[From ws7/16 p. 7 for September 5-11]
“You do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Mt 24:42
Paternalism is often characteristic of any organization, religious or otherwise, that grows in power and scope. Slowly, control over even minor aspects of one’s life is exercised. To ensure compliance to even trivial rules, obedience is equated with survival. Disobedience means death.
For years, the Governing Body has asked Witnesses to take their seats when the 10-minute musical prelude begins. This allows everyone to be seated in time for the opening prayer. However, this is no longer sufficient. Now there is a countdown and all are supposed to be seated before the music starts and then quietly listen to the “beautiful music of the Watchtower orchestra”.
The question for paragraph 1 of this week’s study directs us to look at the opening picture (see above) while asking us to, “Illustrate why it is important to be aware of what time it is and what is happening around us.”
So why is this scenario important? It is, after all, only a musical prelude. The closing sentence of paragraph 1 explains:
“That scenario may help us appreciate the “countdown” for a much greater event, one that calls for us to be keenly aware of what is coming in the near future. And what event is that?” – par. 1
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses is seriously telling us that being aware of their countdown for the musical prelude at conventions will help us to “keep on the watch” for the coming day of the Lord Jesus Christ in great power and glory!
This may well seem silly to some—not to mention, paternalistic—but let's overlook that for the moment and notice that the opening paragraph starts with a countdown: “FIVE, four, three, two, one!” Then it links that countdown to another “’countdown’ for a much greater event.”
(I feel compelled to stop here to remark on this stunning example of overstatement. Calling the return of Christ a “much greater event” than a regional convention musical prelude is like calling a 100-megaton thermonuclear explosion a much greater event than a burp.)
Paragraph 2 explains that we do not know the day or hour that the Lord is coming, which would seem to conflict with the idea of a countdown. A countdown is used to coordinate the tasks of many teams working toward a single event. A rocket launch is likely the first example that comes to mind. Everybody knows about the countdown and has constant access to the timing, otherwise, it would serve no purpose. Jesus describes his coming as likened to that of a thief in the night. He never likens it to a countdown.
So by the end of only the second paragraph, the reader has two seemingly contradictory ideas implanted. No one knows when Jesus is coming, but there is a countdown and he’s “coming in the near future.”
At this point, some might counter that the article never states we know the timing of the countdown. Paragraph 4 states that only Jehovah, and likely Jesus, know when the countdown reaches zero. Fair enough. This countdown has been going on for at least the past two thousand years, so why is it being emphasized here? Why speak about a countdown if we are not privy to the time on the countdown clock?
The reason is that even though the WT admits that only Jehovah and Jesus know the precise time on the countdown clock, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been given special insight into where we are on the countdown sequence. We may not know where the second hand is exactly, but we sure do know where the hour hand is, and we've a pretty good idea where the minute hand is pointing as well.
That is why paragraph 1 can speak of a countdown which paragraph 4 says only God knows about while in the same breath stating with certainty that the zero hour is in “the near future”.
Paragraph 3 continues with the theme by saying:
“As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we take seriously Jesus’ warning. We know that we are living deep in “the time of the end” and that there cannot be much time left before the “great tribulation” begins!” – par. 3
This message echoes words spoken by Russell and Rutherford, and they were not even the first to use them. In fact, we can trace end-of-time predictions which have a direct theological lineage to Jehovah's Witnesses of today back almost 200 years!
During my lifetime I've heard variations on the words cited above from paragraph 3 many times. Here's one from 1950.
“Now is the time to live and work as Christians, especially now, for the final end is near.” (w50 2/15 p. 54 par. 19)
In my twenties, we were told the countdown would likely end around 1975.
“From our Bible study we have learned that we are living deep in the “time of the end.”” (w72 4/1 p. 216 par. 18)
Let’s be clear. No one is saying we shouldn’t be watchful. Jesus said we should be on the watch and that is the end of the matter. But the type of date-based watchfulness the Organization is pushing on us is not what Jesus had in mind. He knew that the disappointment it inevitably engenders can be harmful to one’s spirituality.
How can the Governing Body make the assertion that Jesus is returning in the near future? Signs! We have signs!
“We see distressing wars, increasing immorality and lawlessness, religious confusion, food shortages, pestilences, and earthquakes taking place around the world. We know that a phenomenal Kingdom-preaching work is being accomplished by Jehovah’s people everywhere.” – par. 3
Just last year The Watchtower had this to say:
“Today, world conditions keep getting worse.” (w15 11/15 p. 17 par. 5)
I’ve heard many friends parrot these words. Closing their minds to the reality surrounding us, they see a continually worsening world condition despite abundance evidence to the contrary.
Before going on, we should clarify something. We need to remove a premise all Witnesses accept as gospel, but which does not appear in the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that we would be able to calculate how close to the end we are based on worsening world conditions. In fact, a case could be made for the exact opposite. Jesus said:
“On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.” (Mt 24:44)
If worsening world conditions have caused Christians throughout time to expect the arrival of Jesus, yet he comes when we do not think he is coming, it follows that worsening world conditions are an anti-sign.
I’m not suggesting for a minute we treat them that way. In fact, looking for a sign is a sign in itself—a sign of a wicked generation.
“. . .“Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” 39 In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah the prophet.” (Mt 12:38, 39)
Nevertheless, to demonstrate the lengths to which the Governing Body is willing to go in order to maintain the state of anxious expectation needed to compel unswerving obedience from the flock in their care, let us examine the “signs” indicating the end is near.
Let’s start with the “distressing wars” we are supposed to be seeing. These would have to be distinguishable from the wars we’ve seen for the last two thousand years. Remember, these are supposed to be indicative of “worsening world conditions”, so we’re looking for an increase here.
How odd then that the facts indicate we are currently experiencing one of the most war-free times of history.
What about earthquakes? Statistically, there has been no increase in earthquakes. What about pestilences. We saw the Black Death (Bubonic Plague) in the mid-1300s which is reportedly the worst pestilence of all times. The Spanish Influenza of 1918-1919 killed more people than World War I. But since then, we’ve made great strides in medicine and disease control. Malaria, Tuberculosis, Polio, SARS, ZIKA, these are contained and controlled. In short, what we have are pestilence non-starters. Such international cooperation hardly seems like a candidate sign of “worsening world conditions.”
I’m no scientist. I’m no scholar. I’m just a man with a computer and access to the internet, yet I’ve researched all this in a matter of minutes. So one wonders what is happening at JW.org world headquarters among the writing staff.
Of course, even if wars were getting worse, and we were seeing an increase in food shortages, pestilences, and earthquakes, that would not be a sign of the end. Quite the opposite. Jesus, knowing how easily humans get spooked, and how ready we are to read a sign into anything, told us not to be misled by such things.
“YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.” (Mt 24:6)
It seems that with the bettering of world conditions, the Organization is getting desperate and is inventing new signs. The article suggests that “increasing immorality and lawlessness, as well as religious confusion” are signs the end is very near.
“Religious confusion” as sign the end is near? What exactly is that, and where does the Bible speak of it as a sign?
Perhaps the most interesting “sign” they advance as proof of the nearness of Jesus’ return is the “phenomenal Kingdom-preaching work…being accomplished by Jehovah’s [Witnesses] everywhere.” “Everywhere” is misleading as Witnesses do not preach to over half of the world’s population. Apparently, standing on the street silently beside a cart displaying literature (no Bibles), or going to doors where few are home and showing a video once or twice a morning, or exhibiting numerical growth that doesn’t even keep up with the world population growth rate is deemed as a phenomenal! (Yet another example of the writer’s capacity for gross overstatement.) Of course, Witnesses believe that no other Christian religion is preaching about the kingdom, a misconception that could be easily debunked if Witnesses were only willing to disregard the injunction of the Governing Body against using the internet for Bible research.
Counting Down the Time
“We know that every convention session has a precise time to start. However, try as hard as we might, we cannot pinpoint the exact year, much less day and hour, when the great tribulation will begin.” – par. 4
Given the history of the organization I've grown old serving, it would be more accurate had they rephrased this to read: "...we cannot pinpoint the exact century, nor decade, nor year..."
The resurrection of the 20th century generation doctrine fiasco into the current overlapping-generations doctrine has breathed new life into the apocalyptic expectations of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We are lead to believe that the current generation of Governing Body members will be around to see the end. (See the article: They’re Doing It Again.)
Turning a blind eye to all the organization's failures of last century to predict the nearness of the end, the writer feels confident in saying “we cannot pinpoint the exact year”, inferring that the exact decade is another thing entirely. This is a new generation. The majority of Witnesses alive today did not see all the failures of the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. History is ripe for the repeating.
The purpose of this subtitle is to reassure us that Jehovah hasn’t changed and that the end will come and will not be late. (Ha 2:1-3)
Why is such a reassurance necessary?
Likely for a reason not mentioned in the next section.
Beware of Being Distracted from Your Watchfulness
This subtitle lists three ways that we can become distracted from Christian watchfulness. It should list four. The fourth is the effect of false expectations and presumably the reason for the previous subtitle’s point about not doubting Jehovah will bring the end.
The Bible says:
“Expectation postponed is making the heart sick…” (Pr 13:12)
Knowledge of this Bible truth is why Jesus did not expect us to tie our watchfulness to date-based calculations and why he gave us no mechanism for doing so.
Could it be that the Organization is itself responsible for thousands of Christians losing their watchful state, even to the point of becoming agnostic or atheist? Are the Organization's failed pronostications themselves the reason that so many active Jehovah’s Witnesses need to be reassured that the end will not be late?
“Satan blinds people’s minds through the world empire of false religion. What have you detected in your conversations with others? Has the Devil not already “blinded the minds of the unbelievers” about the coming end of this system of things and the fact that Christ is now ruling God’s Kingdom?” – par. 11
According to the Governing Body, it is Satan the Devil who has blinded the minds of unbelievers about “the fact that Christ is now ruling God’s Kingdom!”
If you care to click this link, then move to the “Categories” listing, click on “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and then select the 1914 subtitle, you’ll see many articles examining the 1914 doctrine from every direction. Check out 1914 – What’s the Problem?, 1914 – A Litany of Assumptions, and Was 1914 the Start of Christ’s Presence? as three examples of how false that doctrine proves to be.
Since the 1914 invisible presence is a false teaching, it makes no sense that the Devil would hide it from anyone. It plays right into his hand. Getting millions to believe in 1914, serves to establish that year as the start of the last days. With that in place, the idea that the length of the last days can be calculated using the generation of Matthew 24:34 follows as night does day. The decade-by-decade failure of that interpretation throughout most of the 20th century would inevitably lead to disillusionment and in the best case scenario—from Satan’s perspective—cause a great falling way from Christ.
Through every decade of my life, that doctrine was re-explained to allow for a recalculation that moved the end seven to ten years farther down the road. Decade after decade of failure until finally we saw the end of the doctrine in the mid-1990s. Most were confused, but some of us heaved a great sigh of relief. So it was with considerable dismay that we witnessed the resurrection of the doctrine toward the end of the first decade of the new century. This year, it has been officially used again to determine how long the generation is and approximately when it will end. The current members of the Governing Body are part of the second generation that overlaps the first. As such, most will still be alive when Christ returns, and will supposedly not even be that old nor decrepit. We’re back to a countdown. (See the article: They’re Doing It Again.)
In Summary
A soldier on an ancient battlement was there to keep on the watch, even during times when there was no imminent threat. He might go through his whole tenure of military service and never once sound the alarm. This should be the state of Christians. It is a state of awareness that is sustainable throughout one’s lifetime.
However, what if the soldier is told the enemy is going to appear within the month, and it doesn’t? What if he’s then told it will appear within the next month, and again it doesn’t? What if this goes on and on? Inevitably, his spirit will tire out. The increased anxiety level resulting from the supposition that a threat is imminent is not psychologically sustainable. Either the soldier will eventually lose faith in his commanders and let down his guard when it really counts, or the ongoing stress of artificially heightened awareness will affect his mental and physical health.
Jesus wouldn’t do that to us. So why does the Organization feel obliged to? Simply put, it is a control mechanism.
During times of peace, with the population dwelling in security, people have time to examine things; things like their leaders. Generally speaking, leaders don’t like to be scrutinized. So maintaining a state of fear is optimal for controlling the population. It could be the Cold War, the Communist menace, global warming, international terrorism…or the imminent end of the world. Whatever the threat is, when in fear, people rally behind their leaders. People just want to feel safe and protected.
A few years back, the Governing Body did away with the Book Study arrangement. The reasons given didn't make sense. (High fuel costs, additional travel time.) It has become evident that the reason was control. Small groups that are not under the watchful eye of the entire body of elders might begin to deviate from the doctrines of the Governing Body. Control! Recently, we were treated to a video extolling the "integrity" of a brother who put his family through many months of privation just so he wouldn't miss the WT Study of his own congregation, even though he could have easily attended the Study at a neighboring congregation. Control! In this study article, we are expected to be in our seats before the start of musical prelude—which undermines the whole purpose of a musical prelude—so we can listen quietly to the music the Governing Body has prepared for us. We are told that learning to be obedient in this little thing will help us survive Armageddon. Control!
We may have doubts about the Governing Body, but if we are caused to believe that our salvation depends on them and the end is only a few short years away, we can swallow our doubts and wait. If we reason this way, we are acting out of fear, rather than being motivated by a love of truth and fellow man. Ultimately, being motivated by fear will affect our attitude, our conduct, our whole personality.
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love." (1Jo 4:18)
'Nuf said!
Archived Comments
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Comment by Mr Noodle on 2016-09-05 08:42:25
Amen :)
Indeed, increasingly, I find the secret prayerful musings & thoughts we have all had for many years are being congealed into some very fine articles by Meleti and others.
I’m sure we would run a mile before we would constitute our collective scriptural realizations as dogma but I firmly believe that the application of sound reasoning on scripture is bearing some truly wonderful understandings. Jesus did say that “you will know the truth” and by reason of that knowledge it would set us free.
The teachings of JW’s have long been labelled as “The Truth” as we all know, yet ironically they point almost entirely away from Christ and inwardly to an organization that has become a walking talking corpse.
For many years I confess I was quite anxious and even angry about the false teachings and level of control that the GB exercised over the congregations.
I felt threatened in that the life I had known for 30+ years was tantamount to a fraudulent form of worship.
I have been unwilling to go to any meetings for several years and recently I was asked if I would allow a visit by an elder and a servant to “help me get back on the right track”.
Whereas in the past I would’ve felt somewhat intimidated I felt completely calm about the offer. I have become resolved in my conviction that the GB do not represent, convey or speak for Jehovah in any way. They are misguided men and they have no hold over me.
I look forward to their visit come what may.
Confidence is perhaps the wrong word, but I feel reassured that none of their false reasoning, scriptural and emotional manipulation will stand against the clear argument of scripture, even when the scripture doesn’t give you an answer. We do not need to fabricate answers and construct lies like the WTS/GB have done. We do not need to build on those lies with more lies then threaten those who question us. We do not need to equate our words with God’s and fall into a Meriba trap like they have.
Sometimes the greatest truth is saying “We do know this, but we don’t know that, but God does”
We can let the scriptures speak when they have something to say and not be presumptuous to speak for God when the Bible is silent.
Presumptuousness is the greatest thing that the WTS/GB are guilty of!
Articles like this are tremendously encouraging as they help me to gird my thoughts and feel connected to scriptural reasoning that is beyond the thoughts and doctrines of men and organizations.
Thank youReply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-05 09:02:26
Thanks, Mr Noodle (and someday you've got to explain the origin of this alias :) )
If you're comfortable sharing, we would love to hear the results of your meeting with the brothers.
Comment by 1984 on 2016-09-05 03:31:14
Another fantastic article Meleti. The two previous reviews were outstanding too. I wanted to comment at the time but I was locked in a big email ding dong with my brother in law (who is still a JW) and I couldn't believe, as I was reading your articles, all the cliched responses he was coming back with, just as you were covering them (actually, I could believe his responses because I expected nothing less, although the extent of the cliches surprised me a little, but the timing of your articles was almost prescient!)
I put him in the picture about the UN and the extent of the child abuse issue worldwide, and I covered the false prophecies and some of the doctrines, and much more, but just as you stated, it didn't matter how much proof I offered or how much I put the ball in his court, he came back with the same cliches - this is God's organisation, who else could be the faithful and discreet slave, wait on Jehovah, we must have been got at by apostates and/or been stumbled etc. He insisted on playing the man and not the ball. He even had the gall to ask me where we stood on the dedication we made to the organisation! (That was a gift I must admit because I pointed out to him that that particular question had been introduced in 1985, and prior to that a 1955 watchtower had stated that we should never be baptised in the name of any organisation. And then I pointed him to Jesus' actual baptism instructions in Matthew 28:18-20.)
Of course, all this has been dredged up by the convention which they have recently attended. We told them at the end of last year we had decided to stop attending meetings (which we hadn't been to for some time prior to that.) They didn't want to know the reasons, so we to had to endure the one sided conversations telling us that we were wrong, rejecting Jehovah and going to die, along with a barrage of other cliches, threats and abuse, which we just ignored. After they got over the initial shock (and realised their threats and accusations weren't working) an uneasy peace settled for a while, until the convention stirred it all up again. But we have taken a firm stand and they seem to get that now - we tentatively agreed to disagree.
And now they know some of our reasons too, which may give them something to think about. The irony is that we knew everything they were going to say to us in advance, but they were oblivious to what we had ready to unload on them. And yet they are quite happy to judge and condemn. It's just so difficult to break through that Watchtower mindset, but hopefully we have chipped away at it a little. Nonetheless, it is still cruel of Watchtower to put their loyal servants through the mental anguish, emotional torture and indignity of believing that their loved ones are going to be destroyed any day now for the most heinous of sins (rejecting "the truth") while they are rejecting Christ! And then they deploy them in some proxy war (through indoctrination at the convention and watchtower studies) to try and emotionally blackmail "inactive" ones back. It is clear they are losing their grip, becoming more delusional and desperate.
Through the last few weeks I wanted to let you know that your articles have been a real strengthening aid. I didn't have the time or energy to comment, but I want you know your efforts are not in vain. I find your experience, discernment and reasonableness refreshing and it is much appreciated. It is also refreshing to find a community like this which is not about angry vitriol and resentment (although I understand the feelings) but about seeking truth and living in harmony with true Christian principles and faith. So thanks to all who comment too!Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-05 08:01:10
I appreciate your words of encouragement and thank you for sharing your experience. It helps all of us to see how faithful ones must endure persecution to stay loyal.
In line with that, we were reading from John yesterday and came across this:
“. . .If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also;. . .” (Joh 15:20)
To this point, Jesus had not experienced any physical persecution. But he had experienced threats, and verbal abuse, probing questions intended to trap him so that they could find cause to denounce him and expel him from the synagogue. He'd experienced constant opposition by haters. All of that is the type of persecution we are not experiencing. I'm sure we'll see more and more of it.
Later on, he said:
“I have spoken these things to YOU that YOU may not be stumbled. 2 Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. 3 But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me. 4 Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to YOU that, when the hour for them arrives, YOU may remember I told them to YOU.
I'd never noticed that phrase before: "when the hour for them arrives". These haters mentioned as such in John 16:17, 18, 23 have an "hour" assigned to them. Today, Christian don't have to worry too much about persecution from Jews, but rather from "false [Christian] brothers" believing they are rendering sacred service to God. (John 16:2)
For us, this is a refining process to make us ready for the greater task ahead in the Kingdom of God.
“. . .If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, 23 in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, [what of it]? 25 It is as he says also in Ho·seʹa: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved ‘beloved’; 26 and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”” (Ro 9:22-26)Reply by vinman on 2016-09-05 12:22:29
Meleti, have you seen the movie "The Village"? If you haven't, I urge you to watch it. It is the Watchtower! You will never look at that movie the same again. Very creepy.
In fact, if someone came to me now, and asked why I left, I would tell them to watch that movie. Then I would say, that is the reality.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-05 16:33:33
Not Shyamalan's best movie, but I see your point.
Comment by vinman on 2016-09-05 12:15:48
Meleti, a point you brought out in this article scared me. In your honest opinion, do you believe that the Watchtower is raising a new generation of "Armageddon is just around the corner" , based on the "overlapping generations" garbage?
I always thought that would be a "waking up" moment. But maybe I am wrong. Are younger people running with this? I sure hope not.
I know I sound like a broken recond, but your articles are so well put together. The way you extract what is really being said is awesome. Oh, and that "countdown" thing, how embarassing!
"How grateful we are, for all the wonderful deep spiritual food the slave provides! May we always remain loyal, no matter how nonsensical it is!"Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-05 16:28:48
It certainly does seem to be the case that they are prepping the rank and file for this mentality. I think they're smart enough not to nail down a year again, but tying the end of the generation to the current crop of GB members still sets an effective time limit on the "countdown".
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-05 17:28:13
The generation Jesus was talking about was the wicked generation of his day. The great tribulation was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, and this fulfilled Daniels prophecy. There is no dual fulfilment of a great tribulation. Parallel dispensations and dual fulfillments are just silly. Why do people think that what they read applies to their lifetime? Now that we've cleared that up, we can all get on with life. If there's one thing for certain, we are all going to die, and we are all going to get a resurrection that has been promised to us. Remain faithful to God and his son Jesus. Live a Christian life and do good to others. Above all, show love. Salvation comes through no organisation, but by God's grace through faith in his son Jesus. Peace and love to everyone
Reply by william on 2016-09-06 10:50:09
You spoke against dual fulfillments and got a lot of upvotes. I am surprised. I thought that nearly all of the people using this site were futurists. There must be a lot of preterists using this site.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-06 11:27:09
There are three types of preterists. We try to not be defined by such terms, but prefer to take the Bible as it comes. Some prophecies have been fulfilled already. Others have yet to be fulfilled.
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-06 17:30:27
Exactly. I spoke specifically about dual fulfillments. There is no such thing. Unless you want to actually believe Jesus was speaking about our overlapping generation and a secondary great tribulation. Better get the basement prepared in that case...
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-06 18:04:22
But I don't have a basement! Does that mean I'm lost. Oh wait. I forgot about the secret knock. Three, then two, then one. Or was it one, then two, then three? I guess our dyslexic brothers are going to have a rough time of it.
Reply by william on 2016-09-07 20:02:30
Thanks for your comments. Mileti, I think you were speaking on behalf of most of the regulars, when you wrote: “Some prophecies have been fulfilled already. Others have yet to be fulfilled.” I need to avoid the word “preterist” since, as you say, it is ambiguous. The predecessors of modern preterists James Stuart Russell and Philip S. Desprez don't seem to have used the words “preterist” and “futurist.” They just used clauses, like commenter Anonymous did when he wrote: “Why do people think that what they read applies to their lifetime?”, thereby excluding an application to Matthew 24 to modern times.
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-08 04:11:11
So, which part of Matthew 24 applies to modern times? I am interested. The thing is, a lot of descriptive language is used in the Bible. It sounds quite exaggerated sometimes. As an example, let's look at Acts 2:17-21. Did all of those things Joel prophesied at Joel 2:28-32 happen then, or are some yet to be fulfilled? Did the sun turn to darkness and the moon actually turn to blood with the outpouring of the spirit? Peter said this was being fulfilled, so who am I to argue? I think we just don't relate to the descriptive language used sometimes, or understand it properly. The Bible can explain itself though. I would never in a million years thought the outpouring of the spirit fulfilled Joel's words, but Peter clearly shows it did. Matt 24:15 references Dan 9:27 (let the reader understand). The great tribulation culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews fulfilled Daniels seventy weeks prophecy. In the days of those kings (ending with the Roman Empire), the kingdom was setup with Jesus as King. Jesus proclaimed the kingdom as being at hand, and said it had overtaken others. Matt 24:30 is a direct quote from Joel 2:10. Again, very descriptive language. But is it literal? And after this Jesus says that this generation, that is, the wicked generation of his day, will not pass away until ALL these things take place. Heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will NEVER pass away. But what about Matt 24:14? Was that fulfilled in this short time of a generation? Well, compare this with Acts 1:8 and Romans 10:18. Did Jesus words come true or not? Was the good news preached in all the inhabited earth at that time before Jerusalem was destroyed? The best way to read the Bible is in the right historical context, and it makes a lot more sense. Anyways, reading in the God's Kingdom Rules book that the modern day fulfilment of Mal 3:1 is CT Russell and his ex-Millerite friends made my head spin
Reply by vinman on 2016-09-08 08:46:08
Anonymous, I am very open about things, even if it feels uncomfortable. I have studied this subject. And honestly, with all this exaggerated language, I was thinking to myself the other day that the language used and its application to 70AD seems a "much ado about nothing" no matter how bad that event was.(I know that sounds disrespectful). But if you were a Christian and not near Jerusalem at the time, your physical life was not even in danger. Much of Jesus' words would not even apply to you. In addition, for many people in other nations, this was a big event but not life altering. Perhaps even a non event. Those are my thoughts.
But my question is, when (or how), does a person , decide what is future or what is "exaggerated"? I mean, how does a "preterist" ( mild or extreme), even apply anything to himself? Peter's words about"new heavens and a new earth" and the language used, if this was "exaggerated", I would tell Peter he needs to "chill out". Seriously.
Conveying my thoughts here is difficult since it may sound like I am arguing with your points. But I am not. I am currently studying this. It makes sense logically. But then you do run into other issues later. ( That is what I researched as well).
So, if it all has been fulfilled, what does any of it really mean for us? Yes, it can instill confidence. But nothing else in an informative way. I welcome your thoughts.?Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-08 14:57:25
Hi Vinman,
I was specifically discussing the context of Matthew 24, on its own. I was not referring to discussing whether the new heavens or earth has happened yet, or Judgement Day, as these things have obviously not happened. Neither has a resurrection from the dead. These must be future. But we should ask ourselves when studying the Bible, how often do we do scriptural gymnastics, rather than reading things in context? It would clear up a lot of things. As to the supposed non-event of the destruction of Jerusalem, this is from a quick search on Wikipedia.
According to Josephus, 1.1 million non-combatants died in Jerusalem, mainly as a result of the violence and famine. Many of the casualties were observant Jews from across the world such as Babylon and Egypt who had travelled to Jerusalem wanting to celebrate the yearly Passover but instead got trapped in the chaotic siege.[1]
He also tells us that 97,000 were enslaved.[1]
This is hardly a non-event for God's chosen nation. It specifically fulfilled Dan 9:26 ( the Roman armies invaded as if by flood). If it was a non-event, why would Jesus weep for Jerusalem? Why would Jesus talk in riddles and mention things that would not specifically apply to his disciples? After all, they asked the question? His disciples were to be faithful and wise as they had specifically been given the commission to preach the good news, before Jesus ascended to heaven, which they did. And just about anyone nowadays can access a Bible, which means they were pretty successful in their endeavours to spread the good news. It is only if you rip what Jesus said from its context and try and apply it 2000 years later to our day that you run into difficulties, in my humble opinion. Women grinding at the mill, flight on the Sabbath day etc, etc. I welcome your thoughts too :-)Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-08 18:46:39
Just another interesting thought that I forgot to add. Matt 24:30 talks about the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven. Again, very descriptive language. But is it literal, or does it represent something? Jesus used the same language in Matt 26:64 when on trial. The Jews would have know that this was a direct reference to Dan 7:13. Jesus was saying that he was the son of God and would be King of God's Kingdom from that point on, which they saw as blasphemy. Did Jesus literally come on the clouds of heaven?
Reply by vinman on 2016-09-08 18:51:38
Thanks for your response. I guess I have been reading about extreme preterists. That's when it gets weird. But the concept that Jesus was talking about 70 AD makes sense. What is your feeling about Matt. 24:29-31?
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-08 19:58:02
I think I preempted your question vinman :-) (see above) Obviously that only explains vs 30. Vs 29 could refer to Satan being cast out of heaven (compare Luke 10:18, Rev 9:1) I'm speculating with that one, but I assume it would have been the first thing Jesus did when he got back to heaven. Vs 31 is interesting, as the chosen ones are gathered from the extremity of the heavens. But no one has ascended to heaven yet except Jesus. So is this a gathering of loyal angels? Compare this with Jude 14,15 where the Lord delivers judgement with his holy myriads. This is a direct quote from the book of Enoch interestingly. I don't have all the answers, but I try not to take things too literally anymore, and read it for what it is, keeping in mind the type of language used back then. To sum it all up, Jesus got back to heaven, threw Satan out, and executed judgement on the wicked generation that killed him. Your thoughts?
Reply by william on 2016-09-08 20:08:45
Anonymous, here is an answer to the question about whether Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in the first century, from page 61 of the 1878 edition of The Parousia (anonymous in the first edition, but actually by James Stuart Russell):
Is there anything which did not actually happen in their own day? 'Yes,' it will be said; 'the gospel of the kingdom has not yet been preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations.' But we have this very fact vouched for by St. Paul (Col. i. 5, 6) - 'The word of the truth of the gospel, which is come. unto you, as it is in all the world,' etc.; and, again (Col. i. 23) - 'The gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.' There was, then, in the age of the apostles, such a world-wide diffusion of the gospel as to satisfy the Saviour's predictions, - 'The gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world' [οικουμενη] .Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-08 23:46:05
Thanks for sharing that William :-)
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2016-09-06 15:32:38
Hello William,
I voted an "up vote" not because I agree with everything anonymous said, but because I agree with the general idea of dual fulfilments being a dubious concept unless we have direct evidence to the contrary in scripture. I find it difficult to understand why Jesus would describe the GT as one that is greater than anything before or again if there was to be another. On the other hand, the description of the sign of the son of man appearing does not seem to have been fulfilled already.
I have come to the conclusion that it's not for me to try to interpret prophecy. It's not for anyone to interpret prophecy. It won't change a thing that's going to happen. Being erroneously prepared for something particular only leads to disillusionment when it turns out to be another guess as Meleti well described.
Maybe prophecy is there for us to have that eureka moment when it happens. So we recognise it, and see what's happening as it happens rather than being in the dark and being frightened.
If we simply follow our Lords advice to "keep on the watch" we'll be ready for anything. I've spent 50+ years expecting the GT to break out any minute. To be honest, I've had enough of being kept in fearful suspense/ control by men. I'm content to trust in Jehovah and Christ Jesus and do my best to be acceptable to them in the meantime.
Keeping a weather eye open of course.
?Reply by william on 2016-09-08 19:51:29
Thanks for the long answer. I read it carefully.
Reply by mailman on 2016-09-10 02:08:09
Good points raised Martha. We are not Daniels who can correctly interpret dreams of a king. And since we are not prophets, who are we to boldly explain a prophecy, or even attempt to enlighten and convince others we have the right interpretation?
Unless the Governing Body admits officially it is a prophet (in modern times), it should cease to interpret Jesus prophetic words, adding additional details that have no scriptural basis.
Comment by tyhik on 2016-09-06 06:58:35
The example in the WTs 1st paragraph about everybody having to shut up and sit quiet during the prelude seems to be just about control indeed. The fact that many talk to friends during that time speaks of itself. Obviously they value much more talking to their friends, many of whom they meet only seldom, on conventions. The usual song-and-prayer tune in routine would work perfectly well on conventions too. It seems this silly prelude requirement has become harder to enforce by the GB than they expected. Apparently they view it as a sign of disobedience. So they cannot let it go. Now it's going to be interesting to see, whether the WT warning will do the trick. If not then expect another WT warning and that one may already mention obedience.
Comment by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-09-08 00:20:59
All I can say in response to this article is "Wow!" You hit it out of the park Meleti, nail on the head, spot on, ad infinitum. It's going to be hard for me this Sunday to keep my mouth shut at the Watchtower study, thus avoiding a trip to the back room.
Regarding your observation about the musical prelude at the convention. "Paternalistic" almost seems like an understatement. On the Friday of our convention, I arrived just before the afternoon session started (had to work that morning). When the invited Bethel speaker got up to do his talk, he prefaced his speech with an admonishment that, while he was glad to see such "enthusiasm" in the venue, he noticed that people were not sitting down for the music videos prior to the talks. He then proceeded to let us know in no uncertain terms that we were to "sit down for them and enjoy their spiritual nourishment" or some such drivel. I couldn't believe I was hearing him say that. I mean, for crying out loud, they're just feel-good music videos! And then I thought about it and came to the same conclusion: Control. They want complete control. Everyone marching in lock step. The usual confusion about unity vs uniformity. Incidentally, the next day, Saturday, I observed that his admonition seemed to have little effect on the audience; I didn't see a significant increase in the number of people who sat down for the videos. People were still milling about and chatting it up with each other. You can say this - JWs love to socialize!
As for the whole "end is near" hyperbole - this is something I've been troubled with since even before I was baptized. The Bible makes it pretty clear that we are not to speculate on dates for the end. Admittedly, the GB has learned how to cleverly get around this by simply using phrases like "around the corner," "very close," and "deep in the end times," etc. But it always occurred to me that phrases like that have meaning to everybody - perhaps different meanings to different people, but still, meaning. To one person "around the corner" may mean five years, to another, ten, and to a third, perhaps a year - but doesn't saying things like this put parameters of some sort on when the end will come? Consequently, doesn't saying things like this violate the "scriptural principle" on this matter?
Several months ago, I mentioned to an elder (carefully of course) that when looking at the "big picture" of history, things in the world have vastly improved over the last two thousand years. I had previously seen the infographic you provided showing that war has declined greatly; it's a great chart. And of course, famine, pestilence, and the other scourges of mankind have also greatly declined over history. I was amazed to find that even in America, just over a hundred years ago, the average life expectancy was only about 40 years old, so we've basically doubled it in very short order. I mentioned some of these things to an elder recently and asked him if he'd rather live now or in the 1400's in medieval times when things were apparently "so much better." And of course, I got no real reply on the matter - he dutifully sidestepped the question and made it clear I shouldn't ask him again. A classic example of "crimestop" as Orwell put it in 1984 - "protective stupidity." Sigh. To quote from that book: "Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading to a heretical direction." I can't think of a better word to describe how that elder reacted to my question (as well as to some other questions or thoughts I gave him).
And you're dead on in regards to the whole "fear factor" that the organization constantly pounds into us on this subject. Michael Crichton put it very well in his book State of Fear: "Social control is best managed through fear." It's such a shame - we should be coming out of the meetings feeling spiritually uplifted and happy - not feeling like we have to go home and make sure our "go bags" are fully stocked again.
And so, here we go again - yet another meeting telling us that the end is any day now - combined with the other recent broadcasts you have mentioned, we once again see the organization putting brackets around when the end will come, albeit carefully enough that they cannot be easily accused of setting dates - they've learned well on that matter. It brings to mind one last quote from 1984:
"For the secret of rulership is to combine a belief in one's own infallibility with the power to learn from past mistakes." The organization has truly learned this lesson.Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-09-08 00:25:37
I forgot to mention in my post an excellent link to a site showing just how much the world has improved over history. It is:
http://singularityhub.com/2016/06/27/why-the-world-is-better-than-you-think-in-10-powerful-charts/
Admittedly, you can make arguments about what some of the charts really mean (and many do in the comments section) but none-the-less, it makes a powerful argument that things are getting better overall, not worse.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-08 07:23:37
I'm going to have some fun sending this link out to friends.
Reply by AndereStimme on 2016-09-08 18:38:44
Thanks for posting that link. I think I'll be sharing that too. I did get a kick out of this quote:
"Being able to rapidly notice and pay attention to negative news (like a predator or a dangerous fire) was an evolutionary advantage to keep you alive on the savannas of Africa millions of years ago."
Ok, so maybe science education is an exception to the 'improvement' rule.
Reply by MarthaMartha on 2016-09-08 04:33:25
"But it always occurred to me that phrases like that have meaning to everybody – perhaps different meanings to different people, but still, meaning. To one person “around the corner” may mean five years, to another, ten, and to a third, perhaps a year "
How true. This was illustrated recently when the speaker said " we used to say Armageddon is just around the corner, but it's much closer than that now isn't it? Now, it's just on the horizon!"
I have to admit a snort escaped me in the shock of that comment. Thankfully there were enough murmurs of appreciation and agreement to cover me. ? ( I think)
Now, please tell me what ' on the horizon' means to you? To me, the horizon is usually visible but you never get there; it's always a distant thing. In fact, as you move nearer to a horizon it moves away. Hahaha. Ironic.
The verbal and mental gymnastics I've witnessed over almost 6 decades of ''keeping in expectation' make me laugh. It's not really funny though is it.
Greetings, and thanks for all the comments and articles here. I love coming here for a bit of sanity.
MMReply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-09-10 08:21:06
"I have to admit a snort escaped me in the shock of that comment. Thankfully there were enough murmurs of appreciation and agreement to cover me."
LOL, your story had me laughing so hard this morning! I can totally relate to it. Loved your comment on how the horizon continually recedes from us as well. How perfectly appropriate as an analogy for the organizations mis-steps on the GT.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-08 07:21:01
What a great series of quotes. Thank you, Deo_ac_veritati. Now I wish I'd read 1984. I'll have to put it on my reading list.
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-08 16:25:31
Ah yes, thoughtcrimes, doublespeak, the Ministry of Truth. Great stuff, you'll like it
Reply by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-09-10 08:32:03
Highly recommend reading 1984 . It's actually a fairly short read, but so deep at the same time. After you finish the book, I'd also recommend the following:
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/1984.htm
Fascinating comparison between the book and the current JW GB/organization.
Comment by lazarus on 2016-09-09 17:24:28
Thanks Meleti, after reading the Wt study and your review, they could make a few adjustments. Eg, basic message of Jesus return has not changed in 2,000 years. Be prepared or awake, because you never know when it might happen!
You wrote:Let’s be clear. No one is saying we shouldn’t be watchful. Jesus said we should be on the watch and that is the end of the matter. But the type of date-based watchfulness the Organization is pushing on us is not what Jesus had in mind. He knew that the disappointment it inevitably engenders can be harmful to one’s spirituality.
Excellent summary! This disappointed is not new as you pointed out, even from 200 years ago, date pushing and sounding the alarm bells were ripe.
You know you could go back to Peters writings and find the same disappointment because of being impatient , going to extremes in predicting dates or just the opposite in becoming pessimistic and apathetic. Look at 2 Peter 3:4. This has happened to many of our brothers because of date fixing or expectations not fulfilled , excitement dies and so does the preparedness . Enter your illustration of the soldier! Replace the count down clock with that illustration. This would bring a calm in a person instead of anxiety.
So yes, we keep awake, don't know when! Okay great , and in the meantime Peter goes on to say at 2 Peter 3:11,12 & 14. So Peter is highlighting as we go about our lives, while waiting live this way! This is were in the mean time we put effort into vrs 14. 2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.
Thanks for bring to our attention, what the key thought of what being awake should mean.
Comment by anonymous on 2016-09-10 03:38:26
While sitting in the meeting a couple of thoughts occurred to me. Luke Chapter 21 (the parallel account to Matthew Chapter 24) also read in context on its own is also simply talking about the impending great tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem. Nothing more, nothing less. No interpretation required. Luke 21:24 is talking about the Jerusalem of Jesus day, not Jeremiah and Daniel's day. And the legs and feet of the statue in Daniels prophecy are both referring to Rome. Read it carefully. For it was when Rome was a world power that Jesus came to earth and he became King of Gods Kingdom (Dan 2:44) If Matt 24:14 was not fulfilled within the generation of Jesus day, then we have a lot of work left to do. A lot....of work. North Korea anyone? Who wants great tribulation, albeit self-imposed? Doing up the basement sounds preferable actually. I have lost the fear of impending doom and gloom. I thank God and his son Jesus Christ for opening my eyes. I simply wish to live a Christian life now, doing good to others, and being the best person I can be. For the right reasons.
Reply by Dajo on 2016-09-10 07:23:16
So you will appreciate like me, no basements! Generally in the southern hemisphere - NZ, Australia... what are we going to do? You've also already been to the Saturday aftrnoon meeting?
I'm sure that we'll get special instructions as some are worried about not having a basement like most northern Americans do. I feel so sorry for those unfortunate ones named Kevin.
(however I will coninue on my greatest weakness - sarcasm....) mmm.
I was wondering about the legs on th the statue in your previous comments. the 7 world powers in Revelation and the statue of Daniel etc. So will need to look carefully back through those and how they "fit".
Thanks.
Reply by william on 2016-09-10 09:55:41
When I gave you a reply on an earlier comment with a passage from the Parousia about the preaching of the gospel in the whole world, I hoped you would read the book. The Parousia has a chart comparing Matthew 24 & Luke 21, and makes this comment: "No argument is required to prove the strict and exclusive reference of this section to Jerusalem and Judea." You are sort of reinventing the wheel. After years of thinking, you will be able to write books like Philip Desprez and James Stuart Russell did in the 1800's. But you would save a lot of time if you would read their books.
Reply by vinman on 2016-09-10 13:09:12
I just wanted to say thank you william for mentioning those two books. That book called the Parousia. I cannot put it down. I just started reading it this morning and I cannot believe what I am reading. I am not sure how the book will end. But nonetheless it is totally changing my view of all of Christ's words. In fact, because we are so familiar with the scriptures you instantly start connecting scriptures that you know, to what he is talking about. You do this early on in the book. You immediately begin to see where he is going with this subject. You can almost put the book down and figure it out yourself. It is that simple. It is actually very faith strengthening. The Old Testament, the prophetic books now all makes sense. They now come together like a beautiful garment. And while I've always understood that 70 AD was an important year, however the significance of that destruction has been undermined by all religions. That event is absolutely huge in God's mind. I am so excited about reading this book that I can't stop talking about it. I want to share it with all. It is undeniable. No eisegesis here. The Bible becomes more real and sobering. Thanks again.
I also want to thank anonymous. Your comments made me want to research this subject more. I have been obsessed with this.
Proverbs: 2. 4. "If you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures: 5. then you will understand the fear of Yahweh, and find the knowledge of God."Reply by william on 2016-09-10 14:00:27
I'm glad you like the book. Somebody online has The Parousia in a .doc file, which is good for searching fast.
The way I found out about the book is this: I wrote ideas similar to those in the Parousia to Carl Olof Jonsson about 15 or 20 years ago, as if I had discovered them. He wrote me back and told me that my idea was not original and to read the Parousia.
In case you want read Desprez, you should know these things: He wrote mainly about Revelation (and one book about Daniel.) He became influenced by the criticism of the Book of Daniel during the 1800's, and his books got worse as a result. His earlier books about the Apocalypse are simply based on an unbiased reading of Revelation. Desprez is obscure and you probably won't find his book in print. But I managed to find and download pdf files of these books, and a couple of others:
Apocalypse Fulfilled in the Consummation of the Mosaic Economy and The Coming of the Son of Man, 2nd edition), by P.S. Desprez (London: 1855)
BABYLON THE GREAT, NEITHER ROME PAGAN, NOR PAPAL, BUT JERUSALEM. By the Rev. P.S. Desprez (London, 1856) MDCCCLVI.
John or the Apocalypse of the New Testament by Philip S. Desprez (London, 1870)
Desprez preceded Russell, but is almost unknown, and is almost never given credit for being the first writer to express similar ideas in the English language.
Russell and Despez were capable of unbiased contextual reading. That doesn't sound like much, but hardly anybody can do it. People are easily influenced by suggestion from all sources, religion, the news media, etc. For example, after Witnesses are told that the Parable of the Good Shepherd is about the distinction between Christians destined for heaven and for earth, they read the idea into the Bible. The reason Russell wrote his first edition anonymously is that he was afraid of retaliation because of being an apostate. But all Russell an Desprez were doing was figuring out what the Bible writers were trying to say, in an unbiased manner. It is a rare gift to be able to do that.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-10 15:52:07
Hi William,
While Russell may have been good at unbiased contextual reading early on in his research, later on in life, that no longer was the case. His many date-based interpretations and his emphasis on pyramidology undermined much of his earlier work and misled many for a significant period of time. In fact, Rutherford was able to build on his legacy and as a result, Jehovah's Witnesses are still being misled.Reply by william on 2016-09-10 17:13:33
I'm talking about James Stuart Russell (1816 – 1895), a Congregationalist minister, a Scotsman, not Charles Taze Russell (February 16, 1852 – October 31, 1916), the American Bible Student. You mentioned a few weeks ago that you would at some time write about prophecy, including preterism. The modern preterist movement began with a rediscovery of James Stuart Russell's book. I haven't carefully read The Parousia for a long time, but I assume that J. S. Russell was a trinitarian and believed other doctrines that I would argue disagree with him about. So nobody should be believed with total trust including him. And I don't ever deliberately disseminate disruptive ideas on your web site. I am aware that Bible Students sometimes preach their ideas on this web site, but I am not one of them, and I would be a misfit among Bible Students. C.T. Russell looked for future fulfillments of prophecies that J.S. Russell said were probably exclusively fulfilled in the past. We would probably never hear the word "preterist" if not for James Stuart Russell, because the word was used by those who rediscovered J. S. Russell's ideas and wrote their own books. The question of whether Bible prophecies were exclusively fulfilled thousands of years ago, or are yet to be fulfilled recurs on this web site frequently because of the reading comprehension and diligent study of many of the people who participate on this site. They see that there are contextual indications that most Bible prophecies were for their own times. Even if James Stuart Russell had never lived and written a book expressing these ideas so well, and even if the modern preterist movement had never arisen, your web site would still be full of questions about whether Matthew 24 had already been completely fulfilled or not. James Stuart Russell wrote a book expressing these ideas better than anybody before or since, as far as I know.
Reply by vinman on 2016-09-10 18:53:11
I do find this book fascinating. In fact, it almost seems impossible to refute. And that is the issue. However, what I seem to be finding, is that 70 AD seems strained. I mean, 70 AD becomes the equivalent of 1914 to JW's on all levels. Eventually you reach a point where you have to make 70 AD fit. Because once you jump on this train, there is no turning back. You are forced to reckon with 70 AD at everyturn. Because when does it become "logical" to say, "well it is time to change course here"? Not finished yet, but I am careful not to run with it all. That is the tendency when you have just left the Watchtower in recent times.?
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-10 19:34:17
It hardly becomes the equivalent of 1914 on all levels. Attached to that date is the claim that JW's are the only ones who have the truth and are God's only chosen people on earth, which is why there is a need to tenaciously cling to it and make it work no matter what. What is to be gained from believing that what Jesus prophesied came true back then? Not much at all really. There's no hidden agenda here. It's either true or it's not. Did Jesus words about the generation did it come true or not? You have two choices here, either believe it did come true, or believe in some other understanding of a generation. Now what was that again? Something about Joseph's brothers....Gotta go watch that episode to refresh my memory
Reply by vinman on 2016-09-10 20:10:27
Easy tiger. Easy.? I don't have a problem with the generation that Jesus was talking about. In fact, it makes perfect sense that all of Jesus words apply to DOJ. I have always had a hard time believing the duel fulfillment of the generation. Deep down I believed it was Jesus contemporaries. They would see it in there lifetime. This is a new subject for me. I am seeing how Jesus words concerning the resurrection and other scriptures fit in with a "70 ADer" thinking. It would be so easy to accept this book, hook, line, and sinker. And I am not joking when I say that.
I need to further my research into this subject.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-10 21:16:54
Hi Vinman, can you give me a link to the book. I would like to read for myself. If not, can I get it on Amazon?
I don't accept the dual fulfillment of Matthew 24. However, as I've explained in my articles on the generation, I don't believe all of it was fulfilled in the first century either. I believe Jesus was inadvertently asked a question which the disciples supposed would all be fulfilled at the same time, but Jesus knew different. However, as he himself said, there were truths he had for them which he could not yet revealed to them. Therefore, he gave them the best answer he could, providing warnings and reassurances they would need to know, without revealing things which they had no right to know at that point in time.
I believe that verses 23 through 31 were not fulfilled in the first century. I believe these have to do with Christ's presence which is yet future. Personally, I don't like the term perterist because it pigeonholes someone's theological study process and thus can lead to a misunderstanding of a person's true position. If a prophecy has already been fulfilled and I can look at the historical evidence and see that it has indeed been fulfilled, that does not make me a preterist. It just means I can read the evidence clearly. Likewise, if there is no evidence of fulfillment in history, then I must conclude that the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. That doesn't make me a futurist. I'm just a guy who is drawing logical conclusions from the available evidence.
The problem with terms like preterist and futurist in my humble opinion is that they imply eisegesis. I'm not saying that people who feel they have a preterist viewpoint are not reading the Scriptures exegetically. However, if I call myself a preterist or futurist before have read and analyzed any prophecy, the implication is that I am going into the analysis with a particular theological bent or predisposition. So I think when we examine Scripture, we should reject any label other than – if I may coin a word – "Exegetisist". In other words, a student whose starting position is to let the Bible explain itself. :)Reply by vinman on 2016-09-10 21:46:19
Here is the link Meleti.
I agree with not being labeled.
Warning: This book is difficult to refute. Even if your sixth sense tells you differently. ?
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1878_russell_parousia.html
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-10 23:33:58
But...this generation will no means pass away until all these things happen...ok, ok, I'll leave it alone ;-) Everyone believes what they WANT to believe. Myself included. Who is actually right, God only knows. Sincerity of belief doesn't equate to us being right. I've got the rest of my life to live, and it ain't going to be studying Matthew chapter 24
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-10 21:38:56
Ha ha. Sorry vinman, didn't mean to come across all preachy to you. You might also enjoy reading "The Seventy Weeks and The Great Tribulation" by Philip Mauro. I would recommend it. Also, "Which Version - Authorised or Revised" by the same author, in relation to Bible versions. A big eye opener for me after reading his book was realising the start of the 70 weeks prophecy to the Messiah should be counted from the declaration of Cyrus. But that's a topic for another time ;-) There's so many things I just assumed and took for granted, based on what I was told, that when you unassume them the Bible becomes a completely different book to read.
Reply by anonymous on 2016-09-10 21:50:00
It's kind of like when you realise that the other sheep were just the Gentiles. The Greek scriptures just make sense after that
Reply by vinman on 2016-09-10 22:00:51
I agree with your last statement. I currently am obsessed with finding the "Theory of Everything." That is where the Bible has a natural flow that makes sense of everything in context. The Watchtower's explanations of the end of the Jewish system vs end of the world was a messy mumbo jumbo. It left you with questions you could not ask or find answers to. That is why I was drawn to "The Parousia". It does make sense on so many levels. That is what is difficult. I can pretend I don't agree, but my gut says differently. It is sort of depressing at the moment, since it does raise more questions. But again, the arguments are like "Wow".?
Reply by william on 2016-09-12 12:03:29
I don't think you are going to find your "Theory of Everything."
I have a comment about things to keep in mind when interpreting Matthew 24. Sometimes commenters on this web site modify their interpretations with common sense based on what they think is compatible with God's goodness and past actions. And I think that they are right.
Moses Stuart wrote the following in Elements of Interpretation (1822): “The art of interpretation is the art of teaching what is the meaning of another's language; or that faculty, which enables us to attach to another's language, the same meaning as the author himself attached to it.“
I agree with Moses Stuart, but what do you do when the Bible seems to be saying the opposite of what you think it should?
Jonah 3:4 says: “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Yet verse 10 says: “and God repented of the evil which he said he would do unto them; and he did it not.”
If Jonah 3:10 didn't exist, some interpreters would insist that Jonah 3:4 was a lie, since it was a prophecy that was not fulfilled. Strictly speaking, the unfulfillment of Jonah 3:4 violated Deut. 18:20-22, so Jonah would be liable to the penalty of death. And if Jonah 3:10 didin't exist, supporters of the Bible would be trying to prove that Ninevah really was destroyed then. But because Jonah 3:10 conveniently gives the reason the prophecy was not fulfilled, not many people are bothered by the unfulfillment of Jonah 3:4.
As far as I know NOT A SINGLE DOCUMENT EXISTS from the late 1st-century showing how Christians reacted to the destruction of Jerusalem, and how they thought it fit in with Jesus's prophecy. If they had thought that Jesus's prophecy had failed, I think that Christianity would have ceased to exist.
I am not suggesting that Matthew 24 was not fulfilled. But I think that when we read Matthew 24, we should only try to understand the meaning of the evangelist. The goal of interpretation is to explain what the author meant. But when we read the Bible, we are reading incomplete information. So you may never find your "Theory of Everything."
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-09-10 20:59:26
My apologies. I saw "Russell" and just assumed Charles Taze. I do intend to write about preterism at some point very soon I hope. However I want to finish the series on salvation first.
Reply by william on 2016-09-12 12:11:32
I look forward to the future article. No need to apologize about confusing the two Russells. I misread things and jump to conclusions every day. I bet you are going to have over 100 comments on that preterism article.
Comment by Watchtower Music Videos | Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2017-05-24 18:05:37
[…] 2016 Watchtower Study Edition, p. 7. You can find our review of that particular study article here. The theme of the article was “Why Must We ‘Keep on the […]