Hello and welcome to Part 7 of our exegetical consideration of Matthew 24.
At Matthew 24:21, Jesus speaks of a great tribulation that will come upon the Jews. He refers to it as the worst one of all time.
“for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Mt 24:21)
Speaking of tribulation, the Apostle John is told about something called “the great tribulation” at Revelation 7:14.
“So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Re 7:14)
As we saw in our last video, Preterists believe these verses are linked and that they both refer to the same event, the destruction of Jerusalem. Based on the arguments made in my previous video, I do not accept Preterism as a valid theology, and neither do the majority of Christian denominations. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean the majority of churches don’t believe there is a link between the tribulation Jesus spoke of at Matthew 24:21 and the one the angel mentions at Revelation 7:14. Perhaps this is because both use the same words, “great tribulation”, or perhaps it is because of Jesus’ statement that such a tribulation is greater than anything to come before or after.
Whatever the case, the general idea virtually all these denominations have—including Jehovah’s Witnesses—is nicely summed up by this statement: “The Catholic Church affirms that “before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers…” (St. Catherine of Siena Roman Catholic Church)
Yes, while interpretations vary, most agree with the basic tenet that Christians will endure a great final test of faith at or just before the manifestation of Christ’s presence.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, among others, link that prophecy with what Jesus said would happen to Jerusalem at Matthew 24:21, which they call a minor or typical fulfillment. They then conclude that Revelation 7:14 depicts a major, or secondary fulfillment, what they call an antitypical fulfillment.
Depicting “the great tribulation” of Revelation as a final test has been a real boon for the power of the churches. Jehovah’s Witnesses have certainly utilized it to incite the flock to be afraid of the event as a means to get the rank and file to fall in line with Organizational procedures and dictates. Consider what the Watchtower has to say on the subject:
“Obedience that comes from pressing on to maturity will prove to be no less lifesaving when we face the major fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy that “there will be great tribulation” of unequaled magnitude. (Matt. 24:21) Will we prove to be obedient to whatever future urgent direction we may receive from “the faithful steward”? (Luke 12:42) How important it is that we learn to ‘become obedient from the heart’!—Rom. 6:17.”
(w09 5/15 p. 13 par. 18 Press On to Maturity—“The Great Day of Jehovah Is Near”)
We will be analysing the parable of “the faithful steward” in an future video of this Matthew 24 series, but let me just say now without fear of any reasonable contradiction that nowhere in the Scriptures is a governing body comprised of just a handful of men commanded by prophesy or depicted in any language to be the provider of do-or-die orders to Christ’s followers.
But we’re getting a little off topic. If we are going to give any credence to the idea of Matthew 24:21 having a major, secondary, antitypical fulfillment, we need more than the word of some men with a large publishing company behind them. We need proof from Scripture.
We have three tasks before us.
- Decide whether there is any link between the tribulation at Matthew and that at Revelation.
- Understand what Matthew’s great tribulation refers to.
- Understand what the great tribulation of Revelation refers to.
Let’s start with the supposed link between them.
Both Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 7:14 use the term “great tribulation”. Is that enough to establish a link? If so, then there must also be a link to Revelation 2:22 where the same term is used.
“Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.” (Re 2:22)
Silly, isn’t it? Further, if Jehovah wanted us to see a link based on word usage, then why didn’t He inspire Luke to also use the same term, “tribulation” (Greek: thlipsis). Luke describes Jesus’ words as “great distress” (Greek: anagké).
“For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people.” (Lu 21:23)
Notice also that Matthew records Jesus as saying simply “great tribulation”, but the angel says to John, “the great tribulation”. By using the definite article, the angel shows that the tribulation he refers to is unique. Unique means one of a kind; a specific instance or event, not a general expression of great tribulation or distress. How can a one-of-a-kind tribulation also be a secondary or antitypical tribulation? By definition, it must stand on its own.
Some might wonder if there is a parallel because of Jesus’ words referring to it as the worst tribulation of all time and something that will never occur again. They would reason that the destruction of Jerusalem, as bad as it was, doesn’t qualify as the worst tribulation of all time. The problem with such reasoning is that it ignores the context of Jesus’ words which are very clearly directed to what will soon befall the city of Jerusalem. That context includes warnings such as “then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains” (verse 16) and “keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day” (verse 20). “Judea”? “the Sabbath day”? These are all terms that apply only to the Jews back in the time of Christ.
Mark’s account says much the same thing, but it is Luke that removes any doubt that Jesus was only referring to Jerusalem.
“However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people.” (Lu 21:20-23)
The land Jesus refers to is Judea with Jerusalem as its capital; the people are the Jews. Jesus is here referring to the greatest distress the nation of Israel had ever and would ever experience.
Given all this, why would anyone think there is a secondary, antitypical, or major fulfillment? Does anything in these three accounts state that we should look for a secondary fulfillment of this great tribulation or great distress? According to the Governing Body, we should no longer look for any typical/antitypical or primary/secondary fulfillments in the Scriptures, unless the Scriptures themselves clearly identify them. David Splane himself says that to do so would be to go beyond what is written. (I will put a reference to that information in the description of this video.)
Some of you may not be satisfied with the thought that there is only a single, first-century fulfillment to Matthew 24:21. You might be reasoning: “How could it not apply to the future since the tribulation that came on Jerusalem was not the worst of all time? It wasn’t even the worst tribulation to come upon the Jews. What about the holocaust, for instance?”
This is where humility comes in. What is more important, the interpretation of men or what Jesus actually said? Since Jesus’ words clearly apply to Jerusalem, we have to understand them in that context. We have to bear in mind that these words were spoken within a cultural context very different from our own. Some people look at Scripture with a very literal or absolute view. They don’t want to accept a subjective understanding of any Scripture. Therefore, they reason that since Jesus said it was the greatest tribulation of all time, then in a literal or absolute way, it had to be the greatest tribulation of all time. But the Jews didn’t think in absolutes and we shouldn’t either. We need to be very careful to maintain an exegetical approach to Bible research and not impose our preconceived ideas onto Scripture.
There is very little in life that is absolute. There is such a thing as relative or subjective truth. Jesus was here speaking truths that were relative to the culture of his listeners. For instance, the nation of Israel was the only nation that carried God’s name. It was the only nation he had chosen out of all the earth. It was the only one with whom he had concluded a covenant. Other nations could come and go, but Israel with its capital at Jerusalem was special, unique. How could it ever end? What a catastrophe that would have been to the mind of a Jew; the worst possible kind of devastation.
Sure, the city with its temple had been destroyed in 588 B.C.E. by the Babylonians and the survivors taken into exile, but the nation didn’t end then. They were restored to their land, they rebuilt their city with its temple. True worship survived with the survival of the Aaronic priesthood and the keeping of all the laws. The genealogical records tracing every Israelite’s lineage all the way back to Adam also survived. The nation with its covenant with God continued unabated.
All of that was lost when the Romans came in 70 CE. The Jews lost their city, their temple, their national identity, the Aaronic priesthood, the genetic genealogical records, and most important, their covenant relationship with God as his one chosen nation.
Jesus’ words were therefore fulfilled completely. There is simply no basis to consider this as the basis for some secondary or antitypical fulfillment.
It follows then that the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 must stand alone as a separate entity. Is that tribulation a final test, as the churches teach? Is it something in our future we should be concerned about? Is it even a single event?
We are not going to impose our own pet interpretation on this. We are not seeking to control people by the use of unwarranted fear. Instead, we’ll do what we always do, we will look at the context, which reads:
“After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God, saying: “Amen! Let the praise and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.” (Revelation 7:9-15 NWT)
In our previous video on Preterism, we established that both the external evidence of contemporary witnesses as well as the internal evidence from the book itself when compared with historical data indicate its time of writing was toward the end of the first century, well after Jerusalem’s destruction. Therefore, we are looking for a fulfillment that doesn’t end in the first century.
Let’s examine the individual elements of this vision:
- People from all nations;
- Shouting they owe their salvation to God and Jesus;
- Holding palm branches;
- Standing before the throne;
- Dressed in white robes washed in the Lamb’s blood;
- Coming out of the great tribulation;
- Rendering service in God’s temple;
- And God spreads his tent over them.
How would John have understood what he was seeing?
To John, “people out of all nations” would mean non-Jews. To a Jew, there were only two kinds of people on earth. Jews and everybody else. So, he is here seeing the gentiles who have been saved.
These would be the “other sheep” of John 10:16, but not the “other sheep” as depicted by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Witnesses believe the other sheep survive the end of the system of things into the New World, but continue living as imperfect sinners awaiting the end of the 1,000-year reign of Christ to reach a justified status before God. The JW other sheep are not permitted to partake of the bread and wine that represent the lifesaving flesh and blood of the Lamb. As a consequence of this refusal, they cannot enter into the New Covenant relationship with the Father through Jesus as their mediator. In fact, they have no mediator. They are also not God’s children, but are counted only as his friends.
Because of all this, they can hardly be depicted as wearing white robes washed in the blood of the lamb.
What is the significance of the white robes? They are only mentioned in one other place in Revelation.
“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.” (Re 6:9-11)
These verses refer to the anointed children of God who are martyred for their bearing witness about the Lord. Based on both accounts, it would appear that the white robes signify their approved standing before God. They are justified for eternal life by God’s grace.
As for the significance of the palm branches, the only other reference is found at John 12:12, 13 where the crowd is praising Jesus as the one who comes in God’s name as the King of Israel. The great crowd recognize Jesus as their King.
The location of the great crowd gives further evidence that we are not speaking of some earthly class of sinners waiting for their chance at life by the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ. The great crowd are not only standing before the throne of God which is in heaven, but they are depicted as “rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple”. The Greek word here translated “temple” is naos. According to Strong’s Concordance, this is used to indicate “a temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides.” In other words, the part of the temple where only the high priest was allowed to go. Even if we expand it to refer to both the Holy and the Holy of Holies, we are still talking about the exclusive domain of the priesthood. Only the chosen ones, the children of God, are given the privilege to serve with Christ as both kings and priests.
“and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” (Revelation 5:10 ESV)
(Incidentally, I didn’t use the New World Translation for that quotation because evidently bias has caused the translators to use “over” for the Greek epi which really means “on” or “upon” based on Strong’s Concordance. This indicates that these priests will be present ON earth to effect the curing of the nations – Revelation 22:1-5.)
Now that we understand that it is the children of God who come out of the great tribulation, we are more prepared to understand what it refers to. Let’s start with the word in Greek, thlipsis, which according to Strong’s means “persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation”. You will notice it doesn’t mean destruction.
A word search in the JW Library program lists 48 occurrences of “tribulation” in both the singular and plural. A scan throughout the Christian Scriptures indicates that the word is almost invariably applied to Christians and the context is one of persecution, pain, distress, trials and testing. In fact, it becomes apparent that tribulation is the means by which Christians are proven and refined. For instance:
“For though the tribulation is momentary and light, it works out for us a glory that is of more and more surpassing weight and is everlasting; while we keep our eyes, not on the things seen, but on the things unseen. For the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting.” (2 Corinthians 4:17, 18)
The ‘persecution, affliction, distress, and tribulation’ upon the congregation of Christ began shortly after his death and has continued ever since. It has never abated. It is only by enduring that tribulation and coming out the other side with one’s integrity intact that one gets the white robe of God’s approval.
For the last two thousand years, the Christian community has endured unending tribulation and testing for their salvation. In the middle ages, it was often the Catholic church that persecuted and killed the chosen ones for bearing witness to the truth. During the reformation, many new Christian denominations came into being and took up the mantle of the Catholic Church by also persecuting the true disciples of Christ. We’ve seen recently how Jehovah’s Witnesses love to cry foul and claim they are being persecuted, often by the very persons they are themselves shunning and persecuting.
This is called “projection”. Projecting one’s sin onto one’s victims.
This shunning is just one tiny part of the tribulation that Christians have endured at the hands of organized religion down through the ages.
Now, here’s the problem: If we try to limit the application of the great tribulation to a tiny segment of time such as that represented by events pertaining to the end of the world, then what of all the Christians who died since the time of Christ? Are we suggesting that those who happen to be living at the manifestation of Jesus’ presence are different from all other Christians? That they are special in some way and must receive an exceptional level of testing that the rest do not need?
All Christians, from the original twelve apostles right down to our day must be tried and tested. We all must go through a process by which, like our Lord, we learn obedience and are made perfect—in the sense of being complete. Speaking of Jesus, Hebrews reads:
“Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him. . .” (Heb 5:8, 9)
Of course, we are not all the same, so this process varies from one person to the next. God knows what the type of testing will benefit each of us individually. The point is that every one of us must follow in the footsteps of our Lord.
“And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:38)
Whether you prefer “torture stake” to “cross” is beside the point here. The real issue is what it represents. When Jesus said this, he was speaking to Jews who understood that being nailed to a stake or a cross was the most shameful way to die. You were first stripped of all your belongings. Your family and friends turned their backs on you. You were even stripped of your outer garments and paraded publicly half-naked while being forced to carry the instrument of your torture and death.
Hebrews 12:2 says that Jesus despised the shame of the cross.
To despise something is to abhor it to the point that it has a negative value to you. It means less than nothing to you. It would have to rise in value just to get to the level of meaning nothing to you. If we are to please our Lord, we must be willing to give up everything of value if called upon to do so. Paul looked at all the honor, praise, wealth and position he could have attained as a privileged Pharisee and counted it as just so much garbage (Philippians 3:8). How do you feel about garbage? Do you yearn for it?
Christians have been suffering tribulation for the past 2,000 years. But can we rightly claim that the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 spans such a length of time? Why not? Is there some time limitation on how long a tribulation can last that we are unaware of? In fact, should we be limiting the great tribulation to just the past 2,000 years?
Let’s look at the big picture. The human race has been suffering for well over six thousand years. From the very beginning, Jehovah purposed to provide a seed for the salvation of the human family. That seed is comprised of Christ together with the children of God. In all of human history, has there been anything more important than the formation of that seed? Can any process, or development, or project, or plan surpass God’s purpose to gather and refine individuals from the human race for the task of reconciling humankind back into the family of God? That process, as we’ve just seen, involves putting each one through a period of tribulation as a means to test and refine—to weed out the chaff and gather the wheat. Would you not refer to that singular process by the definite article “the”? And would you not further identify it by the distinctive adjective “great”. Or is there a greater tribulation or testing period than this one?
Really, by this understanding, “the great tribulation” must span all of human history. From faithful Abel right down to the last child of God to be raptured up. Jesus foretold this when he said:
“But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens…” (Matthew 8:11)
Those from eastern parts and western parts must refer to the gentiles that will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—the forefathers of the Jewish nation—at the table with Jesus in the kingdom of the heavens.
From this, it seems evident that the angel is expanding on Jesus’ words when he tells John that a great crowd of gentiles which no man can number will also come out of the great tribulation to serve in the kingdom of the heavens. So, the great crowd are not the only ones to come out of the great tribulation. Obviously, Jewish Christians and faithful men from pre-Christian times were tried and tested; but the angel in John’s vision only makes reference to the testing of the great crowd of gentiles.
Jesus said that knowing the truth will set us free. Think about how Revelation 7:14 has been misused by the clergy to instill fear in the flock so as to better control their fellow Christians. Paul said:
“I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness. . .” (Ac 20:29)
How many Christians throughout time have lived in dread of the future, contemplating a horrific test of their faith in some planet-wide cataclysm. To make matters even worse, this false teaching diverts everyone’s attention from the real test that is our ongoing day-to-day tribulation of carrying our own cross as we strive to live the life of a true Christian in humility and faith.
Shame on those who presume to lead the flock of God and misuse Scripture so as to Lord it over their fellow Christians.
“But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.” (Matthew 24:48-51)
Yes, shame on them. But also, shame on us if we continue to fall for their tricks and deceptions.
The Christ has set us free! Let us embrace that freedom and not go back to being slaves of men.
If you appreciate the work we are doing and wish to keep us going and expanding, there is a link in the description of this video that you can use to help out. You can also help us out by sharing this video with friends.
You can leave a comment below, or if you have a need to safeguard your privacy, you can contact me at meleti.vivlon@gmail.com.
Thank you very much for your time.
Archived Comments
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Comment by Nightingale on 2020-04-12 11:23:17
Thanks for another great video!
I was wondering Revelation 7:9 being about just about the gentile Christians though. When this vision was given, it had been clear for 60 years already that there is just one flock (Jewish and non-Jewish Christians). John had heard himself Jesus talking about this. So I wonder why non-jew Christians would be still seen separately in this vision? When it says "out of ALL nations" couldn't it also be including the Jewish nation as well?Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-04-13 08:53:41
Thank you, Just Asking. I value your reasoning. I will include this in my next video.
Reply by Frankie on 2020-04-14 19:46:40
Hi JA and Eric.
I have some comment on the term "tribe" in Rev 7:9. I agree that Rev 7:9 speaks of all people on Earth, whether they are Hebrews or Gentiles. But there is no need to analyze the word "nation" from the viewpoint of Jews, which can be questionable.
Let us rather look at the context of the whole verse. Who does great multitude consist of? These are the following people:
a) all nations
b) all tribes or kindreds
c) all people
d) all tongues
In this verse it is simply said that all people of the whole earth, in all their diversity of social order and languages, are included here. Totally ALL:
Point b) - the Greek word "phylai" - Strong 5443 - is used here. It means a tribe, race or clan. Note the KJV translation "kindreds".
Point c) - all people without distinction (including Hebrews)
Point d) - all people of all languages (including Hebrews)
There would be no need to specify separately the tribes of Israel and the other nations when other information (c + d) speaks of all people on Earth.
But there is more. The same word "phylai" (Strong 5443) is used in the Bible for all tribes of the Earth, Jews and Gentiles.
This is, at the same time, the answer to the question of JA, where in the Bible the word "tribe" is used for Gentiles:
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all TRIBES of the EARTH will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen" (Rev 1:7, ESV, BSB, NAS, ....)
"Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the TRIBES of the EARTH will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt 24:30, ESV, BSB, NAS, ....)
Love to all picketers. FrankieReply by Frankie on 2020-04-15 15:41:03
Hi JA,
the answer is in my last quotes - Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30. The same word "phylai" (Strong 5443) is used in the Bible for all tribes of the Earth, Jews and Gentiles. All tribes of the Earth contain both tribes of Israel and tribes of Gentiles. So in these quotations also tribes of Gentiles are mentioned. Tribes of Gentiles are part of all tribes of Earth. Period.
Agape to you JA.Reply by Chet on 2020-04-15 22:22:46
This is in keeping with the fact that the Christian congregation was open to all, not just natural Israelites. From the perspective of the first century, this was outstanding. Who would, or could, have imagined that the One True God would deal with all nations, tribe and tongues? Before Peter went to Cornelius, this would have been all but unthinkable. Even after that event, there were problems adjusting to the idea.
Indeed all tribes leaves room for natural Israel, but also for all mankind.
Comment by Elpida on 2020-04-14 15:01:40
As you so clearly point out, you need to read the Scriptures within the contest written. To just take a Scripture on its own may very well muddy the understanding of its meaning.
It’s so uplifting to hear hope instead of a constant feeding of doom. To hear and read that contrary to thinking I was somehow odd in my way thinking of God’s Word, there is comfort in knowing that those who truly want to know the truth are just like me.
Thank you.
Comment by safeguardyourheart on 2020-04-16 16:59:18
Daniel 7:13,14 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; ALL NATIONS and peoples of EVERY LANGUAGE worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
I hope this can help in the TRIBES and NATIONS discussion. Seems NWT uses TRIBE(S) some where in Daniel 7:13,14
Comment by Chet on 2020-04-12 10:35:23
My greatest takeaway from this involves Revelation 5:10. The utter gall of purposely mistranslating this to support their conclusions is sickening. Nothing can excuse this. By this point in time, I had long since lost all confidence in them, but this stunt seems to demonstrate that the Watchtower Organization has purposely operated in bad faith.
All of my life, until fairly recently, I had believed in their two class system and rejected communion with Christ. How many sincere Witnesses have gone to their grave believing that they have done the right thing by not partaking? One could make the argument from scripture that these will not be eligible for the first resurrection and will not be able to reign with Christ.
In the past, I’ve mentioned a friend that served at Bethel for a short time and left there a changed man. In the roughly 40 years of our friendship, he has been consistent in telling me that things at Bethel were not as most Witnesses believed them to be. He told me of a strong class distinction between “anointed” and “other sheep”. Long ago, he told me of a huge library of occult books and this has been verified by many others as the ex-Witness movement has grown. When a religion claims to be Christian, yet discourages its members from observing communion, it begs the question of just what their intent is. As their facade collapses before our very eyes, it strikes me that they may find their dirty laundry aired much more publicly than they ever imagined. I will grant kudos for their sticking to biblical Unitarianism, but that’s about all I can say in flavor of them, at this point.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-04-13 09:27:45
Just Asking,
1. My point was that trying to establish a link just because the same term is being used in both places is flawed reasoning. “The Great Tribulation” is being treated by Christendom as a proper noun.
2. You are using words like “evidently” and “imply” to make your point. I don’t agree with you, but I respect your right to an opinion. What I explain is my opinion. Since the Bible doesn’t give us a hard definition of the phrase “the great tribulation”, we’ll have to content ourselves with that.
3. I think you missed my point on this. Witness doctrine teaches that the tribulation of Mt 24:21 is a type and that of Revelation 7:14 is the antitype. My point was that they have not disavowed the use of unsupported typical/antitypical relationships, yet they are hypocritically continuing to accept this one.
4. Precisely, it “represented [God’s] presence”. So standing in the naos in revelation, means standing in God’s presence, a place where the Other Sheep of JW theology cannot stand, being that they are unanointed sinners.
5. I take your point, but the reality is that Jehovah’s Witnesses use Revelation 5:10 “to prove” that the 144,000 rule from heaven and are not on the earth. But yes, depending on the context, “location vs. dominion”, “over” could work. On BibleHub, a small minority of versions go with “over”, the rest “upon” or “on”. Since these versions are translations made by true Greek Scholars, versus the short time that Fred Franz spent on his Greek college course, I’m opting to accept that most view this as a location over dominion rendering.
6. Good point. I used rapture as a word to describe what Paul refers to when he wrote: “. . .We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet.. . .” (1Co 15:51, 52) However, I’ll refrain from that in the future. I think we need to come up with a word for this, however. Perhaps “transformation”. This would be a good use of the definite article: “The transformation”.
As to your final question, which is more of a demand than a question, I disagree that there is no such thing as heavenly hope. Here we get into definitions. By heavenly hope, I do not refer to the hope that we will live in heaven. I refer to the hope that we will rule in the kingdom of the heavens. I’ll leave it at that for now, as I do not want to go further until I’ve fully researched the matter.Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-14 03:47:40
Thanks for that reply, Eric. I believe that all of us here are simply expressing our opinions. It is hard to express opinions and not sound a little dogmatic, otherwise we will make it seem like we are not confident in the conclusions we have arrived at. Even if that were the case (that we are not confident), expressing our opinion gives the rest of us another view which we may not have considered. I appreciated your flexibility, Eric, as JAs answer must have seemed like a bit of an attack. You took it well, and set an example for the rest of us, namely to consider the opinions of others as having worth.
Reply by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-04-15 07:33:47
JA, Thanks for the clarification, and the time you put in to explaining things.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-04-15 09:37:39
Just Asking, we are both of one mind when it comes to our fear that BP might become just another religion. I do not want anyone to follow me and have said so many times both on the YouTube channel and in this forum.
When I make mistakes, I want others to point them out. The fact is, many have; and I have grown in knowledge and understanding as a result. Sometimes they point them out in a harsh way, but even a dish of bitter food can still be nourishing. I do agree with the comments that others have written expressing concern about your tone. Do not confuse "plain speech" with "harsh or abusive speech". We have a command from our Lord to season our words with salt. It is possible to engage in plain speech and still be tactful. Speaking plainly is not an excuse for speaking unlovingly. Love should always be what motivates us, and since agape is the love that seeks always the best interests of its object, our speech should always seek to uplift. We should tear down false teaching, but we don't want to tear down the person who believes it.
You make some strong accusations about me. You call me unresponsive and intransigent. I'm unaware of what you are referring to. The only time I have been "unresponsive" to others--I"m not talking about you because I cannot recall what you're referring to--is when they become abusive, or refuse to reason on the subject. A common flag that alerts me that any discussion is fruitless is when I ask a question that challenges the other person's reasoning, and they ignore the question or refuse to answer even after repeated attempts. All you have to do is look through the thousands of comments I have answered on the YouTube channel to see what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that is the case here. I'm merely stating that I never refuse to answer a sincere and well reasoned argument just because it disagrees with mine.
Perhaps you could list the various doctrinal issues you say I have refused to discuss with you in a comment. That might help me to trace back what you are referring to. You must understand that I deal with hundreds of comments and emails a week and it is very hard to keep track of them.
Reply by Beroeans Creed on 2020-04-15 10:07:50
Greetings JA
I do agree with many of your scriptural points (not that it really matters) when you post and I realize you have many strong opinions on certain topics,but if I may offer my own opinion on how you come across, at least to me, dogmatic and argumentative.
Granted that may just be what comes across in print and not what one would experience in a face to face conversation with you, but that is how I read many your post.
I respectfully request you make your very valid points couched in more of a humble manner as a loving teacher with the backdrop “this is my understanding on so and so” and leave it there. If any of us are truly trying to help shed light on a topic Col 4:6 is a good principle for us to follow.
If your true motive is to teach and upbuild this would go a long way for ones who are not as scripturally adept as you and that come here to learn from not only Eric, but brothers like you.
When you appear to be “calling out” Eric as if it was some type of Bible based duel it is very distracting and to be honest not upbuilding. Not speaking for Eric, but in my humble opinion please consider one reason he does not reply to your “challenges”could be that he does not wish to promote that type of atmosphere here or to appear to try to defend his take on a scripture as that being the only interpretation.
I say this for the mere reason he allows you to post uncensored, Eric after all is the creator of this site for the benefit of all and could easily not allow contrary opinions.
Where as your apparent writing style and comments are not in harmony with this statement you made.
“Believe me when I tell you, no MAN has “the” answer to the spiritual questions that confront persons of faith. Not Eric. Not me. No one.”
Please know I personally respect your obvious knowledge,it’s just your delivery that I question which you likely disagree with, but remember perception of others is their reality you choose to deal with it or not.
Your Brother in Christ,
Comment by Fani on 2020-04-15 04:46:28
Je suis surprise et un peu peinée du ton des paroles de "je ne faisais que demander".
Je répète ce n'est pas le fond qui me surprend mais la forme.
Sur ce site personne n'est disposée à considérer Éric comme notre chef. Nous sommes tous d'accord, seul Christ est notre chef.
Mais pourquoi ce ton ? Moi aussi comme LJ je l'ai pris comme une attaque.
Je crois qu'on peut tous mieux faire pour présenter nos arguments "avec sel et charme" col 4 : 6
"je ne faisais que demander : J'apprécie pourtant tes arguments ; mais attention de ne pas faire ce que tu reproches aux autres.
Que la paix soit entre nous.
Comment by hudasalfity on 2020-05-14 16:22:44
Hi Eric,
How do we know that Matthew 24: 21 doesn't apply to the fall of Jerusalem in 587 AD?