Rely on Jehovah when under Stress

– posted by Tadua

“I am … under great stress.” – 1 Samuel 1:15

 [From ws 6/19 p.8 Study Article 25: Aug 19-25, 2019]

Jehovah, understands how stress affects us. And he wants to help us deal with the challenges we face. (Read Philippians 4:6, 7)”

So states paragraph 3. This is probably the most helpful and important Scripture mentioned in the WT article, yet, sadly, they do not expand upon it. Is the WT study article writer unfamiliar with “the peace of God that excels all thought”. This “peace of God” is very important as it is practical and does work.

Philippians says “Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let YOUR petitions be made known to God; and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard YOUR hearts and YOUR mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.

Supplication means “to ask or beg for something earnestly or humbly”. We supplicate God, and he uses Christ Jesus to effectively administer that peace of mind. This is not an empty promise. While God and Jesus may not intervene on a person’s behalf and make the problem disappear, they do give a peace of mind unlike anything else. This peace enables one to cope with whatever stress or problem he or she might be undergoing.

Until one experiences this peace of God, it is difficult to fully appreciate the refuge that it is. Speaking for myself, these were just nice sounding, encouraging words until I came to experience firsthand a time of great stress. Then this promise was put to the test. The result was an experience which is difficult to describe. It certainly has no explanation in human terms.

Paragraphs 4-6 discuss the example of Elijah, a man with feelings like ours. I am not sure of the point of this section. Yes, it is true that Elijah has feelings like ours, but he was also appointed with Holy Spirit to be a prophet. He had clear evidence of Jehovah’s blessing and protection in his life. On one occasion, he even had an angel help him regain strength. But none of that will happen to us today. None of us have been appointed as prophets to his people. None of us will get angelic help in the way Elijah did. Jehovah specifically assisted Elijah as God had chosen him to accomplish a certain purpose. He has not done that with anyone living on earth today.

The reason for including this seems to be to build up ones hope that God will intervene on our behalf today. However as paragraph 8 says. “He invites you to share your concerns with him and he will answer your cries for help....He [Jehovah] will not speak directly to you as he did to Elijah, but he will speak to you through his word The Bible, and through his Organization.”

As discussed many times, there is ample evidence the Organization is not Jehovah’s Organization but a man-made one.  Therefore, he will not speak to us through that Organization, although many Witnesses will claim he does, because of coincidences. If one regularly attends meetings and reads all the literature, the mathematical probability that the literature will cover some problem someone is facing is high. But Jehovah is not specifically targeting help to that one, despite what they might feel. The main way God can help us is that when we ask for help in prayer thereby indicating our willingness to accept guidance he could use Holy Spirit to bring to our minds what we have previously learnt in his word. As for being encouraged by brothers and sisters, they would have to be willing to work along with Holy Spirit as it does not force anyone to do something against their will.

Paragraphs 11-15 discuss briefly the examples of Hannah, David and an unknown psalmist. Paragraph 14 states: “The three true worshippers just mentioned all relied on Jehovah for help. They shared their anxiety with him through fervent prayer. They spoke freely to him about the reasons why they were so stressed. And they continued to go to Jehovah’s place of worship.​—1 Sam. 1:9, 10; Ps. 55:22; 73:17; 122:1.”

However, none of them went twice a week to a meeting with a prescribed format. Hannah went once a year to Shiloh, while for David and the psalmist the frequency is not mentioned. There was also clear evidence Jehovah had chosen the Israelites as his special people unlike today where there is no evidence that Jehovah and Jesus have chosen any particular religious Organization. Indeed, Jesus have a parable that indicates true Christians would be like individual stalks of wheat among weeds (Matthew 13:24-31).

Paragraph 16 highlights that “things changed when Nancy looked for ways to help others who were experiencing problems”. It is a well known fact that if we avoid being too introspective and put ourselves out to help others, physiologically our negative view of our own problems lessens. In part, this is because we often come into contact with others worse off than ourselves, which then helps put our own stress and problems in perspective. As Nancy said “I listened as others explained their struggles. I noticed that when I felt more empathy for them, I felt less pity for myself”.

Paragraph 17 gives Sophia’s view, which is the view the Organization wants us to follow.

“I have found that the more involved I am in the ministry and my congregation, the better I am able to deal with stress and worry.”

This is just a personal point of view the Organization is promoting because it suits them.

However, my personal experience is that it is often exactly this which causes stress and problems for many Witnesses as they try to bury their stress and problems under more and more ministry in the belief that by doing this, Jehovah will solve all their problems for them, which actually increases the stress rather than reducing it. This promoted view of Sophia’s is dangerous as it has become the stock answer given by elders to Witnesses with all sorts of problems.  Whether marriage problems, loss of loved ones, financial difficulties, the answer given is the same: Do more in Jehovah’s service—by which they mean serve the Organization—and no attempt is made to tackle the cause of the problems.

The concluding paragraph (19) gives Romans 8:37-39 as the read scripture, but does not discuss it. It reads “On the contrary, in all these things we are coming off completely victorious through the one who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The verses immediately prior to this state: “Who will separate us from the love of the Christ? Will tribulation or distress or persecution or hunger or nakedness or danger or sword?  Just as it is written: “For your sake we are being put to death all day long, we have been accounted as sheep for slaughtering.”

As the context shows, these verses were written specifically about and for the early Christians undergoing vicious persecution because of their acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. It was not talking about everyday stress and trials of life, although of course the principle can be extended to that. These verses reassure us that nothing has the power to stop us as Christians ultimately receiving Christ’s love, except ourselves.  Yet, bear in mind that these verses are addressing spirit anointed Christians.

This scripture can actually reassure us that the fear, obligation and guilt that the Organization tries to instill in all Witnesses will fail, as compliance with it is not what will determine our future under Christ’s Kingdom. Rather it will be Christ’s merciful, unconditional love, and on our part simply doing our best to be true Christians.

Archived Comments

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  • Comment by River on 2019-08-19 04:20:13

    Fine article. Today as an exjw, I wonder about the meaning of talking of the expression: spirit annointed. In this area there is, I think, so much falsehood as can be.
    You should be one of God's children following Romans 8:16, what else?You should be a spirit in accordance to 1 Corinthians 2:11, what else? You should be spiritual letting your spirit be harmonized with God's and Christ's spirit, 1 Corinthians 2:13-16, what else?
    By mercy, some have God's spirit and some haven't (Romans 9:18, or better read the hole chapter). The one without the likeliness of God are not to be converted but destroyed like animals without spirit (Romans 9:21,22).
    You can go from unrighteous to righteous in the moment you realize who and what you already were accordant to Romans 5:1,2.
    By the way the faith in itself is a fruit from your own spirit, what else?

  • Comment by if ever on 2019-08-22 19:16:10

    Much appreciated that you continue to review the study articles objectively and thoroughly Tadua.
    Would take much time and review and then the write up as well. Lost -in-Space, myself and no doubt many others read and reflect on your worthy commentary.

  • Comment by messenger on 2019-08-25 16:18:01

    Acts 2: 17,18:
    17“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
    that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
    and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    and your young men shall see visions,
    and your old men shall dream dreams;
    18 even on my male servants and female servants
    in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy."

    All who are chosen to be part of Christ’s church receive the gift of Holy Spirit. And Christ’s church members are sealed right up to the time of that “great tribulation” Christ said would come at Revelation 7:14. See Revelation 7:3, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” Those servants of God are sealed by receiving God’s Holy Spirit, which bears witness to them that they are God’s children. “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,” Romans 8:16.

    In the speech Peter gave, where he quoted Joel at Acts 2:17,18, Peter also said to them:

    “Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (Acts2:38,39)

    Peter confirmed that the gift of Holy Spirit was not only given in the apostles’ day, as Peter described it at Acts 2:17, but it will be given to “as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself,” including some of those children his immediate audience had, and some of those children they would have in the future, along with future generations of some Christians. In that same speech Peter also stated that the time period he called “the last days” had already begun. However, in that speech he did not say when that time period would end. In biblical writings Peter does not indicate when that time period he referred to as the Last Days will end until he wrote one of his letters. In his second letter Peter described the period of the“Last Days” as a period extending until the world, as we know it, ends:

    “3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” 2Peter3:3-7

    Even though Watchtower was wrong in its assessment of John 10:16, believing and teaching there are two classes of Christians described in that scripture, when there are not. Nevertheless, despite WT’s misapplication of that particular scripture, there are very many scriptures that indicate there are, in fact, two classes of Christians, those chosen and anointed by God’s Holy Spirit, and those who are called Christians, and who also call themselves Christians, but they are not anointed by God’s Holy Spirit. Both the Father and Son specifically assist all their anointed earthly children individually, as they were chosen to take part in God's purpose, and they were seen fulfilling their parts in his purpose, even before they were born.

  • Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-08-26 02:00:14

    Good afternoon to all of you, and Eric I hope you are settling in well and many thanks to the family that has been kind to you and to all of us for helping you set up.

    The public speaker and myself got into an unusual discussion about creation, especially in line of Colossians 1: 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

    I asked the speaker to explain who created all these things? Jehovah or Jesus? He said the scriptures are self-explanatory, it’s Jesus. So, I asked then why did you kept saying it was Jehovah who created everything in heavens and the earth including us?

    He said that's what the outline said and I cannot deviate from it. I said fine, but tell me who do you think created all things? He said it doesn't matter. So I asked him, can I be disfellowshipped for blaspheming the name of Christ, or spreading a lie in the name of Jehovah? He said YES.

    So, I asked him if he knew he was spreading a lie, and how Jehovah and Jesus felt about it?

    He said I was reading to much into the scriptures and we are NOT GB to interpret the scriptures and he just walked away, and most of the brothers and sisters said how wonderful the talk was.

    Am I reading to much into the scriptures? I dont know.

    Love to all

    • Reply by messenger on 2019-08-26 03:03:03

      Hello James,

      The word "other", in "all other things were created," written at Colossians 1:16 in the NWT, is a misapplication of that scripture in your Bible. This is how that scripture was actually written:

      "For by him (Christ) all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him (Christ)."

      The actual apostolic scripture, without that WT addition (other) in the NWT, claims Christ created all things, not that he created "all other things." WT inserted the word "other" to promote their teaching that Christ is a created being. That is an idea that is unclear in scripture, and because it is most Christians deny it and instead believe Christ was not created.

      Scriptures do claim Christ to be the "first born" in the creation by God, but the designation "first-born" was also given to David in scripture, to denote the prominent position David held in God's purpose. If I remember correctly David was the last son born to his Father, not the first. Therefore, that title, "firstborn," could not be taken literally. In the ancient Jewish religion "firstborn" also denoted a position of prominence held by that family member. The same is likely with that designation as it is applied to Christ, just as it was meant to be with David. As for Christ's title, the "only begotten Son of God," that again could refer to his prominent position, being the only one holding that position, or it could refer to the fact that Christ was the only man ever conceived by a woman who was impregnated by God.

      As with my past advice I caution you not to challenge your elders with ideas that threaten WT beliefs. That is if you choose to remain a JW. But if you choose not to remain a JW here are a couple more points you might raise with that same elder. Ask that elder about this part of Colossians 1:16, "all things were created through him and for him" (Christ). You might ask, I thought God created all things for himself? If the elder says God did, then ask him, then according to Col 1:16, (all things were created through him and for him) is Christ God, since the scripture states all things were created for Christ? And at another place Christ said all things the Father has are his. If the elder says no, Christ is not God, then ask him, Isaiah 9:6 says Christ will be called God, so does that scripture mean apostate Christian will call him God, or does it mean true Christians will call him God? Also ask, If the designation "god" that the NWT wrote into John 1:1 means a quality, and not a position, then can you be considered a god once you perfectly attain Christ like qualities?

      • Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-08-26 20:41:50

        Messenger my brother

        You come up with some beauties of scriptures, I will look into "only begotten" and its meaning.

        Again an elder in our congregation who thinks he is a Greek scholar , gave me a lecture about John 1:1, definite article and indefinite article (the & a) in front of the word God or god, and he said Theo and Theon are always dealing with Jehovah and his worship, and Theos are dealing with a lessor god.

        Revelation 4:8,11 John is using definite article in our kingdom interlinear - the god - Theos and not Theon or Theo, so I went back to him, and asked, can you please explain about this definite article in front of Theos? Is NWT wrong ?

        You should have seen his face, as he did not have an explanation to offer, except I should write to the society for an answer.

        I am not going to and I left it at that. Eric is still waiting for an answer from GB.

        Thanks again messenger.

        • Reply by messenger on 2019-08-27 03:32:51

          Hello James,

          That's what happens when lay people attempt to act as experts, especially when they have bought into a belief system that true experts don't support. The translators of the NWT were not Greek scholars. Neither is your elder friend a Greek expert. One of my friends was in on writing the NWT's appendix article on the reason that translation translates John 1:1 as "a god" and not God, when referring to Christ. I can assure you my friend was no Greek scholar.

          The elder you spoke to misled you by teaching you a couple errors. First, he said, "Theo and Theon are always dealing with Jehovah and his worship, and Theos is dealing with a lesser god." That is proven wrong by examining Matthew 3:9. In that scripture Theos is applied to the Father. You might suggest to that elder that he should look that up in an interlinear Bible.

          As for the definite article always having to be inserted preceding the noun Theo when referring to the Father, suggest to him that he should look up John1:6,12,13,18 in a Bible interlinear. None of those scriptures precede the noun Theou with an article, and they all refer to the Father.

          You might also refer him to the footnote written on John 1:1 in the English Standard Version Study Bible, which explains why Greek scholars claim an article need not always precede Theou, or Theos when referring to the noun God. He might ask you where you got this information. You might answer, that's where it can be found, without mentioning your discussion with me on this page.

          As for "only begotten Son."

          beget means

          make children
          “Abraham begot Isaac”

          The man Jesus was born of a woman impregnated by God. Since he was the only man born by that process, Christ could be referred to as God's only begotten Son for that reason alone. Is that the only reason he carries that title? I don't know, but it is a factual reason the Bible might have given him that designation. If he was created by the Father, that could be another reason. Also, that the title is denoting a superior position over others could be the reason. The Bible is unclear as to why he bears that designation. One thing that is clear about it is that it designates Jesus has a relationship to the Father that is unique.

        • Reply by messenger on 2019-08-27 03:45:26

          Right James Theos is used at Revelation 4:8 and Rev 4:11. In my comment below I shared another scripture in which Theos applies to the Father, along with some other points.

          Take care.

          • Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-08-27 19:48:14

            Thanks messenger

            Much appreciated and I will have to be careful who I share this information with.

            Again thanks and take care

            • Reply by messenger on 2019-08-27 20:41:39

              You are very welcome James.

    • Reply by Frankie on 2019-08-26 15:46:46

      Hi Jamesbrown

      As to your final question - reading the Bible will be never enough! This is one of several ways through which our heavenly Father acts. But I think your discussions with men in responsible positions within your cong will not be useful, unless they would be PIMO and your real friends.
      If I may give some advise, please try to find open-minded brothers/sisters and start with less controversial questions to gradually find out anointed ones (if any).
      Love, Frankie

      • Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-08-26 20:03:17

        Good morning Frankie

        You are right about the elders and being cautious, because awhile ago I said reading the bible is ALL there is for me to know the father and the son and future purposes. The elder laughed and said we need the GB to help us understand the bible. It was pointless for me to argue with a physical man who looks to man for guidance.

        In our congregation everyone is in fear of man, and more than happy to dob in someone who is NOT going according to GB teaching.

        Frankie my brother if you come across any scriptures that I can share with certain ones let me know and make them reason, please let me know.

        Take care and thanks again.

        • Reply by Frankie on 2019-08-27 18:16:53

          Hi brother Jamesbrown.

          Your position in your cong is not easy. But our Lord is with you and this is crucial. As for scriptures you would use in discussions with brothers/sisters - I would try to use topic concerning how our heavenly Father acts using His Holy Spirit. Bible was written under inspiration, so if I read Bible, Holy Spirit influences me directly, not only through GB. Useful may be the Messenger's analysis of Acts 2: 17,18 below.

          In this connection (Holy Spirit acting) you can place the issue of ministry on the basis of 1 Cor 12:4-31. Did Paul speak about which gift according to God's will or kind of ministry are more important? Ask them which kind of ministry is better, what would Jesus approve in case you have to take decision between door-to-door or care for you ill mom. If the ministry is sacrifice of praise, what about of Matt 12:7. I don't know if such topics would not be on the edge.

          But I think, such discussions in your cong would not be very building for you. Answers you will receive would be probably in line with GB and they have always the "ace in the sleeve” - are you smarter than GB? This site BP contains lot of useful information for you, e.g. in section BP Archive.
          Love, Frankie

  • Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-08-27 18:58:00

    Good morning Frankie

    I really appreciate your suggestions and will act on them.

    Take care

    • Reply by Frankie on 2019-08-28 16:04:18

      Hi dear brother Jamesbrown.

      If I may, I would like to depict you another interpretation of words "only begotten Son", which captures (IMHO) relation between God and His Son and which would resolve issues of usage of definite and indefinite articles, or lower-case and upper-case letters (God/god), as well as why Jesus is called either Son of man or Son of God.

      Divine substance of our Lord can hardly be explained by birth with participation of man (Mary). Jesus, when on Earth called himself the Son of Man. God begot Him of a woman as perfect man, but He could die. Only as perfect man, „ ... who takes away the sin of the world!“ (John 1:29, KJV) could free all from death through His sacrifice (Heb 9:26). But in heaven, Jesus is called as Son of God, not the Son of man. Therefore, the context of John 1:18 and John 1:1 is important. Only begotten Son of God (and not the Son of man) is (now) in the bosom of the Father in heaven. Thus, according to my spirit, the words "only begotten Son" say that God begot His Son in heaven. Let’s look at another context.

      The glory of Jesus in heaven, before He came on Earth, was quite different to His position when He was on Earth (John 17:5). In heaven, Jesus has the glory of only begotten Son of God Himself. Through God’s Word, ALL things, both material and immaterial, have been created (John 1:3). So Jesus Himself was not created, because in that case he would have to create himself. He was not created, He is ONLY begotten - he has no siblings [Note 1]. Our heavenly Father did not give birth DIRECTLY to anyone but the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ: "For unto which of the ANGELS said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" (Heb 1:5, KJV). In this verse, the birth of Jesus is mentioned in context with angels, with heavenly realm, not with man. Here, the verse speaks of procreation in heaven. Let’s continue.

      Jesus has the life in himself. This life He inherited from His Father (John 5:26). No one but the Father has this quality. Jesus when in heaven, as Son of God, cannot die, he is eternal (1 John 5:11). But what about Jesus’ death on Earth? This could only happen when he was born as a perfect man, but also a mortal man, so that it was the only possibility to compensate Adam's sin with Jesus’ sacrifice (Heb 9:12; 1 Cor 15:45).

      Let me give you an example. Human father begets his son. The father is MAN, so also his son is MAN (his son has the father’s genes, he is the image of human father, he has the human substance). Similarly, when the father is GOD, also His Son is GOD (the Son has Father’s „genes“ and nature, He is the image of His divine Father, he has divine substance). Everything else is "just" a creature.

      And so, just like the human son acknowledges that his beloved father is greater than him, similarly the Son of God acknowledges that his beloved Father is greater than Him (John 14:28). And at the very end, when all things are as they should be, „then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him“ (1 Cor 15:28, KJV). BTW, these verses are badly anti-Trinitarian.

      If God begot His Son as the Word (in full meaning of the word) and there was neither Universe nor spiritual creatures (John 1:2) [Note 2], then there is no problem with definite and indefinite articles, or lower-case and upper-case letters (God/god) in verses John 1:1 or John 20:28 and such issues are irrelevant. The only ones who have a divine nature, divine "genes," are God and His only begotten Son. Nobody else. Therefore, Jesus did not even protest when Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). The above example shows that Thomas was right.

      In conclusion - the words "only begotten Son" don’t mean a title or significance, but that is exactly what God tells us in the Bible - Jesus is the Son of God in the full meaning of this word, begotten by God when the Universe did not yet exist.

      Note 1: In this comment I am not dealing with the explanation of Col. 1:15, in which two terms are given with different contexts - the firstborn and creation.

      Note 2: BTW, there is no problem with the words "in the beginning" of John 1: 1. The words "in the beginning" refer to the concept of time, and time began to exist only with the creation of the Universe, because time is an attribute of matter and we live in a 4-dimensional Universe (for example, relativistic physics operates with 4 tensors - x, y, z, t). Thus, "in the beginning," at the moment of the start of universe, both the Father and the Son already existed, and at that time (time=0), the Son was already with His Father (John 1:2).

      Heb 13:6. Love, Frankie

      • Reply by messenger on 2019-08-29 23:45:51

        Hello Frankie,

        I am writing you to let you know that in my comment, the one that is a few comments above this one, I did not mean that I disagree with your statement that Christ was, in essence, born of the Father in heaven. I have always leaned towards that belief myself, and I still do. In the comment above I am, instead, saying that I am just not sure if that is the case, because of other possible alternative interpretations of Christ's titles. But whether born from the Father in heaven, or always existing alongside the Father, scriptures show they are the same type of being.

        "....who being the radiance of [His] glory and [the] exact expression of [the] substance of [Him]..." *interlinear-the original word for word translation of a part of Hebrews 1:3, before making allowances for grammar, except for those bracketed words.

        • Reply by Frankie on 2019-08-31 15:11:57

          Hi Messenger.

          OK dear brother, we have the same view. As you wrote: " .... they are the same type of being”. Yes, divine being. Similarly, as I wrote before in parable, my beloved late father and me were also the same type of being - human being.
          And yes, the glorified Jesus sits next to his Father, who is greater than Jesus " ... on the right hand of the Majesty on high” (KJV) and He is waiting for "action” (Dan 2:44), and we are waiting patiently for Him (James 5:8).
          Love, Frankie.

  • Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-08-28 20:00:57

    Good morning Frankie

    Food for thought of what you have come up with and I will pray and for Jehovah to help me understand what you said.

    Many thanks my brother.

    • Reply by Frankie on 2019-08-29 17:30:29

      Dear brother, my comment may be a bit complex, but please try to follow scriptures I cited, as well as their cross-references in your Bible. Please, note the parable about the nature of the human father and his son and of God Jehovah and his Son Jesus Christ (or Word) and their relations. If you would have any question about my comment, please contact me via e-mail (Eric knows my address).
      God bless you. Frankie.

  • Comment by messenger on 2019-08-29 06:44:01

    I agree with Frankie that to Christians and angels Christ is God. My belief is that the point is logically undeniably, because of scriptures like Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1 that title Christ God, as well as the scripture Frankie shared about Christ sharing the very nature of the Father, and scriptures relating to the creation and ownership of the universe. I believe WT was so successful in getting us to believe that to be untrue, because when teaching it is untrue WT focused on the relationship between the Father and Son, instead of those relationships between each of them, as individuals, and us.

    It's not clear to me if Christ was born in heaven or always existed like the Father though, because of those points I brought out earlier about the possible meaning of Christ's names.

    Because the tetragrammaton was not used by Christ in scripture and other reasons, brought out in scripture, I am also not sure if that name, to the Father and Son, represents them both, or just the Father. In the same way the White House represents more than one person. One of those other reasons is that the tetragrammaton states its glory will not be shared with another, which is something that is shared between the Father and Son.

    Gospel scriptures and Revelation show they both have Holy Spirit, which appears to be part of what they are, including their intelligence and ability to perceive and communicate, as well as act.

  • Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-08-30 01:27:54

    Hi messenger

    Am I correct in saying that you are saying that Jehovah and Jesus "could be" the same?

    • Reply by messenger on 2019-08-30 10:57:41

      Hello James. Yes in a way I raised that possibility, but not in the way most people probably understand your question. My statement was, I am not sure if that name Jehovah as written in scripture represents only the Father, or if it represents instead the Father and Son together while sometimes representing either of them individually. The same could be true of the pronouns which only denote a singular individual, such as "he" or "I" while representing the name Jehovah. In the same way the beast of Revelation is called "he," (singular). Though scriptures claim the beast of Revelation has ten horns representing ten kings. I raised the point as a possibility, not that it is an established fact to me.

    • Reply by messenger on 2019-09-02 15:01:06

      Compare the statement made in Joel 2:32, which uses the tetragrammaton, to statements made in 1 Corinthians 1:2-3 and Matthew 28:19, and you might understand my point that the tetragrammaton might denote the Father and Son working together in places while possibly describing them individually in other places. Because in every instance the Father or Son is mentioned in scripture they are working for the same purposes, as God. Hence Christ's statement that if you have seen him you have also seen the Father would be a logical conclusion, if this possibility is fact. Although not enough to prove the tetragrammaton represents them both, that statement could be taken as implying the tetragrammaton, first century Jews were familiar with, represents both Christ and the Father. Since New Testament scriptures show that they both receive worship; they are both titled God; together they worked as one individual throughout the Old Testament, there is the possibility that name relates to both of them.

      The tetragrammaton is only proven to have been written in the original writings of the Old Testament, not the original writings of the New Testament. Christ taught many new ideas to Christians that were not covered in those older writings. But when he did cite scriptures when referring to the Old Testament, there is no proof he used the tetragrammaton. The fact he never cited the tetragrammaton (or we don't have proof he did in scripture) also raises a suspicion in me that the name could also apply to himself alongside the Father.

      Also, read Revelation 22:21, which requests the grace of Christ to be with God's people, when Christians know they are only saved due to God's grace (Romans 11:6). See also, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:7, Romans 5:15, Eph 1:6.

  • Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-08-30 01:43:53

    Hi Frankie

    Thanks for your reply

    From what I am getting from your comments, do you mean there is a difference between being "created" and being the "only begotten son of God"?

    Many thanks again

    • Reply by Frankie on 2019-08-31 14:25:55

      Hi Jamesbrown

      Yes, according to my actual knowledge (IMHO) and based on texts mentioned before, please look particularly at this one: "For unto which of the ANGELS said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" (Heb 1:5, KJV).
      In this text are two things in contrast, using the verb BEGET - Jesus and angles. Our beloved brother Paul here said that Jesus has been begotten, citing Psalm 2:7 and 2 Sam 7:14. This action obviously took place in heaven, because Paul mentioned angles, not men.

      We know, that through Jesus has been created ALL things (John 1:1), material and non-material, including angels. None of the angels was begotten - "For unto which of the angels said he at any time ... ", but angels were created. And Jesus was not created (see my previous comments).

      As for meaning of the word "beget”, the Thesaurus of Merriam-Webster lists for this word (
      1. to be the cause of (a situation, action, or state of mind),
      2. to become the father of

      ... and God became Father of Jesus, because Jesus is called in NT as Son of God.

      BTW, your reasoning during discussion with elders, mentioned by latest Eric's article, is absolutely brilliant ( You made my day! I must remember it and it will be one of charges in my spiritual gun :o) . Thank you brother.
      Love, Frankie.

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