Simple Indoctrination?
Those of us who have awakened to the unscriptural nature of our unique JW teachingsl, upon hearing an account like this, will nod our heads and turn to each other muttering, “Understandable. It’s just their indoctrination speaking.” I’m not so sure anymore. Certainly, indoctrination is a major factor, but focusing on it takes the spotlight away from the individual and puts most or all the blame on the indoctrinator. It’s like people who blame every bad thing that happens to them on Satan. In the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses, is it really that simple? I began to think otherwise just recently after trying to preach the real good news to some longtime JW friends. There was an immediate, almost instinctive, rejection of what I was showing them, even though they couldn’t defend their beliefs from the Bible. Dwelling on it afterwards, I recognized a familiar pattern, one I’d seen many times before when witnessing to Catholics in Latin America. Were Catholics and Jehovah’s Witnesses really so much alike? The thought surprised me. It forced me to realize that I was still viewing Jehovah’s Witnesses as something apart from the rest of Christendom; thinking we were somehow still special. When it comes to indoctrination, we are definitely in a tightly controlled minority within Christendom. It is true that there are many alarming similarities between the religious methodology of Jehovah’s Witnesses and that of mind-control cults, but I don’t see the Organization as a cult, any more than I see the Catholic Church as one. True, we do have disfellowshipping, which the Catholic Church had for centuries, but has now mostly abandoned. Yet what we practice institutionally, Catholics practice communally. I have seen many who upon becoming Jehovah’s Witnesses were shunned by Catholic family and friends; teenagers even being thrown out of the family home. (This reaction is not exclusive to Catholics, by the way.) Without the same level of indoctrination and absent the enforcement of excommunication by the local priest, why did these people act in exactly the same way as my JW brethren do? Are Catholics as indoctrinated as Jehovah’s Witnesses, or is something else at work here? Does the similarity in reaction indicate a similarity in mindset?
A Bill of Goods
Indoctrination is lying. It is lying crafted on a carefully fabricated framework of ideas, and like all good lies, it is based on some truth. But when you boil it all down, it is still lying, and lying originates with Satan. (John 8:44, 45) For a lie to work it has to sell something the hearer wants. Satan sold Eve a false bill of goods: She was to be like God and would never die. As it turned out, part of that was true, but only in a sense; the really important part—the part about not dying—well, that was false. Yet, she bought it. Every Christian denomination today does this. They are like corporations that are selling their own version of Christianity. They have a product all nicely packaged, gift wrapped, and tied up with a pretty bow. The core product is the promise of life eternal. (Even non-Christian religions sell this core product. Satan knows what the client wants.) Each corporate division of Christianity, Inc. adds its own features to the products, selling its exclusive brand and model.
The Purchase Price
To continue the analogy, Jehovah was offering Eve eternal life in paradise on Earth; but so was the Devil. However, Satan sweetened the deal by offering a product feature God did not. “Eternal Life on Earth 2.0” came with a handy-dandy Self-Rule feature. Of course, the Devil was really selling vaporware, but Eve believed his sales pitch and bought the product. Adam apparently wasn’t deceived but for reasons of his own went along. (1 Ti 2:14) Perhaps he just wanted self-rule and was willing to give up eternal life to have it. This brings to mind the words at James 1:14, 15. The angels that desired the daughters of men knew this would result in their death. Yet, it seems the enticement of that pleasure was enough to cause them to sacrifice eternal life. The currency used to purchase the products Satan is selling is obedience—obedience to him, obedience to other men, obedience to self, whatever! Just not obedience to God. The fact is, as Eve found the fruit desirable, as the angels found the human women desirable, so many find the products sold by various religions to be highly desirable and are willing to pay the price. Through lies—aka, indoctrination; the infrastructure of religious doctrine—the various divisions of Christianity, Inc. sell products they do not own. It is all vaporware for which they exact a high price, but which in the end they cannot deliver. Ultimately, their clientele will be left bereft and bankrupt.
The Products on Offer
Let us review some of the major product brands.
Eternal Life – Brand Name: Catholicism
Product Selling Points
- Be in the only true Christian faith. We had it first!
- Share in a rich spiritual heritage going back centuries.
- Enjoy extensive cultural traditions and festivals that will give meaning to your life.
- Attend the biggest and finest cathedrals.
- Bask in a worldwide brotherhood numbering in the hundreds of millions.
- Sins forgiven on the spot. Confessionals placed at all locations for your convenience.
- Freedom to live any way you want without loss of membership.
- An assured place in heaven.
- Our patented “Last Rites” process will save even the worst sinner.
Product Sales Price
Only lifelong unconditional obedience to the Pope and his local representatives, plus on-going monetary support. (Warning: You may be required to kill your fellow man in times of war.)
Eternal Life – Brand Name: Fundamentalism (Various Models available to suit personal needs)
Product features
- Be in the one true Christian faith. (This feature included in all models)
- A friendly, down-to-earth clergy. We dress like you do.
- Speak in tongues and perform faith healings. (This feature not available on all models)
- "Once Saved, Always Saved." It's hard to go wrong, unless you were meant to, then it's hard to go right.
- Bask in a worldwide brotherhood numbering in the tens of millions.
- Help God change the world through lobbying.
- Take comfort that anyone who gets the better of you in this world will rot in hell.
- Despite declarations of political correctness that say otherwise, be assured that only the true believers (aka you) get raptured up before Armageddon hits.
- Enjoy the wealth and prosperity that comes to those who donate richly to the Lord.
- Hang out with people who share your high moral standards. (Actual practice of said standards is largely optional.)
Product Sales Price
Unconditional obedience to church doctrine. Hefty financial support. Some models tithe because they don’t trust your generosity. (Be prepared to give your life for your country, because that is God’s will.)
Eternal Life – Brand Name: Jehovah’s Witnesses
Product features
- Be in the one true Christian faith. (No, this time we mean it.)
- Know you are special, one of the elite who will survive Armageddon while all around you die.
- Enjoy splendid isolation from all the world’s problems, knowing it is all going to end within 5 to 7 years, max.
- Look forward to being young again and having a perfect human body.
- Rejoice in a worldwide brotherhood numbering in the millions.
- Know that as long as you go to all meetings and go out in the public ministry for at least 10 hours a month, you’re pretty much guaranteed a place in paradise.
- Look forward to occupying the beautiful homes of those whom God kills at Armageddon.
- Look forward to frolicking with lions and tigers.
- Look forward to being princes in the Earth. (This last feature applies only to elders.)
Product Sales Price
Unconditional obedience to the Governing Body. Regular financial support. (No worries about dying in war, but you may have to die if you need blood.)
Mormons have their own product as do Hindus and Muslims. But two elements are consistent in all product lines. 1) The “Eternal Life” feature, and 2) the payment price. The ubiquity of the first feature should not surprise us. At the beginning, Satan said: “You certainly will not die.” (Ge 3:4) As for the second element, the purchase price, well, that goes back to the beginning as well. There only have been two choices ever: Obey God or Obey Satan.
“So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”” (Lu 4:5-7)
For those who would fool themselves into believing that by obeying men they are obeying God, we have 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. When men make themselves equal to God by requiring we obey them unquestioningly even when their words contradict Scripture, they transform themselves into these selfsame ministers of Satan.
The Installment Plan
All the products marketed by Christianity, Inc. are sold on the installment plan. That is because it is God who is supposedly going to make the final delivery. They sure can’t. In a riveting account of the Bernie Madoff scandal, we learn how people ignored the math, turned a blind eye to what the numbers were telling them, and continued to invest in the Madoff pyramid scheme. Throwing good money after bad, some investors who could have gotten out in time, became the architects of their own downfall. This underscores the very human tendency to not want to admit a mistake even to oneself. In a state of denial, clinging to the dream of vast riches, people failed to make the hard choice and save what they could of their reputation. In the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses, many love the elitism our religion fosters. The belief that we alone are saved. We also relish the brotherhood, the association with long-time friends. The thought of having to give that up terrifies many. Then there are the years of self-sacrifice to look back upon. How many have given up on their own potential, postponing dreams with a view to fulfilling them in the New World: Artistic pursuits that never were; children that were never born. All for a dream that is now a fantasy?! It is simply too much to countenance. So most continue to make payments on the installment plan, throwing good spiritual currency after bad, hoping vainly like the Madoff investors that it will all somehow work out for them.
The Dream
If you look at the particular bill of goods on offer by the JW.ORG division of Christianity, Inc., you can easily see why it is especially enticing to Jehovah’s Witnesses. From the convention platform, the web site, and countless publication articles with beautiful artist renditions, Jehovah’s Witnesses are being sold on an ideal world in which they alone will live at the start, and over which they will essentially rule, and from which they will take the pick of the war booty. It is actually quite a materialistic view of paradise. Imagine how enticing this is if all your life you’ve felt left out while others enjoyed the fruits of this world. You’ve watched yourself age and you’ve experienced the loss of youth, vitality, and good health. You’ve envied the beautiful people with their perfect bodies and their beautiful homes and lavish lifestyles. So why wouldn’t the idea of youth, beauty, vitality, and unlimited wealth appeal? Maybe you’ve been a window washer or cleaner all your life. Why wouldn’t you desire a position as a prince in the land? There is nothing wrong with that, is there? No, there isn’t. If…IF…this is what God is actually offering you. When James says that everyone is drawn out and enticed by one’s own desire leading to sin, we think of obvious sins like fornication or avarice. (James 1:14, 15) Since the desire to live in a paradise earth is hardly wrong, one would never think that James’ words could apply. But what if we are putting our faith in vaporware; a slick pitch by a crafty salesman? What if a false hope is keeping us from seeing the real one? If our desire for something not being offered is keeping us from accepting God’s real offer, if it is causing us to reject God’s gift, then would that not be wrong? It is hard to see how rejecting God’s free gift could be anything but a sin. Jehovah’s Witnesses have been sold a picture of life in the post-Armageddon world based entirely on the interpretation of restoration prophecies given to the Jews. Look through the Christian Scriptures. Did Jesus go about preaching survival of Armageddon and life on a paradise earth? Did he speak of building homes and cavorting with wild cats? Did the Christian writers convey word pictures like anything the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses portray in countless artist renditions?
The Reality
At Acts 24:1-9, we find Paul was on trial before the governor because of accusations against him by the Jewish leaders, including the high priest. As part of his defense he states:
“And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Ac 24:15)
This was a hope that Paul had. There is nothing in the book of Acts, or elsewhere, to indicate Paul preached two hopes. He did not go to people preaching to them the hope of remaining unrighteous and being resurrected as such. Paul was among the righteous referred to here. He will be resurrected to spiritual life. (1Ti 4:8) As for the unrighteous he refers to, those then seeking to kill him would certainly qualify. Such ones will come back to earth under Christ’s millennial reign as part of the resurrection of the unrighteous. Yes, billions will again live on earth and have the opportunity to become reconciled with God through the mediation of Christ’s sacrifice and under the loving care of his brothers who will serve as both kings and priests for the healing of the nations. (Re 5:10; 22:2) However, that is not the hope extended to Christians. The reward that is on offer is to become one of Christ’s brothers, an adopted child of God. (John 1:12; Mk 3:35) This is not a product feature offered by the JW.ORG division of Christianity, Inc. As the devil wraps his lies in a shroud of truth, so what Jehovah’s witnesses preach is based on some truth. There will be eternal life on earth and the vast majority, if not all, of those who reject the reward now being offered will not entirely lose out on the chance of life. They may well be among billions of unrighteous ones who are resurrected. But will that be the paradise JW.ORG would have us envision? Can you really envision a world full of sinful, immoral people to be a cakewalk? Even with Satan’s temporary absence, it is going to be a challenging time; a time of great transition. And after Satan is released, there will be war! (Re 20:7-9) Additionally, does it make sense that God would go to all the trouble of selecting tested, faithful ones, give them incorruptibility, and then snatch them away to heaven to govern the earth remotely, all the while leaving the hands-on work in the lap of imperfect, sinful men – the local elders, now exalted to the status of princes?[1] Would you want them as rulers? Would that be a paradise to yearn for? Do we seriously believe that the resurrection of billions of unrighteous people will result in a thousand years of harmonious living? Let us to the math. What are the numbers telling us?
Rejecting the Pearl
Jesus told us that the truth will set us free. (John 8:32) He also told us of a man who found a particular pearl a very great value. (Mt 13:35, 36) So valuable was this pearl that he sold everything he had to process it. Who would do that? Who would sell all his possessions just to own one single pearl? A true follower of Christ would. He would be willing to give up everything for the truth, the real truth, and nothing but the truth. (Mt 10:37-39) It saddens us that so many of our brothers and close friends in the Organization seem unwilling to do this. We hold on to the hope that circumstances will soon change, making it even more obvious how empty the hope they’ve invested in truly is. This goes for all Christians in all divisions of Christianity, Inc., not just Jehovah’s Witnesses. This situation and the time that has gone by and that which remains give true meaning of Peter’s words:
“Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2Pe 3:9)
Wheat and Weeds
I am not one to look for something significant in every little element in one of Jesus’ parables. Nevertheless, when some elements seem to fit so well with observable facts, it is hard not to draw conclusions. In the parable of the Wheat and Weeds, the master says:
“Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.” (Mt 13:30)
The weeds get gathered first. They are bound and burned as bundles. Then the Wheat gets taken into the storehouse. The Wheat isn’t bundled. It is not separated out into groups. Only the Weeds are bundled. The field is the world and the harvest is of the Sons of the Kingdom, i.e., Christians. However, false Christians are also planted by the Devil. So the crop—Weeds and Wheat alike—is Christendom. Jesus’ account of the signs of his presence shows that the last thing to occur is the gathering of his chosen ones, aka, the Wheat. (Mt 24:31) If our understanding of the meaning of Babylon the Great is close to accurate, then before the chosen ones are taken up to meet Jesus in the air, false religion—aka, Organized Religion—will be burned up.[2] (1Th 4:17; Re 18:8) Anyone remaining with it, any of God’s people who do not abandon it, will be burned up with it. The Bible says that judgment starts with the house of God. It seems that the Son of man isn’t targeting individuals so much as religious groupings. Anyone siding with, supporting and affiliating himself or herself with a bundle of weeds will get wrapped up with them and burned. We may feel that we have to disassociate ourselves and break all contact with false religion immediately to be saved. That is certainly an option, just as it was an option for Christians in Jerusalem to abandon the city at any time before the invasion, even decades before. However, it wasn’t a requirement for salvation. The requirement was to get out of her when they saw the disgusting thing causing desolation. (Mt 24:15-21)
Let Us Be Wheat
The fact that the Wheat is intermingled in among the Weeds right up to the time of judgment indicates that it has not been separated out into its own distinct grouping. It is not in a bundle, nor does the Lord put it into a bundle. There is no religious denomination that the Wheat belongs to. It resides alongside the Weeds right up till the end. When we launched this new site, we expressed plans to expand our work in spreading the good news. Some were short term and others longer term. Since then, there have been some on other sites who have expressed concern that we are just starting our own religion. Even when talking with my unbelieving JW friends who know nothing of this site, I hear the same refrain. Learning of my belief that our doctrines are false, they conclude I’m going to start up my own religion. Why is that such a common reaction? I believe it is because they cannot conceive of worshiping God without being part of some group. They want to and need to be bundled. Worship is a group activity these days. You have to belong to something and have someone tell you how to worship God and what to do to please him. You have to surrender your conscience to a man, or group of men. It is understandable that they would jump to this conclusion because we are accustomed to having corporations make stuff for us. There was a time when people built their own homes, made their own furniture, sewed their own clothing. Not anymore. Everything we want or need we buy ready-made from a store. So when it comes to religion, the same mindset comes into play. We look for a corporation to sell us our belief system. One of the corporate divisions of Christianity, Inc. is bound to have a product we find enticing; something to invest our time and money in. I won’t speak for anyone else, but for me, I’ve had it with corporate Christianity. I don’t need a packaged product, ready to go, batteries included. The price is just too high. This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t associate with like-minded individuals in keeping with the exhortation at Hebrews 10:23-25:
“Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. 24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.”
In fact, Weeds and Wheat do gather together. Who’s to know the difference? Even the angels are cautioned to wait till the harvest for fear they misidentify a strand of wheat as a weed and destroy it. (Mt 13:28, 29) So if you want to window shop, and browse the goods on offer, go right ahead. Just do not purchase the product; do not submit to men. I have no wish to start my own religion. I have enough sins to answer for, without adding that doozy to the list. There is only one man we should follow and only one man we should obey, the Son of man, Jesus Christ. One day he will wipe out corporate Christianity. When that day arrives, if we haven’t done so already, we will have to act decisively and get out of any bundle of weeds we might be affiliated with. It may be soon. It may be a long way off. All we can do is echo John's wish: “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” (Re. 22:20)
[et_pb_divider admin_label="Divider" color="#1c6ca0" show_divider="on" divider_style="solid" divider_position="top" hide_on_mobile="on"] [/et_pb_divider] [1] JW theology teaches that Armageddon survivors will continue to be imperfect or sinful and will have to work toward perfection which will only be achieved at the end of the thousand years. The elders will rule is taught in the article, “Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today”. (w13 11/15 p. 16) [2] Whether Babylon the Great refers to all religion or only that portion of it corresponding to the house of God, Christianity, wherein judgment starts is immaterial to the matter at hand which is the sequence of events. (1Pe 4:17)
Archived Comments
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Comment by Skye on 2015-08-29 19:42:39
The weeds then could look like genuine wheat and therefore difficult to detect, as could be false teachings within a religious setting/website. We would therefore need to be relentlessly discerning.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-29 19:59:08
Absolutely!
Comment by Claudelle on 2015-08-29 20:51:03
Relief is what I felt after finishing your' article. I was so afraid for some reason that you would back down from the facts, the truth.......that you might cave in to pressure. I sent you an email for I was afraid you would tow the party line and thus I would have felt completely alone
Comment by Hamilton Grey on 2015-08-29 21:34:28
It is a huge step for anyone belonging to a high control group like jw.org to face the facts, as these brothers and sisters have invested all their emotional collateral in the company. As you rightly mentioned many have postponed their lives on the promised dividend payout and to admit you have been scammed is a reality to large to surmount. Many are also happy to let others manage their investment portfolio, in this way they don't need to make the important decisions for themselves, they hand this responsibility onto others. Psychologically know as cognitive dissonance, one chooses to ignore fact to suit ones belief system and create an alternative reality. Ps 146:3,4; Heb 5:13
Members of high control groups such as jw.org have paid a heavy price compared to many in mainstream corporate christendom due largely to the fact these members are allowed a higher degree of autonomy in their lives. For example their choice of education is not controlled, married couples not bound by bedroom laws, no need to sacrifice ones life over blood, recreation is not viewed as a luxury and sinful if not fully accomplishing your ministry, (ministry as defined by jw.org is witnessing) to name a few.
Your illustration of comparing religion to a company is profound espically for JWs, due to the undeniable fact jw.org fits the corporate model hand in glove. All our Kingdom halls now sport the new corporate logo or religious icon depending on your perspective, we are encouraged to dress on the professional business model so as not to apparently stumble anyone (unlike my beard which is a huge stumbling block to those wanting to learn the truth). We need to submit a time sheet to corporate head quarters so our works can be monitored and rewarded accordingly. The pressure of undue influence is a heavy burden in the everyday life of a humble JW. Matt 23:4; Matt 11:29
Yet despite all this Jehovah is close to all those wanting to know him, he is not a mystery shrouded under the cloak of religion, he does not want to be worshipped on the premise of guilt. He is not interested in rewarding people with positions of prominence, imaging they are blessed by promotion through an organisation. He is searching the heart of mortals to find those who wish to worship him in spirit and truth, those who have faith in whatever the reward it will be for the benefit of all who love him. He is seeking those who understand that works equals reward is as for filling spiritually as the proverbial carrot before the donkey, the true shepherd gathers sheep into his fold not carrot desiring donkey's. Jas 4:8; Isa 55:6; 1John 4:18; Heb 11:6; Rom 12:2; Acts 10:35
Recently at the hall a friend was commenting on a brother we knew in common who did it tough for many years, as a result he was viewed as "spiritual weak". (This is a common though among JWs for those who do not tow the corporate line) Recently though this brother has once again risen through the ranks to the point of giving a talk at the district convention (in the eye's of JWs this equates to spiritual giant status). My friend a critic of the society said "how do i get some of that fire back?" My reply: "easy, start to believe the propaganda again".
Yes we all have the right to believe what we want, that's what sets us apart from the rest of earthly creation, Jehovahs gift. Ga 6:7,8
Comment by Anonymous on 2015-08-29 22:25:05
Regarding the question, "is it just indoctrination", I suspect it actually is, to a great extent, but that's not all of it. Consider the very heavily used expression, "make the truth your own". Do we understand the significance of that? To make "the truth" our own, we have to (a) completely understand "the truth", (b) believe it unconditionally, and (c) internalize it - so much so that we almost think that WE came up with the idea. That would be all well and good if "the truth" were really true. In practice, what happens is that people "make the indoctrination their own". They cannot believe, or even conceive, that what they were taught could possibly, even remotely, be wrong. Anyone who tells them otherwise is "an enemy of the truth", an "apostate", an "agent of Satan", a purveyor of propaganda, etc. WT enforces this mindset of making the indoctrination their own by keeping people so busy, so preoccupied, and so isolated, that they don't have time to question what they are thinking or doing, and are cut off from opposing viewpoints.
Comment by Menrov on 2015-08-30 05:28:43
Indoctrination is a element that is at stake here. But having had a couple of discussion with my partner, I believe it is FEAR. FEAR that has been indoctrinated upon the member of the organization. Fear to have to accept that for years you have believed doctrines that are not scriptural, fear that for years you have given your time, energy and career to a cause that is founded on men made doctrines, fear that by leaving the organization, you are leaving God, fear that by leaving the organization, you end up without friends and often family....overall, fear of the thought that you have failed, that all the people who criticized you for your choices were 'right'. I believe that fear is the driver to avoid any discussion or event that triggers that fear. If one is very scared of spiders, that person would want to avoid all places, pictures or discussions that has to do with spiders.
Once a person starts to see and accept that being individual you can have a strong relationship with your creator and your redeemer. That is a personal relationship. You do not need anyone else to establish that. Once that foundation is laid, that person can share his / her joy with others. In other words, it is good to motivate people to establish first their own relationship / foundation.
When I decided not to go to the meetings or in any other way participate, I noticed I had to establish my own relationship with God and my redeemer because my former relationship was not really mine but a share relationship through the organization. I can understand that for many, that change is very difficult and often painful. But the reward is far bigger !Reply by father jack on 2015-08-30 07:20:15
I agree menrov its fear that keeps people in line . They find safety in numbers the thought of striking out on ones own or standing out in the crowd terrifies people and they are prepared to live a lie in order to avoid it . We should not give in to fear its a lack of real faith in god
Comment by Mailman on 2015-08-30 05:34:20
We just had our Circuit Assembly yesterday. A brother was interviewed on the stage. He was supposed to pursue an educational degree in Engineering. But since "Armaggedon is near", he opted to go for pioneering. Nothing against pioneering but the main motivation should still be love for our Father, Jehovah, and our Master, Christ Jesus. Another thing. Would pursing that degree mean he does not love God?
We as Christians should never forget the true context of this verse from Colossians 3:23-24 English Standard Version (ESV)
23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
"Whatever you do" - means not only about or when pioneering. It involves all our activities as Christians.
Comment by father jack on 2015-08-30 07:00:40
Thanks for the article meleti i do agree again with your perspective . (I do not wish to start my own religion ) the reality is that we cannot really do so . We should all belong to the one religion started by jesus christ . These denominations in my opinion are just like imaginary walls erected by people . Im sure that what really matters is whether we do gods will or not as an individual . We dont want people following our brand of christianity they need to follow the christ not us . People need to take charge of thier own lives . Our statement of faith is already written down for us in the christian scriptures its up to each individual to search and make the truth thier own . We should not follow the crowd we should follow the christ .
Comment by Alien Resident on 2015-08-30 07:02:10
Thanks Meleti, nice write up! I agree with your reasoning. Good illustration and application. I was surprised to hear the organisation, illustrated as a corporation by a instructor in one in the final talk of the KSE closing comments, and liking the graduate's as administraters!
Well, Satan is clever, no wonder Jesus called him at john 8;44 father of the lie! The inventor! From the start of rebellion and 1st prophesy at Gen 3:15-satan goal was to thwart gods purpose and mislead the many of the true seed. Heb 2:9,14. Yes slowly his been interwoven falsehoods of the identity of true seed -see the teachings of ancient Babylon, book the two babylons- for centuries until his arrival in 29ce. How would Christianity fair after the death of the apostles. Well starting in the council of niscea in 325 Ce . With the one universal church or Catholic Church and its doctrine's of men. Satan hasn't changed in his formula, a lot of good and add touch of poison -in fact a lot of sacred Christian teachings,customs and doctrines have their origins in Babylon of old!!!
So the name Christ is merely a mask that has been put all over the top of false religion! At a distance it may look very Christian, but have a peek behind the mask and it is horrifying. Is it any wonder that the Bible refers to all of false religion as Babylon the Great? Is it any wonder that God says, “Get out of her, my people”? (Revelation 18:4) If you don’t get out of her, you will “share with her in her sins”. (Revelation 18:5) Let us be very clear on this point. Jehovah God utterly detests false religion, he has a vehement hatred for Babylon the Great, and do you know why? It is because that is the vehicle used by(Satan) to bring about the destruction of the people Jehovah loves dearly, His creation. This is what Satan has used to bring about peoples’ destruction. And so Jehovah does not hate the people but he certainly loathes the system that has been used by Satan to bring about that end result.
So who has the truth. Or believes their organised way is the truth? You ask a Mormon, catholic, JW's, will say they do, look I'm a JW, But, we have deviated in some areas. What I believe won't change the GB's mind on matters, but I agree with Meleti 's final comment, we should follow and obey the son, the true seed.
Comment by Susan on 2015-08-30 16:04:26
So could you please write up the product features, selling points, and sale price for true wheat-like Christians?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-30 19:22:02
:) Thing is, I'm not selling anything and as for God, well, he's been purposely vague about the whole thing. There's eternal life, incorruptibility, but when you come right down to it, Hebrews 11:6 applies.
Reply by Susan on 2015-08-30 20:34:02
Thank you! Yes, well that is pretty vague and could therefore cast a broader net than we may suppose - even to sincere believers in said "Brand Names." I think Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to cover such faults and failings. It does not take a lot of brains to be a Christian, but humility to see oneself in need and where the solution lies. Also John 5:39-40 "You are searching the Scriptures because you think that you will have everlasting life by means of them; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet you do not want to come to me so that you may have life."
Reply by Alien Resident on 2015-08-30 21:24:11
Good thought, I guess also, it's not perfection...whoever, John 13:34,35...would be a starting point...
Reply by Boanerges on 2015-09-01 21:30:55
The scripture at Hebrews 11:6 reads "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." To me this reveals an even deeper subtlety. Belief in God could also be construed as a con game. A shell game whereby the writers of the Bible have used Jehovah's name and said: I'm here! Now I'm here! No, I'm over there! You can't find me, but you must believe in me. If you believe... Then! I will be pleased.
We are asked to believe in an invisible power, then it is made difficult for us to see that one. We are asked to believe in faith. But, who is the one asking for that faith? Does a living God need to play cat and mouse? Does he need to hide around corners in a game of hide-and-seek? A game where only those who find him give him pleasure?
Many scriptures in the Bible seem to me, to reveal a pattern of human authority. That of the ruling class and it's priesthood demanding belief, so as to maintain order. The scripture at Romans 13:1-7 is a leading example of this. What better way to ensure the civility of this newly embraced religion in Roman society, than for the Christians own holy writ demand that they honor and obey Caesar and pay his tax? Not that there is anything wrong with paying taxes. But, to me, the Bible seems written to coerce those who embrace it to become slaves, not only of God and the Christ, but to the humans who wrote it. I feel this applies to the Mosaic Law and tithing, as well as the use of Jesus and the widow's mite to show the need for monetary support to 'The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands." Acts 17:24
I fear that by refining our Christianity in this way, clearing the chaff of the erroneous teachings we were persuaded to believe by Jehovah's Witnesses, in order to reveal a "fresh", new wheat, we might somehow just be selling the same bill of goods over again.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-09-01 23:18:24
Would you then give up on faith altogether? Would you reject the very idea of a loving God because men have abused their role and taken advantage of others? Hebrews 11:6 requires that we believe in the character of God, not of men nor of their teachings. Being wheat means standing on our own, freeing ourselves from the teachings of others. We must believe what the spirit leads us to believe, or not. For the spirit does not reside in all. God does not force it upon us, but we must open ourselves to it.
Reply by father jack on 2015-09-02 03:09:04
Boanerges i can understand what your saying sometimes when weve had a rough deal with man made religion we may feel like giving up up all together . The scripture at hebrews says that god becomes the rewarder of those seeking him . If that is true i feel that we should as individuals feel some sort of benefit in our lives now by listening and applying the bible not just in the future . What i havve noticed in my life its not been so much tjhe bible that has caused me pain but an effort by men to twist it in an effort to exploit me . The bible itself warns of this . At the same time though i do feel that when i pray to god things do seem to work out and some tangible benefit should be felt even each day . Its this that shouldbuild our faith thelittle things each day . What about you can you look back and think of any areas in your life that you have been benefited from faith in the bible .?
Comment by Buster on 2015-08-30 23:20:05
More then a month ago, a sister said well people we meet at service are dead in a practical way, I actually said what outloud at the meeting, I kind of get tired with all holy holy talk we think we are at the meetings, and a recent talk a week ago, a brother said well a lot of religions don't believe in the bible, I keep gripping my chair wanting to say, man we really think we are all that don't we.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-31 08:36:41
Oh boy, do I ever know that feeling.
Comment by Buster on 2015-08-30 23:23:16
This article my brother said more truth then our so called truth magazine Watchtower has said all year, John 8:32
Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-08-31 00:16:38
Enjoyed the analogy, again it feels like your reading my mind lol
However on the point of the Catholic Church and the JW not being cults I have to disagree.
The whole fact that what your article deals with clearly demonstrates the control that both the pope and the GB have over their respective flocks shows them both to fit the definition of a cult, I even rember a brother saying in a moment of thinking out loud how easy it was to change from catholisism to a JW because there wasn't a lot of difference in themReply by JimmyG on 2015-08-31 04:59:23
Steve Hassan, an expert on cults and undue influence (mind control) for nearly 40 years, regards Jehovah's Witnesses as a cult. He was recruited and became a Moonie in his early years until his concerned family intervened and had him 'de-programmed'. This is what prompted him to start his research. His book, 'Combating Cult Mind Control' makes very interesting reading.
Reply by Vox Ratio on 2015-08-31 06:09:24
Hi JimmyG,
Thanks for bringing up Hassan. He certainly offers an interesting testimony and a useful critique, but his presentation isn’t balanced by the large body of countervailing sociological research that has gone into the cult phenomenon. If you’re looking for a more diverse analysis, I’ve found the research done by many of the scholars who have presented at cesnur to be a good deal more dispassionate and helpful.
Personally, I find the term “cult” to be mostly counterproductive in discussions with people for two reasons. Firstly, by contemporary sociological standards, Christianity itself is a cult (Stark & Bainbridge). Secondly, the word too easily becomes a pejorative designed to empower the user. For by labelling someone a “cultist”, it becomes all too easy to short-circuit a conversation – since now everything one needs to know about the value of another’s testimony has already been established by means of a label. The label acts like a “Stop” sign, if you will. However, I’d rather see as a “Proceed with Caution”. :)Reply by JimmyG on 2015-08-31 07:13:09
Yes, I agree Vox Ratio, the word 'cult' can easily become a pejorative. It would certainly be counterproductive to use the word 'cult' to a JW. As a 'faded' JW, I would never use the word with my devout JW wife for instance. Thank you for your comment and recommendations.
Reply by father jack on 2015-08-31 08:18:00
Apart from the obvious signs of a cult that i ignored for many years the biggest sign why i never believed that the witnesses were a cult was the fact that we didnt seem to be following a charismatic human leader or leaders .!! This was one of the signs presented in thier own publications see watchtower on line library are the jehovahs witnesses a cult .
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-31 08:38:56
My feelings as well! However, that is certainly changing at an alarming rate.
Reply by Anonymous on 2015-08-31 10:09:24
Who needs charismatic human leaders now? JWs have the GB. Gone are the days when these individuals toiled in obscurity, their names barely known or mentioned. Now they have their own TV show, and are seen jet-setting across the world (albeit, to give less-than-flattering testimony in worldly courts). Who needs charismatic leaders when you have rock stars? What's next at conventions - strobe lights, fog machines, chants from the crowd and masses of lighters held aloft? At least they have a fog machine: It's called the Watchtower.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-31 10:38:21
To be fair to Jackson, he was in Australia to be with his dying father. In fact, if he hadn't been there by that circumstance, it is highly unlikely that any Governing Body member would have appeared before the commission. As it was, the Society's counsel was instructed by the Branch to mislead the court as to Jackson's relevance to the proceedings, something which came out clearly in court and for which the counsel gave the court a veiled apology.
Reply by JimmyG on 2015-08-31 17:10:28
Anonymous- your reference to 'chants from the crowd and masses of lighters held aloft', got me thinking about the music video at the end of the August JW broadcast. The song sounds to me like a cross between a gospel and pop song. I could well imagine say, at the end of a convention, the audience singing with tears in their eyes and swaying back and forth with their arms aloft holding little lights, reminiscent of charismatic revival meetings.
Reply by Hamilton Grey on 2015-09-03 08:19:55
The term "cult" is used freely at times against groups one may not see eye to eye with, its a convenient label for a quick solution. Many would not see the Catholic church as a cult but by strict definition it would fit the catagory, along with many other organisations including Amway. It may be best to consider how much control the group/organisation has over its members on a sliding scale, from low to high, whether overt or covert. JW.org are masters of undue influence or "group think" pressure. If your still active in the organisation and a male try this experiment, grow a beard. If your a sister, wear dress pants to the meeting, you will start to understand the huge pressure placed on individuals by "group think". Both these actives break no principles of Christianity but you will be judged by your contempories as "spiritually weak" because of the overt laws put in place by men and by the covert actions of your brothers and sisters. 1John4:18
Reply by Skye on 2015-08-31 06:19:22
Leave the Roman Catholic Church - no problem, you still keep family and friends, even long time friends in the religious life, priests and nuns, still welcome you and are happy to discuss scripture.
Leave WT - shunned by family and friends.
Fade - conditions on that which are not acceptable to many, hence disassociation.
Comment by Vox Ratio on 2015-08-31 02:11:12
Hi Meleti,
Another stimulating monograph. Thanks.
If you don’t like Christianity, Inc. how about Christianity, LLC or Christianity, Pty. Ltd.?
More seriously, your conclusions concerning the parable of the wheat and the weeds echo my own. It’s a fascinating illustration that sure is difficult to make sense of if its application is not still ongoing. As to why people have a tendency to adopt rigid views, perhaps another illustration might also be useful:
For example, it seems to be the case that a person’s spiritual malleability is at its greatest when they are a new convert. That is to say, those first coming to realise their spiritual need and beginning to rejoice in the Christian message (cf. Mt. 5:3). This appears to also be a time of intense personal interest by those within the spirit realm, both good and bad (cf. Joh. 6:44; Luk. 8:12, 15:7). To that effect, I’ve found it helpful to think of religious programmes, or the corpus of institutional belief, as acting like concrete – both for its hardening effect as well as its compressive strength.
What’s more, while concrete may set quickly, it takes a much longer time to cure. It seems to be during this “curing” phase that a person comes to accept – even adore – the programmes that assisted their own spiritual awareness and growth. Once properly cured, however, these ones then become part of the overall compressive strength of the larger material. Of course, since concrete has a relatively low tensile strength, cracks inevitably begin to show. When this occurs, what often results is the unfortunate confusion over their religion’s compressive strength (the ability to withstand pressure) with its tensile strength (the ability to withstand fracturing). The former is seen in displays of group solidarity and communal resilience, and the latter in group think and doctrinal resilience.
Without a doubt the JW religion has tremendous compressive strength, as has been evinced by the pressures brought to bear upon it in Nazi Germany, The Africas, and even the former Communist Bloc. It’s this type of strength that has left many completely impervious to critical questions, since they have confused their religion’s compressive strength with its tensile strength, so to speak. We cannot, and should not, conceal the former; but we can, and should, reveal the latter.
... Or, at the very least, when you hear someone say “Praise the Lord!, I’ve been cured”, know that you’re going to need a bigger hammer. ;)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-31 08:14:05
Good reasoning, Vox Ratio. It does help explain the endurance shown under fire we saw in Nazi Germany and other places, as well as that shown by those enduring family opposition.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-08-31 08:29:35
Reading all of these excellent comments got me thinking about the interplay between desire, fear, indoctrination and cultism. There is, of course, no single reason why people remain in a false belief system despite evidence to the contrary. However, given the JW scenario specifically, I came up with a little thought experiment.
Let us say that the next Watchtower came out with an article correcting the false teaching of the other sheep, explaining that 144,000 is a symbolic number, and showing all JWs that the one hope that Jesus offered his disciples was to serve with him in the kingdom of the heavens.
Fear does keep many from accepting the truth, but if fear were the only factor, then this doctrinal change would take it off the table and everyone would cheerfully accept the "refinement". Those fully indoctrinated to believe they must obey the Governing Body would also jump on the band wagon. However, I think that there would be a monumental uproar to such a change. I think that those who have bought into the jw.org product would not accept this product recall. The desire to live as humans on a paradise earth is so strong that many Jehovah's Witnesses would be unwilling to give it up, even if the Governing Body itself were to insist on the change.
Of course, we cannot know what the reaction would be until such time as it actually happens, which I doubt it ever will, but based on my experience with friends, giving up the hope of eternal life as humans on a paradise earth is the single biggest stumbling block to accepting the truth.
Comment by father jack on 2015-08-31 08:49:39
Are jehovahs witnesses a cult .? A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that emphasises devotion according to a prescribed ritual . Many cults follow a living human leader and often thier adherants live in groups apat from the rest of society the standard for what is orthodox however should be gods word . And jehovahswitnesses strictly adhere to the bible thier worship is a way of life not of ritual devotion . They niether follow a human or isolate themselves from the rest of society . They live and work in the midst of other people . What do you think ? From the watchtowersown publications ARE THEY A CULT . ?
Reply by Anonymous on 2015-09-01 09:20:01
There has been quite a bit of discussion about cults in this article, and I would have to agree that as soon as someone shouts out "cult" it tends to put an end to the conversation. Anyone using this label wants to dismiss any possible validity on the part of those they labeled, since *being* a cult, or being in one, is indefensible on its face. A person might try to defend themselves as not being, or being in cult, but the harder one tries to defend themselves, the more it makes it appear they are 'guilty' of it. And of course, if they *don't* defend themselves, it's just as bad. If's pretty much the same as being accused of being a wife beater or child abuser. There's almost no good answer that will convince everyone. The mere accusation alone does the majority of the damage, whether justified or not.
By the same token, there is a similar "hot button" word that WT loves to use: Propaganda. I would invite all of the Beroean Pickets readers to do a search on the WT Library CD for all instances of "propaganda". You will find hundreds of references to it. The main thrust of a reference to "propaganda" in WT literature is that any systematic discussion of the WT organization that disagrees with it is, in their eyes, propaganda.
This blanket attempt to squelch discussion, debate and criticism doesn't work on outsiders, but it's very effective on JWs. What loyal Witness worthy of the name would even dream of reading "propaganda" against their beloved organization and GB? Using that pejorative of "propaganda" simplifies things for them, since the less that their members read from outsiders, the less that needs to be defended against.Reply by BeenMislead on 2015-09-01 13:00:35
Yep !! It’s called willful ignorance!!
They won’t listen to or look at the evidence/facts about their religion. And if they do know the facts, they choose to ignore it.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are indoctrinated to employ information-control to the point that they stick their heads in the sand.
Comment by Buster on 2015-08-31 11:09:35
When people bring up are Jehovah Witnesses a cult, and especially when a JW is around things might get a bit messy, look when people use the word Cult people say well you are being Judgemental, no we are not, this whole judgemental thing gets blown way out of control by most religion's, but there are things that is just is, or another way things are what they are.
Now when we come to JW's are a cult or not, I have always tried to say well not really, but we are just extreme, very extreme. But like any good argument or good trial Facts and evidence sure help. As our mighty Lord said The Truth shall set you free.
But as time as gone by and I fully gone down the rabbit hole and see and own 90 percent or more of the original material that the Watchtower track society has produced things, get weird and very very wrong real fast.
But let's see in recent times, we all know, every year heck almost seems like 5 times a year, we get a talk at the kingdom hall saying, well don't talk/think/or have it in your heart anything bad about Jehovah or his organization.... Big Mistake, Huge Huge mistake, so we have just Put the Organization the human organization and placed it in the position of God, yup big problem, as the two are way different things.
Now comes wait for Jehovah, no really wait for Jehovah, OK, thanks for the New Light I guess, that kind of is what it is, but I guess when you start predictions and set end time's dates and things like that, I guess Our Heavenly Father is working overtime, see you can't go and say a comment and then go and do things that are just downright foolish and really really dumb, I know I used the dumb word. And when they say wait on Jehovah, OK, I pray everyday as many on this great site, I don't want to burst anybody head, but the Big Man in the sky has never talked to me first hand, now if he has you well then I need your phone line. But when really they say wait on God, as one elder said to me wait on the Governing Body, aka Guardians of Doctrine's, yeah that title sure does not sound like a nearly Cult title to give to someone.
Well let's go back don't you talk about the Organization, OK, again i did not know the organization was a living creature, so who runs the Organization well I believe most jaws will say God, OK, so where is Jesus at, just sitting and waiting to be called to action. No we are know when it says don't talk about the organization, we know it means Governing Body, I love that scripture that tells us to obey the governing bod.....Wait you mean that word does not appear in the bible, you jest my good man, well it is in the table of contents in acts. Woops well we still need to obey them cause they are Inspired by God an.....Wait you mean they are not. Oh oh.....
And of course it comes to all the switching of doctrines, I love how the new light is bad old school expired light going everywhere and then nowhere, but all (well not all who have the nerve to say, WHAT!!!! ) The whole generation switching and now overlapping, to blood or some blood fractions, to other doctrine changes, when you need a guardian of doctrines we got issues, and of course you say i don't agree, well you are the problem and don't have faith, no no no, I got a brain that god gave me, and I thought we were to test every inspired statement or spirit depending on your Bible translation. Right so just follow what you sa u obey and repeat what we say, and of course in the future when wake decisions later no matter how they sound from a human view point, or don't make sense, You Best Get Yourself to Listen no matter, Yup that sounds 174 percent NORMAL, on Jupiter maybe but now on earth for me.
And then it goes back well we have use Jehovah name that is why one of the reasons we are Jehovah people, well as the broadcast said a few months back and heck as the world knows Jehovah, is most likely, I am being nice here with the likely is not gods name, we all know the closer translation is Yahweh, heck our watchtower CD explains that in a 80's watchtower article. But cause it is more popular and well known I guess we will stick with Jehovah, well wait a minute I thought we want the whole truth, maybe we should call our selves Yahweh Witnesses nope let's stick with this name. Sure OK. Cause it is more well known and popular, well ain't that the same with the cross of Jesus, well most of the world believes he died on the cross, but the jws went out of the way to say Nope everybody is wrong it is Stake not a cross. Right so you choose what you want and what you don't want.
I am not gonna say it is a cult, I mean I believe it is a controlling organization and you best listen or else, and all the evidence says we got many many many things wrong, and .......well now thinking about it are we a cult???????
I apologize if this post of mine is a little much, but I was stating facts, I love all on this site and continue putting up great post my brothers and sisters.Reply by BeenMislead on 2015-08-31 14:38:42
Here is a fact about Jehovah’s Witnesses that you will NOT find on their website (jw.org). This is a quote from the Awake magazine back in 1969:
“If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years.
Of the generation that observed the beginning of the "last days" in 1914, Jesus foretold: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."-Matt. 24:34.” - (Awake, May 22, 1969, P. 14, What Future For The Young?)
--------------------------------------------
Here is something that you will find on their website (jw.org):
“At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.” - (Watchtower 2013, 11/15, Pg. 20, Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today)
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult?
Does the above quote from the 2013 Watchtower Magazine sound like a cult to you?
Requiring un-questioning obedience to 7 imperfect men (the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses) whether these instructions appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not, is extremism and is cult-like!
This is especially disturbing and dangerous given the fact that they have been wrong many, many times in the past as the above 1969 quote from their Awake magazine testifies to.
--------------------------------------------
Here is another cult-like quote:
“We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval.” - (Watchtower, 2011, Jul 15, p.24, Simplified English Edition)Reply by Buster on 2015-08-31 15:00:45
Yup my friend I have the physical copy of that whole year of 69 awake, and we have the nerve to say oh no we don't do prophecies, right, sure they did not put a end date, but common in a few years, and this was in the start of the whole stay alive in 75 nonsense,
Reply by Wild Olive on 2015-09-03 19:31:26
I should make it clear I don't use the word cult in a perjorative way, I use it to identify a way of thinking.
I see the Catholic Church as the cult of the pope, Islam as the cult of Mohamed , and JWs as the cult of the governing body/ Rutherford, that's how I see it.
This thinking comes into play when something is said against the beliefs of said leaders,which many on this site have experienced, just yesterday I was thinking that I can have a more honest and real conversation with my pet lorikeet about Jesus and the good news, than I can with any JW that I know personally, if they are not affected by cult thinking why do they make me feel this way?
Comment by smoldering wick on 2015-09-01 11:01:21
Spiritual Economics 101 teaches us the basics of Groupthink in supply and demand. When groups demand doctrine, their leader supply it for the comfort of all......kinda like the room thermostat :)
Comment by smoldering wick on 2015-09-01 11:06:09
O welcome to the corporate church,
It has no walls within
To hinder you for all you search,
Because it has no sin,
And none dare question what it says,
It has no soulful need,
For all its words and deeds and ways
Have no such human creed,
Though telling truth has always been
A noble enterprise,
When none have seen or been so keen
To risk or criticize
The endless claims to always be
The truth of kingdom gold,
Which failed, you see, to set us free
From sin for which it sold;
While boasting that she does protect
The interests of us all,
That she will never swerve, but slave,
And never let us fall;
But was she born? and can she die
While men direct within?
Or have a heart? or tell a lie,
While having no such sin?
And since she lives and cannot die,
No father can exist,
To claim her children born of kings
Who wear her iron fist;
For all her words and rules and ways
Are inhumane indeed,
And should you ever question her,
Her greed will intercede;
And create law so absolute
That none dare criticize,
And will not blush to ever crush
Exposure to her lies
By using all her kingly class
Who parlay just for gold,
To govern us obsessed by hope
In falsehood we were sold,
So question not your corporate church,
For none have greater wrath,
Than eyes that search from where they perch
To watch your vagrant path.
Comment by Khaleesi O on 2015-09-15 19:05:08
Meleti,
This was a great article very well explained and it's right on about the importance at hand is we are in the wheat and weeds era, can't distinguish what is what until harvest time. Many worshipers of ancient times were alone worshipping Jehovah without an "organization" and had his favor.... hopefully at judgment time we also find His favor.