A Thought on the JW.org/UN Petition Letter

Comment by wish4truth2 on 2018-06-05 16:56:38

YaY!Meleti, i fully agree with you on this. Every other week we go to a certain town and attend the undercover markets there. The witnesses have a permanent stand set up and I go and introduce myself and talk to them about the weather and finally why I left the Organisation, in the hope that it will make them aware and help them wake up. Every other week I have found there are always different witnesses on the stand. Have I had any success? No. Every time I do it they end up angry. But maybe one of them will one day be prompted to research and maybe they will wake up. I feel compelled to do it for my past brothers and sisters even though I know now, I will be met with the usual excuses for the GB and Org, stone wall denial and finally hostility.

• Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-06-06 05:28:15

  Another defence made is “Do you think you know better than the faithful slave ?”. If they know best then why do the scriptures ask us to make sure of all things, to text every inspired expression ? Or do you think they never make mistakes ?

  • Reply by wish4truth2 on 2018-06-06 06:06:15

    Another one told to me by an Elder who claimed loudly,"Elders are appointed by Holy Spirit". When I showed him a Watchtower article explaining the Elders are not appointed by holy spirit directly but only by association with the Bible direction, that is the Bible is a product of holy spirit, therefore by following Bible direction to appoint Elders, Elders are appointed by holy Spirit???!.....err, makes sense to them anyway( which opens a can of worms reasoning on their claim) He said the same to me.... “Do you think you know better than the faithful slave ? and then..... "Do you think you are above the Holy Spirit?"

Comment by Alithia on 2018-06-05 16:59:49

I agree with the above sentiments. If any one is aware, Ray Franz GB member was in receipt of the treatise by Carl-Olof-Johnson "Gentile Times Re-Considered" which put the lie to the 1914 debacle back in the 70s.

Despite initially wrestling with it and even actively opposing the contents for considerable time it had the effect of eventually causing Ray and a good many high level "Bethel Boys" to diverge from the pack and to start questioning things in an objective manner, and the results are that massive numbers now can attribute having been convinced otherwise.

Can anyone discount for certainty similar results due to the same efforts of Eric's letter campaign. Not saying it will have similar far reaching affect but who can say??? Carls effort was a decidedly one man effort!!!!!!!Writing in with essentially one very compelling letter!!!!!

And if a high level Bethel Boy breaks ranks this time with the internet and information availability they will not be able to smother the break like they could with Ray where they unleashed a tremendous "Beware of Apostates" campaign. The results could be a large defection by some of the most staunch members leading to a snow ball affect.

I cannot remember what proverb or even if it is scripture which says the following " If you dont give it a go you will never never know!! (Jokes) Maybe spread you bread among many waters may be more appropriate. Jesus parable of the Sower too.

• Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-05 23:54:40

  When Ray Franz turned apostate the word itself had much more meaning to it then it does now. Back then it held more credibility, now the internet is rife with them. Why should the WT care about any of them, when there are so many running rampant? Actually it may be working in there favor!
  
  Note: The WT Corporation is completely legally and lawfully distinct from the GB. That happened when they did the restructure. I have noticed that when the word corporation comes up people start talking about the GB. I feel that those two words should not be confused with each other in discussions here.

  • Reply by Alithia on 2018-06-06 01:15:18

    They cared then and they care now, recently the elders received correspondence/talking to from the C.O.s warning the elders to be on the look out for Apostates as the are everywhere, so said my nephew/elder to me??? Ha ha ha. Running rampant true there are ex JW sites where they fairly scream, free sex, gay lgbthzxyz no god that is why sites like this that are faith based are important and can be what many would be looking for if and when the number of defections start to grow.
    
    Look how the GB is running around trying to put out the raging fires of child abuse scandals around the world and in my opinion I think it just might be the beginning of a concerted movement around the world by society and Governments to do something about this insidious problem, much like the me too movement. You just need enough impetus to reach critical mass/overcome inertia and the whole thing can start rolling on its own very nicely like in Australia where you can easily start a conversation with a tree stump about institutional child abuse and get a very good response.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-06 08:13:54

    You're correct, Psalmbee. The directors of the corporation that holds ownership of Warwick could, legally, throw the Governing Body off the premises. I don't believe that legally, the Governing Body would have any recourse were that decision to be taken. I could be wrong though.

Comment by JackSprat on 2018-06-06 01:46:06

I stand corrected

Comment by Joseph Anton on 2018-06-06 10:47:16

From Jordan Peterson's new book:

"Under the leadership of a great man, the Hebrews organize themselves into a society, and then an empire. As their fortunes rise, success breeds pride and arrogance. Corruption raises its ugly head. The increasingly hubristic state becomes obsessed with power, begins to forget its duty to the widows and orphans, and deviates from its age-old agreement with God. A prophet arises. He brazenly and publicly reviles the authoritarian king and faithless country for their failures before God—an act of blind courage—telling them of the terrible judgment to come. When his wise words are not completely ignored, they are heeded too late. God smites his wayward people, dooming them to abject defeat in battle and generations of subjugation. The Hebrews repent, at length, blaming their misfortune on their own failure to adhere to “God’s word. They insist to themselves that they could have done better. They rebuild their state, and the cycle begins again.
This is life. We build structures to live in. We build families, and states, and countries. We abstract the principles upon which those structures are founded and formulate systems of belief. At first we inhabit those structures and beliefs like Adam and Eve in Paradise. But success makes us complacent. We forget to pay attention. We take what we have for granted. We turn a blind eye. We fail to notice that things are changing, or that corruption is taking root. And everything falls apart. Is that the fault of reality—of God?"

Sound like anyone we know? This cycle is universal. Any collective will be corrupted by pride given enough time.

• Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-06-06 12:26:45

  I would hope that I have an internal hubris alarm that if I ever started slipping into that trap it would kick on and wake me up. I try to give my fellow Witnesses (I still attend meetings with my family) the benefit of the doubt strictly because I know to dismiss their motives wholesale would be hubris on my part. But I have to force myself to try to see things as they do. It's not natural for me. But I don't want to ever belong to a mindless mob. I don't want to lead one. My natural state is independence. I happened to be born into a mob that started a hundred years before I was born. It doesn't seem fair, but I think everybody deals with inequity in some form or another.

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-06 12:23:16

He can lift the veil for individuals as 2 Corinthians 3:12-18 shows, but then there are time that he tears it in two. (Matthew 27:51) The time for that is neigh, at least for the Organization. Woe betide those poor souls who have clung to faith in men when that hour arrives, for they will be left with nothing. Let us hope we can be there for them.

Comment by Gogetter on 2018-06-06 21:55:27

I appreciate what Eric is attempting to do with his version of a letter writing campaign and we all agree it would be as effective as the letter bombing campaign that the GB has guilted the R & F to do in the past with government leaders.
I want to point out that any PIMO’s who decide to undertake this project will no longer be incognito the minute you sign your name to the letter. I state the obvious or maybe not to any who are considering this. Be prepared for the hammer to come down on you swiftly and without mercy.
If you are disfellowshipped they won’t even read past your name and will chalk it up to “ another mentally diseased Apostate”and will totally discard the letter.
Now don’t get me wrong I love the whole idea from the angry part of me that wants to to call them out on their hypocrisy! But the reasonable part of me ask
What will we accomplish, what is the end game? I say absolutely nothing, they definitely know what they have done and if they were ever going to confess and repent it would have been in 2001 and let’s not fool ourselves that any of the GB members or accomplices will receive any discipline that the R&F would have for far less brazen conduct.
Many agree with this from the comments that really nothing will change, the GB are not going to have a “come to Jesus moment “. ( I couldn’t resist)
Why blow your cover, you will never regain the perfect although extremely difficult situation you are in to help family and friends to wake up again!
I suggest we are PIMO’s for that reason and that reason only, otherwise why would any of us have anything to do with what many have come to the conclusion are not the FDS but the Evil slave who beats their fellow slaves. ( strange that the GB can’t identify who that evil slave is or can they)

I also suggest we come up with techniques on how to accomplish ways to open the eyes ( I’m working on that and will post soon ) of our friends and family certainly that would be more fruitful in the long run and that would absolutely be something our Lord would bless.

Sorry Eric I normally agree with you but not on this my brother.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-07 07:39:48

  An alternative is to sign with an alias and include no return address. The important thing is the quantity of letters what will provoke a response, likely a negative one, which might result in more waking up.

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-07 19:05:25

    Just had a funny thought. Sign with the name of a currently serving member of the Governing Body, with as much current personal information as can be garnered publically. That will at least get them to blink. :)
    
    ... ok everybody ... just joking ...

Comment by Gogetter on 2018-06-07 08:44:29

Hi Eric,
Who do you suppose it will evoke a response with? It will be kept under raps and in no way
Will the R & F ever know about it, just look how many Never heard about ARC and all the law suites. The handful at HQ that would know about the letters coming in are all hardcore loyalists, that’s why they are there.

• Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-07 09:19:52

  Gogetter, Staying silent never accomplished anything. Doing nothing is exactly that, a big fat NOTHING. Speak out and defend yourselves. Staying silent is a weakness.
  
  Can't you read the sign? Let me give you an example: An officer on duty notices a man ran a stop sign, so he pulls him over and asks him to get out of the car. The man gets out and pleads with the officer that he slowed way down before he went thru the stop sign. The officer told him yeah but you didn't stop. The man says, but officer I slowed way down. So the officer pulls out his Billy club and starts whacking the man across the head with it, then he asked the man, do you want me to stop or just slow down?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-07 09:56:44

  I see your point, Gogetter. However, you'll notice that the governing body has reacted to the "apostates" by getting defensive in talks and broadcasts. There have also been talks about the two-witness rule, again in response to media coverage. Like all such who follow a course of independence from God, they feel insecure in their positions of power and react (often overreact) to any perceived threat to that power. Maybe nothing will come of these letters. Even if they get many such, the wisest thing they can do is to ignore them. But they are not known of late for acting wisely.
  
  We can only try so as to see if any good comes of it. As Psalmbee says, 'doing nothing accomplishes nothing'. It is better to attempt and fail, then to not attempt at all. Our Lord blesses our efforts; even failed ones do not go unnoticed by the One who sees all. But failure to do anything gives him nothing to bless. (Luke 19:23)

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-07 19:02:59

    You are quite right, Eric. I didn't see Psalmbee's remark earlier that 'doing nothing accomplishes nothing' but that is a profound statement in four words.
    
    The reality might be a little more complicated than that. For instance, a PIMO might do nothing at the moment, in order to prepare themselves and their families to leave later. So, while the statement is profound and thought-provoking, we must be careful not to view opinions in absolutes or without considering the context.

Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-06-07 08:51:00

If you are a head of household that is PIMO, I personally don't see any excuse for you still being in. If you are not the head of a household and are PIMO then yes, I can understand that.
Jesus shepperds his own, the Father will draw you to him once you release the bond you're under. (1 Th 2:19).

• Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-06-07 17:12:57

  Wow Psalmbee- that was an extremely judgmental statement. Let's shine that spotlight on you for a moment....
  
  What was your excuse for never getting baptized?
  
  You have the gall to tell all of us ex-JW's to "get out", when in fact you were never "in".
  
  Not cool....

  • Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-07 17:31:24

    Well said, to get out to fast could be devastating for some sensitive individuals. It’s not really all about what we’re leaving but mainly about what we’re going to. Or rather ”whom” we are getting closer to...

  • Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-07 20:15:40

    Warp Speed you said:You have the gall to tell all of us ex-JW’s to “get out”, when in fact you were never “in”.
    
    First of all let's understand the meaning of ex-JW's, I don't fit that description, perhaps you may if that's the way you identify yourself at the Kingdom Hall or is it just here you do that?
    
    Warp asked: What was your excuse for never getting baptized?
    
    I don't have an excuse, The Lord Jesus has always told me not to do that yet, therefore I don't need an excuse when some man asks me.

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-06-07 10:39:23

Hi Eric, Just keep pumping away. I have sent, and received a reply (typically evasive) to the comment made by GJ at the ARC about "we are not the only spokesperson". My follow up letter asking for clarification has not been answered. I am will include a reference to some other event, depending on the content of rest of my letter.

Whatever we write, at least someone has to read it. Then, to that extent, I will have had my say.

In answer to Psalmbee, it is not so easy when many of your family, who are not at home, are still in. They think the sun shines out of...…..so the answer is often just a steady fade. Let each one do as his conscience allows.

• Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-07 10:57:20

  I will stay as long as is needed to help friends and relatives to see the truth. But it is very sensitive at times, to question beliefs that, although unscriptural, are very dear to people. Sometimes it feels like you need the precision of a surgeon to not offend some. It can be very frustrating. Regarding ”not the only spokesman”, I have a feeling they will change the understanding about ”the faithful slave” to include even non-anointed members of branch commitees etc. I don’t have any strong proof about this, just that they tend to throw in ”work together with the faithful slave and local branch representatives” every now and then. I could be entirely wrong just a theory. It doesn’t make much of a difference anyhow

• Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-07 11:04:24

  Leonardo, totally agree that it’s up to each ones own conscience, the important part is to not take part in unscriptural actions. I have managed to somehow go about stealthily. The biggest problem I feel like a fake, not a good enough Jw and the constant guilt tripping at meetings isn’t good for the self esteem. Not a good enough ”awakened Christian either” because I’m not brave enough/ too careful to speak up when I should. Oh well at least I got help here from you friends

  • Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-07 11:07:42

    I guess I’m afraid, not of people telling me I’m an apostate or bad christian, but that I should be convinced of that myself that they are right... it hurt enough last time an elder said I’m a bad christian. The reason? I told him ”I don’t want billions of people to die at armageddon? Isn’t there another way?”

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-09 20:20:37

      They are not right. Don't be afraid, at least not of that.
      
      When I started drifting away, I would ask myself questions like that, like was I all wrong and was I making a terrible mistake by leaving.
      
      What convinced me was a careful reading of Ray Franz, Crisis of Conscience and In search of Christian Freedom, and the other book, Gentile Times Revisited.
      
      The people who wrote these books were not rebellious or angry in the way WT always caricaturizes what they call "apostates". These were thoughtful individuals with well considered, well-reasoned arguments. They never saw themselves as "enemies" of WT - or of anyone else, for that matter. They were just trying to get to the truth - the thing they THOUGHT their current religion was providing but somehow wasn't.
      
      As for the matter of "billions of people dying at Armageddon", before someone accused me of being a "bad Christian" for failing to believe that, I would ask them, Just where EXACTLY does it say that? Yes, it says there will be a war, etc. but from my reading of Revelation it seems to point to a war against the governments, economies and religious systems, not necessarily billions of "bystanders".
      
      I believe anyone that claims there will necessarily be mass slaughter at Armageddon is interpreting the Bible, and not necessarily with all the facts available. We don't for sure exactly how this is all going to work out.
      
      Let me tell you what I think. This is totally my own idea, but I have a good feeling it could be this way. Let's say that there will be a "Last Days" period sometime in the future, and that it has not happened yet. When it does, some kind of supernatural event will grab the attention of the entire world, and everyone will know the whole story, accurately and correctly.
      
      At that point, the world would have 40 years to decide what to do. Those that refused to be on God's side would be allowed to grow old and die, without having any more children of their own. In that way, they would die off like the Israelites wondering in the wilderness for 40 years. THEY didn't receive a mass slaughter either, but they DID die because of their rebellion.
      
      If things worked this way, no one would be caught unaware, and future generations could not claim people had been treated unfairly.
      
      Well, that's how I see it. Is this how it will be? I don't know.
      
      But, which scenario is consistent with 2 Peter 3:9, that God does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance? A mass-slaughter of billions without warning at Armageddon, or a 40-year period in which a fully-aware world can make an informed choice as to where they wish to stand?
      
      Expecting our God to be kind and reasonable, even when dealing with an unfaithful and disobedient world, does not make one a "bad Christian".

Comment by Gogetter on 2018-06-07 10:53:24

Hi Psalmbee,
I apologize but I do not understand either of your post in relation to my comments.
I said nothing of being silent, but only questioned the rationale of writing letters to the branch in place of working from within the congregation with our lifelong friends and of course our family members to wake them up with this site offering them a way to do so
Without us personally debating doctrine or appearing to be an Apostate ( which of course we are from JW Stand point) which would end very abruptly.
As awakened Christians do we not feel the need to help our brothers and sisters who we know are extremely dedicated to Jehovah and Jesus but are being held captive by the org. as we once were, or should we abandon them and just be glad we are out? Remember we claimed we loved them, some for many decades.

I stand by my opinion that letter writing is a waste, if we want action against the GB/Org.
We need to work from within with those who keep this machine going, the Org.
Will never change on their own they are in too deep,change wether if an individual or an organization nearly always comes from within.

As far as your PIMO comment what difference does it make if you are a head of household or not? PIMO’s are in for one reason and one reason only, do you understand what that is?

• Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-07 11:21:13

  Gogetter thank you for this comment. Your words give me strength to hold out and stay a little while longer, I think many are surely gonna wake up and leave in the coming years. Soon a new strong christian community will be built, not a new organized religion, but something to replace the old dry things,we will receive them with open arms, however much they have persecuted us before they woke up

• Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-07 19:14:22

  Gogetter, You asked:do we not feel the need to help our brothers and sisters who we know are extremely dedicated to Jehovah and Jesus but are being held captive by the org. ?
  
  1.Who released you from your captivity?
  2.Why are you so intent on working from within, and who could trust such a one?
  
  True believers in The Christ of Jesus know very well, how Jesus is the one who does the separating, and that would be by Holy Spirit.
  
  You said: PIMO's are in for one reason only. I cannot agree with that, I have known many baptized JW's that have been PIMO at different stages of their association through out their entire years of service, For an example my sister has been in the Org since the day she was born, and I just heard her make a comment that she needs to be getting back to her meetings. To make a long story short, I know I heard her say that at least 100 times in my life over the years. I know that she is MIPO (mentally in physical out), But you could say it the other way too PIMO in regards to being on the WATCHTOWER roll call.
  
  I wanted to say a lot more but this is where the spirit led me for now. I can comment a little later if you would like, or if not just tell me to Shut up and that goes to anyone else.
  
  Psalmbee

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-07 17:37:07

The thing we must remember is that all of us are here because we need a place where we are not judged for every conscientious decision we make in life, nor are others trying to impose their will on us. That is what we get in the Organization all the time. So however strongly we feel about the proper course of action one should take in the awakening process, let us remember the kindly quality of the Christ who, though he was always right, never imposed his will on others, but allowed them to make their own decisions. (2 Cor. 10:1)

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-07 18:57:08

  As I recall, Jesus was only really hard on someone close to him when he told Peter, Get behind me Satan. Other people he was hard on were mostly the Pharisees. Everyone else he was quite gentle with. And, we should note, the primary means Jesus used to teach was a positive one. That is, instead of say, in effect, "Bad, disciple, BAD!" he would tell them and show them the correct course of action.
  
  You can only teach someone good by doing just that - teaching them good, not by saying "bad, bad, bad". That doesn't teach, it just demoralizes.

  • Reply by Alithia on 2018-06-08 03:24:05

    Good point Jesus always looked for the good in people and encouraged it along with being lavish in praise and very sparing in criticism for any of their actions.

  • Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-08 07:44:29

    ”Bad dog, bad dog”, thanks Robert you both made me laugh and think.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-08 08:31:38

    Nice reference, Brain. Always good to have the Lord's point of view to guide us.

• Reply by wish4truth2 on 2018-06-07 19:00:11

  good comment .... our Christian freedom

• Reply by JackSprat on 2018-06-07 21:49:47

  yes it is Christian freedom. I was amazed how the WWCG changed when they went back to basics and concentrated on the New Testament. the WT is stuck in a time warp they future proofed by having an elastic generation and a Governing body. looking at the financials they are not doing so well. with sales at 0 for literature they will only survive with sales of real estate and donations and these will eventually be unable to sustain the organization.

  • Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-08 23:51:46

    JackSprat,
    
    How long has that term been going around (elastic generation)? First time for me hearing it, if you just made it up, nice coin!

    • Reply by JackSprat on 2018-07-09 23:35:41

      check out
      
      https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/18327/some-watchtower-lies-analyzed-adults-only

• Reply by samisaac on 2018-06-08 07:30:44

  Thank you everyone for all your fine thoughts on being positive and building up eachother

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-09 14:21:57

    We are reminded, and must always remind ourselves, that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up, and that love never fails.
    
    How can it be possible that love never fails? In its truest form, real love unselfishly acts to the benefit and best interests of the other person.
    
    What other course of action could have such a positive result? Only the teachings of a loving God and His son could give us such an enlightened goal to strive for. No mere wisdom of men even comes close.

Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-06-08 10:08:38

I wonder if Jesus when he was having nails driven through his hands and feet was saying I wish you would stop because I'm such a sensitive person and I don't know if I can handle this or not? (Ro 6:3)

It's time to pick up your cross and carry it, don't hide it.

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-08 12:36:50

  Psalmbee,
  
  Far be it from me to stifle conversation or avoid controversies. I am sure there are still some irate readers that don't care much for me, though that was never my intent.
  
  But, having said that, I feel your tone is too confrontational and abrasive. I can see where telling people "It’s time to pick up your cross and carry it, don’t hide it." is going to offend them and hurt their feelings.
  
  I personally believe that WT is a false religion and part of Babylon the Great, and that we should have no part of it whatsoever. But even I wouldn't go that far to say what you did. Your words amount to a command - a harsh one at that.
  
  You need to calm down. Everyone on this forum has been provided with enough information to guide their heart and conscience as to what the right course of action is for their own lives. We need to respect that and allow people to make up their own minds, even if we personally might not agree with the choices made by any one individual.
  
  Being strident and demanding and impatient doesn't really work for most people. You will just make them feel bad by doing that.
  
  It's not our job to be the conscience of other people. It's hard enough doing it for ourselves.

  • Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-08 17:41:48

    Thank you Robert, I can appreciate all that, and while some of what you say is very true while some is not, according to the way I see things. Mainly what I would disagree with is the comment about my comment being a "harsh command". I see it as a friendly Christian reminder, and to illustrate that point I will just say that most here have picked their cross up but are not carrying it yet, but time will tell. (Heb 5:12) Please read the commentary!!
    
    This may or may not be a good example, but staying in the org after you know that it's not right is kinda like quitting a job that you were getting paid for, but now you keep going to that job even though you know you're not gonna get paid.

    • Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-06-09 04:15:54

      And the wheat and the weeds grow TOGETHER until the harvest. We will find out who the wheat are at the harvest.

      • Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-06-09 10:15:53

        True dat LJ??

    • Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-09 09:46:22

      Thank you Brain, very wise words and you to Leonardo. Robert is right, I need to calm down, it's not what we can do for Jesus, it's what he done for us that our salvation depends on.
      
      Psalmbee

      • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-09 16:21:14

        Consider Romans 5:7: "For hardly will anyone die for a righteous man; indeed, for the good man, perhaps, someone even dares to die." So the scriptures make a distinction between someone "righteous" - dedicated to being "right" and following rules - and a "good" person who is genuinely interested in helping others.
        
        Imperfect people CANNOT be righteous, not in the absolute sense. That is what makes perfectionism such a source of problems, since it's a vain pursuit that cannot be attained. At best, we can just work on it. But imperfect people CAN be good, by unselfishly seeking what is in the best interests of others.
        
        Our goal, within this forum and in life in general, should be to be good first, then righteous second, IMHO. After Jesus gave the illustration of the Samaritan, he told his listeners, Go therefore and be doing the same yourself. He didn't say, Go therefore and be righteous, since that wasn't fully possible. But, it is possible to be good.

    • Reply by rudytokarz on 2018-06-11 22:49:52

      I find myself in the situation that you refer to and, although I disagree with much of the 'doctrinal' points that I hear at the meetings, (PIMO I guess), I have lately been trying to set these aside mentally and focus on the thoughts and points that are scriptural. Wouldn't this be beneficial for all those associated with organized religion? They all have teachings that are obviously not backed by the scriptures.
      The problem is that WBTS/JWs will turn on you if you don't believe exactly as you are told; so I am very cautious on what I say and only to certain ones that are close. Does it matter if others believe the same as me? We have only the scriptures as the authority so I just try to adjust my thoughts and action to match them.

      • Reply by rudytokarz on 2018-06-12 18:59:39

        I have found the when a scripture is quoted or read to make some 'doctrinal' point, I will read the context around it, sometimes several chapters during the meeting while I listen halfway to what is being said. Many times I can determined if its being misapplied right then; although my wife doesn't think much of my 'technique', I do share some of the points with her later as she is still fully in.
        I have done more true Bible reading, study and meditation in the last few years than I have in my entire life even though I was raised "in the truth", baptized in 1978 amd an elder for over 10 years. This site has helped spur some of the questions which convinced me to read the scriptures in a whole new way thus applying Romans 12:2.

Comment by Dan on 2018-06-08 12:12:34

I'm trying to figure out a way to reword the letter so it doesn't reek of the same hypocrisy i'd accuse the organization of.
I registered to vote in local mayoral and town council elections. I haven't voted for a state representative or governor but my conscience would allow me to do that. As far as national elections go I think we all know it's a joke and it doesn't matter what party you vote for. I wrote In "Jesus Christ" for all my national election choices this last time.
A quick search on their part would show the result that I'm a registered voter. And probably a unceremonious, undated, unsigned, letter on Plain paper that says I'm no longer a witness would soon follow.
I haven't thought about all the different chess moves this could result in. Only logical move is a JC meeting that I wouldn't show for. I'd rather not give them the pleasure. But I'm wondering if anyone had some advice on wording?

I guess I could try and see if it would go unnoticed, but I would notice it, and that's my problem that's hanging me up.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-08 12:14:54

  The premise of the letter is that they are going against their own rules and their own judicial system. It doesn't mean we agree with their interpretation of what "separate from the world" means. Rather, it is that they, having set up a standard and punishing people for not conforming to it, are now guilty of the same offenses and worse.

  • Reply by Dan on 2018-06-08 12:21:55

    Thanks, that gives me an idea how to do this.

Comment by Alithia on 2018-06-10 00:25:24

For what it is worth you may like to read the contents of this link below and see that there is a similar wrestling among ex-Muslims around the world who are labelled Apostates and the penalty for being one is death in many countries. They are faced with the similar dilemma of whether to be true to themselves or consider all matters and be reasonable in the circumstances.

I think it may be a worthy exercise for some who have made categorical suggestions and comments as to what the right thing to do is,should read the article and then decide if they would still maintain their advice or suggestions as advisable, or is something they would do in the above situation. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

What is objectively true should be true for all people, for all time, at all places; if not then it is a subjective thing for each person to decide, and not be judged by others.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-09/double-lives:-the-secret-ex-muslim-network-in-australia/9811340?pfmredir=sm

• Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-06-10 05:45:00

  A good reminder, Alithia. I read your comments with interest, especially since your story. It is encouraging to know that we are not alone. But for Moslems it is worse than for us. Two wrongs, of course, do not make a right.

• Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-10 09:56:19

  Removed. I don't want to upset the "apple cart".

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-06-10 12:37:34

    Seriously? You are going to make a prejudicial and demeaning comment like that here?

    • Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-06-10 12:47:27

      No doubt. Completely uncalled for Psalmbee

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-06-10 05:50:17

Hi everyone. For those who are passing the carts, and are not known to those on the cart, and provided you are armed with a printout from the ARC or the Canade Supreme Court (easily obtained from the Internet), here are some ideas for a conversation, if you dare.
Another way of raising a few heckles
Approach those who are on the cart, in an area where they do not know you, and simply ask the question.
Q . Is it true you believe you are the only ones who will be saved at Armageddon ?
Subject to their reply
Q . So what will happen to those of other Christian religions ?
A. They will be destroyed.
Q. So what will happen to all other religions ?
A .They will all be wiped out at the same time.
Q. So what did your Organisation mean by this statement (do not show page ref 15937 of the ARC transcript)
"It would be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using".
A. Can I see that ?
Yes, I will give you a copy. Whether he has answered the question, I leave you to decide.
2. DISFELLOWSHIPPING
Q . Good morning. I understand that when you people practice disfellowshipping, that you are told not to speak to the person who is disfellowshipped. Is that correct ?
A. Yes
Q .Does that apply to a person if his son or father are disfellowshipped ?
A .yes
Q. I have a good friend who is/was one of Jehovah's people. Don't you think it is a little misleading to put the following on your website.
"What of a man who is disfellowshipped but whose wife and children are still Jehovah’s Witnesses? The religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue ".
A. That is if he is still living at home.
Q . Right, so what happens if he is not living at home.
A. Then we have little or no dealings with him
Q. So what did your representative mean when he said the following
A. Where is that from ?
Q .It's from the Canada Supreme Court session Dec 1 2017. Would you like a copy. You can look it up quite easily ?
A similar approach can be made over the UN affiliation, or any other subject you feel confident with.
What do you think ?

• Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-10 09:50:02

  I think that the ones who are dedicated to the doctrine will just look at it as a red herring fallacy.

• Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-06-10 12:31:18

  ( Pr 22:6)
  
  Some follow the nature of the beast unknowingly.