“Do You Love Me More Than These?”

Comment by PoetryofProvidence on 2017-07-23 19:49:59

Just reread oh and again (twice this week with audio in addition ) The letter to the Ephesians which so with joy restates the "gentiles" being now included into the citizenship of "Israel" and just how clear it is with regard to our "hope in Christ" and the message of truth "the gospel of our salvation" this letter so clearly sets forth the hope of salvation and the Love we are to have "in Christ Jesus" the ONE hope. I remember during my "active" years when reading the scriptures , wondering how anyone could read them and not think they applied to themselves ( and wondering why they taught these are only for that "special elect" ) I was truly grateful for having been introduced to the bible as your love letter from God and Christ Jesus . ( a notion I carried all the years among witnesses)It must be difficult for many to "love" those who "were chosen" and predestined according to Gods plan when one thinks oneself is not , keeping the r&f separated from the Christ and "all the brothers" is surly a way of keeping them from being able to love Jesus in the most complete sense .

• Reply by katrina on 2017-07-24 07:51:21

  “spiritual materialists”. so true we have gone so far away from the Gods word and entrenched ourselves into an organization controlled by men and being controlled forever dangling that carrot in from of our eyes to keep us in but it drags us away from what truth is that is the Salvation of Christ the gift that nothing else can compare.

Comment by Keepitsimple on 2017-07-24 01:09:07

You're right Meleti,the teaching in the KH is boring, we are in spiritual anorexia,we eat almost nothing but we boast we are full.
When i do talks in the congregation, the elders warn me to only use WT articles and even i must said which year and page of the article i use ,all this is to keep the congregation in the WT teaching, and this is boring because my job is to do a reminder. Most of the time when i feel to deviate and use refreshing teaching, i've found that the hostility of the elders is proportional to the brothers and sister appreciation comments. My reward is the joy of my brothers ans sisters to be edify by the bible , but the joy is not a priority to the WT but submission is. Hopefully we can find a full protein diet on this web site and keep alive our critical thinking by the same way.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-24 08:38:49

  I had a similar experience, Chris, when I used to attend regularly. I often had brothers come up to me after the meeting to thank me for my comments. To me it proves that many are very hungry for real spiritual food, but they just do not know how to get it. The elders on the other hand became very suspicious. The Bible speaks about the spirit within us and the light within us. Paradoxically, that light can be darkness. (Mt 6:23)
  
  Since we cannot see the spirit from God, nor that which originates with the evil one, but can only perceive each spirit by the fruitage it produces in men, I can only say that it is a marvel to me to see how quickly the enmity between the two seeds manifests itself in the Christian congregation between those who are children of light and those who are children of darkness.
  
  I once had some little kittens who had never seen a dog in their life. My father's dog came quietly into the room and immediately the kittens, who were still blocked from seeing the dog, reacted by hissing with the hair on their back standing up. Perhaps they smelled the dog, but since they'd never been in the presence of a dog before, their reaction was instinctive. It seems to me that those who are driven by the wrong spirit react instinctively to anyone who is in Christ. Even when we avoid saying anything that contradicts an official teaching, they recognize a different spirit is among them.
  
  However, I think the rank-and-file of our community is not like this, but as Jesus said about his own people, they are sheep without a shepherd. They are in darkness, and are not even aware of it. However, when those who walk in darkness and have taken it for granted as normal finally do see the light, the contrast is evident.
  
  “. . .Jesus therefore said to them: “The light will be among YOU a little while longer. Walk while YOU have the light, so that darkness does not overpower YOU; and he that walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While YOU have the light, exercise faith in the light, in order to become sons of light.”. . .” (Joh 12:35, 36)
  
  Our job is to be sons of light.

Comment by Amitafal on 2017-07-24 02:45:44

Another good article Meleti. I have to say I was one of those who on the ministry saw a lovely house and said "I reserve that one for after Armageddon"! However, when you think about what we were taught it's not surprising that we say these things as I was not raised in the 'Truth', and had lived life as a single mum struggling for most of my life when I started studying with the Witnesses. The scriptures in Psalms and Isaiah are studied in the publications as a reward for obeying Jehovah aren't they. In fact we are offered Eutopia as portrayed in their illustrations! On the other hand we are also in fear of what will happen (we are told), if we don't obey. I agree totally the focus should have been on our Rewarder & Jesus' sacrifice, life and ministry.

Comment by MarthaMartha on 2017-07-24 04:05:42

I do agree, Meleti and all.
I no longer attend the midweek meeting because I was coming home frustrated and agitated.
Last week I set myself to read Romans while my husband was at meeting. I always do some personal study but I wanted just to read the Bible this time and intended to read the whole book. Reading in an undertone ☺️ from a different translation was like reading it for the first time. Before long I was making notes and just sitting ? pondering, with joy. I got to chapter 5 and my husband returned.
"What was the meeting like dear? " " Same old same old. Video on disfellowshipping. Blah."
"Oh well I read this and it was amazing... Listen!"
We sat and laughed at the difference between us.
Recently I had a small discussion with an elder ( they're circling?) who suggested that I try the midweek meeting again just to see how it felt. I told him I didn't feel I was being spiritually fed at that meeting and it was frustrating me. He suggested that I may not realise it but Jehovah knows what I need.

I had to bite my tongue.?

He didn't seem to appreciate it when I said that my relationship with Jehovah and Jesus are actually doing fine and closer than ever before, and that I am happy.

Funny you should say about the meetings pre 75. We were just saying how we loved to get the " deep things" in our minds in the old days but there are no deep things anymore. Of course those deep things included types and anti types... How many decades did we waste getting those straight in our heads only to be told it was all wrong. It's just like so called nutritionists telling me that butter was bad for me and I should eat margarine. Thankfully I had the sense to ignore them!

Do not put your trust in nobles.... How true.

Love to you all.
Xx Martha

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-24 08:22:58

  We have been going through Romans chapter by chapter in our weekly online meeting. Your sold right that it makes one joyful to learn these things; to have the truth virtually spring off the page. What a contrast with the sand-in-place-of-water that is doled out at the midweek meetings.

  • Reply by wild olive on 2017-07-25 07:18:50

    Hi Meleti
    The book of romans was the beginning of the end for me,for years I would read Rom 8:1 and wonder why I felt that even at the peak of my service in the org I felt condemned. I would look at that scripture and it would just go through my head over and over,but why the feeling of condemnation?
    Well eventually the Holy Spirit drilled through the wood and it just hit me like a cyclone,I was not "in union " with Christ,I can't even describe the rush of the revelation,just finding that one thing opened a flood gate of spirit,over night the bible became a totally new book,it was like I was reading it the first time,about two weeks after that it happened a young guy I was working with,who was a serious Pentecostal Christian,said to me in passing," yeah I like to read the bible,especially the acts of the apostles,but I would much rather live it" . That statement swept away even more of my indoctrination,as what JW thinks of themselves doing what the apostles were doing?
    Then another guy at work was given a RKJV for his 20 th birthday,he asked me if I wanted it,as he had no reason or desire to read it,that was my first real read from a translation other than a NWT,I went straight to Rom 8:1 and the heading to the chapter read " Life in the Spirit" an expression that I had never seen in 50 yrs as a JW ,again another revelation,totally mind blowing,my JW beliefs feeling like some old broken antique that just had to be discarded,and that's how it been ever since. The only draw back is how to share real faith and truth with others that I know who are JWs,as you said in the article the parameters are so very narrow and getting narrower.

• Reply by Joseph Anton on 2017-07-24 17:47:54

  This is where I'm at. I get more out of meetings not by paying attention, but by opening up my bible and reading it. I was talking to my wife about how Bethel is really courting disaster when it comes to meeting attendance by pushing so many videos. If we can learn anything from the collapse of Tower Records and Borders Books is that a physical copy can't compete with something folks can download at home. Why am I driving thirty minutes in each direction to watch videos I can get on my iPhone and watch (if I felt like it) after work on my drive home? I've told my wife more than a few times that I really don't like getting home from work, changing into my dress clothes, and driving to the congregation just to watch TV. I can watch TV at home. If I'm getting dressed up it's TO LEARN SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW YET.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-25 08:46:15

    Maybe that is all part of the plan. Make it possible for brothers to meet in small groups in private homes but still under the influence of the Governing Body. Sell them on the idea that persecution from "The Assyrian" is imminent, and that all Kingdom Halls should be sold and the brothers need to meet "underground". The sale of tens of thousands of properties worldwide now owned exclusively by the Organization will garner billions in revenue.

    • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2017-07-25 15:15:55

      I wouldn't count it out. I think that would be the death knell though. One new addition is visual "aids" along with the talk outlines for the Sunday talk. They look nice, until you realize that there's no longer any creativity allowed in any talk we hear at the KH. Some of the best talks from my youth were from extremely gifted and creative public speakers. People who understood the power of illustrations and creating images for the audience to latch onto. Now it's all been sanitized with visual references stamped on for flair. No wiggle room. Dull. Dull. Dull. And getting duller.

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-25 15:43:48

        You're right. It would be the death knell. But I'm expecting something stupid. They seem to do this in fifty year cycles. There was Rutherford's "Millions now living will never die" in 1918 which culminated in the 1925 fiasco. Then Franz's seventh creative day calculation in 1967 which ended with the 1975 failure. And now in 2017 they're measuring the length of a generation based on the age of the Governing Body which makes 2025 seems attractive. They've promised us they will be giving instructions that may seem unsound and not good strategy. They're nailing their colors to the mast. The brothers are expecting something.

        • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2017-07-25 15:54:19

          Pluralistic Ignorance: In social psychology, pluralistic ignorance is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, but incorrectly assume that most others accept it, and therefore go along with it.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-25 16:44:44

            "Pluralistic ignorance". Thanks for sharing this.

        • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2017-07-25 15:57:11

          The first article I read here you discussed that very 50 year cycle. I save "The Rise and Fall of JW.org" to my phone.

          • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-25 16:44:14

            I'd forgotten that article. Thanks for the reminder. The little grey cells are again. :)

      • Reply by wild olive on 2017-08-04 01:06:34

        Hi JA
        I also remember gifted speakers from my youth,one in particular gave a talk about the last few days of Jesus life,it was at an assembly,and no joke there was not one dry eye in an audience of 7000, I remember being riveted by talks like that,not any more all history now .

    • Reply by wild olive on 2017-07-27 23:55:50

      Just an alternative view on what might happen to assets.
      The present world is ruled more than ever by powerful corporations,this is the first time in history that big businesses can manipulate government,they are the true rulers,members of state are just a facade.
      It wouldn't surprise me if the GB was approached by one or some of these corporations and asked to "donate" in lieu of permitting the org to exist,in other words pay your way into our favour. I would imagine a lot of property been sold under that circumstance,after all I can't see any of the GB going back to work,they are "too old to dig" they need their lifestyle,I believe they would not hesitate to do what ever is required to keep that lifestyle,that's what's happened ever since the days of the judge.

  • Reply by Ifionlyhadabrain on 2017-07-25 13:58:21

    Your well on your way now Joseph , that's exactly what I used to do , just read my bible , and when they used to cherry pick the verses ,read the whole chapter, the meetings take on a whole new dimension then , you just get a different feel altogether .

    • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2017-07-25 15:32:19

      I read every chapter around the scriptures quoted. The most enlightening one this week was getting the full illustration behind this Watchtower chestnut - Luke 16: 10 "He who is faithful in little, is faithful in much." I discovered that it's translated "trusted" in most editions, and that sure runs in sync with the illustration Christ was using. This exact scripture has been used on me - and others I'm sure - to chastise my growing a beard.

      • Reply by Ifionlyhadabrain on 2017-07-25 16:08:58

        Haven't looked at the verse for ages , but as far as I can remember , the context is speaking of money and riches , and the faithful in least is how we use what earthly gifts we have to help those in need . I'll have a look at that again later . And update the comment if I have to . I'm pretty sure it's got nothing to do with beards .anyway , haha

        • Reply by Joseph Anton on 2017-07-25 16:22:46

          It doesn't. ;)
          
          It seems like the steward was shrewd, cut out his commission on money owed to his master to win favor with future employers. Sacrificing income now, for a job in the future. Jesus even speaks that the people in the world are much shrewder in business than the "children of light." I'm just trying to tie in what the "Faithful in little" portion could mean.

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-26 14:39:26

          My comeback is that for arguably the most important meeting of Christian times, the outpouring of holy spirit at Pentecost, the count was about 120. About?? They were so concerned by numbers yet they couldn't get even that count down accurately? I don't think so.

          • Reply by Ifionlyhadabrain on 2017-07-26 15:52:23

            Yes meleti that talk was at a hall my son was at , the talk at our hall the brother quoted acts where it said "around " 3 thousand souls were added , and then said that shows the importance of accurate reporting , hahaha I'm thinking what ? After that I just started putting approximates down , and never really took it seriously again , oh dear ,

      • Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-07-25 17:46:22

        It was used on me to try to encourage/bully me into putting in a report.

        • Reply by Ifionlyhadabrain on 2017-07-26 12:31:07

          The best one I heard about reports , was about Gideon s 300 men , and the brother then said so numbers do matter to god , so it's important to put an accurate report in , hahahahaha urgh,

          • Reply by MarthaMartha on 2017-07-26 16:07:39

            Ha! Do we have the same elders?
            ?

            • Reply by Ifionlyhadabrain on 2017-07-26 18:48:10

              It's probably again that outline is coming from the watchtower Martha , but it's possible if you are from he UK .

• Reply by Yehorakam on 2017-07-24 20:02:20

  Very true Martha. It was never really solid food. It was just the impression we were given because the WT studies were 40 paragraphs long and the explanations were so complicated and they left our heads spinning! Much like the all "Bible Schools" the org arranges. Hours and hours and hours of homework. What was it...homework to read chapters of the Bible to discuss the next day? Nope! Pages and pages of WT's and KM's to discuss the next day.
  
  It was never good food, just reheats of leftovers from the publications. ?

  • Reply by huang on 2017-07-29 00:19:52

    “Do You Love Me More Than These?” meaning, not more than the fishes, nor the net and boat, but the question is, whether he loved Christ more than the rest of the disciples loved him: the reason of which was, because he had some time ago declared, though all the disciples were offended at Christ, and should deny him, he would not.
    Paragraph 18 - 18 When Jesus asked Peter: “Do you love me more than these?” he was reminding Peter of the need to put spiritual things first in his life. Peter, whose name means “A Piece of Rock,” indeed lived up to his name, for he displayed rocklike qualities. (Acts 4:5-20)
    Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers is interesting ..
    (15) Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas.--The better text here and in John 21:16-17, is, Simon, son of John. The contrast of the name by which the Evangelist denotes, and with that by which the Lord addresses Peter, at once strikes us as significant, and the more so because it comes in a context containing several significant verbal contrasts. Our Lord's words would seem to address him as one who had fallen from the steadfastness of the Rock-man, and had been true rather to his natural than to his apostolic name. (Comp. Note on John 1:42, and Matthew 16:17.)

    • Reply by huang on 2017-07-30 11:20:19

      A strange thing happened at the KH - the bottom fell out of the w study discussion.
      At paragraph 2 - "So it seems that Jesus was asking him where his true affection lay. Did he have greater affection for the fish and the fishing business than for Jesus and the things that he taught?
      "SO IT SEEMS..."- they are not even sure of their interpretation. Yet it was a gungho discussion about secular work, recreation or materialism.
      My comment at paragraph 18 -
      "Peter had previously declared that though other disciples may stumble and deny Christ, he would not. But Peter then went on to publicly deny Jesus three times. So when Jesus asked Peter the question, “Do you love me more than these?” - he meant NOT the fishes he had caught, nor the net and boat but whether Peter (or Simon) loved Jesus more than the rest of the disciples loved him. Simon's answer – “I have affection for you” led to Jesus assigning important responsibility to Peter – “Feed my lambs.”
      So it wasn't about secular work, recreation or materialism. Moment of truth.

Comment by Yehorakam on 2017-07-24 10:57:33

Quite true Meleti. The so called "spiritual" discussions we used to have always seemed to be about "organizational activities," not actually God's Word and Christ's precious teachings. In contrast, last night, my wife and I reflected on the Bible reading that we do as a small group. Yesterday, our little group read 2 chapters of Matthew which took about 7 minutes, but before we knew it, the comments and conversations that followed lasted over an hour and a half. Time just flew by. No "publications" or organizational activities were ever mentioned. Only other portions of the scriptures that tied in to the reading. We all have remarked that our love for God's word has increased since we left the org. We now read the scriptures with more enthusiasm and regularity than when we were Witnesses. We now have much more "spiritual" discussions indeed!

A while back, the elders asked my mother-in-law why she "left Jehovah" because she stopped attending meetings. She replied respectfully: "perhaps I left my seat at the KH, but I didn't leave my Bible there. I took that with me!" She has told me that she feels much closer to Jehovah and Jesus and her love for the scriptures has multiplied.

With regards to the GB wanting to control everything and not allow anything they haven't "approved" (like your example of the carts), one thing in the past that for me cried "hypocrisy" or "micro-management" was the matter of music. I remember in the past a brother with a guitar composed a few Christian songs of his own and sang them at a congregation picnic. He was told by the elders afterward that he should only be singing Kingdom melodies because the songs he sang were not "approved" by the GB. Then, years later on JW.org, the video comes out on serving where the need is greater with a guitar jingle in the background and a chorus like "this is the best life ever." I had to sit down because I was flabbergasted. Here was a nice song that wasn't a kingdom melody, but somehow it was okay. Why? Because it had been approved by the governing body...and of course the lyrics and catchy jingle served to support organizational activities. Just another example to show their fear of allowing personal expression. You can't sing, comment or give talks unless you're repeating what they've written. Can't meet together unless they called the meeting and provided the outline. It's been difficult to leave family and friends behind and go alone for a while, but my relationship with my Father and Christ is soooooo much better since leaving the org for good. Perhaps that's what Jesus meant when he said we would have to leave behind family and other things to follow him. Our love for him should be greater.

Much love,

• Reply by Ifionlyhadabrain on 2017-07-25 13:32:31

  Enjoyed that comment about personal expression Yehorakam . I feel that even god allowed room for personal expression , when men penned the bible , 1 corinthians 7 v12 , 2 chronicles 18 v 19 and 20 , that attitude toward the brother playing guitar irritates me , it takes all joy away ,that's not coming from the bible , ephesians 5 v 19 says "sing and make music from your hearts to the lord "

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-24 16:21:28

  So very true, Yehorakam. The joy we experience when meeting with others and freely discussing the Scriptures is like nothing I ever experienced at the Kingdom hall. I used to dread the meetings but attended as a matter of obligation and duty. Now I look forward to gathering together.

• Reply by wild olive on 2017-07-27 20:21:32

  Hi Yehorakam
  You comment on the music situation brought back memories for me.
  Not long after I was baptised the elders in my cong asked me and another bro to play guitar for the songs at the meetings,he was a lot older than me so what he suggested I went along with,he decided that some of the songs needed "upgrading" together we gave songs a rock and roll tempo or some we turned into reggae or just played faster,everyone including the elders,enjoyed the music so much,that they would come before the meeting to ask if we had a new rhythm. We got so popular that bro would come from other congs to hear the music,people would even walk off the street into the hall because they wanted to hear what was going on,that was when we had the purple song book,which got replaced ,around the same time we got the new song book we also got a new CO,who stopped the ad lib music and insisted that all be done according to how it was in the new book,that was my first real taste of authoritarianism,not long after I quit playing because it lost its joy,so did the other bro,and tapes where used instead,so we were redundant anyway.
  I sometimes wonder if the ones in charge ever realise how dead they really are to any emotion that can be expressed in worship?

  • Reply by Yehorakam on 2017-07-27 21:44:41

    Wild Olive, I'm actually surprised your 'gig' lasted that long. Sad that people with talent got stomped on. Just another experience that shows that if you leave it up to the sheep, wonderful things happen. Leave it up to the organization, and you're guaranteed rain on your parade. By the way, always meant to tell you I like your name. Thought of using it myself. Haha.

    • Reply by wild olive on 2017-07-27 23:42:02

      Thanks Yehorakam
      Ime getting to a stage where an alias name is no longer needed,if Ime "discovered" frequenting an "apostate" web site I no longer care.
      Just on the music thing,I look back on my early years in the org with lots of satisfaction,I don't have anything to be ashamed of,it really was a great way of life,but somehow that changed along the way,I believe it's the process that Jesus puts us through to burn off all that is false till only that which is true remains,the JW movement still has enormous potential,but the amount of things that need revising or discarding would mean it looking more mainstream and therefore not "seperate" from the rest of Christendom. The GB are just too proud of their idol to admit its wrong I guess. It's those individuals that I feel for who see nothing else but to go along with what many must feel isn't right. Very sad .

      • Reply by Ifionlyhadabrain on 2017-07-28 01:17:26

        I enjoyed those comments , wild olive and can relate to them , I also love music and play guitar , I remember doing a little gig for the brothers and sisters years ago , when we had a talent night it was great fun , in the nineties I was very happy to be in the religion, but something happened after 2000 and all the joy went out of it for me and I started to feel crushed , how sad

  • Reply by eve04 on 2017-07-28 14:28:44

    Wild Olive,
    I love your comment "I sometimes wonder if the ones in charge ever realize how dead they really are to any emotion that can be expressed in worship".
    I don't think they do. I remember when the new songs, before this new song book came out and I thought oh lord how boring they sound. I don't think they realize either how emotionless those songs are to people coming from different religions. I have heard so many comments from bible students that the music is awful. But I could always come back and say at least they are telling the truth. Not anymore!!
    BTW wish I could have heard you play. :)

Comment by Lone Survivor on 2017-07-24 12:24:37

Hello Dear Brothers and Sisters
Yes Meleti you hit the nail square on the head. We want you to know that we are in the same boat with you paddling along. Just this very morning some of us in the group where talking about the very same thing and it can be very frustrating. But we want you to know that we appreciate your good work and the work of the others as well and all the encouraging comments. This has greatly motivated us to do more in Jehovah's service, of course we all have many goals in this respect. Our hope right now is to reach and help as many as possible that are leaving the organization with what the Bible truly teaches, friends this is not the work of one but of all of us under the hand of The One Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. The organization is so guilty of greatly damaging families and individuals and are in need of empathy understanding consoling and what we never really had a true understanding of Gods word. So Meleti and others you are reaching hearts keep up the good work.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-07-24 16:20:12

  Will do and thanks for the support and encouragement.

Comment by Joseph Anton on 2017-07-24 16:07:00

Secular work, recreation, and material things are not an "instead of" to spirituality. The Society always presents everything as binary - when in reality I carry my Christianity with me in all endeavors. I'm a Christian at work. A Christian when I take my wife to the movies. It's a part of me that doesn't slough away the minute I'm not at the Hall or out in Service. The reason the GB present the binary argument is because they need the staff to energize the numbers. They don't follow the binary code either. They're GB no matter what they're doing.

• Reply by wild olive on 2017-07-25 01:39:09

  Hi Joseph anton
  Just like Heb12:2 says you are the sacred service,anywhere ,anytime with anybody under a covenant,just wonderful

Comment by eve04 on 2017-07-24 16:31:36

I am so happy I found this site a year ago. The focus is on Jesus and building a relationship with him, that is what we are admonished to do at Heb 12:2 as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. Not an organization. Because of my new enthusiasm for bible reading and not being afraid to research outside of what the Org tells us we can research. A big thank you for this website and the articles so nicely written with scriptural proof and the comments from all, it is making my spiritual journey a little sad(because of not having anyone to share face to face) but a nice one.

• Reply by Joseph Anton on 2017-07-25 00:39:47

  I agree with this sentiment 100%. There's so much hostility and arrogance - and honestly, atheism - in the ex-JW online community, that's just not who I am. I'm not trading in one authoritarian regime for a new authoritarian regime. I've always been a believer. I've always felt a real sense of responsibility toward my Christian heritage - no matter where it happened to come from, it brought me here. I love Meleti's last sentence because his affinity is the type of affinity I have. It's an admission of complicity and compassion, which is what it is to be Christian. Love is our law. I've grown to really find a lot of comfort here from the articles, but also from the comments. It feels like we're getting a window, maybe for the first time, on what pure Christian fellowship looks like.

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-07-27 06:30:27

Meliti, I am a bit late, but may I say that what you said is, as usual, spot on. However, Last week we managed to get the subject of "Chesed - the Hebrew word translated, usually, as "loving kindness" in the old NWT, now "loyal love", and the dreadful translation as "loyalty" in Micah 6:8.

However, we just focused on the meaning of the Hebrew word, well covered on the Internet and also not too badly in the Insight book, how it reflects Jehovah's loyal love in dealing with Israel and us. Yes there is loyalty in it, as long as it is combined with love.

The couple expressed appreciation for the discussion.

it goes to show how weak (I was going to say dead) the spiritual food is that we are being offered at the meetings, that one decent conversation around God's word is so much more exciting.

Comment by Eleasar on 2017-08-01 06:25:05

It is remarkable how one of the greatest examples of how to forgive and restore a human being is taken out of context and misused.
This account is post resurrection. We need to place ourselves in the context.

In Luke 5:8-11, we see Peter recognising that he was not worthy but Jesus extends his hand to him. This would have been early in his 3.5 years of ministry.

In Luke 22: 31-34, Jesus prepares Peter for his coming failure. Peter will have none of it. The whole chapter is a fascinating read on the perfect man as opposed to his disciples. This is on the night before his death.
Luke 22:54-62, highlights how Peter fails. Please look at verse 55 and Luke records "a lit fire". Please go to John 18:18 and you will see from John who was an eye witness an extra detail, "...a charcoal fire.." In John 18:27, we get a cock crowing and Peter's failure is complete. In Luke 22:62, Peter is a broken man.

Please go to Mark 16:7 and Jesus instruction if "... tell the disciples and Peter... into Galilee...". Notice the detail of "and Peter". Why? Because Jesus knew that Peter felt that he does not belong.

So John 21 is the setting of the disciples following the directions to meet at Galilee. Imperfect men who are troubled and restless have very little patience. They need to be active to take their mind off the situation.
Now we know what happens but look at the detail in John 21:4, 9. Day is breaking (when the cock crows) and there is a charcoal fire. Peter would have a feeling of deja vu. Jesus seems to recreate the scene of his failure an then asks 3 questions (one for each failure) to help restore the man. How wonderful? A lesson for all of us to help failing ones.

To take John 21:15-17 out of this beautiful account is criminal! I could show some understanding if they did not understand this account. But if you look at the "Draw Close to Jehovah" book, we see this is chapter 29:


*** cl chap. 29 pp. 297-299 pars. 17-19 “To Know the Love of the Christ” ***
17 Perhaps an even more touching example of Jesus’ forgiveness can be seen in the way he dealt with the apostle Peter. There is no question that Peter dearly loved Jesus. On Nisan 14, the final night of Jesus’ life, Peter told him: “Lord, I am ready to go with you both into prison and into death.” Yet, just a few hours later, Peter three times denied even knowing Jesus! The Bible tells us what happened as Peter uttered his third denial: “The Lord turned and looked upon Peter.” Crushed by the weight of his sin, Peter “went outside and wept bitterly.” When Jesus died later that day, the apostle may well have wondered, ‘Did my Lord forgive me?’—Luke 22:33, 61, 62.
18 Peter did not have to wait long for an answer. Jesus was resurrected on the morning of Nisan 16, and evidently on that same day, he made a personal visit to Peter. (Luke 24:34; 1 Corinthians 15:4-8) Why did Jesus give such special attention to the apostle who had so vigorously denied Him? Jesus may have wanted to assure the repentant Peter that he was still loved and valued by his Lord. But Jesus did even more to reassure Peter.
19 Some time later, Jesus appeared to the disciples at the Sea of Galilee. On this occasion, Jesus three times questioned Peter (who had three times denied his Lord) as to Peter’s love for him. After the third time, Peter replied: “Lord, you know all things; you are aware that I have affection for you.” Indeed, Jesus, who could read hearts, was fully aware of Peter’s love and affection for him. Yet, Jesus gave Peter an opportunity to affirm his love. More than that, Jesus commissioned Peter to “feed” and “shepherd” His “little sheep.” (John 21:15-17) Earlier, Peter had received an assignment to preach. (Luke 5:10) But now, in a remarkable demonstration of trust, Jesus gave him a further weighty responsibility—to care for those who would become Christ’s followers. Shortly afterward, Jesus gave Peter a prominent role in the activity of the disciples. (Acts 2:1-41) How relieved Peter must have been to know that Jesus had forgiven him and still trusted him!

Is anyone at WT HQ even researching their own writings from the past before they misapply and teach falsely. This is just shockingly bad form.

To apply this to teach issues around secular work, recreation and materialism is in my humble opinion to invalidate the scriptures.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-08-01 07:49:46

  An excellent summary of what really happened. So much more rewarding than the Organization's hackneyed refrain about materialism. Thanks, Eleasar.

  • Reply by wild olive on 2017-08-04 00:51:30

    And isn't it strange how the writers of the same article,who decry materialism are up to it like all the other religions.

• Reply by wild olive on 2017-08-02 18:29:58

  Hi Eleasar
  I went to this meeting on Sunday,the public talk was about copeing with depression and the anxiety it creates.The main scripture was Phil 4:6&7,the speaker went back to it 3 times in the talk,yet not once in the whole talk was anything said about Jesus,he didn't even read the end of verse7.
  As for the watchtower,par 2,9 &10 all point to having to "prove" our love of the Christ,as you pointed out Peters conscience was already giving him a hammering,why would Jesus exploit that state of mind and insist he "prove " his love, and add to his burden?Martha was distracted,again Jesus said nothing about Martha having to "prove" anything? and it certainly doesn't mean I love Christ less if I enjoy my work more than going to empty doors!
  The old guilt tripping that the GB love,which shows their state of mind. No father insists that his children have to " prove" they love him,only someone with a serious emotional problem would be that manipulative.

  • Reply by Eleasar on 2017-08-02 19:13:18

    Hi Wild Olive,
    The verse used as the theme text was actually asking Peter "do you love me more than these?" It could be the fishing business but the context of Peter and the betrayal does not fit. On that evening at the memorial Peter claimed that even if others reject Jesus he would not. In fact he would go to the grave with Jesus.
    
    So Jesus was helping him get through the mistakes Peter made. To misinterpret scripture and misapply it shows such a shoddy attitude. See the following commentary points:
    
    (UBS Handbooks for New Testament) The purpose of this section is to restore Peter to his discipleship. Three times he had denied Jesus (18.17, 25, 27); now he will affirm his love for Jesus three times (21.15, 16, 17). The question do you love me? is put to Peter three times, not because Jesus doubts Peter's love for him, but rather to indicate how earnest that love is. Even though Peter had denied Jesus three times, his love for him is genuine, and so Peter appeals to Jesus' own knowledge (you know that I love you) as evidence of this.
    Rather than Jesus and Peter, it may be better to employ as a section heading such an expression as "Jesus talks with Peter " or "Jesus asks Peter some questions " or "Jesus questions Peter about his love. "
    After they had eaten serves as a transition to the following episode. Although seven disciples are mentioned at the beginning of this account (21.2), this particular section is concerned solely with a dialogue between Jesus and Simon Peter.
    To facilitate the discussion of the remainder of this verse and of verses 16 and 17, the following outline is provided.
    1. The first series: (verse 15)
    A. Jesus' Question: "love " ( agapaō )
    B. Peter's Answer: "know " ( oida )
    "love " ( phileō )
    C. Jesus' Response: "take care of " ( boskō )
    "lambs " ( arnion )
    2. The second series: (verse 16):
    A. Jesus' Question: "love " ( agapaō )
    B. Peter's Answer: "know " ( oida )
    "love " ( phileō )
    C. Jesus' Response: "take care of " ( poimainō )
    "sheep " ( probaton )
    3. The third series: (verse 17):
    A. Jesus' Question: "love " ( phileō )
    B. Peter's Answer: "know " ( oida ) everything
    C. Jesus' Response: "take care of " ( boskō ) "sheep " ( probaton )"
    As can be seen from the outline John uses two words for "love," agapaō and phileō . At one time it was fashionable to see a distinction in meaning between the two words, but most scholars now agree that the words are used synonymously. This conclusion is reflected in most modern translations, since they render both verbs in the same manner (RSV , NEB , NAB , Mft , JB , Barclay , Luther Revised , ZUR Bible, GeCL , Francais Courant ). A few translations do, however, make a distinction in meaning. For example, Phps and the Living Bible translate phileō with the meaning "to be one's friend" (note also Segond and theNEB alternative rendering), while Gdsp translates agapaō as "to be devoted to." In a footnote on the two verbs, Barclay remarks: "It is almost certain that there is no difference in meaning between them." However, he does give the alternative possibility of "to be dear to" for phileō . It is suggested that the translator select as generic a term as possible for "to love," and use that term throughout the passage.
    In reply Peter uses two verbs meaning "to know." Here again the consensus of New Testament scholarship is that the verbs are used synonymously.
    Finally, in his command to Peter, Jesus uses two different verbs, both of which are translated take care of inTEV . The verb used in verses 15 and 17 ( boskō ) is used of herdsmen who "feed" or "tend" their herds. For example, it is used in Luke 15.15, where the prodigal son is sent to the fields to take care of the pigs; it is used of pig herders in Matthew 8.33; Mark 5.14; and Luke 8.34. In each of these occurrences the verb is used of people who are taking care of (not merely feeding) animals. So in John 21.15, 17 Take care of is better than the more limited meaning "feed" found in most translations. The verb used in verse 16 ( poimainō ) originally meant "to be a shepherd" (seeMft and Barclay "be a shepherd to my sheep"), but it is also widely used in the figurative sense "to lead," "to guide," or "to rule." Although most translations distinguish in meaning between these two verbs, they seem to be used synonymously in the present context.
    The object of these verses is lambs ( arnion ) in verse 15 and sheep ( probaton ) in verses 16 and 17. Translators sometimes make a distinction, but these nouns are probably used synonymously in the present context. Variation in the choice of nouns and verbs is a stylistic feature of the Johannine writer, and no real distinction in meaning should be looked for either in this passage. That different verbs and different nouns are used here to describe the same event and object is no more significant that the use of three different words for "fish" in verses 5-13. In verse 17 there is some manuscript support for the reading probation , technically meaning "little sheep" (Living Bible). However, the rendering "little sheep" does not appear in any of the major translations.
    More than these others do (Mft ; see also GeCL , Phps , Barclay , NEB alternative rendering) is to be preferred to the meaning "more than all else" (NEB ).
    Since Jesus posed a question to Simon Peter, it may be best to translate "Jesus asked Simon Peter," rather than merely Jesus said to Simon Peter.
    The ellipsis involved in the clause than these others do may need to be made explicit, for example, "than these others love me." If it is assumed that these refers to objects (as in NEB ), then the question must be rendered "do you love me more than you love all these things?" "These things" would refer to the boats, the net, and, by implication, Peter's previous occupation as a fisherman. This interpretation, however, seems far less satisfactory.
    In his answer Simon Peter does not attempt to qualify his own love in contrast with the love which others might have. This may be interpreted as a recognition of his own failure to acknowledge his love for Jesus during the trial. In some languages it may be best to translate you know that I love you as "you know how much I love you."
    Since take care of my lambs must beunderstood figuratively, it may be wise to treat this expression as a simile, for example, "Take care, as it were, of my lambs" or "Take care of my followers, just as though they were lambs."
    16-17
    On these verses, see comments at verse 15. It should be noted further that the four occurrences of Jesus in the TEV rendering of verses 16 and 17 represent "he" of the Greek text, though some manuscripts have "Jesus" before the command in verse 17. For stylistic reasons, TEV makes the references explicit.
    The pronoun you in Peter's response is emphatic in both instances (you know everything; you know).
    
    Every commentary that I have give variations on this. How can they destroy one of the greatest examples of forgiveness and restoration by discussing materialism, recreation and secular work beggars belief. How beautiful and elevating when we just learn from Jesus!
    
    Love
    Eleasar Altheia

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-08-03 08:04:56

      Eleasar, in reading your comment and the citations, I realized something. If the three times Jesus asked Peter if he loved him relate to the three times Peter denied him, then that may aid us in weighing in on whether Jesus was referring to Peter's occupation, or the other disciples when he asked "Do you love me more then these?"
      
      Peter had boasted that even if all the others denied Jesus, he would not. (Mark 14:29) In other words, while all fled, Peter's sin was greater--at least in his mind--because he overtly denied Jesus, and not once, but thrice. So it might appear that rather than loving Jesus the most, he loved him the least of all, because he failed him the most. In this context, Jesus question would seem to refer to the love of the other disciples, since Peter's failure--not his preoccupation with the fishing business--would be the foremost thought in Peter's mind.

      • Reply by Eleasar on 2017-08-03 11:04:03

        Meleti,
        
        The parallels are as follows:
        
        1. Peter is by a 'charcoal fire' on the night of Jesus arrest. Jesus has the fish prepared on a 'charcoal fire' by the Galilee shore in John 21.
        
        2. The cock crows near the break of dawn. The fisherman came back as day was breaking in John 21.
        
        3. Peter denies him 3 times on the night of his arrest. He wept bitterly. Jesus asks Peter 3 questions to let Peter express his love and affection.
        
        So Jesus recreates the physical environment of the failure and then helps him overcome his failure and renews him for the new life ahead. Does it work? Well Peter took the lead a few days later on Pentecost and gave the first Christian public discourse. This required a great deal of courage.
        
        Finally, this is where we get the phrase "by hook or crook", the fisherman's hook and the Shepherd's crook.
        
        To make it mean his business and trade just does not fit. Below is John Phillips Commentary and he has similar thoughts to the UBS one I shared previously.
        
        1. The Old Name (21:15a)
        
        The Lord used the name Peter had in his unregenerate days, before he met the Savior: Simon, son of Jonas. On the night of the betrayal, Peter had used the lies and even the coarse language of his old nature. So Jesus called him by his old name.
        That stabbed Peter’s conscience. When Peter first met the Lord, Jesus had said to him: "Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone" (1:42). When Peter had made his great confession, the Lord had reconfirmed that: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona... And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter" (Matthew 16:17-18). But now the Lord went back to the old name and left it at that. It is no part of healing a guilty conscience to minimize the seriousness of the offense, nor to conceal the source in the old evil nature from whence it came.
        "Lovest thou me more than these?" The Lord’s word was agapao, the word for the highest kind of love, the word used for God’s love, love that is lofty, spiritual, pure. It is not certain what Jesus meant by "more than these. Did Peter love Jesus more than the fish? After all, he had taken the initiative, he had influenced the others into going back into the fishing business. If he wanted to settle for fish, well, there were plenty of them. Peter could go and sell them and get a good start back in business.
        More probably, "more than these" refers to the disciples. Peter had boasted, "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended... Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee" (Matthew 26:33, 35). He said this in the face of the Lord’s prophecy that he would deny him three times (Matthew 26:34). "Do you love me more than these other disciples, Peter?" Was that what the Lord meant? In either case, the Lord was probing Peter’s conscience.
        2. The Old Claim (21:15b)
        Peter’s answer was prompt, but marked by caution: "Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee." Peter used the word phileo, meaning brotherly love. "You know, Lord," Peter said, "I have deep affection for you."
        "He saith unto him, Feed my lambs." The word for "lambs" is arnion, a diminutive. It occurs only here and in the book of Revelation, where it is used of Christ twenty-eight times. The other word for "lamb" is used solely of Christ (1:29, 36; Acts 8:32; 1 Peter 1:19). The Lord accepted Peter’s genuine profession of love and directed him once and for all away from the secular to the spiritual, from the fishing business to the work of a shepherd of God’s lambs.
        B. Rekindling Peter’s Fervor (21:16-17)
        The Lord repeated his question. Peter had used a lesser word for love. The Lord asked Peter the same question. He wanted to lift him to higher ground.
        Do You Have a Burning Love for Me? (12:16)
        We read: "He saith to him the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep." This time Jesus did not ask Peter to state his love comparatively ("more than these"), whether in terms of his business or his brethren. He asked him to state his love absolutely. "Lovest thou me?" Peter answered the same way as before. "Lord, you know I have deep affection for you."
        "Feed my sheep," the Lord replied. This time he used a different word for "feed" and a different word for the flock. The first time the word was bosko, which expresses the idea of providing the flock with food (21:15). This time the word is poimaino, which means "to tend" or "to shepherd" the flock. The word for "sheep" is probatia. He added to Peter’s commis- sion. Lambs need to be fed: sheep need to be led.
        Do You Have a Brotherly Love for Me? (21:17)
        Since Peter had twice used the word for brotherly love, the Lord changed the question. He asked him, "Do you have a brotherly love for me?" We read: "He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee" (21:17). This time Jesus had used Peter’s own word. He said, "Do you have personal affection for me?" That broke Peter completely.
        The threefold question matched the threefold denial. Peter had been vehement when he denied the Lord the third time; he is passionate enough now. "You know I have personal affection for you. You know me through and through. You know everything. You know what I said and what I did and what I am. You know me better than I know myself. Lord, out of all your knowledge of me you know I have brotherly love for you. You know I love you (phileo) and I know I can never love you the way you love me (agape)." It was the confession of a man who had been put to the wall by his conscience and who stood now before the Lord, broken, aware of his weakness, sensitive to his limitations, and afraid ever to boast again.
        "Feed my sheep," Jesus said. This time the word for "feed" is bosko, the same word used for the lambs (21:15). The sheep need not only to be led, they need to be fed. So Peter was installed into office as an under-shepherd, aware now of his calling to tend God’s flock. The flock of God needs two things: good pastorage and gracious pastoring. Peter henceforth was to provide both. How he discharged his duty we learn from the book of Acts and from his two epistles.

        • Reply by wild olive on 2017-08-04 00:49:47

          Thanks Eleasar for that excellent dissertation of those verses,so much meat in just a few words,wonderful.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-08-03 07:11:56

    An excellent observation, Wild Olive.

Comment by Baruq on 2017-08-03 18:06:33

" Witnesses do not discuss the Bible when they are together. Any discussion that they would consider to be spiritual is about the Organization: The last Circuit Overseer’s visit, or the circuit assembly program, or a visit to Bethel, or some “theocratic” construction project, or a family member’s appointment to a new “privilege of service”. And of course, the conversation is peppered with remarks about how near the end is and how this or that world event might portend the fulfillment of prophecy showing how very close we are to the Great Tribulation."
Sadly, it is so true. I had have many of that experiences. The only way to have good conversation about the Bible is to find someone in your entourage who believes in God and goes to church.
With brothers of the congregation, we see the Broadcasting, the discussion is about the speeches, and then we go to eat something and speak about everything but Bible.