While a careful review of the three chapters starting with Matthew 21 has led us to that conclusion, what continues to muddy the waters for many are the 30 verses directly preceding Matthew 24:34. Do the things spoken of there have a bearing on the interpretation and fulfillment of Jesus’ words regarding “this generation”?
I, for one, used to believe so. In fact, I thought we could interpret the word “generation” to refer to all the anointed who have ever lived, since as children of God, they are the offspring of a single parent and thus, one generation. (See this article for more information.) Apollos also took a crack at the subject with a well-reasoned approach in which the Jewish people continue to constitute "this generation" down to the present day. (See his article here.) I eventually rejected my own line of reasoning for the reasons stated here, though I continued to believe there was a modern-day application. I am sure that this was due to the influence of decades of JW-think.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have always believed in a dual-fulfillment of Matthew 24:34, though the first century minor fulfillment has not been mentioned in quite some time. Perhaps this is because it doesn’t fit with our latest reinterpretation that has millions scratching their heads and wondering how there could be such a thing as two overlapping generations constituting what can only be called a “super generation”. There certainly was no such animal in the first century fulfillment which spanned a time period of less than forty years. If there was no overlapping generation in the minor fulfillment, why would we expect there to be one in the so-called major fulfillment? Rather than re-examine our premise, we just keep moving the goal posts.
And therein lies the heart of our problem. We are not letting the Bible define "this generation" and its application. Instead, we are imposing our own view on God's word.
This is eisegesis.
Well, my friends...been there, done that; even bought the T-shirt. But I'm not doing it anymore.
Admittedly, it’s not such an easy thing to stop thinking this way. Eisegetical thinking doesn’t spring out of thin air, but is born of desire. In this case, the desire to know more than we have a right to know.
Are We There Yet?
It is human nature to want to know what is coming next. Jesus’ disciples wanted to know when everything he predicted was going to happen. It’s the grownup equivalent of kids in the back seat crying out, “Are we there yet?” Jehovah is driving this particular car and he’s not talking, but we still cry out repeatedly and annoyingly, “Are we there yet?” His answer—like that of most human fathers—is, “We’ll get there when we get there.”
He doesn’t use those words, of course, but through his Son he has said:
“No one knows the day or hour…” (Mt 24:36)
“Keep on the watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.” (Mt 24:42)
“…the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.” (Mt 24:44)
With three warnings in Matthew chapter 24 alone, you’d think we’d get the message. However, that's not how eisegetical thinking works. It looks to exploit any Scripture that can be made to support one’s theory while ignoring, excusing, or even twisting those that do not. If one is seeking a means of divining Christ’s arrival, Matthew 24:32-34 seems perfect. There, Jesus tells his disciples to take a lesson from the trees which, when sprouting leaves, tell us that summer is near. Then he tops it off with an assurance to his followers that all things will occur within a specific time frame—a single generation.
So in a just one Bible chapter, we have three verses that tell us we have no way of knowing when Jesus will arrive and three more which seem to give us the means to determine just that.
Jesus loves us. He is also the source of truth. Therefore, he would not contradict himself nor would he give us conflicting instructions. So how do we resolve this conundrum?
If our agenda is to support a doctrinal interpretation, such as the overlapping generations doctrine, we will try reasoning that Mt 24:32-34 is speaking of a general time period in our day—a season, as it were—which we can discern and whose length we can measure approximately. In contrast, Mt. 24:36, 42, and 44 tells us that we cannot know the actual or specific day and hour when Christ will appear.
There is one immediate problem with that explanation and we come across it without even having to leave Matthew chapter 24. Verse 44 says that he is coming at a time we “do not think it to be.” Jesus foretells—and his words cannot fail to come true—that we’ll be saying, “Nah, not now. This couldn’t be the time,” when Boom! He shows up. How can we know the season when he will appear while thinking that he's not about to appear? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Not withstanding, there is an even bigger obstacle to overcome if one wants to teach others that they can know the times and seasons of Jesus’ return.
An Injunction Imposed by God
About a month after Jesus was questioned about "all these things" and his presence, he was asked a related question.
“So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”” (Ac 1:6)
His answer seems to contradict his earlier words at Mt 24:32, 33.
“He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.” (Ac 1:7)
How could he tell them in one place to discern the season of his return, even to the point of measuring it within the span of a generation, while just over a month later he tells them that they have no right to know such times and seasons? Since our truthful and loving Lord would not do such a thing, we have to look to ourselves. Perhaps our desire to know what we have no right to know is misleading us. (2Pe 3:5)
There is no contradiction, of course. Jesus isn’t telling us that all times and seasons are unknowable, but only those which “the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.” If we consider the question just asked at Acts 1:6 and tie that in with what Jesus tells us at Matthew 24:36, 42, 44 we can see that it is times and seasons relating to his return in kingly power—his presence—which are unknowable. Given that, what he says at Matthew 24:32-34 must relate to something other than his presence as King.
When the disciples formed their three-part question at Matthew 24:3, they thought Christ’s presence would be concurrent with the destruction of the city and the temple. (We must bear in mind that “presence” [Greek: parousia] has the meaning of coming as a King or ruler—see Appendix A) This explains why the two parallel accounts in Mark and Luke fail to even mention the presence or return of Jesus. To those writers, it was redundant. They were not to know otherwise, because had Jesus revealed this, he would have been giving away information which it was not theirs to know. (Acts 1:7)
Harmonizing the Data
With this in mind, it becomes relatively easy to find an explanation which harmonizes all the facts.
As we would expect, Jesus answered the disciples’ question accurately. While he did not give them all the information they may have desired, he did tell them what they needed to know. In fact, he told them a lot more than they asked for. From Matthew 24:15-20 he answered the question pertaining to “all these things”. Depending on one’s point of view, this also fulfills the question concerning the “end of the age” since the Jewish age as God’s chosen nation did end in 70 C.E. In verses 29 and 30 he provides the sign of his presence. He closes with a reassurance regarding the final reward for his disciples in verse 31.
The injunction against knowing the times and seasons that the Father has put in his own jurisdiction pertains to the presence of the Christ, not “all these things.” Therefore, Jesus is free to give them the metaphor at verse 32 and add to that the generation time measurement so that they could be prepared.
This fits with the facts of history. Four or five years before the Roman armies first attacked, Hebrew Christians were told to not abandon their gathering together as they beheld the day drawing near. (He 10:24, 25) The unrest and turmoil in Jerusalem grew due to anti-taxation protests and attacks on Roman citizens. It reached a boiling point when the Romans plundered the temple and killed thousands of Jews. A full rebellion broke out, culminating in the annihilation of the Roman Garrison. The times and seasons relating to the destruction of Jerusalem with its temple and the end of the Jewish system of things was as plain to see for discerning Christians as the sprouting of leaves on trees.
No such provision has been made for Christians facing the end of the worldwide system of things which comes on the heels of Jesus’ return. Perhaps this is because our escape is out of our hands. Unlike first century Christians who had to take courageous and arduous action to be saved, our escape depends only on our endurance and patience as we wait for the time when Jesus sends forth his angels to gather up his chosen ones. (Lu 21:28; Mt 24:31)
Our Lord Gives Us a Warning
Jesus was asked for a sign by his disciples while they were on the Mount of Olives. There are only about seven verses in Matthew 24 that actually answer that question directly by providing signs. All the rest comprise warnings and cautionary advice.
- 4-8: Do not be misled by natural and man-made catastrophes.
- 9-13: Beware of false prophets and prepare for persecution.
- 16-21: Be ready to give up everything to flee.
- 23-26: Don’t be misled by false prophets with tales of Christ’s presence.
- 36-44: Be vigilant, for the day will come without warning.
- 45-51: Be faithful and wise, or suffer the consequences.
We Have Failed to Listen
The disciples misconception that his return would coincide with the destruction of Jerusalem and that there would be a new, restored nation of Israel rising from the ashes would inevitably lead to discouragement. (Pr 13:12) As the years passed and still Jesus did not return, they would need to re-evaluate their understanding. At such a time, they would be vulnerable to clever men with twisted ideas. (Acts 20:29, 30)
Such men would exploit natural and man-made catastrophes as false signs. So the first thing Jesus warns his disciples about is not to be startled nor misled into thinking that such things would signal his imminent arrival. Yet as Jehovah’s Witnesses, this is precisely what we have done and continue to do. Even now, at a time when world conditions are improving, we preach worsening world conditions as evidence that Jesus is present.
Jesus next warned his followers against false prophets predicting how close the time was. A parallel account in Luke carries this warning:
“He said: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them.” (Lu 21:8)
Again, we have chosen to ignore his warning. Russell’s prophecies failed. Rutherford’s prophecies failed. Fred Franz, the chief architect of the 1975 fiasco, also misled many with false expectations. These men may or may not have had good intentions, but there is no doubt that their failed prognostications caused many to lose their faith.
Have we learned our lesson? Are we finally listening to and obeying our Lord, Jesus? Apparently not, for many eagerly embrace the latest doctrinal fabrication reiterated and refined in David Splane’s September broadcast. Again, we are being told that "the due time is near."
Our failure to listen, obey and be blessed by our Lord continues as we have succumbed to the very thing which at Matthew 24:23-26 he warned us to avoid. He said not to be misled by false prophets and false anointed ones (christos) who will say they’ve found the Lord in places hidden from sight, i.e., invisible places. Such ones would mislead others—even the chosen ones—with “great signs and wonders.” It is to be expected that a false anointed one (false Christ) will produce false signs and false wonders. But seriously, have we been misled by such wonders and signs? You be the judge:
“Regardless of how long we have been in the truth, we must tell others about Jehovah’s organization. The existence of a spiritual paradise in the midst of a wicked, corrupt, and loveless world is a modern-day miracle! The wonders about Jehovah’s organization, or “Zion,” and the truth about the spiritual paradise must be joyfully passed on “to future generations.” — ws15/07 p. 7 par. 13
This is not to suggest that only Jehovah’s Witnesses have failed to heed Christ’s warning and been deceived by false prophets and false anointed ones making up fake miracles and pretend wonders. The evidence is abundant that the vast majority of Christians put faith in men and are being similarly misled. But saying we are not the only ones is hardly a cause for boasting.
What about the Great Tribulation?
This has not been an exhaustive study of this topic. Nevertheless, our main point was to establish what generation Jesus referred to at Matthew 24:34, and between the two articles, we have accomplished that.
While the conclusion may seem clear at this point, there are still two issues which we need to harmonize with the rest of the account.
- Matthew 24:21 speaks of a “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now…nor will occur again.”
- Matthew 24:22 foretells that the days will be cut short on account of the chosen ones.
What is the great tribulation and how and when are, or were, the days to be cut short? We will attempt to tackle those questions in the next article titled, This Generation – Tying Up Loose Ends.
_________________________________________
Appendix A
In the first century Roman Empire, long distance communication was difficult and fraught with danger. Couriers could take weeks or even months to deliver important governmental communiques. Given that situation, one can see that the physical presence of a ruler would be of great significance. When the king visited some area of his domain, things got done. Thus the presence of the king had an important subtext lost to the modern world.
From New Testament Words by William Barclay, p. 223
“Further, one of the commonest things is that provinces dated a new era from the parousia of the emperor. Cos dated a new era from the parousia of Gaius Caesar in A.D. 4, as did Greece from the parousia of Hadrian in A.D. 24. A new section of time emerged with the coming of the king.
Another common practice was to strike new coins to commemorate the visitation of the king. Hadrian’s travels can be followed by the coins which were struck to commemorate his visits. When Nero visited Corinth coins were struck to commemorate his adventus, advent, which is the Latin equivalent of the Greek parousia. It was as if with the coming of the king a new set of values had emerged.
Parousia is sometimes used of the ‘invasion’ of a province by a general. It is so used of the invasion of Asia by Mithradates. It describes the entrance on the scene by a new and conquering power.”
Archived Comments
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Comment by on 2015-10-15 20:55:02
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1921_mauro_seventyweeks.pdf
The link between Daniel and the destruction of Jerusalem in the Olivet discourse explained by Philip Mauro. Let the reader use discernment, as stated by our Lord Jesus. One of the errors is to assume that Michael is Jesus, a view also held to this day by the Seventh Day Adventists, originating with that famous auto-didact William Miller.
Comment by Buster on 2015-10-15 21:15:23
Great review, every time I reread Matthew 24 and Acts 1 , I just laugh to my self and say why, or man Why, does the Organization not learn, I hope you have seen the new Secret weapon video on Jw broadcast about elders being the secret weapon, as they use the anti type of seven Shepherd's and 8 leaders of men, and they apply that to the elders, of course they mention when the Assyrians attack us in the future ( aka the great tribulation ) we have to listen to the elders, of course they we all know that famous/ or infamous watchtower article about Obeying no matter what.
No I won't, I say that with all confidence, if the organization can't get this whole generation thing right ( and let's be honest they made the lie/truth very interchangeable on thistopic, all towards lies) and they are applying a incident in the Hebrew scriptures and having another fulfillment later in the future, why???? Cause they can say whatever and we just have to Obey. Overlapping Generations and beyond, Nope not in this lifetime for me at least.
Love to all from BusterReply by katrina on 2015-10-16 07:00:40
What a joy to read your articles, this one is so helpful will be c/p and sending links of to those I know will appreciate.
Thank you, can't wait for the next one.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 07:31:04
Thank you so much.
Comment by Ash on 2015-10-16 05:50:57
I'm not sure if this is appropriate channel to raise problems with the site.
I can't read the comments from my mobile phone without a huge orange reply button blocking some of the text.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 07:36:04
I appreciate knowing that. Our site has been experiencing outages caused by memory constraints. On Monday the site was down for a good part of the day. The host company told me that the comment plugin we had been using was the culprit, though why after weeks of behaving itself it was using up so many system resources I do not know. However, when I shut it down, I suddenly got lots of spam comments, so it might be that our site was being overloaded by spam bots. (Sounds like something out of Doctor Who, doesn't it?) In any case, I'm going to turn it back on provisionally. Sorry for the inconvenience, but we're currently taking steps to avoid such things in the future.
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2015-10-16 09:23:49
"No such provision has been made for Christians facing the end of the worldwide system of things which comes on the heels of Jesus’ return. Perhaps this is because our escape is out of our hands."
Maybe Revelation 3:10, Revelation 7:1-3?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 10:17:35
Exactly, GodsWordIsTruth. Thanks for including those.
Comment by Deborah on 2015-10-16 11:24:59
Meleti,
Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (nasb caps)
You do not believe the "sign" twice referred to in this same dialogue is not the same sign? In other words, you do not believe that the "sign" in verse 30 is the answer to the question posed in verse three?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 12:29:48
Deborah,
If you read the article, you'll find the answer to your question clearly stated.Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-16 12:59:23
Meleti,
"If you read the article, you’ll find the answer to your question clearly stated."
Just asking.
I was hoping for something like: "No, I do not believe they refer to the same sign and here's why..."
No problem.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 15:07:34
But Deborah, you can see from the article I spent so much time writing that I do believe the sign of Christ's presence is fulfilled by the events of verse 30. And I believe that "all these things" is fulfilled by verses 15 thru 20. I spend time in the article explaining why I believe that. So why are you asking me a question which the article has already answered?
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-16 15:43:40
Meleti,
You wrote, "Jesus was asked for a sign by his disciples while they were on the Mount of Olives. There are only about seven verses in Matthew 24 that actually answer that question directly by providing signs."
There is only ONE verse where Jesus directly states what the sign is, verse 30. To believe the seven verses you refer to are the sign is inserting an assumption not supported by Christ's words. If he had meant the seven verses you refer to were the sign he would have said so but he did not.
We must allow Jesus to explain himself.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 16:11:45
I understand now. You feel that we can't count something like the "disgusting thing" or the darkened sun as signs, because Jesus didn't explicitly call them that.
I disagree.
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-16 17:09:28
Meleti,
"I understand now. You feel that we can’t count something like the “disgusting thing” or the darkened sun as signs, because Jesus didn’t explicitly call them that.
I disagree."
This is the reason so many have gone "here and there", eventually ending up nowhere. We must let Jesus explain himself otherwise we find ourselves in a thicket. You believe one way, others believe another. Who is right? Who is wrong? Truly it becomes a joke with people riding a merry-go-round.
Why not take the humble approach and let the Son of God speak for himself.
Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (nasb caps)
NOTE: Verse 30- "And THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,..."
The sun will be darkened etc., but IT IS AFTER THESE EVENTS that THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN will appear.
Jesus DOES NOT INCLUDE THE DARKENING OF THE SUN with the sign.
"And THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,..." The "sign" occurs AFTER the darkening of the sun.
This is the natural reading absent human conjecture.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 17:46:08
"We must allow Jesus to explain himself." YOUR WORDS!
““Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”” (Lu 21:25-28)
Let this be an end to it.Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-16 19:14:56
Meleti,
You apparently believe Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are like transparencies which can be placed one over the other, is that correct? I do not.
Luke 21 does not ask for a sign of Jesus' Presence as Matthew 24 does.
Luke 21 does not warn that an immediate departure is required as Matthew 24 does.
Luke 21 does not speak of a great tribulation that has never occurred nor will occur again as Matthew 24 does.
For this, and other reasons, it can be safely said that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 apply to different time periods.
Luke 21- the first century when there was time to flee.
Matthew 24- the last century when the time to flee will be limited.
Do you believe the writing of each Gospel was directed by God? I do. In that case each significant difference must have a purpose decided by God himself.
Luke 21 does NOT have a sign of Jesus Presence. It does ask for one! Read it again.
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-16 19:22:05
That should read: "It does NOT ask for one!"
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 19:45:51
Your opinion is that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are prophecies that apply to different time periods. However, you cannot prove this, so we are left with an opinion. I've asked you before for proof of your beliefs, such as my previous request for scriptural proof of your belief that there is an earthly hope held out to Christians, but you have always responded with opinions. I acknowledge that you have a right to your opinions, but the purpose of this forum is to deepen our knowledge of Bible truths, not express opinions as doctrines. We have left that behind with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I would ask you now to respect this principle of the site.
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-16 20:05:07
Meleti,
"Your opinion is that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are prophecies that apply to different time periods. However, you cannot prove this, so we are left with an opinion. I’ve asked you before for proof of your beliefs, such as my previous request for scriptural proof of your belief that there is an earthly hope held out to Christians, but you have always responded with opinions. I acknowledge that you have a right to your opinions, but the purpose of this forum is to deepen our knowledge of Bible truths, not express opinions as doctrines. We have left that behind with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I would ask you now to respect this principle of the site."
.
My goodness, Meleti, when have I claimed to be declaring doctrine? You state your opinion, I state mine.
Can you prove your beliefs? No. We both state opinion.
You wrote, " I would ask you now to respect this principle of the site."
How have I disrespected the principle of this site?
Truly, please, show me how I have done so!
Deborah
.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 23:07:29
I misspoke, or miswrote actually. I shouldn't have used the word doctrine. Too strong a word. My apologies. We all take a verbal misstep from time to time.
You state however that I cannot prove my beliefs. If that is the case, then neither can anyone else and this site is a colossal waste of time. I do not believe that. I believe that the Bible can be used to prove the truth. If what one believes is true, then the Bible can be used to show that. If what one believes is false, then the Bible can be used to reveal that falsehood. (He 4:12, 13; 2Ti 3:16, 17)
For example, were I to say that the parallel accounts at Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 apply to different time periods, I would have to present evidence to show how Christ has come as the son of Man in the clouds on three separate occasions. If I cannot, then I’m just spouting my personal opinion and I would recommend to everyone to ignore me.
In a similar way, were I to uphold the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses that the majority of Christians have an earthly hope as God's friends, I would have to present scriptures that anyone could read to prove my point. Failing that, I'm just speaking into the wind.
Now I do acknowledge that many people will readily accept the opinions of men on important issues like salvation. They have the right to do so. They also have the unavoidable obligation of living with the consequences of that decision.
I have seen how people have altered their life course based on beliefs that originate not from God's word, but from the opinion of men. I have fallen prey to that trap myself, but no more.
I can respect, even be influenced by the opinion of another on matters that relate that are derived from experience. For example, I have a personal trainer whose opinion I value because of the years of experience and training on which it is based.
However, when it comes to God’s word, when it comes to issues of salvation, the only “opinion” I value is God’s.
I believe that if I have a belief, I must be able to show it from Scripture in a way that allows others to see the belief is based on God's word. Then they will be able to put faith in God, not in me. If I cannot do that, if I’m only stating what I believe, then I fear I’m treading on dangerous ground, for I might influence someone else to believe the same and if what I believe is not true—which it almost surely will be since I cannot support it from Scripture—then I bear some responsibility for the consequences.
Even as moderator of this site, if I allow opinions to go unchallenged, then I may bear some responsibility for others being misled by providing the means for falsehood to be spread.
I hope this clear up my position for you.
Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-18 10:24:49
Meleti,
I am in general agreement with your post above.
However, brother, I am not "spreading falsehood" by sharing scriptural research on a discussion forum. I am stating what I believe nothing more.
Have no fear brother no one will change their thinking on the well entrenched belief that Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 are triplets- it would be like saying the sun does not rise in the east- people immediately turn away from such "nonsense".
Of course, you are absolutely right, all questions regarding this point of view MUST be answered and proved both by scripture and history itself. But even so, there is another requirement that cannot be disregarded and that is that to be accepted new views on scripture must be presented by an authoritative figure. This is human nature.
You wrote: "Even as moderator of this site, if I allow opinions to go unchallenged, then I may bear some responsibility for others being misled by providing the means for falsehood to be spread."
This is reasonable but please remember you yourself have admitted to changing a position you expounded upon on this very site. Should you then be viewed as "spreading falsehood"? How many, having read your former opinion, may still be running with it today because they have moved on to other sites and missed your updated opinion?
This is not a church, it is not a God inspired site, neither does it claim to be. People have opinions and research, people can be wrong, you can be wrong, I can be wrong.
I have nothing more to say except to repeat the advice I gave you once- beware of high praise, beware of people who seek leaders to lean on. There is greater spiritual risk in being overly praised than there is in being criticized or disagreed with.
I too apologize if my posts on this page brought distress to you or anyone here.
Peace to you,
Deborah
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-18 11:04:51
>>people immediately turn away from such “nonsense”.
Oh, but if that were only true Deborah. The fact is people eat up such nonsense, which is why we have so many deviant Christian religions. (I use "deviant" without the sexual overtones usually associated with the word in modern-day parlance)
>> there is another requirement that cannot be disregarded and that is that to be accepted new views on scripture must be presented by an authoritative figure. This is human nature.
This is not a requirement, but another deviation. Our only authority figure must be the Christ. I acknowledge that it is "imperfect" human nature to want to reject God for a human king. (1Sa 8:19) I for one will not give in to that nature. Nor will the majority of those who visit this site. True followers of Christ do not accept anything because someone in authority tells them to. True followers are very weary of anything that smacks of human authority. Those who dare to speak with the voice of God risk his wrath. (Acts 12:22, 23)
So by all means, share your research with us. But do it as the Levites of Nehemiah's day did.
"And they continued reading aloud from the book, from the Law of the true God, clearly explaining it and putting meaning into it; so they helped the people to understand what was being read." (Ne 8:8)Reply by Deborah on 2015-10-18 12:13:41
Meleti,
"So by all means, share your research with us. But do it as the Levites of Nehemiah’s day did. “And they continued reading aloud from the book, from the Law of the true God, clearly explaining it and putting meaning into it; so they helped the people to understand what was being read.” (Ne 8:8)"
Be careful what you wish for. ;)
Even so, my heart tells me I could provide scriptural and historical backup to the nth degree and it would not matter.
Thanks for posting this reply and yesterday's as well.
Peace.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-18 12:28:28
>>Even so, my heart tells me I could provide scriptural and historical backup to the nth degree and it would not matter.
Well, some would be nice.
Reply by Willy on 2015-10-17 10:34:40
Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the Earth
Comment by peely on 2015-10-16 18:22:34
Pearl may respond to your comment, she doesn’t know I posted her article, which I am wondering just why the link was removed before posting my “moderated” comment. If this site is “striving for unbiased research” then I ask, why was it removed and one earlier link in the string of comments was allowed to remain?
At any point, you have been tolerant in the past by allowing me to link articles, which I have very much appreciated, but It seems a bit thought provoking as to why this one was removed when I consider your comment.
If this “generation” concerns Christ’s brothers, those of the “144,000”, then Christ’s words are meant for each one over the years, as they face their own battles; information they need to do so; but in this time of the end the fulfillment of his words addresses the most vital harvesting work, as each one chooses to remain in “Babylon” or follow Christ. Do you not hear the call already going out from the four winds, meleti? Can you not see how people are waking up to Christ and leaving the organization? The battle described in Revelation is in progress. As individuals hold on to the “thousand year” teaching by the Watchtower, as well as the “great tribulation” teaching it is true as your article says, “ Jesus foretells—and his words cannot fail to come true—that we’ll be saying, “Nah, not now. This couldn’t be the time,” when Boom! He shows up.“
Why would it be so outrageous for Christ to give these words of guidance to each one; especially, allowing them to discern through Holy Spirit the understanding of the time period of the end? This is vital for them to know and recognize during the harvest. Rev 11:3; Zech 4:11-14 Some choose not to through the stubbornness of their own hearts. Jer 13:10 His “angels” from the four corners of the earth are his faithful chosen ones, the remnant; messenger priests sent by Christ, giving true knowledge to all who will listen. Rev 18:4;John 13:16; Zech 8:23; Mal 2:7;
Do you not see the battle raging as the organization full of anointed ones must choose whose covenant they prefer? Jer 11:6-8; Rev 12:4; Matt 24:22
We are in the threshing period, the tribulation, the sifting. Think of your own predicament. You see light, yet where do you stand with the organization? How easy is it to walk away unscathed?
As you said in your own previous article on the Generation, “So Jesus’ reassuring promise found at Mt. 24:34 isn’t there to help us figure out how long the Last Days will be. It is there to get us through the Great Tribulation.”
There you go.
Perhaps Pearl will happen to address your comments more thoroughly.
peely
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 19:50:12
I'm sorry. I didn't know that what you posted was someone else's article. For copyright reasons alone, I have now removed it. I misunderstood. I thought Pearl was your real name and Peely your alias. If I have allowed other articles to remain, it was an oversight. If you would kindly point me to them, I will remove them as well.
Reply by peely on 2015-10-17 10:30:12
I’m confused, Meleti. It’s not clear where the copyrights apply and don’t apply. I see book references as well as links to personally written articles referenced by others who have commented, that are not removed.
Are you saying we should remove all links?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-17 11:05:12
If you are aware of a copyright infringement, please let me know. Other than that, you need not be concerned.
Reply by Pearl Doxsey on 2015-10-16 22:45:34
I came by, due to tracing my traffic sources, in order to view the current thoughts being expressed on the various forums. I would be happy to contribute to the unbiased research which this site supports. The spine of my comment to follow, will be to offer scriptures which I feel may contribute to an overall Biblical view of this particular subject.
I am not a litigious person, but if you are more comfortable with a direct post by the author, rather than a link being posted by an appreciative reader, I am happy to oblige.
I am curious as to the scriptures which convince those who believe that the "generation" spoken of by Christ was limited to first century Jews.
For those interested and unbiased, here are some scriptures which seem to point to an alternative definition of the term.
Here is the viewpoint I expressed at the removed link...
- - - - - - -
When "generation" is referred to at Matt.24:34, it does not speak of a time, it speaks of a result.
Please let me explain.
In other words, the Greek of "generation" is actually speaking of something which spirit generates, or creates.
The result of that action, is what is generated, created.
The "generation",
are all those who are born, or generated, from spirit.
There can be a righteous generation (Ps.112:2; 14:5), born of God's spirit (1Pet.1:23; John 1:13; 1John 5:18), with Him as Father (Eph.5:1; Matt.5:48; Phil.2:15);
or a crooked and twisted generation (Deut.32:5; Acts 2:40; Matt.12:39), born of Satan's spirit (Eph.2:2; 1John 3:12; Rev.16:13; 1Tim.4:1), with him as father (John 8:44; Isa.27:1 -lit. "coiling" = "'crooked and twisted' serpent").
Each of these "generations",
are the "seed" which come forth from the spirit of each "father".
They have existed from the beginning (1John 3:12; Heb.11:4), and will exist until the all prophecy concerning them, is fulfilled (Gen.3:15; Jer.33:17-18; Rev.5:10; Heb.13:15; Matt.24:34).
And so,
by stating that this generation
(speaking of a particular created group -John 6:63; 5:21; 2Cor.3:6; 5:17; 1Cor.15:45; Rom.8:14)
will not pass away until all things occur;
Jesus was letting us know, that all things prophesied
about all Christ's Called Ones, both faithful "wheat" and unfaithful "weeds", will happen, before they pass away (Dan.12:7; 1Cor.15:24).
He also tells the "wheat", that he will be with them, throughout time, up until the end (Matt.28:20; 18:20). This also helps us to see, that if he is with each of them throughout time, up until the end, they exist throughout the years, up until the end. Therefore, the meaning of this righteous generation, is not about a group of contemporaries limited by a literal lifetime, but about a group known by their righteousness.
Jesus tells us Matt.24:34, because most of the prophecies about this group, will be undergoing complete fulfillment, without being so recognized.
Why?
Because,
but for a few who find the road of truth to life (Luke 13:23,24; Matt.7:14); the "entire inhabited earth" (Rev.12:9), will be deceived by Satan's counterfeit "signs and portents" (2Thess.2:9,10) that lead to idolatry (Rev.13:8). Satan will fabricate a counterfeit fulfillment of prophecy, using his only resource.... his dominion over the physical world around us (1John 5:19). Jesus does not want his Called Ones to be misled by the agents of Satanic deception
(Matt.24:24,25; 2Pet.3:17; Rev.12:15; 16:13; 2Cor11:3,4,20,13; Rev.2:20; Luke 21:36)
(1Tim.6:20,21; 2Tim.1:13,14; 2Cor.10:5).
Instead of this "generation" "overlapping" during the span of the last 100 years;
in truth, they have been overlapping since the first century.
The WT is so absorbed by their own importance, everything is interpreted from the narrow perspective of the period of their own existence.
Note what Jesus said in the very next verse (Matt.24:35)...
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away."
This is opened more by Matt.5:18...
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved."
(Jer.1:12,11,13,14,15,16,17,18; Rev.10:11)
"Heaven and earth" are going to pass away.
2Pet.3:10-13 reads;
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."
Of course, this destruction is not literal, but according to verse 7;
"By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
(Jer.23:29; 5:14; Rev.11:5; Matt.10:20; Jer.1:9; Hosea 6:5)
Also, the "new heavens and new earth" are spoken of where "righteousness dwells". Such righteousness is not found in the literal heavens and earth, but in the hearts of men.
So since all the "ungodly" (Called Ones who proved to be wicked slaves)
are to pass away; how will this passing away be recognized?
Remember....this refers exactly to what Jesus said,
"This generation will by no means pass away, until all things occur."
Yes...the "wheat" and "weeds" will not receive their punishment or reward,
until all things prophesied, the Great Tribulation and Armageddon included, are completed.
Jesus tells us this, because these Great spiritual events,
will go unrecognized by those "asleep" (Rev.3:2,3; Matt.24:43; 1Thess.5:2,4; 2Pet.3:10; Rev.16:15).
These events will be declared as already fulfilled, by false apostles, even before the genuine end of the ungodly, arrives (2Thess.2:1,2,3; Dan.7:25).
I hope this helps to eradicate the lies we learned from the WT,
about "generation", as well as how the things written will actually be fulfilled among these two "generations".
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-16 23:12:08
Hi Pearl,
>>I am curious as to the scriptures which convince those who believe that the "generation" spoken of by Christ was limited to first century Jews.
Here's the link that answers your question: http://meletivivlon.com/2015/09/19/this-generation-a-fresh-look/
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-17 00:17:31
You state that a generation "does not speak of a time, it speaks of a result." Yet, further on you show that time is involved because all these things must occur before the generation passes away. This is a contradiction which you fail to resolve. You also include elements in "all these things" (such as the wheat and weeds) which are not part of the context of Matthew 24, but fail to show Scriptural support for including them. You also state that "the Greek of “generation” is actually speaking of something which spirit generates, or creates." Sometimes yes and often no. It has several meaning and the scriptures you site prove that, but you ignore all but the meaning that suits your interpretation. This is eisegesis and it has not validity here. Additionally, and this is the biggest hole in your arguments, you fail to show how either of the two generations you speak of pass away before all these things occur. The thing is if we accept your two millennia-spanning generations, then you have to acknowledge that they both survive until after the 1,000 years have ended, which is way outside of all the things Jesus was referring to when speaking to his disciples.
Reply by Pearl Doxsey on 2015-10-17 17:27:55
I ask that you use this reply, rather than the others, because I added an important scripture to this post. My prayers are with you, and with all those now being sifted, during this great tribulation (Matt.12:37).
I would like to respond to your comments...
"further on you show that time is involved because all these things must occur before the generation passes away."
Does not every occurrence require time? The passing of time alone does not result in discernment.
To be more precise about what the scriptures (and I) assert, is that the generation will not pass away, until all things occur.
This means that the power of the holy ones will not disappear, until all things prophesied about them, are fulfilled. Although this sequence, naturally occurs in the context of time, we learn more about Matt.24:34 if we uncover what has been prophesied about them that will be fulfilled before their demise. If we are able to recognize that fulfillment and demise, we certainly are in a better position to recognize the "sign" of Christ's parousia, and when it is being fulfilled.
Again... that "timing" is not given as a date, but as a situation and sequence of events. Therefore, they are recognized, not by a timepiece, but by events, or, causes and subsequent results, regardless of the date (Dan.12:8).
Jesus described the timing as a "season".
Accordingly, it would be recognize by a sequence of events (Matt.24:32-33). I made this point, because Jesus himself advises this key to discernment is recognizing cause and effect as it unfolds. Therefore, those are the things I have emphasized when teaching this subject. I don't discern the contradiction you refer to. Time can be involved when *conditions arrive, or when prophecy is *fulfilled, without the central teaching point of Christ's words, as being about a calendar or clock. I did not say that all element of time stands still (absurd), but rather, that if we focus on the details of cause and effect, conditions and circumstances which Jesus described in Matt.24:34, we are better enabled to discern the lesson, his presence, as well as the conclusion of the age (Dan.12:6).
The conclusion of the age is described in many parables and prophecies. Since they all are true descriptions of the same culmination, they belong together to created the whole. They all contribute to a full picture.
The "kingdom of the heavens" was also described in many parables and prophecies by Jesus (Matt.13). Though they all seem unrelated, are they? Is each parable and prophecy regarding a different kingdom? No. Each lesson contributes to a fuller understanding of the one kingdom.
To illustrate;
How well would we recognize a person we never met, if we were only told their hair color? If their height were also provided, that would help. If eye color and weight were added, even better. What if clothing and location were added? And finally, if we were told what activity they were engaged in, and what their circumstances were, we may very well recognize them at first glance.
The two generations (righteous, and wicked) which Jesus refers to, are not missing from the rest of the Bible.
If we believed that the only valid clue to our missing person was their eye color, we would not do well recognizing them in a crowd. We must combine all our available information if we hope to visualize fully. If we hope to "discern the hour", we too must not compartmentalize all the prophecies pertaining to it.
Do you not recognize the "wheat" as righteous, and the "weeds" as rejected?
Do you not recognize that just as the "generation" exists until the end, the wheat and weeds are present at the end? (Matt.13:30; Matt.13:39; Matt.24:3; Matt.24:34)
Why do you believe that the "generation" given relevant importance by Jesus, must be unrelated to their contemporary "wheat" and "weeds", which are obviously also the central figures of end-time prophecy? What scripture convinces you, that these two groups are unrelated?
Jesus himself tells us, that the wheat are sons of the kingdom (Ps.14:5; Matt.13:43; Rom.8:17; Ps.37:29), and the weeds are sons of the wicked one (Matt.13:38; Matt.13:40; Matt.23:33; Matt.13:42; 2Pet.3:7)... the "generation", or offshoot of the devil. That "generation" will keep seeking to see the sign we discuss, but will not be enabled (Luke11:29). While speaking of the wheat and weeds, Jesus also spoke of those who fail to discern the meaning of the signs and symbols Jesus used (Matt.13:14; Matt.13:11).
Who, besides these two groups ("wheat" and "weeds"), do you believe the end-time "generation" consists of? (Please provide a scripture.)
Jesus claimed that there are those who are graced with understanding all his prophecies and parables (Matt.13:11; Dan.12:10; Dan.12:3; Matt.13:43; Phil.2:15; Rev.1:20). Would they not then be enabled to integrate them as they relate to one another.... just as the pieces of a puzzle contribute to a clear, full, and detailed image?
Just as you refer to previously written material to back up your assertions, I also have written extensively about these things, and like you, cannot repeat everything each time I touch upon a related subject. Much has been written about the "wheat" and "weeds", and how this parable relates to the rest of the conclusion of the age, not only by me, but by others. If interested, feel free to use the search box at my Blog.
I would be interested in having the scriptures that indicate that "generation" is "often" used in the Bible, to define something other than what is generated.
You stated;
"Additionally, and this is the biggest hole in your arguments, you fail to show how either of the two generations you speak of pass away before all these things occur."
Again, that may seem to be equal to what i said, but it is not.
The generation will N O T pass away, UNTIL all things are DONE occurring (Matt.24:34). You are stating the opposite.
They will exist, until all prophecy about them, is fulfilled.
Yet the presence of the faithful, goes largely unrecognized (Matt.25:37-29,44; Heb.13:2; 12:22)
If you discern the "generation" passing away (and their "power, coming to nothing" Dan.12:7 B; Luke 21:24; Rev.13:7; 11:7; Dan.7:25; Dan.8:24) (AND you have not discerned the genuine fulfillment of what was prophesied about them), then you failed to discern the last hour, Christ's inspection, or the full accomplishment of God's requirements for the end to arrive (Ps.110:1-2).
Lastly, you say;
"The thing is if we accept your two millennia-spanning generations, then you have to acknowledge that they both survive until after the 1,000 years have ended, which is way outside of all the things Jesus was referring to when speaking to his disciples."
I don't know what scriptures guide you to believe that the wicked and righteous do not exist after the end of the "thousand years",
but perhaps you can contemplate Rev.20:7-9, as follows;
"7 When the thousand years **are over**, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth **and surrounded the camp of God’s people**, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-18 00:42:52
To Pearl Doxsey: I have responded to your assertions by opening a topic on Discuss the Truth. (Click here to see it.)
Reply by Alex Rover on 2015-10-19 03:52:25
Knowing what is coming in the next article, I think that we should hold off a bit on jumping to strong pronunciations. The picture is not quite complete without it, although Meleti is alluding to it in his conclusion. Splitting articles in series can have that unintended consequence sometimes. So I strongly suggest we all wait a little until the next article is written, and hopefully Meleti will publish the next one soon :) :)
Reply by Joshua1992 on 2015-10-24 03:18:53
This is a wonderful discussion. Thanks so much for so much enjoyment. However, it is very important that you realize that Acts 1 is a reference to Armageddon, which is not a specific time in the Bible, whereas the second coming definitely is. You state:
"About a month after Jesus was questioned about “all these things” and his presence, he was asked a related question.
“So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”” (Ac 1:6)
His answer seems to contradict his earlier words at Mt 24:32, 33.
“He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.” (Ac 1:7)
How could he tell them in one place to discern the season of his return, even to the point of measuring it within the span of a generation, while just over a month later he tells them that they have no right to know such times and seasons? Since our truthful and loving Lord would not do such a thing, we have to look to ourselves. Perhaps our desire to know what we have no right to know is misleading us. (2Pe 3:5)"
There is no contradiction here, but rather specifics. The key point here is that the second coming is linked with cleansing the heavens and removing Satan, who is cast down to the earth. That's one event. But Satan is not immediately abyssed. The kingdom set up in heaven is not set up in the earth just yet. Acts 1 is specifically about when the kingdom will be set up in the earth: "are you restoring the kingdom to Israel?" This is a question for what happens after Armageddon. The earthly kingdom is not set up until after Armageddon and Satan is abyssed. That is not the same event as when the second coming occurs. So it is very, very important not to get this confused.
Having noted that, the year of the second coming is definitely predicted in the Bible, but not Armageddon. Two separate things. When God sets up the kingdom in heaven at the second coming is not when he sets up the kingdom in the earth at Armageddon. The first event is a predictable year in the Bible, the second is one that is left to God's jurisdiction. In other words, we know the year of the second coming but we do not know the year of Armageddon. Armageddon and the kingdom coming to the earth is left up to God's jurisdiction. The second coming is a dated event.
But further addressing that, when the Bible says "nobody knows the day nor hour" it is being very specific. That is, the precise DAY and HOUR. This does not contradict that the year of the second coming has to fulfill several prophecies. So we can calculate the YEAR per the Bible, but not the DAY nor HOUR.
So there is no contradiction in regards to the generation, the second coming year, not knowing the day nor hour, and the kingdom coming to the earth being left to God's own jurisdiction. The Bible tells us when the second coming must take place, but not Armageddon. Acts 1 is not about the second coming, but about Armageddon. The second coming is about the kingdom being set up in heaven, Armageddon is about the kingdom being set up in the earth. The first event is dated, the second is not.
Thanks, so much, for this discussion.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-24 23:16:46
Actually Joshua, it isn't a discussion. What I'm seeing is a man reiterating his views after being challenged about the lack of scriptural support. I should state that the purpose of this comment feature is not to provide a soapbox for every Tom, Dick, and Mary with an opinion, but rather it is a provision for sincere researchers to dispense additional information, even contrary views, that are supported by Scripture. I will let this one through, but if you wish to continue commenting then you need to back up what you say with scriptural evidence. Believing in scripturally unfounded human speculation is what got us into this situation in the first place, and what has the establishment of this website. Such speculation is the status quo of the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses. We here have come to realize that it was a colossal waste of our time and much more than that. As a result, we really have little tolerance for it anymore. I hope that I'm not offending. That is not my purpose. I am merely stating things as they are. We will welcome your insights as long as they are backed up by Scripture, for in the end we do not want to learn from men but from God. I'm sure that you feel the same way.
Comment by Menrov on 2015-10-17 05:20:26
Good article. Much appreciated. I sometimes like to take a very simplistic approach. Or find simple comparisons when I try to understand a situation or statement.
If you would have lived at the time of Matth. 24. And were sitting with Jesus and other disciples on the mount. You heard the question being asked (not indicated whom from the disciples actually asked but apparently all were interested in that question). Then you heard the answer. And year hear all what is said (and written in chapter 24 and chapter 25 up to 26:3. It is actually one long answer. After that the answer is over and I presume (not explicitly written) they depart.
Now, I do not read anything they (disciples) did not understand or that they asked in more detail, like: Jesus, is all this relevant to us? h
If I would have been there, I would have assumed that His entire answer was relevant to me. Jesus gave absolutely no indication that certain parts were not relevant to them. Not did He given any indication that these things would reoccur again (say 2000 or more years later).
So, based on that, I still believe that HIs answer were relevant to his disciples. And yes, I can see that not all events mentioned were confirmed later by other writers. But (different topic, I know) if revelations were written before 66 AD, it is obvious John did not make any mention of the events described by Jesus. They had not all happened yet. That generation had not passed yet.
None of the NT writers talked about the events shortly before and during and after the siege of Jerusalem (66-70). However, the made reference to the events in their period (where appropriate) and sometimes referred back to the period when Jesus was on earth.
In line with Romans 15:4, things were written to help us to endure, not to confuse us, not to have fights (even wars) over. The words or answers from Jesus were to help his disciples, to support them so they could endure and receive their reward.
Anyway, that is how I see it. And for that reason, I believe the generation mentioned by Jesus was the generation the disciples were familiar with, could recognize and use to convince themselves things were to happen relatively soon. It was clear to them.
Comment by AR on 2015-10-17 06:55:10
Nicely explained Meleti, The two articles is simple and straightforward , jesus had talked about the destruction of the temple, the Jews when he was on trial, used that against him, also In the case of Stephen's Martydom-acts 6:8-14,the destruction of the temple was used against him. The messiah was suppose to rule from jerusalem so the people believed, so, how could this magnificent structure be destroyed, matt 24:1,2..Fair enough so they ask vrs 3, good question, probably we would of ask the same thing, these things Jesus said would take place as history testifies to, there are eyewitness to these events that would place,Vrs 4-28,historian Josephus makes mention of false messiahs and destruction of juresalem. Why does Jesus start with the words in Vrs 34, with 'truly....this Generation..' Because it was like he wanted them to take note,...it would happen as he said, and not get caught out!!
I was of the belief it was a dual prophesy for many decades with a start date of 1914...but it seems like we tried to trump Jesus by fixing a start date, and applying certain events to a different time period, which in all reality, it's difficult to prove and makes no sense, and wouldn't of confused the early Christians. I do appreciate this simple straightforward approach, to Jesus words at matt 24:34.
Comment by life2come on 2015-10-17 18:49:22
"are we there yet?" "we'll get there when we get there!". LOVE the analogy. Thanks!
Comment by markchristopher on 2015-10-18 11:22:08
It seems reasonable that there are two kinds of generation.I wicked seed and righteous seed.They have existed alongside each other from the fall of man.Each goes through their own tribulation.
I think trying to interpret Jesus words in Matthew 24 and even say the book of Revelation in a strict chronological order is problematic, but if we apply many of the events described to the life cycle or spiritual journey of each individual things seem to have relevance.
For example. The destruction of the temple at Jerusalem was literally an abandonment of worship which proved unsatisfactory.It was replaced with "people" who would cleanse themselves inwardly through Jesus Christ "an anointing" (true repentance).Jehovahs Witnesses who wake up and turn to Christ are going through a similar tribulation as first century christians went through and as generations of christians have gone through for the last 2000 years.That tribulation is recorded for all generations in Matthew 24.
Its clear that many including myself wakeup from a way of worship which for a time seems like true worship.Then ours eyes and hearts are opened and the world we once thought was a reality is a lie and is destroyed.Our friends and family ridicule us.We may be disfellowshipped and shunned as apostates, it may appear briefly that we have no place to go and our world has ended.But then we understand, we know that Jesus Christ has offered us an invitation to follow him.What do we do?
Also.What about all the previous generations of christians who have lived and died?How are they refined and sifted? Have they missed any form of tribulation?Is it only left to an unfortunate group at a time in the future?
IMeleti's article lists for us
4-8: Do not be misled by natural and man-made catastrophes.
9-13: Beware of false prophets and prepare for persecution.
16-21: Be ready to give up everything to flee.
23-26: Don’t be misled by false prophets with tales of Christ’s presence.
36-44: Be vigilant, for the day will come without warning.
45-51: Be faithful and wise, or suffer the consequences.
Could these apply to every generation from the first century until today in one way or another?Seems feasible to me.Reply by Father jack on 2015-10-18 11:50:37
Good points mark thanks
Comment by Leaving Quietly on 2015-10-18 11:46:08
Meleti, your article is interesting, and I appreciate the effort you put into it. It gives the distinct impression that "this generation" applies to the first century only. However, you wrote:
"Unlike first century Christians who had to take courageous and arduous action to be saved, our escape depends only on our endurance and patience as we wait for the time when Jesus sends forth his angels to gather up his chosen ones. (Lu 21:28; Mt 24:31)"
I couldn't help but notice you included Matt 24:31 here. How is it that "this generation" applies to the first century, but things that happen "immediately after" (Matt 24:29) is yet to come in the future, including gathering up his chosen ones? It would seem that the things that happen immediately after (signs in the heavens, followed by sign of the Son of man and the angels gathering the chosen ones) would have to happen immediately following the great tribulation, which appears to be included in "all these things." (Matt 24:33,34). How do you explain placing Matt 24:31 into our future, yet "this generation" only in the first century?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-18 12:02:02
A valid point and one which I intentionally left hanging at the end of the article with the promise to follow up in a subsequent post. :)
Comment by Anonymous on 2015-10-19 00:32:05
Great article, Meleti. I think there is only one "Great Tribulation" - the one that occurred when when the Romans besieged Jerusalem and finally destroyed it in 70 ce.
My reason for saying so is that Jesus described it as being the greatest tribulation since the founding of the world and of a magnitude that will not be repeated. That description means there can only be one, and so logically the expression "the Great Tribulation" must refer to the one event that happened in the first century and does not apply to Jesus' future coming.
Now I'm not saying that there wouldn't be tribulation when Jesus comes. What I'm saying is that the bible phrase "great tribulation" can only refer to the one event in the first century - there aren't 2 Great tribulations. So it is doctrinally wrong to refer to the hardships that will result from christ's coming as "the Great Tribulation".Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-19 08:41:26
I hope to write on this soon. One point though. Jesus didn't say, "for then there will be the great tribulation", but only "great tribulation". The definite article would tend to the idea of uniqueness, but he left it indefinite. Another thing that is worth doing is a word search on "tribulation" in the Greek Scripture to see how it was used from an first century point of view.
Reply by The Real Anonymous on 2015-10-19 10:17:36
A quick look at Strong's shows the word for tribulation can also be translated as trouble, distress or pressure. The translation as "pressure" is intriguing, since Strong's suggests this may be the primary meaning of it. By "pressure", it is meant that a person would be 'out of options' or 'confined' so that they were limited in the choices they could make, or that they were being pressured or compelled into making decisions certain ways. In that sense, the concept is similar to Gog of Magog having a hook in his jaw, being compelled to move and act. A way of looking at this is like a chess game, where one opponent forces the other to move by repeatedly putting the other person into "check" so they have not choice but to move as their opponent wishes, leading to their eventual defeat.
If we consider "great tribulation" (not THE great tribulation) as if it were "great TROUBLE" then "tribulation" is not so much an event as a situation or condition. To draw an analogy, great tribulation is not something you can 'count', but you could 'measure' or 'weigh' it.
The notion that this great tribulation was a once in a lifetime event, never to be repeated, has some issues. After all, during the flood of Noah's day, the entire world of mankind was wiped out, except eight people. Was the siege on Jerusalem in 70 AD really that much worse than the flood? Many millions of people in other parts of the world - mostly persons not especially on God's side - survived 70 AD, but no opponents of God survived the flood.
We must remember that the apostles did NOT ask for information about the far future. They asked what would be the immediate fate of the temple. That's what prompted their question in the first place. As for the 'sign of your presence' being a question about the far future, it is clear that they did not intend THAT as a question either. Otherwise, prior to Jesus' ascension, they would not have asked him if he were going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time. Since they had no expectation of his kingship starting in the distant future when they asked him about this, there is no justification for assuming that's what they thought, or asked out, on the night before he died, either.
That being so, it seems reasonable that the tribulation he spoke of referred to the distress Jerusalem endure before its destruction in 70 AD. In that context, the city in fact never DID have troubles that bad ever again.
Whether Jesus did or didn't imply some secondary, parallel event in modern times when he spoke this prophecy is a separate matter.
Reply by Menrov on 2015-10-19 10:19:38
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2347
Reply by BN on 2015-10-20 17:25:13
Great as in great crowd or ...? Since the word tribulation is derived from the word tribulum which means treshing; is there only a treshing of those in the first century? Sorry, cannot follow anybody down that road. The treshing / sifting in the end of age is greater as in number; many are sifted ... makes much more sence... A pressing, pressure on many... Can one not see that today? It's like earthquaces in our believes, in our lifes.. Matt 13:34.
Comment by stonedragon on 2015-10-19 13:48:51
Well Meleti I for one think you have cracked it!!
Well done.
This is no feint praise, but a worker deserves his wages and the least one can do, is to say thank you for providing the food. And I know that you will not allow the praise to go to your head as some have suggested in this thread that it would; because as you know, there are other matters where we don't see eye to eye, but praise should be given were it is due.
I really feel that you have cracked it, because for years a brother and I have struggled with Jesus' words here. Volumes have been written but they all for short. Over the last year or so, I had arrived at some of the conclusions you had, but had failed to put it all together as you seemed to have. That is why, I for one, accept your explanation as valid, or at the very least worthy of serious consideration - because I was already on the same wavelength and you seemed to have tuned in the frequency for me, so that I hear clearly now.
Your explanation meets the principle of Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is the best. You do away with the need for long winded and unsupported double prophesy jiggery-pokery of Watchtower and the emptiness of the Preterits explanation. Furthermore you do it, by letting the scripture interpret itself, especially by drawing on Acts 1:6, which is a clincher. I fail to see the point Deborah was making.
My only request is that for completeness, could you please supply the reference regarding the destruction of the Roman garrison, that was partly the fulfilment of 'wars and reports of war'.
Again, well done brother and keep up the good work. :-)
Comment by smoldering wick on 2015-10-22 00:13:30
Came a little late in the discussion but glad to see we're relatively all on the same page :)
Comment by Nightingale on 2015-10-22 10:22:09
If Matthew 24:32-34 really is about the 1st century, don't we have a problem with verse 33, "He is near at the doors". How was Jesus near at the doors back then?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-22 11:35:52
A good question, Nightingale.
First of all, we have to acknowledge that Jesus doesn't say that "when you see all these things, know that I am near at the doors." He uses the third person. Either he is referring to himself in the third person as he does when using the phrase "son of Man" (Mt 24:27, 30, 36, 39, 44) or he's speaking of someone else. If he's referring to himself, then it is interesting that he doesn't use the phrase "son of Man". He doesn't say, "when you see all these things, know that the Son of man is near at the doors."
The designation, "Son of man", is always in connection with the presence of Christ in the 24th chapter of Matthew. The arrival of the Son of man is unexpected. It is like lightning (vs 31) which cannot be predicted by times and seasons. The Son of man comes like a thief at a time we will think it not to be (vs 36, 42, 44). All of this contradicts the idea of foreknowing which verses 32-34 convey. Therefore, if the "he" in verse 33 is Jesus, it must be Jesus in another capacity, separate from his parousia as the Son of man. However, I can think of no Scriptural support for this idea, so I favor another which does fit with Scripture and preserves the harmony of our findings to this point.
In verse 15, Jesus refers to "the disgusting thing as spoken of through Daniel the prophet." We have seen a lot of evidence that the generation (vs 34) refers to the first century wicked generation that experienced all the things Jesus foretold would come upon them including the destruction detailed in Mt 24:15-22. Since that is linked to Daniel's prophecy, perhaps the identity of the "he" Jesus if referring to can also be gleaned from Daniel's words.
“. . .“And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”” (Da 9:26, 27)
"A leader" who will destroy the city and "the one" causing desolation. Could this be the "he" Jesus is referring to? Since Jesus makes direct reference to this prophecy, the context supports the idea that the "he who is near at the doors" is not the Son of man whose presence is thief-like (vs 43), sudden like the lightning that flashes forth (vs 31), and utterly unpredictable (vs 44). Rather, this "he" is someone whose approach can be anticipated like the approach of summer (vs 32). Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude the Jesus is referring to the Leader what brings destruction, the one referred to in Daniel's prophesy. ("Let the reader use discernment.")Reply by Nightingale on 2015-10-22 11:54:56
Thanks for the reply. Yes, that is one possibility, it might solve the problem. We have always automatically thought that the "he" is Jesus in that verse but maybe that is not the case.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-22 12:38:13
Me too. For many years, I've been influenced by preconceptions, often originating from my JW roots, which have left me scratching my head as I've tried to make the scriptures harmonize with my own understanding. It's not an easy mindset to overcome.
Reply by Skye on 2015-10-22 19:20:30
Meleti, I was looking at Matthew 24:33 at different translations, and please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that verse 33 is either "he" (Son of Man) or "it" - the coming event. Also in Luke 21:29,30,31 "He told them this parable: Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. Even so when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near." This would be referring to the second coming, would it not?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-22 23:38:14
The phrase "Kingdom of God" appears 32 times in Luke. That's as many times as it does in all the other books of the Christian Scriptures combined. Looking at its use in the Bible, we see that it is not synonymous with the second coming of Christ. The second coming is a single event never to be repeated. The Kingdom of God is not a single event. It is true that Jesus followers viewed it that way, which explains their question at Acts 1:6. However, Jesus repeatedly instructed them differently.
Go do the WT Library and enter "Kingdom of God" (with quotes) and scan through all the references. It become evident that the kingdom of god is more than a kingdom as we view it. It is more than a government as Jehovah's Witnesses paint it. It is as much a state of mind as it is a literal government.
“. . .But on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them and said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, 21 neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in YOUR midst.”” (Lu 17:20, 21)
“But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.” (Mt 12:28)
“The appointed time has been fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near. Be repentant, YOU people, and have faith in the good news.” (Mr 1:15)
“At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” (Mr 12:34) The young ruler's heart condition was bringing the kingdom near to him.
“Also, wherever YOU enter into a city and they receive YOU, eat the things set before YOU, 9 and cure the sick ones in it, and go on telling them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to YOU.’" (Lu 10:8, 9) “But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.” (Lu 11:20) The kingdom of God had already overtaken Jesus listeners.
With this in mind, we can look at Luke 21:29-31 in its context. After delivering the assurance of the generation in the next verses (Luke 21:32-33) Jesus says:
“But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you 35 as a snare. For it will come upon all those dwelling on the face of the whole earth. 36 Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.” (Lu 21:34-36)
He is not talking to disciples who will not come into existence for 2,000 years. His words are directed at his listeners, the majority of whom will face the tribulation coming upon the generation in the first century. By keeping awake and maintaining integrity, those ones would escape "all these things" (there's that phrase again) and 'stand before the Son of man.' There integrity during the time of test would be their opportunity to hold fast to the hope of the kingdom of God.
To us today, the same applies. We may not live to see the arrival of Jesus as predicted in Mt 24:30, but by staying awake and maintaining our integrity, we too can enter into the Kingdom of God.Reply by Skye on 2015-10-23 05:44:26
Meleti, You say, "It is more than a government as Jehovah's Witnesses paint it. It is as much a state of mind as it is a literal government."
My reply to that would be - the Kingdom is present now in the sense that we are being instructed about the coming Kingdom through the teachings of Jesus Christ concerning his coming Kingdom. We are therefore responding to the Good News of the Kingdom as Jesus taught. We are learning about the Kingdom and developing the qualities necessary in order to qualify as rulers with Jesus. We are preaching the Good News of the Kingdom as commanded by Jesus. We are working towards the coming Kingdom of God.
As we know, the Kingdom of God is yet future and will be established when Jesus returns and finally world peace will be established.
With regard to Luke 17:20,21 As many Bible commentaries teach, as well as JWs, this could possibly mean that Jesus, as King of the Kingdom, was present there "among" them. Or he could be saying that when the Kingdom arrives it will be seen everywhere (verse 24). And this would harmonise with the following verses relating to his (Jesus) second coming.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-23 07:52:52
Hi Skye,
You raise some good points. However, there is a flaw in the reasoning that equates the "Kingdom of God" with the "Second Coming" of the Christ.
I think this is a significant issue and so will endeavor to address it in an article.
Thank you for bringing this subject to the fore.
Meleti
Comment by Nightingale on 2015-10-22 14:53:18
I wonder if we could totally disconnect Matthew 24:29 from 24:21 and instead connect it with the anguish of nations of Luke 21:25. This anguish would be the tribulation of Matthew 24:29. Or could we connect Matthew 24:29 to verses 27 and 28 that are about the coming of Christ? That coming will cause "tribulation" to many. Just a thought...
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Comment by Jo Joel on 2019-02-23 02:31:05
Has it occurred to anyone, that when Jesus is answering the same question the second time about the time of the end, he does not mention “the day or the hour”, which at that time as resurrected and glorified heavenly king would probably already know, but is telling those asking him: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons…”, meaning that the answer only applied to them asking him at that particular time and not to his anointed brothers in the future?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-02-25 12:20:00
That's one way of looking at it, but if his words are restricted in that way, we'd need some indication of an override clause. Given the track record of this "anointed brothers" I would say the evidence does not support your conclusion.