WT Study: Serve God Loyally Despite “Many Tribulations”

Comment by ilovejesus333 on 2014-11-02 20:07:57

Hi meliti, it's me again.
I would dearly love to believe what you say about these two classes of sheep. May I pose a couple of questions to you.
If we are all in line for a heavenly hope why is there to be a new earth.
What does the scripture mean "the meek will inherit the earth.
If we all go to heaven does that mean Jehovah's original purpose had been thwarted
What does it mean about the ressuerection of the righteous and unrighteous
I honestly value your opinion knowing the great work in providing us with a better understanding of the scriptures, I'm not using these questions to open a debate but simply to understand this teaching a bit better.
Please can you help me in this regard.
You put so much work into this site and I will understand if you haven't time at the moment but I do appreciate what you are doing.
Thanks

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-02 23:05:55

  Actually, I've been composing a post on this topic. But I can give you a brief illustration.
  Suppose a king commissioned his son to take over a piece of land for the purpose of receiving refugees from nations all over the earth. The son would rule these refugees, nurturing them back to health, educating them, ensuring their safety, and freeing them from the traditions and superstitions that had enslaved them. However, the son realizes that he cannot do the job himself. He needs an administration. Co-rulers to govern and care for the people. Should he bring the people in to the country prepared for him by the father, then go looking for administrators? Obviously not. First, you take care of the infrastructure, then you bring in the people. Otherwise, there would be chaos.
  The good news is a call to all who are willing to respond to take part in that administration. Many are called, but few are chosen, because they need very special qualities. Not the ambition and lust for power that is common in today's governors, but humility, self-sacrifice, obedience, and most of all, love. These qualities must be proven by the fiery tests of tribulation and persecution. As Jesus was made perfect by them, so will his brothers be.
  Once that number is filled, then the King's son--a king in his own right--can bring in the people to fill his land.
  So yes, I very much believe in the earth being filled, but the hope extended to Christians in the first century was not to populate the earth, but to co-rule with Jesus. That hope has never changed. Those who do not embrace that hope still get to a chance at everlasting life as part of the resurrection of the unrighteous on earth.
  Hope that clarifies things.

  • Reply by Christian on 2014-11-03 03:34:32

    I enjoyed that illustration Meleti.
    Isn’t it funny how you can acknowledge what are becoming increasingly obvious Bible truths by holding these scriptures in your mind, rolling them around, praying about them, yet not really grasping their full importance until you read a scripture in a different setting. When I read your reference to Matt.22:14 a small light-bulb went on!
    For some time now I have thought that the heavenly calling must naturally be a limited number but not necessarily a defined number.
    This is only right that a spiritual administration must have subjects and that the subjects would outnumber the rulers. But putting this arrangement in an earthly context is challenging given the heavenly focus of the Christian scriptures.
    Many claim a heavenly hope yet, without judging them, this must surely be a delusion based on even a liberal assessment of their conduct etc.
    Simply wanting to go to Heaven is not enough, because one must be drawn by God and their spirit must cooperate with that calling. In this sense JW have this correct according to scripture, but by defining 144,000 as a literal number and seeking to calculate a remnant value they have temporarily inhibited others from recognizing that Jesus is knocking. This whole construct of 1914, 1919, the generation and remnant of ‘the’ 144,000 has acted like a clamp on this profound Bible truth, namely that God draws those who are worthy and no-one has the right to impede or limit that calling. The number will be what it will be because being raised to a heavenly existence is not a percentage pass mark.
    All who are worthy will be chosen.
    Just my opinion of course but it seems to make some sense.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-03 08:16:47

      Indeed! You make a great deal of sense.

  • Reply by menrov on 2014-11-03 08:37:40

    Just a thought: In general Christian denominations believe all or honest people will go to heaven. JWs believe only the selected few will go. As far as I can see, Jesus only told his apostles that they will be with Him. Revelation talks about 24 elders sitting on thrones. All others, 144.000 and great crowd are not displayed as sitting on thrones. My point is, if one would not have been brought up in a mainstream Christian denomination nor raised or educated as a JW, but purely read the bible as it is, would you come to the conclusion that righteous people would go to a physical heaven? Could it be that the Kingdom of Heaven is a society which is ruled by ONE King (Jesus, not 144.000 kings) and 24 elders from heaven, supported by the many priests on earth in order to guide the meek and righteous people who will live on earth (a population that includes the so-called 144000 and great crowd)? Would that not be the fulfilment of the Lord's prayer "may your Kingdom come [to earth], may your will be done on earth as it is [already] in heaven.
    Why would Jesus need 144000 "kings" to rule with Him? He has many angels. His Father never needed more people to rule with him from heaven.
    I sometimes have the feeling that the doctrine that the 144000 will rule in heaven and that the rest can only hope of eternal life on earth was a doctrine to distinguish from mainstream Christianity.
    Anyway, like I said, just a thought and probably good to explore on DTT :-)

    • Reply by BeenMislead on 2014-11-04 08:46:47

      Rev 5:10 in the New World Translation says:
      “and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
      -------------------------------------------------------
      But notice that all these other Bible Translations say either “on the earth” or “upon the earth”.
      Kingdom Interlinear Translation (Rev. 5:10 says:)
      “and you made them to the God of us kingdom and priests, and they are reigning upon the earth”.
      New International Version (Rev 5:10 says:)
      “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
      New Living Translation (Rev 5:10 says:)
      “And you have caused them to become a Kingdom of priests for our God. And they will reign on the earth."
      English Standard Version (Rev 5:10 says:)
      “and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”
      New American Standard Bible (Rev 5:10 says:)
      "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
      King James Bible (Rev 5:10 says:)
      “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
      ------------------------------------------------
      So why did Jehovah’s Witnesses translate it as “over the earth”?
      The answer seems obvious. To support their interpretation of prophecy that the 144,000 will be ruling from heaven. But will they? Saying “upon the earth” or “on the earth” says to me that the 144,000 will be here on the earth not in heaven!
      How can all these other translations be wrong and only the New World Translation be right?

      • Reply by menrov on 2014-11-04 09:15:18

        I agree with you. About all hve UPON or ON the earth. It is not the only "tweak" in (R)NWT in order to support a doctrine. On the DTT site I started a topic on this. After all, in all fairness, why would Jesus need 144000 persons to so-called co-rule with Him from heaven? They have run operations from heaven for ages, there are many loyal and strong angels to provide support. What He will likely need, is indeed priests and rulers on earth, loyal to Him and loyal to the kingdom. A bit like Moses did, when he appointed overseers over 50, over 100 and over 1000.

    • Reply by Christian on 2014-11-04 15:03:10

      It makes sense that those chosen to be part of an administration to restore mankind etc would have some presence on Earth. Being given a spiritual body does not limit the use of materializing in a physical form as angels have done.
      This would seem entirely practical to accomplish the Kingdom rule.
      Even Jesus could use this ability perhaps?

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 03:46:17

The two tier hope thing is a real red herring for JWs. Who is going where, who is to going rule over who and what? How many are there? Am I included?
There are endless watchtower articles pushing this idea, when a few lines of scripture clarify something fundamental to all believers.
In Revelation Jesus is talking to the congregation at Sardis. There are effectively two kinds of believers with potentially two destinies.
To one group he says at Revelation 3:3 "Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent....... Rev 3:4 “Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Those who do not repent will potentially lose their reward. The other group have repented and will receive their reward. Which is eternal life.
I believe that the Watchtower's present teaching regarding the two hopes is potentially misleading and dangerous, it gives the impression that the road to everlasting life is a long progressive slog, which extends well into a thousand years. This may postpone the individuals desire to truly repent now, in this present age. Also, it negates the necessity of a immortal, incorruptible powerful resurrected body, which solves the problem finally of sin and death.

• Reply by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 07:00:57

  Sorry I said 'In Revelation Jesus is talking to the congregation at Sardis. There are effectively to kinds of believers with potentially two destinies.'
  I meant to say "In Revelation Jesus is talking to the congregation at Sardis. There are effectively" two" kinds of believers with potentially two destinies.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-03 09:35:12

  I agree, markchristopher. I think that the appeal for many JWs of the two-tier system is that it means they don't have to work so hard. It's like a consolation prize or a prize for participating. Under this system, you don't have to try quite as hard and you still get the chance to live in the new world where it will be a lot easier to overcome your sinful tendencies. I've found that for many, the idea they can now embrace a heavenly hope is received with misgivings. It's like finding out that somebody changed the passing grade from 50% to 90%.
  (PS: I fixed the spelling error for you.)

  • Reply by on 2014-11-03 17:48:05

    What is more, Meleti, is the fact that Jehovah and his Son deal with an "organization". So, the individual's endurance and integrity are somewhat diminished because all one simply has to do is get on the ark. Besides, most of the Greek Scriptures don't apply to those with an earthly hope anyway. We're taught they do by extention, but this is a ploy to make one think he's in the loop.

  • Reply by on 2014-11-04 12:43:28

    "I think that the appeal for many JWs of the two-tier system is that it means they don’t have to work so hard. It’s like a consolation prize or a prize for participating. Under this system, you don’t have to try quite as hard and you still get the chance to live in the new world where it will be a lot easier to overcome your sinful tendencies."
    I found this remark painful. Ninety-nine percent of the heavy lifting in the JW religion is accomplished by those who have not been called to heaven but answer the call nonetheless to work hard in behalf of their brothers.
    Anointed elitism is a fast track to nowhere. Something the Governing Body proves true every day.
    "I’ve found that for many, the idea they can now embrace a heavenly hope is received with misgivings. It’s like finding out that somebody changed the passing grade from 50% to 90%."
    If that is how some view being called then in fact they have NOT been called because God's spirit brings the DESIRE to do God's will full time and in the fullest possible way. Anointing is a change of nature not a ladder to climb. Christ climbed it for us, God provides his spirit, the anointed is drawn to God and like a moth to a flame NEEDS to do God's Will, he/she WANTS to do God's Will. It's only when a JW is FORCED/ENCOURAGED to believe that he MUST have a heavenly hope that it then becomes more than he is ready for. It's a mistake to tell someone they SHOULD be anointed or SHOULD NOT be anointed that is God's place.
    The great wonder about most sincere JWs is that they are willing to serve WITHOUT the heavenly hope! Beautiful they are, very beautiful!
    Daytona

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-04 14:10:18

      You make several valid points. When I have introduced the idea to some close friends that the heavenly hope is open to all, I've usually been met with resistance. I do not believe this is because they believe that the "anointed" have to work harder to qualify. Even friends who've given up everything to pioneer for close to 30 years have resisted the idea that they could be one of the anointed. So some--even many--it is for the reasons I gave above, but that is merely my opinion. For others, particularly those who are sterling examples of zeal in the JW mold, I think it stems from the idea that they have to be better, not in works, but in thought. We all fight with personal sins which we can't seem to free ourselves from. Paul alludes to this war between good and evil without ourselves at Romans 7:21-25. For many, again IMHO, the idea is that the anointed have to overcome those sins to qualify. Of course, that is nonsense since all are rewarded out of undeserved kindness, but the idea remains because it has been fostered by JW tradition.
      However, once someone overcomes the long-ingrained prejudice from years of JW indoctrination and embraces the true hope, they feel such a release and such freedom that they experience a joy the likes of which they have never known. This was my experience.

    • Reply by markchristopher on 2014-11-04 15:32:59

      Meleti/anonymous
      Just to elaborate on my above comment.
      The two tier system detracts from the simplicity of the message because it puts off the need to completely turn around from the fleshly man. I am a prime example. I thought I could wait until the new system to work on my personality traits, and anyway if I died before Armageddon, death would pay for my sins.The elders measured my spiritual progress by meeting and ministry attendance, commenting at meetings, ministry school etc.I thought that was the truth!
      It was not until years after my baptism I realised that when I examined myself inwardly it was not pretty.In fact I was completely ashamed of the man I was.I could not understand why I was that way.I was a very fleshly man.
      I prayed for help and started to read the bible for answers. The answers where clear and simple, they where right before me.The scriptures that I thought where only for the anointed gave me the doorway I needed.. I repented because I understood what Iwas on offer.Now I truly can say I am no longer the man I was.Why?because I understood.
      This is the turning point which in my experience many struggle to see.Many of my friends have fallen away as JWs because, they really did not hear the gospel in the first place.I am not saying that all don,t get it or don't truly repent its just telling people that most of the new testament is not for you when it contains vital truth is a big problem.

    • Reply by anderestimme on 2014-11-04 21:21:12

      That's another weird thing about the two-tiered hope. The early Christians were all anointed, so we are told, strictly on a first-come first-served basis. Any old bonehead was heaven-bound back then but now, in the "last days", for some reason the anointing process has become a matter of the choosing of the fittest.

      • Reply by markchristopher on 2014-11-05 04:50:02

        Anderestimme
        Thats the impression I get too. Jesus ate with the dregs of society, the outcasts.Matt 2:17 I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
        JWs and the Watchtower have a tendency to sugarcoat the first century church and the anointed. When we look closer they could be a right motley crew.
        You have James ticking off anointed christians for discriminating against the poor.They had fights and quarrels, envying the things they could not have.
        You have anointed christians disrespecting the Lords evening meal, eating and drinking before others.even getting drunk.The list goes on.
        Apart from the WTS insistence that there two tiers.We have the urban, social myth, that the people who partake,somehow while merrily walking along the street one day and completely without warning just know they are going to heaven.When for the first century anointed they simply heard the message repented and got baptised just like the majority of JWs.

    • Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-11-05 05:07:52

      Slightly off topic... I remember pioneering (I was about 13 or 14) and going on a study with a dear sister. This study was deemed as a "career Bible student" and the friends frequently quoted 2 Timothy 3:7 in connection with her. Anyways, the study got baptized and started to partake the same year. Boy was our congregation in a uproar!! They called the sister crazy, the elders studied with her and after 2 years she stopped partaking. But weirdly a few memorials after that she started to cry and sweat and the brothers would take her out of the hall during the memorial.
      I remember pioneering with a sister who partook for many years. I remember being out in service knocking on her door to visit her with a brother to check on her because she stopped coming to the hall. She was accused by many of the friends of not wanting to let go of the babylonish teachings of wanting to go to heaven. She bitterly refused to open the door for the friends for many years.When she came back she still softly cries at the memorial .After the memorial the friends rush to her aid to "support her" because the thinking is that she needs it to "take her stand" as if they are helping her avoid sin.
      If the elders are judge and jury the well meaning so called" friends" are like the "anointed " or "memorial " police squad. As I ponder on partaking both publicly and privately this year I remind myself that not partaking at the JW's memorial if done so out of not wanting to offend the consciences of others is one thing. But if I'm secretly doing so out of fear well that's quite another thing. Jesus judges the secret things of the heart while man judges outwardly. I pray for a heart of courage to strive to obey God as ruler rather than man.
      I can't say that it's not scary though. Just proclaming Christ death till he arrives by way of the Memorial is enough to put you in front of a congregation firing death squad.

    • Reply by anderestimme on 2014-11-05 21:32:52

      GWIT, you've got some real horror stories there. We had some oddball partakers which no one, save one elder's wife, got too upset about. The more I think about it, the more I want to stay home next year and have my own little family memorial, where issues of fear and misunderstanding won't come up. I think people would just say I was crazy behind my back, but if my publicly partaking really could give some kind of witness, then it would be worth it to attend. It's hard to analyze those factors without fear secretly trying to tip the balance.
      MC, I noticed a while back that the qualifications for 'overseers' as found in Titus and Timothy also hint at a much 'motleyer' first century crew than we may think. 'A husband of one wife, not a drunkard', for example, are strange-sounding requirements in the modern, JW context. Such ones wouldn't even be allowed in the congregation, much less considered for appointment. On the other hand, lower behavioral standards is a disconcerting thought.

Comment by Katrina on 2014-11-03 06:27:13

God's word says Christians will be persecuted because of Christs name not Jehovah.

• Reply by FutureMan on 2014-11-04 05:04:55

  Exactly, and I agree with you on this point 100 percent.
  So why is it that the JW organization want to detract from Jesus name and focus on the name Jehovah, of which they are now bringing reproach upon by their actions today?
  Is it because they have taken up this name for themselves as a way of distinguishing themselves from all the other religious belief sytems at the expense of God's saving hand Jesus Christ who has been exalted above all others in this part of the universe.
  Even when God had categorically stated that this was his beloved Son whom he had approved of and that we should all listen to him?

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 08:16:09

Hi Christian
Maybe the reason why JWs find it difficult to imagine an heavenly hope is because they mis interpret the meaning of what a heavenly hope is.The bibles attention is not on a destination as such, but a resurrection into a changed body.
The problem with mankind isn’t that it needs an administration to get things right, although its a reasonable asumption. The problem with man is sin and death, The solution is first true repentance through a renewed spirit then finally a redeemed heavenly body.It can't be simpler.
Even Job contemplated a resurrection with a changed body.
The Apostle Paul writes to first century christians that the solution to death is 1 Corinthians 15: 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
The expression“Death has been swallowed up in victory” is said by Jesus Christ to the congregation at Sardis in Revelation.A reward for those who have repented is that death will be swallowed up. Not a chance to rule over others in an administration.
If Christ is gathering his admin its not the main brunt of Christ’s message its redemption from the Flesh.Flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom.
As regards to what it means to reign with Christ. Before Christ’s death and resurrection sin and death reigned.Now through repentance we reign with christ in righteousness and life rules.
So, Its sin that reigns over those who don't repent. When we repent righteousness rules or governs our lifes. This is how we rule with Christ.Wether there is a literal admin is secondary to the Gospel.
Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Revelation 22:5
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever
Those who along with Christ have conquered sin rule with Christ as Kings.No longer does sin and death have dominion over them. They are governed by christ and his righteousness.This is the heavenly hope.
The first century Jewish nation mistakenly thought the Kingdom was a literal admin so did not repent because they get it.

• Reply by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 08:19:48

  Oops I meantt to say "The first century Jewish nation mistakenly thought the Kingdom was a literal admin so did not repent because they "did not" get it.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-03 09:57:20

  While your comments are true as regards the heavenly reward, we wouldn't want to give the impression that the human body God created is inadequate to the task of living forever. Had Adam not sinned, his body would have continued. So it is sin that corrupted the body. Those who are resurrected to a restored earth under the rulership of Christ and his brothers will benefit from their administrative oversight and care. By the end of the thousand years, the sinless state of humanity will have been restored.

  • Reply by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 11:02:18

    Meleti
    Our present bodily condition is the issue for people who struggle with the flesh.
    I have associated with JWs since I was six years old I am 47 now, I have been baptised for around 15 years.I have seen many friends’ come and go from the Org.Many suffer with guilt and mental illness ,choosing to keep away as they can,t live up to expectations.A few years ago, A brother, who, had a heart of gold and who loved God, committed suicide.He had been brought up as a witness but later on developed chemical addictions and suffered with homosexual feelings.No matter how hard he tried and desired he could not fully escape this struggle.
    The Apostle Paul describes perfectly in Romans his inner struggle with the flesh.Even though he desired to do what was right he did not always do it.He would, like all christians struggle until physical death.What is the solution? A resurrection to the same fleshly body weak, earthly corruptible mortal vessel? Or something better?
    The problem for my old friend and others like him including myself, is that being taught that Gods plan of salvation is we need a better admin just does not cut it.It simply does not deal with sin.
    When we accept the same gospel as written to first century christians, for those who are desperate and groaning for release from sin its a clear solution.
    Adam sinned and died in his mortal body.we are not promised Adams mortal body at resurrection not even a perfect one.
    1 Cor 15:50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    This why the JW message does not give real hope for sinners.If we lived in a paradise earth now with nice skin, youthful bodies, big houses, interesting jobs and a great admin, we would still have weak corruptible and mortal bodies and still struggle with our sinful tendancies. That is not a solution.We would still be dependent on a great struggle to be free from corruption.very depressing

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-03 12:23:21

      I can see the conflict this understanding creates. However, it is based on a faulty premise. The problem isn't flesh, but fallen flesh.
      As Jesus said--and I use this with no disrespect intended--“YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Mt 22:29)
      The power of God is not restrained. Can he create a being of flesh and blood not tormented by our sinful yearnings? Of course. Adam was such a being. This does not mean that Adam could not sin, for he had free will, but his sin was a conscious choice. To imagine the solution lies merely with the body, with the flesh itself, is to forget that the glorious, sinless spirit sons of God also gave in to temptation and lustfully desired the daughters of men.
      The problem is that we have not chosen to sin, but were born in it. Once freed from sin by the grace of God, we will not be tormented by unbidden desires. Whether in the flesh or the spirit, we will be able to sin no more. It will be part of our natural way of thinking. We will not need to resist and fight against recurring desires. We simply will feel no such bad desires, so there will be no internal conflict.

Comment by menrov on 2014-11-03 08:22:19

In par. 1, a reference is made to Rev. 12:12, which describes woe to earth as a result of casting Satan out of heaven. As the doctrine states that this happened in 1914, it seems tribulation experienced by Christians only started in 1914… a bit in contradiction with par. 2 where Jesus words are mentioned regarding expected tribulation that would start after He left and the paragraph indicates that it is Satan who is behind all that. In fact, as par. 3-5 shows, discussion what Paul had experienced, already shows that tribulation started soon after Jesus.
It would have been nice if they would have quoted the full verse in Matt. 10:22 or use Mark 13:13 as it becomes clear that being followers of Christ as the reason for persecutions. Well, cherry picking is nice……
The reasoning in par. 6 gives headaches  and Meleti already commented on this.
Par. 7 refers to Mark 13:9. Unfortunately not the whole verse is quoted as one could then read that Christians are persecuted because of Jesus, because of witnessing to them (kings / governors).
Par. 9 says “For example, in one country some Witnesses have endured almost 20 years of imprisonment because of maintaining their neutrality.”. No saying it is not true but why not be specific. Anyway, only JW’s?? Newspaper The Independent says “The Centre for the Study of Global Christianity in the United States estimates that 100,000 Christians now die every year, targeted because of their faith – that is 11 every hour. The Pew Research Center says that hostility to religion reached a new high in 2012, when Christians faced some form of discrimination in 139 countries, almost three-quarters of the world's nations.”
See the whole story here: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/christians-the-worlds-most-persecuted-people-9630774.html
Par.14 gives me a strange feeling. Becoming discouraged is because of my personality or physical distortion?? Wow….such a statement in itself can make me feel discouraged.
Par. 16 “….Therefore, would it not be wise to do some significant training during a time of relative peace?” Par 1 says we live in a time of tribulation and now we live in a time of relative peace?? Ahh…referring to JW’s in general. Not taking into account the suffering many other Christians experience (see my link to article in The Independent).
Par. 17: “When faced with peer pressure, do I obey God as ruler rather than men?” YES, I obey God and His Son rather than GB, Elders or other men. Oops, I guess that is not the correct answer….
“Am I submissive to those taking the lead in the local congregation and to those responsible for doing so in the worldwide congregation?’” Ahhh… that the catch… How can I obey or be submissive to both God and His Son AND to the elders and GB? Is it not that this will end in the situation that I will love one and hate the other?
Par. 19 hen bigger trials come in the future, you will be in a better position to face them if you have developed a good spiritual routine in advance.”” I thought it was FAITH in Jesus and LOVE that will help a Christian to endure? I must be wrong…. again..
Par. 20/21: “What about subtle attacks? For instance, how can we counteract feelings of discouragement? One of the most powerful ways to do so is to meditate on the ransom.”
Really, now the ransom has value for the “other sheep”?? I thought that the ransom and Jesus role as mediator was only for the “anointed” class (Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31).. Oops, wrong again, the ransom does apply to the “other sheep” but by extension “Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God's friends. (Compare James 2:23.)" Watchtower 1991 Feb 15 p.18” ….. Yes, makes sense, Abraham was considered a friend of God without a ransom and the “the other sheep” need the costly ransom to be considered Gods friends again….. a whole ransom in order to be have the possibility be consider Gods friend….

Comment by life2come on 2014-11-03 08:45:20

I never quite understood the teaching that the great crowd would have to wait until the end of the 1000 year reign to be declared righteous for life; in Revelation arent they shown wearing their white robes just after Armageddon not at the end of the 1000 years, and this signifying a righteous standing by having their robes washed in the blood of the lamb? Rev 22:14 says this gives them the right to the tree of life.

• Reply by menrov on 2014-11-03 10:33:42

  Hi Life2come, regarding this "they shown wearing their white robes just after Armageddon" in fact the verses read that they were wearing these robes having survived the tribulations, not armageddon.
  Rev.7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These dressed in long white robes—who are they and where have they come from?” 14 So I said to him, “My lord, you know the answer.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb!

• Reply by BeenMislead on 2014-11-04 09:04:44

  Rev 7:15 speaking of the Great Crowd says:
  “That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.”
  The New World Translation says “in his temple”.
  The Greek word for temple used at Rev. 7:15 is naos’ which means the inner sanctuary of the temple representing heaven itself.
  The reference in the New World Translation (reference bible) after temple is as follows:
  Or, “divine habitation (dwelling).” Gr., na•oi′, dative, sing.; Lat., tem′plo; J17,18,22(Heb.), beheh•kha•loh′, “in his palace (temple).”
  The Kingdom Interlinear Translation shows that Rev. 7:15 says “in the divine habitation of him”.
  (But I noticed that they REMOVED the reference after temple in the new (silver sword) bible. Why do think they did that?)
  ___________________________________________________
  Compare Rev 11:19 which says:
  “And the temple [sanctuary] of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple [sanctuary]. And there occurred lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.”
  Notice they inserted the word in brackets [sanctuary] here when the Greek word naos’ is used, but NOT at Rev 7:15. Why is that?
  The Kingdom Interlinear Translation shows that Rev. 11:19 says: “the divine habitation of the God the (one) in the heaven”
  The Greek word naos’ used in Revelation 11:19 for the inner “sanctuary” part of the temple is the SAME Greek word used for the temple in Revelation 7:15. And notice that Revelation 11:19 says “temple [sanctuary] of God that is in heaven”.
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Here is what naos’ means:
  “A temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides.” (Strong’s Concordance)
  “Refers to the sanctuary (the Jewish Temple proper), i.e. with just its two inner compartments (rooms).” (HELPS Word-studies)
  “… used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies …” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon)
  _________________________________________________
  Here is what hieron means:
  “a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers.”(Strong’s Concordance)
  “the entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.” (HELPS Word-studies)
  “… designates the whole compass of the sacred enclosure, embracing the entire aggregate of buildings, balconies, porticos, courts (viz., that of the men or Israelites, that of the women, that of the priests), belonging to the temple …” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon)
  ________________________________________________
  The Greek word hieron is used to mean the whole temple. But hieron is NOT used at Rev. 7:15.
  As you can see according to the above information, the “great crowd” is serving in the inner “sanctuary” portion of God’s temple in heaven, not some outer courtyard. Otherwise the Greek word hieron would be used at Rev 7:15 instead.
  So why do we teach that the great crowd are on earth?
  Something does not add up!!

  • Reply by peely on 2014-11-04 20:01:48

    It certainly doesn't add up the way the Watchtower teaches who the Great Crowd is. There is more doctrine - I should say lies - underneath the org's teachings than what meets the eye. 1914 is a glaring doctrine, but many are more subtle.
    The early temple arrangement was a foreshadow of Christ's Temple; both inhabited or made up of priests. The difference with Christ's Temple is the priests (faithful anointed) are also actually THE Temple. (I would use italics if I had them) It is not a physical Temple, but priests in an arrangement slaving for God's purpose to reconcile mankind to Himself. 2Cor.5:20; Mal.2:7; Rev.22:3
    The Great Crowd then, are the remaining ones, the remnant, of the woman's seed. Rev 12:17.
    Our brother Obadiah has some thoughts on this:
    http://revelationchapter7-9.blogspot.com/
    peely

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 13:44:16

With all deepest respect Meleti, starting out with a defence “YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Mt 22:29) is arrogant, rude and an assumption like the rest of your comment.Which incidentally offers no scriptures to back what you are saying.
You said “To imagine the solution lies merely with the body”When did I say that? First we repent, and are spirit is renewed Titus 3:5 'he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit”
However like Paul we sigh and groan for release, From what? Our Fleshly weak corruptible bodies
2 Corithians 5:4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
.
Christians are no longer under compulsion to sin, yet they struggle in the flesh.They still make mistakes.Do they continue to make mistakes in their new bodies?No. Why? Because there fleshly bodies where a burden. Untill they are perfected in glorious new bodies they still make mistakes. Hence. The need for forgiveness even after we repent!
What has the glorious son have to do with it? We're not angels.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-03 14:57:44

  It may be that I misread your previous comment, for I understood you to mean that those who are resurrected to eventual perfect human life must also have a different kind of body than Adam, a non-fleshly one. If that is not the case, then of course, my words were misapplied and I apologize.

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 14:36:43

Sorry a few corrections to my last comment.
"First we repent, and "our" spirit is renewed. I wrote "are"
What has the glorious "sons" have to do with it?. I wrote "son"

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 16:11:16

No worries, apology accepted.
I can't see in scripture where humans are gradually brought to eternl life through gradual perfection? There are two resurrections. One to immortality “a heavenly body.” The other resurrection is a flesh and blood body, which cannot achieve immortality.
In the first resurrection there is no second death ( no dying twice), but as for the second resurrection, people have died once, but may die again.If flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom, then the first resurrection not only implies first in order, but also describes a better resurrection an immortal one.
In the millennium reign, those who did not hear the gospel and repent in Christ are resurrected and given the opportunity to get to know God and are tested at the end of that age.In order to gain deathlessness, they also must receive immortal bodies.Because flesh and blood is not immortal.
As Jehovahs Witnesses we are told there are two hopes both obtaining eternal life but by different means..This is a “Red Herring”.In this present age the invitation is only to immortality.Those who miss out on this, potentially are given an opportunity in a resurrected Flesh and blood mortal body, they don't yet receive immortality.They are tested at the end of the thousand years.Then receive immortality.Every one of Jehovahs Witnesses should be encourage to put their hope in the first or better resurrection. But they are not.
What about all the billions of muslims who have not put their faith in Christ? Are the majority of JWs who have accepted Christ to get the same hope as them. A resurrection to a flesh and blood body yet to be tested at the end of the thousand years?Does not make sense.worries, apology accepted

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-03 16:35:13

  >>In order to gain deathlessness, they also must receive immortal bodies.Because flesh and blood is not immortal.
  As I understand it, immortality is distinct from everlasting life. The angels live forever, provided they do not sin, but are not immortal. It may be that we differ only in the definition we each ascribe to "immortality". For me it means having life within oneself, not depending on outside power to maintain life.
  While flesh and blood is not immortal, depending on outside influences to sustain life, this doesn't mean that it must die. Everlasting life is still possible.

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 17:25:03

Whats the difference?endless life is deathlessness,If we interpret everlasting as not endless life its not eternal and there is an end.Another Watchtower “Red Herring”
To save arguing all christians wether so called anointed or other sheep are promised eternal life.Thats endless life.
The Watchtowers idea that a 144000 have life within themselves, meaning they have self sustaining immortality has no basis in scripture.The only truly eternal immortal being is God.Only he has self sustaining life, he grants it to all his sons, The life we have within us comes from Gods spirit because the spirit gives life.
John 6:63 T”he Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.
1 Tim 6:15which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen
In the scriptures everlasting and eternal are interchangeable, and their meaning depends on the context.
Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. (greek)aiōnion also everlasting.
First century anointed christians are offered eternal or everlasting life.God gonly ives us immortal bodies which we we dwell in so we can live age after age into eternity.
You Said “While flesh and blood is not immortal, depending on outside influences to sustain life, this doesn’t mean that it must die. Everlasting life is still possible.” How?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-03 18:20:26

  >>You Said “While flesh and blood is not immortal, depending on outside influences to sustain life, this doesn’t mean that it must die. Everlasting life is still possible.” How?
  And now you bring me back to the quote you felt was offensive. You can't see it, so it cannot be, but you are cutting short the power of God. If he wishes to create a being in his image but made of flesh and blood and see that he never dies, then who are we to say it cannot be done?
  I think if we want to take this farther, we should move it to www.discussthetruth.com which is designed for this type of interchange. If you're interested, please open a topic there and we can get it going.

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-03 19:30:19

I did not say it cant be done. I have absolute belief God can do what he says.You are putting words into my mouth
The apostle paul not only teachers there is a resurrection but he teaches “how” God gives us eternal life, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come? He goes not to describe how.
I asked you how?.If you can not answer from scripture. I will assume Paul’s inspired words are the truth.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-03 19:56:08

  You did not say it cannot be done, but the whole tenor of your comments leads the reader to the conclusion that you do not believe a fleshly body can have everlasting life.
  You quote Paul's words but they are clearly directed to those who are the brothers of Christ. These receive the inheritance for dying and being resurrected in the likeness of his resurrection. They alone have authority to be sons of God. They rule as kings and priests.
  His words are not intended to apply to all of humanity which will be resurrected. That is why the sons of God who die are part of the first resurrection, the better resurrection. But there are those who are unrighteous. These two are resurrected. They live on earth. The devil is released to test them. Fire comes from heaven to consume those who follow the devil. This happens on earth to the humans who are subjects of the kingdom of Christ.
  (Eph. 1:13, 14; Ro 6:5; Joh 1:12; Re 5:9,10; 20:5,6; He 11:35; Acts 24:15; Re 20:7-10)
  Now, if you want to explore this further, please open up a topic on www.discussthetruth.com. This is not the forum for a detailed back and forth discussion like this one has become.

  • Reply by markchristopher on 2014-11-04 03:34:35

    Sorry Meleti but I don,t think you understand what I am trying to say.The message that was sent out in the first century is the same then as it is today.An invitation to repent and a hope of eternal life with an immortal body.It can't be simpler. Wether you believe its in heaven to rule over people is secondary to the gospel.We are not given a choice to a destination.
    For all those who do not put faith in Christ, either because they lacked faith did not repent or simply did not hear the message, in the resurrection they do not get eternal life immediately. They are tested in the millennium reign.What bodies they have for now is secondary to the message because we are talking about non believers.
    Paul’s struggle with the fleshly man is a comfort and reassurance to me and many others because we understand that we are redeemed from that struggle with better bodies.Again it can't be simpler.Paul and the rest of believers are not signing and groaning because they want rule over other people, They want to be free from the burden of the fleshly body and finally from sin and death.This is the good news.
    So, God has an invitation for this present age until Christ’s returns. Repent and a hope of eternal life in a redeemed body.This is the message. We don,t deviate from it.Who and how christians rule, the bible does not say.What bodies non believers get is not the important at this time.The danger is formulating a concept of how the Kingdom will work in the age to come. Some have strayed away from the clear and simple message of hope and comfort by doing so.Thats all I have to say about that.I am not trying to be dogmatic or insisting on anything.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-04 08:05:24

      I agree with you concerning what the gospel of the good news is. We are also in agreement as to what the hope for Christians is. Since we are on the same page apparently, one wonders how we could get so far off track. What gave me the misconception concerning what I thought you were saying were these words from your original comment:
      "Maybe the reason why JWs find it difficult to imagine an heavenly hope is because they misinterpret the meaning of what a heavenly hope is.The bibles attention is not on a destination as such, but a resurrection into a changed body.
      The problem with mankind isn’t that it needs an administration to get things right, although its a reasonable asumption. The problem with man is sin and death, The solution is first true repentance through a renewed spirit then finally a redeemed heavenly body.It can’t be simpler.
      Even Job contemplated a resurrection with a changed body.
      The Apostle Paul writes to first century christians that the solution to death is 1 Corinthians 15: 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”"
      From this, I understood that you believed the solution for all mankind--not just Christians--was the putting on of an immortal body such as Paul describes.
      Anyway, I'm glad we got that straightened out. I do agree with you that Jehovah's Witnesses have altered the message of the good news with the two-tier system of salvation that is preached.

    • Reply by ilovejesus333 on 2014-11-10 18:08:12

      Hi Mark C,
      Just wondering what the difference between immortality and everlasting life is. Wasn't Adam created with everlasting life in mind. And he would have had it , if he remained obedient. Gen 2;17 The day you eat the fruit you will SURELY die. He wasn't created immortal but had eternal life. Some may say then why did he die, well Adam's eternal life depended upon his obedience to his creator.
      Now let's take the angels!
      Were they created immortal? Then if so why will many of them be desroyed along with Satan at the end of the 1000 years Rev 20 7;10 Like Adam they also had eternal life but like Adam their obedience to Jehovah depended upon it. I'm simply suggesting that any life one may have is dependent on our obedience to jehovah. When man is brought back to perfection, individuals may even sin after the 1000 years " I'm open to correction here" but that wont necessitate the complete destruction of the whole world (only the sinful ones)
      I would submit that man and angels were never created immortal and that only Jehovah and Jesus poccess it.
      I welcome any comments on the above, love to hear your thoughts .

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-04 09:35:15

me too!

Comment by peely on 2014-11-04 10:02:53

In reference to the meaning of "tribulation", notice this fuller definition of the Greek word, thlípsis – properly, pressure (what constricts or rubs together), used of a narrow place that "hems someone in"; tribulation, especially internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined (restricted, "without options") and carries the challenge of coping with the internal pressure of a tribulation, especially when feeling there is "no way of escape" ("hemmed in").
Considering your final questions, Meleti...
Rather than focus on the symptom, why don’t we seek out the true cause of the discouragement many feel? What tribulation is causing many of our brothers and sisters to feel discouraged? Are the many demands put upon us by the organization too great a load? Are we made to feel guilty because we are not doing enough to gain everlasting life? Is the constant pressure to compare ourselves with others only to come up short because unlike them we are not able to pioneer, the tribulation (pressure) that is causing us discouragement?
...it is clear to me that we are actually experiencing the great tribulation at this moment, and it is a testing of where our exclusive devotion to God and Christ lies. Isa 5:7; Ezek 22:28,29; Rev 13:10; Luke 22:31. This is also a time of "pangs of distress", or more appropriately, labor pains as the Kingdom of Christ reaches fulfillment. 1 Thess 5:3; Luke 19:41-46; Matt 23:13. As we stand on the tipping point, we must realize that which is more precious, truth in God's word over compliance to man's rules.
Acts 14:22 - strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
peely

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-04 10:15:14

  The Organization focuses on their belief the the "great tribulation" of Rev. 7:14 is Phase One of the end, with Armageddon being Phase Two. For them, it is a future event tied to the attack on the Great Harlot. This distracts us from the real tribulation true Christians are undergoing now. I concur with you: The great tribulation is already underway.

Comment by AFRICAINE on 2014-11-04 10:28:14

Love the love on this site - busy digesting this post and the comments - Thanks once again for your efforts here ALL of you !

Comment by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-11-04 11:00:16

I love this quote you made Meleti:
"After such ones achieve actual human perfection at the end of the Millennium and then pass the final test, they will be in position to be declared righteous for everlasting human life."
It made me realize how double our thinking as JW's really is. I remember staunchly defending ourselves against my bible students in the past that JW definitely believe in faith based salvation. But really I was using the scriptures to defend that position, rather then the true position of the society.
Reading quotes like this makes me realize that I was probably wrong all along about the real teaching of salvation. It's funny because I could probably get many brothers to agree that our salvation is faith based and not work based. Yet most will also thereafter fully ascribe to the above quote, revealing in fact that they are worked based.
It's absolutely disgusting what is cited in that quote. In effect, we are working our own salvation. It's US who pass the test, and WE EARN eternal life. The entire message is so contrary to the gospel, which clearly states that it was the finished work of our Lord Jesus that saved us, and that by our faith we are declared righteous, and that our works are counted to us as righteousness.

Comment by kev c on 2014-11-05 15:33:20

I think the problem that ive got is not that there is two hopes heavenly and earthly im sure there is .but its the fact that the watchtower are choosing for themselves who fits each profile ..when the invitation to reach out for the heavenly hope or the earlier ressurection as paul called it .is open to all christians . And then its god who chooses on whom he his willing to bestow the heavenly reward for many are invited but few are chosen ..there may well be a limited number that will finally be ruling with christ .but at least let jesus decide who he wants with him .perhaps the rest may well be part of those in subjection on earth .kev

Comment by markchristopher on 2014-11-11 03:38:38

ilovejesus333
Hi
In the greek scriptures, the word immortal is only mentioned a few times. First it states that only God is immortal 1 Tim 6:16“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,
Then in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul talks about the bodies that they are to be clothed in at the resurrection."For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality".
Eternal and everlasting are interchangeable
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting (aiōnion)life.
The greek word (aiōnion) means everlasting or eternal
So, strictly speaking first century anointed christians hoped for everlasting life in an immortal body and only God is truly immortal.
We all have mortal bodies at this time, meaning our bodies are subject to death.The opposite to that is to have a body that does not die, immortal body.
Lets assume.If Gods original plan was for Adam to have everlasting life then he would not have originally a mortal body.The flesh would have fallen into mortality and eventually death.
Also, Adam was banished from the tree of life .But, In Revelation Jesus Christ speaks to anointed christians at Ephesus, saying “Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”
The need to eat from the tree of life is not the promise of self sustaining immortality.But more of a dependance and recognition that only God is truly immortal and through continued obedience we can have endless life.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-11-11 07:36:45

  I wonder sometimes if we might be coming at this from the wrong angle. The meaning of many English words have changed radically, even diametrically, over the years. "Bully" and "nice" come to mind. Words are merely symbols--whether uttered or written--that represent realities. Words should always remain the servants of meaning and never become its masters.
  I think we need to look at the Scriptures to determine what, if any, difference there can be between "eternal", "everlasting", and "immortal". To this end I've opened a new topic on DTT. See Eternal, Everlasting, and Immortal if you're interested in joining the discussion.
  There is the con

  • Reply by ilovejesus333 on 2014-11-14 22:46:12

    I think you could be on to something there Meliti, It appears I need to address my view on the meaning of Immortality again in view of the scripture at 1 Cir 15;53
    As you say "Words should always remain the servants of meaning and never become its masters."

• Reply by ilovejesus333 on 2014-11-14 22:17:07

  Hi again Mark
  OOPS forgot about that scripture 1 Cor 15;53
  Back to the drawing board !!