All religious people—Christian or not—think they understand worship. As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we think we have a handle on it. We know what it means and how it is to be performed and to whom it is to be directed.
That being the case, let us try a little exercise.
You may not be a Greek Scholar but with what you’ve learned thus far how would you translate “worship” into Greek in each of the following sentences?
- Jehovah’s Witnesses practice true worship.
- We worship Jehovah God by attending meetings and going out in field service.
- It should be evident to all that we worship Jehovah.
- We must worship only Jehovah God.
- The nations worship the Devil.
- It would be wrong to worship Jesus Christ.
There is no single word in Greek for worship; no one-to-one equivalency with the English word. Instead, we have four words to choose from—thréskeia, sebó, latreuó, proskuneó—each with its own nuances of meaning.
Do you see the problem? Going from many to one is not so much of a challenge. If one word represents many, the nuances of meaning all get dumped into the same melting pot. However, going in the opposite direction is quite another thing. Now we are required to resolve ambiguities and decide the precise meaning embodied in the context.
Fair enough. We are not the sort to shrink from a challenge, and besides, we’re pretty sure we know what worship means, right? After all, we’re hanging our prospects for eternal life on our belief that we are worshiping God the way he wants to be worshiped. So let’s give this a go.
I’d say we use thréskeia for (1) and (2). Both refer to a practice of worship that involves following procedures that are part of a particular religious belief. I would suggest sebó for (3) because it is not talking about acts of worship, but a demeanor that is on display for the world to see. The next one (4) presents a problem. Without the context we cannot be sure. Depending on that, sebó might be a good candidate, but I’m leaning more toward proskuneó with a dash of latreuó thrown in for good measure. Ah, but that’s not fair. We are looking for single word equivalency, so I’ll pick proskuneó because that was the word Jesus used when he was telling the Devil that only Jehovah should be worshiped. (Mt 4:8-10) Ditto for (5) because that’s the word used in the Bible at Revelation 14:3.
The last item (6) is a problem. We’ve just used proskuneó in (4) and (5) with strong Bible support. If we were to replace “Jesus Christ” with “Satan” in (6), we’d have no compunction with using proskuneó yet again. It fits. The problem is that proskuneó is used in Hebrews 1:6 where the angels are shown rendering it to Jesus. So we can’t really say that proskuneó cannot be rendered to Jesus.
How could Jesus tell the Devil that proskuneó should only be rendered to God, when the Bible shows not only that it is rendered to him by the angels, but that even while a man, he accepted proskuneó from others?
“And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped [proskuneó] him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.” (Mt 8:2 KJV)
“While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped [proskuneó] him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. “(Mt 9:18 KJV)
“Then those who were in the boat worshiped [proskuneó] him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (Mt 14:33 NET)
“Then came she and worshipped [proskuneó] him, saying, Lord, help me.” (Mt 15:25 KJV)
“But Jesus met them, saying, “Greetings!” They came to him, held on to his feet and worshiped [proskuneó] him.” (Mt 28:9 NET)
Now those of you who have a programmed concept of what worship is (just like I did before I started this research) are likely to be objecting to my selective use of the NET and KJV quotes. You might point out that many translations render proskuneó in at least some of these verses as “bow down”. The NWT uses “do obeisance” throughout. In so doing, it is making a value judgment. It is saying that when proskuneó is used with reference to Jehovah, the nations, an idol, or Satan, it should be rendered as absolute, i.e., as worship. However, when referring to Jesus, it is relative. In other words, it is okay to render proskuneó to Jesus, but in a relative sense only. It doesn’t amount to worship. Whereas rendering it to anyone else—be it Satan or God—is worship.
The problem with this technique is that there is no real difference between “doing obeisance” and “worshiping”. We imagine there is because it suits us, but there really isn’t a substantive difference. To explain that, let us begin by getting a picture in our mind of proskuneó. It means literally “to kiss towards” and is defined as “to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior”…”to fall down/prostrate oneself to adore on one’s knees”. (HELPS Word-studies)
We’ve all see Muslims kneeling and then bending forward to touch the ground with their forehead. We’ve seen Catholics prostrate themselves on the ground, kissing the feet of an image of Jesus. We’ve even seen men, kneeling before other men, kissing a ring or hand of a high church official. All these are acts of proskuneó. A simple act of bowing before another, like the Japanese do in greeting, is not an act of proskuneó.
Twice, while receiving powerful visions, John was overcome with a sense of awe and performed proskuneó. To aid in our understanding, rather than provide the Greek word or the English interpretation—worship, do obeisance, whatever—I am going to express the physical action conveyed by proskuneó and leave the interpretation to the reader.
“At that I fell down before his feet to [prostrate myself before] him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. [Prostrate yourself before] God! For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy.”” (Re 19:10)
“Well I, John, was the one hearing and seeing these things. When I heard and saw them, I [bowed down to kiss] at the feet of the angel who had been showing me these things. 9 But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers the prophets and of those observing the words of this scroll. [Bow and kiss] God.”” (Re 22:8, 9)
The NWT renders all four occurrences of proskuneó in these verses as “worship”. We can agree that it is wrong to prostrate ourselves and kiss the feet of an angel. Why? Because this is an act of submission. We would be submitting to the will of the angel. Essentially, we would be saying, “Command me and I will obey, oh Lord”.
This is obviously wrong, because angels admittedly are ‘fellow slaves of us and our brothers’. Slaves don’t obey other slaves. Slaves all obey the master.
If we are not to prostrate ourselves before angels, how much more so men? That is the essence of what occurred when Peter first met Cornelius.
“As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet, and [prostrated himself before] him. But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I too am just a man.” – Acts 10:25 NWT (Click this link to see how most common translations render this verse.)
It is worthy of note that the NWT does not use “worship” to translate proskuneó here. Instead it uses “did obeisance”. The parallels are undeniable. The same word is used in both. The exact same physical act was performed in each case. And in each case, the doer was admonished not to perform the act anymore. If John’s act was one of worship, can we rightfully claim that Cornelius’ was less so? If it is wrong to proskuneó/prostrate-oneself-before/worship an angel and it is wrong to proskuneó/prostrate-oneself-before/do-obeisance to a man, there is no fundamental difference between the English translation that renders proskuneó as “to worship” vs. the one that renders it as “to do obeisance”. We are trying to create a difference to support a preconceived theology; a theology that prohibits us from prostrating ourselves in complete submission to Jesus.
Indeed, the very act that the angel rebuked John for, and Peter admonished Cornelius for, both these men performed, along with the rest of the apostles, after they witnessed Jesus calming the storm. The very same act!
They had seen the Lord cure many individuals of all sorts of diseases but never before did his miracles strike them with fear. One has to get the mindset of these men to understand their reaction. Fishermen were always at the mercy of the weather. We’ve all sensed a feeling of awe and even outright fear before the power of a storm. To this day we call them acts of God and they are the greatest manifestation of the power of nature—the power of God—that most of us ever come across in our lives. Imagine being in a tiny fishing boat when a sudden storms comes up, tossing you about like drift wood and putting your very life in peril. How small, how impotent, one must feel before such overwhelming power.
So to have a mere man stand up and tell the storm to go away, and then see the storm obey…well, is it any wonder that “they felt an unusual fear, and they said to one another: ‘Who really is this? Even the wind and the sea obey him’, and that “those in the boat [prostrated themselves before] him, saying: ‘You really are God’s Son.’” (Mr 4:41; Mt 14:33 NWT)
Why did Jesus not set the example and rebuke them for prostrating themselves before him?
Worshiping God the Way He Approves
We are all so cocksure of ourselves; sure that we know just how Jehovah wants to be worshiped. Every religion does it differently and every religion thinks the rest have got it wrong. Growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, I took considerable pride in knowing that Christendom had it wrong by claiming that Jesus was God. The Trinity was a doctrine that dishonored God by making Jesus and the holy spirit part of a triune Godhead. However, in denouncing the Trinity as false, have we run so far to the opposite side of the playing field that we are in danger of missing out on some fundamental truth?
Do not misunderstand me. I hold that the Trinity is a false doctrine. Jesus is not God the Son, but the Son of God. His God is Jehovah. (John 20:17) However, when it comes to worshiping God, I do not want to fall into the trap of doing it how I think it should be done. I want to do it as my heavenly Father wants me to do it.
I’ve come to realize that generally speaking our understanding of worship is as clearly defined as a cloud. Did you write down your definition as the start of this series of articles? If so, have a look at it. Now compare it with this definition which, I’m confident, most Jehovah’s Witnesses would agree with.
Worship: Something we should only give to Jehovah. Worship means exclusive devotion. It means obeying God over everyone else. It means submitting to God in every way. It means loving God above all others. We perform our worship by going to meetings, preaching the good news, helping others in their time of need, studying God’s word and praying to Jehovah.
Now let’s consider what the Insight book gives as a definition:
it-2 p. 1210 Worship
The rendering of reverent honor or homage. True worship of the Creator embraces every aspect of an individual’s life….Adam was able to serve or worship his Creator by faithfully doing the will of his heavenly Father….The primary emphasis has always been on exercising faith—doing the will of Jehovah God—and not on ceremony or ritual….Serving or worshiping Jehovah required obedience to all of his commands, doing his will as a person exclusively devoted to him.
In both these definitions, true worship involves only Jehovah and no one else. Period!
I think we can all agree that worshipping God means being obedient to all his commands. Well, here’s one of them:
“While he was yet speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and, look! a voice out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.”” (Mt 17:5)
And here’s what happens if we don’t obey.
“Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’” (Ac 3:23)
Now is our obedience to Jesus relative? Do we say, “I’ll obey you Lord, but only as long as you don’t ask me to do something that Jehovah disapproves of”? We might as well say that we'll obey Jehovah unless he lies to us. We are stipulating conditions which can never occur. Worse, suggesting even the possibility is blasphemy. Jesus will never fail us and he will never be disloyal to his Father. The Father's will is and always will be the will of our Lord.
Given this, if Jesus were to return tomorrow, would you prostrate yourself on the ground before him? Would you say, “Whatever you want me to do Lord, I will do. If you ask me to surrender my life, it is yours for the taking”? Or would you say, “Sorry Jesus, you’ve done a lot for me, but I only bow down before Jehovah”?
As it applies to Jehovah, proskuneó, means complete submission, unconditional obedience. Now ask yourself, since Jehovah has granted Jesus “all authority in heaven and earth”, what is left for God? How can we submit to Jehovah more than to Jesus? How can we obey God more than we obey Jesus? How can we prostrate ourselves before God more than before Jesus? The fact is we worship God, proskuneó, by worshipping Jesus. We are not allowed to do an end run around Jesus to get to God. We approach God through him. If you still believe that we do not worship Jesus, but only Jehovah, please explain precisely how we go about that? How do we differentiate the one from the other?
Kiss the Son
This is where, I’m afraid, we as Jehovah’s Witnesses have missed the mark. By marginalizing Jesus, we forget that the one who appointed him is God and that by not recognizing his true and complete role, we are rejecting Jehovah’s arrangement.
I do not say this lightly. Consider, by way of an example, what we have done with Ps. 2:12 and how this serves to mislead us.
“Honor the son, or God will become indignant
And you will perish from the way,
For His anger flares up quickly.
Happy are all those taking refuge in Him.”
(Ps 2:12 NWT 2013 Edition)
Children should honor parents. Congregation members should honor the older men taking the lead. In fact, we are to honor men of all sorts. (Eph 6:1,2; 1Ti 5:17, 18; 1Pe 2:17) Honoring the son is not the message of this verse. Our previous rendering was on the mark:
Kiss the son, that He may not become incensed
And YOU may not perish [from] the way,
For his anger flares up easily.
Happy are all those taking refuge in him.
(Ps 2:12 NWT Reference Bible)
The Hebrew word nashaq (נָשַׁק) means “kiss” not “honor”. Inserting “honor” where the Hebrew reads “kiss” greatly changes the meaning. This isn’t a kiss of greeting and it isn’t a kiss to honor someone. This is in line with the idea of proskuneó. It is a “kiss toward”, an act of submission that recognizes the supreme position of the Son as our divinely appointed King. Either we bow down and kiss him or we die.
In the earlier version we hinted that the one becoming incensed was God by capitalizing the pronoun. In the latest translation, we’ve removed all doubt by inserting God—a word that does not appear in the text. The fact is, there is no way to be certain. The ambiguity of whether the “he” refers to God or the Son is part of the original text.
Why would Jehovah allow the ambiguity to exist?
A similar ambiguity exists in Revelation 22:1-5. In an excellent comment, Alex Rover brings the point out that it is impossible to know who is being referred to in the passage: “The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will [render sacred service to] (latreusousin) him.”
I would submit that the apparent ambiguity of Ps 2:12 and Re 22:1-5 isn’t ambiguity at all, but a revelation of the unique position of the Son. Having passed the test, having learned obedience, having been made perfect, he is—from our point of view as his servants—indistinguishable from Jehovah as regards his authority and right to command.
While on earth, Jesus showed perfect devotion, reverence and adoration (sebó) for the Father. The aspect of sebó found in our woefully overworked English word “worship” is something we achieve by imitating the son. We learn to worship (sebó) the Father at the feet of the son. However, when it comes to our obedience and complete submission, the Father has set up the Son for us to recognize. It is to the Son that we render proskuneó. It is through him that we render proskuneó to Jehovah. If we try to render proskuneó to Jehovah by circumventing his Son—by failing to ‘kiss the Son’—it doesn’t really matter whether it is the Father or the Son who becomes incensed. Either way, we will perish.
Jesus does nothing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. (John 8:28) The idea that our bowing to him is somehow relative—a lower degree of submissiveness, a relative level of obedience—is nonsense. It is illogical and contrary to everything the Scriptures tell us about Jesus’ appointment as King and the fact that he and the Father are one. (John 10:30)
Worship Before Sin
Jehovah did not appoint Jesus to this role because Jesus is God in some sense. Nor is Jesus equal to God. He rejected the idea that equality with God was anything that should be snatched at. Jehovah appointed Jesus to this position so that he could bring us back to God; so that he could effect a reconciliation with the Father.
Ask yourself this: What was worship of God like before there was sin? There was no ritual involved. No religious practice. Adam didn’t go to a special place once every seven days and bow down, chanting words of praise.
As beloved children, they should have loved, revered and adored their Father all the time. They should have been devoted to him. They should have willingly obeyed him. When asked to serve in some capacity, like being fruitful, becoming many, and holding the earthly creation in subjection, they should have happily taken up that service. We’ve just encompassed all that the Greek Scriptures teach us about worshiping our God. Worship, true worship in a world free from sin, is simply a way of life.
Our first parents failed miserably at their worship. However, Jehovah lovingly provided a means to reconcile his lost children to himself. That means is Jesus and we cannot get back to the Garden without him. We cannot go around him. We must go through him.
Adam walked with God and talked with God. That was what worship meant and what it will one day mean again.
God has subjected all things under the feet of Jesus. That would include you and me. Jehovah has subjected me to Jesus. But to what end?
“But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.” (1Co 15:28)
We talk to God in prayer, but he does not talk to us as he did with Adam. But if we humbly submit to the Son, if we “kiss the Son”, then one day, true worship in the fullest sense of the word will be restored and our Father will again be “all things to everyone.”
May that day come soon!
Archived Comments
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Comment by keeponseeking on 2015-02-25 22:28:02
"Jesus is not God the Son, but the Son of God. His God is Jehovah. (John 20:17)"
Both of those statements are affirmed in the doctrine of the Trinity.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-25 23:08:26
Which two of these three statements are you referring to?
Reply by keeponseeking on 2015-02-26 15:23:17
Jesus is the Son of God. His God is Jehovah. (John 20:17)
Although, I would change the wording in the second statement to "His God is the Father." Never in Scripture do we see the names "Jehovah and Jesus" placed together.
Jesus was "born under the Law" (Galatians 4:4). In order to follow the Law fully, Jesus needed to worship God. That God is the Father.
Comment by donotforgetus on 2015-02-25 23:35:45
Meleti, in Jesus' day it was not wrong to "proskuneó/prostrate-oneself-before/worship" a human king.
Matthew 18:23-26 "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped (proskuneó) him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all."
Matthew 2:2 "Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship ((proskuneó) him."
Kings received proskuneó, Jesus himself applied it so. Can we then really say that EVERY use of proskuneo with regard to Jesus was actually worship as we understand it today or was it at times the "worship" (proskuneo) given to kings in Jesus day? Perhaps at times that is what it was.
Jesus was proclaimed a king at the time of his birth and the men who came bearing him gifts "worshiped" him as a king but never did Jesus instruct his disciples to worship him as they worshiped God. Paul never says "worship Jesus". The angel in Revelation does NOT say to John "worship Jesus" but rather "worship God". We worship God. Jesus worshiped God. The Apostles worshiped God. There is no "worship Jesus" in the NT.
Jesus never connected everlasting life with the act of worshiping him as God.
With regard to Psalm 2 the NWT finds support in the Septuagint. The word "Lord" as used in the context of Psalm 2 in the Septuagint is definitely referring to God in verse 12 and not the Son or the Lord's anointed.
The Septuagint
Psalm 2:2 "The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers gathered themselves together, against the Lord, and against his Christ;"
Psalm 2:7 "declaring the ordinance of the Lord: the Lord said to me, Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten thee."
Psalm 2:11 "Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice in him with trembling."
Psalm 2:12 "Accept correction, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and ye should perish from the righteous way: whensoever his wrath shall be suddenly kindled, blessed are all they that trust in him."
The NASB
The "He" in the NASB verse 12 is also supported by the Septuagint's "Lord" in verse 12.
Psalm 2:11 "Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling."
Psalm 2:12 "Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!"
The word "He" in the NASB is definitely referring to God.
I leave it there for now.
Respectfully,
LauraReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-26 08:30:53
Hi Laura,
I think the difference between our two points of view is that you believe the modern meaning of the English word "worship" has some one-to-one equivalent in Greek. A case can be made that the archaic English word, "worship", was closer in meaning to the Greek, but the modern one is not. To demonstrate this, please restate this paragraph without using the word "worship". Instead assume I have no idea what the word "worship" means and you need to explain it by filling in the blanks using another word or phrase. You've seen that Greek uses four words where we use the one, so choose the meaning of one of those words that conveys the idea behind your sentence.
Jesus was proclaimed a king at the time of his birth and the men who came bearing him gifts _____________ him as a king but never did Jesus instruct his disciples to _____________ him as they _____________ God. Paul never says “_____________ Jesus”. The angel in Revelation does NOT say to John “_____________ Jesus” but rather “_____________ God”. We _____________ God. Jesus _____________ God. The Apostles _____________ God. There is no “_____________ Jesus” in the NT.Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-26 09:58:18
Meleti, I posted below without seeing your response just above. I do not understand the purpose of the exercise you propose. My post was directed toward the word proskuneó as used in your article.
I wrote, "Kings received proskuneó, Jesus himself applied it so. Can we then really say that EVERY use of proskuneo with regard to Jesus was actually worship as we understand it today or was it at times the “worship” (proskuneo) given to kings in Jesus day?"
This was the thrust of my post.
Respectfully,
LauraReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-26 10:36:52
I understand your point about proskuneó, but do you understand mine about worship? You say "worship as we understand it today". There are two problems with that statement.
1) You have not yet defined worship for me. You seem to think that you and I understand the word in the same way. Therefore it doesn't need to be defined. But it does. There are four words in Greek. Let us settle on just one, proskuneó, as a starting point. How would you perform proskuneó to Jesus and how would it differ from the proskuneó you perform to Jehovah?
2) There is a separate but equally significant problem with your statement. It is really of no importance how we understand worship today. Every religion understands it differently. All that matters is how Jesus and his apostles and the other Bible writers understood the concept. That was the purpose of my proposed fill-in-the-blanks exercise; to demonstrate that the way we understand worship today is so vague and ill-defined that when asked to actually express it in other words in a series of sentences, we cannot do so. Yet, we are absolutely sure we understand it. So much so that we are willing to bet our lives that we have it right.
I say this with respect, because only a few months ago, I was as sure of what worship meant as you are.
Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-26 12:46:23
Meleti, today people do not view bowing down to a superior official or a king as godly worship. When most people today say they worship they are referring to their God whatever god they may have they worship that god. When they bow to that god they are worshiping him. But if they bow to a superior they do not in most cultures view that as worshiping their superior.
The problem is not how we define worship but how Bible translators fail to be consistent when translating words such as proskuneó. The angels proskuneó Jesus, Jesus' disciples will receive proskuneó. Many translations do not make it obvious to the reader that the same Greek word is used in both instances. They should. Otherwise Christians are kept as little children always needing to go their human fathers for succor.
proskuneō
Thayer Definition:
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
3a1) to the Jewish high priests
3a2) to God
3a3) to Christ
3a4) to heavenly beings
3a5) to demons
If we were to translate proskuneō as "worship" in every case above then the Jewish high priests are worshiped. "Worship" in our English language today does not in practice take on all the applications and uses that proskuneō had in the first century. Thus to say that Jesus can be "worshiped" by the angels, a king can be "worshiped" by his servant, and Christ's disciples can be "worshiped" by other men would sound confusing because our word "worship" is limited in scope compared to proskuneō.
Most translators knowing that would be confusing for their modern readers distill the word proskuneō into infant formula by parsing out the various uses of the word according to what in THEIR view and opinion is the best way to express the meaning in every instance.
As I said in a previous post the KJV ironically helps to open the door to what proskuneō actually meant in the 1st century by being more consistent in translating it as "worship". The reader then has a chance to take note that the word translated as "worship" in the NT does not mean what they think it means. (Princess Bride reference intentional. :))
Whereas, the reader of the NASB is left believing that the angels "worship" Jesus and other men will "bow down" to Jesus' disciples. It is natural for the NASB reader to assume that two different words were used. One for "worship" the other for "bowing down" when the reality is the same word was translated by the NASB translators as they saw fit. To say the angels "bow down" to Jesus does not fit as neatly into the Trinitarian view as the word "worship". To say the angels "worship" Jesus does not fit into the view of those who do not believe in the Trinity.
Surely it can be said that it does not belong to translators to direct our steps. We must allow God and Christ to do so by carefully allowing the Bible to speak for itself.
With respect,
LauraReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-26 13:56:58
I appreciate your efforts to clarify this issue, Laura, but alas, the key is your definition of worship which you still have failed to give me. So let me try to provide a definition and you tell me if you agree with it.
When the angel told John to "worship [proskuneó] God", he was referring to the symbolic meaning of proskuneó which represents unconditional submission to God, unconditional obedience to God. While the various words in Greek translated worship have different meanings, the one in dispute is proskuneó. As you've pointed out, proskuneó can be used for a subject before a human king, but as Jehovah's Witnesses, we would consider that bowing before a king would be a question of honor or homage, but never of absolute submission and unconditional obedience. So we would not say that we worship a human king, even if we bowed before him to give him the honor the Bible requires at Romans 13:7.
So in summary proskuneó before a human ruler is not worship because our submission to his authority and our obedience to his commands is conditional based on the principle of Acts 5:29.
However, proskuneó before God is worship because it means our total submission to his authority and our unconditional obedience to his commands.
Would you agree with this definition?
Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-26 15:37:45
Meleti, I answered your question in your What is Worship thread.
You asked for my definition of worship, I wrote:
"Meleti, I believe the best “definition”, if you will, of the word “worship” is the definition Jesus himself lived. It is much more than a word, or bowing down, it is an EXISTENCE.
He continually glorified his Father because he loved him completely.
He gave credit to his Father for everything he said and did.
He was obedient to his Father in ALL things even at the most difficult moment when he said to his Father, Father let your will be done and not mine.
He stood firm against those Jews who hypocritically claimed to love his Father.
Jesus LIVED his worship. It was much more than bowing down it was LOVE.
It was a causal love. A love which causes an individual to give everything to the object of their love. No matter the cost, no matter the wait, no matter what it takes, everything will be given and in turn everything will be received. Because the originator of such love is Jehovah God himself.
This is what worship means.
With respect,
Laura"
I do not see how the Jehovah's Witness view of worship vs.honor has anything to do with the subject of how proskuneó is used in the Bible. What the Witness religion, or any religion, teaches matters little. What matters is what Jesus taught and what the Bible reveals. I do not form a religious belief based on whether or not the religion I associate with teaches it. Not in the least. Jesus was a Jew and went to Synagogue but that does not mean he agreed with everything said and done there.
I am a Christian in association with Jehovah's Witnesses not a blind follower of the Governing Body.
The question is how was proskuneó used in the NT not how the Witnesses use it. Homage is for some the best translation of the word others prefer something else. I prefer examining for myself how the first century Christians used it and make a judgement which is supported by the WHOLE of Christ's teachings. Supported by the full flavor of his testimony.
With respect,
LauraReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-26 17:10:14
Hi Laura,
I do remember your definition. But thank you for bringing it back to my attention. At first, I thought that it didn't fit with our discussion about proskuneó worship, because it seems to fit more with sebó worship. While this is the case for the most part, I saw after rereading it for a third time that you have also encompassed proskuneó within it. The key phrases are "He was obedient to his Father in ALL things even at the most difficult moment when he said to his Father, Father let your will be done and not mine." and "A love which causes an individual to give everything to the object of their love. No matter the cost."
So we are in agreement that proskuneó refers to the unconditional submission to God's will which results in unconditional obedience to his commands.
Therefore, we may render proskuneó to a human king, but since it is never unconditional when humans are involved, it does not rise to the level of worship. We can only call proskuneó "worship" when we are willing to submit unconditionally and obey unconditionally. The nations worship [proskuneó] Satan because they submit to him fully, even to the death and because of their worship of Satan, they even wage war against God.
Now if Jehovah told you to sacrifice your child, you would do it? It may seem wrong to you, but true worship means unconditional obedience to God. In effect, we completely surrender our will to the Father, just as you pointed out Jesus did. Jehovah asked Abraham to sacrifice his son. Abraham proved his worship was true by submitting to God's will and obeying without objection.
Now if Jesus were to ask you to lay down your life for him, or for one of your brothers, or to do anything else, even something as apparently bizarre and inexplicable as what Jehovah asked of Abraham, would you obey? Or are there conditions to your obedience to our King and Lord, Jesus Christ?
Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-26 18:04:07
Very interesting question Meleti. You asked:
"Now if Jesus were to ask you to lay down your life for him, or for one of your brothers, or to do anything else, even something as apparently bizarre and inexplicable as what Jehovah asked of Abraham, would you obey? Or are there conditions to your obedience to our King and Lord, Jesus Christ?"
Yes, I would die for God's Son.
Yes, I would die for my brother.
No, I would not kill my son even if "Jesus" asked me to.
Why? Because there is absolutely NOTHING in Christ's teachings that would even hint at such a request as to ask a mother or father to kill their own child. Nothing. Thus if one claiming to be Jesus should ever ask such a thing he would be proving himself to be not Jesus but satan and I do not obey satan.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-26 23:19:49
Laura, you sign off each comment with the words "with respect". I have tried repeatedly and respectfully in this exchange to get a simple direct answer to a straightforward question. I have yet to get it. Now it may be that you feel a direct answer would weaken your argument. I can understand that position. But I ask you to show me the respect you speak of and give me an answer to this question: When Christ returns, will you give him your unconditional obedience?
Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-27 13:25:55
Meleti, perhaps you do not see it but your reply just above sounds very much like a father to a child. I reply as I reply. If that is not good enough then so be it. No, I'm not concerned that a reply will "weaken" my so called argument. Why are you so insistent that I reply as you would have me reply even to giving me the wording of the reply?
I already have a Father and a Teacher. I do not answer outside of what they teach. You asked if I would kill my child if Jesus asked me to? What is that? Don't you see how idolatrous that sounds? How very much like the Watchtower which claims that Jehovah is made happy when we kill our children over the blood doctrine?
You are on the verge of idolatry.
"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?"
As for showing respect I have respect for every Christian who seeks God and his Son. What do I mean by respect? I do not look down on the beliefs of other Christians. But it seems that if I do not state my beliefs as you would have me state it or believe what you would have me believe then respect is a one way street here. Again, so be it.
LauraReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-27 23:03:58
Hi Laura,
I was trying to keep things simple by asking a single question in my last comment so as to better understand your position. I realize that perhaps I have been working on an erroneous assumption. If so, I apologize. I assumed that you would give unconditional obedience to any command Jehovah might give you. Therefore, I used the incident when Jehovah commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as the most extreme example I could think of. I used this hypothetically, even though this was a real event from history to determine if you would likewise obey Jesus were a similar command given by him. In other words, the exact same command to kill one's own son would be made, but unlike what happened in real history, I wanted to know if hypothetically you would grant Jesus the same level of obedience that you would grant Jehovah. My assumption was that you would grant that level of obedience to Jehovah were you put in Abraham's place. I was surprised that you seemed to find the prospect impossible and concluded that were you to hear such a command that it could not come from Jesus, but only from Satan. Given that such a command did come to Abraham, not from Satan, but from Jehovah, I'm wondering if my former assumption was correct. So I will await your clarification on this matter. You might also take the opportunity to explain what any of this has to do with idolatry as I do not see the connection.
As to the issue of what I meant by respect, I was referring to the mutual respect we should exhibit to one another. If you were to ask me a simple question--one not intended to trap me but only to elicit information to help you get a better understanding of my position on some subject--and I were to repeatedly avoid answering that question, I would consider that I was failing to show you the respect you deserved.
However, you are under no obligation to answer any question and if you do not wish to do so, please let me know and we can terminate this dialogue.
Your brother,
Meleti
Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-03-12 21:07:49
Meleti,
Family obligations took me away for a short while, I apologize for the delay.
You wrote, " I assumed that you would give unconditional obedience to any command Jehovah might give you"
Tell me brother, if a voice from heaven were to tell you to slaughter your child would you?
Remember, Abraham did not kill his son.
Laura
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-13 08:08:14
Hi Laura,
Good to have you back.
You ask me a new question, one I'm willing to answer. However, I think it only fair to ask you to answer my original question first. In its latest iteration, it is: "When Christ returns, will you give him your unconditional obedience?"
Meleti
Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-26 09:43:52
The word proskuneó translated as "worship" was not always used in the strict sense of worshiping God. Here are two examples where proskuneo is used, the first in Hebrews with regard to Jesus and then by Jesus himself in the Revelation with reference to his disciples.
Hebrews 1:6 "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship (proskuneó) him."
Revelation 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship (proskuneó) before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."
Thus if Hebrews 1:6 is evidence that the angels worshiped Jesus as God perhaps then some could also say that Jesus will cause others to worship his disciples as God as well. Such a ridiculous thought would come from not taking into account the whole of Jesus' teachings but instead zoning in on this or that in order to prove something not found in the body of of Christ's words.
The NT gives us what we need in order to understand how proskuneo was used in the first century. Taking into account ALL its applications and uses in the NT gives clarity to the FIRST CENTURY meaning which is much more important than any personal 21st century views we may have.
With respect,
LauraReply by menrov on 2015-02-27 06:22:58
Dear Laura, I had a similar discussion with my wife.who is a very active JW. She more or less takes the same approach and actually avoids the core question or issue: it is not whether we like a certain scriptural truth, it is what the Father wants us to obey.
Regardless what one believes worship means, it is essential to be consistent. If a word is used to express worship to the Father or Satan (see Matt. 4:9,10) then when that same word is used for Jesus, it should have the same meaning. Regardless whether we like that. It is what the author of the scriptures intended.
I asked my wife the following: if Jesus, when all things have been subjected to him, will subject himself AGAIN to the Father (1 Cor. 10:28), to whom is he subjected now? It cannot be to the Father according to his text?
And therefore, if it means that honoring the Son means to honor the Father, what do we have to do then, whether one likes it or not? He who does not honor the Father, does not honor the Son. (John 5:23, 2 Pet. 1:17).
And yes, it was not Jesus himself who acquired that role and power but it was given to him by the only one who could give it. (Phil. 2:6-11).
Then who are we to deny that decision of the Father?
The Father remains the Father and the Son remains the Son. But if the Father felt pleased to position His Son above all, to give him all authority, a name above all, to appoint Him as our judge, then all a believer can do this is to show his joy over this and honor the Son wit the same honor he would give to the Father.Reply by donotforgetus on 2015-02-27 11:50:37
Menrov, you wrote, "I asked my wife the following: if Jesus, when all things have been subjected to him, will subject himself AGAIN to the Father (1 Cor. 10:28), to whom is he subjected now? It cannot be to the Father according to his text?"
I looked up 1Cor.10:28 the scripture you cited, "But if anyone says to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake;"
Perhaps it is best that your wife keep her conscience intact and allow Jehovah and Christ to lead her.
1Cor 15:24-28 "then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."
Do you believe Jesus is today reigning in his Kingdom abolishing all rule, authority and power? Are the human governments abolished? Is earth ruled by Christ? If not then Christ's Kingdom is not yet ruling over the earth. It is Christ's rule over the earth, his Kingly rule over the earth, that is handed back to his Father. Then all things will be as they once were and were meant to be.
Every fiber of Jesus' being gave glory to his Father. He taught us how to pray to our Father. He taught that everything he did and said was not from him but from his Father. He died doing not his will but his Father's will. And yet, you believe it is good today to put ourselves outside of the Father's supremacy and regard Jesus as Jesus himself taught us to regard his Father? If this is so then Christ did a very poor job of teaching us such an important and supposedly life saving relationship with him.
Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom not the God of God's Kingdom.
Where the Son of God is, so is his Father. To see the Son is to see the Father. Even so, the image is NOT the One he reflects. Jesus is not God. This is what Christ taught.
"Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."
LauraReply by menrov on 2015-03-01 03:06:00
Laura, I made a type with 1 Cor. 10. I meant chapter 15 as you corrected. Not sure if you really mean Jesus did a poor job. Also your statement He is King of the Kingdom Not God of the Kingdom is new as bibke does not speak of God of the Kingdom. Finally, if Jesus is not King now, you are denying the doctrine of the WBTS.
Anyway, it is up to anyone to disregard certain scriptures in order to support one 's own ideas or mental model. In the end, not the Father but Jesus is our judge.
Comment by The Way on 2015-02-26 05:47:42
The act of proskuneO to Jesus is an act of worship toward God.
Conversely, the primary way of worshipping God today is to proskuneO to Jesus.
This is in fact the only approved Way of worship today, in order to approach the One we know as the Father.
That's about the simplest I can put it.
Comment by on 2015-02-26 06:44:46
I think one of the problems we have in our minds is our preconcieved understanding of what worship means ..i do not believe that the word accurately describes the meaning of four greek words . In our western mind worship can only belong to god . I think if proskuneo was rendered to jesus then it was . We cannot render the word differently when it applies to the father . With our understanding of the word worship i do not believe it accurately represents the greek word proskuneo . As i said last week .. If we break the word down into .its two parts Pros . Kuneo .it means. PROSTRATE .and KUNEO is always translated as DOG in the greek .. To my mind here i see a picture of the sort of willing submission that a faithfull hound has toward his master .. I believe that this is the sort of attitude we should have toward our master jesus christ . . And make no mistake by doing so we are also subjecting ourselves to gods will . There by rendering him service . See phillipians 2 and psalms 2 .. kev c
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2015-02-26 07:57:09
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Psalms 95:6
Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before Jehovah our Maker:
Chronicles 7:3
All the sons of Israel, seeing the fire come down and the glory of the LORD upon the house, bowed down on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshiped and gave praise to the LORD, saying, "Truly He is good, truly His lovingkindness is everlasting
Daniel 3:5-6You will hear the sound of the trumpets, followed by the playing of oboes, lyres, zithers, and harps; and then all the other instruments will join in. As soon as the music starts, you are to bow down and worship the gold statue that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up. 6 Anyone who does not bow down and worship will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace.
God has been very clear that we should not bow down or serve any other god(s) besides him . But then Paul reveals to God's people that God has sanctioned the worship and bowing down to His Son. Hebrews 1:8, Philippians 4:8
I always found the account of Stephen especially interesting in this regard:
Acts 7:59
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
Stephen near his death like Jesus death appealed to his Lord. Stephen understood that he could ask Jesus to forgive sins, receive his spirit. Why didn't he appeal directly to the Father upon death in imitation of our Lord?
The apostles were very clear that it was Jesus that was to receive the glory honor riches and blessings because he was slain. He was to be worshipped like the Father.
Revelation 5:11-14New International Version (NIV)
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Both the Father and Lamb is worthy to be worshipped. In this scene the elders 1) fell down and 2) and worshiped the Father and the Son in the same manner. There's no seperation in the "kind" of worship that Jesus receives and The Father receives. We honor the Son. That's honoring the Father. It is in no way the reverse because the Father said it is not possible. We don't know the Father. Only the Son knows the Father and the Father knows the Son. We can only know the Father IF Jesus chooses to reveal Him to us. It's a privilege that was only made possible by his shed blood. (Matthew 11:27) We have to be chosen by Christ for such a privilege. In the future Jesus will be made subject to the Father, and we will all worship his God together as one. 1 Cor. 15:28. We are to Honor Jesus sO that we can honor the Father. We cannot honor the Father in other way. There's no other path to the Almighty. Jesus is the Way to Him.
As you know it is my firm belief that the Apostles understood after receiving the HS that Jesus had been the God they were worshipping all along. It would have been understood by the Jews that the promised Messiah and King was to be worshipped like all other Kings anointed by God. (and thus obedience to our anointed King was required ) David "worshipped" Saul in this regard and no doubt the Israelites worshipped David (as they did Pharaoh). The revelation by John that Jesus is God and was with God in the beginning and everything in creation is through him for him and by Him. The Jews could not accept what JW's refuse to accept. That the Son of God is equal in rank to the Father at this time. If God has set things up this way to reconcile us to him...Who are we to otherwise? Jesus can forgive sins. He not only could resurrect like Elijah but he is a lifegiving spirit. No other person can create or impart life besides the Father and the Son.
Our King is much more. John reveals him to be God. Whenever we feel a knee jerk reaction to deny the Son the glory honor and riches we should immediately remember that Jesus said the Father sanctioned it. He proved this fact to John who witnessed creation worshipping both him and the Father. It is a wicked lie of Satan that Jesus as the Son of God should not be worshipped. The bowing down is only an outwardly act of worship. That's why he wanted that specifically from Jesus. (Matthew 4:9) To worship someone as God is something entirely different. (Acts 12:23). JW's must first kiss the son and obey him as ruler and king. Jesus said, “If you love me you will keep my commandments.” Do we show Jesus that we love our King? JW's insist that the Jehovah is King and that Jehovah has revealed to them the true way to worship Him. But does this reconcile with the letters of the Apostles, Jesus' Words or the revelation that Jesus gave John many years after? (Revelation 1:1, John 1:1)
Thank you Meleti for this fine article. I remember some time ago you were very insistent that the word worship was loaded. You have presented that very well in this article! I appreciate the time and effort that you put into this article. It's a labor of love and I know God appreciates the slaving that you do for Christ and his brothers. (and so many other Christian brothers)
(I didn't have time to proofread :/ hopefully my scattered thoughts are somewhat clear)
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2015-02-26 08:00:12
Meleti could you shorten my comment please? I copied and pasted the same information twice. Thx!
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-26 08:20:33
Done.
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2015-02-26 11:55:02
I had a thought. I believe the roadblock I had in understanding the worship of Jesus because I was raised to believe that acts of worship(works)= worship. I'm learning that worship is very personal. Only God knows if we are worshipping him as he is the reader of hearts. Acts of worship are for men to measure spirituality. Worship is housed in our hearts. We have the responsibility to make it pure and true. The GB has a formula. I couldn't even compare it to the milk of God's word as Paul understood that to be. It's formula that they are constantly working to improve upon to feed millions of people. I can only speak for myself. I was starving and dying on the JW's formula or product. I'm only finally getting to the milk of God's word. I am a spiritual babe but I'm growing everyday :)
For the Jews, Jerusalem and the temple was the place to worship God. As you have beautifully illustrated in this series, Christians do not have a physical temple to worship in. Jesus didn't promise us a central place to worship like the Jews. The apostles didn't feel the need to focus on "the building work " of temples. No RBCs needed.
Jesus is offering to release us from the yoke of religious leaders in exchange for his yoke which is kind and light. Our bodies are Temples . That's what Jesus is inspecting when he returns. He has washed our robes clean in his blood and given us a clean righteous standing . It's up to us individually to keep our on robes clean ...no religious leader can give you that.
As a side note... We have all grown so much from meeting together here in this forum.:) It a joy to see the HS unite us as we gradually grown up in Christ :)
Comment by on 2015-02-26 12:42:42
Thank you Meleti! These 3 articles are outstanding on clarifying worship. I loved how simplified it in the end that from our point of view as SERVANTS, Jesus is indistinguishable from the Father, as regards authority and right to command. When we worship Jesus, we are worshipping the Father...we are following his will for his servants.
Well said!
Shannon
Comment by stonedragon2k on 2015-02-26 12:52:52
Meleti your sentiments are mine. I've come to the conclusion you so eloquently outlined here for some time.
The religion of JW's is not Christian. It is another sort of 'good news'.
The religion of JW's is totally ANTI-CHRISTIAN and 'anti-christ' in the sense that JW's will do anything in order not to give so called 'to much glory to a creature' as I've heard it stated so many times - and if that means disobeying God, so be it. As a relative told me, they would rather err on the side of caution in not giving Jesus to much glory.
The JW religion is stuck in some kind of weird twilight zone of Judaism and Christianity. For one thing, it certainly is NOT Christian.Reply by Christian on 2015-02-26 15:06:01
"The JW religion is stuck in some kind of weird twilight zone of Judaism and Christianity. For one thing, it certainly is NOT Christian"
That sums up how I feel as well.
It's a simple test as to where our hearts lie - "Do we partake of the wine & bread"?
Faithfulness to that declaration is another matter, but we must first partake to be considered a Christian, otherwise we are something else.
The GB/WTS seek to regulate and filter Christ's right to call his disciples to him.
When you peel back what they are doing to fundamentals then they are on very dangerous ground.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to".
Matt.23:13Reply by MARILYN NEMETH on 2019-09-18 10:31:59
I must agree. This is the straw that broke the camel's back. When coming to this understanding of how the JW deny the Christ at memorial, I left. I use to reason with a reply, "wait on Jehovah." I had even started having the memorial at home to separate myself from their denial. But I came to realize Jehovah has nothing to do with this organization. Can't eat at the table of Jehovah and the table of demons. It was time to stand firm for truth to myself, my family, and others. Now I let others know that I have left the Watchtower Organization and no longer affiliated with the Kingdom Hall.
Comment by donotforgetus on 2015-02-26 17:24:52
To everyone: In the interest of gaining a better understanding of what most here believe I am posting a comment from Albert Barnes on John 5:23. Perhaps some would venture to comment on what points they would agree with Barnes and where they would disagree with him? Barnes is of course a Trinitarian and I believe most here are not but I think he does a good job of going into the fire of the discussion on the worship of Jesus. Something many here agree with.
As always, I have much respect for everyone here because we all sincerely seek God and his Son.
Laura
John 5:23
That all men should honour ... - To honor is to esteem, reverence, praise, do homage to. We honor one when we ascribe to him in our hearts, and words, and actions the praise and obedience which are due to him. We honor God when we obey him and worship him aright. We honor the Son when we esteem him to be as he is; when we have right views and feelings toward him. As he is declared to be God Joh_1:1, as he here says he has power and authority equal with God, so we honor him when we regard him as such. The primitive Christians are described by Pliny, in a letter to the Emperor Trajan, as meeting together to sing hymns to Christ “as God.” So we honor him aright when we regard him as possessed of wisdom, goodness, power, eternity, omniscience - equal with God.
Even as - To the same extent; in the same manner. Since the Son is to be honored even as the Father, it follows that he must be equal with the Father. To “honor the Father” must denote “religious” homage, or the rendering of that honor which is due to God; so to honor the Son must also denote “religious” homage. If our Saviour here did not intend to teach that he ought to be “worshipped,” and to be esteemed as “equal” with God, it would be difficult to teach it by any language which we could use.
He that honoureth not the Son - He that does not believe on him, and render to him the homage which is his due as the equal of God.
Honoureth not the Father - Does not worship and obey the Father the First Person of the Trinity - that is does not worship God. He may imagine that he worships God, but there is no God but the God subsisting as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He that withholds proper homage from one, withholds it from all. He that should refuse to honor “the Father,” could not be said to honor “God;” and in the like manner, he that honoreth not “the Son,” honoreth not “the Father.” This appears further from the following considerations:
1. The Father wills that the Son should be honored. He that refuses to do it disobeys the Father.
2. They are equal. He that denies the one denies also the other.
3. The same feeling that leads us to honor the “Father” will also lead us to honor the “Son,” for he is “the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,” Heb_1:3.
4. The evidence of the existence of the Son is the same as that of the Father. He has the same wisdom, goodness, omnipresence, truth, power.
And from these verses we may learn:
1. That those who do not render proper homage to Jesus Christ do not worship the true God.
2. There is no such God as the infidel professes to believe in. There can be but one God; and if the God of the Bible be the true God, then all other gods are false gods.
3. Those who withhold proper homage from Jesus Christ, who do not honor him even as they honor the Father, cannot be Christians.
4. One evidence of piety is when We are willing to render proper praise and homage to Jesus Christ - to love him, and serve and obey him, with all our hearts.
5. “As a matter of fact,” it may be added that they who do not honor the Son do not worship God at all. The infidel has no form of worship; he has no place of secret prayer, no temple of worship, no family altar. Who ever yet heard of an infidel that prayed? Where do such men build houses of worship? Where do they meet to praise God? Nowhere. As certainly as we hear the name “infidel,” we are certain at once that we hear the name of a man who has no form of religion in his family, who never prays in secret, and who will do nothing to maintain the public worship of God. Account for it as men may, it is a fact that no one can dispute, that it is only they who do honor to the Lord Jesus that have any form of the worship of God, or that honor him; “and their veneration for God is just in proportion to their love for the Redeemer - just as they honor him.”
Any comments?
Thank you.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-02-26 17:58:49
Laura,
This is becoming a topic unto itself, so it would be best to repost this in the Discuss the Truth forum which is better suited to this type of dialogue.
Meleti
Reply by menrov on 2015-02-27 06:31:08
I agree with Meleti that this is a subject in itself. However, in essence I agree with the fact that both the Son and Father need to be honored equally in order to be acceptable to both.
Nevertheless one comment. Above in point 2:
2. There is no such God as the infidel professes to believe in. There can be but one God; and if the God of the Bible be the true God, then all other gods are false gods.
This is a bit playing with letters and capitals. Anyone can be a god. Satan is one. A belly can be a god and richness as well.
There is one almighty god, and that god announced that He has a Son and that He gave that Son all authority, and honour and glory and power to judge and a name above all and said we, believers, should listen to the Son and give him equal honor.
As He is the almighty God, He can do that. We are to enjoy that.
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2015-02-26 20:14:53
Speaking of our rendering of Hebrews 1:5,6 " In 1970 the NWT didn’t use the word "obeisance." Until then verse 6 read this way: "Let all God’s angels worship him" (italics added). Angels don’t worship an archangel, who, after all, is just another creature. They worship God (Rev. 19:9-10, 22:8-9). When the NWT was first made, this verse slipped by the translating committee and effectively undercut the Witnesses’ assertion that Christ is really Michael. "
Does anyone know whether or not this assertion has some validity or not?
Comment by menrov on 2015-02-27 06:40:30
People in old biblical times very often did not listen to prophets (Acts 7:52, Rom. 11:3, 1 Thess. 2:15). Why? Because they were NOT THE FATHER, just a prophet.
The WBTS treats Jesus as he was "just" a prophet, a messenger.
The Father made it clear that with HIS SON it will be different. The same "prophet" they killed would be exalted to a superior position, to be their judge and us believers WILL have to accept His role and authority because it is the will of the Father.
Comment by miken on 2015-02-28 11:26:13
Even in the NWT the Lamb (Jesus) is worshipped (proskuneó) at Rev 5:14.
Comment by Anjinsan on 2015-03-02 13:44:43
I read and I read, and re-read. Fortunately and Unfortunately I don't understand greek. I do know that we all love both the Father and the Son. And from the comments I have read we all acknowledge the leadership position of our Master Jesus Christ.
Two accounts of our Lord came to my mind on this subject:
John: 4: 21 - 24. and Matt. 4: 9, 10.
If someone asked me: "Whom do you worship" And my answer has to be limited to an individual. I would be more at ease in giving an answer that is based on the above scriptures. If some one else is more at ease in giving a different answer based on how he/she discerns other bible verses.....I choose to respect that.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-03-02 15:22:46
Based on what I've learned from researching these articles and the comments as well, I'm now strongly disinclined to use the word worship because of the misunderstandings that can result. I prefer to go with the more specific meanings found in the four original Greek words.
Reply by on 2015-03-02 18:02:44
Yes i feel the same meleti . Its a poor translation..in our modern language that has caused much confusion .kev
Comment by What is Worship? | Beroean Pickets on 2019-07-14 09:37:24
[…] that in mind, we will end here and take up this discussion next week in our final article of this […]
Comment by PierrotSud on 2021-04-12 07:21:40
Excuse me but I'm still having trouble with worshiping Christ.
I am certainly not the only one.
+ Over 40 years as a Jehovah witness can explain this.
I have a question about the passage in Matthew where Jesus says Matthew 22:37
37] Jesus answered and said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind.
For me in this passage the verb to love is synonymous with to adore.
And so if Jesus indicates that this is the first commandment, then there is only Jehovah to worship.
I am certainly wrong I am quite confused about what "worship" really means in these scriptures.
PeterReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2021-04-12 08:40:27
I am assuming you have read all three articles in this series on worship. It would be hard for me to add more to it than I have already explained in the articles.
Perhaps we can understand it this way: Worship means to love, adore, revere, and obey someone. Since there are four different Greek words that are translated as worship, perhaps we should get away from the English word altogether because it's too vague. For example, the Greek word proskuneo is translated worship in most Bibles, but you don't have to love, adore, or revere the person to whom you offer proskuneo. You only have to obey him. The word implies total submission to the will of another.
Would you obey Jehovah God if he told what to do? Of course. Would you obey Jesus Christ in the same way given that Jehovah God has given all authority to Jesus Christ according to Matthew 28:18? I would assume the answer would also be yes.
Now, when you think of worship, you think of loving or adoring God. So, I would ask you whether you love Jesus Christ? Does loving Jehovah God mean you cannot love Jesus Christ? Does obeying Jehovah God unconditionally mean you cannot obey Jesus Christ unconditionally?
When you think of worshiping Jehovah God, what action or activity comes to mind? When you have that activity clearly in your sight, ask yourself if you would perform the same activity for Jesus.