[From ws3/18 p. 23 – May 21 – May 26]
“Those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines.” Hebrews 12:6
This entire Watchtower study article and the one that for the following week seem designed to reinforce the authority of elders handling judicial reproofs, disfellowshipping, and disassociation—though many of the arguments are made in a more subtle way than usual.
“WHEN you hear the word “discipline,” what comes to mind? Perhaps you immediately think of punishment, but much more is involved. In the Bible, discipline is often presented in an appealing light, at times alongside knowledge, wisdom, love, and life. (Prov. 1:2-7; 4:11-13)” - par. 1
Why might we “immediately think of punishment”? Probably because that is the inference carried with most mentions of ‘discipline’ in the literature of the Organization, including the way Bible verses have been translated in the NWT.
Discipline often includes chastisement which is unpleasant whether deserved or not. However, when we look at the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words often translated in the NWT as ‘discipline’, we find that ‘instruction’ is often a better fit given the context. It is also far more commonly used by other translators. A quick review of 26 translations on Biblehub shows the following:
For instance the passage of Proverbs 1:2-7.
- Verse 2 is translated as ‘instruction’ or like wording 20 times and ‘discipline’ and like wording, only 6 times.
- Verse 3 has ‘instruction’, 23 times of 26.
- Verse 5 has ‘guidance’, 9 times and ‘counsel’, 14 times.
- Verse 7 has ‘instruction’, 19 times and ‘discipline,’ 7 times.
- Verse 8 has ‘instruction’, 23 times and ‘discipline’, 3 times.
Proverbs 4:13 has ‘instruction’, 24 times and ‘discipline’, 2 times.
So, in these 6 verses, in 5 out of 6 places the NWT has ‘discipline’ whereas the average translation would have the reverse, in 5 out of 6 places it would have ‘instruction’.
Other Proverbs where ‘discipline’ is found the NWT, we see a similar use of ‘instruction’ in most other translations. We are not making the suggestion that translating the Hebrew as ‘discipline’ is necessarily wrong, but ‘instruction’ carries a softer connotation in English as it excludes the punishment aspect that ‘discipline’ has and in most places gives a clearer and more accurate understanding based on the context. Could it be that the overuse of ‘discipline’ to translate these words indicates some vested interest on the part of the Organization?
The first paragraph continues: “God’s discipline is an expression of his love for us and of his desire that we gain everlasting life. (Hebrews 12:6)”
The Greek word translated ‘discipline’ means to instruct by training, from a root meaning of ‘a child under development with strict training’. (See paideuó)
It is very true that God trains us and instructs us through his word. However, can it be accurately said that God corrects us? After all that would imply he sees us doing wrong and then communicates to us that we are doing wrong and lets us know what we should be doing. There is no scriptural evidence that this happens on an individual basis, but we can be trained and instructed as we read and meditate on God’s Word. We then may realize if we are humble enough that we need to correct ourselves because we learn that maybe something we have done or thought or are thinking of doing is not in accord with God’s thinking.
One could argue that God is ultimately responsible for the correction and hence is disciplining us. However, given that he has created us with free will, and he wants us to correct ourselves willingly, then would this be a reasonable conclusion? Indeed, this understanding of the meaning of the word translated 'discipline' is admitted in the final sentence when it says “Indeed, the meaning behind “discipline” primarily relates to education, such as that involved in raising a beloved child.” (par. 1)
In terms of the chastisement or punishment aspect of discipline Jehovah has meted it out on the world of Noah’s day, Egypt with the 10 plagues, the nation of Israel on many occasions and so forth but rarely on individuals.
The mixed messages continue when the article goes on to say “As members of the Christian congregation, we are part of God’s household. (1 Tim. 3:15)” (par. 3)
God's household consists of his children, the anointed. Nowhere in scripture does it speak of a group of God's friends who are members of this household. This is one of those occasions when the teachers of the Organization attempt to have their cake and eat it too. They want the "other sheep" to consider themselves as one of the members of God's household while also recognizing that they are outsiders.
“We therefore respect Jehovah’s right both to set standards and to give loving discipline when we violate them. Moreover, if our actions caused unpleasant consequences, his discipline would remind us of just how important it is to listen to our heavenly Father. (Galatians 6:7)” - (par. 3)
Just the same as for the opening paragraph, no mechanism for Jehovah disciplining us has been satisfactorily explained. Yes, Jehovah gives us instructions and guidance through his word, but discipline? That is not clear. The cited scripture shows the consequences of a course of action, rather than any direct action by Jehovah to chastise us. What is even more interesting is that Hebrews 12:5-11 which is talking about discipline (Here, the Greek word actually does convey instruction and chastisement, and therefore is correctly translated ‘discipline’.) is not mentioned once in this article. Furthermore it is talking about how Jehovah disciplines us as sons. When training a child, chastisement is a last resort if the training and reasoning fail. If we as imperfect humans reason this way, surely our loving Creator would avoid chastisement wherever possible. Hebrews 12:7 says “God is dealing with YOU as with sons. For what son is he that a father does not discipline?” Maybe that is the reason Hebrews 12 is not cited in the article, because it would mean admitting we are ‘sons of God’, rather than ‘friends of God’. After all, what Father has authority to discipline his friends?
If you ever had a Bible study or studied the Bible with a child of your own, do you ever remember doing the following: “giving Scriptural discipline”, so you could “help your child or a Bible student to reach the goal of becoming a follower of Christ”? (par. 4) Or did you instead give them scriptural instruction? As parents we have scriptural authority to chastise our minor children when they do wrong, but a Bible study conductor has no such scriptural authority. Even 2 Timothy 3:16 quoted as “disciplining in righteousness” is translated as “instructing in righteousness” in most other translations.
At the end of paragraph 4 the following questions are raised to be discussed and you will notice the desire to emphasise ‘discipline’ instead of ‘instruction’ comes out strongly. We will see some reasons why, later in the article.
The questions raised are:
- How does God’s discipline reflect his love for us?
- What can we learn from those whom God disciplined in the past?
- When we give discipline, how can we imitate Jehovah and his Son?”
God Disciplines in Love
Paragraph 5 under this heading starts to reveal why the Organization uses “discipline” instead of “instruction”. After saying, “Rather, Jehovah dignifies us, appealing to the goodness in our heart and respecting our free will”, they go on to say, “Is that how you view God’s discipline, whether it comes through his Word, Bible-based publications, Christian parents, or congregation elders? Indeed, elders who try to readjust us in a mild and loving manner when we take “a false step,” perhaps unknowingly, reflect Jehovah’s love for us.—Galatians 6:1”
So there we have it. It seems the whole thrust of the article is to give weight to the authority imposed by the Organization through its publications and the elder arrangement. The scripture appealed to for this, Galatians 6:1, even has an additional word “qualifications” inserted to add weight to this interpretation in the NWT. Most translations however render this verse along the same lines as the NLT “Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.” Notice there is no mention of “qualifications” or “elders” or “discipline”. Rather, it is the duty of all godly believers to gently remind a fellow believer if they have made a false step unawares. However, no authority is granted to administer discipline to ensure that happens. A godly believer's responsibility ends after making the person aware of the false step he has made, because as Galatians 6:4-5 make clear “For each one will carry his own load [or responsibility]”.
Paragraph 6 carries on in this same vein of thought, that somehow elders have authority to discipline as it says, “if more serious sins are involved, it may include a loss of privileges in the congregation.”
Now, it is true someone committing serious sins puts himself in a difficult position with other fellow believers, but let us think for just one moment. In the first century congregation were there “privileges” that were given and potentially taken away? The Scriptures are silent on this matter, so it seems very unlikely. For a brother or sister in today’s congregation to suffer a loss of privileges, implies someone has authority to give the privileges and take them away. These ‘privileges’ today include pioneering, handling microphones, answering up at meetings, giving talks and so forth. None of these “privileges” existed in the 1st century congregation otherwise there would have been instructions given by the apostles to a group (e.g. older men) vested with authority as to how the rest of the congregation would qualify for same. This did not take place.
“A loss of privileges, for example, can help a person to realise how important it is for him to focus more on personal Bible study, meditation and prayer.” - (par. 6)
So does “a loss of privileges” mean instruction or chastisement? It’s the latter. Yet, so far in this article, no scriptural basis for authority for chastisement or discipline of any members of a Christian congregation has been provided.
In the next paragraph, (7) the support for the current disfellowshipping arrangement is slipped in when it says “Even disfellowshipping reflects Jehovah’s love, for it protects the congregation from bad influences.(1 Corinthians 5:6-7,11)”. 1 Corinthians was written to the entire congregation, not just the elders. (1 Corinthians 1:1-2). It was the entire congregation who were requested to stop keeping company with ones purporting to be Christian brothers but who continued to practice sexual immorality, were greedy, idolaters, revilers, drunkards or extortioners, not even eating with them.
The Greek word, sunanamignumi, translated “keeping company” means ‘to mix up together closely (to influence), or to associate intimately with’. Note the indications of ‘closely’ and ‘intimately’. If we have a close friend we would spend a lot of time in close companionship, perhaps intimate time. This type of relationship is quite different from someone who is an acquaintance. However, not sharing intimate company with someone is a lot different from shunning someone, refusing to speak to them at all, even answering an urgent telephone call from them.
Paragraphs 8-11 deal with the account of Shebna. However, so much is supposition. For instance “Might this not suggest that Shebna did not give way to bitterness and resentment but instead humbly accepted his lesser responsibilities? If so, what lessons can we learn from the account?” (par. 8)
There is absolutely no indication in the Scriptures that this was the case. The only facts we have are that he was removed from his office as steward of Hezekiah’s household and later is recorded as being secretary. How can we learn lessons from a fictitious conclusion as to Shebna’s thinking? Surely any lessons drawn from supposition are purely make-believe? The fact that they have to go with this account and engage in supposition indicates just how weak their case is.
- Lesson 1 is “pride is before a crash” (Proverbs 16:18). - (par. 9)
- “If you have privileges in the congregation, perhaps with a measure of prominence, will you strive to maintain a humble view of yourself?” Pride can indeed lead to a crash. But maybe there would not be such a need for this lesson if there were no “privileges in the congregation”, and no “measure of prominence” attached to them. However, at least this is a valid lesson unlike the following two lessons.
- Lesson 2 “Second in strongly reproving Shebna, Jehovah may have been showing that he did not consider Shebna beyond recovery.” - (par. 10)
- So now the Watchtower article writer is trying to read Jehovah God’s mind as to why he reproved him. 1 Corinthians 2:16 reminds us “For ‘who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?’ But we do have the mind of Christ”. So attempting to read Jehovah’s motive without any other facts is fraught with danger. The article continues on to draw a fictitious lesson from this assumption by saying, “What a fine lesson for those who lose privileges of service in God’s congregation today! Instead of being angry and resentful, may they continue to serve God....In their new situation, viewing the discipline as evidence of Jehovah’s love.... (Read 1 Peter 5:6-7)”.
So, the conclusion they draw from this fictitious lesson is that no matter how one is treated, if one loses privileges in the congregation for any reason, one should treat it as “evidence of Jehovah’s love”? I am sure that doesn’t sit well with the likely thousands of elders and ministerial servants who have been unjustly removed when they fell foul of those many elders who do not maintain a humble view of themselves. Lesson 2 only serves the Organization's purpose of trying to retain credibility of the elder arrangement as it is today, which has been clearly shown not to be spirit directed.
- So now the Watchtower article writer is trying to read Jehovah God’s mind as to why he reproved him. 1 Corinthians 2:16 reminds us “For ‘who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?’ But we do have the mind of Christ”. So attempting to read Jehovah’s motive without any other facts is fraught with danger. The article continues on to draw a fictitious lesson from this assumption by saying, “What a fine lesson for those who lose privileges of service in God’s congregation today! Instead of being angry and resentful, may they continue to serve God....In their new situation, viewing the discipline as evidence of Jehovah’s love.... (Read 1 Peter 5:6-7)”.
- “Lesson 3” “Jehovah’s treatment of Shebna provides a valuable lesson for those who are authorized to administer discipline, such as parents and Christian overseers” - (par. 10)
- Thus far no evidence has been presented that shows that Christian overseers are authorized administer discipline.
So we will assist by pointing to the implications of Hebrews 6:5-11 and Proverbs 19:18, Proverbs 29:17. These scriptures can be taken as authorisation for parents; however finding one authorising Christian overseers to administer discipline has proved impossible. Perhaps a reader might oblige if such a scripture exists.
- Thus far no evidence has been presented that shows that Christian overseers are authorized administer discipline.
When Giving Discipline, Imitate God and Christ
“Likewise, those divinely authorized to give discipline must themselves continue to submit willingly to Jehovah’s guidance.” - (par. 15)
There is no cited scripture showing the divine authorization. We should pause to consider why this is? Is it because such a scripture does not exist, but they want you to believe that it does? The article repeats this assertion again without proof when it says, “All who are authorized to give Scriptural discipline are wise when they imitate Christ’s example”. (par. 17)
The scripture cited shortly after is 1 Peter 5:2-4 which says “Be shepherds of God's flock that is among you, watching over them not out of compulsion, but because it is God's will; not out of greed, but out of eagerness”. (BSB)
You will note that care is evident in these words. The word translated shepherding conveys the meaning of guarding or protecting, and guiding (like instructing) but there is no hint of chastisement or discipline in the meaning. Likewise “watching over them” means ‘look at with real caring concern’, quite a different understanding from the 2013 NWT which says “serving as overseers” again clearly an attempt to bolster the Organization’s authority.
As part of the concluding comments, the article says:
“Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that Jehovah’s discipline teaches us how to live together forever in peace and harmony as a family under his fatherly care. (Read Isaiah 11:9)” - (par. 19)
In reply we say, "No so! It is an exaggeration." Instead, it is Jehovah’s instructions that teach us how to live together in peace and harmony. It is following our heavenly Father's instructions given through his beloved Son, Jesus, that will save our lives. It is not by undergoing discipline and chastisement from Organizationally appointed (not spirit appointed) elders.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Kennedy Dafeakeh on 2018-05-20 13:32:01
These guys are great spin masters and puppeteers.
I really appreciate the analysis, it really exposed some of the method to the madness and mental programming carried out in "organised" religion.
I would however like to point out that preoccupying ourselves with JW teaching is somewhat similar to the way JWs were preoccupying themselves with the doctrines and conduct of the Catholic Church in years past.
Since we've left "place" (JW organisation) for "person" (Jesus Christ), wouldn't it be more profitable for us to be more involved with the beautiful teachings and promises of our Lord Jesus Christ and reveling in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in our individual lives?
Especially with regards to his commandments and promises affect our lifestyle and how we approach and deal with daily challenges.
Methinks that those who are keenly listening for the voice of Christ (within the JW and other "organised" religions) would clearly recognize the difference in the voice and spirit speaking through us, from that of the oppressive wolves they've subjected themselves to for years.
I would also suggest a question forum where we can contribute questions regarding challenges we individually face and get exhortation from our brothers and sisters around the world.
I personally have so many questions I would love contributions on.
One of them is about the time limitation on manifestation of gifts of the spirit.
But I digress.
Apologies everyone. Thanks to the writers and the admins of this site.
More thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ for keeping his word that those who seek will find. It is by Providence that some like me found this site. From click to click!
Now I understand more.Reply by wish4truth2 on 2018-05-20 16:16:27
Hi Kennedy, the articles presented are great! but I too would like to move on and just study scripture rather than dwell on the Wt teaching. It has been 4 or 5 years since leaving the Wt Org and we may be at a different stage to others, we are kind a, over the Wt now.I find myself gleaning the articles these days for scriptural understanding and scriptural answers to my many questions. They are like little gems dotted here and there.When i find one I take it to the family and we study it. Since leaving the Wt Org our scriptural eyes have been opened!
Reply by Mike West on 2018-05-20 17:16:07
Great article and thoughts here. I agree with Kennedy & wish4truth2 that some of us are ready and perhaps have moved on from the org. However, these reviews of what our many Brother & Sisters still within the org are being taught are very important in several ways. First, those who have left can 'make a defense of their faith' (1 Peter 3:15) to active JW's who may challenge us with the Scriptures, proving where the WT is wrong. Second, those still in who read these reviews can be helped to see why so many honest hearted ones have left the org- and perhaps they themselves can take the difficult step of questioning some of the false WT teachings. I personally have greatly appreciated Beroean Pickets humble yet bold Bible based reviews and exposure of false WT teachings. Many who have left the org suffer spiritually and this info has been a spiritual blessing for them through very tough times. To the staff at BP- keep up the good work!
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-20 21:18:12
?
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-20 17:54:52
Amen Mike?
Reply by eve04 on 2018-05-21 22:46:36
Nicely said, Mike.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-20 21:33:34
Hello Kennedy and welcome!
Regarding the question forum... Have you looked at the sister site Discuss the Truth?
There are some really deep discussions there. Sometimes way over my head ? But it's a good place to get a topic discussed.
I understand what you're saying about moving on, but there will always be a need for JWs to come to this site and see a reasoned analysis of what they're being fed at the meetings. Most of my family are still active JWs and I appreciate having the analysis to sharpen my critical thinking skills.
We're all at different stages of awakening and must allow for those who are the newest to learn as we did, I feel.
I'm intrigued to see your thoughts on time limits to the gifts of the spirit.
I also like what you said about us having left 'place' for ' person'.
?
Martha.Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-21 09:41:41
Hello Martha Martha, thanks for the tip I had a look at this sister site and I may just dive in and drown myself in one of those discussions, you are right these boys are deep thinkers for sure!!!!!
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-21 10:42:50
You're welcome, take your water wings with you! ?
Reply by Kennedy Dafeakeh on 2018-05-21 12:15:32
Thanks a great deal, Martha. I'm glad to be here. Now that the upvote button has been removed, I have to comment rather than simply upvote.
I'll definitely check out the sister site. I hadn't been aware of it before now.
This is such a great place to be.
Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-21 07:35:07
Hello brother Kennedy, I get your point about discussing matters in a positive fashion and perhaps not being like a person who appears transfixed, gazing constantly at the devastating smouldering remains of what once was. However please consider some of my thoughts on the matter.
You may consider the presentations reviewing ORG material from another point of view and that is at times you can better understand, some matters by comparison to something else. Something good sometimes can be better understood by also comparing with something bad. The Orgs spiritual output is a ready source to make easy comparisons with what the scriptures say and what is really only some erroneous personal opinions. Some of these personal opinions are also common in other religions and the analyses can be useful to help these not to mention the many of our friends and family that are still in the Org as already mentioned.
Another point you may consider is the Apostle Paul’s writings and discussions. He wrote Romans, Galatians and Hebrews extensively “going back over” the Law Covenant and comparing this with the New Covenant and at the same time, as you suggest “discuss the beautiful teachings and promises of our Lord Jesus Christ”. So personally I don’t see a problem here.
Another point as already mentioned is that many of us have been indoctrinated for decades with falsehoods and so appreciate winding back the clock and searching the most hidden recesses of our minds and spiritual understanding of the scriptures to not only eradicate these falsehoods, but also to be able to effectively repudiate them. 1 Peter 3:15.
There is also the matter of culture, not easily understood by some who have not grown up as a JW; many like me have been a Jehovah’s Witness for many decades and it is an unalterable and an undeniable fact. There is extensive history, relationships and not a few good times regardless of the context they were in. And so as a result understand and discuss matters naturally looking forward or looking backwards however you want to put it from this background. So still from a cultural perspective you may not understand my next point, but regardless of what has passed, still over a few beers and someone on the piano I like nothing better than to bashing out songs like Firm and determined, We are Jehovah’s Witnesses, or how about Jehovah is our refuge? I know there must be at least a few reading this that are probably watering in the mouth already! (Or laughing out loud! Or crying!!!)Reply by Kennedy Dafeakeh on 2018-05-21 12:12:46
Thanks Alithia. I can relate to the cultural aspect of the matter as well as the need to be abreast of ways in which we can defend our rejection of the doctrinal fallacies of the JW.
I appreciate the spirit of openness and respect prevalent on this forum. I wish I could meet every one of you at some point. I guess I'll have to wait.
:)Reply by eve04 on 2018-05-21 22:47:27
Welcome Kennedy. I enjoy your comments.
For me being woke for a couple of years, I still find the articles on this site helpful. There is always a point I hadn't thought about. In my personal bible reading, I am really seeing the difference in what we were taught as JW's as to what the bible really says. Jesus voice is so clear to me now, I still wonder how I believed JW teachings for so long.
Comment by Pekanman on 2018-05-20 16:39:10
Thank you for a great summary of an article that is sure to attract a lot of thought and emotion as many of us have been disciplined and readjusted by those who have set themselves over us.
I know that the point about us just being God's friends strikes home with me, more and more lately this really bothers me, that we are taught that we can never ever be part of God's family, that we have no mediator between Jehovah and is, that we are just hangers on that really don't matter to anyone.
Even the term Heavenly Father now rings hollow to me, I have no heavenly father as I'm just a friend of the family so to speak. I have no inheritance, no standing and most of all no family at all.
I will always look to Jehovah and His son, our King, but knowing that no matter what I do that I can never have the close family type relationship with God is almost cruel.
So many good points today, thank you for your constant effort and work in putting a realistic honest scriptural view on the spin doctor's of New York.
Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-05-20 20:56:55
Such distorted jibberish they are spewing out, and so easily recognized. Here they go again trying to claim Christ's Divine authority, for which they have no claim (Mt 28:18). Look close, they got no scars they got no feel. (The GB, not the flock, the flock is all scared up and feeling all the pain).
Great, great comments everyone, keep them coming.
Comment by Truth_seeker on 2018-05-21 06:30:13
The WT article begins by saying Jehovah's discipline is never abusive or cruel. I suppose Watchtower would say shunning is neither abusive nor cruel despite it contradicting the universal declaration of human rights. It reminds me of a debate under the G.W. Bush administration on whether waterboarding were a form of torture or not. How could anyone consider waterboarding not to be torture? It defies the prohibition of the US constitution against 'cruel and unusual punishment' but the right-wingers don't seem to care about that. Likewise, Watchtower contradicts itself when professing that shunning is not cruel and abusive.
Reply by eve04 on 2018-05-21 22:58:58
Just think I used to think that was Jehovah's way of keeping the congregation clean. SMH (shake my head)
Comment by Alithia on 2018-05-21 08:06:39
Besides not being founded in the scriptures anyone who has been a recipient of this loving discipline or is familiar with others who have received it can attest to the fact that most often it is not loving rather delivered in an authoritarian, harsh and rough shod incoherent manner and often uncalled for. No wonder there have been numerous articles on how to receive discipline and we are told that even when it is not valid or correct we should accept it with appreciation regardless!!!That does not sound like love from a Father to me, if ever as a parent you have disciplined your child unjustly you know how much you try to make up for it and explain how wrong it was because it was an injustice and unnecessary!. (this often happens in a he did it she did it scenario between siblings)
See the following cut and paste from a WT 90 9/15 pg 22 comment below on the weak and beggarly protections from unjust or uncalled for discipline from any one such "loving elder",
"If you are the object of an undeserved reprimand, it is hoped that the person in authority will allow you to explain matters. Of course, any explanation should be made in a mild spirit with the hope that a mistaken view would thus be corrected. The individual in authority would need to control his spirit to permit such an explanation, and this would show that he has wisdom and strength".
How many times is authority mentioned and what feel do you get with regards to the balance of power in the relationship, supposedly among brothers, I think like this article above the emphasis is mostly on bolstering the authority of the elders and of the Org. And if anyone has been in such a situation where the discipline is not valid any hope to explain yourself or the facts is usually dashed because the elder has read numerous articles explaining how publishers should not complain or justify themselves and just "enjoy the experience no matter how painful" After all it is like the oil greasing Aaron's beard. Psalms 133.2 this is a fav the Org likes to use regardless if the discipline is necessary or not you gotta love it just the same.Reply by eve04 on 2018-05-21 23:02:44
Hi Alithia,
This is one of the things that woke me up, was the way a couple of my friends were treated in the disfellowshipping process. It was one of the most unkind things I have seen from those professing love for God. I thought, Jehovah can't be directing this activity.Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-22 08:21:41
Me too. When I found out the brothers refuse to pray with the person after deciding to disfellowship them it felt like one step too far. Like almost Satanic. Who do we pray for? The healthy exclusively?
Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-22 08:15:49
I know someone who acted out later in life. They had suffered sexual abuse as a child, and started engaging in inappropriate behavior later in life while married. This person went to the brothers to unload their heavy conscience and they were expelled immediately from the congregation. I won't say it wasn't warranted by the rules we are forced to play by in the Org, but when they were out they decided to seek professional treatment for their problem. These same brothers who expelled this person, and who would not pray with them when closing the judicial meeting, suddenly became perturbed that this person was getting 'worldly' counseling when they should be relying on Jehovah exclusively. You can't win with these men. And you can't make this stuff up. They honestly view the Watchtower and Awake magazines as the complete cure for all of life's ailments.
Comment by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-21 08:24:23
I really want to spill my guts here, but my current situation requires discretion. I haven't been invited or allowed to attend any family functions (everybody's in) in years, including weddings (!) because of a marking talk I was the subject of years ago over entertainment choices. There are no limits to the punishments you can accrue if you disagree with an elder body over matters of conscience, and no limit to the energy they will devote to ruining your life and reputation, nor any limit to the territory of their gossip network. If you believe marking is congregation only - I'm proof that this form of discipline goes well beyond those walls. I get dirty looks wherever I go - usually at conventions - from brothers I've never met before, because of entertainment choices (not pornography or anything grossly offensive) I had made back then and defending my right to make them. I believe the latter is the reason my series of restrictions and punishments have been as severe as they have been. I used my conscience to defend itself, a big no-no in Kingdom Hall backroom litigation. I'm still waiting to feel that love they're promoting here. The judicial process of the organization isn't divine, or just, it's intolerant, imperious, and vindictive.
Reply by Alithia on 2018-05-21 09:57:38
Hello Joseph Anton thanks for sharing, one day I really want to hear your story (you really are the word smith) in the meantime I wonder how you survive in what seems to me to be some sought of social suspended animation type existence, it must be very hard for you in these circumstances brother!
And I could not agree more with what you said about the Org wanting discipline to hurt in as many ways in ones life as possible. All of the talk about confidentiality and limiting the effects of the discipline etc is baloney! I know of an instance where an elder traveled by car for 2000 Kilometers to personally brief the elders of a publishers new congo regarding discipline arising from what i thought were trivial matters. Not to mention the introductory letters forwarded to new congo when they move and if ever you were on the elder body service committee you would see the marked pettiness of so many elders in passing on gossipy nonsense that puts others in a bad light and ruining their reputation rather than the dominant good these poor people have been doing for years. It really is as you describe it out of control I am hearing you Joseph!!!!Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-21 11:11:13
Thanks so much. Sometimes restrictive and abusive environments polish people, and in turn polish their ideals and skill sets. Look at Solzhenitsyn's The Gualg Archipelago. Not that I'm saying the congregation has anything in common with the Soviet gulag.... ;)
The letter of introduction policy is one area where we can all honestly admit that those in charge are practicing something pretty much detestable in the scriptures. The collecting, storing, and forwarding of a man's sins to others. I hear (through gossip) most of this gossip happens over the phone so as not to leave a record. Those of you who are parents know and accept that you either lead by example, or you implement a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do approach to leadership in the family. The failure rate on one of these is well established at this point in human history.
So when I hear the brothers admonish us to be seated with our families during the convention, but notice all of the elders massed together at tables and hanging out in the backs of convention centers, or just walking around with laminated 'ATTENDANT' badges in large, block letters - while their wives mind the kids alone at the family seats, one big empty seat directly on the aisle - or I hear a local needs talk on gossip, but am privy to the policy of introduction letters, I know which form of leadership is being, not just put into practice, but seemingly ordained by the head office. Orwell's pigs behaved much the same way.Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-21 13:05:25
And the admonition not to save seats when whole rows in prime areas are saved for Attendants family members.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-21 10:34:15
One day we might get the chance to tell our stories with impunity. Meanwhile what you have said is enough for us to recognise the treatment and attitudes that seem to be more common than I thought.
One of the things that really puzzles me is the term " collective conscience".
I've been told that the collective conscience of the elder body, or even the congregation's collective conscience, is something that I should submit to. I think there's been some discussion of this nonsensical idea here on BP.
To me, a collective conscience is a contradiction. It's no more than peer pressure with a different label. The WT loves creating new names or phrases to disguise and bamboozle us into accepting peer pressure as something we should give in to for the "unity" of the congregation.
It's so good to be away from all that. You who are still in and are resisting have my admiration!Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-21 10:43:58
Martha (or, is it properly, MarthaMartha?)
As soon as you start talking about "collective conscience", being a sci-fi fan, I immediately think of Star Trek and the Borg collective. If you know about the show, you know the Borg mantra: You must comply. Resistance is futile. We will add your strengths to our own. You must become one with the Borg.
Yep, that's unity, all right. In the Borg, only the goals of the collective matter. There are no individuals, and what *appear* to be individuals are expendable, without the slightest hesitation, mercy or remorse.
The key point to take away is, the Borg (and WT) are wrong. Resistance is NOT futile. It's not only necessary and worthwhile, but it's a matter of life and death.
If you're into "tags", then here's a tag for you:
#ResistWTReply by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-21 11:28:55
And this is codified in the language and practices at the congregation. Even our eulogies are about the organization, not the shell that carried the truth in its husk for its entire life on this planet. I'm being hyperbolic here, but I hope you get my point. Everything the organization does is about removing individualism from the collective. Dress this way. Talk this way. If you don't prepare to be hammered with the odd idea that you're stumbling your brother with your facial hair....
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-21 12:05:14
Ha!
Yes indeed Joseph
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-21 11:35:44
Hello Robert
Please just call me Martha, it’s a bit long winded to type MarthaMartha! I used the double name when I joined BP years ago because Jesus’ words “ Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things” really spoke to me and reflected how I felt at the time.
Martha will do fine though.
I agree about ‘the Borg’. The similarities are striking.
My husband and I know all the tricks since we were raised in the org as elders’ children and my husband was an elder for almost 30 years before he stepped down. We’ve had a few ‘discussions’ with elders and COs over the last few years where we’ve resisted the Borg mentality in conscience matters and had the full power of ‘‘privileges’ revoked and being no longer in ‘good standing’. It’s hilarious in hindsight. As if we care what men think. ?
They have no power over us.
Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-21 10:46:37
Look into Kohlberg's theory of moral development. It's fairly easy to find on Wikipedia. There's six stages we go through toward moral maturity. The first stages are submitting to the morality of the group, only later does a person start defining his own morality and actually start attempting to push back against laws they deem unjust - in this case the law of shunning. According to Kohlberg our organization is woefully underdeveloped morally. Their adherence to a 'collective conscience' means that they're still in grade school morally. If you've found yourself engaging with others in forums like this one you've developed your moral compass quite a bit further than your brothers and sisters have. It's a fascinating scale, and one I talk to other Witnesses about because it's interesting, but it's a Trojan horse to get controversial thinking into uncontroversial heads.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-21 11:05:26
I’ll look into that Joseph thank you! It sounds intriguing.
Reply by wild olive on 2018-05-21 20:53:07
Hi JA
Your comment on moral immaturity struck a chord with me, I actually experienced this as part of my awakening.
Now I have been a JW since I was 5 yrs old, and I have just turned 56, I have the better part of 5 decades of "organisational teaching and discipline ",one would think that amount of " spiritual training" could produce an outstanding Christian.
When I started questioning the belief system, I went into what I can only describe as an out of control tailspin, it was like everything good I had learnt just fell off, and I did things which I regret. This very much explains the true state of a JW, because everything he believes, understands, holds dear, has been decided by someone else, nothing he believes has come out of his own undestanding or through enlightenment of the Holy Spirit , it's ALL been pre packaged and decided . I now understand why many who leave fall apart emotionally and spiritually, it's actually not their fault, its because they have stayed , as you commented , morally immature, the pressure to keep conforming gives the impression of moral uprightness, but it in fact is weak, as none of it is really born out of true personal conviction or spiritual rebirth, their conscience has only been trained as a collective, and without the collective, it falls apart. The GB don't realise that the more they require obedience , discipline and conformity, the more they elevate the organisation,the weaker and more dependant they make the brothers and sisters.Which in turn takes them further away from true connection to Jehovah, it's quite sad actually.Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-21 21:25:19
Hi W.O. (it needs periods, or else it looks like Whoa or something, ha ha),
Your story strikes a familiar chord. I have been away from WT for about 10 years, but before that I was around them since I was 7, and now I am 65. A few times I left then came back, but the last time "took". Surprisingly, it wasn't because of some grand "awakening" but dissatisfaction with how I was treated and how I saw other people behave. I felt like I was a non-person at the hall, and no one would miss me if I left, and sure enough, no one did.
Anyway, looking back, I feel like I "studied" like crazy, but didn't really "know" anything. It's weird, like, how can I study for meetings so many hours a week, and still not know anything? But that's how it felt, like I expended an enormous amount of time on all this studying, and I had nothing to show for it. I started seeing the meetings as fundamentally empty. Once all the WT tasks seemed like nothing but busy-work and make-work, leaving was pretty easy. I wasn't a big socializer, so I didn't miss the other people there all that much.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you say the more WT makes people dependent on them, the weaker they get. It's just like the Jews being dependent on the Pharisees for all the matters of conscience and moral determination that they should have decided for themselves. They were so weak spiritually that when Christ came, they mostly rejected him.
Your comment above offers a lot for thought. Thanks.Reply by wild olive on 2018-05-21 23:27:37
I feel the same about the time spent " studying " .
I think that what should have been done from the start , for a spiritual education, we should have not bothered with the NWT, the GB should have taught how to use the KJV effectively, fully understand it's faults and nuances, as it is a well respected translation, it would have given a much better footing for good door to door teaching, along with that there should have been classes on biblical Greek and Hebrew, I mean really, if I had gone to a religious college for 10 yrs , then I would at least come away with a good understanding of biblical languages, but sadly all the fine people in the org , even after decades of membership won't have even a smattering of either Greek or Hebrew, and as we all know on this site, understanding these ancient languages does greatly assist faith and understanding, goes a long way to differentiate true and false teachings, maybe that's why it never happened?
Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-22 08:06:05
You hit the nail on the head Robert. It's busy work.
Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-22 00:58:05
Nietzsche called that type of morality for people he deemed 'obedient cowards.' I've been a zealous practitioner of it myself at times. People only develop through friction. Oddly we can thank the organization, and studies like this one being reviewed this week, and the constant cattle prods of elders, to create a self sufficient, and improved morality in us. All those War metaphors in Ephesians 6 suddenly take on a new meaning. We're battle hardened Christians at this point. Not so lost as we thought, and for the first time in our lives confident in who and what we are. People complain about wasting their best years in the organization - but maybe that was the path to get here. And here's just a path to the next elevated plain. And on.
Reply by Anazitisi on 2018-05-21 13:37:45
Hi Joseph
I can confirm a lot of ‘introductions’ have a large amount conveyed by phone so there is no come back. A p.o. or cobe as we now call them, proudly told me that was his practice. I knew he was tellIng the truth and sure enough when we moved congregations he spread the lying gossip about us to our new congregation. As you say there is no comeback to clear your slandered name. The only way to escape this is too leave. Justice and righteousness, many elders I know well wouldn’t be capable of spelling those words, as they are not in their dictionary. As to a hiding place or a rocky crag giving shelter in the desert, they are more likely to drop or throw rocks on you.Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-05-22 07:57:20
Growing up in the organization I knew in my core that I could never be an elder. I didn't want to be involved in knowing the underbelly of the congregation. Who did what, and to whom. I'd hear little nuggets of gossip about brothers and sisters - about elders even - and even that felt 'dirty' to me. At the time I was thankful that there were men willing to take on the role of confessor, and in some ways if the overseer is of a good heart and in a position to listen and help someone, I still believe this role is vital to maintaining a healthy church. But when I stumbled on these 'introduction' (always with the 'newspeak' this group) letters and phone calls it really became apparent to me that whatever we started out as - and I'm going to close this comment with a little known quote from CT Russell below - we've strayed into pure legalism. I think over time, all religious groups do. And then there's either a reform or they bleed out. We're reaching near to that point in the Org.
"The Lord's Word does not authorize any court of Elders, or anyone else, to become busybodies. This would be going back to the practices of the Dark Ages during the Inquisition and we would be showing the same spirit as the inquisitors." - C.T. RussellReply by Warp Speed on 2018-05-26 14:14:11
Great quote from Russell. Do you have the quote source? I would like to share it with someone close to me.
Thanks JA
Comment by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-21 21:32:10
Just curious ...
Have people noticed "things are getting better around here"? Take a good look at the quality of the comments being made, and their tone. There is a more personal atmosphere, people are being more open and considerate.
Seems to me, this new non-voting arrangement already has a new "feel" to it. I think it is working out even better than anyone expected.
How y'all feel? Things seem better?Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-21 23:00:57
I agree Robert, but one thing I have noticed and maybe some others here have to, is that the comments have mostly been coming from fully awoken ones, and possibly some never have fallen asleep ones. That is very encouraging to me.
After being out so long or perhaps never being in, it kinda makes you feel like saying "okay I've graduated this course let's move on". Jesus takes care of his own and his sheep follow him, NOT ONE of "His" shall be left behind.
PsalmbeeReply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-21 23:12:30
Psalmbee, I am a little confused. Is what you have noticed a good thing or a bad thing? I am not sure I understand the point you are making. Could you clarify it a little? My two still-working brain cells need help at times.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-21 23:28:11
100% A-OK, the "tone" of progression is music to my ears.
Another thing I have noticed, is that no one here is still fully asleep,and by that I mean that no one is commenting as to trying to get people back into the kingdom halls. Maybe a future development for the GB, they could add a new department. The way things are going for them they are gonna need everyone they can get soon.Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-22 07:07:05
Hi Psambee, ?
Has anyone ever tried to get people back in the KH? I've been a member for a few years and not noticed it.
We definitely want to build up each other's faith and I love this site for that reason, but I think we all realise the KH is not the place for spiritual feeding any more. More like a mind conditioning unit. ?
You made me laugh with your idea of a new department for the GB. Would it be like the retention department of phone and TV companies when you try to leave for another provider?
"Please hold while I transfer you to our retention department. They may have a better deal for you. "
??Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-05-22 09:32:33
Hi Martha, lol, that is kinda what I meant. But what I had in mind more so, is that the good shepherd goes anywhere and everywhere he thinks one of his lost sheep may be, and will risk his own life to rescue his sheep.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-22 13:07:20
Yes Psalmbee, I don't see any of the GB doing that.
I'm glad we're under the care of the real good shepherd.
Reply by wild olive on 2018-05-21 23:16:59
Agree as well Robert, I was going to suggest to Eric if the likes could be disabled , but he beat me to it.
If you ever listen to Jordan Peterson , he's a clinical psychologist, he says that social media has created since unknown mental problems, one of them is getting " likes" on various accounts, he explains that the reaction it causes is identical to the reaction caused by cocaine, how's that for a doozy. Good reason to discontinue likes.Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-22 06:57:58
That's scary WO,
I can't say I ever felt a high from getting a like, ?, but I enjoy this much better.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2018-05-22 06:56:07
I agree, and I like it.
Thanks for suggesting it. I never like change and dug my heels in slightly at first, but you're right, it's as though we've been constrained by the ability to click a like symbol, and now we're set free to engage with one another.
Long may it continue.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-22 12:37:03
All I can say is "Wow!", just look at the quality of the comments. Its almost like we have been set free, not worrying about what others think. Only one problem, it is taking so much longer to read all you have to say. Keep it up.
Just an extra thing. Having scanread Ray Franz' C of C a second time, what I notice is that there are lots of references to the GB being so busy they do not have time for proper consideration of the scriptures. If that applied when C of C was written, it looks like it is much more the case now.
Seems like they are bogged down with Child Abuse, Building projects etc and whatever, so they cannot devote what the Apostles said they needed to do, namely scripture and prayer. If they had done so, maybe they would not have allowed so many untruths to stand, and they could have worked out how to get out of the holes that they have dug, instead of relying on all their traditions as if most of the conclusions Russell and Rutherford were infallible. And then the "truth" might actually be the truth.
So, Jesus (or Jehovah, maybe) made clear right there in the scriptures what their priorities should be, but they have ignored him. I wonder what he thinks now.Reply by Tadua on 2018-05-22 13:01:45
Maybe the words that come immediately to his mind (like mine) are unfaithful, indiscreet and pharisaical.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-05-22 18:55:11
The GB is truly the master over the faith of everyone within their grasp, and a harsh master at that. Most JWs obey the GB's every word as though it were a matter of life and death (and sometimes it is, either literally or spiritually), and view them as agents of God. In doing so, they elevate the GB members to gods, degrading and reducing themselves to mere idolaters and slaves of men. If WT had real faith in God and Christ and the Bible and allowed it to actually speak for itself, they could have admitted their past errors, but now it's too late for them.
My phrase: faithless, indiscreet masters.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-05-23 05:28:33
Having now trawled through the Watchtower article, Tadua, I found your comments especially incisive this week. Much appreciated.
Is it not the Peter Principle, that people rise to their level of incompetence, usually because there is a limit as to what they can cope with ?
In trying to cope with more than they can, then have the GB risen to their level of incompetence ?
In local congregations, by reducing, especially though parts of the CLAM meeting, the amount of study needed by those who are doing the teaching, how does this help those appointed to become spiritual men - which is the idea behind Galatians 6:1 that those who readjust should be spiritual persons and not just those who have a name tag of “I am qualified because I am elder”.
When I was an elder there were lots of areas I was not qualified on, and sadly I still was expected to be able to correct or guide brothers and sisters. Now, if I can offer any guidance, it will be because I have learned a lot more about what the Bible really says.
I have also learned not to interfere and accept there are many ways to skin a rabbit.
Comment by Encourage One Another “All the more so” | Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2018-06-24 12:13:51
[…] discussed in the recent Watchtower review on ‘Discipline – Evidence of Gods Love’, there is no scriptural authority for elders to give counsel. As for being able to “give counsel […]