How the “Shunning” practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses compares to the Hellfire doctrine.
Years ago, when I was a full-fledged Jehovah’s Witness, serving as an elder, I met a fellow witness who had been a Muslim in Iran before converting. This was the first time I had ever met a Muslim who had become a Christian, let alone a Jehovah’s Witness. I had to ask what motivated him to convert given the risk, since Muslims who convert often experience an extreme form of disfellowshipping…you know, they kill them.
Once he moved to Canada, he had the freedom to convert. Still, the gap between the Koran and the Bible seemed a huge one, and I couldn’t see the basis for such a leap of faith. The reason he gave me turned out to be the best response I’ve ever heard for why the doctrine of Hellfire is false.
Before I share that with you, I want to explain that this video will not be an analysis of the Hellfire doctrine. I believe it is false and even more than that, blasphemous; yet, there are still many people, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, et cetera, who hold it to be true. Now, if enough viewers want to hear why the teaching has no basis in Scripture, I’ll be happy to do a future video on the subject. Nevertheless, the purpose of this video is to demonstrate that witnesses, while disdaining and criticizing the doctrine of Hellfire, have in fact embraced their very own version of the doctrine.
Now, to share what I learned from this Muslim man turned Jehovah’s Witness, let me start by saying that he converted when he learned that Witnesses, unlike most nominal Christians, reject the doctrine of Hellfire. For him, Hellfire made no sense. His reasoning went like this: He never asked to be born. Before he was born, he simply did not exist. So, given the choice to worship God or not, why couldn’t he just turn down the offer and go back to what he was before, nothing?
But according to the teaching, that is not an option. Essentially, God creates you out of nothing then gives you two options: “Worship me, or I’ll torture you forever.” What kind of choice is that? What kind of God makes such a demand?
To put this into human terms, let us say a rich man finds a homeless man on the street and offers to put him up in a beautiful mansion on a hillside overlooking the ocean with all the furnishings and clothing and food he’ll ever need. The rich man asks only that the poor man worship him. Of course, the poor man has the right to accept this offer or to refuse it. However, if he refuses, he cannot go back to being homeless. Oh, no, not at all. If he refuses the rich man’s offer, then he must be tied to a post, whipped until he is near death, then physicians will attend to him until he heals, after which he will be whipped again until he nearly dies, at which point the process will start all over again.
This is a nightmare scenario, like something out of a second-rate horror movie. This is not the kind of scenario one would expect from a God who claims to be love. Yet this is the God which proponents of the Hellfire doctrine worship.
If a human were to boast about being very loving, perhaps the most loving of all men, yet acted this way, we would arrest him and throw in an asylum for the criminally insane. How could anyone worship a God who acted like this? Yet, astonishingly, the majority do.
Who exactly would want us to believe that this is the way God is? Who benefits by us having such a belief? Who is the principal enemy of God? Is there anyone known historically as a slanderer of God? Did you know that the word “devil” means slanderer?
Now, back to the title of this video. How can I equate the social act of shunning, with the idea of eternal torture? It might seem like a stretch, but in fact, I don’t think it is at all. Consider this: If the Devil is really behind the doctrine of Hellfire, then he accomplishes three things by getting Christians to accept this doctrine.
First, he gets them to unwittingly slander God by painting him as a monster that delights in inflicting eternal pain. Next, he controls them by instilling fear that if they don’t follow his teachings, they will be tortured. False religious leaders cannot motivate their flock to obedience by love, so they must use fear.
And third…well, I have heard it said, and I believe it to be so, that you become like the God you worship. Think about that. If you believe in Hellfire, then you worship, revere and adore a God who tortures for all eternity anyone who isn’t unconditionally on his side. How does that affect your view of the world, of your fellow human beings? If your religious leaders can convince you that a person is “not one of us” because they hold different political views, religious views, social views, or if they just happen to have skin that is a different color than yours, how will you treat them—given that when they die, your God is going to torture them for all time?
Think about that please. Think about that.
Now, if you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses sitting on your high horse and looking down your long nose at all these poor deluded fools believing this Hellfire fantasy, don’t be so smug. You have your own version of it.
Consider this reality, a story that has been repeated countless times:
If you are an unbaptised teenager in a family of Jehovah’s Witnesses and you chose to never get baptised, what will happen to your relationship with your family when you get older, eventually marry, have children. Nothing. Oh, your Jehovah’s Witness family won’t be happy you never got baptized, but they’ll continue to associate with you, invite you to family gatherings, probably still try to get you to become a witness. But, for a change, let’s say you get baptised at 16, then when you’re 21, you decide you want out. You tell this to the elders. They announce from the platform that you are no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Can you go back to your pre-baptismal status? No, you are shunned! Like the rich man and the homeless man, you either worship the Governing Body by giving them absolute obedience, or your mate, husband or wife, will probably divorce you with the approval of the Organization.
This shunning policy is seen universally as cruel and unusual punishment, a violation of basic human rights. There have been many who have committed suicide, rather than endure the pain of shunning. They have viewed the shunning policy as a fate worse than death.
A Witness can’t imitate Jesus in this regard. He has to wait for the approval of the elders, and they usually delay their forgiveness a minimum of one year after the sinner has repented and left his sin. They do this because they need to humiliate the person as a form of punishment so as to build respect for their authority. It’s all about the authority of those in positions of leadership. It is rule by fear, not love. It comes from the wicked one.
But what about 2 John 1:10? Doesn’t that support the shunning policy?
The New World Translation renders this verse:
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.”
This is the main scripture Witnesses use to support the total shunning of an individual. They claim this means that they are not even allowed to say “hello” to a disfellowshipped person. So, they take this to mean that the Bible commands us to not even acknowledge the existence of someone who is disfellowshipped. But wait. Does this apply to anyone who is disfellowshipped for any reason? What if someone just chooses to leave the Organization? Why do they apply this scripture to them as well?
Why doesn’t the Organization get everyone to read and meditate on the context before forcing people to take such drastic decisions? Why cherry pick one verse? And to be fair, does their failure to consider the context free each one of us from guilt? We have the same Bible, they have. We can read. We can stand on our own two feet. In fact, on judgment day, we will be standing alone before the Christ. So, let’s think here.
The context reads:
“. . .For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 1:7-11)
It is talking about “deceivers.” People willingly trying to deceive us. It is talking about those who “push ahead” and who “do not remain in the teaching –not of the Organization, but of the Christ”. Hmm, people who are trying to force false doctrine on us, who are pushing ahead of what is written in Scriptures. Does that ring a bell? Could it be that they are trying to put the shoe on the wrong foot? Should they be looking at themselves?
John is talking about someone who denies the Christ coming in the flesh, an antichrist. Someone who does not have the Father and the Son.
Witnesses apply these words to brothers and sisters who continue to believe in Jesus and Jehovah but who doubt the interpretation of the men of the Governing Body. Perhaps it is time for the men of the Governing Body to stop projecting their sin onto others. Should they be the ones we should not be willing to eat with, or to say a greeting to?
A word about that phrase: “say a greeting”. It is not a prohibition against speech. Look how other translations render it:
“don’t welcome him” (World English Bible)
“neither wish him happiness” (Webster’s Bible Translation)
“nor say to him, God speed you.” (Douay-Rheims Bible)
“do not even say, ‘Peace be with you.’” (Good News Translation)
“Neither bid him God speed” (King James Bible)
The greeting John refers to means you wish the man well, you are blessing him, asking God to favor him. It means you approve of his actions.
When Christians who believe in Jehovah God and strive to obey the commands of Jesus Christ are shunned by those who presume to worship God and proudly carry his name by calling themselves His Witnesses, then truly the words of Romans apply: “For ‘the name of God is being blasphemed on account of YOU people among the nations’; just as it is written.” (Romans 2:24 NWT)
Let’s expand on the second point, that the shunning practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses is used to instill fear and force compliance in the flock in much the same way as the doctrine of Hellfire is used.
If you doubt what I say concerning the purpose of the Hellfire doctrine, just consider this experience from my personal life.
Years ago, as a Jehovah’s Witness, I had a bible study with an Ecuadorian family that included four teenaged children all living in Canada. We covered the chapter in the book that dealt with the doctrine of Hellfire, and they came to see clearly that it was unscriptural. The next week, my wife and I returned to the study to find that the husband had run off with his mistress, abandoning his wife and children. We were understandably shocked by this unexpected turn of events and asked the wife what brought it on, since he seemed to be doing so well in his Bible study. She confided that when he had learned that he wouldn’t burn in hell for his sins, that the worst that would happen to him would be death, he abandoned all pretext and gave up on his family to enjoy life as he wished. So, his obedience to God was not motivated out of love but out of fear. As such, it was worthless and would never have survived any real test.
From this, we see that the purpose of the hellfire doctrine is to create a climate of fear that will induce obedience to church leadership.
This same outcome is achieved by the unscriptural shunning doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses. PIMO is a term that has come into being in recent years. It stands for or means “Physically In, Mentally Out.” There are thousands—very likely tens of thousands—of PIMOs within the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses. These are individuals who no longer agree with the teachings and practices of the Organization, but who keep up a front so that they do not lose contact with beloved family and friends. It is fear of ostracism that keeps them inside the organization, nothing more.
Because Jehovah’s Witnesses operate under a cloud of fear, not of the punishment of eternal torment, but rather, the punishment of eternal banishment, their obedience is not due to love of God.
Now about that third element in which Hellfire and Shunning are two peas in a pod.
As we have already affirmed, you become like the God you worship. I have talked to Christian fundamentalists who are quite happy with the idea of Hellfire. These are individuals who have been wronged in life and who feel powerless to fix the injustice they have suffered. They take great comfort in the belief that those who have wronged them will one day suffer horribly for all eternity. They have become vindictive. They worship a God who is unbelievably cruel and they become like their God.
Religious people who worship such a cruel God become cruel themselves. They can engage in such horrific acts as the Inquisition, the so-called Holy Wars, genocide, burning people at the stake…I could go on, but I think the point is made.
You become like the God you worship. What do Witnesses teach about Jehovah?
“…if one should remain in this disfellowshiped condition till he died, it would mean his everlasting destruction as a person who is rejected by God.” (The Watchtower, Dec. 15, 1965, p. 751).
"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." (Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19)
They teach that if you didn’t have the good sense to accept The Watchtower and Awake when they came knocking on your door, you are going to die eternally at Armageddon.
Now these teachings are not in line with that Jehovah tells us in the Bible, but this is the idea that Witnesses have of their God and so it affects their mental attitude and world view. Again, you become like the God we worship. Such a belief creates an elitist attitude. Either you’re one of us, for better or worse, or you’re dog meat. Were you abused as a child? Did the elders ignore your cry for help? Do you now want out because of how they treated you? Well, then, you have disregarded the august authority of the elder body and must be punished with shunning. How cruel, but yet, how typical. After all, they are just imitating the God as they see him.
The devil must be delighted.
When you submit to the doctrines of men, whatever your religious denomination may be, you become slaves of men and are no longer free. Eventually, such enslavement will result in your humiliation. The wise and intellectual ones who opposed Jesus thought they were above reproach. They thought they were serving Jehovah. Now history looks back on them as the greatest of fools and the epitome of wickedness.
Nothing has changed. If you oppose God and chose instead to support men, you will eventually look the fool.
In ancient times, there was a man named Balaam who was paid by the enemies of Israel to call down a curse upon the nation. Each time he tried, the spirit of God moved him to pronounce a blessing instead. God thwarted his attempt and tried to get him to repent. But he did not. Centuries later, another so-called holy man, the high priest of the nation of Israel was conspiring to have Jesus killed when the spirit became operative on him and he pronounced a prophetic blessing. Again, God gave the man a chance to repent but he did not.
When we try to support the false teachings of men, we may unwittingly condemn ourselves. Let me give you two modern examples of this:
Recently, there was a case in Argentina where a brother and his wife began to express doubts about some of the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses. This was during the time of the international convention, so the elders started to circulate warnings to all the brothers and sisters using phone calls and text messages slandering this couple by informing everyone that they would be disfellowshipped once the convention was over and the meetings were resumed (they hadn’t met with the couple yet). The couple took legal action and wrote a letter to the branch. The result of that was that the branch had the elders back off so that no announcement was made; leaving everyone wondering what was going on. Nevertheless, the branch letter fully supported the actions of the local elders. (If you wish to read about the case, I will put a link to the series of articles published on the Beroean Pickets website in the description of this video.) In that letter, we find that the brothers in the branch unwittingly condemn themselves:
“Finally, we sincerely and deeply express our wish that, as you carefully meditate prayerfully on your position as God’s humble servant, you may proceed according to divine will, focus on your spiritual activities, accept the help that the elders of the congregation seek to give you (Revelation 2:1) and “Throw your burden on Jehovah” (Psalm 55:22).”
If you read the whole of Psalm 55 you will see that it is dealing with the oppression of a righteous man by evil ones in positions of power. The final two verses pretty much sum up the entire Psalm:
“Throw your burden on Jehovah, And he will sustain you. Never will he allow the righteous one to fall. But you, O God, will bring them down to the deepest pit. Those bloodguilty and deceitful men will not live out half their days. But as for me, I will trust in you.” (Psalm 55:22, 23)
If the couple is to “throw their burden on Jehovah”, then the branch is casting them in the role of the “righteous one”, leaving the role of the “bloodguilty and deceitful men” for the branch and local elders to fill.
Now let’s look at another example of how foolish we can be when we seek to justify the actions of the men who teach lies, instead of holding to the truth of God’s word.
[Insert video of Toronto judicial committee]
All this brother wants is to be able to leave the Organization without being cut off from his family. What reasoning does this elder use in defense of the Organization’s position on shunning? He talks about how many individuals who left their former religion to become Witnesses suffered shunning. Obviously, the Witnesses who did this are seen as virtuous because they valued what they held to be true as more important than maintaining contact with family members who remained in “false religions”.
So, who is the brother like in this example? Is it not the brave individuals who left false religion in search of truth? And who did the shunning? Was it not the members of his former religion, people who were part of false religion?
This elder is using an analogy that casts this brother as a valiant seeker of truth and the congregation of Jehovah’s Witness as the same as the false religions that shun those who leave them.
One can almost see the spirit at work, causing these men to utter truth that condemns their own actions.
Are you in this situation? Do you want to worship Jehovah and obey his son as your savior free from the artificial and heavy burdens placed upon you by modern-day Pharisees? Have you faced or do you expect to face shunning? The words of blessing you just heard uttered by this elder, like some modern-day Balaam, should fill you with confidence that you are doing the right thing. Jesus said that “everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.” (Matthew 19:29)
Further, you have the unwitting reassurance of the Argentina branch office, like some modern-day high priest, that Jehovah God will not let you, “his righteous one”, fall, but that he will sustain you while bringing down the “bloodguilty and deceitful men” who persecute you.
So, take heart all you who will remain faithful to God and true to his son. “Stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.” (Luke 21:28)
Thank you very much.
Archived Comments
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Comment by saraybach54 on 2020-06-14 04:04:19
“Hoisted by their own petard...”
We can take comfort from this knowledge, that The Lord is watching... and His Spirit has it all in hand... just as He promised us...
But we must all stay alert to our own, “rafters”... lest we fall into the same trap... of thinking we’re right about everything... and everyone else has got it wrong...
All we can do is to keep examining the scriptures and asking for guidance... realising that faith, along with humility are the two most important ingredients in any approach we make... and trust that The Lord is patient, cos He can see the bigger picture...
Personally though, I find one of the most frustrating and infuriating elements of all this... is the reverence the hierarchy, (including the modern day gb) have managed to instill of themselves... by insidiously drip-feeding the Lord’s sheep of their importance...whilst undermining Him at every turn... and no one dares see it...
It’s like, “The King’s New Clothes”...
I watched Lloyd’s excellent tour of the new facility in Warwick...and I remember vividly as a child, going to Bethel (Watchtower House, Mill Hill...) and feeling the awe generated by it all... as if it was a privilege to be allowed to visit... It’s funny how money/luxury does that...
I recently went to the new building, across the way... and the hushed lighting, in a huge, marble-clad - with palms - foyer... was like a 5* luxury hotel... and my tummy turned over...
I could imagine The Lord walking in... and walking straight out again...
These subtle mind games, deter genuinely humble people from challenging them...
I want to go and gatecrash their “behind closed doors“ meetings... and give them what for... but I’d never get past security...
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-06-14 11:04:06
If you ever do that, make sure you record it. ?
Reply by saraybach54 on 2020-06-14 14:23:49
The reason I visited the new place in Mill Hill (2011) was to confront Peter Bell... who was my mother’s “ministry buddy...” and an elder in her congregation... He’s one of the top dogs there... (Look him up)
She kept asking why he hadn’t visited her in the hospital yet... (she was having a hip operation and the hospital was only 3 miles from Bethel). I got so fed up... I swung by there on my way home one afternoon... and asked to speak with him... He knew who I was... and he kept me waiting for 2 hours... and then he sent someone else to say he was too busy to see me...
So I spoke to my mum’s study overseer who was due to go on the ministry with him that weekend...
He didn’t call, so I called him and he was really embarrassed... and said that Peter Bell was really angry that I’d had the nerve to come to the Bethel and demand to see him...
My mum went downhill from there in... tho’ she lasted another 2 years, her mind deteriorated... but he never came to visit her...
So I know it would be pointless to waste my energy on them...
The Lord will sort them all out... with a few of His, “Millstones...”...
Comment by Maria on 2020-06-14 07:27:16
@ saraybach54
Dear sister,
The place where you are, I was in about 5 years ago.
Every story is unique, but there are simularities, we all have to go through.
I understand your need to make a point come acros towards the GB of Jehovah ‘s Witnesses.
Try to change your feelings of being very angry into positive feelings, because every thought you spend on those GB is holding you back and keeping you hostage, so they are still within your mind being....... BOSS.
But we dont want to be their slaves anymore, we want to be slaves to our gentle Lord Jesus and his and our Father Yahweh.
Our heavenly Father want to embrace us with the Love He is. When you feel so angry, you almost burst, sit down on a quiet place and take a moment to pray to Our Father and tell Him you feelings, He understands and every time you feel that nasty tummychurningfeeling, you put PRAYER into your mind instead.
In time you WILL feel better and who is a better Judge than our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:19 (NIV): 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
We all reap what we sow.
Thinking of you,
With love your sister in faith,
Maria
@ saraybach54
Dear sister,
The place where you are, I was in about 5 years ago.
Every story is unique, but there are simularities, we all have to go through.
I understand your need to make a point come acros towards the GB of Jehovah ‘s Witnesses.
Try to change your feelings of being very angry into positive feelings, because every thought you spend on those GB is holding you back and keeping you hostage, so they are still within your mind being....... BOSS.
But we dont want to be their slaves anymore, we want to be slaves to our gentle Lord Jesus and his and our Father Yahweh.
Our heavenly Father want to embrace us with the Love He is. When you feel so angry, you almost burst, sit down on a quiet place and take a moment to pray to Our Father and tell Him you feelings, He understands and every time you feel that nasty tummychurningfeeling, you put PRAYER into your mind instead.
In time you WILL feel better and who is a better Judge than our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:19 (NIV): 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
We all reap what we sow.
Thinking of you,
With love your sister in faith,
Maria
@ saraybach54
Dear sister,
The place where you are, I was in about 5 years ago.
Every story is unique, but there are simularities, we all have to go through.
I understand your need to make a point come acros towards the GB of Jehovah ‘s Witnesses.
Try to change your feelings of being very angry into positive feelings, because every thought you spend on those GB is holding you back and keeping you hostage, so they are still within your mind being....... BOSS.
But we dont want to be their slaves anymore, we want to be slaves to our gentle Lord Jesus and his and our Father Yahweh.
Our heavenly Father want to embrace us with the Love He is. When you feel so angry, you almost burst, sit down on a quiet place and take a moment to pray to Our Father and tell Him you feelings, He understands and every time you feel that nasty tummychurningfeeling, you put PRAYER into your mind instead.
In time you WILL feel better and who is a better Judge than our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:19 (NIV): 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
We all reap what we sow.
Thinking of you,
With love your sister in faith,
Maria
@ saraybach54
Dear sister,
The place where you are, I was in about 5 years ago.
Every story is unique, but there are simularities, we all have to go through.
I understand your need to make a point come acros towards the GB of Jehovah ‘s Witnesses.
Try to change your feelings of being very angry into positive feelings, because every thought you spend on those GB is holding you back and keeping you hostage, so they are still within your mind being....... BOSS.
But we dont want to be their slaves anymore, we want to be slaves to our gentle Lord Jesus and his and our Father Yahweh.
Our heavenly Father want to embrace us with the Love He is. When you feel so angry, you almost burst, sit down on a quiet place and take a moment to pray to Our Father and tell Him you feelings, He understands and every time you feel that nasty tummychurningfeeling, you put PRAYER into your mind instead.
In time you WILL feel better and who is a better Judge than our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:19 (NIV): 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
We all reap what we sow.
Thinking of you,
With love your sister in faith,
Maria
@ saraybach54
Dear sister,
The place where you are, I was in about 5 years ago.
Every story is unique, but there are simularities, we all have to go through.
I understand your need to make a point come acros towards the GB of Jehovah ‘s Witnesses.
Try to change your feelings of being very angry into positive feelings, because every thought you spend on those GB is holding you back and keeping you hostage, so they are still within your mind being....... BOSS.
But we dont want to be their slaves anymore, we want to be slaves to our gentle Lord Jesus and his and our Father Yahweh.
Our heavenly Father want to embrace us with the Love He is. When you feel so angry, you almost burst, sit down on a quiet place and take a moment to pray to Our Father and tell Him you feelings, He understands and every time you feel that nasty tummychurningfeeling, you put PRAYER into your mind instead.
In time you WILL feel better and who is a better Judge than our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:19 (NIV): 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
We all reap what we sow.
Thinking of you,
With love your sister in faith,
Maria
@ saraybach54
Dear sister,
The place where you are, I was in about 5 years ago.
Every story is unique, but there are simularities, we all have to go through.
I understand your need to make a point come acros towards the GB of Jehovah ‘s Witnesses.
Try to change your feelings of being very angry into positive feelings, because every thought you spend on those GB is holding you back and keeping you hostage, so they are still within your mind being....... BOSS.
But we dont want to be their slaves anymore, we want to be slaves to our gentle Lord Jesus and his and our Father Yahweh.
Our heavenly Father want to embrace us with the Love He is. When you feel so angry, you almost burst, sit down on a quiet place and take a moment to pray to Our Father and tell Him you feelings, He understands and every time you feel that nasty tummychurningfeeling, you put PRAYER into your mind instead.
In time you WILL feel better and who is a better Judge than our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:19 (NIV): 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
We all reap what we sow.
Thinking of you,
With love your sister in faith,
Maria
Dear sister,
The place where you are, I was in about 5 years ago.
Every story is unique, but there are simularities, we all have to go through.
I understand your need to make a point come acros towards the GB of Jehovah ‘s Witnesses.
Try to change your feelings of being very angry into positive feelings, because every thought you spend on those GB is holding you back and keeping you hostage, so they are still within your mind being....... BOSS.
But we dont want to be their slaves anymore, we want to be slaves to our gentle Lord Jesus and his and our Father Yahweh.
Our heavenly Father want to embrace us with the Love He is. When you feel so angry, you almost burst, sit down on a quiet place and take a moment to pray to Our Father and tell Him you feelings, He understands and every time you feel that nasty tummychurningfeeling, you put PRAYER into your mind instead.
In time you WILL feel better and who is a better Judge than our Lord Jesus.
Romans 12:19 (NIV): 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
We all reap what we sow.
Thinking of you,
With love your sister in faith,
MariaReply by saraybach54 on 2020-06-14 14:32:09
Thank you dear sister, Maria... xx
I hear you xxx
It’s more frustration than anger... because they are dishonouring our heavenly Father’s name... just by using it... and they dishonour Our Lord by reducing Him to an angel... and not offering Him the worship His Father says He deserves... but they are just fulfilling scripture, so I don’t worry... I just get indignant lol xxx
But thank you for your great kindness and love xxx
Same back to you xxx
Comment by Maria on 2020-06-14 07:33:41
Didnt see my comment appear, so I tried again, and The Message comes over in in 7th fold.
Love Maria
Comment by Fani on 2020-06-14 09:11:37
Bonjour a tous
Je voulais juste poser une question d'ordre general.
Je vois une nouvelle rubrique "évaluation de l'article".
Qui évalue ?
Pourquoi ?
Je trouve bizarre de juger ou évaluer un article.
Merci de votre réponse et merci encore pour vos articles que j'attends toujours.
Mon amour fraternel.
Nicole
Comment by frankvague on 2020-06-14 12:38:04
Great article!
Comment by Leonardo Josephus on 2020-06-14 16:17:02
Hi Eric, thank you so much for addressing this .
At last we are on the topic which led me to waking up.
I have written a number of letters on 2 John 11, getting replies to most of them.
The first reply defended disfellowshipping, saying, inter alia, that the scriptures simply state to "remove the wicked man from among yourselves" (! Corinthians 5:13). There is a lot of difference between a person who commits a sin and those who are wicked. Unfortunately, my experience is that it was more important to "keep the congregation clean" than anything else, with the result that many who had sinned were fed to the lions, as it were. If they came back, it proved the Organisation had it right, and if they didn't then they were the wrong sort of person.
Most of the letters on the subject simply defended disfellowshipping itself. Obviously there are circumstances when a person needs to be removed, otherwise Paul would not have written what he did.
As to 2 John 11, the first reply that referred to this verse simply said that "we do not feel it appropriate to comment on texts already explained in our publications", citing questions from readers in 15 11 64 Watchtower and one from 2011, along with the 1985 study articles on the same subject.
Regarding a family member, I received a reply which simply said "the best we can do for a disfellowshipped loved one is to uphold the theocratic arrangement", adding "if by our actions we in any way undermine the Scriptural stand taken by the congregation as a whole, we may inadvertently hinder a person's benefitting from Jehovah's discipline. That letter completely avoided any comment on 2 John.
The next reply did address 2 John 11, focusing on verse 9 (those who do not remain in the teaching of the Christ). The letter suggested that remaining in the teaching meant living in harmony with such teachings. The letter than paralleled Apostasy with other serious sins such as sexual immorality, idolatry, drunkenness and the misuse of drugs stating that reasonably John's instruction include both apostates and others who do not remain in the teaching of the Christ.
A further claim at that time was that I could be sure that Jehovah's organisation will continue to examine the scriptures carefully.
A further letter included the claim that "The direction of 2 John 11 could well mean not to say even "Hello" to such ones.
A reply stated that there are a number of scriptures help us to see Jehovah's thinking on how those who are disfellowshipped are to be viewed, citing Ephesians 5:17, and 1 Timothy 3:16, 17.. What those verses have to do with the subject, I never discovered.
I ceased writing at this point, as it was clear that all responses would continue to be evasive.
The organisation will not recognise the context of 2 John, because it will undermine their stance on "not saying a greeting", as well as the line, based on Luke 10:4 to "not greet anyone on the road", a scripture that was also used to deter even saying "hello".
This is a problem we find when a religious authority misapplies a passage in the Bible, and then uses that verse to support their actions against those who might cause difficulties for them. The 1981 articles on disfellowshipping came soon after the dismissal of Ray Franz, and others connected with them.
Matthew 24:48-50 reminds us that "if ever that evil slave..starts to beat his fellow slaves...the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and at an hour that he does not know and will punish him with the greatest severity". We all have the responsibility to act in line with the scriptures, and deal with our fellow man in line with the expression "to love our neighbour as ourselves".
Sorry this was so long. A lot of effort went into the original letters.
Comment by new englander on 2020-06-14 20:58:07
Excerpt of a letter that I sent to a devout witness couple of whom I love that will probably now never speak to me again. I changed their names for their privacy.
Excerpt: Lastly something else that disturbs me is the witness practice of disfellowshipping. It is sold as being a loving provision from Jehovah but I do not buy it. It is a powerful powerful tool used by the organization to demand and ensure strict obedience. If a Christian commits and continues to commit serious sin then yes, certainly removal from the congregation and congregation activities is scripturally warranted. I understand that Christians must be careful in their associations. I however dispute the prohibition of speaking to disfellowshipped ones as being scripturally mandated, especially to those who have been disfellowshipped for years but who are now living honorable lives and in reality have zero intention of returning. The evidence presented for this prohibition of any and all association with a disfellowshipped one even down to speaking to that person is at best very weak and an area where Christians should be left to carry their own load.
Jehovah's Witnesses who blindly follow this direction would do well to consider their own actions and to consider what Paul said at First Corinthians 7:23. "Ye were bought with a price; become not bondservants of men."(ASV) Witnesses need to ask themselves is this really the course of action mandated by scripture? Is this my personal and sincere understanding of the meaning of these scriptures? If the answer is anything less than an honest and emphatic yes then perhaps one is indeed a bondservant of men. If one is not really sure that scripture mandates this treatment of another person but fears the reactions of others then perhaps one is indeed a bondservant of men. We must not confuse loyalty to Jehovah with loyalty to any organization whatsoever managed by men.
The two passages of scripture primarily used to support the practice of disfellowshipping and the treatment of disfellowshipped individuals are First Corinthians chapter 5 and Second John 1:9-11 and I might add, quite likely First Samuel 15:23. Just as a quick side note. I previously mentioned sectarian bias in The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures and it seems to me based on a comparison of several other bible translations that First Samuel 15:23 was specifically worded in the NWT to be used as a disciplinary scripture. Back to the subject at hand, there is no need of me to quote these scriptures here because you are likely very familiar with these passages and also have a bible at your disposal. What I will say is this. I'll start with First Conrinthians chapter 5.
When I read this passage of scripture I think of my brother Justin and your daughter Jodi . I have not seen nor spoken to Jodi in many years but I often think of her and I know by her charitable work that she is still a wonderful person. Justin and Jodi both got baptized young when they were still teenagers. They were both disfellowshipped when they were young and so have each now been disfellowshipped for many years. Neither Justin nor Jodi claim to be Jehovah's Witnesses, and at this point in their lives they are no more a "brother" or "sister" than one who never had any contact with the witnesses whatsoever, plain and simple. While Paul is addressing a different set of circumstances in this verse, perhaps First Corinthians 7:15 is still applicable to this matter. It says, "Yet if the unbelieving departeth, let him depart: the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us in peace." Is refusing to even greet a person peaceable? What about Romans 12:18?
Paul plainly stated in verse 10 of chapter 5 that his prohibitions did not include those of the world of which Justin and Jodi are. Verse 11 says, "I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one." (NASB) The verse does not say was, it says is; and neither Justin nor Jodi are presently any of these and neither has been for many years. Paul goes on to state that he does not judge those who are outside and in verse 13 makes it clear that it is god who judges those who are outside of the congregation. Christians do well to follow this example. Let us be peaceable and leave the judging to god. Be careful and mindful of our associations, yes, but let each carry his own load and leave the judging to god.
Justin and Jodi have both been married now for several years. They are both law abiding, productive, members of society. They are both living honorable lives. I love you both Reggie and Kathy and that is why I am being frank. For years you had contact with Butchy and Grandpa Sagar and yet you can not even speak to Jodi because she was baptized as a teenager and disfellowshipped some 25 years ago. This is totally unreasonable. The last thing that I want to do is sadden you Reggie and Kathy but there is frankly no reason to hope or believe that Jodi is ever going to be a Jehovah's Witness again. Justin will never again be a Jehovah's Witness. Honestly based on Luke 21:8 and Second John 1:7, I hope that they do not return to the witness organization.
Hopefully you haven't thrown this out yet because I do want to mention Second John 1:9-11. Several bible translations including the New World Translation in verse 9 say something like whoever pushes ahead or goeth onward and does not remain in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Some bible translations say whoever transgresses. I think that one could arrive at a couple of interpretations of the apostle's meaning depending on the translation of the bible they are using. It is my view that the apostle was referencing verse 7 in verse 9 and the pushing ahead was and is the denial that Jesus came in the flesh, (a view being presented by some at the time of the apostle's letter) and is coming in a material bodily manner. If Stephen T. Byington was correct in his translation, then it is Justin and Jodi who should not be speaking to you, not vice versa. I will not tell them though. I suspect that the vast majority of disfellowshipping offenses are sexual in nature. While certainly wrong and deserving of consequence it is not pushing ahead it is going backward. When a Christian sins and they know what they did or are doing is wrong it is not pushing ahead it is going backward. I doubt very much that the reasons that the vast majority of people are disfellowshipped for is what the apostle had in mind or was addressing. Making the claim that the teaching of Christ that John was writing about equates with all Jehovah's Witness teaching and doctrine is a far better example of pushing ahead presumptously than commiting fornication or adultery years ago.
One other passage scripture that the organization conveniently overlooks in the matter of disfellowshipping is James 5:19-20. "My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins."(ASV) How can a believer turn back a fellow believer if he or she is prohibited from even speaking to their fellow believer? Where in the bible does it say that this only the job and duty of the elders? I know of no such scripture.
End of excerpt.
additional comments:
When a person is shunned who do they have to turn to? If they are forced to associate with "worldly people" does this not significantly lower the likelihood that they will see the error of their ways and repent? Why would anyone expect them to turn to the elders who likely mistreated them during the disfellowshipping process? What kind of a witness does this treatment give to the associates of the disfellowshipped one?
Philippians 4:5 "Let your reasonableness become known to all men. The Lord is near."
Comment by new englander on 2020-06-14 21:18:59
I have one other comment that is slightly off topic, though related, and perhaps it has been mentioned before. John 11:52 gives a clear definition of the identity of the "other sheep". While this scripture does use the term "children" it is a pretty clear rebuttal for the watchtower teaching of two classes of Christians.
Comment by Fani on 2020-06-19 04:54:16
J'ai eu l'occasion de conduire des études qui se sont fait baptiser.
Je pense ne pas avoir abordé le sujet de l'exclusion d'une façon précise. A ce moment là on n'étudiait pas le livre "Gardez vous dans l'amour de Dieu" qui aborde le sujet plus en profondeur (pour les membres d'une famille).
Pour ma part, lorsque je me suis fait baptiser en 1971 (15 ans) je n'avais pas conscience de ce que signifiait l'excommunication et d'ailleurs les règles étaient différentes.
Je voudrais partager une anecdote :
Il y a 3 ans environ j'assistais à une étude biblique. La soeur devait aborder le sujet sur l'excommunication. Comme elle savait qu'elle même ne respectait pas les règles de la société, elle a dit à la personne : "ce chapitre, vous le verrez avec mon mari" et elle a donc sauté le chapitre.
J'étais abasourdie. Je n'ai rien dit. Plus tard, j'ai demandé à son mari (un ancien) s'il était allé faire le chapitre à la dame, en lui rapportant les paroles de sa femme. Il n'était évidemment au courant de rien. Je ne sais pas ce qu'ils se sont dit à la maison...
Je sais donc que cette dame âgée qui est maintenant une sœur n'était pas au courant lors de son baptême de la position des JW sur l'excommunication.
Je rajouterai que plusieurs fois cette même soeur m'a demandé de ne rien dire sur le fait qu'ils côtoyaient leur fils excommunié. Elle a rajouté que son mari ancien ne voulait pas qu'elle en parle.
Voilà ou nous amène la discordance cognitive. A l'hypocrisie.
Je rajouterai que ce frère ancien que j'ai ménagé, a participé à mon excommunication.
Un jour je lui ai demandé ce qu'il penserait si je devoilais tout ça aux autres anciens. Il ne m'a pas repondu. Je n'ai jamais rien dit (bien que j'ai eu parfois envie de le faire ). Je ne lui en veux pas, il se débat comme il peut... C'était un ami très proche.
Fraternellement
Nicole
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2020-06-19 11:06:15
Brings to mind Tom Cruise in The Firm.
Comment by PierrotSud on 2021-04-04 11:42:06
I live in the South West of France, which is called "Cathar country".
I don't know if you know it.
It is a movement of men and women who believe but reject the dogmas of Christianity such as the trinity, the worship of idols, the worship of the cross, etc... They had other practices that were not in accordance with the Bible.
Pope Innocent III decided on a crusade against them in the year 1209 to 1229.
He sent a lord by the name of Simon de Montfort, ordering him to destroy the heresy.
This lord went through all the towns in the south of France inspecting who was a heretic or not.
They were imprisoned and then had to go to the tribunal of the inquisition led by Franciscan monks, such as Bernardo Gui, Guilhem Belibaste, etc...
These Cathars had the choice: either they abjured and remained prisoners for life, or they were burned alive.
Fortunately we no longer live in those times, but we can still draw parallels with the way the Central College treated those who did not recognize it.
Anthony Morris would like to see us die slowly. Wouldn't he be an "inquisitor" by these words?
The Central College orders brothers and sisters to separate themselves from those who have withdrawn, even from their own family members.
Is this isolation not a kind of moral and psychic execution against those who worship Jehovah and his son Jesus but do not recognize the Central College, just as the Cathars and others did not recognize the Catholic Clergy?