The Spirit Bears Witness - How?

Comment by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-30 10:14:06

Yes, we know what men say. What does Jesus say?

"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." (John 10:16)

If one group has a so-called heavenly hope and leaves this earth, while another group remains, are there not in fact two groups? To suggest otherwise would be a case of employing "trinity-like" arithmetic, except instead of being 1+1+1=1, it's 1+1=1. It doesn't add up either way.

If the sole determining factor about a person's destiny is their "hope", it must be recognized that hopes can be misguided. I knew a man in Michigan who claimed to be anointed. He was quite prominent in the WT organization for many years throughout the 20th century. He was so confident about his own "hope" that he even counseled other people about this. One person asked him how you would know if you were anointed, and his reply was, "if you have to ask someone, then you're not". He added that he himself was so certain, he didn't need to ask anyone for confirmation of this. Yet, a few years before he died at a very old age, he said he was wrong all along, and never was anointed. This man spent his entire life convinced (and convincing others) of his "heavenly hope", only to conclude at the last year of his 90-year life that he was wrong.

It is things like this that makes me conclude that people who profess a heavenly hope are mistaken, or doctrinally confused, or perhaps intentionally misleading others to gain prominence.

Why would Jesus say we were "one flock" and then establish an arrangement that would constitute TWO flocks? Is that something a "great teacher" would do?

Let us take Jesus at his word. What would that mean for us?

1. Because there is only one flock, all Christians are adopted as God's children. There is no division between us.

2. There is no reason to disobey Christ's command. He said to keep DOING this, not keep OBSERVING this. He gave this command to his disciples. All of them. There is no grounds for establishing a two-class system to exclude one group, when there is utterly no scriptural justification for it.

What about all the verses that might seem to imply two groups or two classes? WT continually focuses on this, but what is the truth? It is a deep subject, but once we come to understand that no one is going to heaven, everything makes sense.

We know that some Christian will be chosen to be kings on the earth. Every last single Christian cannot be a king, because there must be someone for the kings to rule over. But, being a king is a temporary job that will only last 1,000 years. During that time, the human kings and the human subjects will work together, side by side. When it's over, those kings will have completed their assignments and will return to the general population, and God will be all things to everyone.

So, there is no reason for persons destined to be kings, and everyone else, to be divided from each other. We are still all God's children, and all fall under the command to "keep doing this".

There is one other thing to consider. If "anointing" is something that is 'spiritually manifested' as a way to convey that a person has been chosen for a role as a future king, would God anoint people when they are part of an organization that teaches falsehoods about Him? Would God anoint people so that they would then proceed to do the bidding of mere men of the GB that misrepresent Him?. Can we really trust that anyone claiming to be anointed is really what they say? For instance, would God anoint people to be false prophets, or to align themselves with the UN or other such groups, or to help shield child abusers? Put directly, would God anoint people to be His enemies? To me, there is no convincing reason that anyone whatsoever associated with WT is truly anointed.

It is reasonable to conclude that the claims of the GB to be anointed are false, whether due to being mistaken or due to intentional misrepresentation. Thus, if the GB is not truly anointed, and they have no status from a purported heavenly hope, and if by their own admission they have not yet been appointed over the "domestics", then there is no reason to follow them. There is certainly no reason to abide by their direction to 'keep observing' instead of "keep doing".

On another post, someone said 'the Memorial is an annual ritual in which JWs reject the body and blood of Christ'. That observation is stunning, blunt, and absolutely correct.

We ought to ponder that.

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-31 23:15:56

  After rereading my words above, I realize there is no reason to keep secret the identity of the man I mentioned above (now deceased) who thought he was anointed and then changed his mind. He was Clayton Ball, who lived in Sterling Heights, Michigan.

  • Reply by katrina on 2017-04-01 06:29:55

    This very wrong teaching of the GB was what convinced me it was not the truth God's org as they claim. Its actually a satanic teaching.Join the discussion

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-04-01 08:10:44

      I would have to agree that the "heavenly hope", as held out by many religions in one form or another, is a teaching of demons.
      
      We need only look at what the serpent said to Eve: 'you will be immortal and have characteristics like God has'. How is that any different that having one's 'soul' taken to heaven, or becoming another 'angel', or being resurrected to supposedly rule with Christ in heaven in a spiritual temple, or being transported to Nirvana? They are all sides of the same coin, just dressed up a little differently.
      
      Our Father said man and the earth were very good, that He made the earth for man but reserved heaven for himself, and that people would reside on earth forever. Plus, the bible never says anywhere, in plain language, that "when good Christians die, they will be resurrected as angel-like spirits to live in the presence of God in heaven".
      
      Why won't people believe Him and take Him at His word?

Comment by kyaecker on 2017-03-30 12:27:20

Great thoughts to ponder.
Don't know if I would have the courage to partake at the hall though. People who have known you for years suddenly would look at you very differently. Most likley putting you down among other members. I've heard that before about other partakers over the years. Can you imagine the gossip if all the doubters in the congregations began partaking. It would be behavior unbecoming a Witness.

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-30 12:48:51

  If we would not partake of communion in a Catholic church or any other one, presumably on the grounds that they teach false doctrines, how is a KH any different? WT is teaching false doctrines too.
  
  Would Jews desire to observe their Passover at the nearest encampment of idolatrous Baal worshipers, just to "fit in"?
  
  Would first century Christians observe the remembrance of the last supper in the temple of Artimus of the Ephesians, because that is where everyone else in the neighborhood was going?
  
  If not, why should anyone feel compelled to remember Christ's death amongst people who have essentially rejected him, and his body and blood, and have minimized and trivialized his role as Mediator and Savior, in exchange for the idolatrous worship of seven men in Brooklyn?
  
  We ought to worry less about behavior unbecoming a Witness, and more about "Witness" behavior that is unbecoming a Christian.

Comment by simplyme on 2017-03-30 15:52:10

Thank you again for such a fine article and I sure hope you're recovering well.

These days I read different passages in the Bible such as Romans chapter 8 and I think "why didn't I see that earlier?".

Now we look back and see just how much our thinking was controlled. We very rarely if ever read whole passages and discussed them, it was usually just a few verses here tied in with a few verses there.

For me, being raised as one of the "great crowd", my hope was always living forever on the paradise earth. I had no interest in Heaven. My attitude to those who had this hope was "good for you, go for it, but that's not for me".

Personally the memorial celebration was the most special day of the year. Even though I didn't partake I knew that Jesus' ransom sacrifice was what made my hope real and possible.

Now I look back and ask myself even though I showed the greatest respect for this occasion but didn't partake, will Jehovah hold that against me? I don't think so because it was done in ignorance.

Now that I know better, I know I should partake, but I will do this privately or with a small group.

I do have empathy for my "brothers and sisters" who don't have much to do with me anymore even though I just faded away. They are in the same mind control I was in and even if they are seeing a few things and starting to wake up, they are still in captivity.

The emotional bondage is crippling and paralyzing. Hopefully in time Jehovah will release them too, but maybe that depends on their motives, desire and situation

Comment by Jerome on 2017-03-30 17:14:04

Thank you Meleti for this. I hope you are recovering well from your surgery. This is a deeply disturbing subject for me. I see no scriptural support for two groups of Christians today. I am certain that the other sheep Jesus spoke about were the Gentiles. Hence we no longer speak in terms of nationality. We are all brothers in Christ. However, having been baptized long after this teaching became prominently taught, my mind has always been conditioned towards earthly life. I can completely identify with simplyme and kyaeker that to partake at this point in the kingdom hall would cause a tremendous amount of trouble for me and my family. To partake privately at home I would have to of course explain to my wife what I am doing. How would she take it? What about the rest of my family? Yet at the same time, I am troubled by what is obviously the presence of fear of man in my heart. I feel like such an unfaithful person, not willing to pick up my torture stake and follow my Lord. I will read Romans chapter 8 carefully and pray intensely.
Jerome

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-30 21:20:37

  We are not holding our online memorial at the same time and day as Jehovah's Witnesses. Therefore, you might be able to join with us if you wish. Let me know.

  • Reply by PoetryofProvidence on 2017-03-31 00:22:27

    humm , I would like to know when you are doing that , yes yes , could you email me either from the DTT site or FB email or the one you have one file here .

  • Reply by Jerome on 2017-03-31 15:06:18

    Yes. I would be interested

  • Reply by Karen on 2017-03-31 20:18:28

    Thank you Meleti for another fine article, how will you be holding the memorial on line?

  • Reply by Lois on 2017-03-31 21:13:58

    Hi Meleti, thanks for this article. The online memorial sounds very interesting! If possible I would like to find out how to join.

  • Reply by Dajo on 2017-04-02 06:07:32

    Thanks.

  • Reply by wish4truth2 on 2017-04-02 18:57:48

    hi Meleti, we would (family of 3) love to be there too. could we please join?

  • Reply by SeasonsOfGrace on 2017-04-02 19:27:23

    I'd be interested also.
    Thanks!

Comment by John S on 2017-03-30 17:20:16

I agree with the essay, Meleti; "Amen!"

We don't need ithers to tell us either whether we are spirit-adopted/born again. I agree with the comment of anyone who has been born again, JW or not, and I've met many, many non-JW's that are .

They simply believe the holy spirit dwells inside them, just as I do, and are in a personal relationship with the Son and the Father.

The spirit makes them have this hope, and it is what makes them cry out, "Abba!".

Jesus said being born of the spirit is like the wind. No one knows where it is, and it's going and coming. Invisible, capricious, independent, unfathomable. Mostly...very powerful, too.

The spirit directs, counsels, teaches, comforts, reveals. It is the best friend an anointed person has, like a guardian angel, and may even have angels around us ministering, who knows?

Paul and Christ taught the Spirit has personality, and since I have had that blessing these 10 years, I have even seen humor, and playfulness, in the way He does things for me, though I won't go into that, it's personal.

But it is a very real situation, and though others may scoff, I know the truth, and encourage all and any here, to not be hesitant to receive it, as Christ offers it freely, and as Meleti, and Robert, too , believed, is THE hope for Christians.

Now as far as they, the Sons of the Kingdom only ruling for the 1000 years? I say no, it only states they do rule first then.

Rev. 21,22 show the New Jerusalem stones are the anointed brothers of Christ. The City is the anointed Kings/Priests for the human race eternally.

As I stated before, we all seem to be struggling over a concept that 'perfect ' people in Paradise will never need any help or protection, or governance because they never make mistakes, or sin . Wrong, wrong, so wrong....

Adam, Eve, Satan, and the demons...were all perfect once.

Revelation says a monthly, service the city performs is a cleaning up of our bodies by eating the fruit of the trees of life, and drinking of the water issuing forth from the throne. This nourishment restores life and health.

The tree of life in Eden did the same, that is why they were run out and angels were posted to keep them away from its fruit.

The Kingdom government is eternal. (Dan.2:44)

We know rebels and evildoers will raise up from time to time eternally, as that is what real free-will is. The privilege of having a choice.

We also, (humanity) are not alone in this universe. Other races and creatures live here, and I believe the 24 elders of Revelation symbolize kings or governing administrations of different races in the universe; heaven. These are governances that are loyal to God and Christ, but there are many that are not, as Paul explained as dark, evil rulerships in the heavenly places.(Eph. 6:12)

Angels themselves , we know are seraphs, cherubs, living creatures, archangels, strong angels, and who knows what else?

Some 'sons of God' came to earth pre-flood, and had DNA compatible to ours.

Some are demons, able to inhabit people, a 1000 of them was inferred in the naked tomb dweller who had super strength.

There is so much we don't yet know, so it does well not to think we are an authority on anything like this; yet we have little tastes given us, and we can at least ponder...

But, again, I recommend reading John's gospel, to begin to understand why we all need to get on the same page as Christ wants us to obey one shepherd; Him. (John 10)

John's gospel is pure water that will open one's heart and mind to the matter Meleti discussed above.

Comment by Candace on 2017-03-30 21:09:08

The John 10:16 scripture about other sheep is such a troublesome one because JW insists that the other sheep are those who Jesus extends the invitation to become his followers. They are one flock under his care as a whole but not the same class of sheep or he wouldn't have called them 'other'. And in the end if we 'listen to his voice' we will be brought together anyway. What is 1000 or how many actual years it is compared to eternity?
Then of course when we try to tie this in with scriptures like Romans 8:16 it literally doesn't make sense unless you also go with the thought that those scriptures are for the anointed primarily, who are totally positive about being anointed because it is an unmistakable strong feeling like I have been told.
So I feel like this whole mess is backed up by a mix of scriptures and interpretive reasoning. And its stressing me out so much because trying to discuss this is like talking to a blank wall! ~~
I don't drink alcohol but I will have to if I like to partake in private before the memorial. Hopefully I won't be showing up with a red face.

• Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-03-30 23:22:17

  Hello Candace,
  
  Your intuition about this is serving you well. The scriptures are not a mess. It is the doctrines and interpretations of men that are causing the problem.
  
  1. Regarding the other sheep, Jesus does in fact extend the invitation to them to become his followers. They are the Gentiles, a group that the Jews always treated as "others". That's why Jesus used the word "other" to describe them, not because they have a different destiny than the "non-other" group (if you will allow such an awkward term).
  
  2. As for Romans, consider the context: "12 So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live in accord with the flesh; 13 for if you live in accord with the flesh you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, you will live. 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children."
  
  This does not describe "three" classes, as if those were (1) those living according to the flesh who will die; (2) those led by God's spirit as God's sons; and (3) the other sheep who possess some undetermined but inferior status. "Class 3" is not supported by the scriptures.
  
  Receiving a spirit of adoption as sons does not necessarily mean being anointed for the purpose of serving at a future date as a king during the 1000 year reign. It just means being accepted as one of God's children.
  
  I believe those who have assumed in the past that the spirit was telling them they were anointed and destined for heaven have misunderstood this, and actually were sensing that they had been adopted as God's children.
  
  As many may know, I don't believe anyone goes to heaven. To me, John 10:16 and Romans 8:16 make complete sense, and are easily reconciled, when we accept that mankind has only one destiny, and that is on earth.

  • Reply by kyaecker on 2017-03-31 01:20:51

    Robert.
    Your last paragraph about not going to heaven intrigued me. Can you please elaborate on this more? I have been struggling in my reconciliation of which destiny heaven or earth and have not seen much on this topic, but from what is written in the Bible, earthly life seems to be what is referenced not heaven for all. Thank you!

    • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-04-01 09:46:11

      Hello kyaecker,
      
      A full accounting about why we don't go to heaven would be lengthy. I am hopeful that Meleti is going to cover this in an article soon, and that would be a better venue for me to discuss it than here, which is supposed to be about the spirit, the lord's evening meal, etc.
      
      If you like, you can ask Meliti to forward your email address to me and I can send you a document I have that discusses this in more detail.
      
      Robert

Comment by SeasonsOfGrace on 2017-03-31 05:14:24

Hi..
I believe the 'ONE HOPE of our calling' (Ephesians 4:4) has nothing to do with a 'destination'. Leave it to the Watchtower to confuse us all. I took the advice to read through the book of John. I'm starting to see 'the hope' is the 'right to become a child of God'. (John 1:12)
Also, one of the perks of becoming a child of God is the hope of everlasting life.

"Yet to ALL who did receive him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life." John 6:47

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." John 6:54

It seems active JWs and ExJWs struggle with this hope and you will find every argument under the sun to support both 'destination views'.

If we take the location out of the equation I think the message becomes really very simple.

Do you want to be a child of God?
Do you want to inherit everlasting life?

Whatever 'we become' and wherever we 'end up' is not something we can fully understand. Yet.

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Cor 2:9

• Reply by Maria on 2017-03-31 06:38:34

  Hi SeasonsOfGrace,
  
  As my husband and I woke up, we said to each other : Our Heavenly Father and His Son, our Lord showed their love for us in a way, nobody else could ever copy. We in return say yes please can we be your adopted son and daughter.
  Those Two are the ones we should follow, wherever they want us to be.
  They will have the best in store for us, not to worry. They will forfil our dreams in the most gorgeous ways. As your last verse 1 Cor. 2:9 states.
  And let nobody or anything come between you and Them.
  Love to all

  • Reply by SeasonsOfGrace on 2017-03-31 07:15:50

    Thank-you! Yes, I agree... my hope is to be wherever He is. I just thought if we could look beyond the destination, that whatever it is, it will be beyond our 'wildest dreams'. Ive seen the 'calling' to become a Child of God in a 'new light'. (No Watchtower pun intended) :)
    The important thing is to just have faith. Believe that we all are invited to become a child of God and follow through by actions.
    Thanks Willy.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-03-31 08:27:24

      I agree, SeasonsOfGrace. There is a case to be made for life in heaven and a case to be made for life on earth. I think the truth lies somewhere in between. However, this is a bigger issue for some than it should be. Perhaps due to natural human longing for one particular reward. However, we should not worry about it since that is up to God.
      
      Nevertheless, I think the topic deserves exploration as long as we understand that we cannot--I believe--speak definitively on the subject.

      • Reply by SeasonsOfGrace on 2017-03-31 09:32:35

        Thanks Meleti.
        I completely agree with all the above. The important thing for myself was not trying to figure out the details (because I too see both views) and rest my confidence on faith. Whatever God wants, I want! :)

      • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-04-02 08:11:10

        post deleted

        • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-04-02 11:16:16

          Hi Robert-6512,
          
          Your comment came across as something of an attack on character. I'm not saying you meant it that way, but that is how it was perceived.
          
          You will find our commenting guidelines here: http://beroeans.net/frequently-asked-questions/
          
          I could've left your comment up, and gone down it point by point listing the reasons I disagree. However it would be unfair to do so publicly, and there's always the risk of offending someone unnecessarily. Additionally, I have attempted to do this in the past, only to find that in most cases it does not end well and tends to adversely affect the atmosphere of the forum. (I'm not suggesting that such would have been the case here. Frankly, since I'm recovering from surgery, I also lack the time and energy to engage properly in such an analysis.)
          
          In principle – again not being specific here – we want to avoid comments which are argumentative or unnecessarily provocative. We also want to avoid assuming that the other person has a particular agenda or motivation. We stick with the facts.
          
          If someone disagrees with our point of view, and we feel that the subject can and needs to be resolved by debate, then we should use www.discussthetruth.com to that end.
          
          The purpose of the commenting feature on this site is to add to the discussion at hand; to share additional research; yes, and even to correct wrong thinking on my part. However, if simply have a different point of view, or our own personal interpretation on a Bible matter, we should not consider the commenting feature as a means to publish our own articles. Instead, we should set up our own website, publish the article, and then use the commenting feature to set up a link to that website article page with a brief explanation of what the article's premise is.

          • Reply by Robert-6512 on 2017-04-02 11:31:15

            Meleti,
            
            I didn't just show up on your forum last week. Our correspondence goes back several years, as you well know. You should have consulted me privately before taking this needless and regrettable action. I don't approve of what you have done, nor do I agree with your reasons for doing so.

            • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-04-02 11:44:24

              Robert-6512, you have just made my point for me. I do not wish to offend you, nor should we engage in a public polemic. If you wish to know the grounds on which my statement rests, I'd be willing to take the time to go through our lengthy comment over the next few days in a private e-mail exchange. Nevertheless, if you still wish to leave, then fair well my brother. No hard feelings.

• Reply by John S on 2017-04-08 09:13:24

  Well said, SOG.
  
  It is stated in Revelation, the Kingdom sons will return to earth, and rule for mankind's benefit. (R21,22) So, all them will return to enjoy earth again, and be with relatives, friends, and loved ones too.
  
  After Jesus was resurrected, he visited his followers for 40 days, encouraging, teaching, eating, etc.

Comment by kingdom.seeker on 2017-03-31 13:00:31

Thanks Meleti
Totally agreed
KS

Comment by John S on 2017-04-01 08:39:40

I would like to remind all who are enjoying the truths the brothers and sister writers here are researching and writing for our benefit...that 'getting out' of the Org. , or partaking or not at the Hall...and they are feeling pressure from their consciences,....

That's good. This means you are taking to heart Jesus' teachings, and his positive control of the outpouring of the truth in the last days via the holy spirit.

Be assured, "I am with you all the days, until the conclusion of the system of things"...

and

"Where two or three are gathered together in my name....there I am, in their midst."

But...there is no great hurry! Relax.

Christ does not pressure you to make a decision immediately, but the right time will come for you, and any or all the Witnesses now in, many very zealous for Bible truth.

This brother, too, is another one of many, who is coming to the light of the word of Christ, whom Father Jah has given the reins to from the beginning, actually, to direct people to become children of God. And we appreciate this well-put-together site, where water of life is being revealed; Christ's words. (John 4) Thank you all writers here! Wonderful!

Be aware, Revelation and Daniel both tell of a revealing of Bible truths at the end of the age, and we, JW's, particularly, now, seem to be awakening to some more important ones, at this hour,...which is a proof of the fact we are near the end.


Revelation talks about a huge miracle at the end; "My Two Witnesses" (R.11)

This is a period of world-wide witnessing that resembles the 10 Plagues of Egypt witness, and it will be a no-holds-barred showdown between the last world-power, the 8th king-beast and Christianity.

Many truths about Father Jah, Christ, the anointing, and all major teachings, (Trinity, Hellfire, soul) will no doubt be displayed along with the witness of the power of the holy spirit-miracles, I believe. This will help millions become Christians...a veritable 'harvest' of new Christians will no doubt be the result, so much so, that Satan will begin to try to eliminate Christianity altogether by death and torture, intimidation...all. Just as he did in the 1st century. This world-witness will change EVERYTHING. This period JW's tried to capture in the minds of the public as theirs alone , being fulfilled by their witnessing. But, that is a lie, as you know, the WT denies Christ's teachings, purposely, and with evil intention. They are not even a little part of the fulfillment of the Two Witness prophecy, imo.

I feel this time may be very near. I also believe those who are anointed (in and out of WT churches) will have the guts to stand up and preach despite world-bans against 'preaching', especially Christianity, with its 'condemnatory' view...one the world even now considers 'unloving'...."unwilling to accept homosexuality"...etc.

But, no worry, plenty of time still to do as you all are doing; breaking out old men's traditions to follow the Master. (John 10)

Still a lot has to happen.

And because I go to a different church every Sunday, and teach as opportunities present, I see many are full of the spirit, and love, and are not part of 'Babylon the Great' (aka "False Religion", according to WT)...but are exercising their faith, fulfilling their Christian duty to witness to Christ and God, and be better examples themselves. Many are engaging more in charitable works, going out to third world countries, (El Salvador) and building public water facilities for better health and life, as one group did from a Presbyterian church I attended this last Sunday....

If I had never gotten away from WT years ago, and started attending different churches 10 years ago, I would have never learned the wisdom LOVE brings to your mind . As JW's we were all taught to condemn everything church members did as inconsequential, or valueless, but only our ministry door-to-door as important to 'Jehovah', and .....recognizing 'God's Channel'...the FDS...as the "Christ of Earth" to be 'obedient to'...and serve, really.

This great lie WT has entrenched in our minds.....we must get out of our houses, and Kingdom Halls, and GET OUT THERE and witness what REALLY is going on in Christianity, I feel, before we can develop a real 'love for neighbor', and see the real good being performed by billions, of people in all religions, actually. Or...not even in a church at all.

Remember Romans, where Paul said people would perform works of the Law without being Jewish, and these were ones who demonstrated the Law was written on their hearts, and their consciences were bearing witness with holy spirit ....

Even this has the most merit to Christ, doesn't it? (John 5:28,29...Rev. 20 Resurrection at the last day) Jesus will judge according to what's in the heart, at the end. regardless of religious affiliation.


Well, this is a lot of wording, but it all renders down to Jesus' teaching; "all my brothers will be recognized by the love they have for one another"...and he means all other people, too, not just other Christians. (Love your neighbor as yourself)

Hope these thoughts will comfort those feeling any kind of worry about where they are sitting on any given Sunday....

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-04-01 22:11:34

  I do not wish to discourage comments of any reasonable length, Jonh S, but remember that that commenting feature are intended to reference the topic at hand, not as an alternative to articles. You are free to write articles on your own site, and if you like, even include a link in your comment on this site to them. That way when you engage in speculation, any discussion challenging your findings will ensue on your own site and not here.

  • Reply by John S on 2017-04-08 09:09:26

    Thank you Meleti,
    
    sonsofkingdom.website

• Reply by Dajo on 2017-04-02 05:53:07

  Hello john S,
  you started your comment stating "I would like to remind...".
  Toward the end of your comment you said "Well, this is a lot of wording..".
  Your comment didn't seem to be a comment. (I would like to add more, however I am working on self control).
  I found it to be trite and demeaning. It sort of had an insincere tone compared to what I'm used to reading here.
  Yes, we are all people and we all get out there, as you say.
  You have had a lot of experience. So has Meleti. Please remember, john S, people FORGET what we SAY. FORGET what we DO. But REMEMBER how we make them FEEL.
  Kindness, David

  • Reply by John S on 2017-04-08 09:08:28

    Thank you Dajo
    
    I am sorry to have demeaned some here. I am a large-hearted man, but was given a large mouth, too. Like you, I need to work on self control.
    
    As a Witness all my life until 52 years old, I was 'forbidden' to attend churches, but I started going anyway, just to see what the situation really was in them. I did this for two years as a JW. Elders called me into a committee meeting to ask me if it was true, and I admitted I was examining the state, to see for myself, and what I had seen was sincerity, effort, and study to ascertain what is acceptable to God.
    
    They reprimanded me, but never took judicial action. I didn't say I would stop visiting, but there observing only, not wishing to join.
    
    I know of no other Witnesses at that time doing what I was doing, and saw fear preventing them from going forth to see what is what.
    
    Fear is a manslayer, and perfect fear throws love outside, the scriptures say. It will take courage and prayer for any here to overcome fear of WT reprisal from stopping worship with spirit and truth.
    
    Sacrifices will have to be made, and one will have to count the cost of loss of relatives, and friends, even marriage mates (my case), if you plan to follow Jesus.
    
    But, if you make that jump, you will find there are many, now, who have done it, and will become new brothers, sisters, mothers, and you will take courage from this.
    
    You will also have a clean conscience, and firm faith, because to see the truth, about things like Meleti is saying; 'Other sheep', for instance, and the necessity of becoming sons of the kingdom...not JW 'bystanders' , living in the shadow of a group of men who are pulling the wool over the eyes of millions of scripturally unaware and sincere searchers for God's truth and spirit.
    
    I will post some articles on this site; 'sonsofkingdom.website', if anyone wishes to read any of my thoughts....along with other writers there.
    
    I am no 'new prophet', and do not want anyone to follow me, only Christ.

    • Reply by Dajo on 2017-04-14 19:36:09

      Hello John
      thanks for that, I've enjoyed reading your comments in Tadua's reviews. So much to be encouraged by both here and discussthetruth.com

Comment by Amitafal on 2017-04-01 15:36:23

Thanks Meleti for another thought provoking article. Sorry hadn't realised you were unwell. Hoping you are recovering well.

I do feel the JW doctrines have confused the message in the Bible. I have read several passages in the book of John and am still researching them. I have always believed in everlasting life on earth, but certain verses in the book of John make me wonder about a Heavenly hope and who if any is that for. John 12:26, 13:36, 14:2-4 all seem to say that Jesus told his faithful followers that they would eventually follow him - follow him to where he would be.

Reading Luke 22:14-20, & 28-30 after reading your post made me wonder as Jesus was talking to those who stuck with him in his trials, if he was asking them and them only to keep partaking of the emblems and wine? A bit like a father who knew he was dying might ask his children to keep remembering him and maybe do something specific / commemorate in a certain way. And when his children died maybe that would be the end of them remembering him - unless they instructed their children (his grandchildren) to do the same ? I am not trying to be awkward here, but want to be sure of what I believe especially after years of indoctrination by men - I don't just want to follow others for the sake of it.

As I said, I am still researching this as not convinced. Any thoughts on those verses in the gospel of John will be welcome.

• Reply by Vox Ratio on 2017-04-01 21:37:50

  Hi Amitafal,
  
  You raise an excellent question when considering who the intended subjects of Christ's commemorative words were. For me, it was also important to come to terms with whether Jesus was inaugurating a practice that only his direct listeners should preserve, or rather if it was a custom that ought to properly be expanded to include others. If I may, I'd like to share with you what helped me to realise that the answer is actually very simple.
  
  Firstly, consider that Christ's instruction to eat, drink, and remember his death represented a "command" to those that were present with him (Mat. 26:26ff; Luk. 22:19)
  
  Secondly, consider that Christ's departing instruction to teach others to teach all of his "commands" likewise represented a "command" to those present with him (Mat. 28:20). However, this final command was reflexive upon his disciples as well as those who would later listen to them.
  
  Thus, the command to eat, drink, and remember the Lord’s death is a command that also must be commanded of others. These instructions all fold neatly into Jesus final command until he returns.

  • Reply by Amitafal on 2017-04-02 09:49:53

    Thank you Vox Ratio
    I too always come back to the scriptures you mention and then ask if I should be partaking. I suppose years of not doing so is deeply ingrained in me and I struggle to come to terms with it all.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2017-04-01 22:24:46

  Jesus was indeed referring to those who stuck with him in his trials, Amitafal. However, Paul's words to the Corinthians show that they applied beyond that tiny group. Indeed, all true followers of Christ are those who stick with him in his trials. For instance:
  
  “. . .Then he went on to say to all: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake day after day and follow me continually.” (Lu 9:23)
  
  Witnesses have turned the act of partaking into some sort of "ticket to heaven", a validation of the upward calling, a means of separating the two hopes. Partaking is simply a symbol of our recognition that salvation comes through the blood and flesh of christ and it is also a simply act of obedience, a way of declaring to the world who we are. We are Christians!

  • Reply by Amitafal on 2017-04-02 10:02:39

    Thanks Meleti
    I agree that the Witnesses have turned it into a ritualistic event with 2 classes and 2 hopes. As I said before, years of following them and their ways has left me re-examining the scriptures and questioning my beliefs. I do see what you are saying about partaking, it just doesn't feel right at the moment . Romans 10:9 keeps coming back to me and yes I agree with 1 Corinthians11. I need to break away from their indoctrinations, bearing in mind I have only just stopped going to meetings. Bit more time is needed for me I think.