The History of Adam (Genesis 2:5 – Genesis 5:2): The Consequences of Sin
Genesis 3:14-15 – The Cursing of the Serpent
“And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go, and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. 15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel”.
What is interesting about verse 15 is that throughout the rest of the Bible only fathers are said to have seed. It is therefore understood that the phrase “her seed” referring to the woman, is alluding to the fact that Jesus (the seed) would have an earthly mother but not an earthly father.
The serpent [Satan] bruising the seed [Jesus] in the heel is understood to refer to Jesus being put to death on the stake, but it only being a temporary pain as he was resurrected 3 days later rather like the irritation of a bruise in the heel for which the pain fades after a few days. The reference of the seed [Jesus] bruising the serpent [Satan] in the head, alludes to the final elimination of Satan the Devil.
There would be no more mention of a “seed” until Abram [Abraham] in Genesis 12.
Genesis 3:16-19 – The Immediate Consequences for Adam and Eve
“ 16 To the woman he said: “I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children, and your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”
17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return”.
At first sight, these verses could be taken as God punishing Eve and Adam. However, they could just as easily be understood as the consequences of their actions. In other words, because of their disobedience, now they had become imperfect and life would no longer be the same. God’s blessing would no longer be on them, which protected them from pain. Imperfections would affect the relationship between men and women, particularly in marriage. Additionally, they would no longer be provided with a beautiful garden to live in full of fruit, rather, they would have to work hard to make enough food to provide for themselves.
God also confirmed that they would return to the dust from which they were created, in other words, they would die.
God’s Original Purpose for Man
The only mention of death God made to Adam and Eve was in regard to eating of the tree of knowledge of good and bad. They had to have known what death was, otherwise, the command would have been meaningless. Doubtless, they had observed animals, birds, and plants dying and decomposing back to the dust. Genesis 1:28 recorded that God said to them “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” They, therefore, could have reasonably expected to continue to live on in the Garden of Eden, without death, provided they obeyed that single, simple, command.
In sinning, Adam and Eve gave up being able to live forever in a garden-like earth.
Genesis 3:20-24 – Expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
“After this Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she had to become the mother of everyone living. 21 And Jehovah God proceeded to make long garments of skin for Adam and for his wife and to clothe them. 22 And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—” 23 With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life”.
In Hebrew, Eve is “chavvah”[i] which means “life, life-giver”, which is appropriate “because she had to become the mother of everyone living”. In Genesis 3:7, the account tells us that after taking the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve realized they were naked and made loin coverings out of fig leaves. Here God showed that despite the disobedience he still cared for them, as he provided them with proper long garments of skin (possibly leather) from dead animals to cover them. These garments would also serve to keep them warm, as perhaps the climate outside the garden may not have been so pleasant. They were now expelled from the garden so that they could no longer eat from the tree of life and thereby continue to live on for a long duration into the indefinite future.
The tree of life
The wording of Genesis 3:22 seems to indicate that up till this time they had not yet taken and eaten the fruit from the tree of life. If they had already eaten from the tree of life, then God’s next action in expelling them from the Garden of Eden would have been pointless. The main reason God put Adam and Eve outside the Garden with a guard to stop them re-entering the garden was to stop them from taking the fruit “also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite”. In saying “also” (Hebrew “gam”) God meant their eating from the tree of life in addition to the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad that they had already eaten. In addition, while Adam and Eve would take nearly a thousand years to die, the indication is that eating of the fruit of the tree of life would enable them to live to time indefinite, not forever, not being immortal, but still living a very, very long time, by implication, far longer than the nearly one thousand years before they died without eating from the tree of life.
The land outside the garden needed cultivation, and therefore hard work, to enable them to obtain food and continue to live. To ensure they could not return into the garden, the account tells us that at the entrance in the east of the garden there were at least two cherubs stationed there and a flaming, turning blade of a sword to stop them from re-entering the garden or attempting to eat from the tree of life.
Other Scriptures mentioning a Tree of Life (Outside Genesis 1-3)
- Proverbs 3:18 – Talking about wisdom and discernment “It is a tree of life to those taking hold of it, and those keeping fast hold of it are to be called happy”.
- Proverbs 11:30 – “The fruitage of the righteous one is a tree of life, and he that is winning souls is wise”.
- Proverbs 13:12 – “Expectation postponed is making the heart sick, but the thing desired is a tree of life when it does come”.
- Proverbs 15:4 – “The calmness of the tongue is a tree of life, but distortion in it means a breaking down in the spirit”.
- Revelation 2:7 – To the congregation of Ephesus “Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’”
Cherubs
Who were these cherubs who were stationed at the entrance of the Garden to block re-entry to Adam and Eve and their offspring? The next mention of a cherub is in Exodus 25:17 in relation to two cherubs that were carved and placed atop of the Ark of the Covenant. They are described here as having two wings. Later, when King Solomon made the Temple in Jerusalem, he put two cherubs of oil-tree wood 10 cubits high in the innermost room of the house. (1 Kings 6:23-35). The other book of the Hebrew Bible to mention cherubs, which it does abundantly, is Ezekiel, for example in Ezekiel 10:1-22. Here they are described as having 4 faces, 4 wings and the likeness of human hands under their wings (v21). The 4 faces were described as the face of a cherub, the second, the face of a man, the third, the face of a lion, and the fourth, the face of an eagle.
Are there any traces of the memory of these Cherubs elsewhere?
The Hebrew word for Cherub is “kerub”, plural “kerubim”.[ii] In Akkadian there is a very similar word “karabu” meaning “to bless”, or “karibu” meaning “one who blesses” which are phonetically similar to cherub, cherubim. “Karibu” is a name for the “lamassu”, a Sumerian protective deity, depicted in Assyrian times as a hybrid of a human, bird and either a bull or a lion and having bird wings. Interestingly, images of these karibu \ lamassu flanked the gates (entrances) into many cities (places of safety) to protect them. There are Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian versions.
From the ruins of these ancient empires, examples of them have been taken and can be found in the Louvre, Berlin Museum and British Museum, among others. The picture below is from the Louvre and shows human-headed winged bulls from Sargon II’s palace in Dur-Sharrukin, modern Khorsabad. The British Museum has human-headed winged lions from Nimrud.
@Copyright 2019 Author
There are also other similar images such as bas-reliefs at Nimroud, (Assyrian ruins, but now in the British Museum), which show “a god” with wings and a type of flaming sword in each hand.
The latter picture is more like the Bible description of cherubs, but regardless the Assyrians clearly had memories of powerful creatures, different to mankind that were protectors or guardians.
Genesis 4:1-2a – The First Children are Born
“Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.” 2 Later she again gave birth, to his brother Abel.”
The Hebrew word used, translated as “intercourse” is “yada”[iii] meaning “to know”, but to know in a carnal (sexual) way, as it is followed by the accusative marker “et” which can be seen in this interlinear Bible[iv].
The name Cain, “qayin”[v] in Hebrew is a play on words in Hebrew with “acquire”, (translated above as produced)” which is “qanah”[vi]. However, the name “Hehbel” (English – Abel) is solely a proper name.
Genesis 4:2a-7 – Cain and Abel as Adults
“And Abel came to be a herder of sheep, but Cain became a cultivator of the ground. 3 And it came about at the expiration of some time that Cain proceeded to bring some fruits of the ground as an offering to Jehovah. 4 But as for Abel, he too brought some firstlings of his flock, even their fatty pieces. Now while Jehovah was looking with favor upon Abel and his offering, 5 he did not look with any favor upon Cain and upon his offering. And Cain grew hot with great anger, and his countenance began to fall. 6 At this Jehovah said to Cain: “Why are you hot with anger and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?””
Abel became a herder of sheep or possibly sheep and goats, as the Hebrew word used here can refer to a mixed flock. This was one of the two ‘career’ choices available. The other career choice was to cultivate the ground which appears to have been chosen by Cain using his firstborn status (or was assigned to him by Adam).
Sometime later, the Hebrew text reads literally “in the course of time”, they both came to offer a sacrifice of their labors to God., Cain brought some fruit of the ground, but nothing special, whereas Abel brought the best, the firstlings, and the best pieces of the firstlings. While the account does not give a reason, it is not hard to discern why Jehovah looked with favor upon Abel and his offering, as it was the best Abel could give, showing he appreciated life regardless of the situation mankind was now in. On the other hand, Cain did not appear to put any effort into his choice of the offering. If you are a parent and your two children offered you a gift, would you not appreciate the one that had the most effort put into it, whatever that gift was, rather than the one that showed signs of being hastily thrown together without any feeling or care?
Cain was visibly upset. The account tells us “Cain grew hot with great anger and his countenance began to fall”. Jehovah was loving as he told Cain why he had treated without favor, so he could rectify it. What would happen? The following verses tell us what happened next.
Genesis 4:8-16 – The first murder
“After that Cain said to Abel his brother: [“Let us go over into the field.”] So it came about that while they were in the field Cain proceeded to assault Abel his brother and kill him. 9 Later on Jehovah said to Cain: “Where is Abel your brother?” and he said: “I do not know. Am I my brother’s guardian?” 10 At this he said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground. 11 And now you are cursed in banishment from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood at your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it will not give you back its power. A wanderer and a fugitive you will become in the earth.” 13 At this Cain said to Jehovah: “My punishment for error is too great to carry. 14 Here you are actually driving me this day from off the surface of the ground, and from your face I shall be concealed; and I must become a wanderer and fugitive on the earth, and it is certain that anyone finding me will kill me.” 15 At this Jehovah said to him: “For that reason anyone killing Cain must suffer vengeance seven times.”
And so Jehovah set up a sign for Cain in order that no one finding him should strike him.
16 With that Cain went away from the face of Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Fugitiveness to the east of Eʹden.”
The Westminster Leningrad Codex reads “And Cain talked with Abel his brother and it came to pass when they were in the field that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.”
It also reads in Genesis 4:15b, 16 that “And Yahweh set (or placed) on Cain a mark lest anyone finding him should kill him”. “And Cain went out from the presence of Yahweh and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden”.
Despite Cain taking the life of his brother, God chose not to demand his life in return, but he did not escape any punishment. It seems that the area around Eden where they were living was still relatively easily cultivated, but that was not to be the case where Cain was to be banished to, further to the east of the Garden of Eden away from Adam and Eve and his younger brothers and sisters.
Genesis 4:17-18 – Cain’s Wife
“Afterward Cain had intercourse with his wife and she became pregnant and gave birth to Eʹnoch. Then he engaged in building a city and called the city’s name by the name of his son Eʹnoch. 18 Later there was born to Eʹnoch, Iʹrad. And Iʹrad became father to Me·huʹja·el, and Me·huʹja·el became father to Me·thuʹsha·el, and Me·thuʹsha·el became father to Laʹmech.”
We cannot pass this verse without addressing a frequently raised question.
Where did Cain get his wife?
- Genesis 3:20 – “Eve … had to become the mother of everyone living”
- Genesis 1:28 – God said to Adam and Eve “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth”
- Genesis 4:3 – Cain made his sacrifice “at the expiration of some time”
- Genesis 4:14 – There were already other children of Adam and Eve, possibly even grand-children, or even great-grand-children. Cain was concerned that “anyone finding me will kill me”. He did not even say “one of my brothers finding me will kill me”.
- Genesis 4:15 – Why would Jehovah put a mark on Cain to warn those finding him, not to kill him, if there were no other living relatives other than Adam and Eve that would see that mark?
- Genesis 5:4 – “Meanwhile he [Adam] became father to sons and daughters”.
Conclusion: Cain’s wife therefore must have been one of his female relatives likely a sister or niece.
Was this breaking God’s law? No, there was no law against marriage to a sibling until the time of Moses, some 700 years after the flood, by which time man was far from perfection after the passage of around 2,400 years in total from Adam. Today, the imperfection is such that it is not wise to marry even a 1st cousin, even where it is allowed by law, certainly not a brother or sister, otherwise, the children of such a union have a high risk of being born with serious physical and mental defects being present.
Genesis 4:19-24 – Cain’s Offspring
“And Laʹmech proceeded to take two wives for himself. The name of the first was Aʹdah and the name of the second was Zilʹlah. 20 In time Aʹdah gave birth to Jaʹbal. He proved to be the founder of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 And the name of his brother was Juʹbal. He proved to be the founder of all those who handle the harp and the pipe. 22 As for Zilʹlah, she too gave birth to Tuʹbal-cain, the forger of every sort of tool of copper and iron. And the sister of Tuʹbal-cain was Naʹa·mah. 23 Consequently Laʹmech composed these words for his wives Aʹdah and Zilʹlah:
“Hear my voice, you wives of Laʹmech;
Give ear to my saying:
A man I have killed for wounding me,
Yes, a young man for giving me a blow.
24 If seven times Cain is to be avenged,
Then Laʹmech seventy times and seven.”
Lamech, the great-great-great-grandchild of Cain, proved to be a rebel and took two wives for himself. He also became a murderer like his ancestor Cain. One son of Lamech, Jabal, became the first to make tents and move around with the livestock. Jabal’s brother, Jubal, made a harp (lyre) and pipe to make music, while their half-brother Tubal-cain became a forger of copper and iron. We might call this a list of pioneers and inventors of different skills.
Genesis 4:25-26 – Seth
“And Adam proceeded to have intercourse again with his wife and so she gave birth to a son and called his name Seth, because, as she said: “God has appointed another seed in place of Abel, because Cain killed him.” 26 And to Seth also there was born a son and he proceeded to call his name Eʹnosh. At that time a start was made of calling on the name of Jehovah”.
After a brief history of Cain, Adam’s firstborn son, the account returns to Adam and Eve, and that Seth was born after Abel’s death. Also, it was at this time that with Seth and his son that a return to the worship of Jehovah was made.
Genesis 5:1-2 – Colophon, “toledot”, Family History[vii]
The Colophon of Genesis 5:1-2 describing the history of Adam which we have considered above concludes this second section of Genesis.
The Writer or Owner: “This is the book of Adam’s history”. The owner or writer of this section was Adam
The description: “Male and female he created them. After that he [God] blessed them and called their name Man in the day of their being created”.
When: “in the day of God’s creating Adam, he made him in the likeness of God” showing man was made perfect in God’s likeness before they sinned.
[i] https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2332.htm
[ii] https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3742.htm
[iii] https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3045.htm
[iv] https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/4-1.htm
[v] https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7014.htm
[vi] https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7069.htm
[vii] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colophon_(publishing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Colophon
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Comment by Jack on 2020-10-18 11:21:52
And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return”.
From the beginning we have the whole Bible before our very eyes. Obey God, Listen to God, Do as Directed by God.
Eve believed the serpent rather than God. Adam listened to his wife rather than God. One was deceived the other was not. Both sinned against God. And so it went from Genesis to Revelation- Obey God, Listen to God, Do as Directed by God- has ALWAYS been the lesson for all mankind.
In the Watchtower as in all Christian religions there are those who truly believe the leadership is in effect speaking in God's place, in Christ's place. It then comes that though the leadership is teaching something contrary to God's instructions full trust is put in what is being taught by those deceived like Eve and those not deceived follow along anyway for their own selfish purposes.
Eve did not have the full Bible record as we do but she was still expected to obey the one command given from God. Adam as well did not have the full record as we do but he too was expected to obey the one command given directly to him by God Himself!
By contrast, all Christians today do have the full record of man's injury to one another, and himself, for not obeying God, for not listening to their Father and His Son. Yet, most Christians like Eve put their trust in what is being said from the pulpit and the platform. And if what is taught eventually fails the test of truth then they do as Eve did and blame the "serpent", the lying leadership who misled them.
Eve herself was held responsible for not doing as God directed. She was not given a pass simply because she was deceived. So also all Christians who have the Bible in their language they too know what it says and know what Christ taught. They too can be held responsible for listening to men rather than God.
Christ did not die so that Christians can sit in their churches and kingdom halls and do as men teach.
We ourselves are responsible for ourselves to do as God and His Son have directed. We are responsible toward God to accomplish and pull forward our ministry out of the house of men and toward the house of God and Christ. Let us not do as Eve did and blame others for our failure to follow Christ.
Let us rather learn from our mistakes and stand as full grown disciples of Christ. Leaving behind the culture of following men just as when a man steps out of his filthy clothing, bathes, and put on the clean.
JWs must be taught their own responsibility before God to do their own "make sure" of what they are being taught because like Eve they will not receive a pass for disobeying what is right before their eyes, the word of God and Christ.
They MUST NOT go to others, church or online, and then follow them instead but they should do the work, think it through, pray, pray, pray and pray some more. Trust in Jehovah, love our Father, follow Christ, love our neighbor and do not fear men because they will come and go but Christ will remain ALWAYS! with those who sincerely try to do as he directed.Reply by Jack on 2020-10-18 16:01:59
A suggestion to JWs:
The audio of the 1984 NWT Reference Bible online at jw org is superior to the new version. They have made the Bible into a Sophia and Caleb play. Not good. The constant interruption of different voices disrupts the line of thought. Also the Governing Body, no matter how hard they try, do not equal the reading of the 1984 edition.
Download the 1984 audio. Play it for yourself and your children.
JackReply by Jack on 2020-10-18 17:32:08
The heavenly hope.
Do the anointed need men to tell them they are called and anointed? No.
Russell said just about all Bible Students had the heavenly hope. Rutherford said the heavenly hope was closing and the earthly hope was the primary hope.
During Russell's time most claimed the heavenly hope, during Rutherford's time the heavenly hope started to decline with the earthly hope taking its place. It seems most followed what they were told.
If a disciple is called to the heavenly hope might he or she decline to partake of the emblems merely because the Governing Body tells them to? Yes. But only for a time. At some point they WILL partake because God leads them to do so.
Were all Christians in the first, second and third centuries etc. called and anointed with God's spirit- obviously not.
So also not all Christians are called and anointed today. Because if they were they would agree being led by the spirit, they would agree. Unless the spirit leads one way and then another.
If the Governing Body were all anointed they would agree on what God's spirit is directing with all voting the same way. But that is not the case. So something is wrong.
Comment by Fani on 2020-10-16 03:01:29
Comment fait on pour corriger notre commentaire ?
Comment by Fani on 2020-10-16 02:57:11
La bible ne dit pas qu'Adam et Eve auraient besoin de manger régulièrement de l'arbre de vie.
C'est une pure supposition qui n'a aucun fondement niblique.
Selon la Bible, il a suffi d'une fois pour que le couple en mangeant le fruit de la connaissance meure.
Il est plus raisonnable de penser qu'il aurait suffi d'une fois pour que le couple vive en mangeant de l'arbre de vie.
Jah met en parallèle l'arbre de la connaissance à l'arbre de vie. Même principe.
Quant au fait de créer des animaux dans la journée et les faire mourir dans la même journée me paraît insensé.
Que d'événements en 1 journée : création, mort, connaissance des animaux, observation et noms des animaux donnés par l'homme, constatation de la notion de couple et procréation chez les animaux , constatation de sa différence, de sa solitude en tant qu'homme, endormissement de l'homme pour la création de la femme, réveil de l'homme, découverte de la femme, émerveillement de la découverte de sa ressemblance avec la femme, ordre de Dieu de procréer... (je passe les détails de toutes ces découvertes ). En 24 h?
C'est à croire que vous ne connaissez pas l'émerveillement qu'on a à decouvrir le Règne animal. On est loin d'être rassasiés à les contempler et les connaître en quelques heures !
(et je parle juste d'un animal...). Lorsqu'on devouvre la beauté, la puissance, la drôlerie chez les animaux, on ne s'ennuie pas. Certains hommes y consacrent leur vie et ils trouvent leur vie riche et pleine.
Je pense qu'il faut des années avant de sentir un manque. (pour que l'homme puisse dire : CETTE FOIS ou ENFIN, c'est l'os de mes os, la chair de ma chair")
Je pense que vu l'intelligence du premier couple, supérieure à la nôtre puisque parfait, il pouvait comprendre ce qu'était la non existence. La bible n'est pas sensée tout nous dire des dialogues qu'ont eus Adam et Eve avec leur créateur. Ils ont reconnu la voix de Dieu dans le jardin ce qui prouve que Dieu avait l'habitude de leur parler. On ne connaît pas la nature de leurs échanges. Pourtant on sait que Dieu leur pose des questions et ils y repondent.
Adam et Eve ont sûrement posé des questions sur ce qu'ils ne comprenaient pas.Reply by Fani on 2020-10-16 03:26:54
J'ai oublié de parler du monde végétal.
Adam était comme un nouveau né. Il découvre tout. Tout est nouveau pour lui.
Pour celui qui aime le jardinage, il comprendra très vite le temps qu'on est prêt à consacrer à la terre et à sa production. A la fin de la journée aucun sentiment de manque. Au contraire, on est rassasié de bonheur du travail de la terre.
Combien de fleurs, combien d'arbres ai je pu découvrir en 1 journée ? Si peu. Il nous tarde juste le lendemain pour en découvrir d'autres.
Planter, entretenir, voir croître, attendre le fruit de notre travail remplit les journées, journées où on s'oublie.
Lorsqu'on découvre toutes ces merveilles on ne peut pas sentir le manque. On ne peut pas sentir qu'il n'est pas bon que l'homme reste seul.
A la fin de sa 1ère journée de vie, je pense qu'Adam était juste émerveillé et avait hâte du lendemain pour continuer à découvrir la vie.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-10-14 16:04:45
I have a question, Tadua. You claim that each day was only 24 hours long. The sixth creative day begins with the creation of "living creatures according to their kinds, domestic animals and creeping animals and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.” (Genesis 1:24) Then it concludes with the creation of the first man and from him the first woman, all within 24 hours. Since they had been created toward the end of the sixth day, they would only be a few hours old, so I cannot see how what you claim could be true when you write: "They had to have known what death was, otherwise, the command would have been meaningless. Doubtless, they had observed animals, birds, and plants dying and decomposing back to the dust."
Reply by Tadua on 2020-10-15 18:23:57
If trees were created fully formed with fruit which the text would indicate, then it is possible that God also created some animals close to death, which then died and Adam and Eve saw that.
Whether that happened or not we do not know, but clearly Adam and Eve understood the command and it must have had meaning too them, otherwise it would have been a one-sided unfair command to lay upon them.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-10-16 20:53:52
It seems like we are reaching to make the scripture fit with a preconceived interpretation. If the basis for believing that a "day" must be measured by our understanding of its length, because God adds no qualifier, we are making a rule or laying a premise and then judging accordingly. However, exegesis isn't only about immediate context but about scriptural context, i.e., bible harmony. If we want a definition of the length of a day, then since we are talking about creative days, that is, God's days, shouldn't we accept his definition? Does he not define a day for us in his terms calling it a thousand years, or even more?
“. . .For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night.” (Psalm 90:4)
If we are going to make a rule that it must be 24 hours because whenever it isn't the Bible adds a time qualifier, then we had better be sure that rule is absolute.
“. . .And the light of the full moon must become as the light of the glowing [sun]; and the very light of the glowing [sun] will become seven times as much, like the light of seven days, in the day that Jehovah binds up the breakdown of his people and heals even the severe wound resulting from the stroke by him.” (Isaiah 30:26)
Here there is no time qualifier, yet it clearly isn't speaking about a 24 hour day.
How do we explain the light from distant galaxies which has taken billions of years to reach us if the universe is only a few thousand years old.
We can of course just claim that Jehovah created the photons travelling from those galaxies and send them on their way to fool us into thinking they'd been travelling for that long. But that seems like eisegetical reasoning at its worst.
Jehovah was explaining terraforming to people with little scientific knowledge and understanding. Imagine a nuclear scientist explaining who a nuclear reactor works to a five-year old. Would he give a scientifically accurate explanation, or would he simply it to a level that his child would understand. Each creative day or phase could be of variable length. Some shorter than others, some longer. The first day does not include the creation of the universe, but the beginning of the terraforming operation that would convert the earth into an inhabitable planet. God does not rush things. He doesn't snap his fingers Thanos-like. What? It took him only 144 hours to create the universe, but 150 days to flood the earth? Seems he's losing his touch.
My worry is that the insistence on a 24 hour day lumps us in with the creationists and destroys the credibility which should be ours as logical, critically thinking Christians.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2020-10-16 17:58:26
Trees were not created fully formed nor were animals created close to death as the scriptures clearly indicate. Perhaps if Adam and Eve would have waited long enough they would have been allowed to eat from the tree that was in the midst of the garden, maybe when it came into season (Ec 3:1) and onward.
Psalmbee
Reply by Jack on 2020-10-15 19:37:34
No disrespect meant, Tadua.
Human father to son: Son I want to teach you about death. I stabbed a dog in our back yard if you wait and watch you will see it die. Then you will know what death is.
Human mother to human father: No that's wrong. Explain to our son what death is he's not stupid.
Perhaps Jehovah taught His son Adam about death.Reply by Tadua on 2020-10-16 03:57:31
On reflection your answer is by far the best, Jack.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-10-14 16:07:13
What is your basis for claiming that they would not live forever?
You write: " while Adam and Eve would take nearly a thousand years to die, the indication is that eating of the fruit of the tree of life would enable them to live to time indefinite, not forever, not being immortal, but still living a very, very long time, by implication, far longer than the nearly one thousand years before they died without eating from the tree of life."Reply by Tadua on 2020-10-15 18:15:30
I would like to add a clarification to this point which I did not include in the text.
My understanding from the wording of the text is that Adam and Eve needed to eat from the tree at an indeterminately long interval to stay alive and that had they been allowed to do that then they could have lived on indefinitely. In other words they could not live on forever without eating regularly from the tree, but provided they did regularly eat, they could.
Comment by Jack on 2020-10-14 16:09:18
"What is interesting about verse 15 is that throughout the rest of the Bible only fathers are said to have seed. It is therefore understood that the phrase “her seed” referring to the woman, is alluding to the fact that Jesus (the seed) would have an earthly mother but not an earthly father."
(Genesis 24:60) . . .And they began to bless Re·bekʹah and say to her: “O you, our sister, may you become thousands times ten thousand, and let your seed take possession of the gate of those who hate it.”
Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For, said she, God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him. (ASV)
The Bible is true to the fact that women contribute genetic material to their offspring: seed.
Comment by Jack on 2020-10-14 17:15:47
"The serpent [Satan] bruising the seed [Jesus] in the heel is understood to refer to Jesus being put to death on the stake, but it only being a temporary pain as he was resurrected 3 days later rather like the irritation of a bruise in the heel for which the pain fades after a few days."
I must state an objection to this characterization of Christ's death where when hanging naked on the cross he endured the accusation of blasphemy, an anathema to him, that it was only a "temporary pain", "like the irritation of a bruise in the heel."
I understand the comparison but object to the idea that it was so easily overcome as a temporary pain or irritation. The Logos LIVED for God, to be put to death as an enemy of God is a pain we cannot understand or know.
Jack
Comment by Jack on 2020-10-14 17:47:12
"The main reason God put Adam and Eve outside the Garden with a guard to stop them re-entering the garden was to stop them from taking the fruit “also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite”. In saying “also” (Hebrew “gam”) God meant their eating from the tree of life in addition to the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad that they had already eaten."
Good point.
If eating of the Tree of Knowledge was a sentence to death, eating of the Tree of Life would be a guarantee to life.
This could not be allowed in the Garden for two people who had proven themselves unwilling to obey their Father.
Comment by Chet on 2020-10-14 18:23:28
For most of my life, I was entirely convinced of the day/age interpretation, but there are some points that the Young Earth Creationists make which I cannot entirely ignore. I won't go so far as to dogmatically state that to be the only interpretation, but I have to say that they've given me a bit to think about.
With every step of creation, God saw that it was good. The Young Earth Creationist view of this would be that the animal kingdom did not suffer death until the fall of mankind, the argument being the a world of death and disease among animals could not be considered good. They will also bring up, at this point, that fossils reveal disease, such as tumors on bones, etc. which, again, would not be "good".
I probably would have laughed at this a few years ago, but the discovery of tissues preserved within fossils has brought into question the validity of the timelines proposed by mainstream science. Whereas, five years ago, I was completely convinced of a Deep Time explanation, I have to reconsider this and realize that the mainstream scientific community does not have as airtight of an explanation as they would claim.
In addition to this, I have spent considerable time researching the Flood and how it fits in with all of this. As it turns out, there are a number of Christians with advanced degrees in geology, paleontology, genetics, astronomy and even climatology. These are persons that have mainstream educations in their respective fields and have come to conclude that a Young Earth view is scientifically valid.
The significance of this as regards the Flood is that a Young Earth timetable and the Flood work well together. Instead of millions and even billions of years of gradual change in the earth, they propose a catastrophic history wherein the surface of the earth that we know was shaped by catastrophic forces during and shortly after the Flood, and this includes a flood triggered by massive volcanic events which most likely started in the mid-ocean ridge which would likely have triggered massive geysers and a raising of the sea floor, which would have allowed the continents to be flooded, not only from the downpour, but also from the rising sea levels. Such flooding would have swept massive sedimentary deposits over the land masses and accounts for the various layers which sometimes can be traced across several continents. This is also where the fossil beds would have come into play as animals were trapped an buried in sediment, so quickly that they would not all be scavenged.
Eventually, the sea floor, which is bedded upon basaltic rock would have lowered and the land masses, which are bedded upon much lighter granite, would have returned to their relative positions, with the land masses floating higher upon the earth's mantle and the seafloor being lower. But the effects of tectonic motion would have raised mountains to great height in some places, changing the topography drastically. The continents, would have broken apart into the arrangement of continents we have today, not in continental drift, but in continental sprint.
With all of this in mind, I have to say that the Young Earth view does present some compelling explanations which are born out in the observable world. This certainly explains marine fossils, even high in the Himalayas. It also makes a great deal more sense than the notion that dinosaurs vanished 65 million years ago. There is no scientific explanation for how proteins, and even red blood cells, could have survived that long without breaking down.
In reading Genesis 1 and 2, I could accept that Eve was created after day 7. If these two chapters are taken as being sequential, then God could well have rested before He "fashioned" Eve from Adam's rib. I would say that Mankind had still been created male and female, in that the genome for both genders existed within Adam.
None of this is posted with the intention to be argumentative or dogmatic. I am merely sharing some things I have discovered in my own research. I certainly do not condemn other interpretations, but I do feel that there is at least some merit to the Young Earth view and worth considering.Reply by Jack on 2020-10-14 18:47:39
"I would say that Mankind had still been created male and female, in that the genome for both genders existed within Adam."
I believe this is a Bible Student teaching.
The problem is it goes against scripture:
(Genesis 1:29) . . .And God went on to say: “Here I have given to YOU all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To YOU let it serve as food. . .
The man and woman were created as male and female not male with two genders.