The Slow Crumbling of Credibility

Comment by Christopher on 2015-05-28 18:31:39

So your hooked me with "why we don't do book studies anymore". Why?

• Reply by anderestimme on 2015-05-28 19:26:52

  Well, I can't say for sure, but the primary reason was almost certainly not fuel prices or family worship. My best guess is security. The homeowner had no way of knowing who the publishers might invite to his home. Depending what part of the world you're in, that could be a big problem.
  Another possibility is that too many pedophilia cases involved the intimate setting of the book study.
  Finally, as Alex mentions below, there's the possibility that free thinking ran amok one too many times in the book study environment.

  • Reply by Nieves1980 on 2020-10-17 14:52:22

    Estoy de acuerdo contigo Anderestimme. Pero me inclino a pensar que los estudios bíblicos en las casas daba lugar a los libres pensadores y eso es muy peligroso para el C G. No les gusta que pensemos por nosotros mismos.

Comment by Alex Rover on 2015-05-28 18:57:34

I didn't start out losing confidence in the Governing Body, they lost confidence in me:
The Book Study was too open as a format for bible discussion. Private Bible Study groups were outlawed. Then asking questions at all became frowned upon. Then the 5 minute part was reduced in time, also the Bible Highlights. Anything that could possibly be used to express free thinking.
I started feeling like they didn't want me to think anymore. Why? What are they scared of? You do not hide your light and put it under a table. I always believed that truth has nothing to fear. So what do they fear?

• Reply by Claudelle on 2015-05-28 20:31:18

  Alex.
  How can one out law studying the bible privately or with a few friends? Isn't it the only authorized work of God?

• Reply by qspf on 2015-05-28 22:10:03

  What do they fear?
  1 John 4:18: "There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love."
  John 5:39: "YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. 40 And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life. 41 I do not accept glory from men, 42 but I well know that YOU do not have the love of God in YOU."

Comment by apollos0fAlexandria on 2015-05-28 19:59:03

Andere
My own transitions could not be more accurately reflected other than by what you have expressed.
Internally I have long held the door open to the idea that the top level of the hierarchy might be unaware of their error, or at least are caught up in a self-delusion strong enough to mask the truth of the matter. I have always tried to give them the benefit of the doubt (as I think you and many others have as far as possible).
I can now say, with very little internal doubt, that I no longer see room for such excuses.
What does this mean? What does the future hold? Who knows? For those of us who will never give up our baby, even while the bathwater is steadily discarded, we are still aware of the Christian bedrock on which anything else might stand. And while some things may indeed create additional questions, the more I distance myself from dogma, the easier it is for me to appreciate the beauty and truth of Christianity. (John 8:32)
Thanks for article.
Apollos

• Reply by anderestimme on 2015-05-28 20:41:01

  Assuming the dishonesty didn't just begin with the May broadcast, it brings up the question of how far along the corruption is. I don't really want to start re-analyzing all that's come down the pipeline in the last few years, but I can't help thinking that the GB's new identity as F&DS may have been something beyond Acute Immodesty Syndrome.

• Reply by qspf on 2015-05-28 22:06:08

  Speaking of the truth and beauty of Christianity, you might want to check out this link to the 2015 release of "Return to Jehovah", a brochure intended to get inactive ones to come back:
  http://goo.gl/St910X
  I looked through this, and what struck me is (a) the GB totally has their heads in the sand if they think the main reason people leave is materialism or anxieties of life and ignore the growing dissent regarding their teachings and policies, and (b) this publication REALLY means to return to Jehovah, and not to Christ. Other than a handful of mentions about being a "Christian", Christ himself - much less any mention of following Christ, exercising faith in Christ, etc. is totally missing. In this book, Jesus is basically MIA. They seem to be trying to see how many times they can say "Jehovah" in one paragraph; even "God" is seldom used, which is interesting.
  This seems like a concerted effort on the part of the WT to eliminate Christ from this so called Christian religion. That would be a neat trick if you could do it, but I am beginning to believe they will pull off this trick.

Comment by robcrompton on 2015-05-29 04:01:50

A perfectly good reason to seriously rethink the book studies in private homes - as meetings to which members of the public are invited and which are controlled from the KH - would be the question of public liability insurance. That could well have become a massive problem for congregations and householders alike. So that ought to have been factored in to the the thinking. But then, there would be no good reason whatever not to be fully open out it.

• Reply by anderestimme on 2015-05-29 12:55:06

  I agree about the liability issue, but I can think of a couple of reasons why they might opt not to be fully open about it: First, so as not to put it in anyone's head to sue if it hasn't occurred to them already, and second, to give the impression of having made a decision for positive reasons, rather than having been forced into it by the threat of litigation.

Comment by kev on 2015-05-29 05:09:09

The leaders of the religion realize that they can get away with saying and perhaps even doing anything they want to Wether its in reality right or wrong . Just as pilate said what is truth .? It never ceases to amaze me how the majority of people in this world wether religious or not will whole heartidly believe anything they are told if it comes from an authority figure especially if others say they believe it as well . It goes on in politics religion everywhere . The JW s are the same perhaps even more so .. .... The difference is with those who frequent this site is that we are as the watchtower describes us as independant thinkers Who use critical thinking to deduce what is the real truth . Hebrews 5 v14 . . The leaders of religion do not want people like that among the ranks .!! . As for stephen letts video i havent seen it myself i know a couple of thinking people who have and i got the impression they found it sickening. Personally common sense should tell us something is wrong if hes begging for money .when they are a multi billion dollar organisation . !!! Kev

Comment by Vox Ratio on 2015-05-29 08:23:16

Undoubtedly there have been legal and governmental infractions that have altered the governing body's policies on some matters. However, while I can suspect the personal mendacity of an individual within the context of revealing a ruse or contriving a corruption, it seems far less likely that the entire governing body are guilty of a protracted and collective duplicity. Rather, many of these issues can be attributed to the sheer power of belief, and a recognition of the subtle effect of Hanlon's razor. For instance, consider why it is that the Ethiopic church in Axum truly believes that they possess the Ark of the Covenant; or consider why it is that the Mormon hierarchy advocate for a consecrated people within the Americas for which there is no historical evidence.
Furthermore, if an ex-JW (Gordon Ritchie) can truly believe that he is the third mediator of God and if another ex-JW (A.J. Miller) can truly believe that he is Jesus Christ himself, then we can surely get a sense of how a seriously aberrant theology might be formed by the power of belief, or how pathological delusion can be shaped by it.
Perhaps more germane is how some will ultimately be judged adversely despite believing they are faithfully following the Lord's will (Mt. 7:21). This is ostensibly the same belief that deceived the religious leaders of Jesus' day, namely, the self-assurance of having a blessed heritage as well as the conviction of a favoured heavenly mandate. On the one hand they used their heritage to confirm their history, and on the other they used their mandate to confirm their future.
Whatever the case, these situations surely play into the invisible hand of the enemy, or they play out of it.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-29 09:24:02

  I appreciate your insight into this subject, Vox Ratio. Paul spoke of men who "publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works." Yet, at one time, he was one of these same men. It took a miraculous manifestation of the Lord Jesus to turn him around. Jesus told him, "To keep kicking against the goads makes it hard for you." These metaphorical "goads" would have been the hard evidence that God was behind the work of the Christians. Paul, or Saul as he was then, was acting under the same influence you point to in your comment. He was not alone in this attitude, but in his case there was good in his heart; good which only Jesus could see at that point. So of all the Pharisees, Jesus knew that Saul was his man.
  I can't help but wonder if one or two of the Governing Body are not perturbed by the way things are going. Surely there are highly placed brothers in the various branches and in headquarters who are disturbed. While the wheat and weeds may look alike for much of their growing period, there comes a point when they can be easily distinguished. This happens for individuals and collectives.
  Saul/Paul got his tipping point forced upon him. Perhaps the spirit acts in similar, albeit more subtle ways, in our day. At some point, however, the tipping point is reached and the spirit of a man swings in one of two directions. At that point things either improve or go downhill fast. The same seems to take place for a collective. Jehovah spoke of the error of the Amorites not yet having come to completion. (Ge 15:16) But when it did, he acted to wipe them off the face of the land.
  I seems to me with my limited human vision and understanding that as a collective, the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses has reached its tipping point. I think we are going to see an acceleration along the path the Organization is taking. I think the evidence will mount more quickly now and this will serve for many as a Pauline manifestation that they are also kicking against the goads. Time will tell.

  • Reply by life2come on 2015-05-30 09:35:53

    Which "one or two of the GB" do you believe are "perturbed by ghe way things are going"? I have heard all of them on now on JW TV and I dont see anyone different from the others.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-30 12:48:06

      You wouldn't though, would you? If they are having second thoughts, like Nicodemus or Joseph of Arimathea, they'd know how to keep it hidden. I was expressing a possibility--a hope really--not something I have knowledge of. However, if there are such ones within the GB itself or in prominent positions at headquarters or the various branches, they cannot continue in this way. At some point we have to take a stand for right if we are to find the favor of the Christ.

• Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-05-29 09:28:44

  You, sir, are good with words. Stay around so I can learn :-)

• Reply by anderestimme on 2015-05-29 12:51:44

  I'm not sure who scares me most, the guy who's consciously and maliciously deceptive or the one whose delusions allow him to deceive without admitting it to himself.

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-29 09:30:04

Andere, I appreciate the way you've developed this topic. You are honest and forthright without being pejorative. You describe a path of growing awareness which is familiar to so many of us. It helps us to accept the facts and think on them analytically. Thus, we can see things for what they really are and choose a wise course of action. Thank you.

• Reply by MM on 2015-05-29 13:39:05

  I too was once delusional, so it's not too difficult to understand the situation that these brothers are in. As a JW I believed without a doubt that I had the truth and I shared my beliefs with others as the purest, unadulterated form of truth on earth. I was willing to die before getting a blood transfusion. I felt guilty when I didn't meet a certain quota on my field service report. How many of us were delusional? These brothers were raised in the same system that we were and as a result they can't see outside of the box. They don't know anything else and are taught that searching, questioning and testing are wrong and shows a lack of faith.
  Thankfully, I experienced what I believe is nothing short of a miracle. This miracle us what woke me up. The scales fell from my eyes and I was able to look at the organization in a pure, honest light.
  All we can really do is pray for those who are still delusional.

  • Reply by anderestimme on 2015-05-29 14:15:41

    You know, when I made the above comment I almost tacked on a rueful line about my own past delusionality, but couldn't quite figure out how to put it. It amazes me that for so long my life was built on such a faulty foundation. On the other hand, much of what I am today, and the good things I have, is due to my JW training and lifestyle. I do need to remind myself, now and then, that it was a delusion with some very positive aspects. Therein lies, for me, the source of much in the way of mixed emotions: the good was good and the bad was bad, and it's a challenge to recognize and denounce the latter without disavowing the former.

    • Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-05-29 16:05:17

      This brings me back to the topic of "mercy for the nations". Given humanity's tendency to fall in such delusions, I find it impossible to think that Jehovah would default honest hearted ones to second death for their delusion. It's almost inconceivable that THE CREATOR who made us this way, would not show mercy, nor sufficiently value the blood of his own son, in respect to forgiving those who are in the human condition.

    • Reply by on 2015-06-01 15:36:16

      Alex i agree and have been thinking how the scriptures harmonise with one another on this point . I think that god would only punish those who deliberately rebel against him .. I think come the end there will be no doubt in peoples minds what the real truth is .!! the big question will be if we reject it or follow it . It was the same in moses day and jesus day . With the signs they performed the attitude of many displayed a deliberate rejection of the holy spirit .. hebrews 10 v 26 to 29 .hebrews 6 v 4 to 8 .I think before the end a thorough witness will be given by the symbolic 2 witnesses of revelation 11 . And with holy spirits backing .from that time on if people become deluded i think it will be because they want to be 2 Thessalonians 2 v 9 to 12 .also revelation 6 v 16 v 17 and revelation 14 v 6 .and 7 . Kev

Comment by Thinking on 2015-05-29 17:13:09

I too have, like the OP, gradually moved from more or less faith in the org to a cautious and rigorous examination of everything that is now published. The many doctrinal changes and the seismic shift in accounting procedures and the money grab (I did the cong accounts up to not so long ago) have made me very suspicious of bro Lett and the GB.

Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-05-29 23:25:36

The previous comments are a encouraging blend of what I have felt for a long time.
Re the discontinued home book study arrangement, since the change I have observed a growing negativity in the cong,the meetings at the hall no longer give personal encouragement, it is really more like a business meeting than a gathering of brothers in love.Everyone leaves promptly, once upon a time people used to linger after the meetings, the only ones that do seem to be those in full time service.
I perceive a real spiritual hunger among the bretheren, whereas people I have come to know outside the org are thriving spiritually, they are involved in deep bible study and community service , the brothers on the other hand are becoming progessivly institutionalised and they don't know why they feel the way they do,the influence of the GB is becoming insidious and , I believe, is destroying spirituality, I also believe that the GB are actually afraid of the Holy Spirit ,they want it to be distributed on their terms not Christs.All of this is impacting in negative ways on the faithful, I never thought I would see it so in the truth.

• Reply by Ray B on 2015-05-31 18:16:45

  I was thinking about this recently Wild Olive. Or should I say comparing when I was in Christendom to now 20 years later. I remember before I became a JW how much love & enthusiasm I had for Jesus, how much I loved reading the Bible, how I loved to talk to others about Christ. I really feel my genuine spirituality has gone through a slow decaying death over the years & is now just an empty shell. Bible reading feels like a burden & I don't have the same enthusiasm that I used to. Meetings & witnessing has become a routine rather than something I want to do. I was never expected to go to church but I rarely missed going. Now I feel like I couldn't care if I never walked into a KH ever again. As you said it's become more like an institution, something we criticise other churches for. It's only that my wife is still a full on JW that keeps me playing along to keep the peace. With all the doctrinal changes lately I'm not even sure what we're "supposed to believe" anymore & now I'm starting to see the falshood in so much of our beliefs I'm not even sure what I believe anymore. I can't help wonder how many others feel the same way.

  • Reply by ian j howat on 2018-11-03 14:27:31

    ive been in since 1963. i was happy untill the elder arangment came in 1972..i created a them and us culture. some brothers who were servants giving public talks for some reason no longer qualified and were broken by it .i was told i was a min servant and did not want it..yes agree on book study .i prefered book study evening to k hall. proper bible study answer in your own words..now its like an amway training class on wed evening .i rarely go now..wife still trusts the GB .i have lost all trust in them since lett lied about the vhild abuse saying it was apostate driven lies. i cant stand the broadcast of jw dot org..id prefer to go back to the anglican church at least they are transparent and dont lie about whats going on..i wonder how much longer the GB can hold out..the conventiins are so depressing i dont go any more.and the dreadfull shunning videos are dusgusting..its all i can do now just to go with wife to sunday meeting .and jesus is missing from everything now..

Comment by just a thought on 2015-05-29 23:40:50

Talking about the mechanics of being deceived:
We all know about the impoverished Nigerian who contacts you to solicit your help
to access his $20 million inheritence, and who is too poor to pay the $5000 legal fees
involved in claiming the money, but who out of sheer appreciation offers to pay you a millon bucks in return for your kind help.
Well the same mechanics opperate when it comes to spiritual matters and spiritual
deception.
Does anyone really believe that God will be impressed by a person who takes advantage of a man in such a gross way?
Is God really going to be impressed with the offerings of paradise-soon-Christians
and others who are in any way, or organization, are seeking to worship Him for
impure and selfish reasons?
Above all things safeguard your heart, the seat of motivation.

• Reply by Ray B on 2015-05-31 18:23:15

  I think you really summed up part of the problem with the term "paradise-soon-Christians". There is so much focus on what the future holds & how close it always is but neglect to the here & now. How often study articles conclude with the final paragraph reminding us that faithful Christians will soon experience the blessings of God's new world

Comment by Vox Ratio on 2015-05-30 02:15:49

Yes, I too would not be surprised if there are some on the Governing Body that feel no small dismay over some of the actions taken in recent times. Unfortunately, it would seem that if there are indeed such dissenting voices, then their call is in the minority and it has heretofore been unable to persuade unanimity of voting.
As you know, Paul informs us that the man of lawlessness acts under God's permission as a means of retribution for those who do not love the “truth” – that is to say, that which is true – not any particular constellation of people (2 Thess. 2:9). Some have tried to hold the Governing Body to account, both in public and in private, but their seeds of change have invariably fallen on fallow ground. However, if there really are members on the Governing Body that purposively and unabashedly love what is true more than their perceived blessings, then these men deserve our utmost respect and our prayerful consideration. Perhaps our Lord will amplify their voices and allow their seed to rest within the top-soil – for that, it seems, is the only way it will ever germinate and thrive.
If the seeds of change are planted too low within the hierarchy, then they will sprout without ever seeing the light of day.

Comment by Vox Ratio on 2015-05-30 03:54:13

Apologies, Meleti. The above comment was intended as a reply to your own. I'm still getting used to this format. ;)

Comment by on 2015-05-30 09:11:54

Well sorry to say this but the GB give me the creeps, and I don't trust them, they have lied way to much and I personally can't bare to hear them speak or to look at them anymore.

• Reply by qspf on 2015-05-30 15:24:36

  I feel that's true of Stephen Lett in spades. He totally creeps me out, except when he talks, acts and gestures like a buffoon (truly no disrespect meant, but, I am sorry to say, that is regrettably the way he comes across). It is embarrassing to listen to him, and I am actually embarrassed for the GB that they would use such poor judgment in selecting him for this role. Not everyone is well suited as a public speaker on a video broadcast, and this is the proof. I don't know how the rank and file JW can even stand to watch this stuff.

  • Reply by Skye on 2015-05-30 15:35:05

    Actually, some brothers and sisters find him endearing - strange, don't you think.

    • Reply by qspf on 2015-05-30 18:29:32

      very.

  • Reply by Ray B on 2015-05-31 18:26:27

    My wife absolutely adores him. He's just like a loving Grandpa she says. My feelings about him are more in line with your comment qspf

Comment by Skye on 2015-05-30 14:26:44

Two questions to which no one as yet, as far as I know, has ever been able to answer:
1) Do the GB know what they are doing, or are they delusional?
2) Where's all the money really going?
Whatever the answers are, one thing that we do know for sure is that they are not the way to God.

• Reply by alskadedotter2@gmail.com on 2015-06-03 07:51:33

  Where is all the money going? -- that has been a question I have asked myself. We have always been told this is for the worldwide preaching work, local needs and for construction of halls -- Why is it necessary to have huge groups of people -- bethelites, circuit overseers etc, that get fed, clothed and housed for free. The Organization has become a huge business trodding on the rank and file for support. Why do JWs need a huge luxury resort where everyone lives for free and gets a small stipend to exist. If we truly were different from Christendom, then everyone would pull their own weight, make their own way, support themselves and give their time freely when possible to the command of Jesus - to spread the good news. We have so many tiers, that I feel we are not more than all the other churches we have condemned for so long.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-06-03 08:36:44

    Good points! Bethelites get their cars serviced, their rooms cleaned, the clothing laundered, the medical and dental care provided, their meals cooked. When they travel, they get to stay for free in other Bethels. When I pay for all these things, I am also left with a small stipend each month, but I also have the worry about where the next paycheck is coming from. Monastic living has its benefits to be sure!

Comment by qspf on 2015-05-30 19:43:33

Andere, you wrote, "there is an awful lot in Stephen Lett’s hour-long petition for funds that is simply not true. Furthermore, it’s unbelievable that he doesn’t know it."
Could you cite the specific statements made by Stephen Lett that you believe are not true, and why you feel that way?

• Reply by anderestimme on 2015-05-31 12:22:32

  Hi qspf, you can find an in-depth consideration of the May Broadcast here.

Comment by trigonometry7 on 2015-05-31 00:15:33

I guess it is times like these when PROPHECY needs to be read with apostate Bethel in mind.
Then we know Bethel is INTERNALLY compromised:
(Daniel 11:32) “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant (at Bethel), he (8th King/King North) will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.
(The Bethel "smooth words" 8th King cover-up in the JW publications is part of the smoothly justified apostasy);
And that is why Daniel 11:27-45 also has a major Bethel diversion retained, to cover up THEIR OWN apostasy, while Daniel 11 apostasy from "King North" 8th King powers has now fully overrun the UN NGO JW ministry.
From within.
The GB is more than just "premeditated", according to God by Daniel, they are enemy system aligned INSIDE the "smooth word" apostate Bethel ministry to cover up 8th King King North prophecy while they are going fully terminal.
The GB are not only not anointed, they are nto even Christian, they are King North placed INFILTRAITORS.
Time to wake up, the Bethel coup that is coming is what they are working on. (Matt24:15)
ONLY anointed Christians in compromise NOW, can define that above mentioned Daniel 11:32a "apostasy". It CANNOT be Christendom, it is Bethel based.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-05-31 08:34:53

  It is one thing to judge teachings as false, but if we venture into the realm of prophetic interpretation, we are venturing down the road that so many false religionists have walked before us with disastrous results. Granted, any religion that perverts the good news can be said to act against the covenant. However, it is a leap to say that any particular religion fulfills the King of the North prophecy. Let us leave that judgment in the hands of God and the hindsight of history. We're not there yet.
  We have a duty to unmask falsehood and false teachings, but let us leave the judgment of individuals in the hands of Christ where it belongs.

Comment by menrov on 2015-05-31 03:21:00

I always wonder : if you would read about the same changes and practises we read and see in the organisation but then about another religious organisation, would you feel any sympathy fot those leaders? I guess it is much harder when it is very close to you.

Comment by menrov on 2015-06-01 04:13:46

The Sheep & Goat parable has become lively discussion, which is most interesting. Nevertheless, I sometimes feel we try to read too much in it. It is a parable, not a vision about a future event. It is to teach a lesson, to illustrate a point. In my view, Jesus is both teaching His disciples a lesson and at the same time give hope and confidence to the people in the nations.
To His disciples, it is to teach them to not look down on people in the nations. To remain humble. It was a Jewish custom to consider people in the nations as of no value at all. There could be a risk His disciples would adopt or continue with that attitude. But, among the people in the nations,there are persons who will be supporting them (brothers of Jesus), will do basically what Jesus expect His disciples to do but these persons are not even aware they are doing the right things. So, there is absolutely no reason for brothers of Jesus to look down on the people in the nations. In the end, many of them will be considered sheep as well.
To the nations it is to show them that Jesus is there for them as well. They ALL have an equal chance to become a sheep.
Overall, the lesson is to love you neighbour. ALL your neighbours. Jesus is in that case your shepherd.
A wonderful parable for all.

Comment by noblemindedthinker on 2015-06-01 12:23:08

The simple fact that nobody has A CLUE how much money the society actually has in the form of real estate, securities and cash should be a huge red flag. The reason the society doesn't publish information regarding their finances is because it would stumble many.
You can see where all of the donated money is going - real estate. It is a stable asset that will appreciate during bull markets and can act as collateral for more development loans. Purchases of real estate throughout the world (RTO's) can easily be spun as furthering the preaching work. If its not regional translation work it will be video production, or historical local archiving, or enhanced training facilities, or podcast production, or bible museums, or website development, or whatever. Only their imagination is the limit to the justifications for the extensive purchase of real estate across the globe.
What would be the reaction of many if they found out that the society was worth tens of billions of dollars? One hundred billion? Two hundred billion? There has been a dearth of information regarding their finances. If information leaked regarding finances at the US branch I bet it would be a huge shock to the R&F.

• Reply by alskadedotter2@gmail.com on 2015-06-03 15:59:25

  This can be researched

Comment by Buster on 2015-06-02 20:06:47

It seems as each passing year the Organization has been drifting toward more money based and them asking but not really asking but really asking and then Mr Lett has the nerve to say We are not asking for money...no of course not.. I like mentions but not outright Russell August 1979 ..DO YOU WANT “ZION’S WATCH TOWER”?
Do not suppose these remarks to be an appeal for money. No. “Zion’s Watch Tower” has, we believe. JEHOVAH for its backer, and while this is the case it will never beg nor petition
men for support. .... Yeah and it seems every passing month the watchtowers are in a way letting us now..to donate money..Again if you so wish please do, but the constant telling us is getting out of Control and a bit off putting

• Reply by Buster on 2015-06-02 20:08:26

  Sorry 1879.... Woops my bad