A consideration of the vine and branches metaphor in John 15:1-8
“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit. For apart from Me you are able to do nothing.” – John 15:5 Berean Literal Bible
What did our Lord mean by “the one abiding in me”?
A while back, Nicodemus asked me for my opinion on that, and I confess I was unprepared to give a considered answer.
The word rendered ‘abide’ here is from the Greek verb, menó, which according to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance means:
“abide, continue, dwell, remain"
"A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) -- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.“
An ordinary use of the word is found at Acts 21:7-8
“We then completed the voyage from Tyre and arrived at Ptol·e·maʹis, and we greeted the brothers and stayed [emeinamen derived from menó] one day with them. 8 The next day we left and came to Caes·a·reʹa, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelizer, who was one of the seven men, and we stayed [emeinamen] with him.” (Ac 21:7, 8)
However, Jesus is using it metaphorically in John 15:5 as there does not appear to be any literal way for a Christian to abide or dwell within Jesus.
The difficulty in understanding what Jesus means stems from the fact that ‘to abide in someone’ is largely nonsensical to the English ear. It may have been so to the Greek listener as well. Whatever the case, we do know that Jesus made use of common words in uncommon ways to express new ideas that came with Christianity. For instance, ‘sleep’ when referring to ‘death’. (John 11:11) He also pioneered the use of agape, an uncommon Greek word for love, in ways that were new and have become uniquely Christian.
Determining his meaning becomes even more challenging when we consider that Jesus often dropped the word ‘abide’ altogether as he does at John 10:38:
“But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” (John 10:38 KJV)
My previous theological training would have me believe that “abide in” can be accurately rendered “in union with”, but I’m loathe to fall back on out-of-the-box thinking, knowing how easily that can lead to following men. (See Addendum) So I put this question to the back of my mind for a couple of weeks until my daily Bible reading brought me to John chapter 15. There, I found the parable of the vine and the branches, and everything just fell into place. [i]
Let's consider it together:
“I am the true vine and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch not bearing fruit in Me, He takes it away; and every one bearing fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit. 3Already you are clean by reason of the word that I have spoken to you. 4Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither you, unless you abide in Me.
5I am the vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit. For apart from Me you are able to do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown out like the branch and is dried up, and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and it is burned. 7If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you wish, and to you it will come to pass. 8In this My Father is glorified, that you should bear much fruit, and you shall be My disciples. (John 15:1-8 Berean Study Bible)
A branch cannot live separated from the vine. When attached, it is one with the vine. It abides or lives in the vine, drawing its nutrients from it so as to produce fruit. A Christian draws his life from Jesus. We are the branches feeding off the vine, Jesus, and God is the cultivator or vinedresser. He prunes us, cleans us, makes us healthier, stronger, and more fruitful, but only as long as we remain attached to the vine.
Not only do we abide in Jesus, but he abides in the Father. In fact, his relationship with God can help us to understand our relationship with him. For instance, he does nothing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. He is the image of God, the exact expression of his character. To see the Son, is to see the Father. (John 8:28; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Hebrews 1:3; John 14:6-9)
This does not make Jesus into the Father any more than a Christian’s 'being in Christ' makes him into Jesus. Yet the fact that we abide in Jesus implies more than simply being one with him in goals, thoughts, and activities. After all, if I am united with someone or in union with him, I will share the same goals and motivation, but if that person passes away, I can continue to express the same thoughts, motivations, and goals as before. I don’t depend on him. This is not the case with us and Christ. Like a branch on a vine, we draw from him. The spirit he gives keeps us going, keeps us alive spiritually.
Since Jesus is in the Father, then to see Jesus is to see the Father. (John 14:9) It follows that if we abide in Jesus, then to see us is to see Him. People should look at us and see Jesus in our actions, attitudes and speech. All of that is only possible if we remain attached to the vine.
Just as Jesus is the image of God, the Christian should be the image of Jesus.
“. . .those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” (Ro 8:29)
God is love. Jesus is the perfect reflection of his Father. Therefore, Jesus is love. Love is what motivates all his actions. After introducing the vine and branches illustration Jesus again uses menó by saying:
“As the Father has loved Me, I also have loved you. Abide (menó) in My Love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and your joy may be full.” (John 15:9-11)
By dwelling, abiding, or living in the love of the Christ, we reflect him to others. This reminds us of another similar expression also from the book of John.
“A new commandment I give to you, that you should love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another.” (John 13:34-35)
The love of the Christ is what identifies us as his disciples. If we can show that love, we are abiding in Christ.
You may see it differently, but for me, to abide in Christ and he in me means that I become the image of Christ. A poor reflection to be sure, for I am so very far from perfect, but nonetheless, an image. If Christ is in us, then we all will reflect something of his love and his glory.
Addendum
A Unique Rendering
Since many of those visiting this site are, or were, Jehovah’s Witnesses, they will be familiar with the unique way that the NWT renders menó in every one of the 106 occurrences where it appears, or is absent but implied. Thus John 15:5 becomes:
“I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in union with me (menōn en emoi, ‘abides in me’) and I in union with him (kagō en auto, ‘I in him’), this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all.” (Joh 15:5)
Inserting the words, "in union with Christ" to replace "abide in Christ", or simply, "in Christ", actually changes the meaning. We've already seen that a person can be in union with another without depending on that person. For instance, we have many ‘unions’ in our culture.
- Trade Union
- Labor Union
- Credit Union
- European Union
All are united in purpose and goals, but each member does not draw life from the other nor does each one’s ability to stay on purpose depend on the others. This is not the message that Jesus is giving at John 15:1-8.
Understanding the Position of the NWT
There appears to be two reasons for this particular rendering, one intentional and the other unwitting.
The first is the tendency of the Organization to go to extremes to distance itself from the Trinity doctrine. Most of us will accept that the Trinity does not correctly reflect the unique relationship between Jehovah and his only-begotten Son. Nevertheless, there is simply no justification to alter the text of the Holy Scriptures to better support a belief, even if that belief happens to be true. The Bible as originally written is all the Christian needs to establish truth. (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Hebrews 4:12) Any translation should strive to preserve the original meaning as closely as possible so that no vital nuance of meaning is lost.
The second reason is not likely due to a conscious decision—though I could be wrong about that. Either way, the rendering will seem natural to a translator steeped in the belief that 99% of all Christians are not anointed with Holy Spirit. ‘Abiding in Christ’ and being ‘in Christ’ depicts a particularly intimate relationship, one denied those who are not believed to be Christ's brothers, i.e., the JW Other Sheep. It would be hard to continually read those passages—after all, there are 106 of them—and not come away with the idea that the relationship the Other Sheep are supposed to have with God and Jesus—friends, not children or brothers—doesn't quite fit.
So by rendering “in union with” in all those places, it is easier to sell the idea of a more pedestrian relationship, one where the Christian is united with Christ in purpose and thought, but not much else.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are all about being united, which means being obedient to instructions from on high. Additionally, Jesus is depicted as our exemplar and our role model with little emphasis given to his role as the one to whom every knee should bend. So being in union with him dovetails nicely with that mindset.
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[i] A frequent comment made by those JWs who have awakened is that they now feel a freedom they’ve never experienced. I am convinced that this sense of freedom is a direct result of being open to the spirit. When one abandons prejudice, preconceptions, and enslavement to the doctrines of men, the spirit is free to work its wonders and suddenly truth after truth opens up. This is nothing to boast about, for it is not of our doing. We do not achieve it through force of will or intellect. This is a free gift from God, a loving Father happy that his children are drawing closer to him. (John 8:32; Acts 2:38; 2 Corinthians 3:17)
Archived Comments
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Comment by Nicodemus on 2016-05-27 12:28:01
Great article Meleti! An excellent and heart warming discussion of the close personal relationship we have with Christ.
Looking forward to your take on the flip side:
2 Cor 13:5
Comment by Nicodemus on 2016-05-27 12:32:30
Also - is there something to the fact that we are literally 'in Christ' as members of his 'body'? If so is there some literal sense here as well:
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (Rom 8:9-11)
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. (John 14:23)
Comment by miken on 2016-05-28 16:28:09
" And in him (Jesus) you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit". Ephesians 2:22, NIV
With regard to "in " or "in union with", if John had in mind "union with" rather than" in" he had a perfectly good Greek word he could have used. The word is Sun, Strong's ref 4862 "denoting union; with or together"
"I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith". Ephesians 3:16, 17. NIV
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me..." Galatians 2:20. NIV
"...Do you not realise that Christ Jesus is in you..." 2 Corinthians 13:5. NIV
Of course "union with" is not in the Greek and has been added by the Watchtower translators of the NWT principally by Fred Franz. Meleti has suggested reasons why above.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-05-29 11:05:07
Thanks for pointing us to the Greek word for "union". That drives home the point that Jesus and the Bible writers intended something else other than a simple union when they spoke of being "in Christ". Good Scripture references as well. Helps round out our understanding.
Comment by Yehorakam on 2016-05-28 20:01:13
What a beautiful article Meleti. It has stuck a chord with me and because I have a day off, I can express myself a little more (Sorry :( ) When I "awakened" two years ago, I cannot describe in words the automatic shift my mind made to being attracted to Christ and wanting to be like him. That desire was there as a JW, but it changed, personalized and intensified after my awakening. It was a process that mainly happened without my doing. I can only believe that it was the HS that made the change, for it was not just a mental process that I initiated or pushed upon me by someone else. It was like a new heart was put in me. Part of that change was a love and concern for people I hardly knew, a more sincere concern than when I was a JW, because when I was a JW my concern for people was with the goal of giving a witness and perhaps helping someone to become a JW. That type of concern is not sincere, for there is in fact a hidden motive. The motive is not a wicked one, but it is a hidden motive nonetheless. True Christian love as Christ showed, is not shown with an expectation of something in return.
With regards to "abiding in Christ", I will reveal some personal feelings. Shortly after my "awakening," I understood this situation of "abiding in Christ" to be as Jesus described in John 6:53,54:
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the LAST DAY." (capitals mine...digressing again to emphasize another proof the resurrection has not yet occurred).
As you remark Meleti, Jesus used a perfect illustration of a vine. He probably used that so that we could grasp the meaning of what he really wanted to say when he used the greek word: "menó." Your insight is excellent. Certainly, in a vine with branches, the branches are more than "in union" with the vine stock. They are STUCK or CONNECTED to the vine and FEEDING on the vine (again the idea of "feeding" on Christ from John 6). Any separation of the branch would result in its dying. The only way to receive everlasting life would be to be part of the vine naturally, or being grafted to the vine and adhering to the vine as a source of nourishment and "become a sharer of the richness of the olives' root" (Rom 11:17).
How about a fetus? Maybe you could say a fetus is "in union" with his/her mother. But, that expression would be rejected by almost everyone as an expression that fails to describe the depth of dependency or connection to remain ALIVE and GROW so as to become a full grown infant. That mother's husband or family members could be "in union" with her, but that doesn't compare to the fetus' "union" with his/her mother.
I have a close relationship with a fellow brother in Christ who is so Christ-like it's unbelievable. It seems he is always a step ahead of me in understanding the sacred secrets because his awakening occurred a few years before mine. Although I have discovered aspects of the sacred secret on my own, he has told me things of the sacred secret that I didn't know. I always listen to him and then verify in the scriptures over a period of weeks. I can't recall often that he has been wrong. We had a conversation about that and he expressed a little sadness that I don't accept what he's told me at first. He has felt somewhat that I don't have trust in him. I told him that I trust him and will always listen to him, but that I have to prove it to myself after study and have the holy spirit convince me. It was only after that conversation that I realized why it felt unnatural to be looking to him as a source of "spiritual food" although the HS is strong with him. My conclusion as to why it is unnatural hit me like a ton of bricks one day: I was connected to Christ as my source!! The idea Paul uses of body members is excellent. The members work together, and some are connected so that they work together, not independently. BUT, each is controlled directly by the head. The head sends the message to each member. The arm does not tell the hand what to do. The hand get's it instructions directly from nerve impulses from the head.
For that reason, I am very keen to listen to others that might be Christ's brothers, but my mind and heart have for some reason been rejecting the tendency to depend on them. A very sad thing is the millions of brothers and sisters that are hanging on every word from the GB. They anxiously wait for the next "adjustment" or "flash of light" coming from them. In the meantime, they sit and do little to let Christ through the HS and god's word guide them to new understandings. They have made themselves completely dependant on the GB as their source of nourishment. That is what I have often referred to as the GB kidnapping their faith....and they have let themselves be kidnapped! For that reason I feel a closeness to those who would maintain a respect for other individuals and take what they say into consideration, but recognize that Christ is their source of nourishment.
To give an example of one thing that does concern me is observing one person telling another to partake of the bread and the wine. Paul made very clear in 1 Cor 11:27-29 that "...whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. First let a man approve himself after SCRUTINY and ONLY THEN let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. For the one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment against himself." (capitals mine). Paul had the authority to TELL others to partake, but instead he encouraged self scrutiny, a self examination under the HS so as to arrive at the correct conclusion. I now understand fully the importance of partaking and I am now a partaker if you want to use the Witnesses expression. Sadly "partaker" holds a special status among JW's, making you one of a special breed, so I hope no one draws any wrong conclusions that I'm attempting to get some status for stating publicly that I am partaking. In my mind, partaking is a conclusion that one comes to through direction of the holy spirit after much meditation and contemplation of how serious it is to become a footstep follower of Christ. I started to partake, not because someone said I should be partaking. I had to come to my own conclusion and examination and waited on the holy spirit to convince me, knowing completely what I was getting into. That involves knowing that you're being baptized into Christ's death and all that involves. It also involves knowing how much hatred you will actually experience. Revelation says there will be a war against us. My contemplation of partaking was as serious as contemplating baptism, and for that reason I think that the idea of partaking goes hand in had with TRUE Christian baptism. Baptism into Christ means baptism into his death and partaking is also a symbol of acceptance of being baptized into his death too. For that reason, when we talk of partaking, I think instead of encouraging someone to partake, it would be better for each person to allow the HS to guide them to the decision after self-scrutiny. They truly need to create their own "connection" with Christ. I would do no good to someone by trying to convince them of that. They should be self-convinced as a result of the HS acting upon them.
A change I also experienced as a result of becoming dependant on Christ is actually speaking with him in prayer. This is something that is hard for me to tell other JW's or ex-JW's on this forum for fear they might misinterpret. Let me explain. First, I cannot explain how hard it was for me to do the first time, because I had spent all 43 years of my life praying to Jehovah. I fully understand that Jehovah is the object of our worship and that he is responsible for everything and I pray to him numerous times in the day. But, after fully understanding Christ's current role (Mat. 28:18; Eph. 1:22,23) and my dependency on him, I felt it only natural to direct my thoughts to him from time to time. I felt something inside pushing me to do it. Funny, I have a completely clear conscience because I know that I am not worshipping him. But, the natural desire to communicate with him out of love for him and recognition for his position as head...MY head, has prompted me from time to time to direct my thoughts toward him. Again, it's a change that I think no JW could make (especially me) unless the HS made that change. I would never tell someone to do it, but rather tell them to make their own decision after scrutiny, IF the HS so moves them.
I should wish a journey similar to mine upon others, Witnesses included. A journey without the heavy influence of men. Perhaps a few pointers and enlightening thoughts that get them thinking outside the box, as the articles here often are. I should wish more for them to read the Bible and let Christ through the HS move them and help them draw the correct conclusions so they can see how wonderful and enlightening it is to take Christ's yoke and be joined to him. As you very skillfully bring out Meleti, being "in union" with Christ doesn't quite describe the connection that Jesus wanted us to have, nor the feelings we have within ourselves when we truly become his disciple, and stop being a disciple of the GB.
Thank Jesus for his illustrations!!!!
Much love,Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-05-29 11:23:55
Really excellent thoughts, Yehorakam. Thanks for sharing.
I appreciate the point about not trying to force someone to partake. It would be like forcing someone to get baptised. Of course, this doesn't undermine the importance of baptism nor of partaking. If we wish to truly be "in Christ" we must at some stage, when ready, get baptised, and likewise drink of his blood and eat of his flesh to be saved. Yet the mere act of doing it is meaningless unless our heart is really in it.
Good point!
As to praying to Jesus, it is something I've been struggling with for a while, again like you, due to JW upbringing.
I've resolved it in my heart for the reasons you stated and others. I pray to the Father as we are instructed to, but I do talk to Jesus. It may be a distinction without a difference to some, but not to me. Prayer is offered in the name of Jesus. I cannot yet talk to God for he is not all things to everyone yet. (1Co 15:28) But I can pray to him through Jesus. However, I can talk with my Lord.Reply by miken on 2016-05-29 16:18:11
Yehorakakam and Meleti if you pray to our Lord Jesus you will be joining good biblical company. Stephen prayed to our Lord when he was dying, Acts 7:59, and Paul also prayed to him recorded at 2 Corinthians 12:7-10. 1 Corinthians 1:2 records that there were "all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours". The Greek word for "call" in this scripture is Epikaleomai meaning invoke for aid, appeal to. It is the same word translated "appeal" in Acts 25:11, 21, 25 referring to Paul's appeal to Caesar. I do not see how it is possible to have an intimate personal relationship with our Lord Jesus without communicating with him, He invited us to do so recorded at John 14:14 "You make ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it". The "me" is included in the earliest Greek manuscripts but of course not included in the NWT (see Watchtower Interlinear). John 17:3 refers to not only "coming to know" God but also our Lord Jesus The Greek for "to know" is Ginosko, meaning far more than knowing things about our Lord which is of course important but also knowing in an ever growing personal intimate relationship. This again I cannot see as possible without communicating with him. If your concern that praying to Jesus would amount to worshipping him, well even in the NWT Jesus the Lamb is worshipped by" the elders" along with " him who sits on the throne", Revelation 5:13, 14. Verse 13 also puts the Lamb outside of creation "every creature" Greek Ktisma" , created thing, product of the creative act, ref 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18; Revelation 8:9. John 1:3 also makes the same point together with Colossians 1:16, 17 referring to "all things" (there is no "other" NWT in the Greek) being created by Jesus Christ in heaven and on earth.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-05-29 20:04:46
I feel that prayer is not the same as talking to, appealing to or requesting from. Prayer is something unique and is directed only to God.
Reply by tyhik on 2016-05-30 09:20:27
Yehorakam, reading your comments that just seem to flow out of you assure my impression that there is a beautiful world out there, that I have just got a vague idea about. The world where one is close to God and Christ. That world attracts me, but I have really no good idea of how to get there. I have been trying to kind of rush there, or force my way there, and am frustrated by my slow progress. Two years back I did not believe God exists. It has taken years if not decades of people to get there. So I should not expect to cover my lag instantly. But I have a will to get there. Sadly, many faithful longtime witnesses in our cong seem not to be aware of such a world at all. In contrast, I have met a few very spiritual people when publishing door to door. I have been amazed by their depth and closeness to God. I really have enjoyed revisiting them, letting them talk and just immersing myself in the spiritual atmosphere, or if I may say so, Christ's presence. The attraction I feel to such things seems strange to me, if I look back to my atheist life. I have never had any spiritual experience, any longing for higher power and have always been pragmatic and rational. And now I know there is something out there, of which I really really want to be part of.
Thanks so much for your thoughts.Reply by amoreomeara on 2016-06-01 08:32:39
Hi Tyhik,
The verse I have for you is Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.
You have heard his voice, you just need to open the door. All you need is heartfelt prayer, Sorry, Thank you, Please. Sorry for living a sinful life that relied on my own understanding, Thank you that you sent your only begotten son, to die and rise vicorious over sin and death, that I moght have evelasting life and Please send me your Holy Spirit that I may be renewed and abide with Christ.
I hope this helps! Please take courage from the parables Yahshua told at Luke 18 about the persistent widow and the humble man.
Do not give up, but humble yourself before the Father and he will answer you! :-)Reply by tyhik on 2016-06-03 13:22:36
Thanks amoreomeara and miken for the guidance. There is definitely much room for me to develop a deeper understanding of the Sorry and the Thank you aspects.
I have been keeping Matt 7:7-8 as my guiding verses. They are in an interesting contrast with Rev 3:20 regarding of who knocks and who opens.
Reply by miken on 2016-06-03 10:05:35
Tyhik Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him (John 14:6). However we cannot “come” to Christ unless drawn to him by the Father. The Father draws us to him (John 6:44, 6; 1 Cor 1:9) and gives us to him ((John 6:37)
Only by “coming” to Christ Jesus our Lord (Acts 4:12; John 5:39, 40; 6:35, 37, 44, 45, 65), surrendering our life to him, being born again ( John 3:3-7) and receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) can we have the opportunity of eternal life (Rom 6:23). We are then in a position to come to “know” both the Father and Jesus Christ personally and intimately (John 17:3). and also in a position to “eat the flesh and drink the blood” of Christ (John 6:53-58; 1Cor 11:23-26). Jesus becomes our mediator (1 Tim 2:5) and we become beneficiaries of the “new covenant”. and become sons and children of the Father not just his friend (Rom 8:12-17)
Pray to the Father to open your heart to surrender your life to our Lord Jesus Christ John 1:12.
.
Comment by Yehorakam on 2016-05-29 15:48:14
Hi Meleti. "Praying", "talking" or directing your thoughts to him" What's the difference? Really, what's the difference between prayer and talking? I see the only difference is the motive or how the one praying/talking views the conversation. Have they approached God or Jesus with the motive of worship, or simply with the desire to communicating their feelings. Who would know what the motive was? ... Really, only the person praying/talking and the person on the other end. No one else could or should judge the motive. Maybe someone would try and point the finger and say you're worshipping Jesus, when all you were doing was talking to him. I mean, Eli saw Hannah praying and thought she was talking to herself like a drunk. In the Bible, people prostrated before others. Were they worshipping the other person, or showing respect? At first glance, an observer might accuse them of worshipping the other person, but only the person on their knees would really know why they were on their knees. Were Stephen's words in Acts 7:59 a prayer of worship, or communication? Stephen, Jesus and Jehovah would know. But as the Bible describes him as righteous man and full of spirit, I would safely conclude his words were sincere communication with his head and Lord and not a sin. For that reason motives are so important, and when done with the correct motive and not violating a direct instruction in the Bible, one is left with a clean conscience.
I hope people don't run and start talking to Jesus because of anything I've said. I truly feel each person should wait for the HS to move them to the correct conclusion so as to make their own decision with a clear conscience. As you say, our JW upbringing has created so many preconceptions or walls that are hard to get past, some harder than others. The GB has told us what to do in matters of conscience and therefore restricted Christian freedom and the way HS can act upon Christians. Removing them from equation and allowing the HS to guide us indeed helps us get past those walls. Our experiences are proof of that!
Much love,Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-05-29 20:01:34
>>“Praying”, “talking” or directing your thoughts to him” What’s the difference?
To illustrate, I talk to many people, but I only pray to God. So there is a difference between talking to Jesus and praying to the Father.
The issue of worship as it relates to Jesus is a complex one. I did a fair bit of research into it last year and am more at peace with the concept now. See www.meletivivlon.com on the home pages and click on the Category: WorshipReply by amoreomeara on 2016-06-07 10:59:26
This is an interesting concept, what's the difference between praying or talking? I too talk to many people, either face to face or via the telephone. They all have one thing in common, a physical body. To me if you are 'talking' to a spirit being then this makes it prayer. Should we 'talk' to Jesus? I think so. If he alone is our mediator then it seems logical to address him directly, as well as to the Father through the authority given to us by Jesus. Is this a problem? Not for Paul at Damascus, or Stephen being stoned. Is this the same as prayer? I think so. :-)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-06-07 11:36:52
Those shown addressing Jesus in the Bible were beholding a vision or a miraculous manifestation. I would not call that prayer. Prayer transcends the art of conversation and is a form of reverential worship, not proskuneo, mind you. So I don't think the definition of prayer as human-to-spirit communication is a valid one. Nevertheless, if someone can show me Bible evidence to the contrary, I'll accept that.
This would make a good topic on DiscussTheTruth.com. There may already be a topic there on this, though I'm rushed now, so wasn't able to find one.
Comment by Adam on 2020-10-11 04:22:43
"the support of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", (Phil 1:19) I think explains "apart from me you are not able to do anything."(John 15:5)
This keeps me humble I hope.
Comment by London18 on 2020-10-14 19:22:41
I saw a youtube video about pruning grape vines that wineries perform. It reminded me of these verses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNlZS4sW7Wc
The link above shows the full yearly season. A Christian has many 'seasons' we go through in our lives to mature to that perfect fruitage with the sweetness from the vine. If you research it, the finest fruit comes from those branches closest to the main vine (stalk) since it absorbs the most sugar. Thank you for the research!