Two elders meet with Shawn Burke to encourage him

Comment by Jerome on 2020-12-20 23:52:08

This was so painful to listen to. The elders, while claiming to be loving shepherds, did not attempt to address one single question raised by Shawn. Instead, their intention was to defend the organization and try and find a way to trap him into saying something for which he could be removed from the congregation. Towards the end it was apparent to me, by the use of the iceberg illustration, that they already believed he had committed something for which he needed to confess. They also displayed a complete inability to separate Jehovah from the organization. Like Job's false comforters they displayed a stubborn tendency to always have the last word, by offering worthless analogies and simplistic nice sounding but empty cliches completely devoid of any usefulness in addressing poor Shawn's issues.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-12-21 08:50:34

  When I told them I was no longer going to turn in a report, they said the same thing to me. They believed I was engaged in some secret sin. To their mind, there can be no valid reason for disobeying the F&DS which God himself has appointed, so any dissent must be put down to secret sin. To accept that someone is disobeying because they choose to obey God rather than men simply does not compute.

Comment by Dalibor on 2020-12-20 13:10:21

I would like to remind Nehemiah 9:32 
“And now, O our God, the God great, mighty, and awe-inspiring, who has kept his covenant and shown loyal love, do not treat lightly all the hardship that has found us, our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our forefathers, and all your people from the days of the kings of As·syrʹi·as down to this day."
It looks as if Nehemiah publicly apologizes in the name of the old leadership of the Israel.

• Reply by Frankie on 2020-12-22 17:23:18

  Hi Dalibor. Not only in the name of leadership, but in the name of all people (see v. 33 "but we have done wickedly". Frankie

Comment by swaffi on 2020-12-21 00:39:32

Way to go Shawn. I have many things to say about the discussion and I won't get into it too much but kudos for sticking firm and bringing up scriptures. You also saw insight because you could see that they wanted to drag you down to that rabbit hole and you made them aware of it as well. One thing I noticed, however, is that you said that you just used the Org's materials to find out information and/or study over it especially over 607BC. The elders must have smelled a rat because you mentioned many or all scholars having a different calculation of that year so surely in their minds they must have at least had a sniff that you were peering into so-called apostate materials. I appreciate you recording this and exposing what is going on with these sitdowns/shepherding calls or whatever the term is

• Reply by Jerome on 2020-12-21 10:14:22

  Hello Swaffi, It may be good to remember that the Watchtower itself admits that there are no scholars that support the 607 BCE date.
  
  *** w11 11/1 p. 23 When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed?—Part Two ***
  Note: None of the secular experts quoted in this article hold that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E.

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-12-22 08:44:00

From all this we learn that appointed men are not concerned with what is true, whatever level they may be at.. The odd individual might listen, but truth cannot be discussed, while what has been published is sacrosanct until "new light" comes. New light comes when either an interpretation of prophecy has failed, or enough brothers and sisters write in and complain about something. When those who complain write in, they will be marked as rebellious and not trusting the faithful slave ?
Remember, the GB are never in the wrong. Only the R & F are wrong, when they misunderstand what they are told by the Organisation.

Comment by Mike Felker on 2020-12-22 20:11:31

While I can't imagine being in this situation, I wish Shawn had been a little more tactful in his approach. He was far too aggressive and should have asked more questions. I hope he's able to listen back to this and realize how to approach it next time, though I fear the next time will be too late. But I applaud Shawn for his bravery and so many others who have had to endure situations like this.

• Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-12-23 04:14:07

  Welcome Mike. I enjoy your own commentaries as well as your comment here. Once we wake up to Watchtower deceptions it is hard to keep quiet. We are as tactful as when we first became Witnesses, although in reverse, namely that, back then, we should have shut up until we know what to say and how to say it, but the Organisation simply wanted us to speak up, and this resulted in our upsetting some people, friends and family in my case..
  
  If JWs didn't keep claiming to teach the truth and that they are God's exclusive channel , the situation might not have arisen. Unfortunately, waking up is traumatic and the alternative (simply leaving) is not always an option. We feel duty bound to explain ourselves, and, as you can see, it is only too easy to go overboard.
  
  All the best to you Shawn, also.

Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2020-12-23 14:58:45

Thumbs up to you SHAWN MENDES. The way you handled the conversation is not bad either. Enjoyed the invisible presence part very much because it got to a stage that they just had to pause and leave it.

What I will add is SHAWN only need to listen to this recording once more especially the last 30 minutes and see how the ELDERS threw the ORGANIZATION into the trash can unknowingly.

The elders said the BIGGEST TEACHING of the ORG is the RANSOM. They went ahead to state forget 607, 1914 blah blah. In essence forget The STRUCTURE upon which the ORGANIZATION stands upon.

They added JEHOVAH is not the PROBLEM, since that's the case the imperfect men LEADING the Jehovah's organization is the PROBLEM.


Since that is the case how come does LEAVING the ORGANIZATION makes one believing in the RANSOM a nullity?

How does that equate to LEAVING GOD? Why do they need to know SHAWN'S stands concerning the ORGANIZATION. Why does he have to put faith in an ORGANIZATION that looks towards adjustment like every other?

Comment by shrane123 on 2020-12-23 19:05:54

My intentions was to deal with this conversation way more calm and tactful, but just imagine a child predator hold you captive for your whole life and you finally get your day in court.

Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2020-12-24 05:42:43

Towards the end the elders said they it was brought to their NOTICE that he has committed a serious SIN.

I am wondering has the person who informed the elders laid it bare before SHAWN before going to the elders? Why was the elders asking the truthfulness of the allegation before SHAWN instead investigating it on their own. Didn't the INFORMANT submit a detailed investigation report to the elders.


The elders always have the mindset that anyone leaving the organization and going out there can no longer do anything worthwhile again in the eyes of JEHOVAH. Yet the individual who developed the ZOOM APP is a blessing and the milk of the nations Jehovah's people are to suck. Is that not a sign that the people of the nations produced things that are WORTHWHILE that can be used as FOOD for Gods people?........using the reasoning and mindset of the ORGANIZATION.


Look at the example in my own case after initiating my RESIGNATION process through submission of my letter. One of the elders (the S.O) came to give a final counsel in order for me to reconsider my decision. In the course of the discussion

he said now that I am leaving all the the THINGS I do while I was in the ORGANIZATION and get way with it will no longer be possible now that I am going outside of the ORGANIZATION. I kept mute and didn't utter any words

He went ahead to state that members of this ORGANIZATION are like BROILERS(hybrid poultry birds) that are kept in a cage and fed and looked after but those leaving the ORGANIZATION are like the (NATIVE POULTRY BIRDS) who no one takes care of. That they can easily get hit on the street by vehicles and all sort of things happens to them.


I said in my mind, is this really the AUXILIARY counsellor of a whole CONGREGATION. Did he remember the words of Jesus in Matthew 6: 25-30 about how God takes care of all his creation?

Thank you SHAWN for highlighting ONE KEY POINT I placed before them when I notified them about my RESIGNATION. The point is simply ALL ORGANIZED RELIGIONS as they are CONSTITUTED today are in CONSTANT CONFLICT with itself INTERNALLY and EXTERNALLY with fellow organized religion. I held on tight to this particular point and never allowed them drift into unnecessary.

This is what that point expressed entails

INTERNAL CONFLICT: as Shawn expressed throughout, their TEACHINGS keep changing. Anyone who is a member who fail to follow whatever they teach comes into CONFLICT with that organized religion internally. They get booted out or disciplined for going against what they know is not right. After some years the teachings will change back to what that disciplined members had expressed. Not only had they damaged their members, the ORGANIZATION itself is entangled in such internal conflict.

EXTERNAL CONFLICT: I don't think I have to express the CONFLICT the JWs organization carry-on week in week out with other Christian denominations in their books, magazine, brochures and teachings. Just like those on the outside do to the JWs organization.

1 Corinthians 21- 23 comes to mind do not boast in MEN( I belong to Paul, I belong to Appolos, I belong to Cephas).......

(I belong to Roman Catholic, I belong to JWs, I belong to LDS, I belong to SDA)

All those "I belong to" creates a WALL on its own which the Lord had torn down.

For example don't be surprised in the land of EX-JWs coming to this site or fellowshipping with brothers here is a wall to others????.

To remove the INTERNAL or EXTERNAL conflict. Start by stopping all the I BELONG to this I belong to that.

Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2020-12-24 06:09:16

Towards the end the elders said they it was brought to their NOTICE that he has committed a serious SIN.

I am wondering has the person who informed the elders laid it bare before SHAWN before going to the elders? Why was the elders asking the truthfulness of the allegation before SHAWN instead investigating it on their own. Didn't the INFORMANT submit a detailed investigation report to the elders.


The elders always have the mindset that anyone leaving the organization and going out there can no longer do anything worthwhile again in the eyes of JEHOVAH. Yet the individual who developed the ZOOM APP is a blessing and the milk of the nations Jehovah's people are to suck. Is that not a sign that the people of the nations produced things that are WORTHWHILE that can be used as FOOD for Gods people?........using the reasoning and mindset of the ORGANIZATION.


Look at the example in my own case after initiating my RESIGNATION process through submission of my letter. One of the elders (the S.O) came to give a final counsel in order for me to reconsider my decision. In the course of the discussion

he said now that I am leaving all the the THINGS I do while I was in the ORGANIZATION and get way with it will no longer be possible now that I am going outside of the ORGANIZATION. I kept mute and didn't utter any words. In my mind what comes up is I can do bad in "Jehovah's organization" and get away with it but when I do so outside of Jehovah's organization I won't.

He went ahead to state that members of this ORGANIZATION are like BROILERS(hybrid poultry birds) that are kept in a cage and fed and looked after but those leaving the ORGANIZATION are like the (NATIVE POULTRY BIRDS) who no one takes care of. That they can easily get hit on the street by vehicles and all sort of things happens to them.


I said in my mind, is this really the AUXILIARY counsellor of a whole CONGREGATION. Did he remember the words of Jesus in Matthew 6: 25-30 about how God takes care of all his creation?

Another elder said this my resignation could be because there are things that happens outside of the organization that now happens inside that visibly shock me. I said to myself, when it happens outside we should use it as fine EXAMPLE to demonstrate that others are FALSE WORSHIPERS but when it happens within. I should keep mute since its "Jehovah's organization" God will correct it?????

Thank you SHAWN for highlighting ONE KEY POINT I placed before them when I notified them about my RESIGNATION. The point is simply ALL ORGANIZED RELIGIONS as they are CONSTITUTED today are in CONSTANT CONFLICT with itself INTERNALLY and EXTERNALLY with fellow organized religion. I held on tight to this particular point and never allowed them drift into unnecessary. As at the time the S.O came for final counselling they were still looking for the basis of my RESIGNATION.
It was difficult for them to call me APOSTATE because I didn't debate any of the ORGANIZATION doctrines with anyone simply because I know what the standard response will be or what it will result into. I did any assignment given well enough to get the usual kudos and commendation.

I see you use the word CONFLICITED but the elders don't want to buy into it.

This is what that point expressed entails

INTERNAL CONFLICT: as Shawn expressed throughout, their TEACHINGS keep changing. Anyone who is a member who fail to follow whatever they teach comes into CONFLICT with that organized religion internally. They get booted out or disciplined for going against what they know is not right. After some years the teachings will change back to what that disciplined members had expressed. Not only had they damaged their members, the ORGANIZATION itself is entangled in such internal conflict.

EXTERNAL CONFLICT: I don't think I have to express the CONFLICT the JWs organization carry-on week in week out with other Christian denominations in their books, magazine, brochures and teachings. Just like those on the outside do to the JWs organization.

1 Corinthians 21- 23 comes to mind do not boast in MEN( I belong to Paul, I belong to Appolos, I belong to Cephas).......

(I belong to Roman Catholic, I belong to JWs, I belong to LDS, I belong to SDA)

All those "I belong to" creates a WALL on its own which the Lord had torn down.

For example don't be surprised in the land of EX-JWs coming to this site or fellowshipping with brothers here is a wall to others????.

To remove the INTERNAL or EXTERNAL conflict. Start by stopping all the I BELONG to this I belong to that.

Comment by Beroeans Creed on 2020-12-19 18:00:56

Thanks Eric,
This was very hard to listen to and unfortunately this is a classic situation brothers find themselves in and in my opinion the wrong way to approach a meeting with either the initial two investigating Elders or especially the JC that ultimately follows.
The poor brother is unloading everything that he has obviously discovered which if you remember your Elder days is a red flag that that will tell the brothers you have been reading Apostate literature a d a danger to the congregation, so I imagine that is what is next for Shawn.
Debating doctrine is a total waste of time, Elders are not equipped or interested in discussing WT doctrine. For two reasons
1 they are humans and suffer from cognitive dissonance and will 
not mentally allow themselves to even consider the poor brother has any valid doctrinal challenges as the current teachings are as good as from Jah himself.
2 the default defense is the GB/Organization loyalty question that was the first thing out of their mouths. 

Eventually all here who are still in the Organization should never try to debate WT teachings, you will loose every time.

When asked the loyalty question or how you view the GB/FDS the safe answer is,if you intend on keeping your PISA status, is to reply you view them the same way they view themselves by sharing the following......

First

2015 ARC testimony from Br. Jackson 
Q. And do you see yourselves as Jehovah God’s spokespeople on earth?

A. (Jackson)That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God’s spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days – and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these are the last days – there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfil that role.

Look up the recent WT study article That has the admission by the “GB they are not inspired by Holy Spirit nor are they infallible, they have made mistakes on doctrinal matters.
(can’t put my hands on it,I’m confident someone here will supply it)

Second If we are going to give any reason for our being stumbled just use two important non-apostate and proven situations

1-The child’s abuse debacle ( use the ARC investigation where Jackson made his now famous testimony. Couldn’t be apostate driven if he and the branch brothers were there.

2- The almost long forgotten UN WT. NGO  this one you must do your homework on because the Elders may not even know about this.(1991-2001)

Both of these are wildly publicized and documented and they are not scriptural grounds to remove you from the congregation.

Do not debate doctrine! You will never win, if that’s your strategy save yourself the time and just refuse to discuss your issues just let the chips fall where they may.

• Reply by Bobcat on 2020-12-20 08:54:27

  You might find this post and the next couple of posts (on the DTT site) interesting. I very much agree with the 'not debating doctrine' counsel. Like you said, it is a total waste of time. They aren't interested at all. The ONLY reason they would listen to you is to gather evidence against you.

  • Reply by Beroeans Creed on 2020-12-20 14:06:52

    Bobcat, thanks for the nice discussion on DTT about the GB/Org. Never apologizing for anything.
    The bottom line is he Organization has what I call TNS or Trump Narcissistic Syndrome, He has never even hinted at an apology for anything he has ever said or done in his life and becoming president of the US has only made it worse. You know it’s always someone else’s fault.
    The Organization has never apologized for anything and especially now since the GB has declared themselves the FDS they will never do any apologizing as they have totally convinced themselves they are the exclusive channel of communication between Jehovah and mankind (never mind their “older brother” Jesus) they have impugned righteousness, will be riding along with Jesus to wipe out billions during Armageddon, are due unflinching loyalty....Yada yada,yada you get the point.
    This has fostered the current GB TNS with symptoms like, we never apologize for....
    The handling of CSA- it’s the victims fault
    The 1975 false prophecy- it was some over zealous brothers
    The UN NGO apostasy - it was just for a library card, who knew?
    The ever changing blood policy, Doctrines, prophecy interpretations etc.- in essence blaming Jehovah for always needing to give them “New Light” every decade or so, can’t he get it right the first time!
    
    So it’s sad that even the Pope who claims to be the vicar of Christ on earth shows less hubris than the gang of eight at Warwick
    
    So let’s not hold our breaths for any apologies from the GB, well at least until 1 Peter 4:17 is fulfilled.

Comment by Fani on 2020-12-20 05:04:49

Je n'ai pas pu ecouter la vidéo pour 2 raisons :
1er : mon anglais n'est pas assez bon
Et surtout la 2ème : trop d'émotions lorsque j'entends ces frères. Trop de mauvais souvenirs.

Je sais par expérience que malheureusement il semble que cela ne sert à rien de parler des doctrines du Collège Central. Les anciens n'ont répondu A AUCUNE de mes questions. Ils n'ont JAMAIS pris la Bible pour me montrer que j'avais tort.

Pour ma part, ce n'est pas la mauvaise gestion des abus sexuels ou l'affiliation à l'ONU qui m'a réveillée. Je n'étais pas au courant. Je ne regardais pas les sites sur internet.
Je sais que beaucoup de frères sont dans mon cas.
Pour les WJ tous les sites hors jw.org sont mensongers donc ce n'est pas la peine de parler de ce qu'on a appris sur internet.

J'avais depuis longtemps des divergences d'opinions sur certains enseignements. A une époque je suis partie durant 1 an sans rien expliquer à personne.
Puis, j'ai considéré que la connaissance n'était pas si importante, que l'amour était au dessus de tout, je suis donc revenue.
Bien sûr, les questions sont revenues même plus nombreuses parce que je lisais plus profondément la Bible.
Quand la coupe commençait à déborder, j'ai demandé un rendez-vous pour exposer mes questions. J'ai également ecrit.

J'ai cru avoir été entendue, comprise et respectée. Je les ai remerciés. J'étais bien naïve.
Je ne savais pas qu'ils n'allaient plus me lâcher.
Ils m'ont après imposé des discussions que je ne voulais plus. J'avais vu qu'ils ne répondaient à aucune de mes questions et la Bible n'avait aucun poids. Je voulais vivre ma foi avec ma conscience sans l'imposer aux autres.
En fait, CE N'EST PAS POSSIBLE.
Comprendre qu'on M'IMPOSAIT des idées non bibliques a été un choc pour moi. Jamais je n'avais soupçonné un instant que la religion que j'avais depuis 50 ans et que je croyais honnête puisse faire une chose pareille.

Je ne me suis pas présentée devant le Comité judiciaire. Émotionnellement j'étais trop ébranlée.
J'ai donc été excommuniée comme apostate, moi qui n'ai parlé que sur la base de la bible!
Un vrai couteau dans le ventre.
J'ai mis 1 an 1/2 avant de sortir de ce choc, de cette sidération ! C'était comme irréel pour moi. Que de cauchemars ! Que de colère ! Que d'hébétude !

Aujourd'hui, il m'arrive encore d'envoyer des messages à des anciens, dont le surveillant président qui a affirmé du haut du pupitre, que l'affinage des nouvelles lumières ne changeait pas l'idée mais la rendait plus précise.
Je sais que certains lisent mes messages (marqués "comme lus"). J'ai donné beaucoup d'exemples dans mes lettres avant mon excommunication et maintenant dans mes SMS que des enseignements ont été abandonnés parce que FAUX et non juste "affinés" (génération, 1925, 1975, nombreux types/antitypes, homme à l'ecritoire etc) ; ils ne réagissent pas mais je me dis qu'il faut beaucoup de temps pour sortir d'un endoctrinement.

Le message passe, nos paroles ou écrits feront leur travail plus tard dans leur méditation personnelle.

Donc je crois qu'il faut quand même parler de certaines doctrines.
Bien sûr malgré les preuves bibliques, ils ne le reconnaitront pas de suite mais PLUS TARD nos paroles basées sur la bible remonteront à la surface.
Ils retomberont sur les versets qu'on a cités et ils se rappelleront dans le calme nos discussions
et s'ils sont sincères ils "verront".

J'ai souffert mais aujourd'hui je remercie Dieu d'avoir écouté mes supplications et m'avoir libérée de l'autorité des hommes.

Bon courage à Shawn et à tous ceux qui se réveillent. Après ces jours d'épreuve tu seras très heureux d'avoir défendu la vérité de Christ.

Eccl 11 : 1 "Jette ton pain sur les eaux, car au bout de nombreux jours tu le retrouveras"

1 Pierre 2 : 19 "en effet, quand quelqu’un endure des épreuves et souffre injustement pour garder une bonne conscience devant Dieu, c’est quelque chose de bien."

Merci à tous.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-12-20 10:16:35

  Merci de partager votre expérience avec nous. C'était très émouvant à lire. Tu as tellement raison. Ils ne discuteront pas de doctrine, car ils savent dans leur cœur qu'ils ont tort, ce qu'ils ne se reconnaîtront pas. Ainsi, ils enfouissent cette connaissance profondément dans leur esprit subconscient et essaient plutôt de faire taire quiconque n'est pas d'accord.
  
  Thank you for sharing your experience with us. It was very moving to read. You are so right. They will not discuss doctrine, because they know in their heart that they are wrong, something which they will not admit to themselves. So, they bury that knowledge deep in their subconscious mind and instead try to silence anyone who disagrees.

Comment by marielle on 2020-12-20 05:39:35

w17 février p. 23-28 Qui dirige le peuple de Dieu aujourd’hui ?
12 Le Collège central n’est ni inspiré ni infaillible. IL PEUT DONC SE TROMPER SUR DES QUESTIONS DOCTRINALES ou d’organisation.

Pourquoi Jéhovah dirige t-il SON ORGANISATION vers diverses erreurs pour enseigner son peuple, avant d’insuffler la vérité par l’esprit, est une question qui n’est jamais posée et que l’on ne doit pas poser.

Comment by marielle on 2020-12-20 06:33:45

Jean 1 : 27
27 Travaillez, non pour la nourriture qui est périssable, mais pour la nourriture qui demeure pour la vie éternelle+, nourriture que vous donnera le Fils de l’homme ; car c’est sur celui-ci que le Père, Dieu lui-​même, a mis son sceau d’approbation+. »

Notre survie peut-elle donc dépendre d’un autre, ou d’autres hommes et qu’on leur obéisse parce qu’ils « auraient reçu le sceau d’approbation divine en 1919 » ?

Sceau d’approbation qui leur aurait fait annoncer tout de suite après la fausse prophétie de 1925 ?

Que Jéhovah laisse enseigner des erreurs successives, (ex parmi d’autres, la génération) des mensonges, des histoires fausses par le canal qu’il a choisi, chose très étrange, ne leur effleure pas l’esprit.

Lui, le Dieu de vérité qui ne peut mentir.

Cette demande d’adhésion au GB même quand il se trompe, me paraît inimaginable et incompréhensible.
Oui, Éric, ils ont réussi le tour de force, de faire croire que obéir à Jéhovah et au groupe dirigeant du GB, c’est la même chose.
Tout en prétendant, c’est le secret de leur double langage, qu’ils n’ont pas de pouvoir sur notre foi. 2 Cor 1 : 24

• Reply by Frankie on 2020-12-22 17:36:57

  John 6:27. Frankie

Comment by Dissident Fairy on 2020-12-20 11:52:37

Shawn should have calmly point-blank asked questions in a methodical manner and waited for their reply. He talked over the elders way too much. The one elder was very condescending early on when he said, "You should know what Matthew 24:45 says." I thought it was said rather flip almost mockingly based on the inflection in his voice.

The elders seemed more interested in outing his apostasy rather than helping Shawn with the answers he was looking for. To me, it seemed as though the meeting was a mere formality to execute their predetermined judgment which reminded me of Eric's apostasy video mock trial/kangaroo court. No notes or witnesses allowed. 'We just need a confession and admission of guilt so we can execute our authority and forward it to the Governing Body. It reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition. I liked Shawn's point about being "a lost sheep" but sadly, the elders didn't seem interested in finding him. Instead of pulling him out, they left him in the pit.

Comment by Jesus sah Menschen mit dem Auge des Herzens – Bruderinfo-Aktuell on 2021-01-08 11:28:39

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