God’s Nature: How Can God Be Three Distinct Persons, But Just One Being?
There is something fundamentally wrong with the title of this video. Can you spot it? If not, I’ll get to that at the end. For now, I wanted to mention that I got some very interesting responses to my previous video in this Trinity series. I was going to launch right into an analysis of common Trinitarian proof texts, but I’ve decided to hold that off until the next video. You see, some people took exception to the title of the last video which was, “The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan?” They didn’t understand that “Given by God” meant “revealed by God.” Someone suggested that a better title would have been: “Is the Trinity a Revelation from God or from Satan?” But isn’t a revelation something true that is hidden and then is uncovered or “revealed”? Satan doesn’t reveal truths, so I don’t think that would have been an appropriate title.
Satan wants to do everything he can to foil the adoption of the children of God because when their number is complete, his time is up. So, anything he can do to block a proper relationship between Jesus’ disciples and their heavenly Father, he will do. And an excellent way to do that is to create a counterfeit relationship.
When I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I thought of Jehovah God as my Father. The publications of the organization always encouraged us to have a close relationship with God as our heavenly father and we were led to believe that was possible by following Organizational instructions. Despite what the publications taught, I never looked at myself as a friend of God but rather as a son, even though I was led to believe there were two levels of sonship, one heavenly and one earthly. It was only after I broke free of that cloistered mentality that I could see that the relationship I thought I had with God was a fiction.
The point I’m trying to make is that we can easily be fooled into thinking we have a good relationship with God based on doctrines that we are taught by men. But Jesus came to reveal that it was only through him that we get to God. He is the door through which we enter. He is not God himself. We do not stop at the door, but we go through the door to get to Jehovah God, who is the Father.
I believe the Trinity is just another way—another tactic of Satan—to get people to have a wrong concept of God so as to foil the adoption of the children of God.
I know I will not convince a Trinitarian of this. I’ve lived long enough and spoken to enough of them to know how futile that is. My concern is only for those who are finally waking up to the reality of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I don’t want them to be seduced by another false doctrine just because it is widely accepted.
Someone commented on the previous video saying about it:
“At the outset the article seems to assume that the transcendent God of the universe can be understood through intelligence (although later it seems to backtrack on that). The Bible doesn't teach that. In fact, it teaches the opposite. To quote our Lord: “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children."
It's quite funny that this writer is trying to turn the argument I used against Trinitarian interpretation of Scripture and claim they don’t do that at all. They don’t try to understand “the transcendent God of the universe…through intelligence.” What then? How did they come up with this idea of a triune God? Is it plainly stated in Scripture so that little children will get the point?
One respected Trinitarian teacher is Bishop N. T. Wright of the Church of England. He stated this in an October 1, 2019 video titled “Is Jesus God? (N. T. Wright Q&A)”
“So what we find in the very earliest days of Christian faith is that they were telling the story about God as the story about Jesus. And now telling the story of God as the story of the holy spirit. And yes they borrowed all kinds of language. They picked up language from the Bible, from the uses like the “son of God”, and they maybe picked up other things from the surrounding culture --as well as the idea of the wisdom of God, which God used to make the world and which he then sent into the world to rescue and reshape it. And they fused all these together in a mixture of poetry and prayer and theological reflections so that, though it was four centuries later that doctrines like the trinity were hammered out in terms of Greek philosophical concepts, the idea that there was one God who was now made known in and as Jesus and the spirit was there right from the beginning.”
So, four centuries after men who wrote under the influence of the holy spirit, men who penned the inspired word of God, had died…four centuries after God’s own Son had shared divine revelation with us, four centuries later, wise and intellectual scholars “hammered out the Trinity in terms of Greek philosophical concepts.”
So that means that these would have been the “little children” to whom the Father reveals truth. These “little children” would also be the ones who supported Roman Emperor Theodosius’s edict following the council of Constantinople of 381 A.D. that made it punishable by law to reject the Trinity, and which eventually led to people who denied it to be executed.
Alright, alright. I get it.
Now another argument they make is that we cannot understand God, we can’t really understand his nature, so we should just accept the Trinity as fact and not try to explain it. If we try to explain it logically, we are acting like the wise and intellectual ones, rather than the little children who simply trust what their father tells them.
Here’s the problem with that argument. It is putting the cart before the horse.
Let me illustrate it this way.
There are 1.2 billion Hindus on earth. This is the third largest religion on earth. Now, the Hindus also believe in the Trinity, though their version is different from that of Christendom.
There is Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver; and Shiva, the destroyer.
Now, I’m going to use the same argument that Trinitarians have used on me. You cannot understand the Hindu Trinity through intelligence. You just have to accept that there are things we cannot comprehend but must simply accept what is beyond our understanding. Well, that only works if we can prove that the Hindu gods are real; otherwise, that logic falls flat on its face, wouldn’t you agree?
So why should it be different for the Christendom Trinity? You see, first, you have to prove there is a trinity, and then and only then, can you bring out the it’s-a-mystery-beyond-our-understanding argument.
In my previous video, I made several arguments to show up flaws in the Trinity doctrine. As a result, I got quite a number of comments from avid Trinitarians defending their doctrine. What I found interesting is that almost every one of them completely ignored all my arguments and just threw up their standard proof texts. Why would they ignore the arguments I had made? If those arguments were not valid, if there was no truth in them, if my reasoning was flawed, surely, they would have jumped all over them and exposed me for a liar. Instead, they chose to ignore them all and just revert to the proof texts they had been falling back on and have been falling back on for centuries.
However, I did get one fellow who wrote respectfully, which I always appreciate. He also told me that I didn’t really understand the Trinity doctrine, but he was different. When I asked him to explain it to me, he actually responded. I have asked everyone who has raised this objection in the past to explain their understanding of the Trinity to me, and I have never gotten an explanation that varies in any significant way from the standard definition exposed in the previous video which is commonly referred to as the ontological Trinity. Nevertheless, I was hoping that this time would be different.
Trinitarians explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons in one being. To me, the word “person” and the word “being” refer to essentially the same thing. For example, I am a person. I am also a human being. I don’t really see any significant difference between the two words, so I asked him to explain it to me.
This is what he wrote:
A person, as used in theological models of the trinity, is a center of consciousness that possesses self-awareness and an awareness of having an identity that is distinct from others.
Now let’s look at that for a minute. You and I both have a “center of consciousness that possesses self-awareness”. You might recall the famous definition of life: “I think, therefore I am.” So each person of the Trinity has “an awareness of having an identity that is distinct from others.” Is that not the same definition that each of us would give to the word “person”? Of course, a center of consciousness exists within a body. Whether that body is of flesh and blood, or whether it is a spirit, doesn’t really change this definition of “person.” Paul demonstrates that in his letter to the Corinthians:
“So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:42-45 NIV)
This fellow then kindly went on to explain the meaning of “being.”
Being, substance or nature, as used in the context of trinitarian theology, refers to attributes that make God distinct from all other entities. God is omnipotent for example. Created beings are not omnipotent. The Father and Son share the same form of existence, or being. But, they do not share the same person-hood. They are distinct "others".
The argument I get repeatedly—and make no mistake, the entirety of the Trinity doctrine hinges on our accepting this argument—the argument I get repeatedly is that God’s nature is God.
To illustrate this, I’ve had more than one Trinitarian try to explain the Trinity by using the illustration of human nature. It goes like this:
Jack is human. Jill is human. Jack is distinct from Jill, and Jill is distinct from Jack. Each is a distinct person, yet each is human. They share the same nature.
We can agree with that, can’t we? Makes sense. Now a Trinitarian wants us to engage in a little word play. Jack is a noun. Jill is a noun. Sentences are made up of nouns (things) and verbs (actions). Jack is not only a noun, but is a name, so we call that a proper noun. In English, we capitalize proper nouns. In the context of this discussion, there is only one Jack and only one Jill. “Human” is also a noun, but it is not a proper noun, so we don’t capitalize it unless it starts a sentence.
So far, so good.
Jehovah or Yahweh and Jesus or Yeshua are names and are therefore proper nouns. There is only one Yahweh and only one Yeshua in the context of this discussion. So we should be able to substitute them for Jack and Jill and the sentence will still be grammatically correct.
Let’s do that.
Yahweh is human. Yeshua is human. Yahweh is distinct from Yeshua, and Yeshua is distinct from Yahweh. Each is a distinct person, yet each is human. They share the same nature.
While grammatically correct, this sentence is false, because neither Yahweh nor Yeshua is human. What if we substitute God for human? That is what a Trinitarian does to try to make his case.
The problem is that “human” is a noun, but it is not a proper noun. God, on the other hand, is a proper noun which is why we capitalize it.
Here’s what happens when we substitute a proper noun for “human.” We could pick any proper noun, but I’m going to pick Superman, you know the guy in the red cape.
Jack is Superman. Jill is Superman. Jack is distinct from Jill, and Jill is distinct from Jack. Each is a distinct person, yet each is Superman. They share the same nature.
That makes no sense, does it? Superman isn’t the nature of a person, Superman is a being, a person, a conscious entity. Well, in comic books at least, but you get the point.
God is a unique being. One of a kind. God is not his nature, nor his essence, nor his substance. God is who he is, not what he is. Who am I? Eric. What am I, human. You see the difference?
If not, let’s try something else. Jesus told the Samaritan woman that “God is spirit” (John 4:24 NIV). So just as Jack is human, God is spirit.
Now according to Paul, Jesus is also spirit. “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:45 NLT)
Does both God and Christ being spirit mean they are both God? Could we write our sentence to read:
God is spirit. Jesus is spirit. God is distinct from Jesus, and Jesus is distinct from God. Each is a distinct person, yet each is spirit. They share the same nature.
But what about the angels? Angels are also spirit: “In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”” (Hebrews 1:7)
But there is a bigger problem with the definition of “being” which trinitarians accept. Let’s look at it again:
Being, substance or nature, as used in the context of trinitarian theology, refers to attributes that make God distinct from all other entities. God is omnipotent for example. Created beings are not omnipotent. The Father and Son share the same form of existence, or being. But, they do not share the same person-hood. They are distinct "others".
So “being” refers to the attributes that make God distinct from all other entities. Okay, let’s accept that to see where it takes us.
One of the attributes that the writer states makes God distinct from all other entities is omnipotence. God is all powerful, almighty, which is why he is often distinguish him from other gods as “God Almighty.” Yahweh is God Almighty.
“When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.” (Genesis 17:1 NIV)
There are numerous places in Scripture where YHWH or Yahweh is called Almighty. Yeshua, or Jesus, on the other hand is never called Almighty. As the Lamb, he is depicted as separate from God Almighty.
“I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.” (Revelation 21:22 NIV)
As a resurrected life-giving spirit, Jesus proclaimed that “all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Matthew 28:18 NIV)
The Almighty gives authority to others. No one gives the Almighty any authority.
I could go on, but the point is that based on the definition given that “being…refers to attributes that make God distinct from other entities,” Jesus or Yeshua cannot be God because Jesus is not omnipotent. For that matter, neither is he all knowing. That’s two attributes of God’s being that Jesus doesn’t share.
Now back to my original question. There is something fundamentally wrong with the title of this video. Could you spot it? I’ll refresh your memory, the title of this video is: “God’s Nature: How Can God Be Three Distinct Persons, But Just One Being?”
The problem is with the first two words: “God’s Nature.”
According to Merriam-Webster, nature is defined as:
1 : the physical world and everything in it.
“It is one of the most beautiful creatures found in nature.”
2 : natural scenery or surroundings.
“We took a hike to enjoy nature.”
3 : the basic character of a person or thing.
“Scientists studied the nature of the new substance.”
Everything about the word speaks of the creation, not the creator. I am human. That is my nature. I depend on the substances from which I am made to live. My body is made up of various elements, such as hydrogen and oxygen that make up the water molecules that comprise 60% of my being. In fact, 99% of my body is made from only four elements, hydrogen, oxygen, carbon and nitrogen. And who made those elements? God, of course. Before God created the universe, those elements didn’t exist. That is my substance. That is what I depend on for life. So what elements make up God’s body? What is God made of? What is his substance? And who made his substance? Does he depend on his substance for life like I do? If so, then how can he be Almighty?
These questions are mind boggling, because we are being asked to answer things so far out of our realm of reality that we have no framework to understand them. For us, everything is made of something, so everything is dependent upon the substance from which it is made. How can Almighty God not be made of a substance, but if he is made of a substance, how can he be Almighty God?
We use words like “nature” and “substance” to speak of God’s characteristics, but we must be careful not to go beyond that. Now if we are dealing with characteristics, and not substance when speaking of God’s nature, consider this: You and I were made in the image of God.
“When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.” (Genesis 5:1, 2 ESV)
Thus we are able to show love, exercise justice, act with wisdom, and exert power. You could say that we share with God the third definition of “nature” which is: ”the basic character of a person or thing.”
So in a very, very relative sense, we share God’s nature, but that isn’t the point that Trinitarians depend on when promoting their theory. They want us to believe that Jesus is God in every way.
But wait a minute! Didn’t we just read that “God is spirit” (John 4:24 NIV)? Isn’t that his nature?
Well, if we accept that what Jesus was telling the Samaritan women concerned the nature of God, then Jesus must also be God because he is a “life-giving spirit” according to 1 Corinthians 15:45. But that really creates a problem for Trinitarians because John tells us:
“Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2 NIV)
If Jesus is God, and we shall be like him, sharing his nature, then we will also be God. I’m being silly on purpose. I want to highlight that we need to stop thinking in physical and fleshly terms and start seeing things with the mind of God. How does God share his mind with us? How can a being whose existence and intelligence is infinite possibly explain himself in terms our very finite human minds can relate to? He does so much like a father explains complicated things to a very young child. He uses terms that fall within the knowledge and experience of the child. In that light, consider what Paul tells the Corinthians:
But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit, for The Spirit searches into everything, even the depths of God. And who is the man who knows what is in a man except only the spirit of the man that is in him? So also a man does not know what is in God, only The Spirit of God knows. But we have not received The Spirit of the world, but The Spirit that is from God, that we may know the gift that has been given to us from God. But those things we speak are not in the teaching of the words of the wisdom of men, but in the teaching of The Spirit, and we compare spiritual things to the spiritual.
For a selfish man does not receive spiritual things, for they are madness to him, and he is not able to know, for they are known by The Spirit. But a spiritual man judges everything and he is not judged by any man. For who has known the mind of THE LORD JEHOVAH that he may teach him? But we do have the mind of The Messiah. (1 Corinthians 2:10-16 Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
Paul is quoting form Isaiah 40:13 where the divine name, YHWH, does appear. Who hath directed the Spirit of Jehovah, or being his counsellor hath taught him? (Isaiah 40:13 ASV)
From this we first learn that to understand the things of the mind of God which is beyond us, we must get to know the mind of Christ which we can know. Again, if Christ is God, then that makes no sense.
Now look how spirit is used in these few verses. We have:
- The Spirit searches into everything, even the depths of God.
- The spirit of the man.
- The Spirit of God.
- The Spirit that is from God.
- The Spirit of the world.
- Spiritual things to the spiritual.
In our culture, we have come to view “spirit” as an incorporeal being. People believe that when they die, their consciousness continues alive, but without a body. They believe the spirit of God is actually God, a distinct person. But then what is the spirit of the world? And if the spirit of the world isn’t a living being, what is their basis for declaring that the spirit of a man is a living being?
We are likely being confused by cultural bias. What was Jesus actually saying in Greek when he told the Samaritan woman that “God is spirit”? Was he referring to God’s makeup, nature, or substance? The word translated “spirit” in Greek is pneuma, which means “wind or breath.” How would a Greek of ancient times define something he couldn’t see nor fully understand, but which could still affect him? He couldn’t see the wind, but he could feel it and see it move things. He couldn’t see his own breath, but he could use it to blow out candles or stoke a fire. So the Greeks used pneuma (breath or wind) to refer to things unseen which could still affect humans. What about God? What was God to them? God was pneuma. What are angels? Angels are pneuma. What is the life force that can depart the body, leaving it an inert husk: pneuma.
Additionally, our desires and impulses cannot be seen, yet they move us and motivate us. So essentially, the word for breath or wind in Greek, pneuma, became a catchall for anything that cannot be seen, but which moves, affects, or influences us.
We call angels, spirits, but we do not know what they are made of, what substance comprises their spiritual bodies. What we do know is that they exist in time and have temporal limitations which is how one of them got held up for three weeks by another spirit or pneuma on his way to Daniel. (Daniel 10:13) When Jesus blew on his disciples and said, “Receive holy spirit,” what he actually said was, “Receive holy breath.” PNEUMA. When Jesus died, he “yielded up his spirit,” he literally, “yielded up his breath.”
Almighty God, creator of all things, source of all power, cannot be subject to anything. But Jesus is not God. He has a nature, because he is a created being. The firstborn of all creation and the only begotten God. We don’t know what Jesus is. We don’t know what it means to be a life-giving pneuma. But what we do know is that whatever he is, we will also be, as children of God, because we will be like him. Again, we read:
“Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2 NIV)
Jesus has a nature, a substance, and essence. Just as we all have those things as physical creatures and we’ll all have a different nature, substance, or essence as spirit beings making up the children of God in the first resurrection, but Yahweh, Jehovah, the Father, Almighty God is unique and beyond definition.
I know that Trinitarians will hold up a number of verses in an attempt to contradict what I’ve laid out before you in this video. In my former faith, I was misled by proof texts for many decades, so I’m quite alert to their misuse. I’ve learned to recognize them for what they are. The idea is to take a verse that can be made to support one’s agenda, but which can also have a different meaning—in other words, an ambiguous text. Then you promote your meaning and hope the listener doesn’t see the alternate meaning. How do you know which meaning is the right one when a text is ambiguous? You can’t, if you restrict yourself to considering only that text. You have to go outside to verses which are not ambiguous to resolve the ambiguity.
In the next video, God willing, we will examine the proof texts of John 10:30; 12:41 and Isaiah 6:1-3; 44:24.
Until then, I would like to thank you for your time. And to all those helping out to support this channel and keep us broadcasting, a very heartfelt thanks.
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Comment by Ralf on 2022-05-11 21:54:39
I enjoy these discussions, and they serve to make me study. I appreciate it.
I do agree that Satan is in the business of keeping people separated from the one true God and salvation.
I agree that many are fooled into thinking they are in a right relationship with God when in fact they aren't. The fact than any of us are in a right relationship with God is because God initiates it. He calls us to repentance, and He gives the faith we need. Intelligent or cognitively impaired, we are worthy of absolutely no credit at all for being saved.
I don't know why you believe it's futile attempting to change a trinitarian's mind, especially if the Holy Spirit is involved. If God is in favor of His truth spreading, it needs to be spread to those who don't have it. So if trinitarians don't have God's truth, and you do, they need you to share it with them and the Holy Spirit is going to honor your efforts. If you have found it futile, you may want to consider why? You believe trinitarianism is a tool of Satan, and likely agree with me that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's teachings are of Satan. Apparently, significant numbers are able to leave the false teachings of Watchtower. I'd think Trinitarians would be just as capable of leaving Satanic teaching. Certainly, there are lots of people who leave the different types of Christianity for agnosticism or atheism. I've even heard of some who went to Eastern Religions, though it's doubtful they were true believers when you hear more of their stories.
Trinitarians have been around a long time. I'm not thinking you identify as an Arian. I'm thinking you identify as Eric, and perhaps your theology is unique to you and possibly a number of people who are listening closely to you via the internet.
Are you and your followers the only possessors of saving truth?
If we agree that the bible is God's word and is without error, it really doesn't matter what N T Wright has to say unless of course it is confirmed by scripture. N T Wright only speaks for himself, I think. He may have a position of authority in a church body, possibly the Church of England, but if so, he would actually be under the authority of his church's doctrines. Sadly these days, church doctrine doesn't often matter. Many churches don't enforce their doctrines and rather are just letting the culture decide what's acceptable and what's not.
Interestingly, N T Wright doesn't share our view on scripture, but tweeks the understanding of God's word as innerant. He is approaching the study of the bible in a way that allows men to decide if it's true, instead of the bible as truth used to decide if men are truthful to the bible in their preaching and teaching.
The only reason that ecumenical councils had to meet to codify doctrine was because of false teaching entering the church, just as the Apostle Peter said would happen. Trinitarian belief already existed, and the word of God remains the standard and provides the evidence for any doctrine, anyway. In Theodosius' day, after he accepted the Nicene Creed, he persecuted Arians and Monichaeans. Certainly an evil act, and not Christian at all. But his crimes against humanity and the wrongdoings of any Christian or Christian group don't change God's truth, found only in the bible.
I think the difference between the validity of the Hindu trinity and the biblical Trinity is the text they are derived from. Do you find Hindu scriptures to be truth? Do you find the Bible to be true? Since you aren't a Hindu, I assume you don't find God in Hindu holy books. Since you use the bible to make your point concerning what we can know of God's nature, I assume you find the bible to be true, especially since we can only know there is a creator from the evidence in creation. The Trinitarians who throw the same old proof texts at you do so because they believe the bible is God's word and true and the only way we can know God. Seems to me, that's what you've been saying.
So there is only one God. That God is Almighty. Does putting the word "Almighty" with the word God make a distinction that proves Jesus is only "a" God and not "Almighty" God? Is there really a difference between saying Almighty God and just God or Lord God? The fact that I have read that argument being made on jw.org makes me even more suspect that it's not valid.
In the New American Standard Bible, the word "God" appears 4,192 times. If "Almighty" is combined with "God" in either order in a search, it appears 40 times. In Genesis (35:11, 49:25), Exodus (6:3), Numbers (24:16) Job (5: 17, 6:4, 8:3-5, 11:7, 13:3, 15:25, and I will stop here rather than reference all the occasions), God and/or LORD is equated with God Almighty, indicating that both are identifying the one true God. Is it Jesus who is being identified every time that "God" alone occurs? I don't think either of us think that. I don't see a good argument in scripture for Almighty God or God Almighty making a distinction between an Almighty God and a lesser God.
I actually think the bible shows that Jesus is Almighty God. I don't believe Philipians 2:5-7 says that Jesus laid aside His divinity and became only a man. It says Jesus, who is God set aside His perogative to use that divine ability and took upon Himself a human nature in addition to His divinity, and even then, He only did so only while accomplishing His task as Messiah. I don't think God, even if "a" lesser God, can stop being God. The Greek word for God is the same one used for God everywhere else in the New testament. There is no qualifier with the word here in Philippians to indicate that the pre-incarnate Jesus is some sort of lesser God. We have the rest of the New Testament to help us understand. As a man, Jesus said He and the Father are one. Thomas said, "my Lord and my God" and Jesus didn't find that to be blasphemy. There are other verses that say Jesus is God (Col 2:9, Heb 1:8-9, John 1:1, Titus 2:13, John 10:30).
So, without any reason to believe that "Almighty" makes a distinction between YHWH and Jesus, I find that the following (a partial list of scriptural evidence) is evidence for why Jesus is Almighty God.
Jesus and YHWH are both identified as God, share God's throne, and are our savior. Isa. 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Jesus is all these things including Mighty God. Ps. 93:2 "Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting." And, Isa. 40:28 "Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting." YHWH is speaking here of the Messiah and says He and His throne are from everlasting (eternal). The throne of God is pictured in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus and Jesus shares that throne with the Father. Titus 2:13; "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," Jesus is clearly identified as God as well as savior. Luke 2:11; "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." Jesus is both Messiah and the Lord. He is not a lord, but the Lord.
Both YHWH and Jesus are our savior. Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Elsewhere in scripture, YHWH is identified as savior. Jesus is that savior. Isa. 43:11; "I, I am the Lord(YHWH), and besides me there is no savior." Hosea 13:4 But I am the Lord(YHWH) your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior." Psalm 18, "1 . . . The Lord(YHWH) is my rock and my fortress and my savior, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge;"
YHWH and Jesus are the Good Shepherd. 1 Pet. 5:4; "And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory." 1 Pet 2:24, "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." Both Jesus and YHWH are our shepherd. Ps. 23:1 "The Lord(YHWH) is my shepherd; I shall not want." Ecc. 12:11 "The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd." Gen. 48:15 "And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,"
God obtained His Church by His own blood. Acts 20:28 "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood." Instruction given here to early pastors/elders/overseers to care for God's church which he(God) obtained with His(Jesus) own blood.
We pray to the Father, but also to the ascended and glorified Jesus. To whom are we to pray? During His earthly ministry as Messiah, Jesus lived out and modeled for us a perfect human life. As such, Jesus in Luke 11:2 instructs to pray to the Father and He prays to the Father in Luke 22:42. In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prays to His Father. But in Acts 7:59, "And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'” Stephen is praying to Jesus. Paul in 1 Cor 1:2 instructs praying to Jesus, " . . . call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:" After His earthly ministry, Jesus resumed His position of glory as God and is now the focus of our prayers.
Jesus resurrected Himself, and God resurrected Jesus. John 2:19 "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.'” Jesus says in the following verses that He will raise Himself. John 10:17 "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus as a man received the authority to raise Himself from the dead. The receiving of authority as documented in the New Testament does on no occasion indicate the giving of a power that the person receiving authority doesn't already possess naturally. The Father loves Jesus because of what He says He does in taking up His life. Power over life and death belongs only to God and Jesus has that ability. But as a man, Messiah, acting on our behalf and as our model, Jesus is subordinate to the Father and acts in obedience as we should. John 11: 25 "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” Jesus IS the resurrection, not just a guy who lived a perfect life and was resurrected by the Father. God(Theos) raises Jesus from the dead, and Jesus says He raises Himself from the dead. The scriptures are either confused or Jesus and God are in unison and both truthfully able to claim to raise Jesus from the dead. Gal. 1:1; "Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—" Acts 2:24 "God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it." Acts 10:40 "but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear," Rom. 10:9 "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Both YHWH and Jesus are THE rock. Isa. 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.” YHWH here identifies Himself as THE Rock/God, and there is no other. YHWH says He will become stumbling rock for Israel. Isaiah 8:14 "And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." Isaiah 26:4 "Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord God is an everlasting rock." Ps.18:31 "For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?" YHWH Adonai is the everlasting rock. Jesus is that same rock. 1 Cor. 10:4 "and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ." Rom. 9:32 "Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” 1 Pet. 2:7 "So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do."
YHWH shares His glory with no-one, yet Jesus receives glory. YHWH says He gives His glory to no others. Isa. 42:8 "I am the Lord(YHWEH); that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols." Isaiah 48:11 "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another." And YHWH is described in Ps. 24:7 "Lift up your heads, O gates! And be lifted up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. 8 Who is this King of glory? The Lord, strong and mighty, the Lord, mighty in battle! 9 Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory!" Jesus is also Lord of glory, I Cor. 2:8 "None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Jesus now possesses the same glory as the Father, a glory YHWH reserves only for Himself. Matt. 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done." Heb. 1:3 "He(Jesus) is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Rev. 5:12 "saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb(Jesus) who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Jesus, after laying aside His pre-incarnate glory, a glory He shared with the Father, the glory of the most high, receives it back upon returning to the heaven.
Jesus and YHWH create. Jesus was a part of all of creation. That excludes Him from being created. John 1:3 "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." Col. 1:16 "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." The writer of Hebrews is speaking of Jesus when he says (Heb 1:10), “You, Lord(Kurios), laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;" Isa. 44:24 "Thus says the Lord(YHWH), your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord(YHWH), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself", Gen. 1:1 "In the beginning, God(Adonai) created the heavens and the earth." YHWH says He spread out the earth by Himself, while all things were created by and through and for Jesus. Jesus created for Himself a universe into which He knew He would come as savior.
Every knee will bow to both YHWH and Jesus. "Phil. 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Isa. 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me(YHWH) every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance. Rom. 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
YHWH and Jesus receive the worship reserved for only God. Heb. 1:6 "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him(Jesus).” Matt. 28:17 "And when they saw him they worshiped him(Jesus), but some doubted." Exod. 20:5 "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord(YHWH) your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me," Deut. 5:9 "You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," Mt. 4:10 "Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”
But if there is indeed significance in the identifier "Almighty", in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Lord God Almighty in 1:8 is the Alpha and the Omega while in 22:12-21 it's clearly Jesus and He identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega. In 4:8, the Lord God Almighty is the one who was, and is, and is to come. Jesus is who as a man was, and is, and is to come. In 11:17, the Lord God Almighty is the One who is and who was and has begun to reign. Did Jehovah God ever not reign? Then who is the Lord God Almighty who is now beginning His reign? Jesus starts reigning upon His ascension to heaven after His resurrection and regaining the glory which was His prior to becoming a man. In 19:15, a sharp sword comes from the mouth of God Almighty. In 1:12-18 it's clearly Jesus who is being described. He is the son of man, who was dead and is alive again forevermore, and out of His mouth comes a sharp two-edged sword. In 21:22-23, God Almighty and Jesus the Lamb are equated as the Temple in heaven and Jesus as the lamp is the glory of God. This appears to me as another equating of Jesus with God Almighty. Scripture is careful to keep Jehovah God and Jesus separated. But they share divine attributes, and both deserve the praise and glory and obedience that belongs to God Almighty alone.
Martin Luther, when facing the wrath of the powerful institutional church demanding that he recant what he believed, is credited as saying, “Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason (I do not accept the authority of popes and councils because they have contradicted each other), my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. So help me God. Amen.” Without the prompting of the Holy Spirit, I don't think I would be able to accept the authority of scripture and believe that God Almighty is Father, Jesus, and Spirit. It isn't reasonable. No one would.
Ralf
Comment by hirdy46 on 2022-04-26 08:12:55
That was one of the reasonings that originally attracted me to JW - No Trinity teaching
A lot focus is given, in Trinity teaching churches, to an Almighty God
However it has become apparent to me that the Bible develops within our hearts a Christian spirit that connects with you with the Father
We are spirit when we are released from the flesh
We can only go by the Bible about the spiritual realm but It is clear to me as it would be a child that the Trinity teaching is the work of the Devil
Trinitarian’s - they are earthly not spiritual
You can teach a spiritual person about the earthly realms
But an earthly man cannot comprehend the spiritual
I often ask Our Father to help me then I’ll walk in a room and hear the answer ( usually some documentary on tv, lol ) or I’ll look in my Bible and it will touch my heart as to what I should do
Our spirit speaks with the Spirit through Jesus to Almighty God
???Reply by Ralf on 2022-05-13 01:56:40
Jesus certainly does reveal the Father to us. We are unable to go the the Father (I'd say that means eternity with the Father after we live this life) except by the way Jesus has made through His perfect life and incomprehensible suffering and death on our behalf.
I can attest to prayers being answered as I study the bible, that confirm the Trinity doctrine. I can't and won't try to attribute any reason for why your sense of being led by God in response to your prayer is different than mine concerning the Trinity.
But I will whole heartedly agree with you that biblical truth does grow in our hearts and minds with ongoing study and prayer humbly pursued over a lifetime. I have not changed my beliefs about the Trinity, but I have changed on other biblical issues and had to change churches/denominations as a result.
I think our lives as Christians are lives of ongoing self assessment and repentance, and growing in the faith and obedience to God's law.
Comment by dokterrudi on 2022-04-26 12:27:10
All depends of your definition of 'a god' : if 'a god' means a spirit that lives for ever, then there are many gods: Jehovah, Jesus Christ, the angels, the devils ( for the time they are not destroyed yet)
Nowhere in the bible you can find that there is only 1 God : the bible says that there is only 1 ALMIGHTY God, and that only he can be worshipped. All the gods in heaven are distinctive persons, and the 'unity' is that they all have the same goal and they all obey to the most important God who is above all other gods : almighty Jehovah.
Comment by Fani on 2022-04-27 03:49:48
Tu dis : "L'idée est de prendre un verset qui peut servir de support à son agenda, mais qui peut aussi avoir un sens différent, c'est-à-dire un texte ambigu…"
C'est très vrai. Je me suis rendu compte que les versets cités par les trinitaires peuvent avoir un double sens où sont difficiles à comprendre.
Par contre, les versets tout simples, clairs, explicites sont passés sous silence comme s'ils n'existaient pas !
"Il faut sortir vers des versets qui ne sont pas ambigus pour résoudre l'ambiguïté."
Tellement vrai !
YHWH "donne" à Christ tout pouvoir. Mathieu 28 : 18
Qu'est-ce que Christ a "donné" à Dieu qu'il n'avait pas ?
Si Dieu donne à Christ, c'est qu'il lui manquait quelque chose que seul son Père avait.
Celui qui reçoit dépend de celui qui donne.
Il n'y a qu'un seul sens : Dieu donne à Christ - Christ n'a jamais rien donné à DIEU comme si DIEU était incomplet.
Ils n'ont donc pas la même puissance.
”Le vainqueur sera habillé de vêtements blancs; je n'effacerai pas son nom du livre de vie et je le reconnaîtrai devant MON PERE et devant ses anges”. (Apocalypse 3.5)
(Bible d'étude Segond 21).
"Du vainqueur je ferai un pilier dans le temple de MON DIEU, et il n'en sortira plus jamais. J'écrirai sur lui le NOM DE MON DIEU, celui de la ville de mon Dieu, la nouvelle Jérusalem qui descend du ciel, d'auprès de MON DIEU, ainsi que mon nom nouveau."
(Apocalypse 3.12)
Même une fois ressuscité, Christ parle de DIEU comme de SON DIEU ET SON PERE.
Où Christ est qualifié de Dieu DE YHWH (Jehovah/Yawheh)
YHWH est le Dieu de Christ, selon ses propres termes.
Christ n'est pas le Dieu de YHWH.
Où Christ est qualifié de PERE de DIEU ? Où Dieu est qualifié de Fils de Christ ?
Ce n'est que dans un seul sens.
Être père et être fils n'ont donc plus de significations ?
Depuis que le monde est monde, en fait depuis Adam, être père et être fils a toujours eu une seule signification connue de tous.
Le Père donne naissance ou engendre le fils. La vie du Fils dépend du Père.
La vie du Père Céleste ne dépend de personne, même pas du Fils.
Donc Dieu et Christ auraient utilisé des mots basiques (père/fils) connus et largement utilisés par l'humanité entière depuis sa création et qui perdent tout à coup leur sens et ainsi nous tromperaient ?
(Ça me fait penser au sens du mot "génération" qui tout à coup, pour les besoins de la cause de certains, perd tout son sens étymologique).
Mon raisonnement va sûrement paraître simpliste mais moi il me suffit.
Pourquoi inventer un concept humain pour enfermer Dieu dans une doctrine qu'en finalité nous ne pouvons pas comprendre ? N'est ce pas prétentieux de vouloir donner une définition humaine à Dieu ?
Merci beaucoup pour ton labeur.Reply by Frankie on 2022-04-29 15:36:59
Thank you Nicole for your comment, very good.
Comment by PierrotSud on 2022-05-03 14:03:12
For me the trinity is not a biblical truth.
One might say to me that "Obviously you were raised a Jehovah's Witness, so you didn't have the truth. The real teachings were hidden from you."
Only, how could a truth from our Father, the Almighty, cause so many deaths?
Why would God cause so much suffering to teach this truth?
Jesus said :
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32 KGV).
Although Jesus was referring here to his teaching that would free the Jewish people from the weight of the teachings of the Pharisees, Jesus was also indicating that his teaching was a teaching of love, without repression or coercion.
Has the Trinity liberated people in history? I don't think so.
On the contrary.
I am not going to enter into intellectual concepts that would make me understand that I am wrong and that I do not understand the nature of God, that God and Jesus are the same (John 1:18, John declares that "he is the only son, in the bosom of the Father"), that the Holy Spirit is the same as both, although he has no name, that he needs Jesus or Jehovah to manifest himself (Acts 1:8, John 20:22), etc.
What were the apostles (Peter, John, Paul, etc.)? Wise men, intellectuals?
How could God and Jesus use them when the truth could not be revealed to them?
Bishop NT Wright of the Church of England says that "doctrines like the Trinity were hammered out in terms of Greek philosophical concepts".
They are indeed those concepts that some Wise Men or Intellectuals have fabricated to make this fabrication, modifying the person of God, who is God.
If I give worship to my Father and to his Son, some people say that "You are a Polytheist".
Okay, but didn't the Apostles do "Proskuneo" to both?
As far as I am concerned, history is enough to convince me that this doctrine cannot come from God.
PierrotReply by Ralf on 2022-05-13 01:43:49
You seem to be attributing the sinful behavior of sinners to a deficiency in the teaching of God's word. I am hearing, and correct me if I am wrong, the question of why an Almighty and perfectly good God allows evil. Whether it's the trinity, or the person of Jesus, or any contentious bible topic, sinners will be sinners. That's why we need a savior. God's truth doesn't call for condone evil, and isn't falsified by the evil done by sinners in the name of God's truth.
N. T. Wright has his opinions and beliefs. There are many more bible scholars who don't believe Jesus was even killed by the Romans, or that there ever was a flood or virgin birth or any number of bible teachings.
I think we all struggle with the problem of "Christians" not behaving like Christians. I worry a lot about my own behavior reflecting badly on God's name. But our eternal destiny thankfully doesn't depend on human history or a bible teacher. It's based on the biblical truth God reveals to us.
This is just my opinion, but when we stand before God pleading our case, I think it should be based on our earnest striving for God's truth and not based on what others said or did.Reply by PierrotSud on 2022-05-24 02:54:52
I don’t quite agree with your answer.
The truth has been falsified many times in the history of religions.
There is only one truth, like a currency, but many forgers have created a false currency that is very difficult to perceive from the real one.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, we said we had the truth, but it turned out to be a false truth.
As far as the Trinity is concerned, for me it is a false truth, a false currency that nevertheless uses the same characters, the same language as the real currency.
History is very important to know the origins of an affirmation, of a belief. While checking if the belief corresponds to the real money, it is necessary at the same time to look for where this truth comes from. This is very important.
It is like when a counterfeit bill is issued, a detective will try to find the source and thus find the one who prints these counterfeit bills.
We who love the truth, at the same time as learning and being taught by the Holy Spirit, have the duty to denounce false truths and to help those who do not perceive them.
This reminds me of a biblical episode, when Phineas caught an Israelite and a Madianite woman fornicating. What did he do?
He loved the truth, he loved his God. He knew that God saw everything and was capable of everything. Did he turn back thinking “Jehovah sees all, I trust him, he will answer”?
No.
Numbers 25:-13 (NWT)
7When Phinʹe·has the son of El·e·aʹzar the son of Aaron the priest saw it, he immediately rose up from the midst of the assembly and took a spear in his hand.8Then he went after the man of Israel into the tent and pierced both of them through, the man of Israel and the woman through her genital parts. At that the scourge on the Israelites was halted.9Those who died from the scourge amounted to 24,000.10Then Jehovah said to Moses:11“Phinʹe·has the son of El·e·aʹzar the son of Aaron the priest has turned my wrath away from the people of Israel because he tolerated no rivalry at all toward me among them. So I have not exterminated the Israelites in my insistence on exclusive devotion.12Therefore, say, ‘I am giving him my covenant of peace.13And it will serve as the covenant of a lasting priesthood for him and his offspring after him, because he tolerated no rivalry toward his God and he made atonement for the people of Israel.’”
In verse 12, Jehovah declares that he requires exclusive attachment.
Of course we are not going to fight on every forum and preach, because we are Christians and we carry the love of Christ.
We love our neighbors, and we must even love our enemies
An Other Example.
Or like the apostle Paul, when he discerned the bad behavior of the apostle Peter.
Peter was confirming a false truth in his behavior. He was not necessarily doing it voluntarily. But many Christians could have understood that only the Jews were blessed in the Christian assembly and that by obeying the Jewish laws they could also be blessed.
Galatians 2:14 (NWT)
14 But when I saw they were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news, I said to Ceʹphas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”
What would have happened if he had not reacted?
What truth would come out if he did nothing?
So I conclude that we must love the truth, but we must act to make it known and defend it when it is manipulated.
Comment by ZbigniewJan on 2022-05-22 15:32:38
Thanks, Eric, for taking up the Trinity discussion. We Christians are to worship God in spirit and in truth. God's spirit helps us discover what the truth is. Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus is the truth. From the very beginning of his rebellion, Satan has been working to destroy this truth, to destroy Jesus. The doctrine of the trinity is a way to destroy Jesus' position. In 2 Cor. 4: 4,5, the Apostle Paul writes: "in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, that they may not see clearly the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we proclaim not ourselves, but Jesus Christ the Lord and ourselves
we present you as your servants through Jesus. "
How does Satan do it? It creates various combinations of the image of God, the God who is the cause of everything. Satan is not questioning the position of God the Father. Its purpose is to crush the position, achievements, and glory of Christ. One method: he turns Jesus into YHWH. What does it achieve with this conversion? The glory of Christ, the only-begotten son of the Father, vanishes. Jehovah's Witnesses have made this conversion in their Bible translation at least 40 times. The most spectacular conversion is Rom. 14: 8-9 (NW), for whether we live, we live for Jehovah, or we die, we die for Jehovah. So whether we live or die, we belong to Jehovah. For that is why Christ died and came alive to be Lord of both the dead and the living. "The Lord Jesus becomes YHWH, even though the context, verse 9, says that this Lord is Jesus Christ. Thus Christ's position disappeared.
Another method: The Sociians created science: Christ appeared at the time of Mary's birth on Earth. The Logos was not a divine only-begotten son, only the thoughts of YHWH. Thus the position of the Logos by whom everything was created disappeared.
Another example: Jesus is the alpha and the omega, so becomes YHWH, effect, Christ's position disappears.
In Catholicism, Jesus becomes God almighty, God the Father, the effect, he replaces his Father. The position of the only-begotten son, therefore, as a ransom for the sins of the whole world, disappears.
Evangelicals argue that the Holy Spirit is the person to whom one should pray. Effect, Christ is robbed of glory.
For me, the doctrine of the Trinity is a litmus test that shows me who is wheat and who is weed. I agree with Eric that you cannot blur the truth about Christ because that truth is Christ. In the Gospel John 1: 1,2 we learn that the God Logos was with God.
If I have a son, this son lives with me. I am his father and he is my son. As long as I'm alive, I'm his father. The son will never become me, no matter what our relationship is.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-05-23 10:06:02
Beautifully explained. This is my contention, ZbigniewJan. Trinitarism is just another ploy of Satan to obscure the person of the father from us and inhibit a proper relationship with him.
Comment by PierrotSud on 2022-05-23 12:23:04
I don't quite agree with your answer.
The truth has been falsified many times in the history of religions.
There is only one truth, like a currency, but many forgers have created a false currency that is very difficult to perceive from the real one.
Jehovah's Witnesses, we said we had the truth, but it turned out to be a false truth.
As far as the Trinity is concerned, for me it is a false truth, a false currency that nevertheless uses the same characters, the same language as the real currency.
History is very important to know the origins of an affirmation, of a belief. While checking if the belief corresponds to the real money, it is necessary at the same time to look for where this truth comes from. This is very important.
It is like when a counterfeit bill is issued, a detective will try to find the source and thus find the one who prints these counterfeit bills.
We who love the truth, at the same time as learning and being taught by the Holy Spirit, have the duty to denounce false truths and to help those who do not perceive them.
This reminds me of a biblical episode, when Phineas caught an Israelite and a Madianite woman fornicating. What did he do?
He loved the truth, he loved his God. He knew that God saw everything and was capable of everything. Did he turn back thinking "Jehovah sees all, I trust him, he will answer"?
No.
Numbers 25:-13 (NWT)
7When Phinʹe·has the son of El·e·aʹzar the son of Aaron the priest saw it, he immediately rose up from the midst of the assembly and took a spear in his hand.8Then he went after the man of Israel into the tent and pierced both of them through, the man of Israel and the woman through her genital parts. At that the scourge on the Israelites was halted.9Those who died from the scourge amounted to 24,000.10Then Jehovah said to Moses:11“Phinʹe·has the son of El·e·aʹzar the son of Aaron the priest has turned my wrath away from the people of Israel because he tolerated no rivalry at all toward me among them. So I have not exterminated the Israelites in my insistence on exclusive devotion.12Therefore, say, ‘I am giving him my covenant of peace.13And it will serve as the covenant of a lasting priesthood for him and his offspring after him, because he tolerated no rivalry toward his God and he made atonement for the people of Israel.’”
In verse 12, Jehovah declares that he requires exclusive attachment.
Of course we are not going to fight on every forum and preach, because we are Christians and we carry the love of Christ.
We love our neighbors, and we must even love our enemies
An Other Example.
Or like the apostle Paul, when he discerned the bad behavior of the apostle Peter.
Peter was confirming a false truth in his behavior. He was not necessarily doing it voluntarily. But many Christians could have understood that only the Jews were blessed in the Christian assembly and that by obeying the Jewish laws they could also be blessed.
Galatians 2:14 (NWT)
14 But when I saw they were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news, I said to Ceʹphas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”
What would have happened if he had not reacted?
What truth would come out if he did nothing?
So I conclude that we must love the truth, but we must act to make it known and defend it when it is manipulated.
Comment by AReader on 2022-06-09 13:47:00
David Hocking's proper treatment of the Trinity is a must read.
Here it is: The Trinity of God by David Hocking (blueletterbible.org)Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2022-06-10 09:21:36
My next video will be addressing the first texts this fellow uses. I thank you for the reference as it is good to see who Trinitarian reasoning works. For instance, they overlook all the scriptures where God--not the Father, but God--is identified as a being, and as distinct from the Son and Holy Spirit, which just doesn't fit with the idea that they are all one. Yet, the Father is never viewed nor written about as distinct from God. Yes, let us overlook all of that and base our theology on the fact that "name" is always in the singular, and of course name, cannot represent anything but the person of God. It cannot represent the authority of God, authority which he can give to others, like the Son. (See Matthew 28:18) And the name cannot be given to another, yet at John 17:6-14 we find that the Father--who is interchangeably referred to as God, something you do not find for the Son nor the HS--has given his name to the Son. Are we to call the Son, YHWH? Is that what it means?
By the way, any discussion that bases its logic on the King James Version is off to a poor start scholarly. For one thing, LORD is a substitution for YHWH, which means the argument starts out clouding the issue by using an interchangeable term that even humans can employ.
A characteristic of trinitarian argumentation is nicely exhibited in this treatise. Notice how over-illustrated his discussion is, even before he tries to prove his point. Illustrations, of course, prove nothing. They can be used to explain a truth that is already established, but if your reasoning is very tenuous and reaching, they can be used to cloud the issue and give your argument the patina of credibility. They help you to distract the reader from the holes in your argument, the essence of fallacious reasoning against which we must be on guard.