Quite understandably, a change of this nature can create some genuine apprehension. Some have voiced concern that we do not become yet another religion under yet another form of human rule—another ecclesiastical hierarchy. Typical of this thought is a comment made by StoneDragon2K.
Avoiding Historical Repetition
It has been said that those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We who back this forum are of a single mind. We find the idea of following in the pattern of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses—or that of any similar ecclesiastical body—thoroughly abhorrent. Having seen where this leads, we want no part of it. Disobedience to Christ results in death. The words which will continue to guide us as we progress in understanding of God's Word are these:
“But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (Mt 23:8-12)
Yes indeed! We are all brothers! Only one is our leader; only one, our teacher. This does not mean a Christian cannot teach, for how else can he explain the good news of the Christ? But in imitation of Jesus, he will strive to never teach of his own originality. (More on this in Part 2.)
The above reminder was just one of many our Lord imparted to his disciples, though this one in particular required a lot of repetition. It seemed they were constantly arguing over who would be first, even at the Last Supper. (Luke 22:24) Their concern was for their own place.
While we may promise to stay free of this attitude, these are just words. Promises can, and often are, broken. Is there any way we can guarantee this won’t happen? Is there any means by which we can all protect ourselves from “wolves in sheep’s clothing”? (Mt 7:15)
Indeed there is!
The Leaven of the Pharisees
Seeing his disciples' desire for prominence, Jesus gave them this warning:
“Jesus said to them: “Keep your eyes open and watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”” (Mt 16:6)
Whenever the publications I’ve studied all my life touched on this Scripture, it was always to focus on the meaning of leaven. Leaven is a bacteria which is applied to many things, such as bread dough. It only takes a little bit to spread into the entire mass. The bacteria multiply and feed, and as a by-product of their activity, produce gas which causes the mass of dough to rise. Baking kills the bacteria and we’re left with the type of bread we enjoy so much. (I love a good French Baguette.)
The ability of leaven to permeate a substance in a quiet, unseen manner serves as an apt metaphor for both positive and negative spiritual processes. It was in a negative sense that Jesus used it to refer to the quietly corrupting influence of the Sadducees and Pharisees. Verse 12 of Matthew 16 shows that the leaven was "the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees." However, there were many false teachings in the world at that time. Teachings from Pagan sources, teachings of educated philosophers, even teachings of libertines. (1Co 15:32) What made the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees particularly relevant and dangerous was its source. It came from the religious leaders of the nation, men considered holy and who were esteemed.
Once those men were removed from the scene, as happened when the Jewish nation was destroyed, do you think their leaven ceased to exist?
Leaven is self-propagating. It can lie dormant until put in contact with a food source and then it begins to grow and spread. Jesus was about to depart and leave the welfare of the congregation in the hands of his apostles and disciples. They would do works even greater than Jesus did, which could lead to feelings of pride and self-worth. (John 14:12) What corrupted the religious leaders of the Jewish nation could also corrupt those taking the lead in the Christian congregation if they failed to obey Jesus and humble themselves. (James 4:10; 1 Peter 5:5,6)
How could the sheep protect themselves?
John Gives Us a Way to Protect Ourselves
It is worthy of note that John's second letter contains some of the last words ever written under divine inspiration. As the last living apostle, he knew he would soon be leaving the congregation in the hands of others. How to protect it once he’d departed?
He wrote the following:
“Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2Jo 9-11)
We must view this in the context of the times and culture in which it was written. John is not suggesting that a Christian is not allowed to even say a “Hello!” or “Good Morning” to someone who does not bring the teaching of the Christ with him. Jesus dialogued with Satan, certainly the foremost apostate. (Mt 4:1-10) But Jesus did not fellowship with Satan. A greeting in those days was more than a simple “Hello” in passing. By warning Christians not to receive such a man into their homes, he is speaking of befriending and socializing with someone who brings a contrary teaching.
The question then becomes, What teaching? This is critical, because John isn’t telling us to break off friendship with everyone who simply doesn’t agree with us. The teaching he refers to is “the teaching of the Christ.”
Again, the context will help us understand his meaning. He wrote:
"The older man to the chosen lady and to her children, whom I truly love, and not only I but also all those who have come to know the truth, 2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever. 3 There will be with us undeserved kindness, mercy, and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, with truth and love."
"4 I rejoice very much because I have found some of your children walking in the truth, just as we received commandment from the Father. 5 So now I request you, lady, that we love one another. (I am writing you, not a new commandment, but one that we had from the beginning.) 6 And this is what love means, that we go on walking according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should go on walking in it." (2 John 1-6)
John speaks of love and truth. These are intertwined. He also refers to these as the things “heard from the beginning”. There is nothing new here.
Now Jesus didn’t load us down with a lot of new commandments to replace the old ones of the Mosaic Law. He taught that the law could be summed up by two pre-existing commandments: Love your neighbor as yourself, and love Jehovah with your whole being. (Mt 22:37-40) To these he added a new commandment.
“I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another.” (Joh 13:34)
Therefore, we can safely conclude that when John speaks in verse 9 of those who do not remain in the teaching of Christ, he speaks of the teaching of love with truth that was imparted from God through Jesus to his disciples.
It follows as night does day that the corrupting leaven of human leaders would cause a Christian to depart from the divine teaching of love and truth. Since man always dominates man to his injury, a religion in which men rule others cannot be loving. If we are not filled with God’s love, then the truth also cannot be in us, for God is love and only through love can we come to know God, the source of all truth. (1 John 4:8; Ro 3:4)
How can we love God if we misrepresent him with false teachings? Will God love us in that case? Will he give us his spirit if we teach lies? The spirit of God produces truth in us. (John 4:24) Without that spirit, a different spirit from a wicked source enters in and produces fruits of falsehood. (Mt 12:43-45)
When Christians are corrupted by the leaven of the Pharisees—the leaven of human leadership—they do not remain in the teaching of the Christ which is love and truth. Unimaginable horror can result. If you think I speak in hyperbole, just remember that the 30-years war, the 100-years war, the World Wars, the Holocaust, the near-elimination of the South, Central, and North American indigenous populations - were all horrors perpetrated by God-fearing Christians dutifully obeying their leaders.
Now a Jehovah’s Witness will surely object to being lumped in with blood-stained Christendom. It is both true and laudable that Witnesses have a solid record of remaining neutral as respects the wars and conflicts of the nations. And if that were all that was required to be free of the leaven of the Pharisees, there would be cause for boasting. However, the effects of this contamination can manifest in ways far worse than that of wholesale slaughter. As surprising as that may seem, consider that those who are cast into the deep, wide sea with a millstone around their neck are not those who kill by the sword, but those who stumble the little ones. (Mt 18:6) If we take a man’s life, Jehovah can resurrect him, but if we steal his soul, what hope is left? (Mt 23:15)
They Did Not Remain in the Teaching of the Christ
In speaking of “the teaching of the Christ”, John spoke about the commandments they had received from the beginning. He added nothing new. In fact, the new revelations from Christ transmitted through John were by then already part of the inspired record. (Scholars believe the book of Revelation preceded the writing of John’s letter by two years.)
Centuries later, men pushed ahead and did not remain in the original teaching by promoting ideas that sprang from the leaven of the Pharisees—that is, the false teachings of a religious hierarchy. Ideas like the Trinity, Hellfire, the immortality of the human soul, predestination, Christ’s invisible presence in 1874, then 1914, and the denial of spirit adoption as sons of God are all new ideas originating from men acting as leaders in place of Christ. None of these teachings can be found in "the teaching of the Christ" which John referred to. They all sprang up afterwards from men speaking of their own originality for their own glory.
“If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.” (Joh 7:17, 18)
Those who gave birth to and nurtured these false doctrines through time have a verifiable historical record of unrighteous acts. Therefore, their teachings are revealed as glory-seeking falsehoods. (Mt 7:16) They have not remained in the teaching of the Christ, but have pushed ahead.
Protecting Ourselves from the Leaven of Human Leadership
If I may borrow from a famous recurring line in a well-known Spaghetti Western, “There are two kinds of people in the world, those that obey God and those that obey men.” From the days of Adam, human history is defined by these two choices.
As we are on the cusp of expanding our ministry with new multilingual sites, the question arises: “How do we keep from becoming just another Christian denomination run by men?” Whatever his virtues and his flaws, C.T. Russell had no intention of allowing one man to take over the Watchtower Society. He made provision in his will for an executive committee of 7 to run things, and J. F. Rutherford was not named to that committee. Yet only months after his death and despite the legal provisions of his will, Rutherford took the helm and eventually dissolved the 7-man executive committee and after that, the 5-man editorial committee, appointing himself as “generalissimo”.
So the question should not be what guarantees that we won’t, like so many others, follow the same downward spiral to human rulership. The question should be: What are you prepared to do should we, or others that follow, take that course? Jesus’ warning of the leaven and John’s direction on how to deal with those corrupted by it were both given to individual Christians, not some church leadership committee or governing body. The individual Christian must act for him or herself.
Maintaining a Spirit of Christian Freedom
Many of us on these sites come from a stringent background of religious dogma which did not allow us to openly question instructions and teachings from our leaders. For us, these sites are an oasis of Christian freedom; places to come and associate with others of like mind; to learn about our Father and our Lord; to deepen our love for both God and men. We don’t want to lose what we have. The question is, how to keep that from happening? The answer is not simple. There are many facets to it. Freedom is a beautiful, yet fragile, thing. It needs to be handled delicately and handled with wisdom. A heavy handed approach, even one intended to protect the freedom we cherish, could end up destroying it.
We will discuss ways in which we can guard and grow what we have planted here in our next post. I look forward, as always, to your comments and reflections.
A Brief Word on the Progress of the New Site
I had hoped to have the site ready by now, but as the saying goes, “the best laid plans of mice and men…” (Or just mice, if you’re a fan of The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.) The learning curve for the Wordpress theme I’ve chosen to enhance the site’s capabilities is a little bigger than I thought. But the key problem is simply a lack of time. Nevertheless, it is still my top priority, so I’ll continue to keep you informed.
Again, thanks for your support and encouragement.
Archived Comments
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Comment by brendaevans32 on 2015-07-10 18:26:41
Greetings to you Meleti and everyone
Thank you Meleti. Thank you.
A little garden, young and promising
Being dug over, rotavated with love and care
Being given the best top soil, with goodness
A lovely place, beautiful and rare
Getting ready to be planted with young sprouts
That could come out in all seasons
Offering different colours to bring enjoyment
A haven of love and reason.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-10 18:44:45
And thank you, brendaevans32 for beautifying the place.
Comment by Dawn Ann on 2015-07-10 22:38:08
Wow, so refreshing Meleti!!! Thank you for the care and much thought you've put in to this new phase or chapter to ensure we maintain the teachings of Christ. I'm feeling excited and looking forward to this journey.
Comment by Wild Olive on 2015-07-11 03:58:28
Wonderful article, very insightful to what can and has happened to truth , May Jehovah bless this attitude that is being taught here and bear some real spiritual fruit
Comment by Skye on 2015-07-11 03:58:35
Meleti, may I just make a point? You say, "the Good News" sites which will focus on the message of the Good News of Salvation, the Kingdom and the Christ ...."
I was curious as to why you put the message in that order; my reason being that the Good News of Salvation, and the Christ are, of course, incorporated into the Good News of the Kingdom of God.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-11 08:29:45
Hi Skye. There is no significance to the order. I wasn't listing them in order of importance or any other criteria, though as I look at it now, I see that I inadvertently listed them in descending alphabetical order. The reason I listed all three is that Jehovah's Witnesses think the good news is "of the kingdom". That phrase, if memory serves me, occurs about 10 times in the NWT, while the good news about the Christ or about Jesus occurs about double that. There are also occurrences of the good news of salvation. Other modifiers are used and often it is simply rendered "good news". So by listing the three most common modifiers, I was showing that our site will not focus myopically on one aspect of the good news, but instead try to provide the fullest understanding possible to reveal all facets of this wondrous hope.
Reply by Search-Truth on 2015-07-12 21:15:06
Excellent Point....
Comment by Katrina on 2015-07-11 05:15:32
Wonderful article, some more spiritual meat to really forward to and I really like the focus.
Thank you for all your work, no doubt you are being blessed spiritually, the forum here has grown and is a place one can trust to come to and know there is no hostility and open discussion in Christian manners.
Comment by father jack on 2015-07-11 07:38:53
Cheers meleti and thanks for your work gods blessing mate its nice to see sometimes we can lighten up as well . The baguettes are nice
Comment by Alien Resident on 2015-07-11 07:53:34
Appreciate your well written and balance article Meleti.
Yes in Jesus day, the Jews incorporated their own self interest traditions, but not necessarily according to what they had received from Jehovah. In fact, some of these traditions brought them into conflict with God's laws. Jesus confronted them matt 15:3-9
And it's a matter of record that, from the very beginning wicked persons made their appearance within early on the Christian cong. The couple Ananias and Sapphira played false to the holy spirit and were put to death by Jehovah, as an example to others. The apostle Paul mentions finding himself in dangers among "false brothers," fellow believers who became enemies of the faith. And certain "superfine apostles," who also opposed him, had become "arrogant, dictatorial, and overbearing" coveting authority and rulership over the congregations. Even Peter fell prey to favouritism —Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor. 4:8; 2 Cor. 11:5, 12,13, 26; Gal. 2:4, 11-14; Phil. 3:18; 1 Peter 5:2-4.
But we await your strategies to overcome and avoid history repeating itself.
Comment by miken on 2015-07-11 12:43:38
"Ideas like the Trinity, Hellfire, the immortality of the human soul, predestination, Christ’s invisible presence in 1874, then 1914, and the denial of spirit adoption as sons of God are all new ideas originating from men acting as leaders in place of Christ. None of these teachings can be found in “the teaching of the Christ” which John referred to."
Meleti you are stating presumptions not all of which those contributing to this and the new site might agree with. For instance the Trinity doctrine. Although not explicitly taught in the NT I believe it is implicitly there and does explain some apparent contradictions between the OT and NT especially with regard to OT scriptures referring to God being applied to our Lord Jesus in the NT. The Watchtower society is well aware of this which is why, for example, they have reversed the wording of Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6 which is being quoted at Hebrews 1:8. The Hebrew of Psalm 45:6 records "Your throne O God and is forever, a sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your Kingdom" (interlinear) not "God is your throne" as in the NWT at both Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8. This is just one of a significant number of scriptures that have been corrupted in the NWT and RNWT to support Watchtower theology and in this particular case to undermine the deity of Christ.Reply by on 2015-07-11 13:12:19
You stated, "This is just one of a significant number of scriptures that have been corrupted in the NWT and RNWT to support Watchtower theology and in this particular case to undermine the deity of Christ."
The "deity of Christ" can only be "undermined" if Christ were, in fact, a deity instead of simply being the Son of God. Since the very topic at issue is the Trinity, you cannot use that as your sole objection. Otherwise, your point amounts to saying, "you can't reject the Trinity, because undermining the deity of Christ is a rejection of the Trinity." Such a claim, even if subtly implied, is a logical fallacy.
In my case, I am firmly convinced that Christ is God's son, not God Himself, and not a "part" of God. To me, the Trinity is one of the most (if not the most) demonstrably false doctrines to come out of Christendom.
One of my favorite rebuttals of the Trinity comes from the account in Matthew 12:22-32 where the Pharisees accused Jesus of expelling demons by the power of Beelzebub:
Then they brought him a demon-possessed man, blind and dumb; and he cured him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. Well, all the crowds were simply carried away and began to say: "May this not perhaps be the Son of David?" At hearing this, the Pharisees said: "This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons." Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Beelzebub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU. But if it is by means of God's spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU. Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his movable goods, unless first he binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.
"On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come
We must ask, if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are coequal, coeternal members of the Trinity, should not they both be afforded equal dignity and respect? One would think so. And yet, Jesus says that a blasphemy spoken against him WILL be forgiven, but a blasphemy spoken against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven.
If the Trinity were a fact, how could that be possible?
To me, the only explanation that makes sense is that there is no Trinity.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-11 14:09:02
To call this a presumption would be to label every Bible-based belief I have a presumption. I firmly believe that the Trinity is untrue. This is not a position I take lightly. I have spent countless hours discussing the doctrines with its proponents in three countries and two languages.
I know there are different definitions concerning the nature of the Trinity is. When I was preaching in South America, I frequently came up against the doctrine in the door-to-door work since 99% of the people I preached to were Catholic. They would all rhyme off the same litany to me when asked if they understood the Trinity.
"Dios el padre, dios el hijo, dios el espíritu santo. Tres dioses distintos, un solo dios verdadero. Son iguales en poder, existencia, y sabiduria."
I heard it repeated so many times that even after all these years, I can still recall it word for word. This is what they are taught and this is what they believe. I know that one of the accusations leveled against Jehovah's Witnesses is the creation of a strawman argument when attacking the Trinity, disproving a version of the Trinity no one believes in. That has not been my personal experience. Perhaps there are versions of the doctrine in higher circles of philosophical debate that are not known to the rank-and-file Catholics I encountered, but the fact is, the teaching as disseminated to the average church goer is as stated above. This, as well as the refined versions of the doctrine I've come across, have failed to convince me that there is any basis for the doctrine in Scripture. So when I denounce it along with the immortality of the human soul and Hellfire as false and unscriptural, it is not done lightly, nor am I speculating. I believe the evidence is hard that the doctrine in its various incarnations is false.
I admit that the majority of Christians in the world will disagree with me on that. That is their right. There will come a time when all such disputes are ended; when we will not need faith anymore because the reality will be upon us. Until then, we will have to be content to agree to disagree.Reply by eyeontorah on 2015-07-12 10:10:22
I believe the Trinity doctrine is a bad way to explain something that's unexplainable in human terms. God is not broken into three parts (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Yet, a the the same time, God is not limited to just those three manifestations. God is One, but at the very same time, God is many. Jesus, when He came to earth, was not a reincarnated angel. He was born of God. The very Spirit of God was borne by a woman as flesh. This Spirit existed before all things.
There is only one Holy Spirit. The I believe the Trinity doctrine is a bad way to explain something that's unexplainable in human terms. God is not broken into three parts (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Yet, a the the same time, God is not limited to just those three manifestations. God is One, but at the very same time, God is many. Jesus, when He came to earth, was not a reincarnated angel. He was born of God. The very Spirit of God was borne by a woman as flesh. This Spirit existed before all things.
There is only one Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit. God's Spirit is the only Spirit that is Holy (separate, set apart).
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God." (1 Sam. 1:2)
This Spirit is One Spirit, yet it is many.
"And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you."(Romans 8:11 LEB)
The same spirit that raised Messiah from the dead, resides in us. This is the same spirit that hovered over the surface of the waters in the beginning. It isn't an impersonal force, it's the Spirit of God.
The Spirit realm does not, and cannot, be fully understood by us humans. We are flesh, and we are miserably limited in our understanding. The trinity doctrine is inaccurate. When we say Jesus isn't God, it's safer to say, but it's still inaccurate. When we say the Holy Spirit isn't God, it's safe, but it's inaccurate.
The NWT has made it even worse. Instead of staying true to the Hebrew/Greek manuscripts, the NWT has changed, reworded, or omitted verses that reveal the deity of Christ. There are many scriptures proving we as humans don't/can't fully understand the Spirit realm. It's so hard to grasp because Jesus is the Son, he's inferior to the Father. Yet at the same time, He is God. I'm sure there's someone who can explain this better than I have lol. But I don't think you can find a person alive to fully understand and explain this mystery.
In regards to the deity of Christ, not only does John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, 17 say that everything was created by Him and through Him, Isaiah 44:24 says specifically that Jehovah alone is responsible for creating the universe and that He was all by Himself when he stretched forth the heavens. Plus, Hebrews 1:10 also says that Jesus was the one who laid the foundations of the earth yet, this passage is actually a direct quote from Psalm 102 in which it is clear that it is Jehovah God who laid the foundations of the earth. Also, if we look at Matthew 26:14-16, we see that it was Jesus who was valued at 30 pieces of silver. But if we look at Zechariah 11:11-13 we see Jehovah prophetically saying, that it was He who was valued at 30 pieces of silver. And finally, Isaiah 45:23 and Romans 14:10-11 are clear that it is before Jehovah that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, and yet Philippians 2:10-11 says that it is at the name of Jesus that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
The bible quotes Jehovah saying "besides me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5) then it says Jesus is God (John 1:1) and calls Jesus the Mighty God and an Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6) and then it quotes Jesus saying "the Father and I are one" (John 10:30) Then says Jesus created all things and thru Him all things were created (Colossians 1:16; John 1:3) then quotes Jehovah saying he alone created everything (Isaiah 44:24)Reply by SinkingPeter on 2015-07-19 22:31:54
Hi eyeontorah,
I agree with you on this point. The nature of God is simply beyond us and all we have is what He has revealed to us. I don't believe trinitarian are completely off base, because there are a lot of scriptures that point to this hard to comprehend relationship between Jesus and the Father. However, I do believe their doctrine explaining it is wrong. So to me, the trinity is an incorrect attempt to explain something difficult.
I was an Arian as a JW completely sure of the personal pre-existence of Jesus. Then, my eyes were opened to the Socinian interpretation of Christ and it made so much sense. Now I'm in the middle sort of where you are. I believe that Christ pre-existed as the Word, but that it was not a personal pre-existence. When the Word became flesh, this is the personal beginning of Jesus. And this helps me relate his earthly existence to myself. Otherwise, I find it hard to do so.
Before, was he God? I'd have to say yes. Not in a trinitarian way, or in a way that equates Jesus to the Father like modalism, but in a completely different sense. I think that Jesus truly is the Son of God in a direct sense.
I also find it interesting to think about the Genesis creation account about God speaking something into creation. And then the Word became flesh. On the one hand, if believing that Jesus first became a person at this point, it would indicate that he originated from a very special part of God. It also is in harmony with the Hebrew poetic style of personification. Only here, God is the poet, and when he personifies something, it then becomes a person in reality. Anyway, I digress.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2015-07-11 14:11:57
Hi miken,
With regard to Hebrew 1:8, the book Truth In Translation explains why both translations are possible. While I'm not a staunch defender of the NWT, where it shines is in unmasking the fraudulent translations to which Trinitarians have so often resorted for support for their theology. In this case, however, the rendering can go either way.
While it's true that God and Jesus are practically interchangeable in some passages of the NT, the Trinity doctrine goes far beyond asserting some kind of equivalence between the two. The concept of three persons in one being, with the necessary attribution of personhood to holy spirit, seems to me to go beyond what's written in the Bible.
Comment by Skye on 2015-07-11 15:15:01
Hi Miken, There's an amazing book which is free online:
"The Only True God" by Eric Chang.
He was a pastor and a devoted Trinitarian for 50 years. And he was wondering how it would be possible to preach the Gospel to Muslims and Jews and through his studies he came to see that trinitarianism was incompatible with the bible. Have a read, I'm sure you'll find it interesting.
Comment by on 2015-07-11 15:46:34
There is a web site http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html more commonly referred to as 'The Trinity Delusion" in which the author goes to very great and animated lengths to refute the Trinity. Those with an interest may find his site informative.
One of the more interesting points he brings up is about the "Shema", the OT verse that says, "The Lord (YHWH) our God is one Lord You must not have any other gods against my face". From the standpoint of the Jews in the first century, how could Jesus convince THEM to believe in the Trinity in a way that did not violate that Law?
Further, Jesus himself was a Jew subject to the Law. How could Jesus teach AND obey the Law himself, if he were "God" in some manner? He would be somehow teaching that there is "one" God and yet at the same time, by his own existence as a purported part of the Trinity, give lie to the very Law he claimed he would not break the smallest part of. That would create a massive inconsistency in what Jesus taught and would make him out to be a liar.
To me, that is an enormous logical flaw that a Trinitarian can never overcome. Nothing a Trinitarian could say could refute this. The Trinity is unquestionably false.
Comment by father jack on 2015-07-12 09:22:01
You can go on about these things for ever and a day we just need to believe that he's the son of God and have faith and love one another . I don't know how many countless arguments I've heard over the years in support of either doctrine . I've formed my own viewpoint and that's all you can do . Just love people that's all that was his main message love in action not division .
Reply by eyeontorah on 2015-07-12 10:22:01
I agree with you brother. Belief in the trinity doctrine is not what brings, or takes away, salvation. It's belief that the Son of God died for our sins that determines salvation. Once we put faith in our King as our ransom, we should continue walking in the Spirit of love that he walked. It's not our own human knowledge that saves us. Faith, grace and love is what will save us.
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-12 12:26:56
Hopefully once the "Good News" site is set up we can broaden out and get a clearer understanding of what exactly will determine our salvation through scripture; I see from the comments here that that is something which we can benefit from and there is much more that we can learn from the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Good News of the Kingdom of God. Yes, we must have love for one another, but we must not forget that truth and love are inseparable and this is where knowledge and understanding of the gospel comes in.
2 Thes 2:10-12 "and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
We know that if we do not have love the truth is nothing, but without love of truth there is no salvation. In order to find the truth necessary for salvation we have a lot of very enjoyable and interesting study ahead. Let's us not be defeated and say we cannot understand - Jesus said that if we remain in his word that we would know the truth.Reply by eyeontorah on 2015-07-12 12:58:18
I agree Skye. We are to walk in the Spirit of true love that our Messiah walked. We are to become imitators of Christ. (1 Cor. 11:1)
Love is not what we feel it is, love is what the scriptures say it is.
"For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" 1 John 5:3
Love for God moves us to obey Him, thus imitating Christ. Love for neighbor moves us to treat them as we want to be treated.
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-12 13:35:56
Thanks eyeontorah. I was thinking about the scriptures you mentioned in your comment relating to the trinity. I would love to discuss these with you because I have studied some of the points you make, and believe there are some satisfactory answers from scripture. This is what I mean when I say that hopefully when the Good News site is set up we will have the opportunity to discuss these scriptures in more detail. Of course I am sure you will agree that because we do not understand something, that does not mean there is no scriptural explanation!
Reply by father jack on 2015-07-12 14:46:15
Tell you what I think sky e that that scripture has its fulfillment sometime in the future during the presence of the lawless one who presents lying signs and portents in order to deceive if possible even the chosen ones . It seems that at some point toward the end knowledge of God will increase as Daniel said perhaps by means of the 2 witnesses who back up their message with signs and holy spirit perhaps proving what the real truth is. But also there may be those who prefer unrighteousness instead and will let themselves be deceived by the man of lawlessness and get to believe the lie .
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-12 14:56:06
Of course, you may wish to have this discussion in a private exchange, but should you prefer, DiscussTheTruth.com will allow others to participate. It is, of course, your choice.
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-12 15:56:18
father jack, 2 Thes 2:1-12 is of course referring to the antichrist and the day of the Lord (parousia). With regard to scriptures I quoted v 10-12, although this is still relating to the same, it also makes clear to us now the importance of believing TRUTH and not ERROR, and that salvation depends on love of truth. So even now, we must have a love of truth.
Scriptures which come to mind in harmony with this: Truth is a fruit of the spirit. Matt 7:21-23 which shows that if you accept falsehoods you will be deceived. In Romans 1 it explains that God gave them over to sinful desires because they exchanged the truth for a lie. Etc. Etc.
Comment by emilyjeff on 2015-07-12 13:31:54
I think it is admirable that “the six brothers who are now involved in the Beroean Pickets and Discuss the Truth forums came to the realization that we need to do more if we are to obey Jesus in publicizing the Good News of the kingdom…” However I did notice that there are no “sisters” involved in these efforts, or perhaps they are simply in a support category. Also in the present post We Are All Brothers – Part 1 again where are the sisters? Shouldn’t the title be We Are All Children of God or at least We Are All Brothers and Sisters? To quote Paul: You see, every one of you who has been baptized into the Messiah has put on the Messiah. There is no longer Jew or Greek; there is no longer slave or free; there is no “male and female”; you are all one in the Messiah, Jesus. Galatians 3:27.28 NTW Under Jewish law circumcision in some way marked out the men as having the sign of the covenant but with the coming of and the death of Jesus a new covenant came into being in which all who had faith in the faithfulness of the Messiah were seen by God as the Messiah’s people with no distinctions.
As for the discussion of the Trinity I think it has become an unfortunate barrier between Christians. Before the Babylonia captivity of Israel God dwelt with his people in the Tabernacle in what has been called the Shekinah, or Divine Presence. These monotheistic people were comfortable with the idea of God being present in the Tabernacle and yet not confined to just that one place. I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to understand that God cannot be confined to our labels of God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit. “The same is true of Philippians 2:5-11. Paul this time draws on the fiercely monotheistic theology of Isaiah 40-55 to celebrate Christ’s universal lordship: “At the name of Jesus”, he declares, “every knee shall bow.” Isaiah has YHWH defeating the pagan idols and being enthroned over them: Paul has Jesus exalted to a position of equality with “the Father” because he has done what, in Jewish tradition, only the one God can do. It is important to note here that, although Philippians 2:5-11 remains thoroughly within the Jewish world of thought, precisely from that world it confronts the pomp and pagan pretensions of Caesar. The language is reminiscent of imperial acclamation-formulae: Jesus, not Caesar, is the “servant” who is now to be hailed as “lord” and “savior.” Jewish monotheistic theology with Jesus himself as its focus confronts pagan power with what is essentially a Jewish kingdom-of-God theology, which of course goes back to the earthly, human Jesus himself.”(1)
The following verses are taken from the RNWT and if you will compare this passage to other translations you will see how the Watchtower has subtly changed the meaning by adding the word “other” four times to suggest that Jesus was created first and then through him all other things were created: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist.” Colossians 1:15-17 Revised New World Translation
Here is the same Scripture from the English Standard Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:15-17
I believe this change is but another attempt to twist God’s Word to accommodate Watchtower doctrine. We know that Jesus is the first born in preeminence and the first born from the dead. They should check out Proverbs 30:6: Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. NIV
The apostle Paul was so deeply committed to keeping the Christian congregations as one people, the Messiah’s people. It is a shame that Christianity has become so divided by manmade divisions. We should all be one people in the Messiah and show this by the love among us which is after all the mark of a Christian.
I do wish you the best of luck on your new Christian endeavor.
1. Jesus and the Identity of God – N. Thomas Wright 1998Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-12 14:54:29
The title is taken from Matthew 23:8, "But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers."
Reply by J-A-T on 2015-07-13 03:47:35
Hi emilyjeff,
you said: “Shouldn’t the title be We Are All Children of God or at least We Are All Brothers and Sisters?” and then you quote Paul, to the effect that in Christ there is neither male nor female, but you take no note that both he and the rest of NT writers always address the members of congregations with the term ‘brothers,’ never ‘brothers and sisters.’
We are therefore forced to conclude that Paul with the term ‘brothers’ either only ever addresses male Christians, with the intent of ignoring the sisters, or that the term ‘brothers’ automatically includes the female ‘brothers’ of the species as well.
Perhaps Paul was wagging his ‘gender studies’ at the ‘Frankfurt School.’
Not wanting to be ‘triggering,’ or causing ‘the vapours’ here, but that is just how the Holy Spirit views these ‘gender issues.’
Further, you ask if ‘it is too much of a stretch to understand that God cannot be confined to our labels of God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit,’ except that those are not OUR labels, but those given to us under inspiration, for those who respect the word of God.
Also, if Jesus does things that are spoken of as being done by YHWH in the OT, it is clear that Jesus acts as the commissioned agent of God, His servant - a position that is distinct from and below that of the Father, who gave Him the power and glory for a specific purpose and a limited time.
It seems to me that people who do not want to know God, prefer Him to be mysterious and unknowable.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-13 08:37:58
J-A-T,
Reviewing your posts here and on Discuss the Truth, I've seen that your words often provocative, lacking the tactfulness that contributes to an edifying exchange of thought. You say, "not wanting to be 'triggering,' or causing 'the vapours' here...", then you set about to do just that; or are you truly unaware that your words and use of sarcasm are off-putting to many, myself included.
It also seems presumptuous for you to tell us how God views gender issues, or anything else for that matter. For his view on things, we have his written word.
If you are able to contribute something insightful from Scripture, then by all means do so. But please temper your words. Please read your comments over several times, even putting them aside for a few hours then coming back to them with a fresh eye. You can also send them to a trusted friend for his/her viewpoint and editing.
Even when your words are true and in accord with God's word, they should be "gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should answer each person." (Col. 4:6)Reply by J-A-T on 2015-07-13 21:50:24
It seems like every time I hold up a mirror, people don't like what they see.
Bad me, I must not do that.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-13 22:19:07
When you hold up a mirror, it is yourself that you see, is it not?
Comment by on 2015-07-12 13:40:38
Regarding the trinity and similar debates, we have to decide just what sort of Christian we want to be, assuming that's what we want. There are many people of the mind that "God loves me, Jesus loves me, I am good to people, that's all I need to know."
Well, maybe that's all they WANT to know, but is it all they need? That is the question. So many times I have seen such debates end with, "well, just have faith, and one day all our questions will be answered". For some people, that answer is good enough, but it would seem at odds with what the Bible tells us. If Jesus said it means everlasting life to take in knowledge and know the true God, it does not sound like simply garnering the bare minimum of scriptural facts is sufficient.Reply by father jack on 2015-07-12 18:55:27
We do have to try to press on to accurate knowledge of God and his son . My point is this we can't know every detail about them even Paul said we see through a hazy outline . The man had revelations given to him and could perform miracles an evidence of holy spirit . Yet there were many things he did not know . We just have to try and work with what we do know what has been revealed to us individually . I know this that having accurate knowledge of God is about knowing his personality and god is love . If we do not have love we have not come to know God at all . The details may become much clearer in the future . We should not get to hung up on endless theological debates for which there is no clear answer . And leads to division and a tendency to show arrogance and lack of love and respect for one another . We must try to be holy just as god is holy .
Reply by on 2015-07-14 09:59:19
You are right about not allowing debates to lead us into unloving attitudes. No one knows or understands the scriptures perfectly. Humility requires us to admit that we could be wrong. Still, we can't be swayed by every new idea that comes along. We need very good reasons for changing what we believe to be true, and base a change of view on someone's clever reasoning or force of personality. Coming to an accurate knowledge of God is a lifetime effort, one that will not be completed before we are gone. The thing that is important is to try, to make the effort to learn. We are supposed to "prove to ourselves" what the will of God is, and not let someone else prove it for us. Coming to know the true God is not a job for the lazy. It takes long, hard, sustained effort to know Him.
Comment by Dawn Ann on 2015-07-12 14:11:07
Emilyjeff, you made some very good points regarding the inclusion of sisters, and the NWT translation of Col 1:15-17. The Trinity doctrine is always a confusing topic for me because there are arguments and supporting documentation for both sides.
Comment by brendaevans32 on 2015-07-12 14:58:23
I would like to leave a thought with you, which is a regular feature in the answers I give in the studying - simply keep focused on Jehovah and His teachings. I know that I am sharing with you something you already do, but sometimes, it is nice to just go back to basics, study and think in faith, spirit and love.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-12 15:49:40
Thank you, BrendaEvans.
Comment by emilyjeff on 2015-07-12 15:52:26
Thank you, Meleti, for the clarification. Apparently you chose to take that quotation from an older version of the New World Translation. I prefer the versions below since I like to think of all of us as the one family of God, regardless of gender or race.
Don't let anyone call you 'Rabbi,' for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters. NLT
But don't make others call you Rabbi, because you have only one teacher, and you are all followers. God’s Word Translation
You mustn’t be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have one teacher, and you are all one family. KNTReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-12 16:21:39
The Greek word in Mt 23:8 translated in the NWT as brother is adelphos which means "brothers". Unfortunately, we don't have a gender-neutral word in English that does not carry the connotation of the male vs. the female. Few languages do. However, from the context, we can see that Jesus wasn't implying that it would be okay for women to call men Rabbi, leader and Father, but not for men.
The purpose of my post was to focus on the need for us to remember we are all brothers, and by that I mean spiritual siblings. There is a danger to the flock should any one of us, male or female, exalt him or herself to a position of leadership and authority over the flock.Reply by on 2015-07-12 19:14:46
I believe Spanish does it the same. Their "hermanos" means a group of two or more brothers and/or sisters regardless of gender. It's important not to get overly wrapped up in language issues, since these are influenced by imperfect human trends and forces over many centuries. No language today is perfect. We must also be mindful that many, many Bible passages use words in a general/generic sense, as opposed to the high-precision, hyper-literate, computerized world of today. Their mindset was much different than ours, and they reasoned on matters more informally. It would be a mistake to read into the Bible an extreme precision that the ancient native speakers did not themselves employ.
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2015-07-21 01:28:02
Man was created first. Then woman out of man and every man out of woman thereafter. Thankfully, we are all children of God.
sw
Comment by billy on 2015-07-12 18:12:38
Im looking forward to the new website and appreciate your time and effort Meleti that you have gone to in producing this site and the new ones to come - this is my only source of spiritual gathering
as far as the trinity doctrine goes - the word "trinity" is not in the bible so that should be a clear indicator that it doesnt exist - the concept is not clear in the bible so its a bit rough to accuse someone of not speaking the "truth" if the" truth" is not clear
if we just stick to whats actually written in the bible i think that will help not divide people into the 2 camps - as we can see how horrendous this can become with the early churches killing people for not believing in this doctrine of the trinity
LOVE is the most important pursuit that i find when reading the scriptures - as love will want to find and practice truth - love for God and man is what Jesus taught
"The good samaritan" was a good example on how to practice this - the love shown to the helpless man was not based on his religious doctrines
its wonderful to see so many here and I recognize some names from the past years who have commented on other sites
Comment by Hoon on 2015-07-13 13:50:37
Will the previous entries be saved for future reference? Those of us in the ex-jw community would like to know.
Thank you.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-13 15:26:29
Yes, nothing will be lost. However, I'd like to improve the categories for purposes of searching. I'd also like to add a list of topics. I'll be explaining this in detail shortly.
Thanks.
Comment by eyeontorah on 2015-07-13 16:21:17
I received a letter from the elders Saturday. They have sent me an invitation to a "Judicial hearing". They feel like I can "undermine the confidence of others in Jehovah’s arrangement". It's interesting they mentioned me believing in the governing body and 1914 as important, yet they didn't even mention our Father or His Son. I'm thinking about writing them a letter of my own...
Reply by Skye on 2015-07-13 17:31:05
eyeontorah, I don't know anything about your situation, but if it's any help I can explain a bit of how it was for me. It was hard, but at the same time it was truly wonderful to finally realise that I could worship God in the way I wanted to, that is in the way that He wanted me to - in spirit and truth.
I wish you well, brother. Acts 14:22Reply by MM on 2015-07-13 22:25:22
Thanks Skye I really appreciate that.
Reply by father jack on 2015-07-14 10:30:07
Just mess them about its the same old story it's all on their own terms your on trial your not allowed any witnesses . There's no real justice . They are only interested that you accept the GB as gods channel of communication . It's a witch hunt . It doesn't matter what the bible really says . They are not interested . This for me was the final proof that showed me that it just cannot be the truth . Let them have their religion and move on to the real truth . God in my opinion is drawing you out .
Comment by Alien resident on 2015-07-13 20:57:44
When your in a fix phil 4:6..if I put myself in there shoes, they probably want clarify what you have been saying...motivation behind your words, is it clarity of current or previous teaching, or something else...only you can answer that, but I might be wrong. I'm fairly new on this site, and I get that there's some of us, how these new and some old doctrines fit scripturally, & we want to explore without being "labelled " whatever. There's an old expression regarding supporters of their team, that is 'there one eyed ', so just be cautious as a serpant and yet innocent as a dove. All the best, brother.
Comment by templelijah on 2015-07-15 19:34:22
In hindsight, I think JF Rutherford made the correct call as for the individual guidance that Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz continued, until the GB "fixed the wheel" in 1976.
Imo, when Rutherford put down board coup, he also put down the first "GB" attempt at a dictatorship that we have today.
And THAT is why Jehovah's witnesses prospered spiritually, at one time. But no more.
Had Rutherford not put it down, the ministry would have been GB lost from the getgo. Think about it. Rutherford killed the first GB coup attempt, that finally was successful by 1976, and JWs have gone from bad to worse, ever since.
Because IMPOSTORS also come in with the shadow boards.
(2 Timothy 3:13) But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.
Paul is talking about wicked men and impostors in the Christian anointed congregation locale, not the world where they came from.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-15 20:48:56
I'm going to have to disagree with you about Rutherford. It was he who launched the coup and become the autocrat or generalissimo (his term) of the Society. There is little about that period of JW history to praise in my opinion. For more details, check out this article.
What we are seeing now is a return to the autocratic rule of Rutherford, though even with the latest excesses, I don't think we've matched his era yet.
Reply by on 2015-07-15 21:26:17
Nostalgia must be a human condition. While I only have 37 years of servitude (I should probably subtract a few years from that total as there was a stretch or two in which my efforts were halfhearted) and didn't witness the Rutherford period first hand, I personally don't see the organization being less controlling 20-30 years ago as compared to now.
30 years ago I recall having to wear a white shirt, with a full suit (not blazer and slacks), with the suit buttoned or risk being pulled from the part or counseled after the fact. I think there was more pressure to be in service and at every meeting as well. Granted the above is completely anecdotal, but as I read older Watchtowers and books it seems they were even more intense in the years prior to me.
I only mention it to provide some perspective, or perhaps a different perspective, to the expression "this is not the religion I grew up in" that I've seen used a few times. If anything, I think the organization has become softer and are less punitive. How long were people disfellowshipped 30 years ago for a "serious offense"? 1-2 years? In my experience it is nowadays a 6 month sentence and you are back in business.
I'm sure there will be somebody with the opposite experience of me, but in total are things really that much worse or different? Aren't we still told we need to believe some borderline asinine things and if we don't we are told we will die? Same deal, different day.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-07-16 07:56:59
Those are valid points. For me, the difference now is a tightening down of a doctrinal nature. We would discuss our differences with views expressed in the Watchtower back in the 70s and 80s, without fear of being disfellowshipped. Now it seems the slightest dissent is dealt with harshly. Perhaps this is the effect of the internet. I'm wondering if a lot of this is due to how vulnerable and exposed to criticism the GB now feel. Their doctrinal insecurity is showing.
Reply by TJBrother on 2015-07-22 09:27:42
I look forward to reading in Portuguese
Comment by We Are All Brothers – Part 2 | Beroean Pickets on 2015-07-23 13:33:56
[…] the first part of the series, we saw that to protect ourselves from the folly of organized religion, we must […]