“The King of the North” in the Time of the End

– posted by Tadua

“In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him [the king of the north] in a pushing.” Daniel 11:40.

 [From ws 05/20 p.2 July 6 – July 12, 2020]


This Watchtower study article concentrates on Daniel 11:25-39.

It claims to be able to identify the king of the north and the king of the south from 1870 to 1991.

We take no issue with the understanding in paragraph 4 which says, “The titles “king of the north” and “king of the south” were initially given to political powers located north and south of the literal land of Israel. Why do we say that? Notice what the angel who delivered the message to Daniel said: “I have come to make you understand what will befall your people in the final part of the days.” (Dan. 10:14) Until Pentecost 33 C.E., the literal nation of Israel was God’s people.”

Neither do we take issue with the following portion in the same paragraph: “the identity of the king of the north and the king of the south changed over time. Even so, several factors remained constant. First, the kings interacted with God’s people [Israel] in a significant way. …. Third, the two kings engaged in a power struggle with each other.”

The claimed 2nd factor is more difficult to substantiate. These kings showed they loved power rather than people, but as they did not know Jehovah it is unprovable to say “they showed by their treatment of God’s people that they hated the true God, Jehovah.” You cannot truly hate what you do not know.

The Watchtower is correct therefore in saying that Daniel 10:14 is referring to the nation of Israel or the Jewish nation, and what will happen in its final days, the Jewish system’s time of the end, but this scripture is not talking about the end of days, the last day, judgment day.

What we do take issue with is the statement in paragraph 1 which claims: “What does the near future hold for Jehovah’s people?” We do not have to guess. Bible prophecy gives us a window through which we can see major events that will affect all of us”.

Yet, guessing is exactly what they are doing. Firstly, they have no proof they are Jehovah’s people, only an unsubstantiated claim. Furthermore, they are ignoring the warning Jesus gave regarding such people as those who claim to understand Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and hence can allegedly understand the future prophecies if these prophecies are indeed still awaiting fulfillment.

What did Jesus say? Matthew 24:24 records Jesus' words “For false anointed ones [Christs] and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you. Therefore, if people say to you: Look! He is in the inner chambers, [or, he is already present invisibly], do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over into western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”

Yes, lighting can light up the whole sky even on the darkest night and be so bright that it can wake us up through blackout curtains and closed eyes. “Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, [because they can see and know who has come], and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Despite this warning from Jesus, the article then takes a leap by assuming that the identity of God’s people as regards to this prophecy, changed at some point in the past, just because of the rejection of the Jewish nation as a whole in the late first century. Indeed, it is easy to come to such conclusions if we do not look at the scriptures in context and look at the translation of the wording carefully.

Ignoring the context (the rest of the prophecy of the king of the north and the king of the south), and wanting a future fulfillment with which to try and guess when Armageddon will come, means that the Organization, like some other religions, then apply eisegesis to their understanding. That means, they are convinced that this prophecy of Daniel relates to the world situation today and only, therefore, try to understand the prophecy in that context.

The Organization, therefore, stretches credulity, by trying to identify the King of the North and the King of the South in the 19th,20th and 21st Centuries. The reasoning given is that “from 1870 onward, God’s people began to get organized as a group”. In summation, on the basis that Jehovah’s Witnesses are God’s organized group of people today on earth, (which is an unproven claim), they then identify Britain as king of the South along with the United States. This can be viewed effectively as disguised nationalism, especially as the Organization started in the USA and soon after in Britain.

Let us all, instead of jumping to conclusions, take a deeper look at the context of Daniel 11:25-39, as the Bible usually helps us understand by the context, rather than picking out a scripture on its own.

Before reading this comparison, please review the following article, which is a referenced investigation into the prophecy in Daniel 11 and Daniel 12, commonly referred to as the king of the south and king of the north prophecy. You may or may not agree with all its conclusions, but it provides an examination of the context, the whole prophecy and the environment in which it was given, and numerous historical references. Indeed the author did not have the understanding that is arrived at in the article until he did the research for himself and looked at the whole prophecy in context and at history, - in particular the accounts of the period by Josephus.


Paragraph 5 inadvertently lends weight to the understanding given in the linked article, that the prophecy only applied to the nation of Israel. In summary, the Watchtower article says that because Christianity became apostate in the 2nd century “until the late 19th century, there was no organized group of God’s servants on earth.” Therefore, as a result, the prophecy of the king of the south and the king of the north could not apply to rulers and kingdoms during that time, because there was no organized group of God’s people for them to attack!!!

Where in the prophecy, indeed, where in the Bible does it say that a lack of an Organization meant a pause in the fulfillment of the prophecy? Please search the NWT 1983 Reference Edition of the Bible for the words ‘Organize’, ‘Organized’, and ‘Organization’. You will only be able to bring up just two references, neither of which is anything to do with the nation of Israel or its replacement.

In fact, for the whole of the period of time, starting from the return from the Babylonian exile to the destruction of the nation in the late first century, the only time the nation of Israel had any organization whatsoever was under the rule of the Maccabees (Hasmonean Dynasty) from around 140 BC to 40 BC, only 100 years out of the 520+ years covered by Daniel 11 and Daniel 12, and that period is not discussed in the prophecy, just how it came about and how it ended.

The biggest problem with the Watchtower Article is that the whole understanding given is based on the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses being God’s chosen people. If they are not God’s chosen people, then the whole interpretation falls. A very shaky foundation on which to understand scripture.

So just to reiterate, the article says we can identify the king of the north and the king of the south in the last 140 odd years, by how they affected Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Let us examine then how the kings of the north and the kings of the south, the Organization proposes have affected Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Paragraphs 7 and 8 claims to identify the king of the south as the United States and Britain. Do you notice the complete absence of any evidence as to how they have allegedly affected either natural Israel, or Jehovah’s Witnesses? The sole basis for identification seems to be on the basis that Britain defeated France, Spain and the Netherlands, an interpretation of Daniel 7, not Daniel 11, and that the Anglo-American world power amassed “an exceedingly large and mighty army” Daniel 11:25. That’s it.

Paragraphs 9-11 claims to identify the king of the north as the German Empire on the basis that it is because it challenged the Anglo-American world power and was the second most powerful nation at that time.

Paragraph 12 states that the claimed king of the north is such because the British and American governments put in to prison the Bible Students who refused to fight. There were other groups and individuals who also refused to fight, but these are ignored.

Paragraph 13 mentions the persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses by Hitler. “The opposers killed hundreds of Jehovah’s people and sent thousands more to concentration camps. Those events were foretold by Daniel”.  If we are looking for a large-scale attack on God’s people by Hitler, why ignore the millions of Jews who were murdered, by Hitler’s death squads and extermination camps? The study article also claims, “The king of the north was able to “profane the sanctuary” and “remove the constant feature” by severely restricting the freedom of God’s servants to praise Jehovah’s name publicly. (Dan. 11:30b, 31a) “.

So far, the identification is based on 3 dubious claims:

  1. The Organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses today is God’s people and where chosen as such in the 1870’s.

  2. A few members were put in prison for refusing military service in the First World War, (greatly outnumbered by other conscientious objectors)

  3. The persecution of the Organization by Hitler (whose persecution may have been in part, provoked by Judge Rutherford’s stinging letter to Hitler, and whose numbers pale into insignificance alongside the extermination of the Jews)

Paragraph 14 then changes the identification of the king of the north to the USSR

Dubious claim no. 4:

The king of the north changes to the USSR, because they banned the preaching work and sent Witnesses into exile. This is despite the fact that the Witnesses were not singled out for special treatment. The communist regime treated any group that resisted its ideology in the same way.

Dubious claim no. 5:

We then have the claim (paragraphs 17,18) that “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” is the United Nations, of which the Watchtower Organization became a non-governmental organization member. The United Nations is identified as “the disgusting thing”, not because it “causes desolation”, but because it claims it can bring world peace. Can you see the logic and full, fulfillment even of the partial phrase taken out of context of “the disgusting thing that causes desolation”?  I certainly cannot.

As for the application, it is a pure fabrication when it says, “And the prophecy says that the disgusting thing “causes desolation” because the United Nations will play a key role in the destruction of all false religion”. Where does the prophecy of Daniel 11 talk about the destruction of all false religions? Nowhere!!! This appears to be something imported from the Organization’s interpretation of the book of Revelation.

So, has the United Nations had any effect on the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Other than confirming that the Organization is a hypocrite and was a member of the “disgusting thing”, nothing. [i]

So how is this identification correct when it has had no effect on those claiming to be God’s people. The League of Nations and the United Nations have had far more effect on the Nation of Israel in the 20th century than on Jehovah’s Witnesses.

(NOTE: We are not suggesting that the prophecy is being fulfilled today but on the natural nation of Israel instead of the Organization)

The following week’s Watchtower Study will attempt to understand who the king of the north is today (due to the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991)!!!



For those interested in confirming the Organization’s exact interpretation of the Daniel 11 prophecy, the following resources are of great use:

The main sources of the Organizations teaching on Daniel 11 are found in “Your Will be done On Earth”, Chapter 10[ii], and “Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy” (dp), Chapter 11 (available in WT Library on mobile and pc).

In the "Daniel’s Prophecy" book in Chapter 13, from paragraph 36-38 you can notice a complete absence of trying to match the events they highlight, with the prophecy in Daniel. Why?

The Organization gives no reason as to why Daniel’s prophecy (in chapter 11), all about the Jewish nation suddenly jumps some 2,000 years into the future.



[i] Please see https://beroeans.net/2018/06/01/identifying-true-worship-part-10-christian-neutrality/ for an examination of the Watchtower Organization’s involvement with the UN.

[ii] The “Your Will be done on Earth” book Chapter 10 is contained in WT 12/15 1959 p756 para 64-68, which is available in the PC WT Library.


Archived Comments

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  • Comment by Chet on 2020-07-05 14:06:07

    If one imagines themselves to be the focus of God’s attention, it is very easy to mentally construct all sorts of elaborate interpretations of events to support the presumption of being at the center of God’s overall purposes.

    in dealing with persons whom are awakening and learning the truth about the Truth, one of the most difficult impediments is conveying that the Organization is not of any particular significance in God’s works. One person whom has told me that the Organization has ruined much of his life still hangs onto the notion that the JWs are the only people on earth whom are politically neutral and peaceful. Significantly, this person is convinced that their conclusion in this matter is proof of some sort of significance before God.

    This is, in my humble opinion, highly erroneous. The JW Organization defines neutrality to their convenience, changing positions like a chameleon to adapt themselves to the circumstances du jour. Most famously, or perhaps most notoriously, JF Rutherford tried to curry favor with Hitler, then reversed himself and became critical of Hitler. Had Rutherford truly kept himself separated from the political realm, and more to the point, had he kept his yap shut, it’s quite possible that a lot of German Witnesses would have been spared at least a degree of the persecution they experienced during WW II.

    The inconsistency of the Witness Organization with regard Mexico and the U.S. is another example, and this one gets personal. Witnesses in Mexico were permitted to pay a bribe and buy a card which showed them as having been trained as members of the National Guard in Mexico. Had a Witness in the U.S. claimed membership in the U.S. National Guard, that person would be considered as disassociated, even if they had done so in name only, by procuring false documents.

    I grew up knowing that I would go to prison when I became of draft age. Fortunately, that never came to pass, but the emotional burden of knowing that about the time your classmates would be starting out in life that you would be going to prison is no trivial matter, especially when one is of the ripe old age of 8, or so.

    Even worse, in my case; my father actually was sent to prison for refusing induction. He had plenty of time to reflect on matters and eventually concluded that he could accept non-military alternative service, which allowed him to, at least, provide for his family. He spent the rest of his life afraid that people would discover that he was an ex-convict, even though his crime had been a matter of conscience. He suffered emotional problems for decades afterward and the rest of the family was exposed to a father with significant symptoms of PTSD. My father spoke very little about his prison days and he may well have dealt with sexual assault or some other form of abuse, at the hands of other prisoners, some of whom may have been violent.

    Had the Watchtower Organization been loving towards its membership, they could have prevented this from happening to countless Witnesses and their loved ones, had they simply been reasonable. Conscientious Objection is hardly unique to JWs, but most religions have enough sense to realize that working in civilian service is not the same as going to war.

    Then there’s Malawi, when hapless Witnesses lost everything, and in some cases lost their lives, over the matter of refusing to buy a “party membership” card which was essentially meaningless, because there was only one party in Malawi. They may well have blood on their hands for that little stunt.

    Then there is the matter of the United Nations membership as a Non-Governmental Organization. The JW literature taught that the U.N. was the Beast of Revelation, and by their own words, the Organization essentially took on the Mark of the Beast. One aspect of this membership was the requirement to generate positive publicity for the U.N. This explains the “puff pieces” I remember seeing about the U.N. and one particular article lionizing Woodrow Wilson, architect of the League of Nations. Nathan Knorr must have been spinning in his grave. An article of that nature would have been considered heresy to a Witness from an earlier era.

    The level of hypocrisy involved in this move pretty much pegs the needle. There is speculation that their motive was to cash in on monies available for relief efforts. So much for remaining neutral in affairs of this world. I have to ask, at this point; do the Watchtower leadership serve the Almighty God, or some other god? Their seizure of locally built and locally funded Kingdom Halls and subsequent sale of these would tend to reinforce my conclusion that they should change their name to Almighty Dollar’s Witnesses.

    If I could speak directly to whomever is actually controlling events in the Organization, I would remind them of Luke 8:17 which states: “For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.” I believe that the visible organization which became Jehovah’s Witnesses (and it’s associated organizations) was born of sincere, if somewhat misguided, motivation. As time passed, and predictions failed, the narrative had to be tailored and the motive began to shift until it eventually became a matter of protecting the narrative. This is nothing unusual, many causes have suffered the same fate, but the Watchtower leadership claims to represent the One True God and even take His Divine Name upon their religious order. Deuteronomy 5:11 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.”

    • Reply by Beroeans Creed on 2020-07-07 12:25:14

      Greetings Chet

      Just a quick shout out on both of your excellent comments! I totally agree and have the identical thoughts and opinions you nicely pointed out, thank you.


    • Reply by Chet on 2020-07-07 20:35:26

      The Watchtower has always been as neutral as whatever served their immediate purposes. If you take the history of the movement, from Russell on down to today, they are, if nothing else, consistent. They expect the membership to absorb all of the blame and sashay around any responsibility that comes their way. They have, at the very least, contributed to the death of adherents, whom believed that they were doing the right thing, when, in fact, they were simply listening to human leaders, expressing opinions as fact.

      All around me, I see upheaval. A lot of things have changed in the last few months. I feel that I may be seeing the fulfillment of Luke 8:17, happening in real time. Misdeeds of all sorts seem to be coming out of the woodwork and people are questioning much of what has been taken for granted.

      In this context, it's no surprise that the Watchtower is coming under scrutiny. Like all man-made organizations, they have skeletons in their closet. Their own publications are some of the most damning sources of information. That is undoubtedly why JWs are being instructed to purge their old literature. It's too late, the Watchtower Library is in too many hands and the words they have published in the past will come back to haunt them. The leadership will probably not garner much sympathy. Sadly, the rank and file are the ones that will suffer the most. When one wakes up from such indoctrination, it's not unusual to experience a profound sense of confusion. That's what scares me; untold numbers of sincere persons confused by having their world turned upside down, as the organization which guided their every thought unravels. There's a strange poetic justice to it all, with regard to the leadership, but I feel great compassion for the rank and file.

  • Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2020-07-06 16:04:05

    This watchtower article in paragraph 1 states.... What does the near future hold for Jehovah’s people?” We do not have to GUESS.

    TADUA states the ISSUE and PROBLEM this study article has is "YET, GUESSING IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING".

    This beauty is what TADUA highlighted is SPOT ON. Why did I say SO?

    I decided to look at words in English language we can use to make "GUESS". I found this particular word.......(COULD). Did this world appear in this article? YES 3 times!. Where in particular? Paragraph 5 and 6. The writer of this Watchtower article USED the word(COULD) at the very point where the GUESSWORK was needed.

    1. God’s people COULD once again be identified

    2. When could God’s people again be identified

    3. It indicates that what we read about the king of the north and the king of the south COULD not apply to rulers or kingdoms that held power from sometime in the 2nd century to the second half of the 19th century.

  • Comment by Fani on 2020-07-07 03:15:52

    Mathieu 13 : 30 "Laissez les deux pousser ensemble jusqu’à la moisson. Et à l’époque de la moisson, je dirai aux moissonneurs : ‘Ramassez D'ABORD la mauvaise herbe et liez-​la en bottes pour la brûler, puis ramassez le blé et mettez-​le dans mon grenier"

    La sté dit que la séparation du blé et de la mauvaise herbe a eu lieu en 1914 et rassemblé en 1919 ( voir graphique (4) et (6).
    Or selon Jésus c'est D'ABORD, en PREMIER, la mauvaise herbe qui est liée et brûlée.

    Nous sommes tous témoins que la mauvaise herbe n'a pas été brûlée, donc le blé n'a pas pu être entreposé dans le grenier.

    • Reply by Chet on 2020-07-07 09:20:17

      That is a great point, Fani. If one were to take that prophecy in its most literal sense, the ingathering hasn’t started, yet.

      The following is entirely personal opinion:

      For some time, I have struggled with how our God and His Son will be able to judge people that have been so thoroughly deceived as many today are, by false doctrines and church traditions. My personal opinion is that the falseness of these teachings could be exposed by the will of God, leaving untold numbers of sincere people open and receptive to learning what is true.

      Contrary to the current teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I can see no evidence that God has always had an Organization on earth. There are examples of individuals being used, such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, various prophets to Israel and culminating in the Son of God, but none of these people established organizations. Jesus’ apostles were not an organization, with a central meeting place, etc. They were “organized” only by their devotion to Jesus and their willingness to accept him as Messiah.

      My own suspicion, is that once the falsehood and traditions of various churches, including the JWs, is laid bare, that sincere Christians will be able to see what is true and to interpret events correctly, without the need for a man-based, human, organization, which could be easily corrupted.

      As I write, there is unprecedented turmoil. We are locked down by a mysterious disease. Segments of the economy are shut down and there is unrest. Churches are not holding services in many places and the activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses are at a virtual standstill. In fact, it would be virtually impossible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to function in the current environment.

      I have no way to know if the current events are significant in God’s purposes, but these events do serve to show just how simple of a matter it is to disrupt everyday life. Even if all of this were to blow over, it would be quite a while before the effects of this would be able to be forgotten. God, the One True God, has the power to brush aside any human activity, quite easily. He can expose the lies and expose the liars. He can bring truth to the fore and he doesn’t need any group of men in order to do this. Look at the effects His Son left on the world.

  • Comment by marielle on 2020-07-07 04:34:31

    Russell ne se prenait pas pour « LE MESSAGER » qui trace le chemin.
    Il était parfaitement conscient, qu’il devait beaucoup aux réformateurs qui l’avaient précédé.
    Que disait-il ?
    « Nous trouvons que les historiens modernes les plus qualifiés parlent d'une grande Réformation qui commença au seizième siècle. C’EST PAR CETTE RÉFORMATION QUE LA PURIFICATION DU SANCTUAIRE COMMENÇA. Luther, l'esprit conducteur de la Réformation, ne releva pas simplement une erreur, il essaya, au contraire, d'en rejeter beaucoup d'autres. Le 31 octobre 1517, il afficha à la porte de l'église de Wittemberg 95 thèses qui, toutes, étaient opposées aux doctrines papales. Ces propositions ayant été déclarées comme hérésie par le Pape Léon X, Luther, dans sa réponse (1520), dénonça, en termes violents, les doctrines de la transsubstantiation, de l'immortalité humaine et la prétention du pape au titre d'« Empereur du monde, roi des cieux, et Dieu sur la terre...En considérant le sentier de l'Église, depuis Luther jusqu'à aujourd'hui, nous pouvons voir que la réforme ou purification a néanmoins progressé pas à pas ;
    l'Église anglicane
    Les Wesleys et leurs collaborateurs
    L'Unitarisme et l’Universalisme,
    bien que renfermant également des erreurs ont été aussi des tentatives de rejeter des erreurs corruptrices.
    Ceux qu'on appela des Baptistes s'efforcèrent aussi de purifier le sanctuaire en rejetant une autre erreur introduite par la Papauté relative au baptême ;
    Une tentative de réformation plus récente est connue sous le nom d'« Église Chrétienne » ou des « Disciples ». Cette secte fut organisée en 1827, par Alexandre Campbell.
    Bien que nous n'ayons cité que quelques-uns des réformateurs et des mouvements de réforme, NOUS NE REJETONS NI N’IGNORONS LES AUTRES CEPENDANT.
    LOIN DE LÀ !
    La plus importante à maints égards, de toutes ces réformes et la plus complète commença peu après celle, que nous venons de citer ; nous en avons parlé dans le chapitre précédent. Ce fut Mr. William Miller du Massachusetts, appartenant à la confession des Baptistes...UN CŒUR HONNÊTE ET SINCÈRE QUI AVAIT DISCERNÉ D’AUSSI BONNES NOUVELLE, NE POUVAIT AVOIR DE PLUS ARDENT DÉSIR QUE DE LES PROCLAMER ; C’EST CE QUE FIT MILLER ».

    Le GB sait-il vraiment ce que veut dire VRAIS ADORATEURS ?
    De vrais adorateurs qui enseignent les VÉRITÉS BIBLIQUES ?

    Il ne s’agit pas de se prononcer sur la sincérité et motivation, de Russell et ses collaborateurs.

    Comment Russell et ses collaborateurs peuvent-ils être le « messager » de Malachie 3 : 1 après avoir enseigné autant d’erreurs, entre autres, sur les prophéties de Daniel ?

    Aucune des dates avancées concernant la réalisation des prophéties de Daniel se sont avérées justes !

    Le pire, c’est qu’ils en parlent dans l’article suivant, comme d’une PROPHÉTIE ET DE SON ACCOMPLISSEMENT !

  • Comment by marielle on 2020-07-08 01:44:30

    La moisson étant comparée à la « période finale », J’aimerais savoir si le grec « sunteleia » peut emporter l’idée d’un achèvement ou une fin commune sur plus d’un siècle.
    Car le GB choisit toujours de mettre l’accent sur la « période » plutôt que sur la fin, comme point culminant de toutes choses.
    Ainsi, dans la comparaison du blé et de la mauvaise herbe, ils rallongent le jugement de séparation en faisant « commencer », (ce que le texte ne fait pas) le tri de la mauvaise herbe en 1914 et brûlée au four à Harmaguédon.
    Idem, pour le blé, « commencé » à être engrangé en 1919 puis mis de côté à la fin.

  • Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-07-08 10:07:04

    Hi Tadua, I was unsure whether to put this here or against your main article.
    According to an Adventist based internet item article by Edwin de Kock (The King of the South and the King of the North in Daniel 11-12), they identify Caesar Augustus as the "exactor" of Daniel 11:20 and Tiberius as the "one to be despised" in verse 21. There time of the end runs from 1798.
    As the Pay Attention to Daniel's prophecy makes the same identification of Augustus Caesar and Tiberius, one really has to ask - who gets their ideas from who, and is it just a mere coincidence that the present day fulfilment seem to tie in with the emergence of those particular groups?

    • Reply by Tadua on 2020-07-08 11:36:57

      Hi Leonardo
      Here is the better place as it is about WT interpretation. Thank you for this info, yes it is interesting that so much of the WT teachings are barely disguised Adventist teachings. There has clearly been no attempt to independently review the understanding. Indeed, before I did the research for the king of the North /South Daniel 11-12 article I still understood it was Augustus and Tiberius, because of the Org, and because I hadn’t checked it for myself yet.
      In fact a reasonable case can be Made that it is Augustus and Tiberius, then Nero and Vespasian fill the next parts and it was still all fulfilled by the end of the first century, but not everything Matches, certainly not as clearly and chronologically as I concluded in that article.

    • Reply by Chet on 2020-07-08 12:36:54

      What I find amazing in all of this is how people will gravitate to such interpretations and then try to keep the, afloat, even when the predictions based upon these fail. We all want an end to suffering and it would certainly be nice if it happened in our lifetime, but all such predictions bear one common trait, they always fail.

      We can’t say that we weren’t warned of this possibility. Matt 24: 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.  

      The last verse quoted makes it clear. If you’ve ever seen lightning light up the entire sky, then you know that it’s not something you can miss. People don’t debate whether or not there was a bolt of lightning, nor need they torture the meaning of various words in order to convince others that lighting has occurred. As a rule, lightning announces its occurrence more than adequately, requiring no one to point out what has happened.

      When I speak to JWs, or persons that are leaning towards leaving the JWs, frequently the topic of End Time chronology comes up, usually in the form of the JW trying to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, with regard to the various explanations which have been made in an attempt to place ourselves in an End Time scenario. I see this as grasping at straws, and it seems to be one of the most persistent beliefs that a person will cling to as they begin the process of awakening, and recognizing that their beliefs are not as reliable as they had once thought.

      This phenomenon, in my humble opinion, is a window into the psychology which binds people to the JWs, or other similar groups. My own terminology for this is that such groups offer an “integrated solution”. Simply stated an “integrated solution” is a catch all. When all else fails, toss it over to the integrated solution. A perfect example would be a Witness saying that Armageddon will be here before we have to deal with a certain problem. The risk here, is that a person will get into the habit of punting their problems into the integrated solution instead of facing these problems head-on.

      So the appeal of interpretations of scripture which support a timeline that places us in the ‘last of the last days’ has incredible emotional appeal. There is a psychological payoff to believing we are at the precipice of Armageddon; one can cast their worries into the that as the solution for any problem that comes along. Career, health issues, education, you name it. The results are tragic.

  • Comment by Bobcat on 2020-07-14 13:30:06

    Pars. 9 & 10 make an application of Dan 11:25 to Kaiser's Germany as the King of the North. What I found interesting is how Dan 11:25 is rendered in every other Bible compared with the NWT.

    The NWT says, ". . . and he will not stand . . ." Every other Bible that I have checked says, " . . . but he will not stand . . ." And the Hebrew text supports "but," not "and."

    Dan 11:25-26 is saying that the King of the South is the one that loses in that campaign by the King of the North. They lose big time.

    In support of that, Dan 11:29-30 describes a second campaign by the King of the North against the South. And it says regarding this second campaign that "it will not be as it was before, because the ships of Kittim will humble him (i.e. the King of the North).

    In other words, Dan 11:25-26, 29-30 describe two campaigns by the king of the North against the South. The first one in Dan 11:25-26 is very successful for the KoN. But the second one in Dan 11:29-30 is interrupted by the "ships of Kittim" and the KoN is humbled.

    And thus, the problem of trying to fit this part of the prophecy to Germany of World War I. The King of the North wins the first engagement in Dan 11:25-26, but is humbled in the second campaign of Dan 11:29-30.

    In contrast, Germany lost both WWI and WWII. (By the way, I posted about this on the DtT site also.)

    • Reply by Tadua on 2020-07-14 14:22:27

      Hi Bobcat
      Thank you for Highlighting that (yet another) mistranslation by the Organization in the NWT to obscure the fact that Daniel 11 does not have a modern day fulfillment.

      • Reply by Bobcat on 2020-07-14 22:13:10

        Hi Tadua,

        There is something of a mystery in this. The 1958 Your Will Be Done book uses the Isaac Leeser translation for Hebrew text citations. It has "but he will not prevail . . ." in Dan 11:25, and the book takes that part of the verse to be referring to the King of the South (as it should). The Daniel part of the first edition of the NWT had not yet come out when the Your Will book came out. So the explanation in the book follows the Hebrew translation they were using. It is also likely that Fred Franz had a major hand in the writing of the Your Will Be Done publication.

        The next explanation by the WT is in the 1995 book Daniel's Prophecy. In that book they make the same application as the 1958 book for Dan 11:25. Roman Caesar Aurelius = King of the North, Zenobia = King of the South (c. 270-75 AD time frame). The only difference is that now they were using the NWT which says, "and he will not stand" in Dan 11:25 (instead of "but he will not stand" as Leeser has). The book changes who is referred to that "will not stand" to the King of the North.

        You might remember that Fred Franz had died a few years before the Daniel's Prophecy book came out. So he probably didn't have a part in the production of that book. But he likely was a major influence, if not THE major influence, in the Your Will Be Done book.

        What I am saying is that it appears to me that the Bible translation they used seems to be the driving factor in how the Society explained that particular part of Dan 11:25, and not the other way around. When they used Leeser's translation they interpreted Dan 11:25 one way. And when they used the NWT they interpreted Dan 11:25 the other way.

        The mystery for me is why the NWT doesn't use "but" in Dan 11:25 (like every other translation does). But even the way the NWT has it allows for applying "and he will not stand" to the king of the south. "And" instead of "but" simply makes the verse a bit more ambiguous. (But certainly, Dan 11:29 requires applying "but/and he will not stand" in Dan 11:25 to the King of the South.)

        I guess it didn't matter all that much when they were applying Dan 11:25 to Aurelius/Zenobia. But once they moved the application to Kaiser's Germany they had no choice but to explain it the way they did. Actual history doesn't allow any other explanation (given that they had already decided to apply it to Germany).

        Just as a side note, researching this item in the Society's publications has shown me just how easy it is to fabricate a plausible explanation to a prophecy. The Society seems to be able to change interpretations without even blinking an eye.

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