Move forward as a Spiritual Person!

– posted by Tadua

[From ws2/18 p. 23 — April 23 - 29]

“Keep Walking by Spirit.” Galatians 5:16

The whole problem with the concept of a spiritual person as the Organization defines it can be ascertained from the first two paragraphs.

ROBERT got baptized as a teenager, but he did not really take the truth seriously. He says: “I never did anything wrong, but I was just going through the motions. I looked spiritually strong, being at all the meetings and serving as an auxiliary pioneer a few times a year. But something was missing.” (Par. 1)

Robert himself did not perceive what was wrong until later when he got married. He and his wife began passing time by quizzing each other on Bible subjects. His wife, a spiritually strong person, had no problem answering the questions, but Robert found himself constantly embarrassed, not knowing what to say.” (Par. 2)

Problems immediately identified

  1. Many teenage witnesses are pressured by parents, elders and peers into getting baptized at an early age to ‘prove their spiritually’ yet they are still youths and very few truly have any spiritual interest at least at that age. They have the “desires incidental to youth”. (2 Timothy 2:22)

  2. The Organization’s definition of spirituality includes attending all meetings and auxiliary pioneering at least once a year, yet these are things that, as Robert says, he did while going through the motions because his heart was not in it. Yet, if the scriptural definition of a spiritual person—displaying the fruits of the spirit—is followed, there is no opportunity for going through the motions. (See also last week's Watchtower article review.) You cannot be mild, humble, hospitable, peaceable, long-suffering and kind just by going through the motions. We may present a facade, but in reality, if those qualities truly exist in us, it means that God's holy spirit truly exists in us. (Galatians 5:22-23)

  3. Robert’s wife was considered a spiritual person because of her knowledge of the Scriptures. Satan and the demons know the Scriptures well. (E.g.: Satan’s attempt to tempt Jesus – Matthew 4:1-11) Head knowledge of the Scriptures can be gained without the spirit, but true understanding of God's word and the wisdom to apply it does not come unless Jehovah imparts his spirit.

  4. Robert’s wife chose a marriage mate who wasn’t scripturally spiritual and compounded that by marrying Robert who wasn’t even spiritual by Organization standards. Yes, she was taken in by Robert’s false show of fake spirituality, because that was what she had been taught to look for in a husband.  Often in the videos on, sisters are encouraged to look for brothers who are pioneers, appointed servants, or Bethelites.

The Organization accepts, to a point, that knowledge isn’t everything when they say “We may have some Bible knowledge and may regularly associate with the Christian congregation, but these things in themselves do not necessarily make us into a spiritual person.” (Par. 3)

Too right! We would go further and say that in no way do those things make one into a spiritual person. According to Colossians 3:5-14, what makes a spiritual person is the display of the fruits of the spirit and having the mind of Christ.

Paragraph 5 continues by asking a good question: “Do I notice changes in myself that indicate that I am moving toward becoming a spiritually-minded person?  However, in a style that is typical of WT instruction, it immediately puts an Organizational slant on things by continuing:

Is my personality becoming Christlike? What do my disposition and conduct at Christian meetings reveal about the depth of my spirituality? What do my conversations show about my desires? What do my study habits, dress and grooming, or reaction to counsel reveal about me? How do I react when faced with temptations? Have I progressed beyond basics to maturity, becoming full-grown as a Christian?’ (Eph. 4:13)” (Par. 5)

Conduct at meetings, our manner of dress and grooming, and the way we respond to counsel from elders and the Governing Body are given as indicators of our level of spirituality.

Paragraph 6 then cites 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. Here the apostle Paul called the Corinthians fleshly and so fed them milk of the word. So, why did he call them fleshly? Was it because they were missing meetings and field service or because of their dress and grooming? No, it was because they were failing to display the fruits of the spirit and instead were displaying the fruits of the flesh, such as jealousy and strife.

Furthermore, it raises a question in our minds as to whether the Governing Body are treating all the brothers and sisters as fleshly rather than spiritual? Why?  Because the majority of material published in recent years appears to be watered down milk.  Where is the meat of the word?

After citing the example of Solomon who had a lot of knowledge but failed to remain spiritual, paragraph 7 says “We need to continue to make spiritual progress” and then suggests that the best way to “apply Paul’s counsel” in Hebrews 6:1 “to press on to maturity” is by studying the publication: Keep Yourselves in God’s Love.  Again, the answer isn't to pray for more spirit, nor to read and meditate on the Bible, but to suck from the teat of the Organization.  This particular publication is hugely slanted toward producing habits that are useful to the Organization.

This skewed Org-centric view of spirituality is evident by these words directed to baptismal candidates:

many...have a clear vision of what they want to do to serve Jehovah​—perhaps by entering some form of full-time service or by serving where there is a greater need for Kingdom proclaimers.” (Par. 10)

Preaching full-time or where there is a greater need is laudable under the right circumstances.  However, if done within the framework of an Organization that requires us to teach false doctrine and instill trust in and loyalty to men over God, it becomes the path not to true spirituality, but to the reproach of God.

"Outside [of the Kingdom] are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:15)

Belatedly, in paragraph 13, it mentions specific scriptural things we can work on:

“As we 'put forth all earnest effort' to develop such qualities as self-control, endurance, and brotherly affection, we will be helped to continue to move ahead as spiritually-minded individuals.”  (par. 13)

You may have heard the expression: "Damned by faint praise." Well, this is similar.  We might way that these qualities are "dismissed by faint mention."  Consider the number of articles published to promote meeting attendance, pioneering, helping with Organization construction projects, proper dress and grooming, obedience to the elders, loyalty to the Governing Body.  Now scan past Watchtowers for deep instructional articles on developing "love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, mildness, and self control."  Regular readers of The Watchtower won't even have to spend the time. The answer will be on the tip of their tongue.

 The next paragraph has these fine questions:

What Bible principles will help me decide? What would Christ do in this situation? What decision will please Jehovah?” (par. 14)

 There is then an attempt to draw out principles from some scriptures.

Selecting a marriage mate. (Par. 15)

The scripture cited is 2 Corinthians 6:14-15, “Do not become unevenly yoked to an unbeliever.” Of course the Organization’s definition of an unbeliever is a non-Witness. If you asked a Catholic, they would respond that an unbeliever would be a non-Catholic. However, in the context of this scripture, an unbeliever is a pagan as opposed to a Christian.

Associations. Note the Scriptural principle found at 1 Corinthians 15:33. (Read.) A godly person will not mix with those who could endanger his spirituality  (Par. 16)

Paul is speaking about bad associations within the congregation.  For example, people who are trying to get us to obey men instead of God.  However, that doesn't work for the Organization because it wants its followers to avoid any contact outside of the congregation.  From the paragraph, witness youths will feel guilty about playing any video game with anyone who isn't another Jehovah's Witness.  However, if we have no interaction, even wholesome interaction, with others, how can we lead them to the truth of God's word?

  • Activities that hinder spiritual growth.” This is the third ‘principle’ the article examines. Again we have slanted questions to try to influence our answer or decision. It asks “Does this activity fall in the category of fleshly works? Should I get involved in this money-making proposal? Why should I not join worldly reform movements?” So by the inference of the wording any “money-making proposal” and any “worldly reform movement” is a fleshly work. However, there is a big difference between a get rich quick “money-making proposal” and a normal business proposition to make money. All business exists to make a profit; otherwise its employees would not get paid. We have to use soundness of mind and avoid greed in making our decisions. As to “worldly reform movement”, that is rather a vague, wide ranging scope. For example would it be wrong to work for an Environmental agency which endeavours to reduce or stops pollution? Or a wildlife and habitat protection agency? Presumably the Organization is referring to political reform. Whatever the aim we are still asking the question as yet unanswered truthfully, why did the Organization join the United Nations as an NGO, if it is fleshly to join a “worldly reform movement”?

  • “Disputes.” About disputes, the article says “As followers of Christ, we work to “be peaceable with all men.” When disputes arise, how do we react? Do we find it difficult to yield, or are we known as those who are “making peace”?​—James 3:18”
    The question raised here is: What situations are we talking about? If within the congregation, then as with other situations, there are times when one would yield, but there are also times when we could not yield because of a scriptural requirement or principle. It is also ill advised to ever yield to bullies, as that invites continued and often worse bullying (This occurs in the congregations far more than it should, usually on the part of elders who should know better.) We would avoid making an issue out of unimportant things, just as Jesus did, but some things need to have issues made of them otherwise there is never going to be a change for the better.

The article concludes with a quote from Robert: “After I developed a real relationship with Jehovah, I was a better husband and a better father.” The better endorsement would have been one from his wife and offspring. Someone, other than ourselves, is the best judge as to whether we have truly become a more Christ-like person.

If we continue to make a real effort to practice true Christian qualities, the fruits of the spirit we display and practice will not go unnoticed by others.  That will be the true mark of how spiritual a person we are.

Archived Comments

We have moved to the Disqus commenting system. To post a new comment, go to the bottom of this page.

  • Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-04-22 12:29:20

    Hi Tadua, I have to commend you on reviewing these false articles of the Jehovah's Witnesses it has to be getting pretty boring. It's always the same old thing 'Obey the GB or else". First of all they have no clue what a spiritual person is nor should they be giving advice to anyone about it. I got one question and it is: When have they ever made one statement or prediction that has proved to be true? In fact everything they have ever claimed turned out to be false, plain and simple! COUNTERFEIT is what they started as and there's no way for them to change that fact. An artificial Christ is what they are portraying and they cannot fake it anymore although they keep trying. (Jn 5:41)

  • Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-22 15:52:54

    Aren’t the articles getting predictable. This mini series on spirituality, as you have said Tadua, fails to focus on real spiritual qualities, but instead promotes the usual field ministry as a sign of being a spiritual person. Yet those who are really hungering for truth, in line with Matthew 5:3 remain basically underfed.
    Jesus spoke in illustrations, so that those with the wrong heart attitude would hear but not understand, but those with the right attitude would no doubt approach Jesus himself and gain explanations (although I must admit that there are some parts of the Gospels which are tail unclear). Today, if a Witness does not understand, he is fed lame answers which he cannot get clarified, no matter how hard he tries. I have personally written in on some subjects more than once, and not one straight answer has been sent to any spiritual question, from which I conclude that the GB do not want people to use their powers of reason, nor do they really wish to be guided by the truth.

  • Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-04-22 16:20:46

    What was their aim of joining the UN as an NGO? As an outsider, I can only assume that they went inside the beast to give it it's 7th or 10th horn. If you can recall, just before and right after exiting the beast, they had a complete overhaul and restructuring of the GB and WTBTS of NY and Pa, the whole worldwide organization and "SIMILAR COOPERATING CORPORATIONS" of the Jehovah's Witnesses. (Please see "The Resolution" W/T Nov 1963 pages 684-687)*
    They are sitting side by side with the one that "sits upon many waters" they are starting to show their drunkenness from the wine of the Great Whore.
    Any and all corrections or disputes with this outsiders view would be most welcome.

    Note: this comment has been edited*

    • Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-22 22:23:26

      Just as a friendly reminder: it was right around the same time that they entered the beast that they were forbidden by law to charge for their literature (1992). Coincidental? Conspiracy theory? Only if your still in!

      • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-27 08:39:31

        I didn't think they were forbidden, the problem was that they were going to be taxed for it. The minute they thought they were going to be taxed, they made literature a voluntary donation. By doing that and avoiding taxes, they also avoided having their accounts scrutinized and audited by the government.

        • Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-27 10:28:38

          Yes Robert, you are correct they were forbidden to sell it without being taxed. The same thing that brought down the Jimmy Swaggart ministry. The WT was siding with Swaggart in that case.

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-22 23:13:58

      As I understand it, the main reason WT became an NGO was to have political clout, "standing" and a "place at the table". They needed this to argue cases before various governments, mainly in Europe, so they could push for changes to laws regarding religious freedom, etc. This is different from filing lawsuits like they did in the US. That was merely petitioning the government like anyone could. The NGO relationship enabled them to act as a political presence, to try to affect other governments by political means instead by legal means. In doing so, they were very literally becoming part of the world - the very thing they publicly preached against.

      There is a word for that; it begins with H if I recall ...

  • Comment by wild olive on 2018-04-22 19:34:43

    Thanks Tad for the work on this article that can only be described as a huge load of Taurus exretia.
    I in fact for many years I fitted the "Robert" in the article, I just kept doubling down , working as hard as I could to be" spiritual ", it was when I became an elder that I could no longer keep it up, because now, the decisions I made affected people's lives , and often , very badly.
    Ime personally convinced the "Robert " in the article is entirely fictitious, as are many of the "experiences" , they are just so much of the same , and the outcomes are always the same, no one ever fails. Just too good to be true.
    At the moment the cong that I attend occasionally is been rocked by a controversy over an engagement party, it is polarising people in a most unexpected way , I had a chat to one of the elders, and he said with a sad look on his face" it's happening everywhere " , maybe this band aid article will help for a short time, I do notice the ones who stay away and are "unspiritual" seem to be the ones who have their lives together, one in fact is my friend, he has a lot of "worldly" friends and associates, we go sailing together every Friday , and it's always a blast, but I guess enjoying life is not on the agenda of the writers of WT articles.

  • Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-04-23 07:47:37

    "Keep walking by the spirit"! One thing I have noticed on a personal level is that
    some of the older Witnesses are not letting their younger ones participate in all the gatherings with the friends and are really keeping a close eye on them. Back in my day as long as you were with fellow JW's their was no problems. Now, oh how times have changed, so many not trusting the other ones. There seems to be several classes of Witnesses now, old school, new wave, and those that are somewhere caught between lost and found. Take for instance my sister, she is a few years older than me and has been baptized since being a teenager, she loves the "truth" but doesn't like the org much anymore, although she is still loyal. Well not long ago she had been absent from the meetings for a couple few months and she informed me that a couple elders were coming by her house to give her a pep talk so to speak, and to encourage her to get back to the meetings. (they have a name for this but I can't recall what it is at the moment).
    I being who I am told her that she knew more than they do and that she should do as her heart tells her to do. Of course she went back to the meetings for a little while and is now missing them again, she only goes out in service every once in a blue moon, maybe twice a year, whatever it takes to keep your active status. I really do believe that things are not making any sense to her anymore and it won't be long before she is totally awake, time will tell. I hope and pray that she will soon be walking by the spirit again and not sleeping by the Org.

  • Comment by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-23 12:04:56

    It took me some time before I understood why Satan in Matthew 4 was misusing the scriptures, since he seemed to have accurately quoted Psalm 91. We could assume that merely because Satan was Satan, anything he did was wrong, or we could assume that not putting God to the test was the more important principle, as Jesus also quoted correctly. But, there was more to it than that.

    The main problem is that Satan quoted the scriptures out of context. The verse in Psalms applied to the nation of Israel as a whole, and not to any one individual. Psalms says that the righteous would not suffer from pestilence or dying from an invading army. But, individual Israelites did suffer those things, even faithful ones.

    Psalms was making a promise of divine protection to the nation, not to individuals. Besides, the scenario portrayed by Satan in which Jesus was to intentionally put his life in danger would put God to the test by effectively ordering Him to save Jesus, and doing that would be disrespectful.

    As I see it, WT is guilty of the same faults as Satan in Matthew 4, by taking scriptures out of context, and intentionally putting their followers in jeopardy for unscriptural reasons.

  • Comment by Joseph Anton on 2018-04-23 15:44:42

    You'd be hard pressed to find any meeting go by where the book of Proverbs isn't quoted. And yet Solomon's one of the Org's favorite bad examples. A man that was allowed to write three books of the Holy Scriptures and design and build God's original temple. His three books have also been in print, without revision for around 3,000 years. I'm still waiting for the organization's literature to break a decade.

  • Comment by John of ARC on 2018-04-23 17:00:33

    Thanks for the well written article, Tadua.

    I was particularly taken by your assessment of “disputes”. In the org, it is not uncommon that those with power harm those without (“orphans and widows”). Subsequently, those being harmed are expected to forgive and shove the problem under the carpet, not to create a fuss.
    Not long ago, a PIMI invited me out for a few beers. He suffered gross injustice and abuse from his step-father (who was an elder at the time) growing up. He goes on to tell me how he has spent years working to get past the bitterness, and “how the story about Uriah helped him”. According to his logic ( likely instilled by the org), JWs today who suffer injustice in the congregation should accept injustice in the truth, because Jehovah let David off the hook wrt. Uriah, and Uriah’s family just had to accept it. So should we! I have also similarly been served the story about Josef: because he suffered injustice from the hands of his brothers and he forgave them, so should we.
    I find such false analogies, which the WT teach, offending to victims of abuse for the following reasons: 1. victims (as the friend I discussed the subject with), has very often not been offered a full apology from the abuser. 2. Very often, the victim must accept the situation despite that the abuser does not display repentance. 3. In the case of David, he was not let off the hook: it became publicly known what he had done (I.e. he had a verdict from Jehovah: guilty. The verdict being the most important satisfaction for the abused, not the sentence. JWs seem to mix up the two). He also lost his first born with Bathsheba.

    As you commented, Tadua, sometimes we need to make an issue of things. Public, if needed. Like Paul said in 2 Chor 11:20,21: “In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!”

  • Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-25 17:43:53

    Yes, guess which baptism question will not be discussed ? (Unless I have missed something).

  • Comment by Smoldering Wick on 2018-04-26 00:52:50

    When I first began studying with Jehovah’s Witnesses there was no other religion. They instilled in me both the Bible and ability to separate truth from doctrine. Yes, I am still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses but I worry about those who are now leading us. So why am I here today? Because I’m smoldering—hence my pseudonym. Getting to the point of our last Watchtower study and this one coming, I am fully aware of the first 3 chapters of Paul’s 1st letter to Corinth wherein he concludes, “If anyone among you thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, so that he may become wise.” (3:18)

    Well, I don’t know about the rest of you but I know what got hammered into me repeatedly was 1 Co.1:10, “Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

    Now, over 50 years later, I am still hearing this read out of context, telling Jehovah’s Witnesses the opposite of what Paul was driving at. Am I not as much a spiritual man for my understanding Paul’s words? Why else did he say in vss 14 & 15, “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crisʹpus and Gaʹius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name?” Can I not see that Paul was against following men? If he were here listening to us now would he not be shaking his head over our rejection of his counsel? Am I a physical man to be examined by them because I agree with Paul that we should all “have the mind of Christ?” (1 Co. 2:14-16)

    “So, brothers,” I now say, repeating Paul’s words through the rest of chapter 3, Am I not able to see that these are fleshly counselors presuming to speak to us, not “as to spiritual men, but as to fleshly men, as to infants in Christ,” when I am just as much a spiritual man as they claim to be? Are they “not acting like mere men?” (1 Co. 3:1-4)

    Why does Paul conclude then, “If anyone among you thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it is written: ‘He catches the wise in their own cunning.’ And again: ‘Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.’ So let no one boast in men; for all things belong to you, whether Paul or A·polʹlos or Ceʹphas or the world or life or death or things now here or things to come, all things belong to you; in turn you belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:18-23)

    How much longer must we remain “separated from Christ” because they want us united by them at the expense of Christ? (Galatians 5:4)


    • Reply by John of ARC on 2018-04-26 04:42:32

      I think you express well how many of us feel, SW.

      After I had woken and lost faith in the leadership, I read Ray Franz’ books. I realized that what I think is one of the main causes of the problems (accumulation and utilization of power by men, not Christ) that caused me to awake was nothing new. Ray witnessed it in the 70ties, as with Penton and others. The likes of Olin Moyle and Salter noticed it in the early 40ies. Those who left after the 1914&25 fiascos, calling the bluffs, the same. Every time, the leadership called them evil slaves and apostates.

      So what is really new under the sun? Communication and information availability with the Internet make it much harder for the GB to stem the tide from people freely being able to discuss doctrines and access historical facts. As on this forum. Also, the forces of publicity prevents the GB to shove problems that are too big to avoid the larger society’s scrutiny under the rug; child abuse in particular, eroding their integrity.

      So what to do? I find comfort in realizing that we are united as Christians by recognizing Christ as our head. Recognizing that salvation is not through a visible organization resonates well with what Jesus told The Samaritan woman in John 4:

      20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
      21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
      22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
      23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
      24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

      • Reply by Smoldering Wick on 2018-04-27 18:56:02

        Since all good reads are considered apostate, all the more reason we must keep our mouths shut and quietly resign our positions of so-called oversight while walking a more lonely trail of Truth.

        20 years ago I gave up all authority so that I could take on a more loving role and never again sit on the judgement seat of organizational structure. I only hope and pray that more might hear this message so that the spiritual man will actually exist in the hearts of those hearing it. Indeed the time is coming, perhaps not now but in years to come when Christ does arrive a second time as promised, he will separate the physical from the truly spiritual.

        May you all have peace,


      • Reply by wild olive on 2018-04-27 21:25:18

        Hi JofA liked your comment, I also came to the realisation that what's gone on since Russell started the movement is nothing new,we are just seeing a cycle that's been repeated many times before, the problem was our narrow perception of what truth is,and the misunderstood strangle hold that the org has on it.
        Paul's words at Act 20:29&30 are as relevant now as the day he spoke them 19 centuries ago.

    • Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-26 09:59:55

      Thank you S/M, Leonardo, and John for expressing your feelings.
      The people of the Jehovah's Witnesses are some of the greatest people on this Earth. The sad thing is that you guys have to come here to this site and others for refreshment. The leadership is what is pushing most people away.
      The bright side is that very soon I think that Jehovah is gonna have his son push the corrupt leadership out of the way so that the faithful followers of the Word of God can be themselves like it was truly intended to be. Always remember that Jehovah is the reader of hearts and in the end that is all that matters. These basic truths are what unite rather than divide the peoples of the world. I truly hope that you all are not feeling any shame by doing what you are doing. The shame is laying in the Governing Body's hands not yours.

      (1 Co 15:11 older NWT): However, whether it is I or they, so we are preaching
      and so you have believed.

  • Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-26 08:54:04

    Thank you for your thoughts SW and John. SW, Like you I am still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I have to be my own man too. It takes courage and tact to speak up and I know it carries risks.
    However, as you say John, we must worship with spirit and truth. Yes we could get out altogether, and that may be a solution for some, and it may be what I do eventually, but I am not sure it allows us to worship Jehovah any better (unless you are doing something positive like young Eric here).
    Therefore what keeps me going is a continual search for truth, and seizing the opportunity to talk about it with any who will listen. Remember, Jesus spoke most critically to the religious leaders of his day. They deserved it, although they could not take it. Elders do not know what to do when we express doubts, and when we speak in line with scripture, and I definitely know a lot more in the nearly 3 years I have been trawling around this site.
    Maybe our straight and honest reasoning over God’s word will help others take note of the truth.

    • Reply by John of ARC on 2018-04-26 09:49:55

      For the record, I am not df/da. I am however reluctant to present myself as a JW. Why? Because I have come to realize that the Org is really the extended arm of the GB, and I cannot in good conscience lend my integrity to them. If I attend meetings, will I not quietly recommend others to do and preach what I hold as wrong (like not answering the phone when a df’ed child calls)? If I DA, I cut myself off any way to act as an influence JWs, because they still socialize with me. And it would be a burden to pimi family. However, I respect your choice of being “in”. Furthermore, I guess what we decide to do on this matter is also tied up to our personal experiences. As I have seen and experienced so much bad things in a supposedly spiritual paradise, my choice is to stay away for now. As a man with family responsibility, I also feel I need to set an example not to lead my child into what I perceive to be a sect which seeks to control too many aspects of its life, and to submit it to rulings of men.

      You rise an important question: How do we whorship Jehovah being outside of the org? I am still searching for a good answer, and I think Eric has posted some good articles on the subject. For now, I try to live up to James 1:27 and present myself as a Christian and tell about the with hope that entails to people. If I get the chance. I also feel a much greater personal responsibility as a Christian being “out”, and it feels like I am taking back a relationship with Christ that has been subdued by being a JW.
      I am interested in knowing how others on this forum view this issue.

      • Reply by Menrov on 2018-04-28 04:00:48

        This question that was raised: "You rise an important question: How do we worship Jehovah being outside of the org?" No offense but I really believe this is the wrong question. Because the question already assumes that YHWH is worshipped in the WT organisation. What makes one say that once that person finds out what happens in the organisation, what incorrect doctrines are imposed on its followers and how the organisation treats our Lord? I dare to say your question should be: do I need to associate with a religious organisation in order to worship? The answer: Joh 4:23 But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers.
        In other words, true worship is a lifestyle. See life of Jesus. One can perfectly worship without being in a religious organisation. I might say, quite the opposite. To have the scriptures and love for one another and act accordingly, have faith in Jesus and one will do just fine:
        Jam. 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion (religious worship) before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their adversity and to keep oneself unstained by the world. You do not need a religious organization to tell you this (it is in the scriptures) and to do this.

        • Reply by John of ARC on 2018-04-28 06:16:32

          I agree to that, and it was not my intention that my question should assume that “pure” worship is made en-masse in the org. Particularly so, realizing 1919 doctrine is dead as a dodo imo.
          My question is more about how you set yourself mentally up to start anew, also managing a situation souroundes with pimi family and freiends (who will shun you if you go too far too soon in what you say). As Eric aptly put it in his video: the gps is broken, and we go back using maps and compasses. A bit difficult starting out at first.

    • Reply by wild olive on 2018-04-27 22:31:23

      Yes Leonardo, be your own man in Christ first, then what ever happens after that is Jehovah's will. In hindsight too many JWs are in because they want to feel good about themselves, and this included me, they are actually worshiping the structure that's been created in Jehovah's name. Many of the faithful actually shouldn't even be going door to door, they truly aren't qualified to do so, and I mean that from a biblical point of view , not an organisational one, many of them have lives that are complete chaos , and the ministry is a way of excusing their lack of having put on Christ, which the leadership have misled them into. In other words their own backyard is a mess spiritually.The last thing you would want is to be like that again, don't you think?

    • Reply by Menrov on 2018-04-28 04:11:16

      You said "Yes we could get out altogether, and that may be a solution for some, and it may be what I do eventually, but I am not sure it allows us to worship Jehovah any better (unless you are doing something positive like young Eric here)." Does the WT or any other religious organisation ONLY teach truth? If not, why support such an organisation? Who do you really serve doing that? Our Creator? Our Lord? or the organisation you associate with? Did Jesus ever indicate that we will be save through an organisation? Is there anything at all in the teachings of Jesus that indicates that one can only worship through association with an organisation? If Rev. 18:4 refers to all religion, it is clear what to do?? Does these verses in Rev. 18 indicate to go to another organisation? I can see people like to come together and work together. But worship does not depend on that. to Show love to your neighbour does not depend on that. Yes, I know (I am inactive) how hard it can be to disassociate from the WT for many. But at the same time, I can tell you that Jesus words are true: the truth will set you free.

      • Reply by John of ARC on 2018-04-28 06:06:08

        Appreciate your comment, Menrov.
        I am “inactive” as well, as defined by the WT. I appreciate the hard work Eric and his associates have done to create this great site, and all the reasearch they have done and published. However, I don’t think it is necessary, or constructive for that matter, that all of us who are not “in” need to start our own YouTube channel and mass publish our thinking for it to be considered that we do something positive. I think it risks creating a digital, cacophony of religious babble. Better to support the likes of Eric and Tadua, as long as we as individuals consider them to be in accordance with the Bible. And as there is constructive and open discussions here, I am certain that the odds are good for that.
        I think the first and most important thing we do as Christians is to be a positive Christian force for people close to us: family, friends and people we meet f2f in all walks of life. I also appreciate that we can meet at this forum to share thought and experiences, and continue build each other up as Christians. And it’s great group therapy for both pimos and pomos :-) hang in there, all!

        Ps: one day, I might write a book. For now, I realized nine months ago that Ray Franz has already written about most things that I had on my mind.

      • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-28 07:43:27

        All the things they tell you do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds (Matthew 23:3). That is about how it is while we are still in, basically because of family members. We listen to a lot, take only what is true to heart, and get a lot more truth from our personal study of the Bible than we will get from a meeting, and take everything else with a pinch of salt. But doing so keeps us on our toes. Don't forget that this site here is based around the spiritual food provided by the Watchtower and carefully sifting through this is providing us with better real spiritual food than we got before.
        Fight the fine fight as best you can, but never compromise on truth.

        • Reply by John of ARC on 2018-04-28 08:53:39

          Commentaries on this forum is based on the WT predominantly because almost all of us here have (or have had) some sort of affiliation with the WT. Not because the WT is the original truth or the benchmark. The Bible is. We need to start somewhere, and people usually start up quite close to where they were “born”.
          From that, and also respecting that most of our belief is built is built on the Bible, we are still WT-centric. Its thinking and culture are part of us in ways we may not discern. I think this is because the WT is not only a religion. It’s a cult, exercising its powers not only with control mechanisms, but also with cultural hegemony and creating detachment from “the world”, so that we are unconsciously wary or reluctant to use other sources.
          Some day, a happy day, we will no longer refer to the Watchtower at all, but only to the Bible, God and Christ.
          What you say above I feel resonates with what WT have said many times: “We have taught you “the Truth”, so your loyalty belongs to us. Only we can tell you what you should belief and how you can approach God”. Consequently, they seem to argue that they can state what Paul said:

          1 Chor 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16I urge you, then, be imitators of me. 17That is why I sent you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church.

          Can they? Are the GB my fathers in Christ? Should I imitate them? If so I cannot be at this forum, as I would be disloyal (also against Christ). If I err in my reasoning, please explain how.
          If the approach you describe above is true, we could go into almost any church/denomination, listen and try to do the sifting we feel is required. Would that be right?
          I still think these issues are difficult, and hope I don’t come across as argumentative. Still searching.

          • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-28 17:09:22

            Sorry John, the last thing I was suggesting was that we are getting good spiritual food from JW.Org. I do not like most of what is being served up either by WT, otherwise i would not be here, which I need to be for my sanity.

            • Reply by John of ARC on 2018-04-28 18:13:55

              No need to apologize, Leo. I guess I need to justify (most of all for my self) why I don’t attend meetings and you need to justify why you do (“...still in, basically because of family members”). Nevertheless, we are both in the same boat :-) thanks for good discussion and your comments. enjoy rest of weekend :-)

              • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-29 16:04:17

                Ta muchly. graciously put.

  • Comment by Smoldering Wick on 2018-04-27 00:08:28

    Thank you Leonardo, PB, John, IOIHAB and all I may have missed. Please don’t get me wrong. I understand why Eric is out of the closet and I blame none who aren't. I can only look back over my own 50 years and say that all of you need to be the best at what you choose to be.

    I joined Jehovah’s Witnesses as a result of a vow I made because of my own revelation. Not that my revelation was as profound as Paul’s, but escaping a drug-infested world after meeting the devil during a hallucinogenic moment, I did make such a vow. However, unlike Paul, I was uneducated in matters of faith and had no notion of Bible truth. Nor did I understand the religious corruption of Judaism or Christendom. All I knew was Proverbs 18:10: “The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous one runs and receives protection.”

    Therefore, since I was also in no way righteous, I disconnected from my family and all formerly ‘bad, worldly’ associates. Even then, after meeting those raised ‘in the truth’, and being invited to their ‘truth parties’ after they heard my experiences at meetings, assemblies and conventions, I vowed never to raise my children (if I might have any), with such attitudes. After all, since the world was soon coming to an end, I was now too focused on my missionary objectives. Getting married and having children wasn’t even in the equation. Did I really know the difference between what was physical and spiritual then? Do I know better now?

    All I can say is that I continued to preach, teach and convert some while rising through the ranks only to discover and wonder why the children I never imagined having were growing to become what I had so blatantly determined not to raise them to be. So now that ‘the world or life or death or things now here or things to come and all other things belong to me,’ (as Paul summated) I have ‘become a fool, so as to become wise and belong to Christ in the same way as he has always belonged to God.’ (1Co. 3:18-23)

    Maybe, then just maybe, I might teach one grandchild of mine to follow me as I might better follow the Christ.


  • Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-04-27 10:47:53

    Who is in charge? Jehovah's Witnesses know that their responsibility to preach does NOT depend on the operation of the Watch Tower Society or any OTHER legal corporation.
    "Let the Watch Tower Society be forbidden and it's Branch offices be forcibly closed down by state interference!..... This order takes precedence over that of ANY men" ( "The Watchtower", December 15, 1949). Also restated in the Proclaimers book page 674 top left corner. Also restated here for your reference.


  • Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-04-28 09:37:20

    But I will deliver thee in that day, saith the Lord: and thou shalt not be given into the hand of the men of whom thou art afraid. (Je 39:17)

Recent content

Hello everyone. This is the second to last video in this series on shunning. Thank you for your patience as it has taken a while to get to this point. For those of you who haven’t seen the previous videos on shunning as…

Hello, everyone. I have something truly bizarre to share with you this time. It comes from a rather innocuous place, the July 2024 letter from the Governing Body to all the elders in North America and, I assume, around…

Statement by Brother Joss Goodall To My Brother and Sisters, I am writing to you to bring to your attention some very serious concerns that have been troubling me since August of last year when I listened to a morning worship video by Kenneth…

Jesus said that “the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.” (John 4:23 BSB) Are you one of the people that God is seeking to worship Him? Maybe you’re thinking, “I…

In this video we will continue our analysis of the gaslighting methods used by the Governing Body to induce a hypnotic grip on the hearts and minds of Jehovah’s Witnesses. This time we’ll be covering a talk delivered by Gage Fleegle on called…

[This contributed letter does not necessarily reflect all the views of our community. We post it here as a service to those who seek to worship God "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:20-24)] AN OPEN LETTER TO THE GOVERNING BODY OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES…