Identifying the True Religion — Neutrality: Addendum

Comment by Gogetter on 2017-03-07 18:57:40

Thank you Meleti!
You CAN lead a man to water and make him drink......if you salt his food first!
That's how I ended up here on your site, I had visited many other ex-witness websites and chat rooms, didn't care for most of the anger and vitriol, but I found your link mentioned on one and have been an avid visitor for the last several years. I was skeptical at first and didn't want to drink....but your honest Bible based articles and loving spirit "salted" my spiritual food and I am truly grateful.

I have often stated that when you look at the modern day Organization of Jehovahs Witnesses it possesses one of the most ingenious machinations of control than almost any other cult in the world.
With one word "disfellowship" and all that it entails they are able to keep thousands or maybe millions who must be spiritually awake,captive while holding family and friends as hostages. The devil couldn't have come up with a better Christian prison.....or did he?

Agape my Brother

• Reply by John S on 2017-03-08 08:11:54

  Yes these are all good questions.
  
  This quote from your previous discussion tells the tale;
  
  
  
  “Some may feel that they can interpret the Bible on their own. However, Jesus has appointed the ‘faithful slave’ to be the only channel for dispensing spiritual food. "Since 1919, the glorified Jesus Christ has been using that slave to help his followers understand God’s own Book and heed its directives. By obeying the instructions found in the Bible, we promote cleanness, peace, and unity in the congregation. Each one of us does well to ask himself, ‘Am I loyal to the channel that Jesus is using today?’ ”
  (w16 15/11 p. 16 par. 9)
  
  Really?
  
  Here's what Apostle John said about what religion states and what is truth.
  
  "These things I write you about those who are trying to mislead you. And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but as the anointing from him is teaching you about all things , and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him." 1 John 2: 26,27
  
  "let God be found true though every man be proved a liar." Rom. 3:4
  
  Back in 1970, when I began my search to please God, and worship according to Bible truth, it was WT that awakened and kindled the desire to do that. But as time has gone by, it was all too obvious they left off truth for some other corporate/money/power/control agenda.
  
  Who wants to follow that down their whole lifetime as the world slowly descends into final fulfillment of Revelation prophecies?
  
  I put my life in Jesus' and the Apostles' teachings. Men can give no, and I mean NO guarantees about how God gives his spirit and that there is 'one true religion' he has used to 'dispense the spiritual food.'
  
  The Bible is the food, and the spirit is the teacher...and what is served up to everyone on earth who has one and reads it, the recipe results in "living water" coming to that reader with an open heart to receive it....regardless what church he attends, if any.
  
  Anyone agree?

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-08 09:24:33

    You have my vote, John S

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-09 23:02:29

      Isn't voting a violation of neutrality?
      :-))

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-10 07:34:58

        Good point! I've cast lots, and it came up for you. :)

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-10 19:34:32

    I wonder if anyone has noticed how self-serving the GB is in proclaiming themselves the FDS. They are the ones who define the criteria for who the FDS is, and who are they? The GB themselves.
    
    By presuming to interpret the Bible account of the FDS as a prophecy, and then applying it to themselves, they materially benefit, by being granted power and authority over a world-wide organization. Doesn't that add up to an enormous conflict of interest? To my knowledge, NO ONE besides the GB has ever independently verified the conclusion that the GB is the FDS. They proclaim it for themselves as (literally) the 'gospel truth' and the expect everyone to agree with them without question.
    
    Does anyone believe the following applies to the GB? I do ...
    
    John 5:31: "If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true."

    • Reply by Dajo on 2017-03-10 20:56:25

      Robert, you said - "I wonder if anyone has noticed how self-serving the GB is in proclaiming themselves the FDS."
      This was a key factor in my "Somethings wrong here.." moment. I said to my wife at the time "these guys seeem to be making it up as they go.." (by the way, that went down badly)!
      I like your reasoning on them "verifying" themselves and the scripture is spot on. Thanks.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-10 21:47:41

      Hi Robert. I believe I made that very point in this article:
      
      http://meletivivlon.com/2013/09/28/who-really-is-the-faithful-and-discreet-slave/

      • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-11 18:03:48

        Yes, that's a good article, I just checked it out.

• Reply by SeasonsOfGrace on 2017-03-08 15:04:44

  Hi Gogetter,
  
  " With one word “disfellowship” and all that it entails they are able to keep thousands or maybe millions who must be spiritually awake,captive while holding family and friends as hostages. The devil couldn’t have come up with a better Christian prison…or did he? "
  
  SPOT. ON.
  Also, from my research on ex-mormon websites and also following along with the Scientology series on TV, it appears that this 'disfellowhipping method' is what keeps most people who are awake in their own religions from being able to leave. The exact terminology is a bit different between the high control religious groups (ie- cults) but the process is exactly the same.
  Shun any and all family members and friends who disagree with the 'church' or 'organizations' teaching.
  
  It was really eye opening for me to examine other religions' shunning practices because I had no idea how very similar the process is to ours. Or that they even had disfellowshipping/ excommunicating/ disconnection policies. A Christian Prison indeed.

Comment by Search-truth on 2017-03-07 20:07:36

Hi Meleti,

The same thing occured with me. I tried to discuss some of these matters with family & friends.The minute you start showing scriptures or proof that their teaching is wrong they refuse to listen or say do you know more than the ffds? Some my say I'm being overly critical. If it gets heated well they will use the A word. Lol lol or borderline apostate..Of course the org can never do wrong because with years & years of indoctrination & brainwashing the org is always good,trusting, loving, peaceable, helping, Godly, caring etc etc..You know what I mean..The org tickles the wars of most listeners & yes most are listeners because beware if you become a thinkers & start questioning teachings. We've become like the Catholics, listening to the priest & adhering to the church because it's getting to big..It must have gods approval, again because we're told so..Lol lol

Anyways I could go on & on..

Peace out..
Search.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-07 22:40:11

  I think the next time someone asks me if I think I know more than the Governing Body, I'm going to answer, "Well, I know enough not to join the United Nations and I know enough to report a child rapist to the police, so what do you think?"

  • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-09 19:39:32

    Whenever I read about someone being confronted with this question, "So, do you think you know more than the Governing Body" it just makes me livid. We ought to confront this question, head on, for what it is.
    
    It is clearly a "lose-lose" question, right up there with "have you stopped beating your wife?" Whether you say Yes or No, it doesn't look good. Assuming you are person that does not beat their wife, the technically correct answer is No, since you cannot "stop" something you never started. But, most people would not appreciate the subtlety of that answer.
    
    Likewise with the GB question. If you say "Well, no, I don't know more than the GB" their immediate reply will be, "Then why are you questioning their decisions and judgment?" If you say "Yes, I do know more than them", their reply will be (a) "No you don't, you are bragging or lying", and (b) "Only someone proud, arrogant and presumptuous would make such a claim, and I would never believe anything such a person would say; goodbye."
    
    Do we see the true nature of this question? It is a weapon, a means of intimidation, to silence critics and suppress any question about this supreme authority.
    
    Instead of being intimidated, we ought to use Jesus' example when questioned about his authority. He turned around and asked his opposers a question of their own, which they could not answer. Using that example, what questions could WE ask? Here are some:
    
    1. "That is an interesting question, because there doesn't seem to be any good way to answer it. Tell me, do you believe there is anyone whatsoever that knows more than the GB? Anyone on earth? If such a person existed, and they really DID know more, why would it be presumptuous of them to simply admit the truth of the matter? On the other hand, if you believe that absolutely no one knows more than the GB, that would make the GB the singularly most brilliant people anywhere on the face of the earth, surpassed by no one. That sure sounds like bragging to me. If you would not accept bragging from me, why should I accept it from you?"
    
    2. "Tell me, do you believe that, as a general rule, no one should question the teachings, actions or motives of someone else unless they know more than the person they are scrutinizing? If so, do you apply that principle in your preaching work? For instance, suppose you meet a Catholic and debate them on the doctrines of their religion. I ask, do either you or the Catholic you are speaking to know more about the Catholic religion than the Pope does? It is unlikely. That being so, by what right do you question the Pope's leadership, his stewardship over Catholic doctrine and dogma, etc.? Since you don't know more than the Pope, it disqualifies you from ever discussing religion with Catholics. Are you will to accept that restriction? If not, why would you use the very same principle to restrict my questioning of the GB, when you yourself would not accept the same restrictions placed on you?"
    
    3. "Are you saying that I HAVE TO know more than the GB to question them? Suppose I were in a math class, and the instructor wrote 1+1=3. Do I need advanced post-doctorate degrees in mathematics to have the right to say 1+1=3 is wrong?"
    
    4. "Are you saying that anyone who presumes to know more than the GB is not only proud and arrogant, but disloyal to God? If so, are you familiar with Nathan H. Knorr, a past president of the WT? Knorr took over from Rutherford. You may be aware that Russell, and then Rutherford, wrote most of the WT literature during their time in office. It is a known fact that Knorr was a poor Bible scholar, and so he turned over this task to Fred Franz. Knorr was the head of the GB as it existed in those days, and yet Franz took on a role that implicitly asserted that he knew more than Knorr. Should Franz have been criticized and censured for presuming to know more than a GB member?"
    
    5. "Whenever WT revises its doctrine and comes up with 'new light', are they not presuming to know more than the GB members that devised the doctrines they are replacing? By what right can they do that? Other religions do not discard their own prior past teachings so easily or treat those who first wrote them down with such disrespect. Doesn't the GB show disrespect even to itself?"
    
    I am sure there are other, similar questions that could be asked.
    
    The main point to remember is, do we really NEED to know more than they do? Is that a condition for questioning what they do? Do we ourselves apply that kind of constraints in our own lives? If I take my car to be repaired, and I am not satisfied with the work, is it necessary for me to be a state-certified and licensed auto mechanic to complain about how the work was done? What would YOU say in a situation like that, if the mechanic told you, "Do you know more about auto repair than I do? If not, it's none of your business to question how I do my job"? Would YOU accept that answer?
    
    If you wouldn't, and you believed you had the right to ask questions - a right that was NOT contingent upon having knowledge superior to the one you were questioning - then why can't I ask questions about the GB - regardless of who knows more than whom? By what right do you attempt to restrain or intimidate me from even asking?

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-09 20:22:31

      Before I answer that if you can tell me first which group the Governing Body belongs to from Matthew 11:25. Don't read it. Just let them look it up.
      
      “. . .At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.” (Mt 11:25)
      
      If they say "wise and intellectual" then you can say, well I am just a babe. If they say "the babes", then you can say we'll aren't we all supposed to be babes?
      
      If they say, it doesn't apply or I don't know, you can follow Jesus' lead:
      
      So they answered Jesus: “We do not know.” He, in turn, said to them: “Neither am I telling you by what authority I do these things.

      • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-09 20:52:46

        Meleti, you said it better than me, and in fewer words to boot!

        • Reply by Dajo on 2017-03-10 05:51:56

          Hello Robert,
          Feb 2017 Study WT page 26 par 12 - Says:
          "The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction."
          So, I said to my friend (after getting them to read that)
          ...."Therefore if that is the case, wouldn't it be important for us to treat with caution - and indeed even question some things?"

    • Reply by tyhik on 2017-03-10 16:40:28

      Hi Robert.
      
      You are absolutely right that this question is best answered by a question. You offered some good ones. And Meleti's response with Matt 11:25 is a good one too. I once used the following defence against two elders. I read them James 1:5
      
      "So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him."
      
      Then asked them that did they notice that God gives generously to anyone, not just to GB, but to anyone, to me, to them, whoever. That's God's promise. And then I read them James 1:6-7
      
      "6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah"
      
      Then I asked that don't they think there is a danger that if a witnesses think the GB sure knows more than they then Jehovah will keep it so, because these witnesses do not have faith in God's promise of James 1:5 .

  • Reply by Karen on 2017-03-15 20:44:35

    Well said Meleti

  • Reply by River on 2017-07-10 18:42:52

    I use to say: How come we learned to preach for people that the beroean "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Ac 17.11)
    But later we ask them to shut up.
    
    I also try with humor saying: We are not thinking for ourself, we have 7 hired men to do the job.

Comment by THE DRIFTER on 2017-03-07 20:31:12

My take -
The very idea of reasoning on doctrine is futile.
For the most part, our Elder Body is comprised of zealots. Where has discussing anything with a zealot been successful?

God's Spirt will sort it out.

Now, ...discussing our glorious history is another matter all together....

Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream...

• Reply by Karen on 2017-03-15 20:43:43

  Merrily, merrily life is but a dream .... or rather WT doctrine is but a dream ....

Comment by Colette on 2017-03-08 06:23:25

AT Matthew 24:51 the evil slave is assigned to a place with the hypocrites. So hypocrisy is quite obviously the sin the f&ds commits. Apart from secretly being a member of the UN, while lambasting other churches for belonging, for me the greatest hypocrisy is to pretend to be a moral organization that swiftly deals with wrongdoing like fornication, but then secretly allowing the RAPE of children.

Yes, fornication is wrong, but at least there were two consenting adults. HOW can they justify sexual abuse of children. IT is even MORE wrong. I know of someone who was abused when she was about 12 years old, and then she was put under reproof and restrictions as she was found guilty of rape by consent. And then everyone in the org hypocritically covers it up so as 'not to bring reproach on Jehovah's name'.

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-11 18:12:25

  A significant flaw in the GB's FDS doctrine is how they handle the evil slave issue. In the past, they treated that as literal, and said there was an "evil slave class". Today, they say virtually nothing about the evil slave, who they now view as merely a 'warning' for faithful Christians to avoid their example.
  
  That is a problem. The account of the FDS is, both by its composition and where it appears in context, clearly identify it as a parable. But no, WT says it is a prophecy that applies to the last does. However, when then then say the evil slave is merely a warning and not little, that is precisely what a parable is.
  
  So, what they have done is to alter Jesus' words to make them become a "hybrid prophetic parable", in which the beginning is a prophecy, and literally in mid-sentence the name of this account changes (back?) into a parable.
  
  It should be pointed out that *no where* in the entire Bible is such a hybrid literary device used. To assume it is being used here is wishful thinking on the part of WT, at best, and tampering with the Bible's message at worst. That alone is a powerful argument that the WT interpretation of this passage is in error.

  • Reply by Vox Ratio on 2017-03-11 23:13:20

    Hi Robert,
    
    Those are good points. However, to be fair to the GB's own novelty, the current interpretation of the evil slave is not unique to themselves. It appears that in their most recent revision they took counsel from the NET Bible's translation footnotes.

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-12 08:40:12

      Yes, if we look at the NET Bible study notes, it does seem WT lifted their interpretation from them. WT does say that 'some scholars' view it that way, but in typical fashion, they don't attribute the source.
      
      I don't really disagree that the evil slave is hypothetical, since that's what a parable is: a warning about what may or may not happen, depending on the conduct and response of his listeners.
      
      My objection was that if Jesus is talking about a FDS and immediately follows that by talking about an evil slave, it is hard to view it as anything other than a single train of thought. It doesn't make sense to claim the first half is a prophecy and the second half is a parable. The Bible doesn't use such literary constructions anywhere else, so why assume it here? The most reasonable conclusion is that the whole thing was a parable.
      
      If we view it in that more reasonable context, what does the passage say? Any individual Christian can be faithful and wise, if they choose to be. If we view the first half as prophecy, then out of all the billions of Christians that have lived and died from the first century until now, the only ones that were faithful and wise are seven old men in Brooklyn, New York. Is that what Jesus had in mind - that this vitally important prophecy about the last days was not describing all of his followers, but just seven men in New York in the 21st century?
      
      We must also acknowledge that this "hybrid prophecy/parable" theory is self-serving. If the evil slave is said to be hypothetical, then people (that is, R+F JW's) won't be looking for them. If they were real, some might be inclined to scrutinize the GB and question whether any of them are, or could be, evil slaves. The GB does not want that scrutiny, so how convenient and fortunate for them that viewing evil slaves as 'hypothetical' in this way lets them off the hook.

      • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-12 19:12:49

        Complicating things still further is the introduction of two additional slaves in Luke's parallel account in the 12 chapter from verse 41 onward.

• Reply by Karen on 2017-03-15 20:42:01

  As the ARC probes deeper into the disgusting abuse of children, the numbers are growing, the stories more disturbing. As former victims many now survivors feel free enough, supported enough, believed enough, their horrific stories emerge of paedophile rings at very high levels. As Colette has stated these abused are all too often punished by the elders within their congregations. Forced to face their abuser and retell their horrific story before two male witnesses without any female support. Only to be disbelieved and labelled liar 'filthy apostate' if they dare to go to the RC. Too many have completed suicide due to this evil cult...
  
  Hypocrisy at the highest level ... the Malawi/Mexico is but one horrific example....
  
  Yes Colette 'All in the name of Jehovah' How he must look down and weep ...

Comment by Danish Dynamite on 2017-03-08 09:27:09

When i had my wake-up call 3 months ago i was asking myself the question. what would be the the most faith-shaking argument for me to deal with.
would it be an argument regarding doctrine or would it be hypocrisy.
I believe that the Bible is sufficient so therefore my whole emphasis has been on doctrine. Now, the Bible is actually sufficient in my case, but it seems like arguments that deals with hypocrisy is much more powerful when it comes to other people.
discussing the whole idea of neutrality brings to mind the Mexico-Malawi situation. Extreme Double standards where prevalent.

The doctors of the law and the Pharisees sit in the chair of Moses; therefore do what they tell you; pay attention to their words. But do not follow their practice; for they say one thing and do another.—Matthew 23:2, 3,

Thank you Meleti for your honest application of 2 Corinthians 4:2

"We have set our faces against all shameful secret practices, we use no clever tricks, no dishonest manipulations of the Word of God. We speak the plain truth and so commend
ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God"

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-08 10:17:56

  Bjorn, you make an excellent point. When I think back on the many encounters Jesus had with the Pharisees, his major rebuke of them always went back to their hypocritical actions. He even told people to do as they say, but not as they do. (Mt 23:3) He spent his last days publicly denouncing them as hypocrites. (Matthew chapters 22 and 23)

• Reply by Colette on 2017-03-09 01:07:27

  Bjorn I have discovered is that there is always a second biblical argument that seems equally valid from a scriptural viewpoint. We cannot be certain of any doctrine. No one has a 100% correct understanding of scripture, and I doubt that it is possible.
  
  Yet we can be sure of our conduct, our lack of hypocrisy, and our love. These are things that we can understand and do. Jesus said true Christians will be identified by their fruit as a fine tree CANNOT bear rotten fruit and vice versa, not by their bible knowledge.

Comment by eve04 on 2017-03-08 16:35:21

Hi All
I am new to the site or I should say posting. I have enjoyed all the articles and comments.
I agree with Colette so much, they swiftly take action against those that fornicate even when the individual goes to the elders on their own, which to me is a sign of repentance. However, Pedophiles can stay in the congregation. Not only are they a threat to the congregation but the communities in which the live. They should be registered as Sex Offenders but instead are protected. APPALLING!!!
I did not know until recently from this site and others that WBTS was registered as a UN member. WOW! Also does anyone remember not only friends with the political system but the Religious as well.
I googled Watchtower Amicus Curiae Jimmy Swaggart!
A twisting of scriptures is bad enough but I to can’t deal with hypocrisy
Two organizations they tell us to stay away from and yet we have this.

Comment by Christian on 2017-03-08 23:57:07

We turn ourselves inside out trying to get the precise truth straight. I just don’t see that Jah or Jesus are so hung-up over it. Truth, it seems can be a variable and timing has much to do with it. But if we scour the Gospels and Paul’s letters we might notice that the real emphasis is on the sincerity and integrity one holds to one’s belief. When Christ debated with the Parisees et al he never ever engaged with doctrinals. What condemned all those men was not the particulars of their belief but their hypocrisy in their application of what they said they believed but failed to do.

When the Apostles were raising funds to help those in need the married couple, Ananais and Saphirra, who came to the Apostles with a substantial gift offering both lost their lives over it because the were not true to the ‘truth’ they stated. The were in fact lying hypocrites and for that they were struck down. Paul rebuked Peter publicly for hypocrisy. Paul also urged members of the congregation on several occasions not to impose their concientious belief of a given matter on to others who held a different viewpoint. On another occasion Jesus had to rebuke Jas and John (yet again) over their arguing who of them was the greatest and Jesus highlited the humility of a young child as the basis for potential greatness. Then, to change the subject of their rebuke John reported about someone else, who was not with them, doing works in Christ’s name. Did Jesus become all upset because that peerson wasn't doing things the 'organized' way. No, just the opposite in fact, he welcomed it. Mk 9:38-41; Lu.9:49,50;

So, for me, I’m of the belief that’s it not with what exactitude that our faith operates, unless of course that belief is palpably false, but our loyalty and faithfulness and integrity to that held belief. Nowadays my personal belief is quite simple. Was the Kingdom est in 1914 - NO. Did God choose a Special People in 1919 - NO. Are JWs the only religion in the field proclaiming Good News - NO. Are there 2 classes of Christians - NO. How many other beliefs are wrong, a number. I could never see that the UN was an evil World Power, if anything it was a Paper Tiger. But in fact UN organizations do tremendous good around the globe. OK then, should the Watchtower have enlisted as an NGO at any time -NO. Why not? Because of its own declared position on the UN. By joining, it became a gross hypocrisy given the mountain of words the wt has built declaring the UN to be an evil organization. Classic example of man made religion being hoisted on its own pitard. If we as humans could just step back and read, re-read and continue to read God’s Word, it doesn’t seem too hard to get to understand the thinking of God and Christ on so many matters. And, once we have a way forward as Christians then maintain the Integrity of the belief we declare to be following. Let your yes mean yes etc. It’s only when man gets too clever for his own good that we come unstuck, and start to weave all manner of hidden meanings into the Holy Writings and make bold claims, prophetic or otherwise, even attaching dates to them. The Society painted itself into a corner when it claimed God’s Kingdom came in 1914 by trying to be different to mainstream Christian religions. And then to declare oneself as God’s only channel from 1919 onwards was just a sheer folly. Men lost sight of the need to simply be a follower of Jesus Christ and not become followers of other men who had egotistical viewpoints and who wanted followers after themselves so they could control them.

So now, many of us here are left with a dilemma. What to do? Do we race in, turn over all the tables and find ourselves with further access to all our family and friends cut off? Do we mutter under our breathes til the end of things? Do we quietly seek out Christian associates within the congregation and gently expose them to truthful thinking? Do we isolate ourselves entirely? Do we find another religion? That, dear reader, I leave with you to work out.

• Reply by Colette on 2017-03-09 01:03:18

  Dear Christian, you give the answer as to what we should do. We should not be hypocrites or hide what we are - Psalm 26:4

• Reply by Karen on 2017-03-15 20:29:04

  This was my dilemna Christian.
  
  Well written, as Colette has responded ....
  "I Have not sat with men of untruth.
  And with those who hide what they are I do not come in"

Comment by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-09 15:53:24

You wrote,

"However, the issue isn’t whether the standard that Jehovah’s Witnesses have set up for determining the true religion is valid or not. The issue is that Jehovah’s Witnesses have set it up in the first place. They do accept that standard, and they use it to judge all other religions. Therefore, Jesus words should guide us in utilizing their own criteria."

I am afraid the issue (at least, AN issue), really IS whether the WT standard for true religion is valid or not.

Why? Consider it from WT's point of view. Suppose you were to present irrefutable evidence that WT was not neutral. If you were them, and you needed to defend yourself, what would you do? If it were me, I would simply change the definition of neutrality. Or, I would say that I was mistaken when I thought some aspect of neutrality really was a defining and deciding factor, and then come up with some "new formula" that absolved WT of all responsibility. You think they won't do that?

You are forgetting how easily WT can change the rules of the game any time they wish. Example: Russell thought the superior authorities were the worldly governments. Rutherford said, Oh, no it's God and Christ - any anyone who says otherwise is an apostate and an enemy of God. Fast forward a number of years, and what do you know? Now WT says the superior authorities really ARE the worldly governments and always were all along. Does that upset any die-hard dedicated JW? No. They reason, "In a time of war, believing God and Christ were the superior authorities was doctrinally wrong, but believing that helped the brothers maintain their integrity, so even if it was a lie, we benefitted from believing that lie". Seriously, they really believe that way. I know. I did for a time myself.

Do you really think you will "catch" the WT in this way, by showing decisively that they were not neutral? Some will agree, and others will say that they will wait upon new light to clarify the neutrality issue, and in any case they will continue to bow down to the commands of men, exchanging true for falsehood, and say WT is "God's organization".

Meleti, for everyone's sake, I wish this were otherwise, but it's not otherwise. Your observations about neutrality are clever, well-presented and sufficiently valid for most reasonable people. But that alone is not enough to reach people who don't want to be reached.

Sigh.

Robert

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-09 16:04:02

  You are absolutely right, Robert. The majority will not accept this reasoning. I've found the most common response is, "Well, they're not members anymore." As if that excuses them. How silly really.
  
  "Hey, that man hit me with a hammer."
  
  "Really? Is he doing it now?"
  
  "No, he stopped."
  
  "Then what are you on about?"
  
  It is for that one-in-a-hundred or one-in-a-thousand that this reasoning hits home that we make the effort. The road is indeed cramped and the gate narrow, but some will go through it.

  • Reply by amoreomeara on 2017-03-09 16:20:38

    Hi Meleti,
    
    I think what Robert says is true, that the majority won't listen. It's the same for any preaching work. As frustrating as it may be, it doesn't mean it's not worthwhile!
    
    I think it is God who changes hearts, but think what an encouragement your work has been to so many people!
    
    It reminds me of the days of the iron curtain, and even today in the middle east, when people would risk everything just so others could hear the good news, or get their own bible.
    
    I know it's daunting and exhausting, and that you've suffered personal hardships, but if we each have the faith of just one single mustard seed, that makes a lot of mustard seeds! :-D
    
    Thanks for all you do Meleti :-)

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-09 18:52:29

      I hope readers of my earlier post won't be discouraged or think I am dismissing Meleti's argument or its validity. I'm not. He did a fine job presenting that material. It's just important to understand the nature of the WT organization. It is a master of obfuscation. I suspect some R+F JW's actually WILL listen, but the organization itself (the GB and other high-up members) will not.
      
      It's true that if you judge WT by its own rules, and they failed to live up those rules, then yes, that would be embarrassing for them. But being embarrassed alone is not enough to prove they are scripturally wrong, other than showing they are hypocritical about following their own rules. Being hypocritical is not a nice thing to be, but it is not by far the worst thing someone could do.
      
      Wasting people's lives that were devoted to following a false religion is far worse. By rights, the whole GB ought to disfellowship themselves, just for the UN issue alone. They won't, of course, but they should.
      
      What is important for the readers of Beroean Pickets is to establish and explain the evidence of how and why WT fits the description of a false religion, such as their failure to be neutral. The GB will never listen, but hopefully some of your readers will, and that would be a good thing.

    • Reply by Karen on 2017-03-15 20:19:15

      Very true amoreomeara .... It is God who changes hearts, another warm thought to embrace us and take the pressure from our shoulders, we do not have to convince anyone other than ourselves in order to stay strong and content...
      
      I agree Robert, the WT and those who relish the power will not listen because they will not want to give up that power and prestige, but that's okay ..... What do those at the top say?
      
      "Wait on Jehovah"

  • Reply by Dajo on 2017-03-09 23:11:07

    Had a discussion with a JW earlier in the week specifically about the UN involvement. He was instantly dismissive. He came back and challenged me so I calmly explained some more.. the next day he's scratching his little old head!
    He's definitely wondering about some things now.. It's worth it.

Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2017-03-10 04:31:27

Your reply, Christian is wonderfully clear. Job held to his integrity, so did decent Kings in a corrupt Israel. Let us not be hypocrites. We all have the Bible, and with the help of like minded ones (here) we can search for the truth and find it and do whatever we can to please Jehovah and Jesus.
We must all be true to ourselves.
I wish it was that simple.

Comment by Yehorakam on 2017-03-10 12:33:19

First of all, Meleti, I hope I didn't sidetrack you in your series of articles by my comment. I acknowledged that it was the Witnesses who put the issue of neutrality as a identifying mark of true Christians. You do well to judge them by their own standards. That is only right. I apologize if my comment that 'it shouldn't be on the list' might have distracted you in any way. I was not objecting to your focus, but rather the Witnesses' list. Do not focus on those that won't be convinced. Keep up the good work, for there are already some that have woken up, and there will be more. The 1 in 1,000 is always worth it.

About doctrinal "truth," I feel the need to express my feelings. One comment said: "We cannot be certain of any doctrine. No one has a 100% correct understanding of scripture, and I doubt that it is possible." Another said: "We turn ourselves inside out trying to get the precise truth straight. I just don’t see that Jah or Jesus are so hung-up over it. Truth, it seems can be a variable and timing has much to do with it."

There are a few expressions there I wish to comment on. I have had contact with many Witnesses that have left the organization, if they have experienced deception or they discover lies, which indeed is very painful, the emotional reaction from many is that 'I'm not sure of anything anymore.' Some that have left aren't even sure of the existence of God after that. How deplorable. Satan would love no more than for us to be unsure about everything. It would be a destruction of our faith. Faith means we are sure about doctrine, or what is true! True, it's painful to be betrayed in belief, but let us turn that deception into motivation to determine from the scriptures what IS true doctrine, not for the sake of converting others, but for the sake of convincing ourselves. Truth from God, which includes doctrine is not variable. It is constant and always right there. It is what we think is truth that varies. Our understanding of truth is somewhat weak, and so we may have a hard time determining what is true doctrine. If we recognize we have blurred vision or changing beliefs, then modesty and humility would certainly motivate us to stay away from being extremely insistent on our views.

One statement was: "No one has a 100% correct understanding of scripture." I believe this is absolutely true. For that very reason, we should not beat others with a stick that has a Bible verse written on it. Nor should we judge or condemn others if they do not have the same beliefs as us. They could be wrong, but we could be wrong too. I have been wrong about a number of things, but as the Holy Spirit guides me, I am slowly corrected. Can we not say something peacefully, and then let the other person be guided and corrected by the Holy Spirit? So, we might express our beliefs in a respectful way, but there is no need to force our beliefs on others or declare others as "false" because they are not on the same page as us. Perhaps with time the Holy Spirit will put them on the same page. Maybe we'll be put on the same page as them. But, being that none of us have a 100% correct understanding of scripture, would that be a reason to think that truth cannot be found or determined? I would think that our Father and his Son would desire for us to imitate the angels and prophets who continued to examine the scriptures, peering into them. Why? Because of their love and desire to know truth. Indeed, none of us has "the truth." The claim by Witnesses to have the truth, only to change their doctrines convinces many that truth is variable or out of reach. The whole collection of truthS (plural), "that which is complete" has not yet arrived. In the meantime, Bible reading and the action of the Holy Spirit convinces us of individual "truths."

These individual truths are like pearls. Did you discover a few fake pearls in your collection? In an emotional response, would you throw out the whole collection thinking all of them were fake and think that true pearls don't exist? Or might it be better to examine them one by one, keeping the ones that are true, and discarding the ones that are fake? Do you find that a few pearls (truths) are genuine? Was it an in depth examination of the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that convinced you they are true? You have done well. Are you discouraged because the number of real truths in your collection now seems so small when you look at them? You say you don't have much on the table? So, you want more truths (pearls) in your collection? You say yes because you love pearls. Then keep digging and you will be given more. Think not that because you were given fake pearls, that you can't find real ones. If your collection is small, don't be discouraged and think that there aren't more to be had. Think not that because your collection is bigger than someone else's that they don't have God's spirit or approval. And that leads to one big point.

Jesus said that what should be foremost for us as Christians would be love of God, and love of neighbour, the two greatest commandments. Love of God definitely includes love for truth. God's word is truth and we should love it, study it, apply it. Our Father has put doctrine, or truth everywhere in his word. If we truly love our Father, then we will have an intense desire to discover more truth or doctrine in the scriptures. It will be our heart's desire for the Holy Spirit to teach us more truths. Ok, so now we've shown a love for God by searching for truth. We've been given some truths. How would that be if we then used those truths to assert we were approved by God, and everyone else not? We might have shown love for God at the outset, but now we are showing a lack of love to our neighbour. The two must go hand in hand. If one works against another, then it's just not right.

These days we here so often: "It doesn't matter so much what you believe. What's more important is showing love to your neighbour." I spoke with an inactive Witness the other day. He said basically the same thing: "I don't read the Bible anymore. I've seen that love for neighbour is what matters." In that case, they have put love of neighbour as the most important, above love for God. How far from the truth could you get. If the search for truth or true beliefs were not important, our Father would have not given his word, nor recorded the teachings his Son laid down. His Son would not have promised that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things. Our Father wants us to love his word. Love of God includes loving his word of truth.

So, in conclusion, my feelings are that Love for God, (which includes love for his word and love for truth) motivates us to search, study and put faith in what is true. It motivates us to exercise faith, to believe. Those beliefs are important. Love for God also motivates us to speak up for what the scriptures and the Holy Spirit has convinced us as true, in such a way that we don't show a lack of love for our neighbour. Love for our neighbour prevents us from passing judgment, feeling superior, acting with hypocrisy, etc. Our obedience to the first commandment should not negatively affect our obedience to the second commandment. Nor should our obedience to the second commandment be our prime focus, resulting in our love for God, his word and truth become not so important to us.

Much love,

• Reply by eve04 on 2017-03-11 22:20:39

  Beautifully said Yehorakam.

Comment by Identifying the True Religion – Neutrality | Beroean Pickets - JW.org Reviewer on 2017-03-13 07:20:09

[…] me the next article in this […]

Comment by Karen on 2017-03-15 20:13:53

Yehorakam thank you for such a fine response. After the ARC in 2015 my conscience would not allow me to remain apart of the WT organisation, like many others I went through a grieving process of mourning the loss of who I was, or what I believed, my strength to endure this life had been shattered into a million pieces. In time I could neither pray nor read the Bible because I no longer knew what truth was nor which bible, if any, held the 'truth' in fact if truth ever existed in the first place.

I have not even been able to read Meleti's site for many months, there are unopened articles still in my email box ... I simply felt too overwhelmed. Reading these articles for me was like re reading the WT lies to then unlearn them with something else. I could not bare to read yet another WT article, therefore stopped reading this site. I was on information overload. As a result I felt lost, alone and without direction. I was one of those who began to think it didn't really matter because I could no longer be sure of anything anymore... Your beautifully written words have given me some encouragement to become 'involved' once again and realise the importance of holding onto and working on that very personal relationship with our creator. No organisation can do that for us it is up to us as individuals to do the work. Really any relationship worth keeping is worth the work it takes to keep it!

Thank you Yehorakam and thank you Meleti for your tireless efforts and research.

Robert you sparked something inside me when you wrote about the difficulties in trying to convince others of the hypocrisy of the WT, that fits in with my dilemma of feeling as if I had to read WT articles again merely to unlearn them ...... I nor any of us have to convince anyone, because you are correct Robert, no witness will respond unless they too think apart from the organisation, we are viewed as apostates and therefore not to be engaged with. These articles are for those who wish to think for themselves and discover truth for themselves. To really be neutral is NOT to be apart of the WT, it is a load off my shoulders accepting that I don't have to convince anyone that their belief system is incorrect. I only need to convince myself and as a result guide my grand children towards maintaining a mind that is open to learn, question and investigate. Rather than judge, dictate or shun others who do not hold the same beliefs as they do.

Now I have some catching up to do and many unopened articles to read ...






Hello Colette it is always nice to read your comments xx

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-15 20:48:57

  Hello Karen,
  
  When I write things on this site, I hope people will find them of some value, but I had no idea anything I might say would affect people personally as they seem to have affected you. (I hope that's a good thing.)
  
  I have been away from the KH for a number of years, so I am evidently no longer viewed as part of their congregation. Sometimes JWs approach me and say hello, but they never ask how I am or why I am not at meetings. I am totally irrelevant to them. My wife passed away 5 years ago, and then I had a heart attack. No one from the KH bothered to ask about me.
  
  I have found the hard way that their claims of being a loving religion are as empty and fraudulent as their doctrines and religious theories. You made mention of the ARC. As I commented on elsewhere in this forum, the ARC showed WT up for what they are: Morally bankrupt and despicable. Their total distain for real moral cleanness and honor, much less the suffering of so many innocent victims, brands them as traitors against God of the worst sort imaginable. But then, that's just my opinion.
  
  It is true that you don't have any obligation to "prove" the WT is wrong, but in a sense you do need to prove it to yourself. Why? If you don't, there will always be some nagging doubt that maybe they really are the 'true' religion after all and your decision to leave was wrong. You might wonder if you made a mistake by leaving. You didn't.
  
  WT always holds this name-calling smear of "apostate" over people's heads like a Sword of Damocles (a phrase Meleti recently used so effectively). You are not an apostate. They are. If 'apostate' means being in conflict with the truth of the Bible, then WT as an organization has been 'apostate' from the very day Charles Taze Russell dreamed up the idea until this very moment.
  
  We must understand and absorb the truth of the matter. WT was built on a foundation of lies and blasphemy. What is worse, the GB, in demanding absolute and abject loyalty and obedience, by dictating policies such as the blood transfusion ban, by placing children at risk of harm from pedophiles while protecting and covering up those evil men, by fraudulently presuming to be the source of light from God and presuming that membership in their corporation is required for approval and life itself from God - by all these measures and so many more that time and space prevents listing them all, the GB has made itself a God, and all who remain in the WT have allowed themselves to be turned into idolaters - whether knowingly or not, they are still guilty of it.
  
  You need never doubt and never feel ashamed that you left the WT. That is your clue that you still have a functioning conscience. No doubt if you are being or have been approached by JWs wanting to know if you will change your mind and 'repent' of these so-called 'apostate' ideas, you would find the experience intimidating. You shouldn't let it be. For you to 'repent' from escaping the WT would be like a woman repenting because she escaped from a rapist. By no means! Thank God that you escaped! Seriously! You have nothing to be repentant about, except any regrets that it took as long as it did to figure it out and wake up.
  
  See the WT for what it is: a world empire of false religion. It is run by liars, who want to run (and ruin) people's lives and to seize as much power as possible. For them, Jesus' condemnation of the Pharisees is apropos: They are having their reward in full. Their house is abandoned to them.
  
  Take to heart the words of that Negro spiritual: Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty, free at last.
  
  Take care,
  
  Robert

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-16 08:02:01

    I believe that quote came from Dr. Martin Luther King.
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb_g4jkPqUw

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-16 22:12:19

      MLK quoted the spiritual, but yes, during the conclusion of his famous speech, he used those words.

  • Reply by Karen on 2017-03-16 21:13:33

    Thank you for your kind words and encouragement Robert. I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your wife and your subsequent heart attack life can be a challenge. I wish you good health and happiness....
    
    It is disgusting that no one from the so called 'identified by their love religion' failed to offer any of that abundant love at such a difficult time.. I agree with you totally they are 'morally bankrupt and despicable'....
    
    Thank you again for your encouraging and kindly response... take care ....

• Reply by Colette on 2017-03-16 02:02:19

  Hi Karen, nice to have you back, and thanks for YOUR comments.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-16 08:07:31

  Karen, so nice to have you back!