“We cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.” - Acts 4:19-20.
[From ws 7/19 p.8 Study Article 28: Sept 9 - Sept 15, 2019]
Paragraph 1 refers back to the previous Watchtower Study article entitled “Prepare now for Persecution”
The article raises the question “Does persecution mean that we have lost God’s favour?”
Perhaps a more pertinent question is: Did the Organization ever have God’s favour?
“If a government bans our worship, we might wrongly conclude that we do not have God’s blessing. But remember persecution does not mean that Jehovah is unhappy with us.” (Par.3)
One could also wrongly conclude that ‘we’ (the Organization) do have God’s blessing, and that Jehovah is happy with us and so ‘we’ (the Organization) are a target for persecution. But both conclusions are erroneous, because they are based on the premise that God’s blessing was and still is on the Organization, which while claimed, is unprovable. The most common so-called evidence of God’s blessing is the continual increase. This increase, even according to the official figures is hardly dramatic, mostly not even keeping up with the World’s population growth. Add to this the constant news of the sale of Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls from around the world, then the continued claims of increase ring hollow.
The undisputed fact that “We learn from the apostle Paul’s experience that Jehovah allows his faithful servants to be persecuted” does not confirm or deny the point really at issue, which is whether the Organization is a faithful servant.
Additionally, as discussed last week, Governments and others may take actions interpreted by the Organization as persecution, but in reality these actions against the Organization are based on it teaching and practicing activities that harm the Organization’s adherents and hence harm the Government’s citizens, which the Government has a duty and a right to defend and protect.
Paragraph 4 claims “Persecution is not a sign that we lack Jehovah’s blessing. Instead, it indicates that we are doing what is right!”.
Is the Organization persecuted because of refusing to support war? No, not usually. Only occasionally do some countries have problems with conscientious objectors, often mistaking them for shirkers.
Is the Organization persecuted for teaching their children Moral standards from the Bible? No.
Is the Organization persecuted for not doing enough to greatly reduce the problem of child abuse? Yes. They display an intransigent stance, and instead of having the best child protection policies, have some of the worst child protection policies of any secular or religious Organization.
Is the Organization persecuted for its unchristian judicial system, especially the inhuman shunning policy? Yes. Once again, they display an intransigent stance, which breaks up families and drives people to suicide, all because the Organization is trying to control its members from leaving in larger numbers.
The doubling of Witnesses during World War II as highlighted in paragraph 5 could undoubtedly just as easily be caused by the then prevailing terrible world conditions in conjunction with the tempting hope of the nearness of Armageddon which would usher in the peaceful world they wished to enjoy, rather than Jehovah’s blessing.
The comments in paragraph 6 that “many who had stopped serving Jehovah began to attend meetings and were reactivated” in countries where a ban started, could just as easily be caused by fear among these ones that the persecution meant Armageddon was close due to the constant linking of persecution with Armageddon as also experienced in this article.
“Should I move to another land?”
In paragraphs 8 & 9 the article attempts to limit the exodus of Witnesses from lands under persecution, by giving reasons for leaving and reasons for staying. However, in doing so it uses the same subtle reasoning as is used with the subject of higher education. The article suggests you could leave lands under persecution and that is your personal decision. “However”, it says, “others (subtext: the spiritually minded ones) might note that...the Apostle Paul, (subtext: the really spiritual Brother compared to the ones who fled) decided not to move away from areas where the preaching work was opposed”. Of course, the Organization also says higher education is also a personal choice and no one should criticize someone’s choice, but on the other hand it really recommends the removal of elders who send a son or daughter to university, (in letters and publications available only to elders)[i] because they are going against the recommendation of the Governing Body.
The next paragraphs deal with the question:
How will we worship while under ban?
The only two aspects of worship dealt with in this section are keeping up with the Organizations material by meeting together, no doubt to ensure the indoctrination continues, and to continue the preaching of the Organization's teachings.
Traps to avoid
Avoid sharing too much information.
Do not allow minor issues to divide you.
Avoid being presumptious: In paragraph 17 we are given the following experience: “For example, in a land where the work is under ban, the responsible brothers had directed that the publishers not leave printed literature in the ministry. Yet, a pioneer brother in that location felt that he knew better and distributed literature. What was the result? Shortly after he and some others finished a period of informal witnessing, they were questioned by the police. Apparently, officials had followed them and were able to retrieve the literature they had distributed”.
As we cannot read hearts, it is difficult to know for sure why the pioneer brother continued to distribute literature. However, one very plausible explanation is as follows:
As a pioneer, especially if he had been serving for some time, he would have been conditioned to use the Organization’s literature as the end goal in any call. The general intention behind this is to have a study of the publication What Can the Bible Teach Us? with the aid of the Bible with any interested ones. This is to ensure that all Bible Studies learn the teachings of the Bible as interpreted by the Organization. He, therefore, most likely felt the literature was so important he could disregard the instructions of the local elders and continue as before the ban, especially if an explanation behind the reasoning leading to the instructions was not shared with the brothers.
Paragraph 18 states: “Jehovah has not given us authority to make personal decisions for others. Someone who makes needless rules is not protecting his brother’s safety—he is trying to become the master of his brother’s faith.—2 Cor. 1:24”
“Physician, heal thyself” is a familiar phrase that comes to mind. Over many years, the “Questions from Readers” section in the Watchtower and the Organization’s headquarters service desk has opined and made rules for Witnesses across the whole spectrum of Witness life and Witnesses personal lives. Instead of allowing Witnesses to make their own decisions on most things based on a Bible-trained conscience, the decisions on many things have been taken out of their hands. On top of that, local congregation bodies of elders have made their own rules despite counsel not to. Such as, brothers being required to be wearing a matching suit jacket and trousers when on the platform, and in some places, a white shirt as well. Also, the continued unwritten rule in many western lands that brothers with beards cannot be used as public speakers and assembly speakers.
This has led to the environment where many Witnesses prefer the decisions to be made for them and will confess this viewpoint, rather than being responsible and making their own Bible trained conscience decisions.
In conclusion
A very predictable article given the subject matter, with no attempt to discuss the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is: What is behind the majority of persecution? And, how would we know we are being blessed by Jehovah as an Organization and persecuted because of being his faithful servants?
________________________________
[i] Watchtower Publication: Shepherd the Flock of God – (for elders only): Shepherd sfl_E 2019, Chapter 8 section 30 page 46: Under the heading “SITUATIONS THAT MAY REQUIRE A REVIEW OF AN APPOINTED BROTHER’S QUALIFICATIONS”
He or a Member of His Household Pursues Higher Education:
If an appointed brother, his wife, or his children pursue higher education, does his life pattern show that he puts Kingdom interests first in his life? (w05 10/1 p. 27 par. 6) Does he teach his family members to put Kingdom interests first? Does he respect what has been published by the faithful slave on the dangers of higher education? Do his speech and conduct reveal that he is a spiritual person? How is he viewed by the congregation? Why is he or his family pursuing higher learning? Do they have theocratic goals? Does the pursuit of higher education interfere with regular meeting attendance, meaningful participation in field service, or other theocratic activities?
Archived Comments
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Comment by Scrubmaster on 2019-09-08 10:21:16
A while ago I can across this website https://www.persecution.org/. The most interesting part is, in many of the lands where JW are perscuted all Christians are being persecuted. The site is concerned with the persecution of all Christians including JW. I found this to be an eye-opener. However, the organization does not mention all Christian are being persecuted in the same lands JW's are such as Eritrea and Russian. I say this to say, JW's are not the only Christians being persecuted. But I also agree with Tadua, the coming to light of how the society handles child pedophile cases and the shunning policy is not persecution. Just like when Jehovah would punish the nation of Isreal for their wrongdoing and finally ending up casting them off, because they would not change and accept his son, Jesus,
Comment by Psalmbee on 2019-09-08 14:08:55
Hello to all,
Okay, so they say there is 8.5 mil JW's there about. Now since yesterday was Saturday and their main day for field ministry, let's just say that 2 mil went out in service around the World. Now lets say that 1 mil was successful in getting just one person to start coming to the meetings or having a book study. That would be a positive increase would it not?
Now think about how long they have been claiming to have 8.5 mil members that cant even get just one person to accept their invitation, week after week after week no increase in numbers, now it's turned into year after year after year with no increase. So when you get right down to it, if each one could just get one person to join every week or lets say every month, their population should be doubling at a rapid pace, but it is not! It seems that they are stuck in quicksand with no increase at all.
I would be ashamed to call myself a publisher if I couldn't lasso in just one person a month.
How many years have they been stagnant at 8.5 mil? Why cant 8.5 mil get just one person each to come in, and make it 17 mil.
A lot of untalented preaching it would seem, to say the least.
As long as they can keep the 8.5 mil that they say they have, they can stay operational. (I don't believe they have that many.)
Psalmbee (Joel 2:23)
Comment by messenger on 2019-09-08 14:12:48
That's a very hypocritical statement Watchtower makes in paragraph 18, of the Watchtower article.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-09-09 05:31:21
Fair comment JW (is that a co-incidence ? ).
Look back 25 years in Britain (that's because that is where I live, but there are plenty of other countries with similar results), and you will find the hours spent is much the same, while the Memorial attendance has actually fallen). But the population has increased by some 12%.
So pioneers are working hard just to maintain the status quo . I wonder what that says.Reply by messenger on 2019-09-10 02:18:36
Your pseudonym is a minor point. Abbreviated JW, it sounds okay to use; that might even prove beneficial. It seems most WT believing Jehovah's Witnesses, who read this site, do not comment here. There are JWs who comment, but they comment against many of WT's teachings and policies-so they obviously don't believe in following all WT teachings. It's reasonable to assume WT believing Jehovah's Witness feel apprehensive about commenting. Possibly they have a fear of getting found out, by getting tracked down somehow, and turned in to Watchtower.
So, we, as commenters, can only throw out points that might make them think. We do this, while they don't engage us in challenging the logic of our points. But still our points are seeds that might grow. If so, eventually they will talk. Your handle abbreviation, JW, might be helpful. I don't see how it can be harmful. Most commenters here still are, or used to be, Jehovah's Witnesses.
I don't keep good track of time, so I can't say how long I have commented here. It seems about a year to me. And during that time I don't remember reading comments from JWs who believe WT's teaching that it is what it claims to be.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-09-10 09:43:21
I have probably been reading and commenting on this site for four years. Thanks to Eric and the rest of you, I was woken up to realise the many wrong teachings of JW.Org. I read Ray Franz books (at least most of them) and Karl Olof Jonsson and it dawned on me that what I thought had been an organisation interested in truth, was more interested in its own self perpetuation. The fact that there are many of you who feel the same, and still have faith in the Bible, helps keep my sanity. I am, though who knows how long for, PIMO. I am only in because I have family in still, although I realise I may have to face this hurdle at some time. Fortunately I think my wife is as much PIMO as I am.
It is a long time since anyone commented with support of JW teachings, although this does not mean every one of them is wrong, just as I do not agree with every comment on this site.
However, at least those here seem to be genuinely concerned at getting at the truth of things, which is more than my experience indicates is the case for the JW Organisation.
I can never thank Eric enough for all he has done here. ??Reply by messenger on 2019-09-10 14:25:00
Salvation is not dependent on whether a Christian interprets the rich man and Lazarus story literally or figuratively. And that is the type of biblical information WT claims Christians must necessarily know to be saved. Because it is not most of Russell's doctrines are rather insignificant,except his teaching about salvation through Christ, and the worship of Christ along with the one he called Father.
However, Russell's acceptance of the title and exclusive position of the "faithful and discreet slave," of Matthew 24 : 45 is significant. It is because that idea to WT places him as God's ultimate authority on Earth. If Russell finds he is judged adversely by Christ, it will be for that reason. If so, his other biblical beliefs won't matter, not to Christ. Russell proved to be the founder of a Christian cult by accepting the exclusivity of that title.
Comment by NikL on 2019-09-09 10:17:26
I got a good chuckle from searching out the quote from Emily B. Baran in Par. 13.
When I highlighted it and let Google do it's thing, it brought up a website called "CultNews101"
https://www.cultnews101.com/2017/04/why-banning-jehovahs-witnesses-wont.html
Hahahahahaha
Comment by Maxwell on 2019-09-09 18:43:33
This policy was changed in 1996. See the May 1, 1996 Watchtower article "Paying Back Caesar's Things to Caesar" on page 18.
Comment by messenger on 2019-09-10 02:52:04
"Keep Worshipping Jehovah When Under Ban." If you're a brother, and you get banned from positions of service by your body of elders because you are going to college or went to college, "keep worshipping Jehovah;" and by all means don't stop going in field service due to any elder-body or WT ban for whatever reason.
That was stated rather sarcastically, but this isn't. If you receive any ban by your congregation body of elders, who are usually working at the direction of WT, still KEEP SERVING JEHOVAH. WT is not God. If you keep serving Jehovah one day you will realize that more than you might right now. Then you will know WT is not as significant to God as you might believe it is. Not to imply WT has no significance at all, because WT acquainted all of us with Bible scriptures, and the concept of a biblical God. But if YOU keep worshipping God, then one day he will show himself to you. And that might not be as far off as you imagine it to be.
Here's a riddle. If Christ described a pattern of events that should help Christians identify the time period of his return, then why did he also teach Christians will not know when that time will come, until it comes, but instead they will be surprised by his arrival?
Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-09-11 23:24:35
First I would like to thank all of you for commenting on this website.
My brief meeting with the CO and the coordinator
Last night the above two met with me, my wife decided to leave with another witness shopping. As usual I gave a fervent prayer and asked Jehovah to help me to remember scriptures, or what I have read on this website, for my defence before they arrived.
CO said the body of elders think I have great potential for being MS in the congregation, BUT they are EXTREMELY concerned about my spirituality and my thinking.
CO said that he has been told by the body of elders that I made the statement “GB is Jesus on earth” and that I am bordering on blasphemy, so he asked” what do I have to say to that?
I find myself I am not coherent in putting my arguments together, for unknown reason, I began to ask questions in a calm way that I normally don’t ask.
I asked the CO what did Satan promise Eve that she will be if she listened to him? He said “she will be like God, then immediately he said, she believed the lie and they both blasphemed Jehovah”.
I asked “when did the last days begin?” The elder said 1914 CE. I read to them Matt 24: 32 “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near.
I said, when the scripture says “Just as soon as” that means the beginning of the end. CO said yes. Summer is one of the four seasons, correct? They said YES.
I said you asked if I believed if GB is Jesus on the earth, I don’t believe that any more, I believe that GB is God on earth, then I followed with this scripture from Acts 1: 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times “Dates” or seasons "Summer" that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.
All our publications have been teaching us 1914 “date” was the beginning of the last days, and just look at the seasons “Summer” to prove that we are living in the last days.
So, I followed with a question, who is telling us a lie and blaspheming Jehovah, is it GB or Jesus, since he said that “ONLY the father knows?”
I said again we have the “date” and the “season”, so, please explain to me, has the GB believed the lie that Satan told?
Well a JW doesn’t accuse the GB of being Satanic and gets away with it lightly.
I was told IF the body of elders hear anyone from the congregation with my views, then I will be disfellowshipped for apostasy.
The CO finished with the statement, “I will tell the elders to help you rethink your position”.
I said I would gladly welcome their spiritual conversations.
Love to allReply by messenger on 2019-09-12 02:33:16
Hello jamesbrown,
Scripturally you are correct. Christ never described an extensive pattern of events to help Christians identify the time period of his return. Many religions believe he did, but they hold that belief in error. Probably the best scriptures to help them understand their belief is not accurate are in the second half of Matthew chapter 24, and the whole chapter of Matthew 25. In those scriptures Christ was describing how Christians will be surprised when he comes, because they will be given no prior warning of his arrival.
What Christ WAS describing in the first half of Matthew 24 were events that began soon after he left and will continue until his return. The only statements that differ, because those descriptors do not continue to occur over that whole long period of time, are the world-wide Great Tribulation, and the signs in heaven occurring shortly before his return and the world's end. Historical facts prove everything else he shared there has been happening since he left. Christ's answer to his apostles harmonizes with their question. They didn't ask for a sign of any "Last Days." They asked, instead, for a sign of his return and end of the world, which is what he gave them. His specific sign in answer to that question were his statements consisting of signs in the heavens, and the final world-wide Great Tribulation. Both events will take Christians by surprise.
The problem you are in with your elders is that it will be impossible to convince them of this. If any one of them agrees with you, he will be disfellowshipped; and if any one of those elders is willing to get himself disfellowshipped for this, then he wouldn't presently hold that office of elder. If you agree with WT in order to keep peace, or you agree out of a desire not to be disfellowshipped, you will be denying your own belief, which is the correct (biblical) one. I believe we all know what Christ would do.
Based on this statement by your CO:
"I will tell the elders to help you rethink your position,”
it's my belief you won't be able to dance around this issue, or any other issue the elders bring up, where your views conflict with WT's.
The meaning of this other statement by your CO is unclear to me:
"I was told IF the body of elders hear anyone from the congregation with my views, then I will be disfellowshipped for apostasy."
I don't know if he was implying you might have convinced some other brother or sister there of your views, or he was saying if you keep your views you will be disfellowshipped-because you are someone in that congregation. No matter what he meant by that, elders can disfellowship you for having views that oppose WT's teachings, even if you are not spreading those to other Christians.
Because of your age there is a slim chance they don't disfellowship you, if you don't spread your ideas, while keeping your beliefs; but don't count on that. It is very unlikely. Elders will cover their own rear-ends, and if the circuit overseer finds out you don't believe the Governing Body's teachings, and the elders didn't do anything about it, then some of them might get removed as elder.
As always best wishes to you. If they DF you, or before, you might look up some of the scriptures where Christ said we will be kicked out of the church, and the ones kicking us out will believe they are rendering a sacred service to God by doing so. You might share that with them. It won't help you. But it might help one of them, if they think about what they did to you, or are about to do to you. Maybe their conscience will be moved.
Reply by rusticshore on 2019-09-12 22:28:15
God has allowed this diluting influence of the Gov Body and their leaders. It emanates from the same source as the truth. These men are nothing more than "super-fine apostles." Paul told the Corinthian congregation that the men presiding over them were merely ministers of righteousness who have disguised themselves as such, but were really agents of Satan. Funny thing, the Corinthian congregation did NOT recognize it, any more than many in the JW can with their leaders.
God has allowed an evil and Satanic presence, a "man of lawlessness" to have a foot hold in the congregation, and this will lead to the WT becoming completely apostate! The apostasy spoken of in the scriptures occur just before Jesus manifestation does away with the man of lawlessness.
The fact is, they may end up disfellowshipping themselves right into oblivion before Christ second coming!!Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-09-13 03:34:28
Thanks Rusticshore. Next week's midweek meeting includes an item where we see Gilead graduates, and the rest of us by virtue of its application, are told to put their trust in the Faithful slave on equal footing with trust in the scriptures. What ever happened to Psalm 146:3. There is nowhere in the scriptures where we are told to put our trust in anyone apart from Jesus Christ and Jehovah, so where does trust in the Faithful slave come from ?
This smokescreen will, sadly, fool many.
Reply by Tadua on 2019-09-14 06:05:29
Hi rusticshore
I agree with just asking’s comment.
It’s a process you go through. First you think that the Organization has been misled then they have gone apostate, then you realise they were never God’s Organization as you learn to rely more and more directly on the scriptures rather than any other religion.
Reply by messenger on 2019-09-13 15:30:39
Jamesbrown, keep praying to Jehovah. Sometimes when you're in the worst possible position, and you ask something of him concerning that bad position you are in, he shows himself to Christians. To you, at that time.
Comment by messenger on 2019-09-13 16:14:52
Christ used the metaphor of a seed that must die in order to become a larger plant, as he applied that idea to his life, and to the lives of every one of his followers.
Everyone that receives everlasting life will worship Christ as his/her God. Both humans and angels will do this, or they will die. This applies, of course, to all Jehovah Witnesses. Therefore, Jehovah's Witnesses will either die to WT's beliefs, or die forever at the hand of Christ. WT is apostate. It has always been apostate.Reply by messenger on 2019-09-15 10:22:03
Matthew 28:9,17; John 3:31; Revelation 22:9
Reply by Frankie on 2019-09-16 18:07:05
Hi Messenger.
Dear brother, I have some thoughts on your comment.
1. You wrote "Everyone that receives everlasting life will worship Christ as his/her God."
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life" (John 3:36) The condition for obtaining eternal life is faith in Jesus Christ, not His worship.
The word worship - "proskuneo" (Strong 4352) - has several meanings; Definition: to do REVERENCE to - Usage: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship [Biblehub].
Jesus is not Jehovah. God's name is YHWH. Jesus' name is Word. They both have the same substance (divine), but they are not the same person and not equal as to competence. Only Jehovah should be worshiped. "You shall have no other gods before me. (Deuteronomy 5:7). "Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, is the only YHWH" (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Jesus has all power in heaven and in earth, but this power was given to Him by His Father. The one that gives is greater than the one that takes (John 14:28). And in the end, Jesus will submit to His Father (1 Cor 15:27-28) " ..... that God [YHWH] may be all in all."
2. You wrote: "This applies, of course, to all Jehovah Witnesses. Therefore, Jehovah's Witnesses will either die to WT's beliefs, or die forever at the hand of Christ."
We are not competent to judge others, even on the basis of Scripture. It's not our business. God Himself " .... will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed." (Acts 17:31). Jesus knows everything about everyone. "He did not need any testimony about man, for He knew what was in a man." (John 2:25). And we don't know what is in heart of individual JW. Even if they were my enemies, I should love them. "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matt 5:44). Love them, my brother, and pray for them, please.
3. As for cited scriptures.
Revelation 22:9 - relates to YHWH
John 3:31 - " .... He who comes from heaven is above all.". Above all on Earth - the heavens are compared to Earth here.
Matthew 28:9 - "From pros and a probable derivative of kuon; to fawn or crouch to, i.e. prostrate oneself in homage." - https://biblehub.com/parallel/matthew/28-9.htm
Matthew 17 (other translations) - "And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted" (Darby Bible Translation); "There they saw Him and prostrated themselves before Him. Yet some doubted." (Weymouth New Testament).
Love to you and all picketers.Reply by messenger on 2019-09-16 21:51:41
Hello Frankie.
The scriptures I previously shared all used the same Greek word for worship, as does the following scripture:
“And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." Hebrews 1:6
There is no indication in any of these scriptures that word should be translated any other way than worship, as scholars have translated it in these places. In that final scripture which I previously shared, Revelation 22:9, that word,(Greek word # 4352[e]-proskynēsatōsan in Bible Hub’s interlinear), “worship,” is applied to John expressing that act of worship to an angel. The angel then instructs John not to do that, and tells him to worship God. The exact same word, denoting the exact same act, was performed before Jesus by his disciples in those first scriptures I shared, to which Christ replied, he has all authority in heaven and on Earth; and there Christ did not instruct them not to worship him, but accepted it, unlike the angel before John who rejected it.
When Christ was asked by Satan to bow down to him, in a similar manner, that same word was used by Satan, and then again in the reply Christ used in his response back to Satan-see below:
“Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”10Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’” 11Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.”-See Matthew 4:8-11
thus making it exceedingly clear what that act represented in these New Testament scriptures cited above. The Greek word in all these scriptures means worship, again as language scholars have rendered it. And Christ said. “‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.” Christ's statement shows worship is properly reserved for God alone, according to that scripture.
There are no scriptures that prove Christ is a weaker being than his Father, or that he has less power. “Greater than,” can mean greater in a thousand ways, or more. It does not necessarily mean in strength. But Christ’s relationship to his Father is irrelevant to his relationship with you anyway. If the Bible says he is God, then he is God, no matter how much strength he has compared to the Father, and no matter whether he was created or not. His position over you is not dependent on his relationship to the Father.
Christ is titled God in scripture. There are many biblical indications showing Christians are to accept him as such. That title he holds, God, is just one. His receiving worship from angels, men, and women is just one more reason. There are dozens of other scriptural reasons that show biblically Christ is God to Christians, and must be accepted as such.
Your representation of "believe in Christ" to receive life is incorrect. In the scriptures that say "Believe in him," the phrase believe means to believe and accept who Christ is relative to the person that believes. Is he a God, to him, just a man to him, or something else? "Believe," means to believe who we are told he is in scripture. And Christ's title God is not in the Bible as a dispensable position over Christians. It rather is an indispensible position Christ holds over Christians. Only Christians believe in him in the way people must believe to live. Any other belief results in death. Scriptures are clear on this; so hearts do not have to be read by Christians, as those scriptures are not speaking of a person's intentions, but rather who he/she holds Christ to be, as Lord and God over them.
While the tetragrammaton is thought by many to represent only the Father, which it might, I don’t feel the scriptures can prove that. I live in one United States of America. But while this country has just one federal government, that government consists of many people. Saying “one Jehovah” or “one God,” does not necessarily mean the tetragrammaton represents just one person. That’s an assumption. There are reasons to believe it might not. One of those reasons is tied up in the facts discussed here. Christ did accept worship, he is presently accepting worship, and biblically he is still going to receive worship in the future. Since the one he called Father does so also, that name could represent either of them individually, or together collectively serving as a unit that is the creator and God, with that name, and many other biblical names, describing the unit. Scriptures claim there is one God, and only God is to be worshipped, but they both are titled God, and they both are worshipped.
“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,” Philippians 2:10
Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2019-09-16 18:14:09
Funny stuff at the meeting yesterday
A situation where a ministerial servant who is likewise a pioneer was stopped from praying to conclude the meeting for field service after the meetings simply because HIS PUBLISHERS RECORD CARD has not been RECEIVED back to the congregation from where the brother had been serving before he RETURNED back.
The said brother was and still the FOREMOST PIONEER in the congregation and equally got appointed as a ministerial servant in the congregation before he travelled. When he came back he has continued same way he was before he travelled.
I was looking at the whole scenario based on the fact that a devoted member of the organization spirituality were to be JUDGED based on a PUBLISHERS RECORD card that contains INFORMATION that can be. falsified, a card that can lost in transit or thrown into a trash can. Yet this is where is SPIRITUAL STANDING will be checked.
I was wondering will he be EQUALLY allowed to pray when conducting Bible studies out there in the field or he will be barred from doing so.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2019-09-18 03:57:51
Reminds me of when an elder steps down (as I did) and the announcement is simply "So and so is no longer serving as an elder" or words to that effect. No thanks for the many years he put in. Nothing. The congregation may well assume that he has done something wrong (which I had not). Even a football manager gets better treatment when he gets the sack.
Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2019-09-16 18:28:42
Paragraphs 7 has Isaiah 28:16 cited which has to do with resting our faith in that TESTED STONE(JESUS Christ). Jesus Christ in turn tells us that Luke 12: 11 But when they bring you before the synagogues, the rulers, and the authorities, do not worry about how you should make your defense or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that moment what you must say.”
Yet the whole watchtower was in a way telling all its readers what to say and what to do rather than allow the HOLY SPIRIT do its work. is it not because CIRCUMSTANCES relating to all of this cannot be PLANNED as same for EVERYONE that Jeusus assured his disciples of such help from the HOLY SPIRIT in such situation.
Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-09-17 01:50:45
safeguardyourheart, I enjoyed your comment about the holy spirit and I will use it in the future.
At the end of the meeting an elder that met with me a while ago approached me and asked what I thought of the WT as GB is preparing us for the future.
Thanks to Tadua's review, I said the writers of the article don’t know their right from their left, so I showed him the following two paragraphs:
10. If the branch office cannot contact the elders, then the elders will help you and all in the congregation to continue your worship of Jehovah. They will give direction in harmony with the guidance found in the Bible and in our Christian publications. —Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 5:29; Heb. 10:24, 25.
18 Do not make unnecessary rules. If elders make unnecessary rules, they will create a burden for others. Brother Juraj Kaminský recalled what took place during the ban in former Czechoslovakia: “After the responsible brothers and many elders were arrested, some of those taking the lead in congregations and circuits began prescribing rules of conduct for the publishers, making lists of dos and don’ts.”
Jehovah has not given us authority to make personal decisions for others.
Someone who makes needless rules is not protecting his brother’s safety—he is trying to become the master of his brother’s faith.
2 Cor. 1:24. 24 Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.
I said the elders in (paragraphs 18) would have quoted the same scriptures as the elders in par. 10.
I asked, then who is the MASTER of your faith? He didn't like what I said.
I read to him Psalms 146: 3 - 5
3. Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out; he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish. 5 Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob as his helper, whose hope is in Jehovah his God.
I asked, from what we have been taught through the publications and the plat form, who are the princes?
Practice listening to Jehovah and his son through the bible reading, that’s it and be the master of your own faith.
He said, “you disappoint me every time I speak to you. You are not an encouraging person” and left.
Every gem that I read on this website; I get to make someone in the congregation think.
Thanks to all of you.
Comment by Gogetter on 2019-09-17 06:58:14
Greetings Everyone
The little discussion between Frankie and Messenger on worship of Jesus and “is Jesus God” along with the age old Trinity believed by millions is one that never seems to get settled and is probably one of the most divisive topics for Bible students.
I might add it is one of the topics that Bible skeptics point to as proof that the book is man made! If Jehovah and Jesus can’t make this crystal clear then what’s the point?
I have spent most of my life researching this topic and it is basically a dead end IMHO!
So for my sanity I no longer waste my time on the subject or even attempt to prove or disprove it when the topic comes up from someone I’m discussing the Bible with.
It is just easier for me to stick with the basics of Jehovah is the father and Jesus is the son of Jehovah and really just focus on John 14:6-7 as this just seems reasonable to me,
And if I’m wrong..... well it wouldn’t be the first time and the blood of the lamb will cover that.
Peace be with you Brothers.Reply by messenger on 2019-09-17 10:52:20
But the decisions people make about Christ, precisely who he is to them, meaning their acceptance of his relative position to theirs, is what scriptures claim separates the living from the dead, isn't it?
That point, as Christ stated, is meant to be divisive, because it is that point that creates the division between the living and the dead. Eventually all will be on the same side of this issue. But that time has not arrived yet. Until that happens Christ's slaves point out his words, and those of his apostles, regardless of how those words are accepted. That's our job as substitutes for him.
Reply by Tadua on 2019-09-17 13:35:11
Hi Gogetter,
Could not agree with you more.
This subject can be debated till the cows come home, as they say, or till Armageddon.
One day we will find out. In the meantime, the promise of the resurrection is clear, and how we need to behave if we want to be inline to receive the gift of everlasting life. “Seek peace and pursue it” (1 Peter 3:11)Reply by messenger on 2019-09-17 14:32:26
Tadua, are you implying that a servant of Christ should compromise, when teaching what Christ's position should be before others, for the sake of a real peace, or a professed peace with others?
If Christ did that he might still be here today. If JWs did that none would be disfellowshipped for apostasy.
I'm okay in my understanding you're okay in your understanding, while teaching scriptures, has never been practiced by God's servants.
See John 8:24Reply by Tadua on 2019-09-17 16:09:25
Hi Messenger
Compromise is when you accept lower standards than is desirable.
There is no suggestion of that in my answer.
Jehovah and Jesus have always made the important things absolutely clear. Given the language of the Bible is not clear beyond reasonable doubt on this matter, we cannot be dogmatic on this. Understanding the exact nature of Jesus and his relationship to Jehovah has troubled Christians since the early second Century. Dogmatism is why we have so many Christian Religions claiming to be the only true religion. We were dogmatic as Witnesses, I no longer tread that path of dogmatism.
As to John 8:24. Jesus was the promised Messiah, but his audience could not accept that because he was not what they wanted him to be.
Isaiah 55:8-9 reminds us that God’s thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
I have my own personal understanding which changes as I find out more, but would I dare to dogmatically tell others something which is very difficult to discern. No. I trust you are the same. In the first century the Jewish Christians still practiced parts of Judaism even though there was no need. The Gentiles were not required to follow the Law covenant. They all had to train their own conscience and not impose on others.Reply by messenger on 2019-09-18 03:15:28
Hello Tadua,
[ "Given the language of the Bible is not clear beyond reasonable doubt on this matter, we cannot be dogmatic on this. Understanding the exact nature of Jesus and his relationship to Jehovah has troubled Christians since the early second Century"]
Frankie inserted into the discussion ideas about the Father's relationship to the Son. I didn't. I only wrote their relationship to each other is irrelevant to Christ's biblical position over angels and men. It is rather a smokescreen, a red herring to that issue. In the way it is inserted into the argument it contributes nothing to the only point I was making. Referring to the biblical relationship between those two, and saying that governs Christ's biblical relationship to angels and men, is an illogical idea Watchtower used to misdirect Christians. WT probably believes the idea, but the ideas have no correlation to each other. The only other reference that I made about the relationship between those two names was that I don't believe YHWH can necessarily be proven to only represented the Father in every biblical incidence. But that was not the crux of any argument I raised. It also is irrelevant to what scriptures directly say about Christ. And I am not aware if the point could be proven, so I would never use it as an argument. It's just a thought.
The biblical position of Christ over angels and men, and the point that Christ is now scripturally worshipped is very clear in scripture. The words are plain and clear. From a purely semantic view the words are easily understood-God and worship. For the idea to be questionable God has to be allowing mankind to change his words from what they were to what we now read in these scriptures. Yes, the word worship applied to Christ in every Bible, and the word God applied to Christ in every Bible, would have had to have originally been written with different words. It doesn't make any sense God would allow that, because this issue is attached to salvation through Christ-it is knowing what position Christ holds over Christians. God would have to have given mankind directions for salvation, and then let one of the main points for salvation get misdirected by mistranslated words.
Also, all the people I know that are claiming God doesn't mean God when that word is applied to Christ in every Bible there is, but that it means something else; and worship doesn't mean worship, in every Bible that word is applied to Christ, are not scholarly translators, as far as I know. All the Bible teachers I know about who make that claim also only arose since the 1950's. WT didn't even believe it before the 1950's. Before that JWs also worshipped Christ, just as every other Christian I have heard of, except current JWs and ex-JWs.
As for someone else (not you) referencing the trinity, or the trinity minus one, I don't think in those terms. That word is not used in the scriptures. Father, Son, Holy Spirit and YHWH are in scripture. I only go by what I've read in scripture, and what I've experienced from God.
Christ clearly answers to the Father. Other than that, any other way the Father is greater than him, I don't know about, because the Bible doesn't show how the Father is greater than Christ in any other way. I am not sure if Christ was created or not, because of varying interpretations, all carrying some logical weight.
My thought about Holy Spirit differs from yours. I believe it is part of the Father and part of the Son, not some force they created outside of them that they use. I also believe God contacts people today, because in 2009 in several incidents, and once about five years prior to that, I was contacted by God, both while asleep and once while I was awake. In every incident I was shown part of the future. First, I was shown a future that occured about 5 years after the first incident. By now that already happened. It was in detail that was too precise to logically have been coincidence. And then about 4 times in 2009 I was shown part of a future that is still distant from our time. It will happen later, after this world is gone, when Christ's kingdom rules over everyone.
Except that God still contacts people, and shows them part of the future, I don't know if the (other) gifts of the spirit are present today in Christ's church. Like you, before this I didn't believe God still contacted people. I didn't know that until it happened to me. Since I only saw the future in those incidents, and experienced God's presence through a visible representation while awake in the last incident, I cannot speak to whether the (other) gifts of the Spirit are active. I was taught by WT those gifts are no longer active. But WT also taught me God no longer contacts people. And I know they are wrong about that. Plus, as I shared before, the scriptures in 1 Corinthians WT uses to make its argument do not state what WT claims they do about the gifts of the Spirit, and those scriptures say nothing at all about God contacting people, as WT asserts they do.
Comment by Frankie on 2019-09-17 17:17:02
Hello Messenger.
Thank you for your thoughts and time to answer me. It is obvious that my vision with respect to issue "is Jesus God” is rather different from yours. So I want to response for the last time, because I agree with Gogetter and Tadua that this discussion could continue until Armageddon :o). I believe that only then will we fully understand everything (1 Cor 13:12).
Every one of us has his/her own knowledge as our heavenly Father gives him, according to his/her state of mind and heart. I also think, this topic is very doctrinal a may cause division. I always remember Paul's words: "But knowledge puffs up while love builds up." (1 Cor 8:1). Yes, the best medicine against division is LOVE.
So the following is my humble opinion only, depending on what is given to me from above. In every item is one verse for many:
------------------------------------------------
1. As Jesus said, only our heavenly Father (YHWH) should be worshipped (Matt 4:10, the word "only”).
2. Tetragrammaton represents only the Father: "Say this to the people of Israel: 'The LORD [YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' THIS IS MY NAME FOREVER, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. (Exodus 3:15).
3. Jehovah is greater than Jesus: " ... therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." (Heb 1:9) Jehovah is the God of Jesus. If they were on the same level, it would be a Trinity reduced to 2 persons. Jesus always referred to himself as the Son of God. But as the firstborn Son, He has the same divine substance as His Father, similarly as I have the same human substance as my beloved (late) human father.
4. Faith in Jesus Christ means everlasting life: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” So I believe that Jesus is for me: Son of God, redeemer, saviour, King, door, good shepherd, truth, way, life, true vine, light of the world, resurrection, the bright and morning star, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world ...... and brother (John 20:17) and He has my humble obeisance. And I love Him.
5. Philippians 2:10 - Bowing to someone doesn't necessarily mean worship; the nobleman bows before his king, but he does not worship him.
------------------------------------------------
I really love the last sentence from Gogetter: "And if I'm [we are] wrong….. well it wouldn't be the first time and the blood of the lamb will cover that.” I think, this expression of faith should be carved into the stone :o).
Love to you Messenger and love to all. FrankieReply by Tadua on 2019-09-17 18:15:36
Hi Frankie
Amen to your comment
Reply by messenger on 2019-09-17 21:05:36
I appreciate your courtesy Frankie. I suggest though that you consider why God would call Jesus God in scripture, or used a word that is translated worship by all Greek scholars, in the scriptures we have considered, if Jesus is in fact not to be worshiped by Christians and angels, nor is he God over them.
Does God mean God, and worship mean worship? Most Christians understand they do.
Like I said before, there are dozens of other biblical indications that back that point. For instance, in the confrontation Christ had with Satan that I shared below in that previous post, Christ not only said to worship God, Christ also included "and serve him (God) only. " All Christians who continue to live MUST serve both Father and Son equally, in the exact same way. And it is that idea that is at the heart of why eventually everyone will recognize Christ as their God, and worship Christ in the way the Bible claims some already do. Because not to do so is rebellion. All will serve Christ just as they would the Father, just as if the Father was managing them, or ruling over them. If not they will die. The amount of time Christ gives for individuals individually to learn and do this, is the only part that is unknown.
Other truths in the Bible, I agree, could be misunderstood by members of Christ's church, just as the scriptures claim they are.
As for misunderstanding this point though. I see salvation coming to many who are not considered part of that church by Christ; so the necessity for them to learn this right now might or might not be life threatening. But the determination to decide that is not mine. It is Christ's determination. Therefore, it very well might be life threatening, and scriptures indicate it definitely is for some.
Remember the Son's relationship to the Father has no more to do with Christ's relationship to you than a wife's subordination to her husband has to do with her children's subordination to her. The children do not say you are not my parent because you answer to Dad. WT taught us Christ's subordination to the Father means he is not God for that reason, and that's what you like WT base most of your arguments on, but the idea is illogical. Even if the Father created the son, and the Son was a bug, if God says he is over you as God and worshiped as such, then he is over you as God. And that is exactly what God said in multiple scriptures about Christ that JWs dance around, while the meaning of those scriptures alludes them. "He shall be called Mighty God." Either apostates call him God, or his church calls him God. The only alternative to that is they both do, and possibly other people also. But the point is God does. And God means God. It is a title denoting a position, among other things such as creator. In some of the scriptures you quoted you stated Christ was speaking only of the Father, but those scriptures don't say that. That's an assumption you and others make. One such scripture is Matthew 4:10. There Christ said you are to worship the Lord, your god, and serve only him. So I ask, do you serve Christ like you do the Father? Certainly Christ directed you to serve only him. So who was he speaking about, and who was he excluding, from (your) rightful biblical service?
You have a nice evening Frankie. We'll talk later.
Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-09-17 21:58:14
Top of the world to you Frankie
I loved what you have concluded about Jesus and Jehovah, so well written. I have just printed it and laminated and put on the fridge.
The last sentence: And if I’m wrong….. well it wouldn’t be the first time and the blood of the lamb will cover that. I concur with Tadua " Amen"
Thanks again
Comment by Psalmbee on 2019-09-17 19:59:33
Are Jesus's words at John 8:24 only good for his audience over 2000 years ago? What people want to do when they are fresh out of the ORG is team up with Jesus and Jehovah, hopefully that will pass with time, when you come to realize that Jesus stands alone, he doesn't need Daddy's help no more. Acts 4:12) What part of all authority don't you understand?
Psalmbee
Comment by jamesbrown on 2019-09-17 21:49:12
Hi Psalmbee
Can you please elaborate on "he doesn't need daddy any more", are you referring to Jesus that he has no need of his father any more?
ThanksReply by Psalmbee on 2019-09-17 22:31:54
Hello James,
I'm gonna put this in terms that all can understand.
Daddy may have walked Jesus around and guided him in the wilderness. (Mt 4:1)
But Jesus, with a cross on his shoulder walked himself to Calvary.
Psalmbee (Gal 6:17)Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-09-17 23:39:35
Hi Psalmbee
Since "Jesus, with a cross on his shoulder walked himself to Calvary", then he doesn't need his father any more. That is what you are saying.
A football team who wins the grand finale, does that mean they don’t need the trainer anymore? After all they are the ones who will be remembered and not the trainer. And they are the ones who did the hard work and not the trainer.
So, since Jesus, with a cross on his shoulder walked himself to Calvary, then why need a father to guide him? Same as a football team who won ALL the competitions, why need a trainer.
Is that a fair example of what you are saying?
ThanksReply by Psalmbee on 2019-09-18 03:40:46
NO! It's not and you sound just like your elders downplaying the Lord Jesus Christ who raised himself from the dead.
Psalmbee
Reply by messenger on 2019-09-18 05:20:34
I don't know if this is exactly what Psalmbee means jamesbrown, but he might be referring to the fact that Jesus will be the sole judge over mankind, and sole ruler over them, alone making decisions about people and angels, until he brings the Father back into the picture sharing that rulership with him, which will be after his millennial reign. Psalmbee might mean Christ won't be going to Jehovah for directions when he makes those decisions.
Of course scriptures speak of lesser judges taken from the earth, but all of them must judge as Christ does, under his direction. "21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes. 22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father" from John chapter 5
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.Reply by jamesbrown on 2019-09-19 02:47:25
Thanks messenger
You remind of Jesus teaching who took his disciples aside and explained to them what he meant, and didn't leave them in the dark or worse still allow someone else explain what he meant.
Take care
Comment by Gogetter on 2019-09-18 07:04:10
Greetings Friends
Reading the comments here since I posted, Has confirmed my earlier statement.
“The little discussion between Frankie and Messenger on worship of Jesus and “is Jesus God” along with the age old Trinity believed by millions is one that never seems to get settled and is probably one of the most divisive topics for Bible students.”
Agape
Comment by Tadua on 2019-09-18 07:53:48
Hi all
I would like to remind everyone and draw their attention to the fact that we do have commenting guidelines.
For any unfamiliar with them, feel free to read this article https://beroeans.net/2017/04/02/commenting-guidelines/
And the appropriate heading under FAQ’s.
On this basis I would ask that all please desist in this discussion about Christ’s nature in the comments in these reviews.
By all means continue the discussion in our affiliates site, Discuss the Truth, if you do wish.
Here is not the appropriate place, and the tone of some comments to this review reminds me very much of the attitude of the Watchtower Organization, I.e. believe this or you will die at Armageddon.
This site should be a place of peace and refreshing, upbuilding comments and assisting one another.
None should seek to impose their viewpoint on others.
Rather, as frequently mentioned the articles on this site encourage readers to do their own research to confirm or disagree personally with any of the material presented.
There is where the decision should be left, personally, and not forcefully endeavouring to get others to agree with us.
I thank all in advance for their brotherly and sisterly co-operation.
Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2019-09-18 11:15:40
Thanks @ James Brown, not only are the reviews helpful, the comments on this platform afterwards are not to be discarded, salient point and reasoning skills abound aplenty in there. As captured by some of your post here.
Comment by messenger on 2019-09-18 11:19:09
Just Asking,
Civility is always in order. But many of your suggested rules, regulations, like only stay on the article topic, don't say I, don't use personal experiences, etc. really are very useless in establishing biblical truth, and those are not teaching methods used by biblical characters. They contribute to the formation of cults.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-09-18 15:46:50
The commenting guidelines are in place for the reasons stated.
This is not a forum for open discussions on any topic one wishes to discuss. There is a forum for that: www.discussthetruth.com. Please use that forum if you want to discuss Bible issues which are off topic.
Look at it this way. You've been invited into a restaurant that serves a certain type of cuisine. Indian, say. You can eat it, or not. You can criticise it if you feel it is subpar, or you can offer suggestions on how to improve the food. But you can't come into a restaurant and expect the chef to allow you to take over his kitchen and cook whatever food you want. Also, if you want to critique the cuisine of another restaurant, go there and make your critiques. If the restaurant has rules, such as "No bare feet", you either obey the rules or go to another restaurant.
Thank you for understanding.
Comment by Gogetter on 2019-09-18 20:02:58
Amen! just asking that’s why I’m a daily reader here! Thanks for outlining those points.
Comment by LaRhonda T. on 2019-09-22 02:54:42
Just a quick note to say a heartfelt "Thank you" Tadua, for another well-written and highly-informative article. One point I can really appreciate is how local elders make decisions for the friends, In the last K.H. I attended, an elder even made the remark, "No need to worry friends, we'll do your thinking for you!" Just amazing how they want to micro-manage every aspect of daily life!
Comment by Alithia on 2019-09-22 06:55:43
I am grateful that the hosts of this site have addressed the issue of conversations around subjects which are not pertinent to the particular post main subject matter.
I think "just asking" has made some very good points that should serve as a guideline as to the manner in which we compile our posts too.
This is not without precedent, as the apostle Paul laid out some very good guidelines as to how meetings should be conducted.
In the letter to the Corinthians he said that everything should take place peacefully and with good order.
That ultimately the benefit of all should be in view, and not just a few.
Particularly I want to draw attention to the point he made about certain ones talking in tongues and people not being able to understand them if there was no one there to translate.
The point being that newcomers or people just coming for the first time would see the goings-on and considered them being plain mad.
In a similar manner if we are discussing random things that we may have prepared for, but others coming to the particular post thinking that another particular subject is going to be discussed only to find other subjects being discussed that are wide of the point they expected.
Well this is not really going to be up building to them as they are not particularly prepared either to contribute which is a vital part of encouraging one another, or of even to be prepared to properly assimilate the information.
I love the restaurant analogy! Good point. You do not go to McDonald's to order a pizza, or to an Indian restaurant to order a hamburger! You order what's on the menu. You expect a burger when you go to McDonald's.
I think it is in good order that when we open up a new subject our comments should be centred around that. There is sure to be some digression, this is acceptable. What may be unacceptable is simply to use a particular platform to air ones views which do not correspond in any way shape or form to the subject at hand.
Love to all from Alithia.Reply by Psalmbee on 2019-09-22 09:25:51
Where have I heard all this before? Oh yeah, the KH, Just send us a "pamplet" so we can underline the answers. I can go to Mcdonald's and get a coffee almost just like Starbucks, I can go to Burger King and get a taco, you can also get chicken sandwiches just like at Chick fil'a.
That's fine though, if the pampered christians need more pampering then that's what they need right?
Psalmbee