Russell had many dates of prophetic significance—one even going back to the 18th Century. We’ve abandoned all of them, but one. I challenge you to find one Witness in a thousand who is aware of any of them, except for 1914. Why did we keep that one? Not because of the 2,520 years. Secular scholars agree that 587 B.C.E. is the date of the Jewish exile, so we could have easily adopted that and given ourselves 1934 at the start of Christ’s presence. Yet we gave that possibility not a moment’s thought. Why? Again, the coincidence of the Great War occurring in the very year we had publicized worldwide as the start of the Great Tribulation was too good to be passed over. Or was it a coincidence? We say NO! But why? There is nothing in our interpretation of Scripture that suggests a single big war on earth would mark the invisible enthronement of Christ. Matthew chapter 24 talks of “wars and reports of wars”. Many wars! There were only three wars reported in 1914, one famine and one earthquake. It hardly sweeps us away in the prophetic fulfillment department.
Ah, but we said the World War did fulfill prophecy connected with Christ’s enthronement in heaven. We say that it was caused by Satan who was cast out of heaven as the first action of the newly enthroned King. This angered Satan and brought woe to the earth and sea. The trouble with this interpretation is that the chronology doesn’t work. The Devil would have been cast down some time after the enthronement in October, 1914, but the War broke out in August of that year.[i] (Rev. 12:9, 12)
If 1914 had passed with nothing significant happening on the world stage, you can bet that our teaching about that year would have been quietly dropped just like 1925 and 1975 were. We’ve shown in the pages of this forum that there is no scriptural support for the idea of a 1914 commencement of Christ’s presence. So was it a coincidence; some sort of prophetic serendipity? Or is the Organizaion right? Did the Devil actually cause the war? Perhaps he did, but not for the reasons we think; not because he was angry at been cast down.[ii]
The reason we’re discussing this is to engage in a little bit of speculation. Now unlike they-who-must-be-obeyed, our speculation is just that—speculation, and nothing more. You should never believe speculation. You should merely keep it in mind if you find it plausible, ever ready for the proof that either confirms or denies it.
So here goes:
The Devil’s main purpose is the eradication of the seed. That’s clear from scripture. One of his most effective methods is to corrupt the seed. He sows “weeds among the wheat”. He is the great apostate and does whatever he can to mislead. Looking back from the middle of the 19th Century, it was evident that he’d done a pretty good job of corrupting Christianity. However, the 1800s were a time of enlightenment; of free thought and free expression. Many were looking into the Scriptures and old apostate teachings were being overturned.
One in particular who was notable for this was C.T. Russell. He actively and widely denounced that the Trinity, Hellfire, and the immortal soul teachings were false. He called people back to the Christ and promoted the idea that true worship must be free from the domination of a clergy class. He eschewed the very idea of organized religion. Organized religion was Satan’s great tool. Put men in charge and things just start to go wrong. Freedom of thought? Unrestricted investigation into God’s word? All this was anathema to the Prince of Darkness. What could he do? Satan doesn’t have new tricks. Just old ones that are tried and true and very reliable. After observing imperfect humans for close on six millennia, he knew just how to exploit our weaknesses.
Russell, like many of his time, had a penchant for numerology. It appears that Barbour, an Millerite (Adventist) set him down that path. The thought of decoding the supposedly hidden secrets of the Scriptures was too enticing to resist. Russell eventually dove into Egyptology and drew chronological calculations from measurements of the great pyramid of Giza. In most other ways he was an outstanding example of a disciple of Christ, but he failed to heed the Bible injunction against trying to know the times and the seasons that the Father has put in his own jurisdiction. (Acts 1:6,7) There’s no getting past it. You just can’t ignore any of the counsel of God, not matter how good your intentions, and expect to come away unscathed.
This fascination with numbers must have seemed to Satan like the perfect weapon to use against us. Here was the great manipulator faced with a community of Christians gradually returning to the teachings of Christ and freeing themselves from bondage to false religion. Remember, once the number of the seed is filled, Satan’s time is up. (Rev. 6:11) Talk about your great anger at having a short time.
The Bible students were coming up on the last and most important of all their date calculations. Having nailed their colors to the mast, should it fail, they would come away with their tail between their legs. (Forgive the mixed metaphor, but I’m only human.) A humbled Christian is a teachable Christian. It would have been hard for us, but we’d have been much better for it. However, if he could make us think we’d got it right, he would essentially be enabling us. Like the gambler who is about to quit for good because he’s lost almost everything, but whose last bet scores big time, we would just be emboldened by success.
The Devil didn’t have to guess. He knew the year we were predicting as the start of the great tribulation. What could be better than to give us a ‘war to end all wars’. The biggest war there ever was. He’d have to work at it. He doesn’t control the governments like some mad dictator. No, he can only influence and manipulate, but he’s really very good at doing that. He’s had thousands of years of practice. The events that produced the First World War were years in the making. There is an excellent book called The Guns of August that details the buildup. Sometimes on the most trivial of events the course of the 20th Century changed. An astonishing series of mishaps chained together involving the flight of the German warship, the Goeben. Change a single one of them and the course of world history would have been drastically altered. What befell that vessel was responsible for bringing Turkey into the war, dragging with it, Bulgaria, Rumania, Italy, and Greece. This caused exports and imports to virtually cease in Russia, contributing in great measure to the 1917 revolution with all its consequences. It resulted in the demise of the Ottoman empire and resulted in the subsequent history of the Middle East which plagues us to this day. Blind chance, or master manipulation? Evolution or intelligent design?
You be the judge. The fact is that the war gave us a reason to believe we had got it right. Of course, the great tribulation didn’t come in that year. But it’s easier to say we got it right but misread the true nature of the fulfillment than to admit there never was any fulfillment at all.
Emboldened by our success, Rutherford—no shrinking violet himself when it came to prophetic interpretations based on numerology—chose to preach in 1918 that by the middle of the next decade, the great tribulation would end.[iii] 1925 was to be the year that the ancient worthies—men like Abraham, Job, and David—would return to life to rule. “Millions now living will never die!” became the battle cry. There was ample reason to be bold. We’d got 1914 right, after all. Okay, so 1925 failed. But we still had 1914, so onward and upward!
What a coup this was for the Devil. He sidetracked us into putting our trust in the calculations of men. Rutherford took the helm and the loose association of Christian congregations under Russell was brought into a tight Organization where truth was channelled by one person and eventually one tiny group of men—just like every other organized religion. Rutherford used his power to lead us further astray by the belief we were not sons of God, but merely friends. It was the “children of God” that the Devil was afraid of. They comprise the seed and the seed will crush him in the head. (Gen. 3:15) He is at war with the seed. (Rev. 12:17) He’d love to make them disappear altogether.
The belief that 1914 is set in bedrock has enabled our human leaders to tie other prophecies to that year, key of which is the supposed appointment of a slave class to leads Jehovah’s people as his one appointed channel of communication. Disagreement with them on any grounds is dealt with most harshly: utter cutting off from all family and friends.
And now here we are, one hundred years later, still clinging tenaciously to a failed doctrine, twisting scriptures like Mat. 24:34 to fit with our increasingly frail theology.
All of this was made possible by the timely occurrence of the First World War. It missed absolute precision by only two months, but then, Satan doesn’t have absolute control. Still, that slight miss was ignored by those eager to find support for their prognostications.
Just think what might have happened if the War had not come for another five or ten years. Perhaps by then we would have given up on this unhealthy love of numbers and consolidated in the true faith.
“If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.”
[i] Lately we’ve backed quietly away from this teaching because of this fact. Not only did the war break out two months before the supposed heavenly enthronement, but it hardly sprung out of nothingness. The nations had been making preparations for war for over a decade. That would mean the Devil’s anger predated his ousting by at least ten years. We used to argue that the Devil started it early to confuse the issue, but besides being a lame argument, it ignores the fact that the Devil would have had to know ahead of time the day and hour of Christ’s enthronement and presence. How could the Devil be privy to information that Jehovah’s loyal servants didn’t know. Would this not be a failure of the fulfillment of Amos 3:7? Recall that we thought the presence began in 1874 and it wasn’t until 1929 that we began to teach 1914 as the start of his presence.
[ii] The actual year of the Devil’s oust from heaven cannot be known with certainty at the present time. There is a basis for thinking it occurred in the first century, but an argument can also be made for a future fulfillment. Whatever the case, there is no evidence supporting 1914 as the year it happened.
[iii] We didn’t abandon the idea that the great tribulation started in 1914 until the international assemblies of 1969.
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Comment by A searcher for truth on 2013-11-14 22:56:17
Luke 10
18 And He said to them, I saw Satan falling out of Heaven as lightning! [LITV]
What did Jesus mean by this statement to his disciples?
Was this something in the present or the future, or even in the past?Reply by Observer17 on 2013-11-16 04:37:16
Searcher,
Excellent question!
It ties right in with what Meleti said above:
"The actual year of the Devil’s oust from heaven cannot be known with certainty at the present time. There is a basis for thinking it occurred in the first century, but an argument can also be made for a future fulfillment..."
Observer17Reply by GodWORDISTRUTH on 2016-11-26 06:31:04
This article I believe is a great foundation to re teach the generation teaching....
Very RICH Article...change a few dates around and this is good source
Comment by Observer17 on 2013-11-15 04:17:01
Hi Meleti,
You asked above:
"Why do we hold on to 1914 so tenaciously?..."
World renown Scientist Carl Sagan (1934-1996), makes the following observation about this particular teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses:
Link to comment on net:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081123094142AA86Hw9
What religion is Carl Sagan describing in the following quote from his book "Broca's Brain"?
Curious Jorge asked 5 years ago
The quote can be found on pages 332-333 and is as follows:
"Doctrines that make no predictions are less compelling than those which make correct predictions; they are in turn more successful than doctrines that make false predictions.
But not always. ONE PROMINENT AMERICAN RELIGION confidently predicted that the world would end in 1914. Well, 1914 has come and gone, and -- while the events of that year were certainly of some importance -- the world does not, at least so far as I can see, seem to have ended. There are at least three responses that an organized religion can make in the face of such a failed and fundamental prophecy. They could have said, "Oh, did we say '1914'? So sorry, we meant '2014.' A slight error in calculation. Hope you weren't inconvenienced in any way." But they did not. They could have said, "Well, the world would have ended, except we prayed very hard and interceded with God so He spared the Earth." But they did not. Instead, they did something much more ingenious.
They announced that the world had in fact ended in 1914, and if the rest of us hadn't noticed, that was our lookout. It is astonishing in the face of such transparent evasions that this religion has any adherents at all. But religions are tough. Either they make no contentions which are subject to disproof or they quickly redesign doctrine after disproof. The fact that religions can be so shamelessly dishonest, so contemptuous of the intelligence of their adherents, and still flourish does not speak very well for the tough-mindedness of the believers. But it does indicate, if a demonstration were needed, that near the core of the religious experience is something remarkably resistant to rational inquiry."
End of quote.
Wonder what "American religion" was he referring to?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
Observer17Reply by on 2013-11-15 06:15:19
Another great article. I encountered a similar reasoning on www. e-watchman.com, trying to argue that the hurling Satan down to earth is still future event and the world war 1 was maneuvered by Satan to deceit God's people. I think that's possible. Realizing that teaching about 1914 is false, is causing very mix feelings in me, though. I can't figure out how I can conduct Bible study with our "What Does the Bible Teach" book and avoid this and many other disputable subjects. I can't do that and that made me to hand some studies over to somebody else. Can't say I feel great about it, but can't make disciples in WT style any more. If anybody has any suggestions feel free to share them. I'd like to thanks again for your time spent writing this articles and encouraging others to cling close to our God and our Lord and King Christ .
Reply by menrov on 2014-03-03 10:34:30
Hi Anonymous, I am with you, I have realized that the foundation of my beliefs is broken which makes it very hard to continue to tell people to become a JW. Glad to be able o share this.
Reply by Out of Africa on 2015-10-30 22:59:07
Dear Anonymous
I have a number of bible studies, but as far as I am concerned, they are MY bible studies and they want to study the bible not JW doctrine and I have a responsibility to help them. I am still doing the bible teach book but have started to skip certain paragraphs and appendixes that I know are wrong. I have told them that the bible teach book is merely a guide and can be erroneous, and that only the bible is truth. As I formulate a better understanding of the truth, I will incorporate this in our studies. Fortunately I only have 1 study that is attending the meetings so it is more difficult with her. She goes to another language congregation and is not very educated so I am sure she isn't following the finer points.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-15 09:10:49
Thanks for sharing that Sagan quote. I'm sure that had I read it a year or two ago, I would have found some way to discount it, so sure was I of the rightness of our cause. This is the problem in putting trust in men. As I said in the article--and I'm applying this to me specifically--one can't ignore a Bible principle and come away unscathed. The principle is found at Ps. 146:3 and we as JWs think that the Governing Body is the exception to the rule, when in fact, there is no exception to the rule. Even Jesus had to die and leave off being human for him to provide salvation and to rule.
The thing is that once the blinders are off, the mind expands. So much is tied to 1914 in our theology. With that gone, everything is up for questioning. It is actually quite exciting. We are like people told that the world is flat and we cannot explore too far for fear we'll fall off the edge. Now we know it is round and we have so much to explore. We want to share this with our friends, but they're still deep in flat-world indoctrination and if we're not careful, they'll beat us. So we have to hold in our happiness waiting for the right moment.Reply by Chris on 2013-11-15 10:50:45
Yes your right, it is quite exciting......and bemusing as we watch things unfold.
When I think how long I considered Christendom to be the dragnet and that we were no longer part of false religion, only to realize that we are in fact part of the dragnet, and the separation of the wheat is a much more specific angelic undertaking than we previously thought.
As the old saying goes "The Lord moves in mysterious ways"
Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-11-15 12:31:05
In line with the Sagan quote, Leon Festinger's "When Prophecy Fails" is a fascinating and worthwhile read for those who haven't yet done so. It's not about JW's, but it is impossible to read it and not see the psychological parallels at work.
ApollosReply by anderestimme on 2013-11-19 18:19:05
"When Prophecy Fails and Faith Persists: A Theoretical Overview" by Lorne L. Dawson is a very interesting analysis of how religious groups deal with failed predictions. The pdf is easy to find on line.
Comment by A. on 2013-11-15 12:53:46
Hi all,
I'm not in the congregation currently, but over the past year I have done some very deep exploration on JW origins, doctrine and the like. It is so wonderful knowing that I am not alone in my findings. You all touch upon many of the ideas that I had discovered for myself. Your site is a great resource for awakening witnesses, as it does not contain any of the bias or the hate that is found on other sites. I know that Jehovah is using you all as a light in a very dark place.
I'm sure that you have already guessed this from the number of responses to your blog, but there is a great awakening going on in the congregation. I am astounded, and delighted it is happening. I have been sharing your blog with a friend and hope to do so with many more in the future. I truly appreciate your exploration of the 1914 doctrine which has been so deeply rooted in the Jehovah Witness religion. Please continue exploring this so that those searching are exposed to other ideas that have actual Biblical support.
I know that this comment may be a bit out of place, but I sincerely wanted to express my great respect for the work you all are doing on this site in the name of Jehovah and Jesus.
Your Sister in Christ.Reply by kev c on 2013-11-16 06:06:58
Yes that's why I lke this site. All I wanted to know right from the start of my bible study with the witnesses was the real truth of the bible. I told them that. I know now that what I have been taught contains a bias. But there's no way that I want to listen now to bias the other way because of bitternes. The only motive I have is that I still just want to know what the real truth is.
Comment by kev c on 2013-11-15 16:11:58
I remember doin the talk many times is it time for god to rule the world. Two lines of evidence the numerology and the circumstantial. The cicumstantial was always more convincing to me. Than starting at 607. Adding 7 times extracted from daniel 4. And revelation. 12. And arriving at 1914. I always thought we were stretching it. Revelation 11 v 15 at the end used to make me feel really uncomfortable. The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our god and his christ and he will rule forever. From that perspective 1914 didn't seem to make much sense. In the end I refused to give the talk. Its eay to see things that aren't there in the bible and even to misinterprate world events. It was amazing to hear people talk about 9. ' 11. And more recently the global credit crunch. And try and to apply them to some apocalyptic prophecy
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-15 16:29:01
Isn't that really the gist of Jesus' words at Mat. 24:4-6?
“Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet."?
He was aware that the human tendency would be to see signs in catastrophic events, and he was telling us not to because the events that would indicate his presence would be unmistakable and unique.
JWs have been calamity howlers, seeing signs where not were intended. Sadly, this has resulted in much embarrassment and disappointment.Reply by kev c on 2013-11-16 05:53:09
Oh by the way thanks for your comments on the ressurection I found them to be very helpful. I think some of us have a hard time sometimes trying to work out what the real truth is but when we hear it. Do recognise it as such hebrews 5 v 14. We might actually be seeing a fullfilment of ephesians 4 on this site about the role of teachers in the congregation. Thanks again meleti.
Comment by emilyjeff on 2013-11-15 18:04:18
Observer17 I like the quote from Carl Sagan and here’s another one that speaks to me. It is from his book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark.
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
I do understand how hard it is to give up the illusion when one has invested so much of oneself in it. It’s a very painful experience and no one is immune to the con.
Comment by SilverTop on 2013-11-15 19:57:24
Well this is just amazing! I've always wondered about the 1914 doctrine, and the tie-in with the generation. I am totally confused with the "overlapping" generation, and I give up on trying to understand if there is or is not a faithful and discreet slave or if there is one, is it one person or a group of persons?!? :(? I remember taking a philosophy class several years ago. I don't remember the name of the philosopher or his particular story, but it was a tale about a dweller in a cave who was given opportunity to walk about in the sunshine and upon returning to the 'dwellers in a dark cave" he was ridiculed, and called a heretic for telling his "brothers' about the bright sunshine and blue skies. This makes me think about the WTBTS and how they refuse to "open that cave door and come out into the sunshine...
Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2013-11-16 01:19:45
On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees “The party has just begun!” The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th.
After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude considering they were threatened, abused, and feared for their lives for over five days. In their media interviews, it was clear that they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages had begun to feel the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had “bonded” emotionally with their captors.
While “Love and Stockholm Syndrome:The Mystery of Loving an Abuser” is a sociological study of how victims bond with their abusers, the psychologically dissonant symptoms are the same for those trapped in abusively manipulative religious groups similar to that found in Leon Festinger, Henry W. Riecken, and Stanley Schachter’s classic study, “When Prophecy Fails,” which Apollos quoted previously.
Comment by kev c on 2013-11-16 04:01:00
Haven't read any of these books but I have read about robert J liftons. Mind control techniques. That's a very interesting study
Comment by peely on 2013-11-17 11:37:05
Meleti, you said: The Devil’s main purpose is the eradication of the seed. That’s clear from scripture. One of his most effective methods is to corrupt the seed.
That statement, as blatantly correct as it is, is far from obvious to the Witness masses. Satan's only enemy is the woman's seed, thus setting up a military "ruse", a decoy, a counter fulfillment (1914) is his favorite tactic. Bait lies with a few truths and hauling in the humble ones becomes a cinch. 2 Cor. 11:14
This is the sad, sad, state of affairs as the GB has snuffed out the faithful anointed ones from any visual stand among congregations.
Satan's throne? A scary thought -
Rev 2:13 - I know that you live where Satan has his throne. But you have kept true to my name. Right there where Satan lives, my faithful witness Antipas was taken from you and put to death. Even then you did not give up your faith in me.
Rev 2:20 - But I still have something against you because of that woman Jezebel. She calls herself a prophet, and you let her teach and mislead my servants to do immoral things and to eat food offered to idols.
Psalm 94:20,21 - Shall the throne of iniquity, which devises evil by law,
Have fellowship with You? They gather together against the life of the righteous,
And condemn innocent blood.
We can't even begin to make sense of Satan's power, his abilities and his deception, or follow him around the earth sizing up each and every situation saying, Ahh that is the work of Satan! We can, though, be aware of his use of treachery and beguilement against the faithful ones; and place our sites on our true leader...and only Him. Col 1:18Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-17 15:51:21
Well said! We place both our sights and our "sites" on the true leader...
;)
MeletiReply by peely on 2013-11-17 17:26:45
I saw that after I posted, but figured it could work!
Comment by Jamaican JW on 2013-11-17 21:00:14
Greetings Meleti,
You asked, "Why do we hold on to 1914 so tenaciously?"
Could it be our mistaken perception of Daniel 7:13, 14 and what it is talking about actually?
Any thoughts?
Jamaican JWReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-17 23:44:03
Actually, it was a rhetorical question. :)
Reply by Jamaican JW on 2013-11-21 10:39:28
Hi Meleti, :)
Just wondering if you or Apollos have written anything kept in the archives of this site, covering the possible meaning of Daniel 7:13, 14 which says:
13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man+ was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days,+ and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+ -- New World Translation 2013
Most inquiring brothers & sisters coming to this site, would want to know about this prophecy, since they believe this happened in 1914. But, if they begin to discover the teaching of 1914 is wrong, then they would like to know more about this prophecy and how it can be explained.
Thanks,
Jamaican JWReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-21 10:47:59
I don't believe we have discussed it explicitly, but there are many things in the basket which have yet to be brought out for discussion. With the demise of the 1914 doctrine, there are so many prophetic scriptures that deserve a fresh, unbiased look. Our problem is lack of time due to the need to keep food of the physical kind on the table.
Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-11-21 12:21:58
Hi JJW,
When you ask about the explanation of this prophecy I assume you are purely referring to the timing of its fulfillment, as I would think the rest of it is beyond dispute.
We can start by making an observation about the chronology in relation to 1914. If we go with the official doctrine for now, then the small horn represents the Anglo-American world power, which is a part of the beast that is completely destroyed in the preceding verses.
Since this has not yet taken place then we must either accept that vs 13 & 14 were not fulfilled in 1914, or accept that this portion of the passage is not chronological in relation to the rest of the text. If it is the latter then there is no particular reason to fix the events at 1914 either. We must turn then to the full body of scripture on the subject of Christ's kingship and parousia, a topic which you will find discussed extensively in the archives of this site.
Apollos
Comment by peely on 2013-11-17 21:18:17
Just came across this considering 1914, "birth pains or pains of distress";a long dissertation but a clear and simple way to disprove 1914 as the birth of the Kingdom.
http://thekingdomwasnotbornin1914.blogspot.com.au/Reply by A searcher for truth on 2013-11-17 22:18:49
Yes, I do agree with the writer that the Kingdom of God is born through a process of birth pangs, but disagree with the writer as to what the "Kingdom of God" actually is.
As to the site that has been posted. http://thekingdomwasnotbornin1914.blogspot.com.au/
Yet Jesus over and over again told his disciples of what the "Kingdom of God" is and yet apparently they still did not get it and neither do many get it today.
The Kingdom of God, is not a Government. It is a constitution, a "way" of life.
That is why the early Christians were known as the "Way" because it was a way of life as Jesus had taught from the "Kingdom of the Heavens".
Jesus was advocating that we all can be "sons of God", "sons of the Kingdom", and a "brotherhood" here on earth of all mankind, and part of a "universal brotherhood" of all of God's intelligent creatures as well who are also "God's children".
But this concept will be born through a difficult process because of very difficult times as many people start to awaken to the falsehoods that have been perpetrated by the world's elite, both religious, and secular.
The Kingdom of God did get it's start in Jesus time here on earth, because he did state that the Kingdom of God was now in their midst, but the birthing and realization of the Kingdom has been a slow process over nearly 2000 years, but just as a mother goes through a long labor and suddenly the child comes forth, I believe the same will be for the reality of the "Kingdom of God".
This is of course from my perspective and understanding of things, for what it is worth.
Comment by Observer17 on 2013-11-18 16:57:15
When we refer to Satan's great "Con" game, we are always reminded of something. God's Word tells us we must all "conquer" Satan ... less he "conquer" us. (1 Peter 5:8)
Because there is no middle ground for Christians when fighting this wicked person. When dealing with him, we cannot be idle. We must always vigorously "oppose him" to maintain our Christian standing, and our Christian Ministry. (Romans 11:13; James 4:7)
I think Revelation 12:11 provides vital encouragement we need at critical times like these, by saying:
"And they conquered him [Satan] because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death."
I believe the above verse gives us the formula for defeating Satan. It tells us:
1) the blood of the Lamb is necessary
2) the word of our witnessing
3) and we do not "love our souls even in the face of death" like Jesus.
In taking such a stance, I am reminded of someone in ancient history, that had to stand alone, so as to oppose the oppressive tyranny of the Pope and the Catholic Church of years gone by.
His name was Martin Luther.
Link to article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther
History tells us,
Martin Luther (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) was a German monk, Catholic priest, professor of theology and seminal figure of a reform movement in 16th century Christianity, subsequently known as the Protestant Reformation.[1] He strongly disputed the claim that freedom from God's punishment for sin could be purchased with money. He confronted indulgence salesman Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar, with his Ninety-Five Theses in 1517. His refusal to retract all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms in 1521 resulted in his excommunication by the Pope and condemnation as an outlaw by the Emperor.
Luther taught that salvation and subsequently eternity in heaven is not earned by good deeds but is received only as a free gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin and subsequently eternity in hell. His theology challenged the authority of the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge from God[2] and opposed sacerdotalism by considering all baptized Christians to be a holy priesthood.[3] Those who identify with these, and all of Luther's wider teachings, are called Lutherans.
His translation of the Bible into the vernacular (instead of Latin) made it more accessible, which had a tremendous impact on the church and on German culture. It fostered the development of a standard version of the German language, added several principles to the art of translation,[4] and influenced the writing of an English translation, the King James Bible.[5] His hymns influenced the development of singing in churches.[6] His marriage to Katharina von Bora set a model for the practice of clerical marriage, allowing Protestant priests to marry.[7] ...
End of quote.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I ask, do we not see something similar (to Martin Luther's actions) occurring here, as we openly "protest" the tyranny of the oppressive Watchtower Society?
Aren't we beginning to see Rev. 11:8 in a totally different light nowadays, showing not only Christendom/Catholics [opposed by Martin Luther in his day] being so oppressive like ancient, enslaving "Egypt," also being like spiritually filthy "Sodom," and murderous "Jerusalem" who "impaled" Jesus, making him the great "martyr" for truth. Doesn't Rev. 11:8 now, sound a awful lot like someone else, we know, oh so well?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
Observer17Reply by kev c on 2013-11-19 03:42:58
Yes I think that's a good point observer 17 so its not just a case of going from door to door the import of these verses imply a willingness to tenaciously confess faith in jesus and what he taught as truth despite terrible persecution hurled at us from others. Its interesting that this usually comes from established organised religion. As it did in the first century when the disciples said we must obey god as ruler rather than men. Thanks again.
Reply by Observer17 on 2013-11-19 13:49:27
Hi Key,
Precisely! :)
Just as you said, "We must obey God as Ruler, rather than men" when it comes to whether "truth" is taught to the brotherhood of Christ-like followers. (Acts 5:29)
Jesus said:
"... For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice." (John 18:37)
Paul told Christians at Corinth, we must obey "truth" at all cost. The fight for "truth" is primary mission, in following Jesus. At 2 Cor. 10:5 Paul states:
"For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD; and we are bringing EVERY THOUGHT into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ."
We must oppose "every thought," every teaching that is "raised up" against the Sacred Knowledge of God. This is the fight, for all followers of Christ. In this way, we oppose the Devil, the Great "Con" Artist. Skillful use of the Holy Writings, God's Word, help us do this. (2 Tim. 2:15; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17)
The [true] "knowledge of God" is what we all want. Isn't that what Daniel said was going to go world wide one day, during "the time of the end" and many would "rove about" and bask in this light of truth when it becomes "abundant"? (Daniel 12:4)
Which means, when it comes to the preservation of the Christian congregation itself, then all falsehood and false teachings must not be tolerated. They must be challenged, as we are doing here. False teachings or "leaven" cannot be allowed to sneakily be "introduced" to the "sheep" as acceptable "food," without resistance from qualified shepherds of the flock. Else the congregation will become polluted, contaminated. Jesus taught "hypocrisy" and false doctrine are from the Devil, the big "Con" artist as Meleti called him above. Jesus said it was like "leaven" that could "ferment the whole lump" or congregation. It could render ones worship to God, to be "in vain." (Matt. 15:9; Matt. 16:12; 1 Cor. 5:6)
In 1 Cor. 5:8, Paul contrasts the leaven of "badness and wickedness" infiltrating the congregation with that which all Christians should strive for in their worship namely, "sincerity and truth." And "sincerity and truth," is what I see sadly lacking in the sacred service of the Watchtower Society and company. Take for example this recent "overlapping generation" teaching. One would have to question the "sincerity" of those who would propose such an unholy idea to the congregation, and cause the brothers to take this ridiculous "doctrine" from door-to-door and teach it to sincere persons of interest and bible studies, passing this off as "food at the proper time," from the so-called "Faithful Slave."
If we tried to teach it, and they told us what we taught was "stupid," could we blame them?
Seems to me, we are beginning to see a stark contrast in viewpoint developing between the expressed wishes of the Headquarters Staff of New York and a now, slowly awakening rank and file Jehovah's Witness in many congregations around the earth. And, I'm not so sure how many brothers are going to take this type of "teaching," quietly lying down, without a whimper of complaint.
My two cents.
And thanks for your comment, Key. :)
Observer17Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-19 15:58:51
Why do they need Obedience ? Why do they even want it ?? What right do they have to even ask that of Servants of Jehovah? Why is questioning their teachings in my heart tantmount to "testing Jehovah" in my heart? I am really struggling to grasp this. Why is Jehovah allowing this ? Or is he ?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-19 16:44:51
A valid question. Israel was Jehovah's nation, typified by Jerusalem--his pre-Christian organization, if you will. It went apostate, and he allowed it to happen to test them. He destroyed his nation, Jerusalem, in 70 C.E., but prior to that He had permitted deviation and tolerated for a long time "vessels of wrath" so that he could "make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy". Christendom, which includes Jehovah's Witnesses--though they would be loathe to admit it--is the antitypical Jerusalem. He is still tolerating vessels of wrath so that he can again "make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy". (Rom. 9:22)
We have been taught to differentiate between ourselves and Christendom, indoctrinated to believe that we, and we alone, are Jehovah's people. But the facts belie that teaching, because if we were, then we would be free from false teaching and more significantly, free from the rulership of men which typifies every form of false religion there is. In that one aspect, they are all the same.
What we have to concern ourselves with is being the right type of vessel, one that will contain mercy, and not wrath.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-19 17:17:33
Acts 5:29 would seem to be all that one would need to counter any argument requiring absolute and unquestioning obedience to the powers-that-be. However, I wonder what the reaction would be were you to use it in that context. I would hazard to guess that the elders would consider that verse to apply to the world. They would view the Governing Body as excluded from it because they hold that the Governing Body is God's appointed channel of communication.
There is a odd disconnect in the minds of many witnesses in this regard. If the Governing Body speaks under inspiration then they speak for God and we can apply Acts 5:29 and "obey God as ruler rather than men". If they do not speak under inspiration, then they speak as men and we can still obey them as long as what they teach doesn't conflict with what God says.
The disconnect comes because they want us to obey them as God's appointed, albeit not inspired, channel of communication. So they have the equivalency of God, and thus, Acts 5:29 doesn't apply to them, yet they will not accept the responsibility that goes with "speaking for God", since they admit to making mistakes, but that's okay and we just have to accept that.
I'm not a lover of the current overuse of initials in lieu of words (what are often, but erroneously called acronyms) because they usually obfuscate meaning. I prefer a true acronym like awol or snafu as it enriches the language by adding meaning.
The current position of the Governing Body is that we must believe what we are taught as if from God until they tell us otherwise. Until they change it, it is as good as God's word. Therefore, we can term these as Believe Until Told Otherwise doctrines, or--wait for it--BUTO doctrines. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Give it some time, and if it catches on, we can drop the caps.
We will continue to examine the scriptural basis for BUTO doctrines on this site.Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-11-19 19:59:02
I'm not so sure about the "nice ring". I'm feeling I've been BUTOed a few times too many :)
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-11-20 02:06:14
Yes and I think we still need to be respectful. The overuse of acronyms can easily deteriorate into disrespectful hate-mongering. We know that the Governing Body has sown its own exclusive truth falsely, and it is they who must answer for it, not us. But if we make it our religion to attack their religion, then we are no better. Since it is they who have fostered the exclusivity of truth upon themselves, it is up to them to reprove themselves before the spirit of both God and Christ comes upon them for their hypocrisy in this, lest we forget that we too were once misguided by the same flawed enthusiasm for which we may yet answer.
I can only say this. There is nothing exclusive to us except the wisdom given to the modest ones. It is this wisdom that dictates to all who wish to please God to be cautious as serpents yet innocent as doves, a tightrope indeed that few are willing to walk, but walk we must to please our master, Christ just as he pleased his Father. So if we truly have the mind of Christ, we will follow in his footsteps in wisdom and modesty.
It takes good moderation to maintain balance in this website, so keep up the good work Meleti and Apollos!.
Reply by anderestimme on 2013-11-20 11:28:56
Well, I suppose it's better than Believe Until Told To Stop. Now there's an acronym that could "easily deteriorate into disrespectful hate-mongering"! Thanks SM1 for a much-appreciated call to modesty and balanced perspective.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-20 11:32:59
Looks like a dodged a bullet there. :)
Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2013-11-20 20:23:48
Nice thoughts guys. Meleti I find myself lately reading accounts and meditating on the actions of Apostate Israel. I'm sure those who were appalled by the apostasy were also very discouraged. I wish it was as easy as seeing idols in the Kingdom Hall ,child sacrifice, false prophets deliberately prophesying falsely etc. I pray to Jehovah that like Paul/Saul the scales on my eyes continue to fall off as I learn the true nature of my relationship with God as His child.
The thing is..... I KNOW that they must get tons of letters regarding doctrines such as 1914....From what I've seen from their replies they are very dismissive. They are quick to uphold whatever the teaching is at the time and never concede or even acknowledge any points that they may agree with the writer. Their letters seem to have a tone of authority and with the goal of correction. They are not interested in a healthy conversation about the Bible.
Just an observation....Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-20 20:30:39
And a most accurate observation it is, GodsWordIsTruth. The letters in reply will ignore questions that they cannot answer, restate the official position and often counsel the writer against presuming to write in again with his/her own ideas.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-24 01:49:56
Just a thought...Even during the time Jesus was on the earth...The jews were faced with false teachings. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection and from my Recent( but incomplete) research and study of the Pharisees they had a very interesting set of beliefs ...they claimed Mosaic authority for their interpretation of Jewish laws...Yet Jesus told his disciples essentially to do as they say and not as they do. I'm sure our Lord did not mean for them to uphold teachings they knew to be false. Jesus did occasionally expose their unreasoning hearts with they tried to trap him. He could have surely exposed all of their false teachings and set matters straight right then and there if he wanted to....
Comment by SilverTop on 2013-11-19 15:17:04
Seems to me like there is a great dividing about to come about. Between those of us who are really seeking to understand the Bible and serve Jehovah God in an acceptable way and a group of false witnesses who are serving the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. It makes me wonder now why there are so many 'inactive' ones. Its not that they don't love Jehovah, they just can't stand the flip-flops, the inconsistencies and the sometimes outright unfairness and heavy-handedness of the brothers. Agape!
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-19 15:54:02
That is why many of us are inactive. Yet , we are being told that the reasons that we are inactive is because of some misunderstandings on our part, Not embracing the new clarifications ( of false doctrines ...but I digress) or being bitter toward the brothers. I am inactive from depression plain and simple. I felt horrible when I see all the smiling faces at the Hall and I am not Happy at all. It is not because I am not appreciative of Jehovah and all he's done ( althought the WT's imply that someone like me is not ) I just don't appreciate being taught falsehoods and being beat into submission . It weighs on you after a while.
Reply by Chris on 2013-11-20 02:00:10
Amen to that Brother
The truly sad thing is the damage that these false teachings can do, and the way that acceptance of them is often enforced. I personally knew a brother who had suffered with constant illness for years and longed for the 'New System" to come based on the WTS insistence that the end was close. When the society adjusted its version of the generation in 1995 he could no longer accept the constant nagging doubts he had. Coupled with this he was hounded by a couple of elders who believed his constant sickness was related to a guilty conscience. In the end his marriage broke up & he committed suicide. I couldn't help think of Job's false comforters when he was relating the discussions that he had with one particular elder, who was nothing short of a spiritual bully. I often wonder when Jesus described those oppressed by the Pharisees as "skinned and thrown about" if it could be a sign of our times also.
There are many fine, noble and kind elders in the congregations but there are also many 'company' men who delight in enforcing the will of their masters in Brooklyn.
Our so-called "spiritual paradise" is full of plastic plants. The 'growth' we are constantly told about is an illusion based on propaganda and carefully placed information and stage props.
The only way we can stay survive the mental disconnection of truth from reality is to cling to our Master, Jesus.Reply by kev c on 2013-11-20 04:26:02
Yes chris ive seen things like that as well. Some of the elders go too far in their zeal to vehemently stick to the religious rules prescribed for us and cause untold damage to the brothers and sisters. Galatians 6 v 1. You who have the spiritual qualifications must readjust. What qualifcations is it because weve been appionted as an elder by the society. No its the spiritual qualifications mentioned in the context at galatians 5. Love kindness goodness long suffering peace. Ect. If we have these we should never fail our brothers and sisters. Its these that make a true christian and elder
Reply by kev c on 2013-11-20 03:52:58
This term inactive. Its so wrong this label how can any be an inactive christian its all based on this judgemental attitude again. They get it all wrong they have a one track mind thinking that christianity is all about banging on peoples doors. We studied matthew 5 last week let you light shine that they may see your good works and gloryfy god in heaven. What good works arent they acts of kindness motivated by the faith and love we have for others. Anyway we can do a hundred hours a month if we want. But at the end of the day its only words. And christianity is a religion of action not words. So what does it really mean to be inactive. Also no matter how many hours we do on the ministry if we are not teaching the truth what good is it. Kev
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-20 11:48:40
Great comments. I am forcing myself to sit in the hall because I have smaill children and my husband insists that I need to rely on Jehovah and give my kids the same spritual foundation that both he and I were raised with. I usually use this time to read the bible and the moment I find something worthwhile to listen to while I am there, I get easlily annoyed by something that is said that I believe to be unscriptural. Not sure how much longer I can do this. My eyes have been opened and it is very hard to shut them again ….even if I wanted too.
Reply by on 2013-11-20 14:59:58
I feel exactly same. I spend much time reading Bible during the meetings and often feel really annoyed by the WT propaganda. I still do try hard to concentrate on many positive things in the Org, but it's getting harder and harder. My wife insists that we need to rely on Jehova and I understand her point. I like our brothers and sister and I don't want to lose them. Time will tell how to solve this dilemma.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-20 15:37:15
I guess the question becomes, Rely on Jehovah for what?
Reply by GodsWordisTruth on 2013-11-20 20:38:17
Well I'm sure you have heard many JW's say wait on Jehovah to set matters straight.
I would like to believe that the teachings are not what soley binds The brotherhood together.... it's genuine love. If you Love Jehovah and his law you cannot be helped but be moved to love others. I'm not sure that if I left I could find this anywhere else.
However on the flip side that "love" is conditional. If you were disfellowshipped ,disassociated ,marked or branded as "weak" or express dissent about the "slave"or it's teachings you would be shunned. We are taught to break our fellowship with such ones.
Wait on Jehovah for what? Good question.
Reply by menrov on 2014-03-03 11:57:25
Hi GWIT, I am like you, I sit in the hall and basically use my time to read bibles (yes, multitude on my tablet). All verses mentioned I look up in various bibles and it becomes most interesting to see the differences. Last week during service meeting, John 17:3 was mentioned and the brother used a watchtower to explain why the ald NWT translation was so good as it stresses KNOWLEDGE. I indicated that the new 2013 release (I am Dutch and we still do not have that bible) translates this verse differently now You should have seen all the faces. One sister did not believe me and said she would investigate the greek Wescott interlinear. Point is,even as a loyal witness you cannot just pick a watchtower to explain a verse simply due to the many changes....most confusing.
Comment by gogetter60 on 2013-11-20 08:35:44
I am new here and really appreciate the calm nature of the discussions that are scriptural based.
Witness since 74 and still in the prison although mentally out of the cell, this seems like a good place for those in my situation, keep up the great post.
Comment by on 2013-11-20 11:47:01
All your words are so true. It is an interesting term, being "inactive", and all of you on this site who are deemed as such (myself included) are the true Christians, as well as you who are struggling within the confines of the organization. True light is warm and inviting, false light is harsh, unwanted, and the desire to turn it off (!) is strong. You who are seeing truth are displaying that warm light.
Consider where the sheep should go. Should we stay in the pen with those disguised wolves or find Christ's pen? (John 10:9)
Romans 16:18 - Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people.
1 Pet 4:17 - For the time has come for judgment, and it must begin with God’s household. And if judgment begins with us, what terrible fate awaits those who have never obeyed God’s Good News?
Yes, we walk the tightrope to please our Master, Christ, keeping Christian love in front of us. As we see that distinction between the those that serve God and those that do not (Mal 3:18), we have to ask ourselves how much of the false sense of "peace and security" are we willing to tolerate. Is that not a tightrope in itself - a very precarious one?
2 Cor 6:17 - Therefore, come out from among unbelievers,
and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord.
Don’t touch their filthy things,
and I will welcome you.
I can't see, dear brothers, why we should make it harder than it is.
Matt. 11:30 - For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.”
Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2013-11-21 20:40:42
Reblogged this on smolderingwickblog and commented:
There was a time I believed Jehovah’s Witnesses were the only religion unfettered by dogma. Then, you couldn’t keep my mouth shut. No more. I came into this religion with both eyes open—even correcting the poorly worded “I’m a Jehovah’s Witness” phrase with “No-no, you can’t say ‘a Jehovah’s Witness.’ That’s just plain bad English! If my father’s name is John, would I say I’m a John’s son?” (then again maybe that’s where the Johnson family came from?)?
Ever since the Watchtower changed policy in stating So and So “is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses,” I just shake my head. I recall after the first announcement was made a sister asked, “Is it now permissible to talk to him since he’s no longer?” Tough question since if “what God has yoked together” in marriage can’t be “put apart” by any man, how is it that mere men can “put apart” one’s dedication to God? Indeed it is an insidious slippery slide down this legally lubricated banister of human reasoning!
What can I say? I ran the gauntlet. I left family and friends to come here. How can I ask anyone now to do the same? And go where? Have we become so presumptuous that we that we cannot play by the rules given at the beginning? We were told to “make sure of all things” before dedicating our lives. Does not the rest of the scripture apply? Can I not “hold fast to what is fine” as I grow to maturity? Am I to be reduced to a blubbering idiot while I study with others elementary things of Christ that were never to change, yet now I’m forced to keep changing because men have risen to the top like dross?
If those leading us can see fit to correct their elementary errors, why can’t we? Are only some allowed to “press on to maturity?” Is that maturity only available to an elite group and does the spirit only flow from them through their appointment of elders who are the only ones to obey? Is my own conscience to be left so weak that it can no longer discern the difference between a spiritual or robotic response?
Somehow my brains were required to be left at the entranceway of blind faith. While I pause to check why I came, there are those who are ready to relieve me of passport and country, which might’ve been okay had I known ahead of time that the passport was illegitimate and my citizenship was never really connected to the sovereign state it had claimed. While I knew I had no citizenship in Judaism, somehow, neither do I with Christianity. I am an embarrassment. Even those born-again in Christ without Biblical knowledge have greater status. Like them I am not under the Law of Moses. But neither am I under the Law of Christ because I am without a covenant! Without country! Without nationality! Has it really come to this? Are they going to “make us mere off scouring and refuse in the midst of the peoples?” (Lamentations 3:45; 1 Corinthians 4:13)
Reply by peely on 2013-11-21 20:57:31
Physically it is not necessary to go anywhere else, but to remain stalwart for Christ in front of family and friends.
Presently, there are only two covenants, one of life, one of death. You have opened the door to the covenant of life.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-22 08:45:47
I appreciate your comments. I cringe every time I hear a disfellowshipped person read off the platform that way . They have truly inserted themselves in a personal dedication between You and Jehovah through Jesus. I don't know where I stand with what I perceive as kicking someone out of Jesus' congregation. Unrepented wrongdoers will answer to God and True Christians will recognize these ones by their fruit and treat those ones according without throwing them out to the World. I believe if they are going to reprove ones that are erring and use the account of Diophetres that silencing that one in the congregation such as private and public reproof is scriptural. Even marking the individual in my eyes is sufficient. Kicking the person out , forcing them to attend meetings in silence away from the fellowship of other fellow Christians bothers my conscience. Then you feel uncomfortable praying for your fellow brother , a recent article stated that if the disfellowshipped person “ behaves” then sitting with such ones shouldn’t be a problem ( who writes in to ask questions like this ?? smh ) They are treated liked spiritual lepers.
Reply by BeenMislead on 2013-12-24 08:35:24
Here is what it says on jw.org about shunning ...
"What of a man who is disfellowshipped but whose wife and children are still Jehovah’s Witnesses? The religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue."
http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/
===========================================
Really?
"normal family affections and dealings continue"
We are told to severely shunned them per the organizations instructions.
The website is NOT painting a honest picture of what the Watchtower has told us to do!!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-12-24 09:23:56
Thanks for pointing that page out to us. This is a good example of "spin". Spin describes a tactic most frequently associated with corrupt politics of using deception and misleading statements to "spin" a story in a way to distract people from the real truth.
Sad that we should stoop to it. This page states emphatically that we do not shun former members of our religion. The whole truth is, we do. There are two ways of leaving. One is to "drift away" as the article states. That way you might go unnoticed and are not disfellowshipped, though there are cases where the elders have sought out an individual who has ceased association with the purpose of getting him/her to commit to disassociation--a formal term which is equivalent to disfellowshipping. Still, in many cases the drifter is simply ignored. However, if you specifically ask, in writing or in person before two elders, to resign, then you are shunned exactly as if you had been disfellowshipped. The announcement made to the congregation when one is disfellowshipped uses exactly the same wording as the announcement made when one resigns.
The only difference between the drifter and the resigner is that statement. Both may continue to lead moral lives and demonstrate a sincere desire to live by the Bible's standards, yet one is not overtly shunned, while the other is not.
Reply by BeenMislead on 2013-12-24 09:25:20
Here is a example:
"What if we have a relative or a close friend who is disfellowshipped? Now our loyalty is on the line, not to that person, but to God. Jehovah is watching us to see whether we will abide by his command not to have contact with anyone who is disfellowshipped.—Read 1 Corinthians 5:11-13." - (w12 4/15, Betrayal—An Ominous Sign of the Times!, Page 12)
Does that sound like “normal family affections and dealings continue” to you?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-12-24 09:33:25
(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
If a man was a practicing fornicator, idolater, drunkard, or any of such things, then it is doubtful that the family would have normal family relations even if he were not disfellowshipped.
However, we disfellowship for a number of other things which are not scriptural. Since disfellowshipping is carried out in secret meetings where observers are explicitly prohibited from attending, the family has no way of knowing why the man was disfellowshipped. Neither does the congregation.
Paul's words are not directed to some body of elders of Corinth, but to all the Christians in all the congregations in Corinth. Each one was to pass judgment on the man (inside) and discipline him accordingly. This direction indicates that the process is public not private and is done on a personal level, not as some official and secret process by a tiny group of three.Reply by BeenMislead on 2013-12-24 11:44:53
It is important to read the context at 1 Corinthians 5:1-5.
“Actually fornication is reported among YOU, and such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain [man] has of [his] father. 2 And are YOU puffed up, and did YOU not rather mourn, in order that the man that committed this deed should be taken away from YOUR midst? 3 I for one, although absent in body but present in spirit, have certainly judged already, as if I were present, the man who has worked in such a way as this, 4 that in the name of our Lord Jesus, when YOU are gathered together, also my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 YOU hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.”
What problem was Paul addressing? He had heard through reliable sources that a brother in the congregation was in an incestuous relationship with his father’s wife. Paul was worried by the reaction of the others in the congregation. This man was allowed to remain in a good standing in the congregation even though he was practicing gross immorality. Some of the congregation may have even condoned this grave sin.
This man was an insider (a brother) in the congregation a member of good standing. He was not an outsider. An outsider (someone not a member of the cong.) that is a fornicator or greedy person does not pose a threat to the congregation as Paul says in verse
10 “not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world.”
Christians must deal with people that fit this description all the time at work, while shopping, or in other facets of our lives.
Paul is dealing with the situation of someone within the congregation. Paul tells the Corinthians that while that man is an insider (a brother) and a practicing fornication he is to be avoided. In fact they shouldn’t even eat with him. Paul finally recommends in verse 13 that the congregation remove the wicked man from among themselves.
When a person is disfellowshipped from the congregation an announcement is made “so and so is no longer a Jehovah’s Witness”.
Paul’s counsel is to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother. The person has been removed from the congregation and is no longer a brother. None of the members of the congregation consider him to be a brother and the expelled person himself does not consider himself a part of the brotherhood until possibly he would be re-instated.
Therefore, would the counsel of verse 11 be applied to him after his expulsion from the congregation?
Is he not now part of the world? Would not verse 10 now apply to him?
I don't think that organization has a balanced view of: 1 Corinthians 5: 9-13.
While I might not agree with someones lifestyle, so one might limit the amount of contact you would have just like you would any other worldly person. But I don’t agree that they should be severely shunned.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-12-24 10:15:29
I only just realized the degree of duplicity in the official statement. Those who drift away are still considered members of the congregation. The question is, "Do You Shun Former Members...?" The fact is, only those who formally resign are "former members". The rest are still visited, still considered inactive, but members, still invited to the Memorial. So we have not answered the question at all, but have deflected it. The simple and truthful answer is "Yes, we do."
Comment by Dual Fulfillment Fatigue | Beroean Pickets on 2014-01-04 18:07:31
[…] When the Black Death hit Europe, after the 100-years war, people thought the end of days had arrived. Likewise when the French Revolution broke out, people thought prophecy was being fulfilled and the end was near. We have discussed this in greater detail under the post “Wars and Reports of Wars — A Red Herring?” and “The Devil’s Great Con Job”. […]
Comment by Gerard Meerstadt on 2019-04-25 10:33:04
"[ii] The actual year of the Devil’s oust from heaven cannot be known with certainty at the present time. There is a basis for thinking it occurred in the first century, but an argument can also be made for a future fulfillment. Whatever the case, there is no evidence supporting 1914 as the year it happened."
Well, I think we should take seriously what Jesus himself reveals to us about this. In the book of Revelation, the Great tribulation takes place before the opening of the seventh seal and Satan is thrown out of heaven during the events after the opening of the seventh seal. This means he will be thrown out of heaven after the great tribulation, which has obviously not yet occurred, for it will end with the coming of Christ with the clouds of heaven, for all to see. So if we want to place his removal from heaven before the great tribulation, we'll have to come up with sound scriptural evidence that casts a new light on the revelation by Jesus himself. Without such evidence what could possibly inspire us to stray from the clear revelation?
So we might go one step further and say that this is evidence that it certainly did not happen in 1914.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2019-04-25 11:24:35
Gerard, the premise of your argument seem to be that all the events are described in chronological order in revelation. I don't see the basis for that. There are various visions and while chronological order may be present in each individual vision, I do not see the basis for concluding that the visions themselves are presented to us in chronological order.
Comment by matijevic on 2020-03-01 04:34:48
I would like to recommend this book: https://archive.org/details/treegenerationsandappointedtimes.7z