Bible Study – Chapter 2 Par. 23-34
Zealous Preaching
True Christians are willing and eager to make known the Kingdom of God; thus preaching is a major element in their life. In Russell’s day, his books were distributed by Bible Students called colporteurs. While not common today, this word of French origin was used often during the 19th century to refer to “a peddler of books, newspapers, and similar literature”, specifically of a religious nature. So the name was well chosen for those who peddled Russell’s publications. Paragraph 25 describes the work of one such individual.
“Charles Capen, mentioned earlier, was among them. He later recalled: “I used maps made by the United States Government Geological Survey to guide my covering the territory in Pennsylvania. These maps showed all the roads, making it possible to reach all sections of each county on foot. Sometimes after a three-day trip through the country taking orders for the books in the Studies in the Scriptures series, I would hire a horse and buggy so that I could make the deliveries. I often stopped and stayed overnight with farmers. Those were the preautomobile days.” – par. 25
So apparently these individuals didn’t go simply with the Bible in hand to spread the good news of the Kingdom. Instead, they sold religious literature featuring one man's interpretation of Scripture. Here is what Russell himself thought of his seminal work Studies in the Scriptures:
"On the other hand, if he [the reader] had merely read the SCRIPTURE STUDIES with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures." (WT 1910 p. 148)
While many did this with the best of motives, they were also able to support themselves on the profits made. This continued to be the case well into the twentieth century. I remember one missionary confiding to me back in my youth how during the Depression, pioneers did better than many because of the profits they made in selling the literature. Often people didn’t have cash, so they would pay in produce.
Zealous Christians have preached the good news of the Kingdom for the past 2,000 years. So why does the Organization focus only on the work of a few hundred individuals selling Pastor Russell’s literature?
“Would true Christians have been prepared for Christ’s reign if they had not been taught the importance of the preaching work? Assuredly not! After all, that work was to become an outstanding feature of Christ’s presence. (Matt. 24:14) God’s people had to be prepared to make that lifesaving work the central feature of their lives….’Do I make sacrifices in order to have a full share in that activity?’” – par. 26
Witnesses believe this work is a do-or-die feature of Christ’s presence, even though the Bible speaks of the preaching work preceding the presence of Christ. (Matthew 24:14) Because Witnesses believe that Christ’s presence began in 1914—a belief they alone hold—they take the view that they alone are fulfilling Matthew 24:14. This requires us to accept that the good news of the Kingdom of Christ has not been preached for most of the past 2,000 years, but only began to be preached since Russell’s day. Of course, Matthew 24:14 says nothing about Christ’s presence. It only states that the Good News already being preached when those words were written by Matthew would continue to be preached to all nations before the end.
The false belief that people who don’t respond to the preaching of the Witnesses will die for all eternity at Armageddon is a powerful motivator to get members to make huge sacrifices for the sake of this Witness-style of preaching.
God’s Kingdom Is Born!
“Finally, the momentous year 1914 arrived. As we discussed at the outset of this chapter, there were no human eyewitnesses to the glorious events in heaven. However, the apostle John was given a vision that described matters in symbolic terms. Imagine this: John witnesses “a great sign” in heaven. God’s “woman”—his organization of spirit creatures in heaven—is pregnant and gives birth to a male child. This symbolic child, we are told, is soon to “shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.” Upon its birth, though, the child is “snatched away to God and to his throne.” A loud voice in heaven says: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ.””—Rev. 12:1, 5, 10. – par. 27
1914 would have been momentous if the events attributed to it by JWs actually did occur. But where is the evidence? Without proof, what we have amounts to nothing more than mythology. (Pagan religions are based on mythology. We would never want to imitate such belief systems.) The study this week provides no such evidence, but it does provide interpretation of the highly symbolic vision John had about the birth of God’s Kingdom.
The “woman” in that vision is said to represent God’s heavenly organization of spirit creatures. What’s the basis for that interpretation? Nowhere does the Bible refer to the Angels as a heavenly organization? Nowhere does the Bible refer to all of Jehovah’s spirit sons as His woman? Nevertheless, to give the publishers their due, let’s try to make this work.
Revelation 12:6 says, “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.” If this woman represents Jehovah’s heavenly organization of spirit creatures, we can substitute the real thing for the symbol and restate this: “And all God’s spirit creatures fled into the wilderness, where God’s spirit creatures had a place prepared by God and where they would feed God’s spirit creatures for 1,260 days.”
Who are the “they” that feed all of God’s spirit creatures for 1,260 days, and why do all of the angels have to flee to this place prepared by God? After all, by this time according to John's vision, Satan and the demons have been thrown out of heaven by a portion of God’s spirit creatures under the command of Michael the Archangel.
Let's continue inserting the real thing for the symbol to see how this plays out.
“But the two wings of the great eagle were given to all of God’s spirit creatures, so that they might fly into the wilderness to their place, where they are to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after all of God’s spirit creatures, to cause them to be drowned by the river.” (Re 12:14, 15)
Given that Satan is now confined to the earth, far removed from God’s heavenly organization consisting of all this spirit creatures, how is the serpent (Satan the Devil) able to threaten them with drowning?
Paragraph 28 teaches us that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ. Yet, the book of Daniel describes Michael as being one of the foremost princes. (Da 10:13) That would mean he had peers. This doesn’t fit with what we understand of “the Word of God” who was unique and thus without peer. (John 1:1; Re 19:13) Add to this line of reasoning, the fact that as Michael, Jesus would be an angel, albeit an exalted one. This flies in the face of what Hebrews says at chapter 1 verse 5:
“For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”?” (Heb 1:5)
Here, Jesus is being contrasted with all of God's angels, set apart as something different.
Nevertheless, if Jesus were in heaven at the time for the Devil's ouster, surely he would have been the one to lead the charge against Satan. We are left to conclude that either the Organization is right about Michael being Jesus, despite the evidence of Daniel, or that Jesus wasn’t in heaven at the time of this war.
Paragraph 29 engages in yet more of the revisionist history that we’ve seen already in previous reviews. Quoting Revelation 12:12, the reader is led to believe that WWI was the result of the devil being ‘cast down to earth having great anger and bringing woe upon the earth and the sea.’ The fact is that the Bible Students have never quite been sure when the devil was cast down.
1925: Ousting of the devil 1914, but continued on after that:
The time must come when Satan’s world must end, and when he is ousted from heaven; and the Scriptural proof is that the beginning of such ousting took place in 1914. (Creation 1927 p. 310).
1930: Ousting happened sometime between 1914 and 1918:
The exact time of Satan's falling from heaven is not stated, but manifestly it was between 1914 and 1918, and was afterwards revealed to God's people. (Light 1930, Vol. 1, p. 127).
1931: Ousting definitely happened in 1914:
(...) that the time has come, as God declares, when Satan's rule shall for ever end; that in 1914 Satan was cast out of heaven down to the earth; (The Kingdom, the Hope of the World 1931 p. 23).
1966: Ousting ended in 1918:
This resulted in Satan’s complete defeat by 1918, when he and his wicked forces were ejected from the heavenly realm to be cast downward into the vicinity of the earth. (The Watchtower September 15, 1966 p. 553).
2004: Ousting was completed in 1914:
So Satan the Devil is the guilty troublemaker, and his ouster from heaven in 1914 has meant “woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” (The Watchtower February 1, 2004 p. 20).
One thing that makes all of this chronological vacillation meaningless is the fact that the publications have consistently set the date for Christ’s enthronement at October 1914. Since the Organization teaches that his first act as King was to cast Satan down to the earth, we can be sure that the ouster could not have occurred prior to October of that year.[i] The Bible says that being cast down caused the devil great anger and thus brought considerable woe to the earth. Thus, Witnesses have long used the start of World War I as visible proof of the invisible establishment of Christ's Kingdom in the heavens. This has long been the linchpin of JW doctrine that World War I marks 1914 as the start of the Last Days and the starting point for the measurement of the generation of Matthew 24:34.[ii] If the period between 1914 and 1918 had been as peaceful as the previous five years (1908-1913) there would have been nothing for the Bible Students under Russell and Rutherford to hang their theological hat on. But fortunately to them—or perhaps unfortunately for them—we had a really big war then.
But there’s a problem with all this. A really big problem if one cares to look and ponder.
The War started in early July with the Battle of the Somme. Add to that the historical fact that the nations of Europe had been engaged in an arms race for the previous ten years, and the idea that the whole thing was caused because the devil was angry at being thrown out of heaven evaporates like dew before the morning sun. According to JW theology, Satan was still in heaven when the War started.
An Alternate Interpretation
Perhaps you’re wondering what the application of Revelation 12 is, since the JW 1914 fulfillment doesn't jibe with historical events. Here are some facts to ponder in making this determination for yourself.
Christ became king and sat at God’s right hand in 33 C.E. (Acts 2:32-36) However, he did not immediately go to heaven upon his resurrection. In fact he wandered the earth for about 40 days, during which time he preached to the spirits in prison. (Acts 1:3; 1Pe 3:19-20) Why were they in prison? Could it be because they had been thrown down from heaven and confined to the vicinity of the earth? If so, then who did the ousting, since Jesus was still on earth? Would it not fall then to one of the foremost angelic princes, someone like Michael? It would not be the first time he’d contended with demonic forces. (Da 10:13) Jesus was then taken to heaven to sit at God’s right hand and wait. That would certainly fit with what Revelation 12:5 describes. So then, who is the woman of Revelation 12:1? Some suggest the nation of Israel, while others suggest it is the Christian congregation. It is often easier to know what something is not than what it is. One thing we can be sure of is that Jehovah’s spirit creatures in heaven do not fit the bill.
A Time of Testing
There are times when the manner in which the organization revises history involves not so much a retelling of events as an exaggeration of them. Such is the case with what is stated in paragraph 31.
“Malachi foretold that the refining process would not be easy. He wrote: “Who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen.” (Mal. 3:2) How true those words proved to be! Beginning in 1914, God’s people on earth faced a succession of major tests and hardships. As World War I raged, many Bible Students experienced vicious persecution and imprisonment.” - par. 31
By some estimates, there were only 6,000 Bible Students around the globe who were affiliated with Russell in some way. So the phrase “many Bible Students” has to be tempered by that number. There were other conscientious Christians outside of the ranks of Russell’s Bible Students who stood their ground and were persecuted for not taking up arms against their fellow man. But does that mean Malachi 3:2 was being fulfilled?
We know that Malachi 3 was fulfilled in the first century because Jesus himself says so. (Mt 11:10) Given Malachi’s prophecy, when Jesus came in the first century, we would expect that part of his ministry was a refining work. From that refining, the gold and silver would come out, and the dross would be discarded. This proved to be the case. He demolished all his opposers in the most public way, showing them up for exactly what they were. Then as a result of this refining process, a small group were saved while the majority were done away with by the sword of Rome. If we compare that to what happened between 1914 and 1918, we can see that the organization is trying to make a molehill into a mountain by claiming a similar refining process was going on during those years for the Bible students. In fact, the refining work Jesus began has continued down through the centuries. By this, the wheat is differentiated from the weeds.
Viewing History through a Prism
Reading the final three paragraphs of the study, one would come to believe that people were giving undue prominence to Pastor Russell, but that Rutherford put an end to such creature worship and would not accept nor encourage it for himself. One would also assume that Rutherford was Russell’s named successor and that apostates tried to wrest the Organization from him for their own ends. These ones were resisters (like Satan) who fought against the “progressive revelation of truth”. One might also believe that many stopped serving God because of their disillusionment at the failure of chronological predictions to come true.
The facts of history reveal another view—a clearer view—of what actually transpired. (Remember, this was all supposed to be part of Jesus’ acting as a refiner so that he could choose, in 1919, his Faithful and Discreet Slave. – Mt 24:45-47)
The Will and Testament of Charles Taze Russell called for an editorial body of five members to direct the feeding of God’s people, something akin to the modern day Governing Body. He named the five members of this envisioned committee in his will, and J. F. Rutherford wasn’t on that list. Those named were:
WILLIAM E. PAGE
WILLIAM E. VAN AMBURGH
HENRY CLAY ROCKWELL
E. W. BRENNEISEN
F. H. ROBISON
Russell also directed that no name or author be attached to published material and gave additional instructions, stating:
“My object in these requirements is to safeguard the committee and the journal from any spirit of ambition or pride or headship…”
"To safeguard the committee...from any spirit of...headship". A lofty ambition, but one which lasted only a few months, before Judge Rutherford had himself established as the head of the Organization. Creature worship continued and expanded under this rule. We must remember that “worship” is the word used to render the Greek proskuneó which means “to bend the knee” and refers to one doing obeisance to another, submitting to the will of that one. Jesus showed proskuneó when he prayed on the Mount of Olives for the cup to be removed from him, but then added: “Yet not what I want, but what you want.” (Mark 14:36)
This photo was taken from The Messenger of Tuesday, July 19, 1927 where Rutherford is called our “generalissimo” (foremost general or military leader). It is but one example of the prominence which he sought and got from the Bible students that followed him. Rutherford also authored all the books that were published during his tenure as president and took full credit for them, ensuring his name was in each one. While the God’s Kingdom Rules book would have us believe that creature worship was done away with after 1914, the historical evidence is that it expanded and flourished.
The book would also have us believe that there was apostasy in the organization. History shows that the four “rebellious” directors were concerned that Judge Rutherford, following his election as president, was manifesting all the signs of an autocrat. They were not trying to remove him, but wanted to impose restrictions on what the president could do without getting the approval of the executive committee. They wanted a governing body as per Russell's will.
Rutherford, unwittingly, confirmed what these men feared to be the case in the document he published to attack them called Harvest Siftings.
“For more than thirty years, the President of THE WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY managed its affairs exclusively, and the Board of Directors, so-called, had little to do. This is not said in criticism, but for the reason that the work of the Society peculiarly requires the direction of one mind.”
As for the allegation that many left Jehovah, this is yet another example of the historical facts being skewed. Witnesses are taught to believe that leaving the organization is equivalent to leaving Jehovah. Many did break away from the organization, because of the conduct and teachings of Rutherford. A Google search using the words “Rutherford stand fast” will reveal that whole associations of Bible students broke away because they felt Rutherford was compromising the neutrality of the organization.
As for the allegation that many fell away because they were disillusioned over the failure of certain expectations based on Russell’s prophetic chronology, that is not entirely accurate. It is true that many expected to go to heaven in 1914, but when that failed to happen they placed hope in the teaching that the First World War would evolve into Armageddon. How can we explain the phenomenal growth in the 10 years following 1914 up to 1925 when a reported 90,000 partook of the emblems. This is a result of Rutherford’s campaign “Millions Now Living Will Never Die” which predicted the end would come in 1925. This is what the book, God's Kingdom Rules, calls the "progressive revelation of truth". When 'progressively revealed truth" turned out to be the wild imaginings of one man, many did fall away. By 1928, the number or partakers counted as associating with Rutherford's Organization had fallen to around 18,000. However, we should not assume that these ones fell away from God, but rather from the teachings of Rutherford. The idea that Jehovah and the organization are synonymous (leave one, leave the other) is yet another lie perpetrated to keep people obedient to the teachings and commands of men. It would seem that the whole purpose of the book we are currently studying is to that very end.
Until next week....
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[i] "Jesus’ first act as King was to expel Satan and his demons from heaven." (w12 8/1 p. 17 When Did Jesus Become King?)
[ii] “Then Jehovah would enthrone Jesus as King over the world of mankind. That happened in October 1914, marking the beginning of “the last days” of Satan’s wicked system.” (w14 7/15 p. 30 par. 9)
Archived Comments
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Comment by Rufus on 2016-10-19 09:39:24
The Directors of the Society responded to the "Harvest Siftings" attack with their own publication on Nov 15, 1917 "Facts for Shareholders of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society."
See: http://watchtowerdocuments.org/documents/1917_Facts_For_Shareholders.pdf
The legitimate Directors laid out their case in detail, in preparation for the Jan 1918 annual meeting, by stating:
"As we have seen, we have Bro. Rutherford's own statement in "The Tower" of Nov. 1, 1917, that there never was any election for Directors after the Board was originally organized, so according to the statute and Court decisions the Directors of the Board, as constituted on June 20, 1917, were valid officers of the Society duly qualified to act and there were no vacancies."
Rutherford's dismissal of them was based on his slipping in a revision to the by-laws that gave him, as President, sole power and authority to act in executive capacity, which he did by sacking them, and installing his own crew.
The publication of the 7th Volume of "Studies in the Scriptures" without authorization forced them to set up their own Bible Students organization, which continues to the present. The book's content, ruled subversive in Court, as well as the cutting out of many internal pages to "sanitize" the book (and therefore commit spiritual fornication) led to Rutherford's prison term later in 1918 with his new directors.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-10-20 09:12:46
Thanks for this link, Rufus. I remember reading both Harvest Siftings and the rebuttal of the four directors a few years back. The details of our history are a far cry from the sanitized version the GB present.
Comment by Deo_ac_veritati on 2016-10-19 23:09:07
Sorry my CLAM meeting was held before this article by Meleti was posted. None-the-less, I was able to come up with a comment - unfortunately, I was not picked by the conductor to answer. While I was sitting at the meeting, I googled up some info on Mr. Rutherford and came across this interesting article:
Did J. F. Rutherford lie about being Exonerated?
It's a quick read (about 10-15 minutes) but highly recommended. Whilst I have not had the time to vet out the source of the article, it was very well-written, and I see no reason to doubt what it says.
Some of the points it brings out include:
- A lifelong friend of Rutherford's attorney was on the jury (which found him guilty none-the-less).
- The actual reason charges were filed was that the Society officers were attending and giving depositions to help Bible Students avoid the draft, claiming conscientious objection when there was no such organizational doctrine at the time … and worst of all, some of the Society officers were corresponding with members of the military on active duty during wartime, and trying to induce them to dessert.
- The government offered to drop the charges against one of the Organization's members but the Society objected (!) because they they feared this “eighth” officer would become a witness against them, thus helping the Government’s case.
Another commentor at the meeting described how "many" witnesses were beaten and tarred and feathered during World War 1, due to the "fervor of patriotism" at the time. It was all I could do to not raise my hand to correct her - while there were isolated instances of this during World War 2 (and I certainly don't condone such behavior), to the best of my knowledge it didn't happen during World War 1. In fact, World War 1 was not exactly a popular war - most people living in America at the time did not want to get into the war. Sigh - another bit of our history told wrong - but of course nobody seemed to notice, except me. I remember thinking at the time that there weren't that many Bible Students at the time, though the number escaped me - until you brought out that there were only about 6,000 of them at best. Somehow, I doubt that there were mobs of people tarring and feathering great gobs of Witnesses at the time.
Meleti, your photo of Rutherford being labeled the "Generalissimo" of the BIble Students was fascinating - something I had never seen before. It speaks volumes about the man.
One part of the CLAM you didn't cover in your post was the part "How to Give Good Comments." I must admit that I had to get up and get some air about halfway through this material, as I just could not take it anymore. Some of the points:
- 30 seconds or less (how on earth do you get any spiritual meat in a comment in 30 seconds or less - it's tough).
- Give a simple direct answer to the question (yes, let's not use a lot of critical thinking in our answers).
Interestingly, other than showing how a cited scripture bears on the point under consideration, there was no other mention of using the Bible in our comments.
At last Sunday's Watchtower, I was able to get in a comment that included the fact that our growth is not accelerating, as the first paragraph claimed, but had actually decelerated from six and seven percent in the eighties to only about 2-3 percent today. Naturally, I had to put a positive spin on it at the end, but at least I got it out there. Likewise I was able to comment on Paragraph 21 about how you can become "a blessing to others" with a comment that we could emulate James 1:27 in our lives by looking after orphans and widows, since this is the form of worship that is clean and undefiled to God. I then was able to hook this up with Ephesians 1:5 "For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will" and noted that just as we were all once orphans, spiritually speaking, we were adopted as children into God’s family through Jesus Christ. Just as it was God’s pleasure to do this for each of us, it is our joy and privilege to partner with God in loving, serving, and protecting the orphans and widows among us.
The look on the conductor's face was priceless.
Hope everyone is doing well; Meleti, good to have you back again. Love to all.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-10-20 09:10:09
Thanks for your comment and for that link, Deo_ac_veritati. There is so much of our "rich spiritual heritage" which our JW brethren are completely ignorant of.
Comment by Colette on 2016-10-19 23:17:06
Question: If Jesus is not Michael the archangel, who and what is he?
Reply by anonymous on 2016-10-20 04:58:22
Jesus is "the" Son of God. Michael is one of the angelic sons of God, one of the chief angels. Jesus is not an angel, and he is not Michael. Which is why we don't pray to God through Michael, we pray through Jesus. William Miller thought Michael was Jesus, as it fit his theories and prophetic speculations. So do Seventh Day Adventists and JW's, as they both have the same roots.
Reply by Nicodemus on 2016-10-22 18:34:22
Compare Heb 1:10-14 with Ps 102:25-27; John 12:41 with Isa 6.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-10-22 18:44:44
What conclusion do you draw from those scriptures, Nicodemus?
Reply by Nicodemus on 2016-10-22 19:26:53
The NT writers seem to identify Jesus with Jehovah in a very intimate sense. They seem to use the terms interchangeably. This would be consistent with the idea that the Son is made of the same substance as the Father (John 1:1; Phil 2:6)
Reply by Colette on 2016-10-23 04:38:37
Thinking about my own question has led me to this conclusion, and I would appreciate scriptural comments:
Hebrews 1:3-4 says that Jesus is the exact representation of his (That is God's) very being, this would lead me to understand that Jesus is not an angel, he is of the same substance as his Father, i.e. a godlike spirit being, above the angels. In my mind this ties in with Isaiah 9:6-7 that Jesus is a mighty god.Reply by amoreomeara on 2016-10-24 06:18:20
Hi Colette, I had a similar discussion with my JW friends a while back. Is Jesus Mighty God? To which they said "yes, just as satan is called god of this world and Jesus himself referenced Ps 82:6 "You are gods; you are all children of the Most High."
Which lead me to ask, if there is one TRUE God, is Jesus a TRUE Mighty God, or a FALSE Mighty God?
:-)Reply by Nicodemus on 2016-10-24 18:41:32
An excellent question. Do you post on discussthetruth? We are having an excellent discussion about the nature of the worship given the Lamb in Rev 5 vs. the worship given the Father in Rev 4. All in light of Matt 4:10 and Romans 1:25,26
Reply by Colette on 2016-10-24 22:13:59
Nicodemus, no I haven't been active on discussthetruth, but think I am ready now that I am leaving the JW mindset behind. Thanks for the link, will watch.
Reply by tyhik on 2016-10-24 06:20:47
Colette, Nicodemus: over time, I have collected over 40 NT scriptures, which indicate that even after his resurrection, Jesus is still inferior to the Father. Like, there are at least 9 scriptures stating that the resurrected Jesus has God (Eph 1:17). Jesus' head is God (1 Cor 11:3) and his exaltation, glory and "name above all names" is given him by the Father (Phil 2:9). Regarding difficult verses like John 1:1, Col 1:15 and others, I'd really recommend BeDuhn's "Truth in Translation" book.
Regarding ascribing properties or works of OT Jehovah to Jesus of NT does not in itself mean that Jesus is Jehovah or that they are somehow equal. The Father has given the Son the power over everything and it's Father's will that Son will do things and demonstrate characteristics that Father has demonstrated. I see it analogous to the following: suppose a company owner has been acting as a CEO. Now the owner promotes somebody else to act as a CEO and gives him all the necessary power and means to act in this role. The new CEO will do the same things or even bigger things than the owner previously, but the "head" of the CEO is still the owner and it would be a mistake to confuse their roles.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-10-24 07:11:18
Tyhik, would you be able to email me that list. It will come in handy for future articles. Send it to meleti.vivlon@gmail.com. Thanks in advance and thank you for your comment.
Reply by tyhik on 2016-10-24 08:31:33
Sure, Meleti. And thanks for your hard work. Your articles are much waited and valued.
Reply by Colette on 2016-10-24 07:52:53
Dear Tyhik Thank you for your input. The way I understand it, Jesus is of the same substance as His Father (Heb 1:3) - a god-like spirit creature, not equal to Him, just as I am the same substance (or form of life) as another human being, (also not equal or the same person) and different to and superior to another form of life, such as an animal.
Reply by Nicodemus on 2016-10-24 18:43:23
If you have not watched it before this is an excellent debate on this topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xVkKkpo-lk
The orthodox position is that the Father and Son are seperate persons which is very clear in scripture. As you say, the Bible does teach that the Son shares the substance of the Father and in many cases shares other attributes, such as being the creator of all things. (John 1:3; Col 1:15-18)
Reply by Menrov on 2016-10-24 08:53:41
the Son (not equal to) Father. However, Jesus at this moment has equal power as the Father. At this moment, the Son is NOT subjected to the father: 1Co 15:28 And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.
That is why it is said: Joh 5:23 so that all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Reply by Nicodemus on 2016-10-24 18:40:43
If you have an account on discussthetruth there is a good discussion about that book going on right now.
If you have not already done the research, you will find that in orthodox Christian doctrine is that the Son is subject to the Father. They share the substance, but the Son is subject. Just as man and woman are both human, and woman is subject to man. Jesus and Father are both God (YHWH) but the Son is subject.
Note for example the comparison of natures here:
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-4.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/1313.htm
compared to the language that is used of the Father and Son (comparing positions)
http://biblehub.com/john/14-28.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/3187.htm
The orthodoxy is an attempt to reconcile the following Biblical truths:
1. There is one and only one God
2. The Father and the Son are both called God
3. The Father and the Son are separate persons
Reply by Nicodemus on 2016-10-24 19:09:33
I highly recommend reading through Heb 1 in a mainstream translation and looking up the marginal references to the OT. It is pretty mind blowing IMO.
Comment by JimmyG on 2016-10-20 00:40:49
"The War started in early July with the Battle of the Somme." This battle occurred between July and November 1916, some 2 years into the war. WW1 started July 28 1914 when Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, more than 2 months prior to WT's October 1914 fixation.
Comment by Speedy50 on 2016-10-20 06:31:08
Small Point. You state "The War started in early July with the Battle of the Somme."
The War started in July 1914, the Battle of the Somme started in July 1916.
Comment by Dajo on 2016-10-20 07:55:08
Excellent summing up of the meeting that I listened to on the phone. I can no longer be at the hall as, for me personally it would be hypocritical. .. (however I realize that is not the case with everyone). It's just the way I feel right now.
I will probably still attend off and on. So confusing. So much (thankfully small) family.
My point. Just listening to the audio and the pain of the conductor trying to get answers from this self agrandising lesson/session/hypno session was embarrassing.
The pain will get worse. The audience will diminish. Ironically the parts before this SO CALLED 30 MINUTE "BIBLE STUDY"! Was all about HOW we can invite people to the ALL IMPORTANT meetings. .?
Thanks again, Meleti.
Comment by leaving_quietly on 2016-10-22 13:20:02
It occurs to me this whole 1914 business with WW1 is a red herring. The Bible Students were largely an American religion at the time. America didn't enter the war until 1917. Don't you think if Satan were indeed ousted in 1914, he would have persecuted "God's people" first?
Comment by Yehorakam on 2016-10-23 20:25:15
Funny about the Generalissimo Rutherford. Didn't know he had that title. Interestingly, that is the same title that they gave to the dictator "Generalissimo" Trujillo who ruled with an iron first in the Dominican Republic.
About Jesus enthronement, a few years ago, I knew there was something fishy when I did some reading in Wikipedia on the battles of WW1. I was surprised to see that the war started months before Oct 2, and millions died in those battles. I thought, if Christ was enthroned on Oct 2, and his first action as king was to kick Satan out of heaven....and Satan came down with great anger...then the war should have started after Oct 2, not months before. Then, when observing very important events influenced by Jehovah in the Bible, they ALWAYS corresponded with specific important dates on the Jewish calendar (Passover, Pentecost, new year, festival of booths, day of atonement). That is a fact that cannot be denied. Yet, Oct 2 year 1914 does not correspond with any important dates on the Jewish calendar for 1914. It seems as if Russell took Oct 2, 607 and added 2520 years exactly, using days on our Gregorian calendar. Jehovah has never used the Gregorian calendar with respect to his purposes.
As regards the woman, you are very right that is not "God's heavenly organization." I believe it to be Israel, but I wouldn't expect others to accept my view.
As regards Jesus' becoming king of God's Kingdom in 33, and nothing changed in human rulership? I don't buy it or agree with it. Your reference in Acts 2:32-26 doesn't say he became king of God's kingdom. It says he sat at God's right hand waiting to be given the power to destroy his enemies. It's no different than the lie that the "Organization" has taught. They have taught that he was enthroned and "present" in 1914, but remained his presence remained invisible to our eyes, not discernible by many, and that there would be no immediate effect on human rulership and affairs. So now, instead of it being 102 years of rulership with no effect on human govenments, we want to stretch it to 2000 years of rulership with no effect on human governments. The other day I was reading Matthew 24:24 and understood something even more clearer. It says:
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you. Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be."
Jesus warned us that there would be false prophets trying to persuade us that Jesus had come as king and was present, but that he was in an "interior room".... in other words you wouldn't notice it. These false prophets would use some reasoning to convince us that Jesus would be present as king, and yet his presence would not be easily discernible (as if he was in a private room). That is exactly what Russell claimed after his predictions didn't come true and every "faithful" Witness has bought into that story every since. Jesus made it VERY clear that when he returns, it is because he has secured kingly power and comes to settle accounts, and his presence as king would be as remarkably discernible as lightning crossing the entire sky. Daniel 2:44 makes it very clear that the establishment of God's kingdom will result in the immediate removal of all rival governments. Daniel 7:13,14,27 make it clear that when the Son of Man and the holy ones receive the kingdom "all the rulerships will serve and obey even them." The 7th trumpet announcing the establishment of God's kingdom and Jesus as King is immediately followed by Armageddon, the removal of rival governments. To my understanding, the majority of the events of Revelation have not yet had fulfillment. Christ also said he would rule as king with his anointed followers at his side. He hasn't been ruling without them for 2000 years. Neither Christ nor the anointed have received the kingdom and for that reason, the other rulerships still exists. So, I cannot agree that Jesus began to rule as King of God's Kingdom in 33.
This is not to say Jesus doesn't have "all power and authority in heaven and on earth", but the scriptures make it very clear in what respect by modifying that statement that it is "with respect to God's congregation" (Eph 1:22). Those that are of the 'congregation of God' are his body, and he is their head. They have been transferred into the governing of his beloved son (Col 1:13). They are ruled by him directly at present and answer only to him. For that reason, someone who is truly anointed would have a problem with a governing body forcing them to accept and repeat their false teachings. They are directed directly by Christ and so in a sense, he is truly ruling over them. When he begins to rule as King of God's kingdom over this earth, I am confident they will be with him and we will see a quick end to these rulerships.
Much love,Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-10-24 07:15:18
I take your point about when Jesus was/is appointed as king, Yehorakam. I won't go so far as to say I agree, because I think we're talking about two distinct things: The securing of kingly power and the return of Christ. (Luke 19:12) However, rather than get into it here, I'll prepare an article so that through topical comments we can get the feedback from the community to see if we can arrive at a consensus. As always, I appreciate your thoughts and research.
Comment by tyhik on 2016-10-25 02:14:35
Meleti, you mention in the text some statistics about Bible Students, like estimated 6,000 of them around 1914 or 90,000 partakers in 1925. Apparently I've googled it wrong. JWfacts has recent stats. Where to look for the historical numbers?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2016-10-25 08:59:43
Check out this article for the sources for the 90,000 number. I can't recall where I got the 6,000 from, but I'll do some research. It goes way back, so I'm relying on memory, but if someone else can help out with that figure, or correct me if I'm wrong, please do so.
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2016-11-12 05:23:12
Excellent article! Very thorough!
And an great place to start to unravel strongholds placed by GB to understand Revelation Better.