many times in the Gospels and Revelation does Jesus say "he is coming"?
        What more would you have them do? If God sent us new writings with additional revelations, do you not think he would provide some credentials to go along with them as he did of old?
        While there have been some prophecies in the bible that name names and are very specific, others are coded. The beasts, the man of lawlessness, the mark of the beast. There are specifics, but there is nothing you could point to that is beyond doubt if you are trying to relate it to the time we are living in.
        bFor example, the man of lawlessness? A singular fulfillment? composite? a composite-singular? I have personal views, but I find it hard to accept that the MoL is Christendoms clergy as I was taught for example. I'm not saying that Christendom may not be a part of it, but it seems to me, reading the scriptures that the final outworking of this prophecy will be hard to miss and dramatic - when it happens.
        Honestly, for that matter I'm not even sure we are living in the end times, or at least the end of the end. I grew up being taught that I would never have to die. There are quite a few generations gone before me who are now dead that were taught the same thing. I was taught from birth that 2520 + destruction of Jerusalem = Jesus enthronement and casting down of Satan. I was taught from birth that the "great crowd" resided on Earth. Now I am a bit older, as I read scripture and when necessary do the logic and the math there are a number of things that would seem not to align with that. Jesus said that at a time we DO NOT expect it to be he is coming. The teaching of something unknown as "truth" that is very dangerous, it leads to unfulfilled expectations.
        I am grateful that so far my faith did not give out completely. I decided to study for myself instead of giving up.
        The world and times we are living in are certainly interesting. Believe me, I see many of the features you mentioned in another post and I there are several things starting to mature on the world scene that are quite ominous, but not conclusive. I'm sure people thought the Cold war was "it" at the time. We have been told that in the last days, at Armageddon, the whole of mankind will be united against God. The whole of mankind will worship the MoL. That the 2 horned beast will direct all to worship the image of the beast. That no one lacking the mark of the beast will be able to trade. I don't see these as having been fulfilled yet, unless I completely missed the boat? - which is possible!
        However, if you keep on the watch for these things looking for them to unfold, I'm sure it will be a safeguard and help to maintain faith and expectancy.
        With all of this information we have though, Gods promises, Jesus sacrifice - what is the need for additional writing?

Comment by thinkingsis on 2014-03-14 03:10:55
Hi Umbertoecho,
Sorry sister...but you seem to be a brother..lol.....my mistake.
I don't know how long ago you lost your daughter but soon dear brother you will have her back.....there is a saying I read.......TIME DOES NOT EASE THE PAIN.....YOUR LEGS JUST GET STRONGER
I hope this is true for you dear brother.....not long now...we are nearly there
Warm Christian hug to you and your family.
- Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-14 18:26:20
  thinkingsis,
  Not a problem. It is easy to make a mistake as to the gender of a person, especially as we are incognito here.
  A loving thought..........straight back to you. With all Christian warmth.

Comment by emilyjeff on 2014-03-14 14:24:38
Thinkingsis I would like to extend my profound sympathy for what you have suffered. I agree with Meleti that your son is now safe with his loving heavenly Father and you will see him in the resurrection.
I too used to be reluctant to criticize the organization because I thought it was the “truth” but in the last year I have learned so much about them that I no longer consider myself a Jehovah’s Witness but rather simply a Christian. I don’t post very often anymore as I’m afraid I will offend some by my outspokenness and for all my bluntness of speech I can and have been hurt.
I agree with your opinion of the video that purports to advise elders as to how to deal with a suicidal person. The video is poorly produced and as you say dangerous to anyone who has suffered from depression or has suicidal thoughts. These feelings can only be treated by a professional or at the very least someone who has compassion and is willing to listen and offer whatever help they can. Yes, the part where the elder looked upward and thanked Jehovah as though all was well now that the sister was “apologizing for forgetting the cookies” was sickening and it enraged me that a subject such as suicide could be treated in such a cavalier manner. And the suggestion that this sister repeat a scripture as though it were a mantra and banish suicidal thoughts as you would an immoral thought is beyond comprehension to me and shows that the organization hasn't a clue as how to deal with the subject of depression or suicide. Actually many years ago when I was much younger a fellow JW told me that Jehovah’s Witnesses didn't suffer from depression as though by doing so you were admitting you had fallen short in some way of the standard set for a good Witness.
When I was going through a very dark period in my life I found comfort, not from my congregation, but in the Bible, especially at Psalms 142 from the Good News Bible:
I call to the Lord for help;
I plead with him.
I bring him all my complaints;
I tell him all my troubles.
When I am ready to give up,
he knows what I should do.
In the path where I walk,
my enemies have hidden a trap
for me.
When I look beside me,
I see that there is no one to
help me,
no one to protect me.
No one cares for me.
Lord, I cry to you for help;
you, LORD, are my protector;
you are all I want in this life.
Listen to my cry for help,
for I am sunk in despair.
Save me from my enemies,
they are too strong for me.
Set me free from my distress;
then in the assembly of your
people I will praise you
because of your goodness to
me.
There are some good articles in the Watchtower but the problem I have with them is that they are only words. If they are not translated into action they are worthless. No, we don’t live in a spiritual paradise. We live in the real world where bad things happen to good people.
I hope I haven’t offended any of the posters on this board but as I said at the beginning I have become quite outspoken. I believe that Jehovah is our heavenly Father and his son, our Lord Christ Jesus, died to ransom us so that we can have a righteous standing before our father and the hope of a resurrection. As to the rest I’ll leave that in the hands of our Lord.
- Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-14 18:32:41
  emilyjeff,
  That was a good scripture to read through. I agree about being a Christian too, as it seems we have ignored the extremely important role of Jesus Christ in our future. I do hope you will feel free to be blunt, or comfortable enough to speak from a spirit of honesty when you do express your thoughts here. The provider of this site has. This has given me a lot of hope and taken away much fear and loneliness.
- Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-15 01:05:43
  Please please keep commenting EMILYJEFF, I'm so new here and it would appear to be rather forward.
  It's just that I've been starving for companionship and had to leave a loverly little forum because those that were once brothers were allowed on promoting their new found new age faith.
  It really bother my conscious to rub shoulders with them considering the advise at Galatians.
  I was really sad to leave those brothers and sisters....I'm just so releived to find this site.
  We all need each other so much, you will not say anything to offend me.
  We need to express our pain, our doubts....otherwise how can we get better.....
  MALACHI 3:6
  At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention.
  And a book of remember emcee begun to be written up before him, for those in fear of Jehovah and those thinking upon his name.
  I beleive that is the likes of us.
  - Reply by BN on 2014-03-15 17:11:14
    I just want to say that I'm in the middst of it right now: my son has had several attempts to kill himself, and I'm afraid he someday will succeed. (He's been in theraphy for years) When he was disfellowshipped this time (second - now he struggles with selfmedication - I just told him to stay out, do to they persecuting him since he was 15 (then wanting him to tell on others - he wasn't baptised) He was 1 year in reehab, came back and got baptised. After some years he fell in love with a girl from a just now wartreathened country. She wasn't a sister and I didn't now how cruel some could be when I saw how they treated them bouth. He got disfellowshipped for sleeping with her before marrying - which is absolute not right because Jesus said that marriage is leaving your father and mother, beeing one and stay together. He did not say anything about papers or getting married! (no such thing in the bible) A young couple in my cong got disfellowshipped after they got married for the same thing. They were also planning their wedding, became one and met with the elders. Before the elders came to a conclution they went to city hall and got married ...This is almost 14 years ago and since then I've been wondering about our disefellowship system. My son lost it again when his wife whent back to her country do to she didn't like living here (who could blame her) He had a meeitng with the elders and then he was in a severe car accident and do to memoryloss forgot the next meeting. They then decided he wasted their time ...I'm sorry but I can only tell the good elders I've met on one hand. .I'm so sorry for everybody who had to go through the pain and sorrow of loosing a child. I now I'm not offered the heavenly hope, although I always felt I didn't belong in this world. My parents were atheists and I still wonder about my son - since he has experienced some special moments. (and I think his spirituality is killed inside the org) Have you visited 4woman forum ? (Sorry my english writings).
    - Reply by on 2014-03-15 18:48:32
      I'm so sorry about your son, in a way to some extent you are living my nightmare.
      I know this sounds like a ..mm perhaps not a spiritual answer...but I would keep him away from the org.
      He is not well....he has a long way to go .
      Jehovah only wants from each of us what we can do...he doesn't want, what we have not got.
      Help your son to get well emotionally and physically...that is vital.
      That takes a long time......if and when he does let him just read the scriptures and get strong from that and Jehovahs holy spirt.
      We don't rely on the Holy Spirit enough....brothers in the org no longer rely on it...
      It may take a very long time but if he's up to it and strong spiritually...perhaps half a meeting now and then...if that's all he can cope with so be it...
      As far as 4 woman in the wilderness.
      Yes I followed we he writings for a while....
      You must make up your own mind....she knows her scriptures but I came to the conclusion she was a false phrophetes ...so there for dangerous
      Remember the Israelites in the wilderness...remember when Moses took his time coming down from the mountain.(just like Jesus seems to be taking his time coming back )
      Aaron made a golden calf and they worshipped it
      What did the faithful Israelites do....did they leave and go of into the wilderness....they sure seemed to have had reason too.
      No the waited until Moses returned.....he then sorted them out. Saying......those for Jehovah get behind me......the rest were slayed....
      We are the Israelites in the wilderness....should we leave because of the hypocrisy and idolatry ( NGO affair etc ). Jesus seems to be taking his time in coming back to us just as Moses did.
      This is where endurance comes in.....this is where faith comes into it.
      Do we think Jehovah is weak....blind...do we think he will tolerate what is going on in the org.....NO he is allowing it......we need to have faith in him..that he can and will correct his people.
      Have no fear...he will discipline us as a people.
      Jehovahs people have ALWAYS become corrupted....ALWAYS...did he not act and discipline his people every time....EVERY single time.....why now are so many saying flee the org.
      This in itself is a test....he has clearly written down how he has always stepped in and disciplined his people.....these things were written down for a example for us...we need to learn how Jehovah has always handled his people...that's why he has written them down...he didn't hide those examples of corruption....
      These things you have to work out for your self....no one can rush you.
      No one can push you.....it's a very confusing time isn't it.
      I would read read read gods word and beg for Holy Spirit ...and concentrate your energies on your son sister......that is a exhausting process in itself.
      Concentrate on him......Jehovah is not cruel...he knows as a parent how hard you are trying....he knows you are wearing down...just love your son and don't put any spiritual demands on him at all.....sounds easy but once they are adults we can not take them home and look after them...in my case my son was with his wife and family..I wanted to take him home but he wouldn't come.
      I actually had him in the car but he tried to get out while I was driving so I had to stop and give in to him.
      You have such a hard road ahead sister...you need to look after yourself so you can help him.
      If you don't then how can you be of any use to him.
      Please keep in touch and any way I can help I will..you may email me if you wish.
      Thinkingsis xxxx
    - Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-16 15:34:17
      Dear BN
      Please feel free to contact me if you wish. As you can see, we are many; that are dealing with this phenomenon of self destruction within the family. I do think the organization is beginning to slowly awaken, yet this may be a bit too late......so many younger ones have been left feeling terribly isolated and have lost their sense of dignity through such harsh treatment such as "marking" and disfellowshipping.
      I am off to "interfere" today in the welfare of my nephew, as I am worried that his parents are not taking his situation with the gravity that it needs.
      They cannot save him by using the impractical approach of reading scriptures to him, and telling him......a shunned, lost, lonely, guilt ridden young man.........to pray to a God that he has been told no longer listens due to his removal from the organization.
      Such advice is pointless and is a very good way of appearing to do the right thing, without doing a damned thing. Feel free to make contact, please take care and as you can see...many are here to listen and respond to this urgent problem.

Comment by Ross on 2014-03-14 16:13:05
To ‘A searcher for truth:’
a Christian who questions the inspiration of parts of the Word of
God has ‘fallen away from’ the Christian faith, which is the
scriptural definition for apostasy. Mat 5:18b
“Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching
of the Christ does not have God. If anyone comes to you and
does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes
or say a greeting to him, for he that says a greeting to him is a
sharer in his wicked works.” 2 Jo 9-11
“For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been
enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift... but who
have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because
they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose
Him to public shame.” Heb 6:4-6
For you to say that the word of God is hindering people from
gaining an accurate knowledge of truth is nothing short of
blasphemous, as is your denial that the ransom of Christ was
given to reveal God’s righteousness, which is the foundation
on which the Christian faith rests.
How could you ever repent of this apostasy, given your long
Christian background?
The ‘Urantia’ nonsense you believe in is anti-Christian, so can’t
you find a pagan forum to promote your lies?
- Reply by kev c on 2014-03-14 17:53:24
  In fact while we are on this subject relating to 2 john 2 v7 we could ask why did john give such strong counsel to avoid those who teach that jesus did not come in the flesh .in my opinion the implications are serious Hebrews 10 v 5 onwards therefore when christ came into the world he said sacrifice and offering you did not want but a body you prepared for me verse 9 .and 10 then he said here i am i am come to do your will he sets aside the first to establish the second and by that will we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of jesus christ .So it seems clear to me that by denying that jesus came in the flesh they were effectively denying the ransom of Of his body . 1 Timothy 2 v6 ..kev

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-14 21:36:35
To Meleti, it is clear to me that you do not wish me to respond to you because you remove the reply feature, as it would appear.
But anyway I will respond to you here in this section in regards to why I am here.
To be honest I do not really know myself why I come here just to verbally get beaten up on, and told to be on my way like some mongrel dog or something.
Yet that is how you are treating me.
I take comfort in that fact that most of the prophets of the past and Ernest Christians who had something to say were also treated this way by those who did not take kindly to their message or what they had to say.
One day Meleti, you will also be treated this way by the organization that you belong to and believe you me it will not be pleasant, the after effects of it.
To some degree I have been psychologically damaged by what has happened to me, but at the same time it has opened up to me a pathway to knowledge and ultimately enlightened. So it is a mixed blessing.
At times I feel compelled to be on certain sites and I do not really know myself why.
But I do believe that God knows why and what I am here for.
I can only guess that your site is ripe for people to have their thinking processes stimulated to explore knowledge where otherwise they would not even have considered to look.
It is like a man looking for buried treasure who only looks in one area religiously, and then told later on that perhaps if he really wanted to find the treasure that he is looking for, to considered looking somewhere else where it may be more suitable for this.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-15 17:26:24
  I do not remove the reply feature. If the replies get down to the sixth level, the reply feature goes away, because the limit has been reached. What you do is then scroll up to the previous reply and click that.
  You are quite welcome to continue to speak on this site as long as you do not promote anti-scriptural teachings, teachings of demons, or just vent. The purpose of the site is Bible research.
  - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-15 22:01:00
    I am sorry about the misunderstanding about the reply feature, I did not know and so my accusation was unwarranted, so I do apologize to you for that.
    As to the other things that you have mentioned how is one to have any discussion on anything if they cannot refer to other writings from time to time?
    Is that not a narrow position to take?
    I have reconsidered my statement about the "ransom sacrifice" here on this forum and realized that it is clearly a stumbling block for most here on this forum, and despite my understanding of it at this stage I do need to consider other people who are on this forum, as to how they would react and so it was not a wise subject even to broach here on this forum.
    I am certainly not the most diplomatic man in the world, that is for sure.
    Anyway to get of this topic, are you aware of the trouble just ahead, that is planned by the world's elite?
    It is certainly a very interesting scenario to watch as it unfolds.
    Keep your eye on what is going on in the Ukraine and the tousling going on between Russia and America and it's allies.
    Also keep your eye on Obama, what he is doing, changing legislation and laws at will.
    It reminds me of a scripture in Daniel where it indicates that this is a real possible scenario unfolding right before our own eyes.
    The probability of it happening is very high indeed.
    Daniel 7
    21 I was looking, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them,
    22 until the Ancient of Days came. And judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
    23 And He said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, and shall devour all the earth, and shall trample it down and crush it.
    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings; they shall rise, and another shall rise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings.
    25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one half time.[LITV]
    Yes I certainly still do read the Bible and study it, but you do not understand my view of it as it is indeed foreign to you and many here on this forum, that is people like me who think outside the box.
    If it was not for the Bible in the first place, I would not be now watching world events as they unfold, with a keen eye and expectancy.
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-16 00:43:37
      Let's avoid speculation, shall we?
    - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-16 01:24:32
      So we cannot even speculate on this forum now?
      Or is it just me that you don't want to speculate?
    - Reply by search4truth on 2014-03-16 04:41:39
      Hi Searcher , whatever the elite , Obama or Putin will do, does't matter. We as a christians rely on God and Christ . Our job is to encourage each other in good works and love . Our opinions may differ on some subject but that's not a problem if we respect and love each other as a brothers. There is no need to push own opinion on other people. Love.
      - Reply by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-16 07:34:01
        Sometimes, I wonder why I even bother to talk about these things.
        I somehow was gullible enough to think that people here were honestly interested in the truth and finding out what is going on on this God forsaken planet.
        Just all of you put your head in the sand and forget about it.
        You people have prophecies in the Bible to peruse , a Book which you so revere, yet you do not even want to discuss it's prophecies.
        Instead I get accused of speculating by the one who runs this site.
        What is wrong with you people?
        If that sounds a bit harsh, I am sorry about that, but that is how I feel about it.
        Oh no, i was venting, that is not allowed here.
        Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-16 08:42:05
        Speculation is fine as long as you label it as such. Our magazines are full of speculation presented as Bible truth, and we come to this site to be free of that. All here are free to present their ideas and theories about the meaning of any Bible prophecy, but we do that by showing logically from scripture the basis for our understanding. When you start doing this, your speculations will be welcome.
        You do seem to love to play the victim. The righteous preacher of truth, misunderstood by the world, persecuted by those he only wishes to save.
        The beauty of the Bible is that it is a sword that cuts right to the heart of a matter and can "discern thoughts and intentions of the heart". (Hebrews 4:12) You would attempt to disarm us by convincing us that much of it is apocryphal and that there are other books that contain God's truth, but we will not lay down our sword and surrender.
        If you have something to impart that comes from God's word, then by all means, share it with us. But if, as you say, you just wish to vent, then please do not do it here.
        Reply by Joel on 2014-03-16 10:55:07
        "God forsaken" and "the Bible, a book YOU people so revere".
        I am personally happy to speak about any source of information within reason and to muse on the world scene, history, meanings and interpretations etc. I have responded at length to many of your comments, as have others, offering scriptures to clarify on points you have made, but you only seem to be interested in cherry picking truth from here and there. Your views are repeatedly inconsistent. On the one hand a fellow believer, in the other hand a new truth beyond Jesus and the bible. On the one hand you quote Paul where you think it pertains to acquiring knowledge, on the other he didn't know what he was talking about. On the one hand you can see bible prophecy unfolding, on the other, it is just a book. Some of us have said that we will consider other information if you have proof, but you never offer any. As Meleti also pointed out many times and I am conscious of it, the site is for bible research and it is not proper to hijack it with too many tangents. It will detract from the research. So I would not wish for you to take this as personal attack in the least, or for you to feel discouraged in pursuing the truth, but what I am trying to say is that with this comment is that unless you can show me that you believe Jesus is the son of God and you believe in the bible, I cannot say anything more than I already have.
- Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-16 15:44:31
  A searcher for truth,
  I am sorry that you have a persecution complex. I am also sorry that you are reading such a book as the Urantia book, which was published in 1955 and was "apparently" inspired by a man who was completely unconscious throughout his "inspired expressions" then upon gaining consciousness had absolutely no recollection of anything he had said.
  This book has been fairly well tested and makes some assertions that are very insubordinate to the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  When I read the passage about the "financial" directions that Jesus supposedly gave to his brother, I almost burst out laughing at the ludicrousness of it all. You are reading something that is inspired by a very dark force indeed, and you are happily following along.....I do not trust you here.

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-15 03:31:02
My deepest and sincere apologies to my "Sister" umbertoecho for assuming that you were my brother.
Also my deepest love and sympathy to thinkingsis for the loss of your son to suicide. It is my hope that you do not feel guilt over your son's death, because it is too heavy a burden to place upon yourself when it is not your fault. If a person has decided in their heart to take their own life, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it, no matther how much you loved him. No one can be responsible for another person's choices. He did the only thing that he felt he had left to do, he saw no other way out. It was his choice and not yours. It was his mental illness which robbed him of the ability to make rational decisions. Mourn his death, but please do not punish yourself over it.
It is not a lack of faith, Doctors and scientist now know that it is a chemical imbalance in the brain and they have only recently learned this and are challenged with treating the symptoms of mental illness. The drugs used contain chemicals for your brain and it takes patience to work with a doctor until you find the drug, or combination of drugs that helps your particular brain imbalance. A person is completly powerless against curing themselves. Could you cure yourself of diabetes? Could you cure yourself of cancer?
My depression once caused me to consider suicide as a way to end my pain. But I got help from professionals.
What I found helped me was a combination of Medication, individual and group counseling, peer to peer support groups with other people with mental illness, writing down the swirling thoughts in my head putting them into words in a diary, spending time taking care of myself, listening to music almost every day, Emotional work is very tiring and left me with no energy so I rested and slept a lot. Cut myself a lot of slack. At my lowest, I wasn't able to go to meetings, or field service. I could not even pray nor read the Bible.
I made myself a recovery toolbox where I kept things that made me feel good like a stuffed animal to cuddle, pictures of myself growing up, family pictures, coloring book and crayons, a handheld solitaire game, my Kingdon Song book, etc. Those were resources I used when I started feeling sad. I started writing poetry. I started exercising. Then I started volunteering and doing things for other people. For me, it took all of these things for me to get where I am today. I've acepted that I will have to take medication for the rest of my earthly life, short of a cure being found. I know I am not cured, but I have learned coping skills to deal with difficulties in life. I learned how to say "no". I learned how to set boundaries. I learned how to cut toxic people who only drained me of energy out of my life. To not live in my head, but to live in the moment.
In a private email, I recently shared my personal experience with mental illness, which I think is applicable here too as I feel very strongly about mental illness, such as depression, bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia, etc. I beg apologies to the person I wrote, but I am only quoting part of my own email, and if my own experience can help anyone on here, then I think it is worth posting it as I do not mind sharing my own personal story and thoughts about mental illness.
"It took me a while to find my "voice" as I call it. We each find that "voice" at different points or circumstances in our lives. I was diagnosed with depression nearly 20 years ago, and I got the most amazing professional help during several years of treatment. Then I found out about peer-to-peer support groups and got involved in those. There is something so profound when you talk to someone who know's exactly what you are going through. (Like this site)
I was invited to a weekend retreat for people with mental illness, and when I was at meetings, or at mealtime, or at breaktime, I had the most amazing feeling of unconditional love and acceptance among other people who struggled with different mental illnesses. That experience changed my life. Maybe because I was raised as a witness, I always felt different from everybody else. No parties, no holidays, no flag salute, no birthday celebration, no dating. I felt issolated and as though I was on the outside looking in on life. Never fully accepted by the world and my strange religion. Never fully accepted at the KH. Never part of that "in-group" that you find at most KHs. That weekend changed everything for me. Here I was with all these worldy people, each of us dealing with an emotional illness of some kind. It bonded us together. At that moment in time, I belonged somewhere.
Later I realized how different our medical treatments were. I had more resources to help me than most of them all put together had, for the most part. Most had an experience of being beaten down by life. Of always having to struggle for the most basic of needs. Of having to accept whatever life dealt them. Of being looked down on by society as a whole, simply because their brain had a chemical imbalance. And none of it was their fault. No body chose to have a mental illness. It was not their life-long dream to grow up and have a short in their brain. The mental health system just ground them up and spit them out. Most of them had no voice. Then it came to me that I could be their voice. So I started speaking up and speaking out about my depression. Just telling my story to someone made me stronger. The more I spoke up, the more confidence I gained. I even got strong enough and brave enough to speak about being molested as a child. When I was willing to admit that out loud, it seemed to give other people the confidence for them to speak up about their abuse. I have lost count of how many people would tell me later "I've never told another person what happened to me". It was a healing thing to do. To talk about it and bring it out into the open. Once you let horrible secrets like that out of the confinement of your mind, you begin healing."
This is from my heart to all my dear brothers and sisters.
- Reply by thinkingsis on 2014-03-15 05:00:57
  What a beautiful post sister, how kind and knowing you are.
  The sort of knowing and depth can only come from suffering.
  Your suffering has made you the person you are today, you didn't waste those scars you carry.
  You have and are putting them to good and valuable use.
  Everything you have said is true...I am one hundred percent sure Jehovah will or already is using you in some way.
  Keep speaking up...I also came out of the closet....the depression closet that is.
  It is in epidemic proportions today, with in the cong and out of it.
  20 odd years ago when I travelled that hell, being in the truth was the very worst place to be with depression. It is a wonder any survive to tell the tale.
  Many don't.
  Having being brought up in the truth...well probably just made things worse.
  Being molested May have started it all.....my son told me that day that he also had been molested.
  How many broken souls in the truth suffer with that.
  I'm glad I came from the world....strange thing to say but sometimes those bought up within the world of the organization can not relate to the life that so many out there live with.
  You have done so well sis...by all means if you wish to talk by email just let me know.
  How different things would be if Jesus was running the org his way....I wish he would hurry up.
  Your loving sister thinkingsis xxx

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-15 04:50:20
To ‘A searcher for truth:’ Your very name implies that you are still searching for truth. I know and understand that feeling very well. I believe a lot of us who grew up trusting and believing the GB, after finding out just how many lies they have told us and deceptions they have practiced going back many years, makes us doubt everything we've ever been told. If you were like me, you just took it for granted that everything you heard at the KH was true. Now I question everything and unless it resonates with my heart, I put it on hold, until I can examine it closely and I accept there are probably some things even written in the Bible, I simply do not understand.....YET.
I had about a two hour discussion with my son today, and like you, he has read a lot about different cultures, long before Jesus came to the earth, who have a very similar theme as the Bible, with a Creator and a Son, though with different names for each than we use. I admitted that I had not read those, including the book that you mentioned. He feels like I am limiting myself by believing the Bible's account of God, and not reading all the other history that has been recorded from long ago before I make my decision.
We agreed to disagree on some things, but we both came to the realization that we were not hearing each other, we listened, but we did not respect each other's right to have our own belief. It was an admission for both of us to make that we were guilty of doing that to each other. It was like all he could think of was why wasn't I listening to his reasoning and accepting it on face value as truth....while I was thinking why wasn't he listening to my reasoning and accepting it on face value as truth?
His final conclusion was that he could not find any proof that the Bible was true.....and he could not find any proof that it wasn't true.
This is were faith comes in. I have a need to believe in someone bigger than me, someone who is in control, namely God as our Creator and Jesus as his son and our Saviour and that I need association with others of like faith. I have faith in the Bible, even though there is nothing that I can provide to prove that it is the truth. That is what faith is all about as Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists." (ISV) The Holy Bible satisfies my need....and this site satisfies my need for association. It is so lonely, so isolated trying to go it alone.
What makes me so happy about today is that as we were talking he mentioned some texts in the Bible....which tells me that he is still seaching for truth....just as you are. Perhaps he is trying on ideas, until he finds the one that will be his truth. He was raised in the truth, but left the truth when he was a teen. How odd to talk about the truth, as though it were real, now that I am learning the Truth about the Truth. That is our problem, recognizing which is real. Now we have to search out everything in order to determine the real "Truth" from the truth we believed wholeheartedly previously, but which was in fact, not all supported scriptually, but were twisted to suit the GB purposes. And everyone of us on here fell for it, until our eyes of understanding were opened.
I sympathise with the position you are in, in fact we are all in. I wish you well on your search for truth. I hope you find your truth one day, which you will then have to put your faith in, since nothing can be proved either way. With an open, sincere, honest heart, I hope we all can find the truth, though it may come one scripture at the time.

Comment by emilyjeff on 2014-03-15 14:37:09
Thank you for your kindness Thinkingsis. I know you have suffered greatly and my heart goes out to you. You have offered encouraging words to me and I want to thank you for that. I too have suffered from depression most of my life and have been in therapy and take medication. I can identify with imacountrygirl2 as I too was always the outsider in and out of the JW religion. I’ll tell you a little of my story. I became a Jehovah’s Witness many decades ago and over the years I was in and out several times. I don’t mean I stopped believing but being different meant I didn't fit the picture and never found the Christian family I was looking for among what I thought of as God’s people but instead found a people who would judge you if you didn't measure up to their standards. I was always looking for acceptance and kindness among “God’s people” but rarely found it. For me it was about the lack of love, but of course I always believed it was my fault for not being a good enough JW. Even after there was a very painful wrong done to me by the elders of the congregation I still believed but could no longer attend the meetings because I felt so betrayed. I finally understood why all these things could happen when I started to read the posts on Meleti’s board a year ago. When I would read at John 13:35: “Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples" I couldn't understand why I didn't find it among the JW’s I knew. Once I knew they weren't God’s chosen people it finally made sense. It’s hard to let go of something you believed to be true for most of your life but I have spent the last year on a journey to find the truth. I've read the books written by Ray Franz and am now reading Carl Olof Jonsson’s books as well which reveal a true picture of the WT and its false teachings. I’m also researching the development of the early Christian church and the part women played in that. I feel as though I had been asleep for most of my life but now I’m awake and I want others to see that this organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses we obeyed without question is just another false religion and seeks to control by fear and guilt. True Christianity is found in the Bible and in the words and actions of Christ and his apostles. When Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment of the law he said: 'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' So it all comes down to love. None of us is perfect but if we try to use love and kindness in dealing with each other that’s enough for me. As I said I no longer consider myself a Jehovah’s Witness but I am trying to be a Christian although I know I fall short of the mark. Christ is our King and we owe our allegiance to him not the GB of an organization that has systematically cut him out of the picture and denies us the privilege of being children of God through Christ’s sacrifice. This is especially true now that we are approaching the time of the Lord’s evening meal. It was Christ’s command that we share in the bread (unleavened) and the wine as a means for remembering him and for expressing faith in his ransom sacrifice. This was meant for all who put faith in that sacrifice, not for just a small group of special “anointed ones.” Well I've been outspoken again and it is not my wish to offend anyone. I hope the others on this board understand that what I have said is my truth. It is not meant to judge or condemn anyone else for what they believe. I leave the judging to the only one who has that right, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-15 19:21:33
EmilyJeff, I am so happy you are sharing from your heart! I agree with everything you have said. And you said it so well. Loving God and loving all of mankind, who are in fact the true definition of our brothers, because we are all God's children as well as brothers and sisters of Jesus and to each other, is exactly what Jesus commanded us all to do.....the only thing he told us we must do if we want him to be our Saviour. So very simple, not at all complicated or impossible to do. Love is the only answer to salvation.

Comment by emilyjeff on 2014-03-15 19:31:32
Thank you so much imacountrygirl2. Your kindness humbles me and brings tears to my eyes.

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-15 19:31:33
My dear sister thinkingsis, My heart was wrenched when you said your son confessed he had been molested, just before his suicide. Was the sexual abuse of your son from someone within the congregation?
- Reply by on 2014-03-15 19:52:35
  No it wasn't, but his friend he grew up with in the truth was molested by some one in the cong...another publisher.
  The brothers never ever found out about that....he had already left the truth anyway.
  My son suffered a lot, I have not put in half of what he went thru.
  His biggest betrayal was by his spiritual family I guess.....they made him feel as if his God did not want him....but he overcome that before his death.
  To me that proved he was more spiritual than the elders were.
  I thought I had kept a good eye on my boys, ...it is hard to cope with...I hate this world.
- Reply by on 2014-03-15 20:18:57
  I did reply but it hasn't come thru so I will again.
  No it wasn't .......he wept tears the last day about it...he actually suffered more than I have written....what I have written is enough for people to understand....
  I have never been molested my self...I can only TRY to understand
  He said he thought about it every day and had tremendous guilt.......
  His pain broke my heart.....it still does...I relive his pain all the time.....I hate this world.

Comment by Bobcat on 2014-03-15 19:38:32
Meleti:
In this rendering [ href="http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/18-15.htm"><Matthew 18:15], Jesus gives no indication that the sin referred to is personal in nature. So one could arrive at the conclusion that this is how one deals with all sin in the congregation. However, this is one of many examples where the translators of the NWT have been sloppy. The interlinear rendering of this passage clearly shows that the sin is committed “against you”. So we are talking about sins like slander, stealing, fraud, etc.
In regards to the above quoted paragraph (where I inserted "Matthew 18:15" for context's sake, and I bolded the particular words I am focusing on):
First, this is not to complain about your article. I appreciate many of the points you brought out. But as one who has pointed out problems with the NWT, out of fairness to the NWT, I wanted to point out that the rendering in the NWT of "commits a sin" in Matthew 18:15, rather than "commits a sin against you," is not sloppy, but represents a careful consideration of the available MSS support.
The words "against you" are not found in some important early MSS (mainly Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus). You had a clickable link to BibleHub's Matthew 18:15 Greek page (which I hopefully was able to duplicate above). If you scroll down to below the excel style layout of the verse, the page gives several examples of master Greek texts, including Westcott & Hort, which the earlier NWT was based on (compare the Kingdom Interlinear also). The revised NWT (2013) has been updated, of course, and often gives preference to the UBS3 text which also has eis se ("against you") in brackets as a questionable reading.
There is scholarly debate about whether the idea of "against you" should be read into the text, even with the words excluded. R. T. France, for one, explores the possiblty that it refers to any sin that a Christian may become aware of his brother committing. His comments on that possibility are very interesting. But the majority of commentaries that I have seen accept the phrase as referring to sins of a personal nature just as the Society does (and as your writeup suggests).
Incidentally, Matthew 18:15 has a parallel in Luke 17:3 which omits "against you" after "commits a sin," but includes "against you" in the following context. "Against you" might also have been added to 18:15 due to the similar phrase in 18:21.
A complicating factor is that, in Greek, eis se ("against you") has a similar sound to the ending of "commits a sin" (amartese), and thus, may have been left off by a copyist thinking he had just heard the ending of "commits a sin," or added because the copyist thought the ending of "commits a sin" was the additional words.
As a side thought for those interested, here are a few verses to compare the revised NWT with the earlier edition. The NT verses all show a preference for the UBS master text over Westcott & Hort. (I won't mention what changed. I leave that for those interested in comparing):
Gen 19:20, 21 (interesting change of thought)
Judges 19:18; 1 Sam 2:25; 6:3; 10:26; 23:14; 23:16 (all share same change)
Matthew 21:28-30 (you have to compare closely)
1 Corinthians 16:2 (the new change makes the verse sensible)
Ephesians 1:15 (Compare also with Col 1:4)
Romans 1:1; 2 Cor 1:19; Php 1:6; 2:21; Titus 2:13 (same change in common)
Here are a few on my pet peeve list that should have changed but didn't:
Matthew 10:15; 11:22, 24; 12:36 (all share the same problem; cmp 2 Pet 2:9; 3:7)
Romans 6:7
Eph 4:8
Rev 1:10 (See discussion href="http://meletivivlon.com/2014/03/03/wt-study-worship-jehovah-the-king-of-eternity/#comment-9517here)
- Reply by Bobcat on 2014-03-15 19:42:06
  Oh well. Back to the drawing board for the clickable links. :(
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-15 21:00:16
  The irony is that I spent a couple of days working out the logic of applying Matthew 18:15-17 to all sins, not just personal ones. It was your comment about Revelation 1:10 that caused to me question the rendering of Matthew 18:15, so I researched it and had to rewrite that portion.
  Argh! :)
  Well, that's what this forum is for, to deepen our understanding of Scripture. Certainly, if this applies to all sins--and personally, I liked it better when I thought it did--then it blows our whole judicial system right out of the water.
  I'll have to spend some more time researching this.
  Thanks for the insight.
  - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-03-15 21:28:24
    If you want (and it will take some time due to my rather slow typing speed) I can post an excerpt from France's commentary (NICNT-Matthew). I'm not sure if I fully agree with France's position (that 18:15 refers to any sins, not just personal ones). I just haven't had the time to devote to that particular subject. But the idea is fascinating. And if correct, then, as you said, it does 'blow the whole WT judicial system out of the water.' Certainly, there is a lot about the WT judicial system that needs 'blown out of the water.'
    And again, I wasn't trying to be critical. There is a lot about the WT judicial system that deserves being critical about. But in fairness to the NWT's rendition of Matthew 18:15, I wanted to point out what I know about it. Usually, when I think I've reached a conclusion about something, that's when I find out there is still more to learn. ( href="http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/8-2.htm" >)
    I also find it interesting that you were leaning in the same direction as R. T. France without having consulted his reference. (The NICNT-Matthew commentary is, in my opinion, the gold standard of Matthew commentaries, although I don't fully agree with him on everything.)
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-16 00:40:09
      Let me get back to you on that. I have an idea.
  - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-03-15 22:07:32
    Just as an interesting follow on to this thought, compare the paragraph breaks in the NWT with several of the modern translations on BibleHub (e.g. NIV, NLT, ESV, HCS) The NICNT commentary links Matthew 18:15-17 as the natural flow of thought from verses 10-14. The NWT places verse 10 with verses 8 and 9. But the translations above (as well as the NICNT commentary) place verse 10 either alone or with 12-14 (with verse 11 correctly omitted). It indicates some difference in viewpoint as far as how the translators of the NWT viewed the passage.
    The first sentence in the NICNT commentary under the 18:15-17 pericope reads thusly:
    The thought flows on naturally from vv. 10-14: this is how a disciple is to act when he or she is aware that a fellow disciple is in spiritual danger, through sin. [end quote]
    Also, compare the commentary by W.G. Thompson (here. You'll have to scroll up to page 233 where he discusses the literary similarities and differences between Mathew 18:15 and Luke 17:3.
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-16 09:02:20
      I see you've found out how to embed clickable links. I use the special editing form available to site administrators but, for some reason WordPress doesn't explain, denied to regular contributors.
      However, since others have asked about this, I've learned how to do it in text. I've pasted in an example, but I had to change some key characters for it to show.
      If you replace all square brackets with pointy ones in this line of text:
      [a href="http://discussthetruth.com" title="Discuss the Truth forum." target="_blank"]Click Here[/a] to visit our new forum.
      You'll get this:
      Click Here to visit our new forum.
  - Reply by kev c on 2014-03-16 04:36:25
    Could be true brothers because some manuscripts do not have these words on them as you said .the context is interesting .jesus is providing instruction for his disciples to follow The verses seem to be setting out a procedure for dealing with the importance of forgiveness of sin . The verses are sandwiched beetween the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the unmerciful servant note verse 21 of the introduction .then peter came to jesus and said lord how many times shall i forgive my brother when he sins against me .while not conclusive this may indicate The nature of the sins mentioned at verse 15 because peters response seems to be related to what jesus had said .thanks for your in depth research brothers kev
    - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-03-16 10:03:54
      Good points Kev.

Comment by Bobcat on 2014-03-15 19:51:52
Retry . . .
Matthew 18:15 (See href="http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/18-15.htm">)
Rev 1:10 (See discussion href=”http://meletivivlon.com/2014/03/03/wt-study-worship-jehovah-the-king-of-eternity/#comment-9517">)

Comment by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-15 21:32:18
BN, I am so touched by your story. I can feel how much you love your son and how helpless you feel, and how hard you are trying to help him. May I suggest that if he has been in therapy for years, and he is still suicidal, perhaps it is time to consult with a different provider if that is possible for him? Untill he is placed on the proper medication for his chemical imbalance in the brain, it makes his suicidal thinking harder for him to deal with. And he has to actually take the medication for it to work.
Sometimes the illness itself keeps a person from being completely honest with a therapist. A therapist can't really help if they are not getting the whole story. Sometimes there is just no connection with the therapist.
If he is not able to change therapist, a place to start might be to encourage him to write down all of his thoughts on paper. This is just for him, no on else need read it. He needs to feel safe writing his thoughts down, so he may burn them after he writes them or secure them in such a way that no one else has access to them. Writing things down, forces your brain to puts thoughts into words. Once you can put the thoughts into words on paper, they lose some of their power over you. The thoughts will never be quite as powerful again.
Also if you can locate a peer-to-peer support group, (you may have to take him yourself) NAMI (National Alliance for Mental Illness) is one, he may be able to identify with another person who has been suicidal and knows how that feels and be able to feel some hope. It only takes a spark of hope to begin a long, hard road of recovery.
It might also be helpful if you tell him as often as possible and as sincerely as you can, "name of son) I love you and I accept you just as you are".
I am not a professional of any kind, I am only speaking about some things that actually worked for me.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-16 08:45:13
  Thank you for sharing this, imacountrygirl2. For those of us who have been spared the ravages of mental illness, it is most helpful to gain this understanding so that we might be able to help others that we come across.
- Reply by BN on 2014-04-13 06:03:20
  Thank you so much , and I agree I think it's time for him to change therapist. .Here we live, it's so difficult getting a broader picture when you already godt a dignosis. I think the only thing holding him up now is actually his love for Christ,

Comment by A searcher for truth on 2014-03-16 10:40:37
To Meleti,
So you are are my profiler now? Well Good for you.
I'm done here, I'll leave you all in peace to have your little spiritual clique here as I am obviously not welcome here.
I came here to share some new things that I have learned, but you do not want to hear it.
I came to share it with you all, hoping that you will at least consider what I have to share.
I do not consider myself to be a righteous person and I am certainly not a righteous preacher, just an imperfect man with some information that I would like to share with you all.
By the way this world will very soon be shaken to it's core. No I do not mean by an earthquake, though that could happen to.
But I do believe that the events that will shortly take place will shock the world, and especially those Christians who cannot see past their nose and what is contained in the Bible.
They will expect something to happen in a certain way as they believe it will happen, but there are things going on in this world that are done in secret that most of the people of this world do not know about.
There are things going on out there in our solar system and our local universe that most people can not even conceive and do not know about and probably would faint out of fear if they knew exactly what was out there.
For instance have you heard of the large structure that is reported in some of the main stream media that has just been discovered on the surface of the moon? Apparently it was not there before. No one knows what it is, well almost no one because I do believe that there are certain people on this planet who are in the know and they not telling the general public that is for sure. But this was leaked out. By accident or by design I do not know.
Apparently from what I have gleaned there exists technology here on this earth that is between 100 - 300 years ahead of what most people know about today, and it looks like that it will be unleashed upon this world, unless Christ-Michael and his forces have other plans to combat this before this happens, I do not know, but what I do know is that the people of this world are in great danger and many millions, perhaps billions could potentially die before it is all over.
Hence the "Great Tribulation", the ride of the "fourth horseman", as I understand it.
I use to wonder how the military powers of this earth at the battle of Armageddon could even attempt to fight the "Word" of God and his armies who are following him and now I have some answer to this perplexing puzzle.
I believe that they now have a type of etheric technology (courtesy of the fallen angels - extraterrestrials) that they think they can use against Christ-Michael and his armies if and when they come, but in the book of Revelation if it is not largely distorted, it does predict that Michael and his heavenly (perhaps composite) armies will be the victors and that is my faith and belief that he will be victorious over his enemies and our enemies, those of the spiritually dark ones who would try to control us and use us as nothing more than for slaves and for financial gain.
Finally we will be free of them and "God's Kingdom" will then be free to prosper here on this planet to make it into a better place where the nations will beat the swords into plowshares, and where technology will be released that will be of benefit to us both economically, ecologically and biologically as to our health, longevity and so on.
All these blessings await those who will still be alive at that time.
Those who have died and are judged fit for personality survival will be resurrected to the "dwelling places in heaven" that Jesus has prepared for them.
This is my hope, to be resurrected after I die into one of these Heavenly dwelling places that Jesus spoke of to his disciples, which is of a higher order density than our material 3D dimension density here on this planet.
I do not believe that we will go straight to the Spirit dimension of "Paradise" where God resides, which is of a much higher density or level of existence.
We will have to progress up to that stage, for only holy and perfect beings can enter there.
Anyway I take my leave now.
I have decided that I have outstayed my welcome here.
Good day to you all.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-03-16 11:04:20
  TO ALL:
  Some have expressed their concerns to me privately about comments like this. I have allowed this interchange with "A Searcher for Truth" to go on for some time for the purpose of setting a precedent. One of my duties as one of the site administrators is to maintain the congenial climate of the forum so that all find it a warm and welcoming place for the free and open exchange of Bible research. At times this requires that I do not approve a comment--admittedly, a form of censorship. In that capacity, there is always the danger of acting in a heavy-handed manner which could result in quashing sincere expressions of belief and inhibiting some, perhaps the more timid, from participating. Therefore, I was hoping that by allowing this exchange to continue for some time, the true nature of the dialogue would become manifest and the decision to block further comments from this individual would be readily accepted by our community at large. Several have had their say and I believe we have met the Bible requirement to "reprove before all onlookers".
  Given this precedent, it will not be necessary to allow an extended interchange in the future each time such an individual crashes the gates, as it were.
  Therefore, failing an apology and evident change of attitude, I will be disallowing further comments from this individual.

Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-03-16 11:17:09
Wow... That's all I can say.
In keeping with the theme of Meleti's article , I can't help but feel a sense of anger by this exchange.I don't pretend to know all of ASFT's circumstances. From what he has said he was only disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the GB.If this is indeed true they threw our dear brother out of the congregation and look at what has happened!
I'm sorry how could the GB not have blood on their hands? Is unity of the JW's worth one sheep falling by the wayside ?! Of course I believe in personal accountability ... by why are we throwing our brothers to the wolves to be devoured???
This deeply saddens me on so many levels.....
- Reply by imacountrygirl2 on 2014-03-16 14:48:25
  GWIT, You are very discerning and I share your sadness. I too see bloodguilt on the GBs part for disfellowshipping one who questions the truth of the GB. I have seen so many others who were disfellowshipped or disassociated became deeply angry and bitter, I believe the depth of one's anger is equal to the depth of their pain. Grave damage has been inflicted on so many of our dear brothers and sisters, someone will have to answer to Jehovah for how they have been mistreated and what results became of that treatment....at the hands of "God's Visible Organization on Earth", "God's Mouthpiece", the "Direct Channel" to Jehovah God himself.
  By the same token, ASFT has chosen to ignore the sincere, kind comments expressed by some, myself included, who were trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and not being judgemental and even support him in his search for truth.
  Perhaps if ASFT would refrain from commenting for awhile, and just listen to the underlying message of love that was proclaimed by Jesus. The whole of the Law and the Prophets is summed up in these two Commandments."
  ASFT, if you can let go of everything else for a while, and concentrate on practicing those two greatest commandments Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (NT)
  Perhaps it is even necessary for us to do that in order to accept the truth that we are searching for.
  "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."Luke 15:3-7 (ESV)
  ASFT, you are precious to Jesus. He doesn't want to lose you and neither do we. It seems to be your attitude that might be the root of conflicts. It is not my intent to hurt you or to criticize you. I certainly have many issues myself that I am doing my best to work on. I hope that if someone does see a quality in me that needs refining, please let me know. That would be an act of love to tenderly reproove me and I would most humbly try taking an honest look at myself. Our eyes look outward so it's easy to see others faults. We can only see ourselves in a mirror but we quickly forget what we look like once we turn away from the mirror.
  You may indeed have information we are not aware of, but the way you are going about trying to help us is not working for you here.

Comment by Heart and Mind on 2014-03-17 12:33:52
Hello everyone,
Ive just finished reading this fine article, and now feel very emotional.
I have so much I too want to express and share, regarding experiences and feelings relating to my own particular experience associating with JW's for almost 40 years; but now is not the time.
Yes, I was baptised, and no Im not disfellowshipped or disassociated (although yes, I have in the past been reproved and disfellowshipped and sat before numerous judicial committees ) I have not been regular at meetings for probably longer than 12 years. I have tried though, to keep my loyalty to Jehovah by resisting all the things I had thought were 'worldly'; thinking I was pleasing Jehovah. From childhood, before my family was contacted by JW's, I had developed a love for the Scriptures. I read the Bible often. My love for God and His Son Jesus remains. Over the last few days I have been praying for insight and wisdom to help me discern Truth. My journey to this point, has been off and on over the last 5-6 years. Disquieting thoughts continued to unsettle me, hence a more recent return to my sincere search for clarity.
Today, I sense freedom. Today a weight has been lifted. Today the eyes of my heart and mind began to see.
I look forward to continuing this journey and hopefully getting to know more of you on this forum, who's hearts excite in the knowledge that truly sets free.
Warmest regards,
Heart and Mind
- Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-03-17 16:13:32
  Hear and Mind.
  Hello and so pleased you found this site. It took me ages to find the courage to post anything as I felt thrown about and hurt. You will not be hurt here as people are really trying to understand our relationship with God and Jesus Christ in this place. No one thinks they are better than the other, some are really angry, some are sad and disillusioned, but everyone is clinging to a faith the God's inspired word and His fully approved Son Jesus Christ. You are actually quite safe here.
  Take care.
- Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2014-03-17 17:38:00
  Heart&Mind
  I just wanted to give you a warm welcome to the community. It's really uplifting to hear your heartfelt thoughts. Many of us can relate to exactly what you are describing.
  Please feel free to join us over at the discussion board when you feel up to it. See the article here for how to do that. Although I do hope that we will just make the whole thing public perhaps by the end of the week.
  Your brother,
  Apollos

Comment by Heart and Mind on 2014-03-18 17:33:51
Thank you both, for the welcome :)

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Comment by AnnaNana on 2022-11-03 17:20:31
Amen! I love this article. "Disfellowshipping" is distasteful and unscriptural. Who can imagine the Christ ignoring a weak person? To the contrary, we are encouraged to help the weak. As mentioned in the article, let each individual make his own decision who they will "fellowship" with. If we know someone is abusing an illegal substance or partaking of some bad practice, we should have enough sense to steer clear of them.

The current disfellowshipping arrangement also allows wolves to twist rules in order to remove anyone faithful who seems to threaten their authority, when if fact, oftentimes the elders in authority are just paranoid. (Jesus did not threaten anyone's authority either - he plainly stated his kingdom was not of this world. But the Sanhedrin wolves twisted the rules to illegally "judge" Jesus as "guilty" anyway. Go figure. Same thing happens today sometimes in the congregation.)

I have seen "appointed elders" who should be "disfellowshipped" according to the current "rules" still lording it over the flock; and I have also seen faithful integrity keepers "disfellowshipped" for adhering to Bible principles. (Ecclesiastes 7:15) "During my futile life I have seen everything—from the righteous one who perishes in his righteousness to the wicked one who lives long despite his badness."

Those given authority will be held accountable for how the exercise their authority.

Just as Jesus refined the polygamy thing and the circumcision thing, he will refine this disfellowshipping too. Until then, sometimes we do stand alone in a congregation or a circuit or our family when we uphold the pure teachings of the Christ. "We must obey God as ruler rather than men," and we do receive our reward for being persecuted for righteousness sake. Thank you for comforting others with the comfort with which you have been comforted by God!

The verses in Revelation on what happens to Jezebel are encouraging in this regard. "Jezebel" does not mean "a headstrong woman or group of women trying to start a feminist movement in a congregation." Jezebel was not a feminist. Jezebel worked along with her husband, with his permission and backing. She did not usurp the kingship. Jezebel was a wicked woman; she bore false witness in order to kill someone. She was a murderer.

In the Christian congregation today, there are some (men or women) who bear false witness in order to "kill" (disfellowship or slander) others. Just as Jezebel sent letters to the elders in Naboth's city, and the elders willingly followed through on bearing false witness and then misusing the arrangement in order to make it look like Naboth deserved to die, so today the same thing happens in many of the congregations. The elders call Bethel. Bethel gives permission and instruction on how to remove a perceived "apostate" (who in all actuality is the one actually adhering to the Bible), the CO may be involved, then perhaps an appeal committee. The integrity keeper is framed and labeled an "apostate" for sticking to the Bible principles. The congregation follows through by treating the integrity keeper as if they are "dead". It's horrible. The elders and accomplices become Jezebel and her children.

Jesus' words to the congregations in Revelation show us what is happening today in the modern-day organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Mathematically speaking, if there were really literally one out of seven congregations where such an influence takes place, is it any wonder there is so much corruption? Gangrene and lawlessness have spread. Jesus sees it. He is going to throw "Jezebel" and her children (those who learn from her and act like her) out of the congregation. All the "Naboths" will be "resurrected" to the congregation. Jesus said "keep holding fast what you have until I come." The leaven has spread to the whole lump. Only Jesus can remove it.

The words to the angels of the congregations show that the angels are involved in this work. "The seven stars mean angels" not elders. The elders are part of the problem. (Not all the elders, just the ones who are like Jezebel or Balaam or sectarianists.) The angels know where they are. We can't read hearts. Jesus is telling us the angels will take care of it at the proper time. We can rest in that regard, stand still and see the salvation of Jehovah in our behalf.

The tribulation is about to begin. Jesus has marked those who are sighing and groaning over what is going on in Jehovah's organization. Who are really "Jehovah's Witnesses"? Jehovah is the judge. There are many outside the organization who Witness about Jehovah. There are many inside the organization who are really wolves or shepherds who hide what they are (as mentioned in Jude). "The angels will remove those things (teachings) causing a stumbling, and those people doing wickedness." The weeds are about to be removed. The wheat will be gathered. "Those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews but are not...will know I have loved you." Two out of seven congregations in Revelation are said to be like the synagogue of Satan. No wonder there is so much trouble in the organization today!

Jesus foretold it, so we would not worry, so we would know the time is near. "Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near." "He also tells me: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near. Let the one who is unrighteous continue in unrighteousness, and let the filthy one continue in his filth; but let the righteous one continue in righteousness, and let the holy one continue in holiness. “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work."

You have continued to work, despite your tribulations. "I know your tribulation and poverty—but you are rich—and the blasphemy by those who call themselves Jews and really are not, but they are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Many have been thrown into a figurative "prison" by means of the "disfellowshipping" arrangement, by those who call themselves Witnesses of Jehovah but whose actions do not match what Jehovah approves of, instead those lawless men are serving the interests of Satan. Let us keep being faithful throughout this tribulation. The Lord is near. Soon we all will be free. And look, we already are, really, the truth has set us free. The word of God is not bound. It's just a matter of time until these other "prison bonds" are removed.

There are seven congregations mentioned in Revelation. Some have idolatry issues, false teachings, Jezebel issues, etc. Jesus is going to clean house. But there are many faithful ones still there in the organization. We will have to comfort them. Jehovah has given us the privilege to know these things before they happen. Our brothers will need us in that hour, even though they abandoned us when we needed them. Jehovah did not abandon us. Just like Jesus or Paul or Joseph of old, we will provide for our brothers when the tables are turned. That's what God's children do. (1 John) And we are God's children, provided we keep imitating our beloved Father.

"Peace be to all Christian brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!"

Be Modest in Walking with God

Applying Micah 6:8

Avoiding Bias

Disfellowshipping and Christian Modesty

Categories of Sin

Disfellowshipping—Handling Sins of a Criminal Nature

Disfellowshipping—Handling Sins of a Personal Nature

Disfellowshipping—Handling More Serious Personal Sins

Disfellowshipping—Handling General Sins

What Qualifies As a Disfellowshipping Offense?

How Are We to Treat the Sinner?

Who Determines If a Sinner Is to Be Disfellowshipped?

What Determines If the Sinner Is to Be Reinstated?

General Sins – a Summary

Disfellowshipping—Handling the Sin of Apostasy

Disfellowshipping—Going Beyond the Things Written

The Informant Process

When Manmade Rules Count More Than Scriptural Principles

Determining Repentance

The Requirement to Confess Our Sins to Men

Causing Others to Sin

A Bigger Sin

Involving Us in Their Sin

In Summation

What Will You Do?

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