The fact is that no line of deductive reasoning, whether it brings us to condemn all those who die at Armageddon to eternal death, or permits us to believe some might be resurrected, is the basis for anything other than speculation. We can form no doctrine nor belief on such a theoretical foundation; for how can we presume to know the mind of God on the matter? There are just far too many variables in our limited understanding of human nature and divine justice for us to be sure about anything regarding the judgment of God.
Therefore, we can only speak categorically on the subject if we have some clear instruction from God’s inspired Word. That is where 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 and Matthew 25:31-46 come in, supposedly.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
This one seems fairly conclusive if we are trying to prove that those killed at Armageddon will never be resurrected, for it says:
(2 Thessalonians 1:9) “. . .These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength,”
It is clear from this text that there will be those who die the second death, “everlasting destruction”, at Armageddon. However, does this mean that everyone who dies at Armageddon gets this punishment?
Who are these “very ones”? Verse 6 says:
(2 Thessalonians 1:6-8) . . .This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.
To help us clarify who these ones are, there is an additional clue in the context.
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
It is clear from this—and our publications concur—that the lawless one originates within the congregation. In the first century, much of the persecution came from the Jews. Paul’s letters make this clear. The Jews were Jehovah’s flock. In our day, it comes principally from Christendom. Christendom, like apostate Jerusalem, is still Jehovah's flock. (We say "not any more", because they were judged back in 1918 and rejected, but we can't prove that happened then, neither from historical evidence, nor from Scripture.) This follows in line with what Paul wrote the Thessalonians, for the ones receiving this divine retribution do not ‘obey the good news about the Christ.’ One has to be in the congregation of God to know the good news in the first place. One cannot be accused of disobeying a command one has never heard nor been given. Some poor shepherd in Tibet can hardly be accused of disobeying the good news and therefore condemned to eternal death, can he? There are so many segments of society that have never even heard the good news.
In addition, this death sentence is an act of justified vengeance upon those making tribulation on us. It is payment in kind. Unless the Tibetan shepherd has made tribulation on us, it would be so unjust to kill him eternally in retribution.
We have come out with the idea of “community responsibility” to help explain away what would otherwise be considered an injustice, but it hasn't helped. Why? Because that is man's reasoning, not God's.
It would therefore appear that this text is referring to a subset of humanity, not all the billions who currently walk the earth.
Matthew 25:31-46
This is the parable of the sheep and the goats. Since only two groups are mentioned, it is easy to assume this is talking about everyone alive on earth at Armageddon. However, that may be looking at the problem simplistically.
Consider, the parable is of a shepherd separating his flock. Why would Jesus use this analogy if he were wanting to explain something about the judgment on the whole world? Are the Hindus, Shintos, Buddhists or Muslims, his flock?
In the parable, the goats are condemned to everlasting destruction because they failed to offer any succor to ‘the least of Jesus’ brothers’.
(Matthew 25:46) . . .And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
Initially, he condemns them for failing to come to his aid, but they counter with the objection that they never saw him in need, implying that his judgment is unjust because it requires something of them they were never given the opportunity to provide. He counters with the idea that his brothers’ need was his need. A valid counter as long as they cannot come back to him and say the same about his brothers. What if they never saw any of them in need? Could he still justly hold them responsible for not helping out? Of course not. So we return to our Tibetan shepherd who’s never even seen one of Jesus' brothers in his life. Should he die eternally—no hope of a resurrection—because he happened to be born in the wrong place? From a human point of view, we’d have to consider him an acceptable loss—collateral damage, if you will. But Jehovah isn’t limited in power as we are. His mercies are over all his works. (Ps 145:9)
There is one other thing about the parable of the sheep and goats. When does it apply? We say just before Armageddon. Perhaps that is true. But we also understand there is a thousand-year-long day of judgment. Jesus is the judge of that day. Is he referring to Judgment Day in his parable or to a period of time just prior to Armageddon?
Things are not clear enough for us to get all dogmatic about this. One would think that if eternal destruction were the result of dying at Armageddon, the Bible would have been clear about that. It is a matter of life and death, after all; so why leave us in the dark about it?
Will the unrighteous die at Armageddon? Yes, the Bible is clear on that. Will the righteous survive? Again, yes, because the Bible is clear on that too. Will there be a resurrection of the unrighteous? Yes, the Bible clearly says so. Will those killed at Armageddon be part of that resurrection? Here, the Scriptures are unclear. This must be so for a reason. Something to do with human frailty I would imagine, but that's only a guess.
In short, let's just worry about getting the preaching work done and caring for the spirituality of those near and dear and not pretend to know about things Jehovah has kept in his own jurisdiction.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Urbanus on 2012-12-04 11:29:46
Korah and the 250 rebels with him when down alive into Sheol according to the scriptural account at Numbers 16:29,30: "...the ground has to open its mouth and swallow up them and everything that belongs to them and they have to go down alive into Sheol..."
Is it possible that you are over-thinking this? In the words of Jesus at John 5:28: "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice (29) and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2012-12-04 11:53:30
The point I was trying to make using the account of Korah was that our old argument was invalid. That line of reasoning was that those destroyed at Armageddon don't go to the memorial tombs (i.e., Sheol) and therefore cannot expect a resurrection because they are destroyed by God directly. Korah was destroyed by God directly, yet he went down into Sheol, the memorial tombs.
I really wasn't trying to establish whether or not Korah will be resurrected. Likewise, I'm not saying that some of those destroyed at Armageddon will be resurrected. My only point is that given the lack of clear statements on the subject in the Bible, we cannot make a doctrinal assertion for either scenario.
Therefore, in our publications, we should modestly acknowledge that we cannot say for sure either way.
Comment by Urbanus on 2012-12-04 12:11:21
We can add a thousand speculations about what the Bible doesn't clearly yet reveal. Unborn babies, limbs or body parts that were never formed in the womb, faithful brothers who die in the chaos of the final days, etc. But the "Day of Jehovah" has a clear purpose. Since scripture states that Satan and his wicked demons will again be released to afflict mankind, (Rev 20:7-9) who and how the 1000 year Judgement Day admits to life by a resurrection remains to be revealed. Your point is well taken.
Comment by apollos0falexandria on 2012-12-06 11:15:59
I have to agree with you Meleti, and with Urbanus in that last comment. We simply cannot know who will be resurrected.
Personally I find it logical that Gehenna did not exist until after Jesus Christ gave his life. No one before that had the chance to make a decision based upon that sacrifice until it had been carried out. That is why I believe there are two destinations talked of in the Greek scriptures, but only one in the Hebrew scriptures. i.e. hades = sheol, but gehenna did not have a Hebrew equivalent. Also the unforgivable sin was not written about in the Hebrew scriptures (unless I've missed it somewhere). This is of course just a personal viewpoint, and I don't expect others to necessarily agree.
I found the 2005 WT study "Who Will be Resurrected?" to be quite distasteful. I for one am not going to make a declaration of my faith by commenting publicly that Cain will not be resurrected (or anyone else for that matter). Forget about putting ourselves in "the seat of Moses" (Matt 23:2). When we decide who will and will not be resurrected it seems to me that we are putting ourselves firmly in the seat of God and his Christ to whom he has appointed all judging (John 5:22).
Comment by Sargon on 2013-12-25 18:48:56
Good article. I wanted to throw out another possibility in harmony with 2 Thes 1:6-8. This account seems to parallel Jesus words in Matthew 24 and similar accounts. He will come after the tribulation to save his chosen ones and destroy the wicked namely those who subjected his chosen ones to tribulation. Rev 19 speaks of this war and those killed in it receive the second death. However in chapter 20 we see that the "nations" are still in existence immediately following this war. Satan is abyssed so that he can no longer mislead the nations. Are these nations unrighteous armaggedon survivors? I think it's possible. Chapter 20 also seems to indicate that all faithful and righteous chosen ones will be in heaven with the Lord following this war.
Comment by maxwellsmartjw on 2014-05-19 12:00:14
(I apologize for the typo at the end of the prior comment - please disregard)
I submit an alternate application of 2 Thess 1:6-10.... I am personally unclear if the persecution and hardship mentioned in verse 6 comes from within or from outside the congregation. No matter, in that Paul's letter was written to a specific audience (though it certainly can have broader application) and about a specific problem existing in the Thessalonian congregation (around 50 CE), of particular interest is the "timing" of when (a) the faithful are given relief, and (b) when those persecutors would receive their final judgment.
Verse 7 qualifies the timing of the relief and judgment to be "at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels" and verse 10 adds: "at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones". In that the judgment is indeed second death, the question is: When the persecutors died in the first century, what death did they experience? In that their second death judgment occurs at a future date, must not the death they experienced be the Adamic death? In that they did not receive their final judgment upon death, when and how do they receive it? Must they not be resurrected during the "judgment period" in order to receive their final judgment? Really, is it possible to die Adamic death, and while sleeping and unconscious be judged the second death, without ever waking up?
If we conclude they must be resurrected to receive second death judgment, and if we assume the judgment period is at Armageddon, then must not these persecutors be resurrected during Armageddon to receive their judgment? I am aware of no scriptural basis suggesting a resurrection occurring during Armageddon. Therefore, unless these were judged second death while sleeping, they must be resurrected. If the persecutors died Adamic death are lying asleep in Sheol, would they not be included among the "unrighteous" to be resurrected during judgment day? (Acts 24:15, Acts 17:31) In this case, would not second death judgment be contingent upon their actions during and at the conclusion of judgment day? (John 5:29) It is just as Jesus said regarding the unrighteous Pharisee's who will have a resurrection: "Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sod'om and Gomor'rah on Judgment Day than for that city. (Matt 10:15) Because of their hardheadedness, it will be difficult for the religious leaders (and persecutors) of Jesus day when resurrected to admit their error and allow themselves to be reformed. More difficult than it will be for the Sodomites to admit their error and allow their reform. Of course, any who's heart does not allow complete reform, will ultimately fail when under the final test, and undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction (2 Thess 1:9, Matt 25:46)
I find it harmonious to conclude that the judgment at 2 Thess 1:6-10 is one in the same as the judgment at Matt 25:46. This judgment is "final", not conditional. We currently teach the judgment of everlasting cutting-off (second death) is final at Matt 25:46. Then must not also the gift of everlasting life be final? Can we have it both ways? Can we say second death judgment is final, on the other hand, everlasting life is conditional? We must hold it is conditional, for is it not the case that an Armageddon survivor could fail the final test? Then in their case was it really everlasting, perpetual, unending life?
If second death judgment occurs for some at Armageddon, what would be the wages of their sin? (Rom 6:23) The wages sin pays is Adamic death, not second death. We currently hold that only active JW's will be Armageddon survivors, which means 99.9% of the 7+ billion humans will be destroyed the second death. The ransom price paid by Christ perfectly offset the wage sin paid for Adamic death, not second death. So, if we hold that the 7+ billion (or part thereof) are destroyed the second death at Armageddon, we must conclude the price paid by Christ's ransom was insufficient for these poor souls so pitifully unfortunate to be the generation of Armageddon (possibly 20% of all humans who've ever lived). Do they not deserve the same opportunity as all humans who died prior to Armageddon? Really, do they not deserve even more mercy, given the wickedness prevalent in our modern day society?
When does final judgment occur? Rev 20:12,13 says: ...... "The dead were judged out of these things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds".
Comment by irene evans on 2015-12-29 04:13:54
you say Christendom were judged in 1918, but judgement comes first to the house of God ....1918 is a date the governing body claimed this was when the bible students were inspected and made acceptable to God
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-12-29 05:52:29
Hi Irene,
Welcome and thanks for the comment. You are quite right and even in 2012 I didn't believe that Christendom had been judged in 1918. I acknowledged that Jehovah's Witnesses say that, but it can't be proved historically nor scripturally.
From the article:
We say “not any more”, because they were judged back in 1918 and rejected, but we can’t prove that happened then, neither from historical evidence, nor from Scripture.
Comment by Bret on 2016-10-08 11:52:56
This article is based on a couple false premises.. First of all brothers should go back and consider what Russell and the early Bible Students taught about Armageddon, the real Armageddon... Daniel 2:44 says nothing about the destruction of the wicked but it does indicate a takedown of the world rulers both governmental and ecclesiatical.
In Russell's volume on the "Atonement" he made clear the understanding of the "Ransom for ALL" not "all sorts of".
Russell also explains the 2 Thes 1:6-10 verses indicating this is in reference to the mellinium not Armegeddon...
First who was Paul speaking of? Those in Thessolonica... Who were those persecuting them? Would they be brought back at Armegeddon? And then destroyed to make this text fit the Armegeddon scenario of Watchtower?
"In that day" is in reference to the mellinium not Armegeddon...
Ransom for "All" or "Many" (Matt 20:28 vs 1Tim 2:6)
Does the Bible contradict itself?
How does the bible define many?
Did you know the apostle Paul contrasted "many and all"? Did you know Paul gave a clear definition of many as all?
Do you know the history of why Watchtower changed "All" to "All sorts of" when Freddie Franz did the New World Translation?
Brother Russell's book the "Atonement" would shock you to see how different the Real Ransom is from the one the watchtower teaches now!!!
Benjamin Wilson "DIAGLOTT"
Romans 5:18
Therefore, indeed, as through One Offense, sentence came on ALL men to Condemnation ; so also, through One Righteous act, sentence came on ALL men to Justification of Life.
Russell and early Watchtower taught that "just no man can out of the sentence of death in Adam, no man could get out of the sentence to life and resurrection in Jesus"..
We are all under and remain under the sentence of death in Adam until the resurrection.. The wrath of God remains upon us, until the resurrection...
Paul here says the same thing..
1Co 15:21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man.
1Co 15:22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.
Comment by Bret on 2016-10-08 11:56:02
Is "Second Death" possible in this age?
All men receive a resurrection and Judgment due to the "Ransom for all"
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall "All" be made alive.
Here it is that "ALL" shall be made alive. Paul brings out same thought at Romans 5:18, That "ALL men receive a justification to life. Notice Benjamin Wilson Diaglott
Romans 5:18
Therefore, indeed, as through One Offense, sentence came on ALL men to Condemnation ; so also, through One Righteous act, sentence came on "ALL men" to Justification of Life.
Just as no man can get out of the sentence of death in Adam, no man can get out of the sentence to justification of life, that is a resurrection and then judgement.
Jesus own words are in Harmony with Paul 1 Cor 15:22,23 and Romans 5:18 and Johns words Rev 20:12-15 about ALL men receiving a resurrection from the dead
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.
Again the order is that "they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment."
the word ALL cannot be changed! It is either true for all or the word ALL is made impotent and invalid..
This is in harmony with Pauls statement at Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment
Hebrews 6:2 shows the sequence, that is first a resurrection then a judgment!
"the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment"
Judgment Day is for all people excluding those who are justified to life now..
2Peter 2:9 ..... and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Rom 14:10 ...for we shall all stand before the judgment-seat of God.
The scriptures make it clear there is one period of judgment for "All Men" and that is "Judgment Day", and the scriptures are harmonious on that!
Second Death
The words second death are only found in the book of Revelation and they indicate no one is found to be there until the 1,000 years...
Rev 2:11 .....He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
The New Creation is not susceptible to second death because they gain life before the millennium and are Judges at that time..
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Book of life isn't even open for registration until after the millennium begins and Revelation chpt 20 clearly shows no one is in the Lake of fire before that time...
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
John confirms like Jesus, and Paul, that all the dead come back to life...
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.
The New Creation who do not remain loyal come up in the resurrection as evil doers and are judged
Only wild beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire before millennium begins
And they are not individuals but evil systems
Rev 20:10 .... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Comment by Bret on 2016-10-08 12:14:03
The Ransom that the Organization teaches is a contradiction...
Jesus gave his life as a "Ransom for All" or the "many", which means ALL see Romans 5:15, 19...
1) Ransom was free gift, by grace or undeserved kindness.
2) Ransom did not require faith or works, but instead saves every man out of death in Adam and to a resurrection in Christ (Rom 5:18, 1Tim 2:4-6)
3) Ransom met Jehovah's Righteous justice in that it was perfect life for perfect life and therefore covers all Adams offspring of all times. If Jehovah removes Ransom from any sinful descendant of Adam that it was already paid for then it violates his own Justice.
4) No new sentence comes upon any man at Armegeddon, all are under sentence of death in Adam already and revelation does not put anyone human in "lake of fire" prior to the judgment and mellinium...
5) the development of the "sons of God" is the pupose of the good news now and not the judgment of mankind that is future.. The "Sons of God" will liberate mankind.. This is his whole purpose at present (Romans 8:19-25, John 14:47,48)
The Watchtower Ransom is contradictive in that it gives the Ransom to all that have died prior to Armegeddon without faith or works, yet requires faith and works of those at Armegeddon. It goes so far as to remove from small children at Armegeddon in otherwords the Ransom is not applied to the children of worldly people at Armegeddon. So Jesus great work of Justification is void..
Comment by Peter Albert Hall on 2019-04-17 03:58:52
Dear Eric,
Armageddon is the great tribulation Rev.3:10, caused by the islamic jihadists since the days of "the false prophet" Muhammed. Rev.13 It has already become history. There will never be "the thousand year kingdom", because it has been in Heaven since the eleventh century. 2Kor.5:10 If the unrightious will go to the "second Death" after the thousand years, it would be of no need to resurrect them in the first place.
The second Death means; everyone who isn´t saved in front of the Court in Heaven will be thrown back to the Earth, the Lake which is burning with fire and sulphur. Jesus is here talking of the world beeing reborn. Matt.19:28 Dan.12:1-3 It began a thousand years ago.
If you are interested I can tell you more about Rev.13. The GB has made a huge error there.
Comment by Jonathan Davidson on 2019-09-26 11:16:06
If as an ex JW If still see the need to get the preaching work done, how would this be achieved globally unless organised and to some extent controlled?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-09-26 17:52:42
I'm working on videos on Matthew 24 to explain that. Check out Beroean Pickets channel on YouTube.