Our One True Name

Comment by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-12-10 09:21:40

Good points Meleti. Once we realize that we are wheat among the weeds we can identify sectarianism for what it is.
(1 Corinthians 1:12, 13) What I mean is this, that each one of YOU says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·pol′los,” “But I to Ce′phas,” “But I to Christ.” 13 The Christ exists divided. Paul was not impaled for YOU, was he?

Comment by Come Lord Jesus on 2013-12-10 11:33:09

While Peter may have known the true "name" of God, holy spirit evidently did not see fit to record it in the Greek scriptures. Thus it cannot be restored to a place it never was.
We do not have the divine name to call ourselves by, and if we think we are Jehovah's Witnesses, then we are not yet in the right courtroom. That is, the legal matter that involves us is adoption as sons by brotherhood with the Christ. Only as sons can we come to know our heavenly father.
Does placing a bumper-sticker on the back of the car like "Keep Christ in Christmas" or "Wise Men Still Seek Him" render more honor and homage to the Son of God than what we do in service by placing WTs and Awakes?
Just a thought!

• Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2013-12-10 12:13:40

  I agree with all of your thoughts :) Paul's inspired statement above quoted by Apollos, tells us how Jehovah feels about sects and divisions in Christ. There are basic beliefs that we should have based on scripture ,beyond that there is freedom on how we serve and worship . There is room for diversity not disunity. We can be individuals in Christ. However sects and divisions seem to be inevitable when people disagree with scripture….. We ( Christendom) can’t agree on who God is ! Nice thought Meleti!

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2013-12-10 12:55:37

Unfortunately, it was Rutherford's choice to separate "true" Christians from the false, leaving us now with the nasty legacy of reconciling our 'spirit directed' beliefs with the spirit inspired text.

• Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-12-10 14:07:51

  Russell did too....he gave us the "Bible Students" name. We are students of the Bible.... but still Russell gave us that name to set us apart. However, Russell's beliefs on organized religion seem to be very different than what Rutherford's ideas were . Rutherford was definitely interested in making a name for himself and us.

  • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-12-10 14:41:29

    Notwithstanding I still remain a Bible student, albeit in character and not name only. Is a Christian ever not in danger of toeing a partisan line?

Comment by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-12-10 14:18:55

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

• Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2013-12-10 15:33:50

  Lol! I got my laugh in for today ...too funny!

• Reply by imjustasking on 2013-12-11 01:32:29

  Very good Apollos - I really enjoyed that.
  My little story - I met a guy who was preaching in London (he was not a JW). We got chatting and used to meet from time to time.
  The remarkable thing, was that he texted me with the salutation, Brother. I of course was wondering who this brother was (ie another JW) then it dawned on me who it was.
  When I asked a JW brother in the congregation would he call someone outside of JW's a brother, predictably the answer was NO!! Although that was just one persons response, I'm sure it represents what we as JWs would also have said. What does that tell us about our love?

  • Reply by Andrew on 2013-12-12 11:09:59

    Brother Russell often referred to those of other faiths, even clergymen, as "brother." I wonder if he would get in trouble today for doing so?
    Andrew

  • Reply by mdnwa on 2013-12-12 14:10:47

    One thing I ALWAYS had an issue with was the term "worldly" to identify anyone not a JW. "Worldly" to me is the most judgmental term EVER and when JW's use that term it's like scratching a chalkboard with me. When I think about love I think about Jesus talking with many, even breaking bread with ones many thought he should not. I think about the love of his apostles who risked their lives for not only one another but ones not familiar. I think about God referring to ones who were not of his direct people but were mentioned in the bible as not only acceptable but served purposes along with his people. I just don't Jesus walked around pointing saying "he's worldly.. he's worldly... oh she's definitely worldly!"
    While those who live or want me to live a lifestyle that conflicts greatly with my bible conscience/ bible instructions are not my brothers I believe ALL MANKIND who strive to worship God in truth and understanding are my brothers and sisters after all.. the bible says God is not partial to ones who want to serve him so why should I be different? Even ones who don't share my beliefs or standards while I am not their friend I still respect them and request they do the same. I don't treat them like they have the plague since they way I handle that situation could lead them to serving God one day. I talk with other Christians and they also have welcomed me brother and while there might be differences they respect my views since ultimately while we might have different interpretations of scriptures we both wait patiently for God to make ALL THINGS clear. It's mankind who continues to create divisions of faith something no doubt Satan is pleased at the confusion and doubt. We hear a lot about the bible scripture saying be "no part of this world" but there's a difference between not being a part of the wrong thinking of certain ones and separating as an exclusive judgmental group while claiming all who aren't as us are deemed evil or worldly unworthy or everlasting benefits from God.
    Being presumptuous, claiming to understand all things in the bible even though even angels don't understand, or moving before God leads to nothing but confusion, embarrassment, and sometimes punishment.

    • Reply by kev c on 2013-12-12 18:11:18

      good comments mdwna I feel similar its not up to us to judge who is a christian and who isn't. Some people have different beliefs based on their interpretation of scripture. I think those who take the bible seriously realise that sometimes its not easy to work out bible doctrine. I think the watchtower interpretation of 1 corinthians 1 v 10 that we should all speak in agreement on everything is out of context. The important thing is to follow christ not men. In fact the bible shows at romans 14 that we would have some differences of opinion. 1 corinthians 8 v 1 to 3. Shows that our knowledge is not complete and this could be a stumbling block to us and others perhaps leading to divisions. Perhaps that's why jesus said that the true identifying mark is not knowledge at all but LOVE. How do we really measure up in this regard the brothers eargerly await armageddon and the judgement of christ. But what will it bring. If we are too willing to condemn others. Kev c

      • Reply by Andrew on 2013-12-12 20:06:25

        Good advive.
        "So be careful not to jump to conclusions before the Lord returns as to whether someone is a good servant or not. When the Lord comes, he will turn on the light so that everyone can see exactly what each one of us is really like, deep down in our hearts. Then everyone will know why we have been doing the Lord’s work. At that time God will give to each one whatever praise is coming to him." 2 Cor 4:5 (The Living Bible)

        • Reply by Andrew on 2013-12-12 20:07:50

          Sorry.
          1Cor 4:5

    • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-12-16 13:49:13

      Hi mdnwa,
      I think this is a great comment. We rightly should separate ourselves from the immoral standards of Satan's world. But to classify individual people in such a binary fashion as our members are encouraged to do, is to encourage people to ignore Jesus important command not to judge. As an organization we are perhaps the most judgmental of any that exists. I cannot think of any "organizational mindset" that falls so foul of this particular command.
      There seems to be no question that this started with Rutherford. And he was the one that was intent on creating a distinct "organization". It just goes hand in hand.
      For any reading this who might be thinking that the only alternative is to slide into tolerance of the world's falling standards I ask you to consider whether the engendering of a judgmental mindset avoids this, or whether true Christians will rather avoid those standards on the basis of love for Christ and his commands.
      Apollos

Comment by Andronicus on 2013-12-10 15:31:04

"the disciples also were divinely called first in Antioch Christians." Young's Literal Translation of Acts 11:26. Divine calling is not to be tampered with.

Comment by imjustasking on 2013-12-11 01:38:28

With the danger of sounding boring, I'll repeat a comment I made a while back on another topic.
The name Jehovah's Witness taken from Isaiah is NOT something we should be proud of. Read the whole of chapter 43 and notice the context.
God was chastising the nation for being a poor witness to his name. He had called them to court to be his witnesses, but they were such poor witnesses that he condemned them.
So when Jehovah said "you are my witnesses" it was in a pejorative sense. Further it was not said as a prophetic statement. Where Rutherford pulled that one from, I just don't know.

• Reply by mdnwa on 2013-12-12 13:30:44

  I agree and respectfully disagree with your comment. While I agree the tone of the last few versus is different the majority of this chapter I think our perception of who each segment refers to is important. Some have came down on JW's for using a snippet of a chapter as validation of certain points however sometimes in my opinion it works the other way as well since I've seen ones use one chapter to prove a point although the previous or next chapters seems to have a changed tone that might lead me to feel different about that scripture and its application. I think in every case of using the bible to associate your beliefs or standing with God, motive and intent should be the determining factor in why it was used, which unfortunately unless we can read hearts and minds we cannot say for sure unless the person manifests such through words. :)
  Many Christians have made this chapter their favorite of the whole prophecy of Isaiah. Why? To me it's because of the words expressed at the start is beautiful words that Jehovah has spoken to his people, words that ANYONE would LOVE to hear from Jehovah and if he said directly to me I would probably cry like a child and feel unworthy. Knowing this and hearing many people who reference this scripture as basis for their faith lets me believe while the lat few versus take on a different tone the first part is overwhelmingly positive. But after researching this scripture this scripture went deeper than just done. During research I found this and like to get your opinion on it.
  "In the previous chapter here, Isaiah made it very clear that there are "two Israels"; and the very first necessity here is to determine which of the two was addressed by these marvelous promises of comfort, security, blessing, and salvation.However, it should never be overlooked that the blind and deaf servant (the physical Israel, the old Israel, the fleshly Israel) also appears in the last two verses of this chapter. Therefore, the words here are addressed, first to the New Israel, the True Israel, the Spiritual Israel; and then, in the last two verses, the address changes back to the prophecy regarding the former Israel.
  There is, however, an almost universal misunderstanding of these first seven verses; and many commentators mistakenly apply them to the old physical Israel, the historical Jews, to which these particular verses have no reference at all.These precious promises are not in any sense whatever applicable to the rebellious, wicked Israelites, who, as Isaiah wrote this, were still pursuing an exceedingly evil path of sin and rebellion against God."
  So in my opinion this chapter seems to talk about two different groups so I can understand why some would welcome the first part of the scripture when in their eyes they are not falling into the course of rebellious Israelites rejecting God, but ones who welcome his blessings and showing appreciation. In that sense, JW's or anyone for that matter, could use that scripture as basis for their belief thinking they were imitating Israel that was acceptable in Gods eyes. Now do I know if Jehovah ever inspired anyone in the org to take on his name or say they represent the ONLY true channel? No. In the future God will either validate that or condemn the org for that.

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2013-12-11 02:12:51

And at the risk of repeating myself, I agree. The call to be Jehovah's witness had extremely negative connotations.

Comment by kev c on 2013-12-11 02:44:19

Yes we should be called christians not a member of st marks st pauls st peters church or jehovahs witnesses. Its sectarian and divisive. I remember a few years ago this struck me and when asked the queastion who are you I used to say I'm a christian and I had quite a few nice responses. The brothers didn't like it though I was corrected a few times in front of the householder. I feel that the religion is based more on the old testament than the new sometimes

• Reply by Andronicus on 2013-12-11 11:32:34

  I agree. Just check out the calendar for 2014. Are we going back to the elementary things Chrisians left behind?

  • Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2013-12-11 12:11:13

    The "Who Are Doing Jehovah’s Will Today" ? brochure we are studying is annoying. It contains no "solid food" whatsover . Its just a brief intro to JW's . Much like you would find in a welcome packet when you are hired for a new job.

  • Reply by imjustasking on 2013-12-11 16:06:28

    I think we are a hybrid between Judaism and Christianity. Judeo-Christians comes to mind

    • Reply by kev c on 2013-12-12 18:35:05

      Yes judeo christianity. Not exactly but the sort of thing Paul warned about in his letter to the Galatians but it doesn't surprise me when the only time many are reading the bible in context is in the weekly bible reading. And we spend by far most of that time reading the Hebrew scriptures instead of what we should be doing studying the christian scriptures and grasping the realities rather than the shadow. Kev c.

Comment by STEWART on 2013-12-12 14:37:25

I agree with you Meleti - but I feel it is far more serious than we may realize. J.F. Rutherford effectively rebranded the Bible Students as JWs as a designer name - to distinguish them from the other Bible Student groups who abandoned him.
Therefore, using the name Jehovah as a 'brand name' is taking God's name in vain.
Jehovah never even called the Israelites by His own name!
We are, and should be, Witnesses for Christ - Christians!
Matthew 10:18 - "YOU will be haled before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations.
Mark 13:9 - and YOU will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them."
Acts 1:8 - "You will be witnesses of me;
John 1:15 - "John bore witness about him..." [JESUS]
John 5:37 - "the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me."
John 8:18 - "the Father who sent me bears witness about me."
John 15:26,27 - "the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; and YOU in turn, are to bear witness." [exactly as the spirit bore witness - about me];
Acts 4:17,18 - Nevertheless, in order that it may not be spread abroad further among the people, let us tell them with threats not to speak anymore upon the basis of this name to any man at all. With that they called them and charged them, nowhere to make any utterance or to teach upon the basis of the name of Jesus.
Acts 10:39 - "And we are witnesses of all the things he [Jesus] did..."
Acts 10:43 - "To him [Jesus] all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name.
Acts 11:26 - "the disciples were by divine providence called Christians."
Acts 13:31 - "and for many days he [Jesus] became visible to those who had gone up with him from Gal´i·lee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.
Acts 22:15 - "because you are to be a witness for him [Jesus] to all men of things you have seen and heard."
Acts 22:20 - "and when the blood of Stephen your [Jesus'] witness was being spilled..."
Acts 23:11 - "For as you have been giving a thorough witness on the things about me in Jerusalem..."
Acts 26:16 - "For to this end I [Jesus] have made myself visible to you, in order to choose you as an attendant and a witness.......respecting me"
1 Corinthians 1:6 - "even as the witness about the Christ has been rendered firm among YOU..."
1 Tim. 2:6,7 - "who [Christ] gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle..."
2 Timothy 1:8 - "Therefore do not become ashamed of the witness about our Lord.. [Christ]"
1 John 5:9 - "the witness God gives is greater, because this is the witness God gives, the fact that he has borne witness concerning his Son."
Revelation 1:9 - "....came to be in the isle that is called Pat´mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus."
Revelation 12:17 - "And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus."
Revelation 17:6 - "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."
Revelation 19:10 - "But he tells me: "Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying."
Revelation 20:4 - "Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus."

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-12-12 18:08:55

  Thank you so much Stewart, for taking the time to provide this exhaustive list of Scriptures supporting the idea that we bear witness of Jesus. How can we argue against this?

• Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-12-13 13:41:18

  From ancient times, names defined the whole of ones character, the exact representation of ones very being. Names even got changed midlife when that character was changed.
  For example Abraham wasn’t always Abraham. Neither was Sarah always Sarah. Isaac was named after his mother’s laughter and Jacob was renamed Israel. Even Jehovah himself changed his name for Moses sake in Exodus 3:14-15 when He said, “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’”
  Note the footnote to vs. 14* —“I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Heb., ה ר ה (’Eh•yeh′ ’Asher′ ’Eh•yeh′), God’s own self-designation; Leeser, “I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE”; Rotherham, “I Will Become whatsoever I please.” Gr., E•go′ ei•mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”; Lat., e′go sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.” ’Eh•yeh′ comes from the Heb. verb ha•yah′, “become; prove to be.” Here ’Eh•yeh′ is in the imperfect state, first person sing., meaning “I shall become”; or, “I shall prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Compare Ge 2:4 ftn, “Jehovah,” where the kindred, but different, Heb. verb ha•wah′ appears in the divine name.
  Does not Jesus own name incorporate the name of the Father? And when we pray in his name, is it not true that he will only give us what we pray for if our prayer is in harmony with the character of Jesus? Is the truth THAT simple?
  Ecclesiastes 7:1—“A name is better than good oil.”
  sw

  • Reply by crazyguy on 2013-12-15 13:55:04

    The word jehovah means god of ruin, god of calamity, god of mischief. If the governing body really did recieve direction from God you would think they would have figured this out by now and changed the spelling of gods name to the correct one Yahweh

    • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-12-15 18:05:02

      I don't believe this is true. Yahweh is fine too, but that's not true about Jehovah.

    • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-12-15 18:30:16

      However, feel free to present any genuine evidence. Please just don't post a link to an uninformed or biased YouTube video.

    • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-12-15 20:12:07

      Actually The suffix “hovah” phonetically transliterated backwards into Hebrew carries that meaning but it would be a mistake to say that the meaning of our corrupted English word Jehovah is changed because of it. I looked at the website and it's another one of those strong-in-opinion-but-weak-in-fact.
      Another reason to separate the wheat from the chaff while surfing the net where the facts are sometimes like needles in a haystack of fiction.
      sw

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-12-15 21:54:00

        Good point. Some people have tried to make something of the fact that God spelled backwards is dog. Is it worth giving such reasoning the proverbial time of day?

        • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-12-16 12:36:21

          I once saw a bumper sticker that read: "In Dog We Trust." :)

          • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-12-16 13:02:50

            Or the dyslexic devil worshiper who sold his soul to Santa.

            • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-12-16 20:21:39

              Oh yeah, but that's because he was that agnostic insomniac who used to lay awake at night wondering if there was a doG! ha ha

              • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-12-16 20:29:50

                :) Can't top that.

Comment by Joel on 2013-12-24 06:53:45

I agree wholeheartedly and to be honest reached the same conclusion myself only recently. My default reaction in the past to avoid trouble would always be "I'm a Jehovahs Witness" and let's be fair, it can be a real protection. However, the last time I was out with work colleagues and the majority wanted to do something unsavoury, it just popped out of my mouth all by itself "I don't want to, I'm a Christian" and another guy in the group said "so am I" and convinced the rest of the group to abandon the seedy venue on my behalf. Saying I was Christian felt liberating, automatic and powerful.