This member came up with some excellent reasoning showing the flaw in this common statement often made by those trying to dissuade sincere Christians from obeying Jesus' instructions on partaking. (Note: While the premise for the above statement is flawed from the get-go, it can be helpful to accept an opponent's premise as valid, and then take it to its logical conclusion to see if it holds water.)
Moses got a direct call from God. Nothing could be clearer. He heard God's voice directly, recognized who was calling, and got the message of his appointment. But what was his reaction? He displayed doubt. He told God about his unqualified status, his impediment. He asked God to send someone else. He asked for signs, which God gave him. When he brought up the issue of his speech defect, it seems God got a little angry, telling him he is the one who made the dumb, the speechless, the blind, then He assured Moses, "I will be with you".
Did Moses self-doubt disqualify him?
Gideon, who served in collaboration with Judge Deborah, was sent by God. Yet, he asked for a sign. When told that he would be the one to deliver Israel, Gideon modestly spoke of his own insignificance. (Judges 6:11-22) At another occasion, to confirm God was with him, he asked for a sign and then another (the reverse) as proof. Did his doubts disqualify him?
Jeremiah, when appointed by God, replied, "I am but a boy". Did this self-doubt disqualify him?
Samuel was called by God. He did not know who was calling him. It took Eli to discern, after three such incidents, that it was God calling to Samuel for an assignment. An unfaithful high priest helping one called by God. Did that disqualify him?
Isn't that a nice bit of scriptural reasoning? So even if we accept the premise of a special individual calling—which I know most of us, including this contributing member, do not—we still have to acknowledge that self-doubt is not a reason not to partake.
Now to examine the premise for that Kingdom hall speaker's line of reasoning. It comes from an eisegetical reading of Romans 8:16:
"The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children."
Rutherford came up with the "Other Sheep" doctrine in 1934[i] using the now-disavowed antitypical application of the Israelite cities of refuge.[ii] At some point, in search of scriptural support, the Organization settled on Romans 8:16. They needed a scripture that seemed to support their view that only a tiny remnant should partake, and this is the best they could come up with. Of course, reading the entire chapter is something they avoid, for fear that the Bible might interpret itself in a way contrary to the interpretation of men.
Romans chapter 8 speaks of two classes of Christian, to be sure, but not of two classes of approved Christian. (I can call myself a Christian, but that doesn't mean Christ thinks of me as one of his own.) It does not speak of some who are anointed and approved by God and others who, while also approved by God, are not anointed with spirit. What it speaks of are Christians who are fooling themselves by thinking they are approved while living in accordance with the flesh and its desires. The flesh leads to death, while the spirit leads to life.
“For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace…” (Romans 8:6)
No special midnight calling here! If we set our mind on the spirit, we have peace with God and life. If we set our mind on the flesh, we have only death in view. If we have the spirit, we are God’s children—end of story.
“For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons.” (Romans 8:14)
If the Bible were speaking about a personal calling at Romans 8:16, then that verse should read:
“The spirit will bear witness with your spirit that you are one of God’s children.”
Or if in the past tense:
“The spirit has borne witness with your spirit that you are one of God’s children.”
We're talking about a single event, a unique call by God to the individual.
Paul's words speak of another reality, a calling to be sure, but not from one approved group of Christian into another approved group.
He speaks collectively and in the present tense. He is telling all Christians who are led by God's spirit, not the flesh, that they are already God’s children. No one reading that would understand he’s speaking to spirit-led Christians (Christians who have rejected the sinful flesh) and telling them that some of them are going to get or have already gotten a special calling from God while others have not received such a calling. He speaks in the present tense saying essentially, “If you have the spirit and are not fleshly, then you already know you are a child of God. God’s spirit, that dwells in you, makes you aware of this fact."
It is a state of being that all Christians share.
There is nothing to indicate that those words have changed their meaning nor their application with the passage of time.
___________________________________________________________
[i] See two-part article series “His Kindness” in August 1 and 15, 1934 The Watchtower.
[ii] See box “Lessons or Antitypes?” on page 10 of the November, 2017 The Watchtower – Study Edition
Archived Comments
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Comment by Vox Ratio on 2018-04-11 09:20:35
Hi Meleti,
Very nicely reasoned by this forum member.
Another example that comes to mind is when one is made to feel that they're not good enough to warrant God's choosing or that they don't have an adequate record of faithfulness to back it up. For instance, because of an acute awareness of their own sinfulness, some feel that they could not possibly work alongside Christ. This seems to be how Peter once felt as well (Luk. 5:8). But Jesus scuttled any unease over personal unworthiness with two simple words. His reply: "Fear not..." (Luk. 5:10b).
Did Peter feel good enough? Did he have an adequate record of faithfulness?
Of course, now that the word is well and truly out, Christ ensured that any who received him had the right to become a child of God (Joh. 1:12); and this being not just a gift for past times, since all who are led by God's spirit are also his children (Rom. 8:14).
As a fisher of men, Peter bagged a large kingdom haul for Christ during his life. With the Lord's help, hopefully we'll get to bag a few more Kingdom Halls during ours.
Fear not indeed.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-04-11 09:26:03
Well put, Vox.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-12 04:34:03
Last two sentences: very clever, Vox :-))
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-13 16:11:07
I will never understand the rationale behind the voting decisions on this forum. For a time, I had 3 "likes" to my one-line comment above, and now it's down to 1. How much controversy can there be for me to note that Vox had a clever conclusion to his post? But Meleti's short post below, which differs little in substance in saying Vox did a nice job, gets 6 votes. Huh?
I am too young (65) to understand this. Unless someone is out there with a vendetta or something, and just wishes to irritate me or hurt my feelings by downgrading any positive reactions to what I say, then none of this makes any sense; not to me, anyway.
I will repeat what I have said other times before. If you have some objection to what I, or anyone else has to say, don't be a "drive-by voter". Even if it's only one sentence, post that one sentence and explain yourself. How do I know? Maybe you actually have a good point and I'm in the wrong, but I will never know if you don't say something.
Voting someone down without any context is not constructive criticism. It's just disparagement.Reply by Hermanos de cristo on 2018-04-15 06:55:35
te doy mi like para que no te enojes.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-15 11:53:01
I am not mad, I am just confused.
Reply by Devora on 2018-04-15 14:49:23
Robert,I'd rather you voice yourself'as you are',than in last yr's past..where(I could tell)you were terribly hurting,(and as a sad consequence it happens, to most of us),partly-shut down and away..hurting from your Bereavement,tragic Loss..Eric/Meleti,too. I personally rejoice in your'returning'more alive and obviously(each)at a higher level..You(and all here)have been unmeasurably-good for the rest of us,in your strengths! Until our relief-from heaven...we suffer the deaths of our Beloved ones;it is real courage-to get back up;into the fray and continue to defend and support our faith. & I'd 100% rather hear a brother or sister'roar like a lion'in Scripturally-sound proofs of their spirituality,than,hear a seductive'voice of a stranger'(the org.)that 'lulled'-us,til the lulluby-turned..(fill in the blank as you wish).
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-15 21:40:33
Thank you Devora. I will say again, with 100% sincerity, if someone thinks I am wrong, please tell me in plain English; don't just vote me down. Otherwise I will have utterly no idea why you are unhappy. I don't by any means know everything. (Most days I am not sure I even know my own name.)
Contributing to public forums of this sort is always a challenge and a risk. People can get opinionated and passionate. But, being opinionated and passionate is not the same thing as being right. There was a time that I thought the only thing that mattered was being right. But such attitudes fail to take into account the hearts and consciences of the readers, which are just as important as mentally reaching someone with well-developed reasoning.
If you ever want to see what the "risk" is, just go to any other online ex-JW forum (well, ANY online forum any more ...) People have mostly forgotten what manners and courtesy and decency are.
I was just reading the passage in Judges where the alter of Baal was torn down, and when they found out Gideon did it, they wanted to kill him, but his father defended him, by saying Baal ought to defend himself, if he were really a god. It's a funny story, I think.
Anyway, we should be mindful that Jehovah and his son don't *need* others to defend them. They can do that just fine by themselves. They do appreciate when others speak well of them, but we shouldn't be so wrapped up in our own view of theological concepts and doctrinal debates to imagine that "WE speak for God". Whenever people get that idea, it never turns out well. The WT GB and the Catholic church are examples of that.
P.S. Thank you also for remembering that I am dealing with loss, like Eric. It so happens that today is my 40th wedding anniversary. It's a day I have to observe alone, since my wife died nearly 6 years ago. FYI, for those that wondered, my ID with "6512"? That is the day my wife died. It's something I will never get over. Whenever I am on the BP forum, that ID reminds me to never forget her.Reply by wild olive on 2018-04-21 05:20:44
Nice thoughts Robert , and Ime sorry to hear of your loss , I was not aware of that previously, shows how much important stuff can be missed here , even when it's all in writing.
Your thought on "speaking for god" that wonderful delusion I was myself addicted to most of my life, it is "opium" to feel your right about everything, Jesus of course had other plans for my ego. I personally feel that I have grown in any kind of spiritual way in only just the last 4years , I still feel Ime untangling myself from so many wrong doctrines and attitudes that were my "spirituality " when a practicing JW, it grieves me on the time I lost following the words of unreliable men, so I can relate to where you are as well, so if you drop a bomb every so often , don't feel bad , there probably are a few more on the way to closure.
I always like to remember that Paul said the pillar of support of the truth is the congregation (1Tim3:16) and we have a congregation on this site, so together we supported truth, together we speak for god.
Comment by Psalmbee on 2018-04-11 10:02:27
To be or not to be that is the question! Hmmm, I am not going to be looking back as did Lot's wife. I am not going to be doubting my God given spiritual capacity.
(Ps 84:10)
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-11 11:42:29
Hi Meliti. It was about time that the subject was raised, the mystery of being one of the anointed, so thank you for letting us get this out in the open. We have even been discouraged from raising the subject with the anointed. So everybody is left in the impossible situation, namely like it or lump it. And of course, if you are not anointed, then you have no reason to question those who are.
In Romans 5:1 Pauls states that "Now we have become righteous by means of faith". He does not mention any special anointing here, and is writing to the whole congregation.
If there is some special process, limited to a few, why is it hidden ? Those you mention did not hide their experience.
The question I might ask is, is Paul simply comparing those who are led by the flesh with those who are led by the spirit. Does the expression in 8:8 "The spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children" simply mean that the scriptures prove what sort of person we are and what sort of person we want to be, so that if we follow Jesus commands and the Bible, because we wish to please Jehovah and Jesus, then God's word will reveal over time whether this is really our sincere desire (the spirit thus bearing witness with our spirit), and therefore we can have the hope of the blessings which God has prepared for those whom he chooses.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-04-11 13:10:57
I think you nailed it Leonardo.
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-11 17:24:23
Thanks, Eric. Now all I am trying to get to grips with is - what happens when someone who now claims to be of the anointed explains that the heavenly hope is something that has become increasingly stronger, and is all they can focus on ? What is going on ? Is it that only a few have this hope, and they are scattered all over different religions - thereby giving some sort of an answer to part of Jesus wheat and weeds parable ?
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-11 20:15:34
LJ, I have tried to get a handle on this, too. As I mentioned on an earlier post above, I believe there is no heavenly hope. We are all destined for life on earth. When we see in the NT discussions about the spirit, being children of God, being called, etc. there are two different things going on.
These are just my views, and you are free to dispute them.
If we accept that WT is wrong about anointing = heavenly hope, then it becomes a little simpler. Eric has made clear many times that there are not 3 classes of people, those being children of God, friends of God and those not approved. There are only children and non-children. When a Christian becomes a child of God, they are receiving a gift of the spirit, just as it says, the spirit tells them that they are God's sons. Now, perhaps not every Christian is sensitive to this. They may simply "accept" that being Christian is the correct way to live, without giving great thought to all this.
The other thing going on is that some Christians who are God's children will also be allowed to rule on the earth, at some future date, during the 1000 year reign.
We can see a hint of that when it says, Many are called but few are chosen. Yes, many are called to be Christians, but few are chosen to be co-rulers with Christ. The exact number of those co-rulers is unknown, and the 144,000 number is symbolic of that number. The true number could be more or less than that; we don't know.
To me, this only makes sense, because if all true Christians are God's children, they can't possibly ALL be future rulers of the earth. Even if there were a 'whole bunch' of rulers, EVERYBODY can't be kings. It would be crazy, and more importantly, it would not be workable or even needed.
But, if acceptance as God's children does NOT automatically mean we are ALSO going to be kings, then it makes sense.
Well, that's how I see it.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-12 06:17:34
One of the main reasons most of us are on this site is so that we can express our opinions. All we search for is truth, and truth must be in harmony with itself, and therefore with known facts and with the rest of the Bible.
Some things, such as where the Kingdom will operate from, what happens when the earth is full, make little difference until God's due time arrives for those particular things. I may have different views from you, but that does not matter. If someone says that you have won a holiday to paradise, do you worry where that paradise is ?
The most we can do is to search the scriptures and to ensure that what we do believe is true and correct, and all this relies on letting the Bible speak, which, through this site is happening. Thanks Eric.
Thank you for your comments, Robert. We shall have to wait and see what heavenly hope there proves to be and for who.
But by the premise of 2 (or as you say 3) classes of hope means WT are restricting parts of the Bible, saying this or that does not apply to some. It is for all of us, and what Jesus says applies to all.
Reply by Warp Speed on 2018-04-12 14:33:50
Robert and LJ,
Amen and amen!?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-04-12 07:35:09
It is so easy for us to delude ourselves. People have even killed in the name of God, thinking they are ensuring their place in the kingdom of the heavens. (I'm not talking location. :) ) It is God who calls us and God who rewards us, so all we can do is concentrate on our own understanding. The spirit within us will bear witness with God's spirit that we are his children. If we are self-deluding, then I guess that is where the gnashing of the teeth will be on judgment day.
Comment by Joseph Anton on 2018-04-11 13:04:48
An answer to the 'loyalty question' I concocted after much thinking. Basically when asked if you believe the Faithful and Discreet Slave are God's sole channel on Earth, ask them if they feel a specific anointed person in the congregation is actually one of the anointed. Then ask them if that's any of their business whether they are anointed or not - also, how is it any of your business what their thoughts are on the matter anyway?
Comment by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-11 14:29:14
The problem with the WT viewpoint is that they equate having God's spirit with being "anointed" to go to heaven to rule with Christ. But, Romans isn't saying that. It just says that the spirit indicates you are one of God's children.
As you know, Eric, I believe that no one is going to heaven, and that those chosen to rule will remain on earth as humans in every sense of the word. If that understanding were found to be true, it would explain something: Why it is that so many JWs are now partaking, in increasing numbers every year. If they are doing so as a consequence of receiving (and recognizing) that spirit as being children of God, it shows an awareness that WT doctrines and teachings about the spirit, anointing the little flock vs. the great crowd, etc. are incorrect. But, if WT was correct, an increasing number of partakers is hard to explain - SO hard they are doing everything they can NOT to explain it.
If everyone will be on earth, and all these people simply understand themselves to be children of God, without any assumptions as to whether or not they will rule on earth someday, everything makes sense. Well, to me, anyway.
Comment by Vox Ratio on 2018-04-11 20:03:22
On the issue of spirit "anointing", it is interesting to note that other denominations are struggling to contain this very issue from infiltrating their own ranks:
See the same emperor wearing different clothes (from 11:40 - 13:50)
Truly, we are not left ignorant of our enemy's designs (cf. 2 Cor. 2:11).Reply by Joseph Anton on 2018-04-12 14:27:17
There's this New Apostolic Reformation movement, where the leaders are basically anointed, receiving direction from God, and handing it down to followers. The NAR is pretty trendy right now, and controversial in the Evangelical scene.
Reply by Vox Ratio on 2018-04-13 05:39:37
Hi Joseph,
Thanks for pointing out a contemporary example of one of these new revelation missions.
As I encounter it, there is both dignity and disgrace in these movements. There is dignity in their desire to hearken back to the teachings of the apostles, but there is disgrace in their attempts to supplement or supplant their authority. When reading the letter to the Hebrews as well as Jude we are made privy to the truth that the first century faith was, in point of fact, an eschatological faith. That is to say, it was representative of the faith required unto salvation until the end of the age (Heb. 6:4a; Jud. 1:3).
It follows, therefore, that nothing more needs to be added and God help those who would take anything away (cf. Rev. 22:9).Reply by wild olive on 2018-04-13 22:05:52
Can't agree more Vox , many attempts are being made to return to 1st century worship, but that darn ego always pops its unwelcome head up.
I kinda feel that Charles Russell was headed in the right direction, but again , ego got the better of him , as for Joseph Rutherford, well I think he was a bad egg from the start. Sorry if that's off topic , but both of them fell for the " god speaking through me " delusion along with being " anointed".
Comment by wild olive on 2018-04-12 22:50:13
Thanks Eric for opening this subject.
I know speaking for myself that I am not "anointed " with Holy Spirit , however, what I am drawn by is the need to be in a covenant relationship with Jehovah, Paul makes the need for that abundantly clear at Eph 2:12-15. Even more compelling to me are Jesus words at Joh 6: 53-58 and also what he said on the night of the passover at Matt26:28 , that the new covenant is also for the forgiveness of sins, for some reason this gets neglected by WT teaching, do they not realise it's a two part covenant, for a kingdom and for forgiveness? And how can you separate the two?
So for me the spirit bears witness that I have to join myself in covenant agreement, and the only way is to partake, but as far as trotting off to heaven and getting a crown , I barely even think of it, and I certainly don't get the urge reading and studying scripture, I can say for certain that Ime called , but anointed, no way , that's for the future , Paul even had to deal with those super fine apostles who suffered the delusion that they where now ruling, so the problem that Joseph Anton was speaking about in comment below is an old one.
The sad thing is that it is a closed subject in the org.Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-13 08:13:57
W.O., you bring up a good point in mentioning the covenant. I know personally that whenever a religious discussion delves into "covenants" my eyes just glaze over; it can get so boring that I stop listening ...
Anyway, WT today views being anointed like the priests were anointed in the nation of Israel. But, the entire nation was under the covenant, not just the priests. So it sure seems like all Christians ought to be under the new covenant, not just ones destined to rule in the kingdom. But WT never presents it that way. To them, anybody who is not anointed is a nobody.
Aside from looking egotistical and elitist, that kind of attitude seems so short-sighted. If all Christians are God's children, it is demeaning to categorize all but a privileged few into a lower class.Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-13 09:27:38
The sad thing is Robert, they need all those nobodys to keep their anointed
financially successful and also without those nobodys they wouldn't have anybody to listen to them when they claim to be anointed.So being a nobody in the Org. is a very important position in regards to the self proclaimed anointed. They need the nobodys so that they can be somebody, it's a vicious cycle for sure.
Reply by wild olive on 2018-04-13 21:56:19
Hello Robert , just a bit more on covenants , hope your eyes don't glaze over ?
As I see it one constant with Jehovah is that he always has his worshippers in a covenant , Adam had a covenant, albeit a basic one ,that's my tree don't touch it. Noah had a covenant, so did Abraham, also his nephew Lot, David had one as did the whole nation of Israel, and Christians have one today,it seems to me that a covenant is a basic part of the framework that Jehovah establishes for worship, he makes sure his worshippers know where they stand.
A covenant is what makes all the difference. Note what was said to Israel at Duet 28:1-14 , obeying Jehovah's commands, which was following the law covenant, brought wonderful blessings from the most mundane things,ie "going in and going out " or " blessed is your kneading trough " , just doing those simple things became acts of worship that Jehovah blessed, not because of anything special, but it was a covenant that sanctified those actions. So it is for us who follow Christ , we are not holy because we have some special gift or insight,it's the "blood of the covenant " that gives us everything, that's what cleans us up in Jehovah's eyes, it is the centre piece of being a Christian, and my ministry now,what is it?A minister of the new covenant (2 Cor 3:5&6)
Ray Franz opened my eyes to this, his video clip re Rom12:1, you ARE the sacred service, under a covenant whatever you do IS worship, just like for an Israelite woman using her kneading trough became an act of worship and obedience to Jehovah , oh yeah , the power of a covenant , and for us one that has "better promises" (Heb 8:6) imagine being blessed because you used a kitchen utensil, that's what the law covenant could do, what more can the new covenant bring you?
Hope your eyes didn't glaze over.?Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-13 23:32:40
W.O. Thank you. I especially liked your illustration of the kneading trough. My take on this is that if we are children of God, and God is entirely righteous and is a spirit, then everything we do is sacred. I should say, everything we do NEEDS to be sacred. It's up to us whether that is actually true or not.
What we have for breakfast is sacred, how we fold the sheets is sacred, a leaf on a tree outside our window is sacred, because we are in harmony with the universe that our Creator made for us. Romans I think says whatever we do that is not done out of faith is a sin. The converse should be true as well, everything we do in mindful view of our Father is an act of faith and is (or, ought to be) sacred.
There was a funny movie once called The Paper Chase. In the movie, a law student asked his professor if he could speak privately to him, "off the record". The professor replied, "Everything is on the record, always."
It's kind of a similar thing here. Not only is everything on the record, always, but everything we do, every moment of our life, is done in view of our Father. We are always answerable for our actions. We can't say, "I didn't mean it." We always have to mean it.
Just my thoughts ...Reply by wild olive on 2018-04-14 01:01:49
Absolutely Robert, everything is on record, with this understanding, to now follow the spirit instead of the flesh , becomes , at times a moment to moment consideration.
And yes Jehovah the perfect spirit, who we are made in his image, we can now rest from the idea of proving ourselves righteous and depend on Jesus blood to speak for us, so liberating, right down to what you said, enjoying breakfast with our spiritual companions (Joh 14:23)
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2018-04-13 04:09:51
Hi Brain. I have part given my thoughts on your question about 3 comments below this one. What do you think ? Basically I am working on the basis that the Holy Spirit, in this case, is bearing witness via God’s word which then shows up what sort of spirit is really motivating us, in other words we prove ourselves to be God’s children by our attitude to what he says in the Bible, so the Bible (God’s spirit) acts as a witness for (stands up for or proves) what sort of person we are. That is about as clear as I could get. My spouse seemed to see it quite easily. Nothing to do with any special anointing, in my opinion, but more to do with what Paul was discussing about being under the law of the flesh or the spirit.
Note, there is an interesting parallel with the Abba , Father! part in Galatians.
Hope I am not being too repetitious.Reply by Hermanos de cristo on 2018-04-15 06:49:10
me parece que discutir sobre cómo hace él espíritu santo para testificar que somos hijos de Dios es pisar el terreno de Dios. y pienso que es mas sencillo decir que si vives tu vida en el espíritu ya eres hijo de Dios aunque dudemos de nuestra filiación. es un acto de obediencia.claro, a veces podemos hacer cosas que ofendan a nuestro padre pero gracias que no es un amigo mas,ya sabes como son los amigos
Comment by Devora on 2018-04-13 18:51:37
Thank You to All..discussion here is dear to my heart.& no worries,Robert,over being'voted down'(happened to me in voicing my own,private-personal view,couple months ago,over the new heavens/earth interdimensional future of'heaven-on-earth'in Revelation)..after all..."Overwatching us is the Divine,and our freedom to discuss on here-Sublime!we're all together on the Path;(our spiritual comprehension,tho,makes some laugh);indeed this Calling seems both simple -and deep;until we all attain to perfection..in Christ,our Faith-keep." (& Meliti,what I emailed you last yr.about this topic,it was not a setting"in heaven").Many many grateful Thanks for all of you..for this forum,for our growing understandings;blessings,as a family of God's children!
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-13 21:30:54
These things are discouraging, but I should have let it go and not remarked on it. My regrets and apologies for not having more tolerance than that. I am mindful that I am opinionated and sometimes say too much. But truly, if someone thinks I'm wrong, I really want them to say so in plain English. It's the only way we all can learn.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-13 22:56:27
Don't sweat it Robert, I would call it being full of Spirit, we are all guilty of it.
Reply by Hermanos de cristo on 2018-04-15 06:28:50
creería yo que todos tenemos un espíritu fuerte,y si,ser obstinados para ir en contra de un sistema opresivo.no nos gusta estar en ese estado de engaño continúo y opresivo de jw. a veces pienso que mi carácter fuerte ha impedido a los ancianos a hablar conmigo después que mi hijo y yo en un acto de obediencia a nuestro amo participamos de los emblemas (realmente me asombra que no me halla llamado a la sala de atrás, deben estar pensando como hablar del tema,ha habido mucho movimiento jajaja ), pero sabes? cristo te da fuerzas para seguir en tu lucha los mejores hombres y mujeres fueron obstinados
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-15 12:15:00
One definition of faith is doing what you believe to be right, in spite of strong pressure not to. If you truly believe that partaking is correct, then it would show a lack of faith to abstain.
Jesus said, "Keep DOING this, in remembrance of me." He did not say, "Keep OBSERVING this, in remembrance of me."
We must be mindful that at the "last supper", none of the apostles had received gifts of the spirit. There were NO anointed followers. Yet, they all partook, even though they did not fully understand what they were doing. (How could they? NO ONE had ever done that before.)
They did not partake because they "understood", nor because they thought they were "worthy". They did so because Jesus told them to. That was his command to them.
Isn't that his command to us? If so, on what grounds do we refuse to obey Christ? Because some imperfect man with a title of "elder" told us not to?
Reply by Eleasar on 2018-04-15 15:44:38
Robert, the other interesting detail is that the only one who was anointed with Holy Spirit was the only non partaker!
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-15 21:24:37
I do believe Judas did not partake, so with Jesus that would be two.
Comment by LaRhonda T. on 2018-04-14 21:47:28
I so wish I could get my sister to hear this, understand and accept this. She is trapped in Watchtower world and if I so much hint that the "Governing Body" is wrong, she'll run screaming into the night, "Apostate!" "Apostate!" I'll keep hoping that one day she will wake up. She doesn't realize that by refusing to partake, she and so many others are actually rejecting Christ...So sad.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-14 22:34:42
How many years has she been in? if you don't mind me asking?
Reply by LaRhonda T. on 2018-04-15 15:08:27
We were both baptized in November 1992 out at Woodland Hills, Ca. There used to be a large Assembly Hall out there, I believe it was sold sometimes in the late 90's. I do thank all of you for your advice and helpful comments. I don't say anything against the organization to her, matter of fact, we don't even discuss 'religion' when we talk on the phone. She lives in California, I live in Texas, so we don't really see each other often. Prayer and complete reliance on Yahuweh is all I can do, I trust Him and I know that whatever pops off, The Most High is in complete control of all things. I don't think she'll ever leave the organization, but again, Yahuweh knows the heart better than any of us. I will start asking her "innocent questions" just to get the thinking process started. I believe she knows that I no longer consider myself a JW, I don't talk about them, a matter of fact, a few nights ago, we didn't even discuss the Memorial, she didn't bring it up and neither did I. Soooooo. That's where it is right now. Again, thanks for your kind words, the encouragement. Have a wonderful day (or night, depending on where you are on the planet! LOL ) Shalom!!
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-15 17:01:48
Twenty six years is a long time but it's not a lifetime as some here have been having to suffer through. The good thing is you two are still talking,she has not blotted you out of her JW life so that means there may still be an opening there. I still talk to many of my JW family but not about the true Lord Jesus Christ.( nobody can be a prophet in his own hometown or something like that I think is how it goes)! We keep it casual so that the family bond still remains.
Best regards, Psalmbee
Reply by Eleasar on 2018-04-15 04:47:59
It takes time and patience. The best way I have found is to use the NWT and the WT Organisation . Using the bible and the literature ask questions and share scriptures. Leave them with a question to ponder. You need to build up a body of evidence that will help them change thinking. Alongside this they need to see how they can get spiritually fed. The question always is “where can we go?”. Using the bible we can show them it should be “ whom can we go to?” A person, Jesus Christ.
Finally, a Christian is a person of prayer and action. Never tell your sister anything but through your Christian attitude and action, let her see the difference. A tough one when it comes to family members. Prayer will give you the peace of Christ and will provide wisdom and power to cope and help.
Reply by Hermanos de cristo on 2018-04-15 06:10:24
muchos aqui entendemos tu lucha por querer ganar a alguien tan importante para ti para cristo...pero la jw los tiene tan cegados (nunca en mi vida pensé decir algo así,;),).en mi caso es mi madre, ha sido muy difícil ayudarle a razonar con las escrituras a pesar que ella habla mucho de obediencia. sé que se entristece mi estado de rechazo por la organización pero estoy alegre porque por lo menos he ganado a mi hijo. que el cristo te de fuerzas para seguir tu lucha hermana
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-15 09:27:03
I have some family members that will totally shun any kind of information that is presented to them, they regard it as part of Satan's world trying to attack them. Those I call the hard core JW's,for some we must accept they will never leave the Org. No matter what the GB does or says they will always be faithful to them. We can only hope that in time the Org. will crumble, otherwise they are in it till the end. Like Eleasar said actions speak louder than words but for the hard core ones sadly that is still not enough.
Reply by Psalmbee on 2018-04-15 10:31:38
Faith and reason- even the presence of tough, legitimate questions- can all be friends on the side of authentic Christianity. Any religion who isn't willing to accommodate a believer's right to explore truth in the same fields of study as everyone else is surely hiding some insecurity somewhere.
Reply by Robert-6512 on 2018-04-15 12:05:50
LaRhonda, the irony in accusing those critical of the GB of apostasy is that the GB is itself apostate.
The most obvious example I can think of is their mis-reading of Proverbs 4:18 out of context, and applying it to their "light gets brighter" doctrine. If light from God really got "brighter" over time, it had to have been "dark" in some sense of the word before. In plain English, if the GB is God's sole channel of communication, but religious teachings from the GB have been in error, who do they blame?
At times, the GB has blamed its followers, such as for the failed 1975 predictions. Before then, the failed 1925 prediction of Rutherford was just conveniently forgotten and not mentioned much any more. The latest phrasing of this has the GB saying things like, "it used to be understood one way, but a closer look at the scriptures calls for a newer understanding". They seem to gag on the words "mistake" or "wrong".
In any case, all that is contrary to 1 John 1:5: "God is light, and there is no darkness at all in him."
If the GB makes mistakes, then they are not God's channel of communication, and they lied when they claimed they were. But if they really WERE God's channel, and yet the light got "brighter", then the source of that former darkness could only be God Himself. That means the "light gets brighter" doctrine implies that God is a liar. Such a suggestion is blasphemy.
So, either way, the GB is 'standing aside from the truth' in their own definition of the word "apostate".
You see, YOU are not the apostate. THEY are.
Reply by Astoriaboy on 2018-04-25 14:13:39
Sad, isn't it, my sister, how loosely and recklessly the word "apostate" is thrown around in the congregation. I find it useless to try to discuss real Biblical truths with physical men and women. They just don't get it, (John 3:12). Besides, the GB has put itself, not only in the "seat of Moses", but also on the throne of Christ.