I get e-mails regularly from fellow Christians who are working their way out of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses and finding their path back to Christ and through him to our Heavenly Father, Yahweh. I try my best to answer every e-mail I get because we are all in this together, brothers and sisters, the family of God “eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:7)
Ours is not an easy path to walk. Initially, it requires us to take a course of action that leads to ostracism—a near-total isolation from beloved family members and former friends who are still steeped within the indoctrination of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. No sane person wants to be treated like a pariah. We don’t choose to live as lonely outcasts, but we do choose Jesus Christ, and if that means being shunned, so be it. We are sustained by the promise made to us by our Lord:
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.” (Mark 10:29,30 NIV)
Nevertheless, that promise is not fulfilled in an instant, but only over a period of time. We have to be patient and endure some hardship. That is when we have to fight with an ever-present adversary: Self-doubt.
I’m going to share with you an excerpt from an e-mail giving voice to doubts and concerns I think many of us have also experienced. This is from a fellow Christian who has journeyed widely, seen a good part of the world, and observed firsthand the poverty and misery that millions experience. Like you and me, he yearns for it all to end—for the kingdom to come and restore humanity back into the family of God. He writes:
“I have prayed for 50 years now. I have lost my whole family and friends and given up everything for Jesus as I didn’t have to write a letter of disassociation, but I did as my conscience could not stand by that religion (jw) I was in. All told me not to stand up for Jesus and just be quiet. Just fade. I have prayed and prayed. I have not “felt” the Holy Spirit. I often wonder if there is something wrong with me. Are other people getting a physical or noticeable feeling? As I have not. I try and be a good human to all. I try just to be someone who is a pleasure to be around. I try and show the fruitage of the spirit. But I have to be honest. I have not felt any noticeable external force on me.
Have you?
I know that’s a personal question and if you don’t want to answer I totally understand, and I apologise if I come across rude. But it has weighed heavily on my mind. I worry that if I’m not feeling Holy Spirit and others are, I must be doing something wrong, and I’d like to fix that.”
(I’ve added the bold face for emphasis.) Perhaps this brother’s question is the understandable result of the misguided belief that to be anointed, you must receive some unique personal sign from God just meant for you. Witnesses cherry-pick a single verse of Romans to support this belief:
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16 NWT)
According to the 2016 January Watchtower on page 19, anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses have received a “special token” or a “special invitation” through the holy spirit. The Bible does not speak of a special token or special invitation as if there are many tokens and many invitations, but some are “special”.
Watch Tower publications have created this idea of a special token, because the Governing Body wants the JW flock to accept the idea that there are two distinct salvation hopes for Christians, but the Bible only speaks of one:
“One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6 NWT)
Oops! One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, and one hope of your calling.
It’s so clear, isn’t it? But we were taught to overlook that obvious truth and to instead accept the interpretation of men that the phrase from Romans 8:16, “the spirit itself bears witness,” refers to some special awareness that is implanted into “specially selected” Jehovah’s Witnesses telling them they no longer have an earthly hope, but will be going to heaven. However, as we ponder that verse there is nothing in the context to support such an interpretation. Indeed, just reading the surrounding verses in Romans chapter 8 leaves the reader with no doubt that there are only two options for a Christian: Either you are living by the flesh or you are living by the spirit. Paul explains this:
“. . .for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, you will live.” (Romans 8:13 NWT)
There you have it! If you live according to the flesh you will die, if you live according to the spirit you will live. You cannot live by the spirit and not have the spirit, can you? That is the point. Christians are led by God’s spirit. If you are not led by the spirit, then you are not a Christian. The name, Christian, is from the Greek christos which means “Anointed One.”
And what is the consequence for you if you are indeed being led by the holy spirit and not by the sinful flesh?
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. For you didn’t receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.” (Romans 8:14, 15 World English Bible)
We do not receive from God a spirit of bondage, of slavery, so that we live in fear, but a spirit of adoption, the holy spirit by which we are adopted as God’s children. So we have just cause to rejoice crying “Abba! Father!”
There are no special tokens or special invitations as if there were two: an ordinary token and a special one; an ordinary invitation and a special one. Here is what God actually says, not what the publications of the Organization say:
“So while we are in this tent [our fleshly, sinful body], we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.” (2 Corinthians 5:4,5 BSB)
“And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.”” (Ephesians 1:13,14 BSB)
“Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.” (2 Corinthians 1:21,22 BSB)
It is important for us to understand why we receive the spirit and how that spirit brings us to righteousness as true Christians. The spirit is not something we possess or command but when we are led by it, it unifies us with our Heavenly Father, Christ Jesus and the other children of God. The spirit brings us to life as these scriptures point out, it is the guarantee of our inheritance of everlasting life.
According to Romans chapter 8, if you are anointed with the spirit, then you get life. So, sadly, when Jehovah’s Witnesses claim not to be anointed with holy spirit, they are in essence denying they are Christians. If you are not spirit anointed, you are dead in God’s eyes, that means unrighteous (did you know that the word unrighteous and wicked are used interchangeably in the Greek?)
“Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life...” (Romans 8:5,6 BSB)
This is serious business. You can see the polarity. The only way to get life is to receive the holy spirit, otherwise, you die in the flesh. Which brings us back to the question I was asked by e-mail. How do we know we have received holy spirit?
Recently, a friend of mine—a former Jehovah’s Witness—told me that he’d received the holy spirit, he’d felt its presence. It was for him a life altering experience. It was unique and undeniable and he told me that until I experienced something similar, I couldn’t claim to have been touched by holy spirit.
This wouldn’t be the first time I’ve heard people speak about this. In fact, often when someone asks you if you’ve been born again, they are referring to some such transcendental experience which to them is what it means to be born again.
Here’s the problem I have with such talk: It cannot be supported in Scripture. There is nothing in the Bible telling Christians to expect some singular spiritual experience so as to know they are born of God. What we do have instead is this warning:
“Now the [holy] Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, influenced by the hypocrisy of liars…” (1 Timothy 4:1,2 BLB)
Elsewhere we are told to put such experiences to the test, specifically, we are told to “test the spirits to see if they originate from God,” meaning that there are spirits sent to influence us which are not from God.
“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1 NIV)
How can we test a spirit that claims to be from God? Jesus himself gives us the answer to that question:
“However, when that one (the Spirit of Truth) arrives, it’ll lead you to all truth… And it won’t be speaking for itself; it’ll tell you what he hears and then it’ll announce the things that will be coming. That one will also glorify me, because it’ll receive things from me and then announce them to you. For everything that the Father has is now mine, and that’s why I say that it’ll receive things from me and then announce them to you!” (John 16:13-15 2001Translation.org)
There are two elements in those words for us to focus on. 1) the spirit will lead us to truth, and 2) the spirit will glorify Jesus.
Keeping this in mind, my former JW friend began to associate with a group that believes and promotes the false teaching of the trinity. People can say anything, teach anything, believe anything, but it is what they do that reveals the truth about what they say. The spirit of truth, the holy spirit from our loving Father, would not lead a person into believing a lie.
As for the second element we just discussed, the holy spirit glorifies Jesus by imparting to us the things Jesus gives it to impart. That is more than knowledge. Indeed, the holy spirit imparts tangible fruits which others can see in us, fruits that set us apart, make us light bearers, cause us to become reflections of Jesus’ glory as we are fashioned after his image.
“For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.” (Romans 8:29 Christian Standard Bible)
To that end, the holy spirit produces a fruitage in the Christian. These are the fruits that mark a person to the outside observer as having received the holy spirit.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22, 23 Berean Standard Bible)
The first and foremost of these is love. Indeed, the other eight fruits are all aspects of love. About love, the Apostle Paul tells the Corinthians: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.” (1 Corinthians 13:4 NIV)
Why were the Corinthians getting this message? Probably because there were some there who were boasting about their gifts. These were the ones Paul called the “super-apostles.” (2 Corinthians 11:5 NIV) To protect the congregation against such self-promoters, Paul had to speak of his own credentials, because who, of all the apostles, had suffered more? Who had been given more visions and revelations? Yet Paul never spoke of them. The information had to be dragged out of him by circumstances such as those that now threatened the health of the Corinthian congregation and even then, he protested having to boast that way, saying:
Again I say, don’t think that I am a fool to talk like this. But even if you do, listen to me, as you would to a foolish person, while I also boast a little. Such boasting is not from the Lord, but I am acting like a fool. And since others boast about their human achievements, I will, too. After all, you think you are so wise, but you enjoy putting up with fools! You put up with it when someone enslaves you, takes everything you have, takes advantage of you, takes control of everything, and slaps you in the face. I’m ashamed to say that we’ve been too “weak” to do that!
But whatever they dare to boast about—I’m talking like a fool again—I dare to boast about it, too. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I know I sound like a madman, but I have served him far more! I have worked harder, been put in prison more often, been whipped times without number, and faced death again and again. (2 Corinthians 11:16-23 NIV)
He goes on, but we get the idea. So, rather than looking for some special sensation or subjective feeling or colorful revelation to convince others that we have been anointed by the Holy Spirit, why not continually pray for it and exert ourselves to manifest its fruitage? As we see those fruits manifest in our life, we will have the evidence that it is God's Holy Spirit that is transforming us into the image of his son because we cannot accomplish that on our own, through the sheer force of our imperfect human will. Sure, many attempt to do so, but all they accomplish is to create a facade of godliness which the slightest test will reveal to be nothing more than a paper mask.
Those insisting that to be born again or to be anointed by God involves receiving some experiential revelation from the holy spirit, or some special token or special invitation are trying to incite others to envy.
Paul told the Colossians: Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, (Colossians 2:18 NLT)
“Worship of angels”? You might counter, “But no one is trying to get us to worship angels these days, so those words don’t really apply, do they?” Not so fast. Remember that the word translated here as “worship” is proskuneó in Greek which means ‘to bow down before, to submit utterly to the will of another.’ And the word for “angel” in Greek literally means messenger, because the angels where spirits that carried messages from God to humans. So if someone claims to be a messenger (Greek: angelos) from God, that is, someone through whom God communicates with his people today, his—how can I put this—oh, yes, “God’s channel of communication,” then they are acting in the role of angels, messengers from God. Further, if they expect you to obey the messages they relay, then they are demanding total submission, proskuneó, worship. These men will condemn you if you do not obey them as God’s messengers. So, we do have today the “worship of angels.” Big time! But don’t let them have their way with you. As Paul says, “Their sinful minds have made them proud”. Ignore them.
If a person claims to have had some ineffable experience, some revelation that he or she has been touched by holy spirit, and that you need to do the same, you need to seek out the spirit to feel its presence, first look at the person’s works. Has the spirit they claim to have received led them to truth? Have they been remade in the image of Jesus, manifesting the fruits of the spirit?
Rather than looking for a one-time occurrence, what we find as we are filled with the holy spirit is a renewed joy in life, a growing love for our brothers and sisters and our neighbors, a patience with others, a level of faith that continues to grow with the assurance that nothing can do us harm. That is the experience we should be seeking.
“We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers and sisters. The one who does not love remains in death.” (1 John 3:14 NASB)
Sure, God could give each of us a very special manifestation that would remove any doubt that He approves of us, but then where would faith be? Where would hope be? You see, once we have the reality, we no longer need faith nor hope.
One day we will have the reality, but we will only get there if we keep our faith and focus on our hope and ignore all the distractions that false brothers and sisters, and deceptive spirits, and demanding “angels” put in our way.
I hope this consideration has been of benefit. Thank you for listening. And thank you for your support.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Sky Blue on 2022-11-11 14:01:30
test...
Comment by James Mansoor on 2022-11-11 15:57:47
Good morning Eric,
I just wanted to let you know that you have spoken to my heart… I hope that I am speaking on behalf of all PIMO,s and others, that this coming memorial I will be partaking the bread and wine, to let my heavenly king and brother, that I am no longer following men but him and our Heavenly Father Jehovah…
“One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6NWT)
Many thanks Eric for all the help that you and others give.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-11-11 18:22:13
James, it has been and continues to be an honor and a pleasure.
Reply by Frankie on 2022-11-13 15:21:22
Dear Eric, thank you for your very important work.
FrankieReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-11-14 10:04:38
Thank you so much, Frankie, and I also appreciate your many positive and informative comments.
Reply by Frankie on 2022-11-16 14:31:54
Thank you, Eric, for your encouraging words.
Comment by Psalmbee on 2022-11-12 15:57:04
Just moving my comment to the rightful category.
Psalmbee
Hi Meleti,
I noticed you weren’t accepting comments in the most recent article, so I’ll put it here.
Shouldn’t the title of it be titled ” How do you know if you’ve been anointed with the Holy Spirit?
It doesn’t go over well with the above average reader so to speak!
Psalmbee, (1 Jn 2:27
Comment by Frankie on 2022-11-13 15:20:26
Dear James,
Thank you for your wonderful message. You made my heart happy.
Through partaking, everyone confirms that they have entered into the New Covenant and Jesus' precious shed blood washes away their sins.
“And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matt 26:27-28, ESV)
“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace”. (Ephesians 1:7, ESV)
“The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. (1Cor 10:16-17, ESV)
Anyone who rejects symbols, remains in sin because they reject the New Covenant. GB prevents millions of their followers from whitening their robes in the blood of the Lamb. I consider it as one of their gravest sins.
God bless you James. Frankie
Comment by James Mansoor on 2022-11-13 17:01:19
Good morning Frankie and my fellow Beroeans,
For 52 years, I have been in association with the organisation, all this period of time I was told I am not a son of God, but a friend of God, and I should not be partaking of the emblems, unless I felt the holy spirit drawing me closer to my heavenly father and my heavenly saviour.
I was ostracised by my family members for even thinking about partaking. I am sure I am echoing the sentiments of a lot of brothers and sisters whether they are on this website or out there.
At this moment I am making it a matter of prayer every day until the day comes, where I will definitely be partaking. I know deeply I will be ridiculed, laughed at, and called all names under the sun, and will be sternly told that something bad is going to happen to me for partaking of the emblems in an unworthy way… Do these words of mine sounds familiar to you?
Isn’t it odd that the experience Eric mentioned of the brother echoes the sentiments of many of us?
I was told as the memorial of Christ death approaches, Christ, brothers will be feeling a special longing towards their heavenly calling and if you don’t feel it, then you are not one of Christs brothers… Do these words of mine sounds familiar to you?
Lately, the holy spirit has been making me think about an example that I can give to every brother and sister that feels the way that I and the experience mentioned in the article feels.
If I am going to be taking emblems in an unworthy way, and something bad is going to be happening to me, then, why isn’t it something bad happening to the millions of Christians that attend the mass every week every month and every year, and they have been partaking the emblems?
The organisation has put this fear, and guilt, into our hearts and minds. Shame on them.
2 Corinthians 4:7 However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us. 8 We are hard-pressed in every way, but not cramped beyond movement; we are perplexed, but not absolutely with no way out; 9 we are persecuted, but not abandoned; we are knocked down, but not destroyed.
May our Heavenly Father, along with his son bless all of you, and especially you Eric, for bringing such heartwarming article.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-11-14 10:06:39
May the power of God's holy spirit continue to guide you into all the truth and bless the faithful course you are taking.
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2022-11-14 13:26:11
Bold and brave James,. It is strange, because, albeit unwittingly even, JWs have nearly got something right.
What is that ? That all the anointed should be partaking of the emblems, because, based on scripture, as Eric has made so clear, the word Christian and the word anointed are closely linked. And all Christians have the one hope, one baptism etc. Therefore, to this extent all Christians, by taking on that name, should consider themselves as anointed.
Thus it is so bad to encourage any Christians not to partake of the emblems. Partaking is an important sign that we view ourselves as Christians. Refusal is tantamount to a denial of Christ.
Hope you can follow my line of thought.
So encouraging to read your comments and Frankie's too, and Eric's as always.
Comment by Ralf on 2022-11-29 21:23:11
As I listened to this video, I found it difficult to tell if you consider Holy Spirit a thing sent from the Father, or is the Holy Spirit, a spiritual person sent by the Father?
Also, how do you define Christian? Are trinitarians Christians? Are those who are still Jehovah's Witnesses Christians? Must one leave the Watchtower (even if still physically in) to become a Christian? In past conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses, it seemed they (the Jehovah's Witnesses) believed that they alone were Christians, and I believe they would exclude both you and I from being Christians.
RalfReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-01 10:54:29
Many think they are Christians. Who's to know if they really are or are not. Jesus.
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)
If a person believes a false doctrine like the Trinity, does that automatically make him a false Christian? I think what makes a person a false Christian is declared in Thessalonians.
. . .But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. . . (2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10)
What matters is loving the truth. That means one is willing to abandon any doctrine, however cherished, when one learns it is false.
The Father is looking for those who will worship him in spirit and truth, not spirit and untruth.Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-01 16:29:54
I agree with you, none of us knows who really is a Christian, which is why I strive not to judge others. But we are called to share God's truth, and that means proclaiming truth to those whom we find in disagreement with God's truth as presented in God's scriptures. As such, God's truth does the judging.
If we love an error about the nature and activity of God, and love a way of living that is in violation of God's commands, it is definitely living in peril. But who decides what the true interpretation and therefore correct understanding of God and Godly living is? Do I or you? We can both sincerely believe we have a correct understanding (Trinitarian vs Non-Trinitarian) and are therefore being led by the Holy Spirit. I agree with you that the Spirit is only going to lead us to truth, and not untruth.
The Holy Spirit (a person given personal pronouns and attributed with doing stuff as an individual person) leads us into all truth which would mean an accurate interpretation of God's word. As sinners, we may miss some of the Spirit's guidance. But a truth lover and seeker is going to be continually conforming to the Holy Spirit's leading and will grow in knowledge of God's truth. Seems much of the Epistles/letters of the New Testament are calling Christians to do that very thing and not grieve the Holy Spirit by being stiff necked and refusing the truth plainly put before them.
I can just as easily say as you said, that a wrong understanding (i.e. concerning the Trinity) is being in error and not truth, and say that denial of the Trinity is error.
Who arbitrates these differences? God, by his word.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-01 18:16:27
Exodus 40:8 tells us that interpretations belong to God. His word will be understood by those he loves and concealed from those he hates. The Holy Spirit (a force given attributes which cannot be associated with a person and attributed with doing stuff that can only be done by God using his power) leads us into all the truth which would mean an accurate understanding of God's word.
Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-02 23:06:34
Who believes they have an accurate understanding of God's Word? The LDSs, The Watchtower. All the conservative Christian Denominations. The RCs.
And you believe that you have Holy Spirit given accurate understanding of God's word?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-03 09:51:32
To answer you, Ralf, consider these verses:
. . .“Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you; 8 for everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking, it will be opened. 9 Indeed, which one of you, if his son asks for bread, will hand him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, he will not hand him a serpent, will he? 11 Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him! (Matthew 7:7-11)
. . .“I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. (John 16:12, 13)
How unfaithful it would be if I keep asking the Father for holy spirit to guide me into all the truth, yet were to say, "I don't have holy spirit and am not being guided into all the truth." Does not the father know how to give good gifts to those asking him?
Do I have accurate knowledge of all things? No one does. That is the purpose of eternal life according to John 17:3.
I hope that helps to answer your question.Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-07 00:45:00
It is and excellent answer. States truth that I believe, and am confident everyone in my Trinity believing church also believes. So you and I both accept this portion of scripture, and in fact are depending upon it. Yet, we come to different conclusions concerning God.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-09 14:02:21
Correct. Conclusion, one of us (or both of us) are not being guided by holy spirit.
Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-14 22:03:02
Perhaps the answer is in who or what is Holy Spirit. A force empowers but doesn't enlighten. A Spirit being can guide. A force can't. The Holy Spirit is depicted as a someone in the scriptures, not as an impersonal force.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-16 12:34:12
We've been down this road already, Ralf. Sometimes it is depicted as we would depict a person, but sometimes it is depicted as we would depict a force. Are you so sure that because you can only see two options that there cannot be a third? Are you not a trinitarian who argues that while the concept of the Trinity defies human understanding, we must accept it as true, because it would be presumptuous of us, mere humans, to assume we know all there is to know about the nature of God? Does that logic not apply to the holy spirit as well? You see, that door swings both ways.
Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-16 23:51:29
Understanding how one God can be composed of three persons is beyond us and must be accepted because scripture describes the three persons as divine while telling us there is only one God.
But it's not beyond our ability to understand what God has revealed clearly in his word. Personal pronouns attributed to the Spirit who bestows wisdom, while a power can't do that. No, your logic doesn't apply to the Holy Spirit. That door doesn't swing both ways in this case.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-17 12:04:50
So you feel that either it is a person or a force, but there is no third option. Fascinating! Can you not see the hypocrisy of such a position? On the one hand, you admit that "how one God can be composed of three persons is beyond us." So, that is beyond you to understand, yet understanding the limits of what the holy spirit can be is not beyond you. For you, it is an either/or situation. How presumptuous of you.
Your premise is wrong. While scripture tells us there is only one God (proper noun) it also tells us that there are many gods, Jesus being one of them. Anyway, this type of discussion is fruitless as it is based on human opinion, not on Scriptures. You've provided scriptures you think support the trinity, but we've shown that your application of those scriptures is flawed on many levels. Let us not waste more time.Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-20 11:41:35
On this subject. I agree. Let's not waste more time. You apply all this reasoning to make your point, while doing violence to the plain and simple reading of scripture. To adopt your understanding/theology one must be a philosopher are a lawyer. God's word can't possibly mean the Holy Spirit is a counselor, or is lied to by Anninias and Saphira, or bestows wisdom. A third or maybe a fourth understanding of who the Spirit is is possible if needed to deny that personal pronouns are used in referring to the Holy Spirit.
I'll continue to check out your posts. I enjoy them, and though I have objected to some, it's not that I object to all. You are pointing out Watchtower errors to the benefit of many.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-20 12:55:52
There is nothing in the Bible that specifically identifies the spirit as a person, and even less, as the third person of a triune God. All your reasoning is deductive. Based on your deductive reasoning, the holy spirit must be a person, albeit an unnamed person, because it has the attributes of a person. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't. Why don't you apply your deductive reasoning to explain the times it doesn't share the attributes of a person. Are you promoting an idea (eisegesis) or letting the Bible teach you (exegesis)?
To demonstrate, Wisdom is said to have children, so it must be a person. (Luke 7:35) Unless you admit this is a metaphor, but then why not admit that the attributes of the holy spirit you point to are also metaphors?
Sin and death are called Kings. (Romans 5:14, 21). The NEB says that "Sin is a demon crouching at the door". (Genesis 4:7)
How can we be baptized with a person (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8)?
How can we be filled with a person (Ephesians 5:18)?
How can a person produce the fruits described at Galatians 5:22, 23?
I don't know what the spirit is. I do know that to teach someone that it is an IMPERSONAL FORCE would be going beyond what is written and imposing my opinion on others, which means I would be putting myself in a dangerous position, because as teachers we will receive a heavier judgment. But WAIT! Let me rephrase that for greater clarity:
I don't know what the spirit is. I do know that to teach someone that it is a PERSON would be going beyond what is written and imposing my opinion on others, which means I would be putting myself in a dangerous position, because as teachers we will receive a heavier judgment.
Further, to say that it must be one of these two options because I can see no alternative is foolish and presumptuous. After all, am I so supremely intelligent and scholarly that I can impose limitations on God? Or is it just that I'm so insecure that I have to compensate by making bold and prideful declarations? Or is it that I'm so desperate to belong to the majority that I must support their point of view, as baseless and twisted as it may be?Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-25 22:42:49
You do have a graceful, charitable way of putting things. I do know that the majority of Christians, a large number of whom are more intelligent than I, since the early years of the church have come to the conclusion that the one God is composed of 3 persons, using God's word. You come to a different conclusion. Am I correct in understanding that you were born into and raised on Watchtower teaching, and it was only recently that you left the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? So much of the Watchtower's theology is based on human reasoning and eisegesis. I'll stick with the plain reading of scripture, in context. I will also continue to visit Beroean Pickets. By the way, do you boycott Christmas and Easter along with the Witnesses?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-26 07:54:56
The fact that the majority of Christians believe in the Trinity is for me a red flag. We must remember that the majority go in the wide road off into destruction. The way of the true Christian is to enter through the narrow gate (Matthew 7:13, 14).
You seem intent on linking me with Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not boycott Christmas nor Easter. Instead, I apply the counsel of the apostle Paul found at Colossians 2:16. It is up to each one to follow one's individual conscience on such matters.
You seem intent upon linking me with Jehovah's Witnesses in what appears to be a way of disparaging the foundation for my belief that God is not a Trinity. This is the logical fallacy of "guilt by association." "Everyone knows that JWs are wrong about everything so they must be wrong about the Trinity as well, and so anyone who still believe in the Trinity has been influenced by Jehovah's Witnesses."
Let me ask you a question now: Do you believe all the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong? Did they get nothing right in their understanding of Scripture?Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-26 23:19:19
I have watched (not all) your videos from the past, so I know you left the Watchtower after decades. Were you an elder?
Thanks to Covid, and letter sending, I had 3 long conversations with Witnesses. I did a bible study on ZOOM with one pair of Witnesses. I've been reading jw.org and the jw on-line library. I attended more than a few ZOOM meetings.
During those conversations and reading, even when I found what I thought was common beliefs, it turned out that we had different definitions for the same words. Watchtower has nothing correct that I find essential regarding my eternal destiny.
How bout you? Do you believe Watchtower teachings will get people to paradise? I wonder if you and I agree on paradise?
Did Jesus obtain the forgiveness of our sins so that our faith in him as savior qualifies us for eternity in paradise? Do you agree with me that we will be perfect (if we are among the saved) upon our resurrection and begin eternity in our bodies on a perfect recreated paradise Earth?
I will no longer associate you with the Watchtower. You do share the Witnesses' denial of the Trinity. Do you deny the existence of hell, and hold to the annihilation of the entire person? Will you be recreated by Jehovah from his memory at the resurrection? Do you believe that at the resurrection the final judgement takes place and each person will either enter into paradise or hell (or be annihilated) for eternity?
As for the narrow gate and the wide path, Jesus said there will be many who will cry out "Lord, Lord" but He will not know them. Polls I've read show that a majority of Americans claim to be Christians, but, as few as 22% of them regularly attend church services. I can personally attest to the fact that many of the largest "Christian" churches in this country don't agree with my beliefs as a Christian. I read a study that found 69% of Americans claim the label "Christian", but only 9% possess a Christian world view. However one interprets these stats, it's obvious that how few or how many agree with either you or I will not determine if either of us has much of the truth.
It was quite some time ago, but I read that many who claim to be Christians actually agreed with the Watchtower that Jesus wasn't divine. They likely outnumber my smaller denomination and agree with you on that topic.
I'm thinking that your beliefs, not being "orthodox" Christian and also not being Watchtower, are held by a very small population. How many regularly join your internet meetings and of them, how many would you say agree with you on every point of doctrine?
My denomination, is certainly narrow gate small, as is yours. But we can't both actually be on that narrow path, can we?
Thank you for this conversation.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-12-29 18:54:50
I was an elder of Jehovah's Witnesses for 40 years.
You asked many questions and I would like to answer them, however you make a valid point about definitions. I concur. I have often found that discussions can ensue based on a difference in the meaning of words leading to misunderstandings.
So, what do you mean by paradise? What you mean by hell? What you mean by Trinity. I have found many people have differing opinions on what the Trinity is even though they all claim to believe it. Do you believe that only Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the history of Christianity are the only ones who deny God is a trinity?What you mean by the divinity of Christ?Reply by Ralf on 2022-12-31 21:57:33
Eric,
You were a JW for all your life until leaving the Watchtower and becoming whatever you classify yourself as now. I Christian I suppose. I am a Christian, raised a Roman Catholic and then have traveled through multiple Christian denominations, (not confident all of them were Christian) until ending up a Confessional Lutheran.
To answer your questions,
Paradise is the perfectly recreated earth/universe, where we as perfected resurrected human beings will live eternally in the presence of God.
Hell is eternity in the absence of God's presence and blessings.
The Trinity is the nature of God as found in the scriptures. I believe the Athanasian Creed is a scripturally accurate expression of the Trinity, and in so doing describes Jesus' divinity. Jesus shares the same nature with the Father and the Holy Spirit, but Jesus alone took on an additional human nature while retaining his divine nature with the attributes of God.
Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only group who deny the Trinity. Oneness Pentecostals do also. There are other more obscure groups. Mormons deny a Trinitarian God but believe that Jesus is a God and in a difficult to appreciate way so is the Holy Spirit. But then, Mormon's believe that what men are now, God once was. And what God is now, men may become. There were early church history groups who denied and/or qualified Jesus' divinity.
MarkReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2023-01-03 18:50:40
Thanks for clarifying your beliefs. I don't believe in the Trinity, but do believe in the divinity of Christ. I don't believe in hell as you describe it, nor do I believe in the immortality of the soul. The reason I hold to these beliefs are explained in many articles on this web site.
Comment by Max on 2023-01-03 16:41:44
Pour ma part l'esprit Saint a été envoyé en ce sens que la bible a été écrite sous l'influence de l'esprit Saint et se remplir de cet esprit à rapport avec le fait de se remplir de la connaissance qui va nous faire agir et plus nous cherchons à savoir et plus on trouve, c'est l'expérience que j'en ai et si nous sommes proche du créateur par sa parole c'est que nous avons suivi la voie qu'il nous demande, penser, réfléchir méditer et avoir l'esprit ouvert permet d'avancer dans la connaissance et donc l'esprit, et c'est la que nous pouvons être sur d'être rempli de l'esprit Saint car comme le dit Daniel le méchant ne comprendra rien
Comment by thegabry on 2023-01-10 17:13:01
Se Pensi di essere Guidato dallo Spirito Santo , fai lo stesso errore della JW!
Nessuno è guidato dallo Spirito Santo eccetto gli Eletti, che devono ancora essere scelti , e suggellati , Rivelazione 7:3.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2023-01-12 10:26:36
You are speaking nonsense, and worse, you are denying the holy spirit which could lead you to the unforgivable sin.
“. . .“These things, however, I did not tell YOU at first, because I was with YOU. But now I am going to him that sent me, and yet not one of YOU asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ But because I have spoken these things to YOU grief has filled YOUR hearts. Nevertheless, I am telling YOU the truth, It is for YOUR benefit I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will by no means come to YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him to YOU. And when that one arrives he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: in the first place, concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me; then concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will behold me no longer; then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU. All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to YOU. In a little while YOU will behold me no longer, and, again, in a little while YOU will see me.”” (John 16:4-16)