In 1935 there were over 52,000 partakers. That number dropped steadily (with the occasional hiccup) to just below 9,000 in 1986. For the next 20 years, it hovered between 8,000 and 9,000 stubbornly ignoring the death rate which for people of that age bracket should have dropped it significantly. Then in 2007 the number crept above the 9,000 mark and has been steadily climbing ever since with over 13,000 partaking last year. (It appears that some in the rank and file are ignoring the teaching of the Governing Body and engaging in a quiet revolt.) Therefore, in what I believe will be a vain effort to stifle awakening spirituality, the GB commissioned this outline.
A key statement in the 6 minute introduction segment is: “In obedience to Jesus’ command, millions in 236 lands will observe the Lord’s Evening Meal tonight.” At a casual glance this seems to be accurate, since a common meaning for the word “observe” is to keep or obey the tenets of some practice or ceremony. If someone says that they observe the Sabbath, you understand that they refrain from working on that day, not that they stand around looking at others who don’t work. Observing an annual event of any kind means doing something to demonstrate to others such an observance. What we are really saying however is that like the audience at a graduation ceremony, millions are mere spectators and actually do nothing more than “observe”.
So the foregoing sentence is teaching a falsehood, because it states that this act of quiet observance while abstaining is done in obedience to Jesus’ command. Here is Jesus’ command: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” “Keep doing this…” Doing what? Read please the context of this command at Luke 22:14-20 and see for yourself that there is no provision made for a group of non-partaking observers. Jesus never commanded his disciples to “observe” the Lord’s Evening Meal as spectators, but as participants.
Therefore a more accurate statement would be “In disobedience to Jesus’ command, millions in 236 lands will merely look on as others observe the Lord’s Evening Meal tonight.”
The remainder of the talk, with the exclusion of the passing of the emblems, deals with the promise of living forever in a paradise earth. We are reminded that we lost out on living forever because of Adam and now Christ has died so we can live forever on earth. Time is then spent to remind us how wonderful it will be to be young again, to be at peace with the animals, to see the sick healed and the dead raised.
So instead of taking time to focus on Christ; instead of holding forth the promise of being God’s children; instead of speaking about reconciliation with God; we talk about the material benefits for us.
This seems like a sales pitch. In effect, keep your eyes focused on the things of the earth and don’t be tempted to partake of the emblems.
The title of the talk was “Appreciate What Christ Has Done for You!” Together with the content, it reveals an thinly veiled agenda to get us to knuckle under and not obey Christ’s command to “keep doing this in memory” of him.
To accomplish this we engage in the time tested tactic of making a series of unsubstantiated categorical statements which the rank and file will accept unquestioningly. If you feel you may fall into that category—I certainly did for decades of my life—please reason on these excerpts from the outline.
“The Bible describes two…hopes for faithful humans.” True, the vast majority of mankind will be resurrected to life on earth, but we are not talking about them. The outline refers to “faithful humans”, ergo, Christians. I would love for the Governing Body to provide Scriptures to back up this statement. Alas, none were given in the outline. None have ever been given.
“A limited number will receive everlasting life in heaven; the vast majority will enjoy life on a paradise earth…” Again, a categorical statement for which no Scriptural proof is given. Again, we are not discussing all of mankind, but only faithful Christians.
“[We] cannot ‘decide’ to be “born again” (Joh 3:5-8)” That is not what John 3:5-8 says.
“The vast majority of those attending the Lord’s Evening Meal do not have the heavenly hope” Actually, this one is true, but not for the reason they imply. The truth is that the vast majority have been systematically trained to believe they do not have the heavenly hope. However, there is no basis for this belief in the Bible and that in short is the reason that no Bible support is ever advanced for this teaching. There is simply no Bible support to be had.
“Can you see yourself in the new world? God wants you to be there!” Here’s the thing. The talk makes the point that we cannot choose where we will end up, whether heaven or earth. I concur. It is up to Jehovah where he puts us. Therefore, why are we presuming to tell all in attendance that they are going to live on earth. Are we not contradicting ourselves?
Following this sales pitch to get us to give up any hope of a heavenly calling, we spend the final 8 minutes of the talk getting instruction on what we need to do to show appreciation.
“You must obey the rules of the household. (1 Ti 3:14,15)” The cited verse says nothing about obeying any rules. What are the rules of the household anyway? I can see that we should obey Jesus, but “the rules of the household”? Who establishes the rules of the household? It would appear it’s the very same ones responsible for this outline, which does little to honor Jesus and much to get us to disobey his direct command.
Whether or not we go to heaven or earth is up to God, but whether we obey the command to properly observe the memorial of Christ death so as to proclaim him until he comes is up to us.
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Comment by Kian Swee on 2014-04-16 20:17:09
But,Meleti,what about 1 Cor. 11:27 - 34 about partaking unworthily,etc?Should we not put on hold the "eating the loaf & drinking from the cup" until we have "approved" of ourselves by not sinning or really doing our best not to sin,etc?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-16 20:41:09
1 Cor. 11:27-34 is discussing conduct at the Lord's Evening Meal that dishonors the arrangement.
We should always strive to avoid sin and be quick to pray for forgiveness when we have sinned. Of course, we cannot avoid sin completely while we remain in our sinful state. However, once we are baptized, would we put off making disciples because of sin? Or put off obeying the command to love because of sin. Likewise for the partaking of the emblems, it is a simple act of obedience by which we declare the Christ. We partake because of our sinful state. Once we are prefect, we will no longer partake, or we will partake in a new way. (Mt. 26:29)Reply by Kian Swee on 2014-04-18 11:30:03
Thank you,Meleti,for your wonderful explanation.I used to think that only the anointed(by WTBTS definition) are qualified to partake.Anyway,people in my congregation seem sincere &,likely genuinely believe that they're doing God's work.To forgo raising a family & higher education in favor of pioneering seem to give them immense joy.I shudder to think of the unthinkable - that the Society liquidates & these sincere & honest-hearted J.W.s simply go to pieces rather than just go join another church.
Reply by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-04-17 15:58:11
Whenever you eat or drink, you could partake unworthily by not showing respect for the occasion or not having meditated and realizing what the emblems mean, eg just seeing it as an opportunity for some free "wine and crackers".
However, we are ALL unworthy, ALL sinners. Yet Jesus' grace extends to all. Those who realize they are unworthy is those who Jesus draws, not those who think they are "good enough" to take of the symbols.
Comment by KeepOnSeeking on 2014-04-16 20:27:24
I have been considering a possible motive for the Governing Body's complete minimization of Jesus: To maintain their doctrine of the literalness of the 144,000.
In my experience, and from what I have read from others on this forum, it is not possible to read the Bible exclusively without building a deep relationship with Jesus and a longing to be with him in the heavens. By stifling the role of Jesus and directing attention away from him, the Governing Body thus prevents the rank-and-file from ever having the chance to develop a relationship with Jesus.
Without knowing Christ and becoming in union with him, a JW has no difficulty at all in accepting their forced destination of paradise earth.
Of course, I may be completely wrong about this, and others may feel much differently.
Comment by on 2014-04-16 20:42:53
What did you think about the blood moon and the next two blood moons and the dates they fall on?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-17 00:17:58
We're going to be writing up an article on that, so I'll hold off answering until I can compile all the information.
Comment by erick on 2014-04-16 21:10:39
So what would be the GBs over all agenda? I've pondered this and I'm not sure. I believe that most if not all sincerely believe what they say. I think some of them if not most have a deceptively subtle sense of pride of wanting to be in control of other people's beliefs. You have to have some imbalance to believe you have been divinely appointed to tell people what they must believe. All this without any proof of divine appointment whatsoever.
This is an age old story. The kings of the middle ages claimed divine right to rule and probably believed it themselves. Popes and all manner of religious figures have also claimed divine appointment and probably also were taken in by their own lie.
I believe the GB subscribes to the theory that the end justifies the means. They believe sincerely that this is God's only org. and everyone outside of it will be destroyed. Therefore if intimidation, bending of the truth, or a white-washing of the organizations history is called for to keep the sheep in the organization then it is justified. If a few innocent publishers are steamrolled by the organization for the good of "Jehovah's organization" so be it. Instead of a means to an end the org. has become an end in and of itself. So if someone dares challenge what "God's appointed channel" says about for instance the emblems they must be silenced.
This scenario has been outplayed in human history for millennia in different ways.
Comment by Crazyguy on 2014-04-16 22:59:41
Jesus said to see the kingdom of god one must be born again, and to have everlasting life we must eat of his flesh, the bread and wine. So since the Jehovah's witnesses are told not to do either, could it be that the angel of light is in fact running this organization and how does any JW expect to see the kingdom when they do not do a couple of simple things Jesus the master tells us to do. I think these folks will be sadly surprised at their outcome.
Reply by BeenMislead on 2014-04-17 08:17:50
“It was the holy spirit that operated upon the minds of men in the early church to take certain action; but now the Lord Jesus himself has returned, is in his temple, and, acting by and through his holy angels, puts it into the mind and heart of the remnant class to take positive action and to do a certain work; and this work has been going on, especially since 1922.” (Watchtower, Sept 1st 1930, Pg. 263, Holy Spirit)
Rutherford therefore believed that the bridge between Jehovah God, Jesus, and himself was no longer the Holy Spirit as helper, but rather direction from angelic messengers.
Why he would think this unless he personally felt that he was being communicated to in such a way?
And what kind of Angel was it that would direct him to all the falsehoods he preached?
Is that same Angel directing the Organization today?
Something to think about!!Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-11-25 15:54:05
BeenMisled
It's funny... I remember be agitated at this comment awhile back. I thought it was judgemental. I just happened to come across it today...
My , My I have come full circle ;)
Comment by on 2014-04-16 23:04:13
Meliti an excellent summory, this is how ours was also, highlighting the benefits of living on the earth, what is you favourite animal was asked, and other things pertaining to life on paradise earth, Christ was hardly mentioned and for the most part all praise was given to Jehovah for sending his Son.
Erick sounds much like Orwells 1984 and communism.
Comment by on 2014-04-16 23:05:38
I would suspect that more than we realise partake at home on the quiet.
Reply by on 2014-04-19 14:47:38
I did!
Comment by Katrina on 2014-04-16 23:07:21
sorry had to fill out details again, posts seemed to be delayed and name not showing.
Comment by Sargon on 2014-04-16 23:55:48
My very religious non-JW grandmother who attended the memorial with me was very upset with the part on John 3. She believes the watchtower article the brother cited in the outline was deliberately misleading. She said it completely misrepresented her beliefs about being born again. She cited the scripture where Jesus says "no one comes to me unless the father draws him." She mentioned we become born again when we respond to the invitation to follow Jesus in spirit. John 3 says we must be born again to enter the kingdom of god. I guess that means everyone outside the 144,000 is toast.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-04-17 10:14:57
Sargon ,
I love your comments …
When you look at that scripture that way.... everyone who is not of the GB's 144,000 is toast lol. It is hard for me to reason out of the fact that anyone who willfully and knowingly subscribes to the idea that all Christians are not anointed by the spirit is sinning against it. Whether or not you believe in Rutherford’s paradise earth is irrelevant. All Christians are anointed by the spirit because…well… Jesus said so.
Comment by Nicholaus Kopernicus on 2014-04-17 05:49:15
Would it be possible to exhibit a copy of the outline?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-17 08:31:01
Unfortunately, the society would consider that to be copyright infringement and could make trouble for us. The other issue is that I'm given to understand they now tag their PDF in the meta data so as to know who originally downloaded the file. That way, they can track back to plug the leak.
Reply by anderestimme on 2014-04-17 22:41:04
If you google "2014 memorial outline", you will find it, but it will be on one of those awful ex-jw sites.
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-18 01:45:34
Isn't it strange how an entire religion can be built upon exposing the flaws of others yet cannot tolerate its own being similarly exposed? Are we really that proud? I suppose we are in for more than a mere tongue-lashing by Christ, never mind the ex-jws!
Reply by anderestimme on 2014-04-18 02:00:40
Oops, no you won't. The special talk outline is out there, but I couldn't find the memorial talk anywhere. Sorry about that.
Comment by on 2014-04-17 07:12:45
Regarding being "born again," Jesus says:
(John 3:3-5) . . .Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” . . . “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
But then he tells Nicodemus that these are "earthly things" (v.12) and links then to gaining "everlasting life" (vv. 15, 16).
(Incidentally, note that in vv. 9-11 Jesus chides Nicodemus as a teacher of Israel for not knowing "these things," things which "we" - not just Jesus - are 'bearing witness about.' By "earthly things," in contrast to "heavenly things," Jesus appears to mean something like 'basic things' in contrast with things far more difficult to comprehend.)
A good comparison for understanding how the disciples perceived what it meant to be "born again" and "born of the spirit" is in Matthew 19 with the account about the rich young ruler. This takes place roughly two or three years later than the John chapter 3 account:
In Matthew 19 the young ruler wants to know how he can "gain everlasting life” (v. 16)
In response, Jesus tells him how he can "enter into life" (v. 17) And if he follows Jesus' instructions he "will have treasure in heaven." (vv. 18-21)
Afterwards, Jesus says to his disciples: “Truly I say to you that it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the heavens. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.” (vv. 23-24)
When the disciples heard that, they were greatly astounded, saying: “Who really can be saved?” (v. 25)
Thus, taking the account as a whole, Jesus equates 'entering into life' and 'having treasure in heaven,' with 'entering the kingdom of the heavens' and 'entering the kingdom of God.' Which the disciples equate with 'being saved.'
The comparison makes it clear how badly the Society misappropriates the account about being "born again."
Bobcat
Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-17 14:41:30
Right at the beginning our speaker stated that of the 13,204 partakers in 113,823 congregations, we should only expect barely over 1 partaker per 100 congregations by the time the emblems are passed (meaning just you dare partake!) Talk about the psychological extraction of guilt!
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-17 14:59:07
When Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be born again," it was no different to what he said to the Samaritan woman at the well. Both were being prepared for the vast change coming from a national/patriarchal covenant to a spiritual one .... the spirit bringing about rebirth.
"Unless you turn around and become as young children," he said at Matthew 18:3, "you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens."
Think about how often the gospel and epistle accounts remind us to become babes to badness and full grown in powers of understanding. It's all about rebirth by the spirit . . . NOT indoctrination by the hierarchy.
sw
Reply by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-04-17 16:08:37
yeah that one was funny "1 per 100 congregations". I was thinking about that since I part-took as well during that meeting.
Reply by anderestimme on 2014-04-18 02:02:35
If you both heard that, then it must be in the outline, right? (Or do you guys go to the same congregation?) If it's in the outline, then they're definitely trying to discourage new partakers. It will be interesting to see the figures.
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-18 13:19:21
Funny he even got his math wrong . . . The calculation is only 1 in 10. (slight exaggeration, I say Watson?) ;)
Comment by Chris on 2014-04-17 15:53:12
I partook at the memorial. No one said anything. I felt so renews afterwards.
Comment by SilentSepulcher on 2014-04-17 16:14:03
I was told after our Memorial that a Seventh Day Adventist attempted to partake, only to be stopped by a brother or sister sitting next to him. My instinct was to ask whether or not it is our place to prevent someone, especially if it might be something they hold dear, but I stayed silent. I have seen students in years past fervently halted by their flustered teachers, whom I knew had drilled into their heads for weeks prior how we are to merely observe. Maybe they feel it's their responsibility to tell them why Witnesses who don't have the earthly hope do not partake, but is it right after these students have the knowledge and still choose to partake... to interfere?
Comment by Nightingale on 2014-04-17 17:59:19
Our speaker mentioned the terms "family" and "Father" (meaning God) a few times. When there is a family and a father, there are also children. I wonder why the speaker didn't mention them at all... I guess we would feel too close to God if the GB would use that term about us... but fortunately we are God's "friends"... ;)
Comment by search4truth on 2014-04-18 04:40:28
On Thursday meeting speaker highlighted how in the preface of the Year book the Gb address us rank&file as " our fellow domestic" and how this show that their are really humble. Well I don't know personally any of them so can't say and I tend to believe that some of these men are really nice humble men. But in reality I don't really feel we are equal at all . I don't feel like they are our fellow brothers. No, they act as our masters with the right to dictate and to punish anybody who dares to express different opinion. I did not publicly partake this year as I'm viewed as a rebellious by my family and others in our cong ( asking wrong questions ) and me partaking would be considered as a rebellious act . I still have to find the way to solve this dilemma.
Comment by John on 2014-04-18 10:06:28
The most frustrating part of our talk (given by a Bethelite) was when he began to explain why we don't partake. He likened it to a wedding where there is a contract between the husband and the bride. He said:
"We don't just stand up and say 'I do' as well, do we? We are not a part of their marital contract, are we?
"Partaking of the bread and the wine is a contract for the new covenant. Do you know the terms of that contract? Do you know what that contract is about? No? Then why would you agree to something, bind yourself to a contract that you don't understand?"
He came off as cocky and arrogant in his explanation.
Also, he continued to use 1 Corinthians 11 for the procedure of the Lord's Evening Meal. Taken out of context, it seems to be fine, but once you read the chapter and realize that Paul was scolding the Corinthians for how they were observing the Lord's Evening Meal improperly, it takes on a new meaning, as if the GB was subtly trying to scold us. Why not use one of the passages from the Gospels, an encouraging account where Jesus instituted the arrangement?Reply by on 2014-04-18 11:37:11
"Fred Franz, was presiding at the morning Bible text discussion (that being his week to serve as chairman). In his comments, he stated that somewere questioning the Society's position (set forth in a recent Watchtower) that Jesus Christ is the mediator only for the "anointed" ones and not for the other millions of Jehovah's Witnesses..
15 He said of such ones:"They would merge everyone together and make Jesus Christ the mediator for every Tom, Dick and Harry.""
(Page 283 "Crisis of Conscience", R. Franz)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-18 11:56:01
The real irony with our official position is that few seem to be aware of it. I've mentioned this to several elder friends of mine and without exception, all were surprised and quite sure I was wrong. Even after confirming I was right by doing their own research, they still didn't believe it and made excuses to the effect that he still was a our mediator but in a different sense.
From this it became evident to me that the rank and file have blocked this teaching out of their consciousness. It's like when a respected patriarch says something embarrassing at a family gathering that indicates he's losing it, all just choose to ignore the incident by unspoken mutual consent and pretend it never happened.
The average Jehovah's Witness believes he is one of God's sons and that Jehovah is his father and that Jesus is his mediator. The average Jehovah's Witness will not be aware that none of this is true according to our official doctrine. Even if he is aware of our official doctrine, he will have compartmentalized the information in his brain so that he can hold the two mutually exclusive beliefs without allowing either to exist in the presence of the other. It is the theological equivalent of having your cake and eating it too.Reply by KeepOnSeeking on 2014-04-18 12:11:01
This has been my experience, too.
I recently asked my mother, who is a very dedicated JW, whether or not Jesus is our mediator. She quickly answered that he is. I also asked my father what the difference is between the mediatorship of Jesus of the "anointed" and the "great crowd," and he could not furnish a definitive answer.
I agree that not many are aware of our official doctrine on the matter.
Reply by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-04-18 14:03:16
JW have the great theology of the "in a sense" ;) I'm kind of getting tired of this kind of reasoning.
Our speaker at the memorial read John 3 where it says that you have no life within you if you don't take or eat. He then said, in a sense, the other sheep commune too. IN A SENSE?? WHAAT!!! ;)
Comment by JB on 2014-04-18 12:48:04
Hello, while I was reading the article I got reminded of one of my greatest "issues" while considering any questions about the future.
My issue is that reading the Bible several conflicting doctrines about death, resurrection, paradise, even hell, can be developed.
There are many verses supporting the earthly paradise hope while even some of Jesus' parables presented a scene of "life after death" or even someone being in Hadès and in hellfire, etc Fire is actually used extensively in the Bible and with a non indoctrinated read, you can interpret anything.
The purpose and the extent of resurrection is fuzzy to me as well, are everyone to be resurrected and some to be death again for the 2nd death ? Or only good people will resurrect ? If resurrected, for an earthy life or heavenly or whatever kind of existence ?
If anyone believes an non-earthly future for humankind after death, is an Armagueddon necessary ? One detail when I was reading Luke made me doubting about Jesus' signs. In Matthew (as it was developed by Meleti on a previous article) the apostles asked about when Jerusalem would be destroyed AND the "last days". And Jesus gave an explanation, written in a way difficult to separate parts for Jerusalem and parts for future.
On the similar points in Luke, the apostles asked only about Jerusalem. Was Jesus really interested in giving signs of the "last days" ? Or were there additions in Matthew text ?
Jesus said, I came for whoever needs to repent and not for who is "sane", meaning that someone who lives upon Jesus' standards but doesn't get tempted for any idea of Christianity, is he/she fine as being a spiritually "sane" person ?
I wonder if anyone made a full picture of the Biblical message about the whole subject in full and in support with supporting verses and counter argument for verses that sound like conflicting. What is the purpose of the Armagueddon ? What state awaits humankind after its earthly existance ? For whom is the resurrection ? And where ? Things to happen ... in which order ?
For sure, I'd be interested if there is any material put together by anyone. As much as Jesus used parables exactly because he wanted his message to be easy to understand for even people who may not have receive a lot of education, I don't seem to find the same "approach" in the globality of the Bible for me to understand such fundamental matters.Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-04-18 18:05:20
Hi JB-
I'm not sure if anyone has a complete picture of the Bible enough to give you and article that encompasses all that you are asking. My firm belief is that Jesus still set matters straight in his due time. The common thread among most sects of Christianity is the belief in God, Jesus, the holy spirit and that Jesus died and is coming back.
I'm on a current train of thought and since you mentioned in your comment... What scriptures do you believe support the earth being restored to an earthly paradise? You can most certainly answer here or in the "two hopes " discussion thread on discussthetruth.com
Additionally, the basis for any discussion of the Bible among Christians is accepting the Bible as the inspired word of God.Reply by JB on 2014-04-19 04:12:57
Hi GWIT,
Thank you so much for your reply. The statement you made on the first paragraph of your reply is a satisfactory answer to me. I must admit, in my enthousiasm in digging deeper I happen to focus on a lot of "technicalities" and try to have a more detailed understanding about them, but it's true that it's a very abstract concept and probably we'd grow in understanding as the time comes. I ironically say the death is the ultimate knowledge, indeed, if in our life time we don't have this understanding, after it's completed, we'd know what the purpose is for us, or simply we wouldn't have a way to have any knowledge or understanding.
Regarding the earthly future, the immediate examples that come to my mind is, for instance, "new heavens and new earth" as per Isaiah 65:17 or the "example prayer" where Jesus prayed for God's Will to be on earth as well as in heavens. Also one of the verses I find a great comfort, Revelation 21:4 ... When I read it, it really feels like a change in earthly existance. Last point about this is just the way I feel that actually the earth is such a wonderful place, and if we imagine it without hundreds years of unwise human destruction of the planet it could have been a much better one. It gives, at least to me, a desire to enjoy it without a time limit. But of course, we don't know any other existance to our earthly one. This said, Jesus also said to the thief next to him that he would be in paradise, this day ...
I do think that there is God's message in the Bible, but indeed, I must admit I have at times trouble to understand it as is - and I wonder why an average person as me should struggle to have an understanding ...
I have to say, as I read through the Bible, I try to focus on what I can understand and take it as a basis for my beliefs and actions. Only reading the accounts on Jesus' life, the most important part for me in the Bible - I happen to have questions. Just to give an example I came across recently :
In Luke 16:19-31, reading the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, one would believe the existence of Hell and Afterlife (and all the torment that comes with it). When I read this, I was very much surprised : This sounds so unlike what Jesus taught about our Heavenly Father ... So I was thinking, did Jesus really give a parable like this ? If he did, then obviously he was supporting the existence of the hell torment idea. If it's false, why would Jesus use it in his parable, something that is not true and non existent ?
If he didn't, someone should have edited it there ... If he explained this parable as is, word by word, the Hell exists. I can't see a third option, although there may be one, I'm unable to see.
Very recently there are other questions that came to my mind : Why Jesus, similar to Moses (as it's claimed) didn't leave writings to his apostles ? He could indeed write his teachings and instruct his apostles to take this and carry as one and only teaching to be based upon. Additional witnessing through Matthew, Marc, Luke and John would still be a value to support it, but it would make a totally clear material and keep all ideas in check.
Although I may be a bit extreme in my comments, the idea came to me that it's because it would be most dangerous because the scriptures may be tweaked. I think God doesn't operate magic on papyruses but along with what we inherit from the past, directs our hearts for an understanding with open mind to get a message from what ever we dispose. If we had "Gospel according to Jesus" and if through the centuries anyone intervened to the text, this would be a very dangerous thing.
I also wonder why Jesus doesn't seem to use the name Jehovah (unless I made a gross oversight while reading the gospel accounts). Was it a annoucing tactique for the gentiles later on ? Did Jesus refer to "Father" with His name and it was "edited out" ? Or did the name Jehovah made its time to lead the Israelites towards the One and Only God and towards Jesus and then Jesus referred to One and Only God without needing a distinctive name from all the other gods ?
I do believe the Bible as a reference to find about God's purpose, although I tend to think there is God's Word WITHIN the Bible, rather than the Bible IS the God's Word ...Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-19 07:25:15
>> Why Jesus, similar to Moses (as it’s claimed) didn’t leave writings to his apostles ?
This is a very interesting question, JB. Several answers come to mind, but I think one that's worth mentioning is that by leaving his own writings, in his own hand, he would preempt the value of all other writings. The message would become more important because of the messenger.There would be a tendency to value the writings of Jesus more than those of all other writers.Reply by JB on 2014-04-19 13:48:46
Meleti, if I understand well, you mean that "letting others write about him" would be a better way for passing through the message rather than him directly writing them ? If I got it correctly, I was thinking similarly, this could be a possibility to explain it indeed.
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-04-19 07:33:34
"I do believe the Bible as a reference to find about God’s purpose, although I tend to think there is God’s Word WITHIN the Bible, rather than the Bible IS the God’s Word …"
You probably already recognized this but this is the beginning of our disagreement. I'm not sure how anyone could reason on the scriptures to help reconcile your questions if you believe that the Bible is altered .
Faith that God has the ability to be preserve His word to reach the next step beyond this life (whatever that actually is) is absolutely required to understanding the Bible. Otherwise you read the Bible with a physical eye instead of a spiritual one and find it hard to believe in the unseen.
I'm sure you can agree that asking God for his holy spirit to guide us in understanding is the first step....Reply by JB on 2014-04-19 14:25:23
GWIT, I'm in complete agreement with your last statement and actually I'm not totally in disagreement on other aspects neither.
Lately I took quite some time to read through about Jesus, both within the Bible and also different historical publications that neutrally depict the circumstances during and after Jesus' life;
What strikes me when reading the Bible is that Jesus defends the idea that one just has to have faith. Many incidents which led Jesus to heal someone seeking his help show that Jesus saw the person in question had faith in him. So I do agree that someone has to surrender him/herself to the faith. For my part, I'm moved by the words I read there, which are Jesus' statements and I can only feel respect and love for the owner of such statements.
I must admit I'm maybe taking seriously some historical facts, which seems like, even right after Jesus' life, people started going in different directions and defending different viewpoints about who Jesus was and about his qualities. Things started getting organized around various Christian movements and for sure, there have been tensions and a lot of publicity around those.
While doing this, some movements went as far as picking and chosing the scriptures that fit only their doctrines, building up "better fitting" biblical canons. This is why I felt inclined to give the example of the Luke 16 part with a life-after-death scenario in Hadès ... This parable might support the Hell idea (and some religions do support this) while I know, as imperfect and flawed I am, I would be unable to make suffer anyone, let alone my own children. Somehow, this just doesn't fit with Jesus' beliefs, a man who healed the sinners as soon as they showed a hint of their faith, and approached to the least favored people of the society, a man, infinitely better than me.
We can witness such "doctrine wars" first hand even now : Even as a Jehovah's Witness, we get our share of indoctrination. I don't know how God reacts to this, but WT did add to John 1:1 "Word was A God", which changes quite something on the meaning of the verse. There are other controversies, even within some other parts of the NWT itself alone. John 1:1 itself is a troubling enough example of how people may dare to temper with the verses.
I find this one of the culprits why we as human beings with understanding capacities, may end up so divergent about some fundamental issues, such as life and death, as and issue of reading the very same words.
As you mentioned, God does have ability to preserve His word, I'm in complete agreement of this. The question is, does God find writings as primordial as we do, and does He attach the same sacred importance to them ? Or is it something deeper, which was given by Him to all of us. God's Word made its way fine, through several faithful people, through thousands of years before a first line was written.
My reply doesn't intend to question the Bible, it's just that I'm unable to read it without questions coming up in my mind. Like you said, maybe a more "spiritual" eye's reading than "physical" would help, this is a possibility I am prepared to humbly consider and for sure, more I find questions, more eager I feel to delve deeper.
Reply by Anjinsan on 2014-04-24 06:59:21
Hello JB.,
Talking on the Bible, I made it a habit more than a decade ago to complete the bible every year, Well I have not enjoyed it better since I started having an open mind towards other religions especially those ones that believe in the bible.
The Apostle Paul says that all scriptures is inspired of God.( Fine we are not ignorant on how the 66 books were compiled) But the fact still remains that this book has stood the test of many things and is still surviving no easy feat you would agree. If an individual starts reasoning that God's word can be found in the bible and the bible not in totality being God's word, would this not lead to other speculations..
Quite true not all things are straight, some things lead to questions. But even Apostle Paul when writing under inspiration humbly acknowledged seeing in a hazy mirrow, prophesying partially, until that which is complete arrives. he then goes on to champion love. The bible like you said can be used as a reference to find out God's purpose. A brother that I admired a lot puts it this way " The Bible can be compared to a map, a map does not give you every details, in the same vain the bible just gives you sufficient details that would lead one to eternal life"
One reason I keep doing my best to be true to my God and his Son everyday is the satisfaction it gives me in this very life. Another reason is to find out the complete picture...when I see that one face to face and to be frank with you I know he would be amused with many things now happening.Reply by JB on 2014-04-24 17:32:49
Hi Anjinsan, thank you so much for your very interesting comment. I really like the way you consider things related to the Bible and I found several points I am feeling quite the same.
Actually any question that comes up just encourages me to delve deeper and research more, rather than dismiss the idea that the text may have a value. Of course as you said, there are things that are intriguing, but also as you said, the Bible remains unique and for sure, an important reference.
I also like the map comparison, it's true that not all details show the way but indeed overal there is a direction. For me, the part of the bible I read with greatest delight is about Jesus, but isn't it the ultimate knowledge where it all leads to ?
Thank you very much again, for your thoughtful comment.
Comment by Home-schooled math geek on 2014-04-18 14:10:59
Well, excuse me! Some elementary school arithmetic will demonstrate that 13,204 partakers in 113,823 congregations works out to 1 in 8.62, not one in a hundred. On a percentage basis that would be 11.6%, if just one per congregation.
1988 was the first year that the little one had become a thousand.
(Isaiah 60:22) 22 The little one himself will become a thousand, and the small one a mighty nation. I myself, Jehovah, shall speed it up in its own time.”
That is to say in that year for the first time, the number of non-partakers (non-participants in the mandated "keep doing this in memory of me") grew to exceed the partakers by more than 1000 to one.
Perhaps 2014 (or 2015 Jehovah willing) will be the year when that ratio falls back below a thousand to one.Reply by Anonymous on 2014-04-19 09:29:45
Actually 13,204 PARTAKERS in 113,823 CONGREGATIONS does not amount to 1 in 8.62 or 11.6%. You can't just divide 13,204 by 113,823 because you're dealing with two different types of quantities - publishers and congregations. You have to first convert the 113,823 congregations into publishers by multiplying the figure by the average number of publishers per congregation. But don't sweat it. It's an easy oversight that anyone can make.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-19 09:33:34
Or you could get the actual number of publishers from the yearbook. Seem we're having our own "fun with numbers" session. :)
Reply by Home-schooled on 2014-04-19 12:26:27
The context of the calculation is partakers per congregation being only one in a hundred. So yes, you do divide the number of congregations by the number of partakers....or so said the memorial speaker. And 1 in 100 misses the truth by a full order of magnitude.
The context of this discussion is whether the polit-boro party line during the memorial was to discourage the thought of partaking. Seems so from many angles. And this was coming from the "faithful slave."
Comment by Home-schooled astronomer on 2014-04-18 15:19:29
"Blood moon" can be a newspaper headline about a simple lunar eclipse.
NASA finds the subject important enough that they detail every such event back 5000 years to the beginning of recorded history.
See: http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/lunar.html
Best photo round-up site by NASA of blood moon eclipses:
https://www.flickr.com/groups/nasalunareclipse
Total lunar (blood moon) events will occur again next year on the day after the next memorial (eclipse dates: 2015 Apr 04, as well as 2014 Oct 08 and 2015 Sep 28.)
Also of note is a full solar eclipse (darkening of the sun by the moon passing directly in line) visible in Jerusalem to start the lunar month of Nisan next March of 2015. If it takes a visible new moon in Jerusalem to begin a lunar month, and the moon will be visible during the eclipse, shouldn't Nisan 14 be April 2, rather than the announced date of April 3, 2015? Just asking!
Another triple-total lunar eclipse is on the books for 2018 Jan 31, 2018 Jul 27 and 2019 Jan 21.
In ancient Babylon this technology of eclipse prediction was well established using the astronomy and mathematics available to the priests of astrology. Such ones even sought out the Christ at his birth by "following the star."
However, this popular type of "blood moon" is nothing more than fear of Earth's shadow, through which the moon must pass on a predictable basis.
The moon turning to blood in the "day of the Lord" is due to the effects, not of a simple lunar eclipse, but it results from disturbance to the atmospheric heavens, caused by the opening of the sixth seal:
(Revelation 6:12-17) 12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, 13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
In accordance with the above "revelation" to John, Peter preaching at Pentecost on the 50th day of the resurrection, quotes Joel's prophecy about the Day of Jehovah:
(Joel 2:27-31) 27 And you will have to know that I am in the midst of Israel And that I am Jehovah your God—there is no other! My people will never again be put to shame. 28 After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. 29 And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days. 30 And I will give wonders in the heavens and on the earth, Blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood Before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah.
But Peter urges repentant Jews to be baptized in the name of Jesus:
Kingdom Interlinear Acts 2:
20 ὁ the ἥλιος sun μεταστραφήσεται will be turned across εἰς into σκότος darkness καὶ and ἡ the σελήνη moon εἰς into αἷμα blood πρὶν before ἐλθεῖν to come ἡμέραν day Κυρίου of Lord τὴν the μεγάλην great καὶ and ἐπιφανῆ. illustrious. 21 Καὶ And ἔσται it will be πᾶς everyone ὃς who ἐὰν if ever ἐπικαλέσηται should call upon τὸ the ὄνομα name Κυρίου of Lord σωθήσεται.
So in summary, when the real blood moon of Joel's prophecy is seen in the heavens and all the tribes of the Earth begin to beat themselves in lamentation, whose name will you call on?
Comment by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-04-18 15:21:41
That's what happens if you discourage education beyond high school (phun intended ;)))
Comment by johnamos on 2014-04-20 20:07:50
[Also, let the peace of the Christ control in YOUR hearts, for YOU were, in fact, called to it in one body. And show yourselves thankful.]
Who are being referred to as the ones that are called in to one body???
[so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but members belonging individually to one another.]
Who are the “we” that are being said that they are “one body”???
[One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called;]
What is “one body” referring to??? Who are the “YOU” that are called into one hope???
Now depending on those answers, how does this fit in:
[Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf.]Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-20 23:12:46
An excellent point. How can there be two bodies, two classes of Christian?