To set the scene, Daniel has just finished the extensive prophecy of the Kings of the North and South. The final verses of the prophecy in Daniel 11:44, 45 and 12:1-3 present the only part yet to be fulfilled in our day. The opening verses of chapter 12 describe Michael, the great prince, standing up in behalf of his people during a time of distress which we understand to be the Great Tribulation. It then appears that Daniel has an extension to this vision involving two men, one on either side of a stream, who are conversing with a third man. The third man is described as being above the waters. Daniel 12:6 describes one of the two men asking this third man, “How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?”
Given that Daniel has just described an astonishing sequence of events culminating in the greatest tribulation of human history, one can safely assume that these are the wonderful things this angel is asking about. The angel wants to know when it will all end. (1 Peter 1:12)
In answer, the man above the waters replies, ““It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.” (Dan. 12:7)
What would you take that to mean?
Without getting into speculation, it would be safe to say that there will be a time period of 3 ½ times—whether symbolic or literal—after which the power of the holy people is dashed to pieces. Now the phrase, “dashed to pieces” or variations thereof, is used 23 times in the Hebrew Scriptures and always refers to killing or destroying someone or something. (You can verify this yourself using the “search” feature of the WT Library using “dash*”—sans quotes—to search by.) So the power of the holy people is done away with, killed, or destroyed. After that happens, then all the things that Daniel has just foretold will have reached their conclusion.
Looking at the context, it is clear that the wonderful things the Angel referred to include, as their final part, Michael standing up during a time of distress such as has never occurred before. Jesus used that same phraseology to describe the Great Tribulation which we understand pertains to the destruction of Babylon the great. So the dashing of the power of the holy people which brings all things to their finish must occur in the future, because it marks the end of the wonderful things which includes the destruction of Babylon the Great, an admittedly future event.
Nowadays we have much more to go on than Daniel did, so it is quite understandable that he was confused, and therefore asked an additional question.
“O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?” (Dan. 12:8)
He is told in so many words that it is not for him to know. “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end.” (Dan. 12:9) However, it appears that the angel throws this very desirable man one last prophetic tidbit—and so we come to the crux of our post:
(Daniel 12:11, 12) 11 “And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!
Since the angel just asked about how long would be until these things come to an end, and since Daniel has added a question about what will be the final part of these things, one can rightly assume that the 1,290 and the 1,335 days are linked to the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces and therefore come at a time when “all these things come to their finish”.
That all seems perfectly logical, doesn’t it?
Is that our official understanding of the Scriptures? It is not. What is our official understanding? To answer that, let us first assume that the official understanding is correct and therefore will persist into the New World. At some point in the New World, Daniel will be resurrected.
(Daniel 12:13) 13 “And as for you yourself, go toward the end; and you will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”
It is probably a very safe assumption to say that one of the first things Daniel will want to learn about upon his resurrection will be how his prophetic words were fulfilled. Assuming our official teaching is correct, here’s how that conversation might go:
DANIEL: “So what did the appointed time, appointed times and a half turn out to be?”
US: “That was a literal 3 ½ year period.”
DANIEL: “Really, and when did it start?”
US: “In December, 1914.”
DANIEL: “Fascinating. And what event marked its start?”
US: “Ah, well, no event actually.”
DANIEL: “But wasn’t there a really big war that year?”
US: “Actually, there was, but it started in October, not December.”
DANIEL: “So December, 1914 was notable for the time when the power of the holy people was dashed to pieces?”
US: “No.”
DANIEL: “Then how do you know that the time period started in that month?”
US: “Because we know it ended in June, 1918, so we just count backwards from then.”
DANIEL: “And what happened in June, 1918?”
US: “That’s when eight members of the headquarters staff were thrown in prison.”
DANIEL: “I see. So what did the 3 ½ times represent?”
US: “Those 3 ½ years were the period of time in which Jehovah’s people were persecuted, trampled on, so to speak.”
DANIEL: “So the persecution began in December 1914?”
US: “Well, not actually. According to a Watchtower article brother Rutherford wrote in the March 1, 1925, there was no significant persecution until late in 1917. During the time brother Russell was alive, there really was no persecution of any significance.”[i]
DANIEL: “So then why do you say that the 3 ½ times began in December, 1914?”
US: “It has to have started then. Otherwise, we can’t say that it ended in June, 1918”
DANIEL: “And we know this because the power of the holy people was dashed to pieces in June, 1918?”
US: “Exactly.”
DANIEL: “And that’s because eight members of the world headquarters staff were jailed.”
US: “Yes, the work virtually stopped.”
DANIEL: “By “virtually” you mean…?”
US: “According to one report, there was a 20% drop in the preaching activity in 1918 over 1914.”[ii]
DANIEL: “So “virtually stopped” means it was diminished by 20%.”
US: “Essentially, yeah.”
DANIEL: “But the publishing of the Watchtower magazine that you told me about…surely that was stopped then?”
US: “Oh no, we never missed a printing. Not even one month. We only stopped printing the Watchtower when the attack on false religion began. That’s when the preaching work ended.”
DANIEL: “So what you’re saying is that the power of Jehovah’s people was dashed to pieces because there was a 20% drop in the preaching work in one year and no cessation of the printing of the magazines?”
US: “Yes, well, we didn’t know what to do when the leaders were imprisoned.”
DANIEL: “But somehow the brothers still managed to print the Watchtower, right?”
US: “Absolutely. You can’t stop Jehovah’s people.”
DANIEL: “And they keep going out in the preaching work.”
US: “Yes, indeed!”
DANIEL: “Even when they were dashed to pieces.”
US: “Precisely!”
DANIEL: “Okay. Got it. So once the power of the holy people was dashed in 1918, then all the things that I had written down under inspiration came to their end, correct? The King of the North met his end? Michael the great prince stood up in behalf of his people? And there was a time of distress such as never had occurred before in human history?”
US: “No, that didn’t happen until much later. Over a century later in fact.”
DANIEL: “But the Angel who was above the waters told me that ‘all these things would come to their finish when the power of the holy people had been dashed to pieces. You told me that happened in 1918, so the end must’ve come right after that. What did your publications have to say about that?”
US: “Well, nothing actually.”
DANIEL: “But weren’t there publications that explained the prophecy I recorded?”
US: “Yes, several. The last one was called Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy. It was an excellent publication.”
DANIEL: “So what did it have to say about why the Great Tribulation didn’t come when the power of the holy people was dashed to pieces in June, 1918, as the angel that spoke to me had prophesied would happen?”
US: “Nothing at all.”
DANIEL: “It said nothing at all on the subject?”
US: “Yeah, well, I guess we just sort of skipped over that part.”
DANIEL: “But wouldn’t that seem to be an intrinsic part of the prophecy?”
US: “Yes, it would seem to be so. But like I said, we never explained it.”
DANIEL: “Hmm, okay, let’s get down to the part about the constant feature being removed and the placing of the disgusting thing.?”
US: “Yes. That is an interesting part. The constant feature, you see, refers to the preaching work which was removed in 1918.”
DANIEL: “By being reduced in quantity by 20%?”
US: “You got it!”
DANIEL: “And the disgusting thing?”
US: “The disgusting thing refers to the League of Nations which came into being in 1919.”
DANIEL: “Why was it called the ‘disgusting thing’?”
US: “Because it stood in a holy place; a place where it should not have been standing. This refers to the time when the United Nations attacked Christendom, which was considered holy even though it had been rejected by Jehovah God. It’s like ancient Israel in 66 C.E. Its temple was still referred to as a holy place even though it had been rejected by Jehovah God after the Jews had killed his son. When Rome attacked the temple, it was called the disgusting thing standing in the holy place. So in the same way when the United Nations attacked Christendom, which like ancient Israel had gone apostate, it was a disgusting thing standing in a holy place.”[iii]
DANIEL: “I see. But the League of Nations never stood in the holy place, only the United Nations did, from what you're telling me. So how come we called the League of Nations the ‘disgusting thing’? What did it do to be distinguished from all other governments as a disgusting thing?”
US: "It stood in the holy place."
DANIEL: "Okay, but it never stood in the holy place. Its successor did."
US: “That's correct. When the United Nations attacked Babylon the Great, over one hundred years later, it was standing in the holy place.”
DANIEL: “But we don't count that. We count 1919 as the placing of the disgusting thing."
US: “Now you've got it.”
DANIEL: “I do? But how can we call it a disgusting thing when the real disgusting thing wouldn't be placed for over a century?”
US: “I just explained that.”
DANIEL: "You did?"
US: "Sure."
DANIEL: “Okay, let’s leave that for now. Tell me about the 1,290 days?”
US: “Ah, those are literal days. The 1,290 days only starts after the constant feature is removed and the disgusting things has been placed.”
DANIEL: “So the constant feature was removed in June, 1918 when the eight members of headquarters staff were removed, and it was restored when they were released nine months later in March of 1919, right?”
US: “Correct, and the League of Nations was placed during the nine month time period when it was proposed in January, 1919.”
DANIEL: “So that’s when it came into being?”
US: “Yes. Well, no. It depends. That’s when it was proposed, but it didn’t come into existence until the accord was signed by the 44 founding member states which happened on June 28, 1919.”
DANIEL: “But that would be outside of the nine months the constant feature was removed.”
US: “Exactly, that’s why we ignore the date of its creation and go with the date it was proposed in January, 1919 at the Paris Peace Conference.”
DANIEL: “So it was placed when it was proposed, not when it was created, right? That means it became the disgusting thing when it was merely proposed?”
US: “Correct, otherwise, our understanding wouldn’t work.”
DANIEL: “And that would never do. So if January, 1919 marks the start of the 1,290 days, what marks its end?”
US: “Well, nothing actually. But about three months after it ended we held a September convention in Cedar Point, Ohio.”
DANIEL: “A convention. You’re telling me that the prophecy I penned over 2,500 years ago was fulfilled by a convention that was held in Ohio?”
US: “It was a landmark convention.”
DANIEL: “But the convention didn’t occur when the 1,290 ended.”
US: “It was only three months off.”
DANIEL: “I don’t know. It seems like such a specific time period—so precise. If it was to be a convention, then wouldn’t Jehovah have been able to get it right to the day?”
US: [Shrugging our shoulders]
DANIEL: “And the 1,335 days? When did they end.”
US: “They’re counted as contiguous to the 1,290 days, so they would have ended in March, 1926.”
DANIEL: “And what happened in March, 1926.”
US: “Well, nothing actually. But there was an important Watchtower article in January of that year, and then in May, there was a convention in which we released the book, Deliverance. It replaced Studies in the Scriptures. ”
DANIEL: “But nothing happened in March when the 1,335 actually ended?”
US: “Ah, no.”
DANIEL: “So this holding of conventions and releasing of books was a fairly rare and noteworthy occurrence at that time?”
US: “Not at all. We did that every year.”
DANIEL: “I see. So every year there was a convention and every year you released a new book and so there was bound to be a convention and a book the year that the 1,335 days ended, just not on the day they actually ended?”
US: “Pretty much, yeah.”
DANIEL: “I see. And was the convention, by any chance, held in Cedar Point, Ohio?”
US: “You know. I don’t know. But I can find out.”
DANIEL: “Never mind. But thanks for your time.”
US: “No problem.”
An alternate theory
Sorry if the foregoing seems somewhat facetious, but we are merely trying to take our interpretation to its logical conclusion. If valid, it should be able to stand the test.
However, given that the constant feature of our worship and the fruit of the lips was not removed in 1918—a diminishment of 20% cannot be considered “a removal”—and given that we now teach that the disgusting thing stands or is placed in the holy place when the UN attacks Babylon the Great, it seems very safe to conclude that the 1,290 days and the 1,335 days have not yet begun. The power of the holy people has not been dashed to pieces yet. The two witnesses have not finished their witnessing and they have not been killed. (Rev. 11:1-13) It is all still in our future.
What of the 3 ½ times? Is this literal or figurative? The Bible uses various terms to refer to this measure of time: 3 ½ times, 42 months, 1,260 days. Sometimes it is obviously figurative, other times we cannot be sure. (Dan. 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5) We’ll have to wait and see what it refers to . However, everything points to an as-yet future fulfillment of the 1,290 and 1,335 days. This would indicate a time of trial and testing; a time requiring endurance. It would indicate that those who endure and reach the end of the 1,335 days will be pronounced happy.
Rather than falling into the trap of speculation, let’s leave it at that and just keep our minds and hearts open for indications as to when these two time periods actually begin. Those signs shouldn’t be hard to see. After all, the removal of the constant feature and the placing of the disgusting thing will be events visible on the world stage.
Dangerous, but exhilarating times lie ahead.
Archived Comments
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Comment by apollos0falexandria on 2012-10-18 11:00:27
I recall studying with an elder many years ago. I read the book of Daniel and was absolutely fascinated with every verse. Of course when I got to chapter 12 I wanted very much to know the meaning of the 1,290 and 1,335 days, and so I asked him. He didn't know but said he would research it for the next study. When that study came around he read the official interpretation to me. My internal reaction was along the lines of "what on earth ... ??" Another party was also present, and was so excited by the explanation dealing with the events of 1914 - 1922 that I honestly thought that he was making fun. It was the first time I can recall thinking "well I guess we don't have all the facts yet", and learning to live with that. It turns out that it was a handy thing to learn early on.
It occurred to me sometime later, that based on Jesus' reference to Daniel when warning of the destruction of Jerusalem, there might be a correlation between the time periods given in chapter 12 and the events that transpired in the first century. In fact there does appear to me to be a connection. Although it's difficult to get accurate dates for all events it appears that the start of the Jewish revolt in 66CE terminated the regular sacrifice on behalf of the emperor. It also was marked by the raid of Florus on the temple treasury.
Therefore there may be a couple of ways to interpret the periods in their first fulfillment. Perhaps the constant feature (sacrifice) was removed in 66CE and 1290 days later the disgusting thing was placed in 70CE. Or it could be said that the removal of the constant feature and the placing of the disgusting thing both marked the beginning of the period. Discerning Christians would know not to return to Jerusalem during this period. The 1335 days could be read as the total period from the start to finality of the destruction of Jerusalem. However the historical record does not seem to allow for this as the siege began at passover and finished in September - much longer than 45 days. Therefore I wonder whether it is another period beginning at the end of the 1290 days rather than running concurrently with it. Why would a Jewish Christian be happy to arrive at the end of this period? Remember that the Roman attack on Jerusalem was not the end of the story for those who had remained in the city. Some were still able to escape during the Roman invasion and fled to Masada where they finally met their suicidal end in 73CE. Only those who heeded Jesus' words and made it though both periods would arrive at the 1335 days alive.
This is all very speculative, and I don't have any support for it from any other sources, except that it seems the dates might fit. How this might translate to future events is another topic in itself.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2012-10-18 11:18:34
I had wondered the same thing, though I lacked the historical facts that you bring to light. It does appear that a case could be made for first century fulfillment. I’m very cautious these days about drawing the conclusion that there is a minor and major fulfillment to any particular Bible prophecy. I believe that we have gone overboard as an organization in doing this. We are better at it than we used to be back in the days when it seemed that every Bible account had some modern-day parallel to it. One of the more egregious examples of this was an article which drew parallels to virtually every aspect of Samson’s life. For example, the lion which he killed pictured Protestantism. (w67 2/15 “Jehovah Makes Full Might Abound”) Still, that doesn’t mean that there are not prophetic fulfillments that are both minor and major. This one makes a very good candidate. I guess we could apply the principle, “If the shoe fits, wear it.” It certainly does appear that the first century Christians could draw comfort and reassurance from the application of Daniel’s prophecy to their circumstances.
I do not see how our current understanding of this prophecy as it applies to our day can possibly be true. It seems very evident from even a casual reading of Daniel’s words that the fulfillment is in our future. I’m confident that when it is being fulfilled, we will draw reassurance from knowing that the difficult events we will be undergoing will be limited to a very specific time period.
Comment by apollos0falexandria on 2012-10-18 12:24:13
I agree with you. We shouldn't be too hasty to assign two fulfillments. However in this case I think that the text fairly demands that we make two applications. The whole concept of the disgusting thing standing in the holy place had to be meaningful to first century Christians otherwise Matt 24:15,16 would make no sense. On the other hand Daniel 12 must have a fulfillment for the ultimate "time of the end" because I don't think chapter 11 leading up to it can ever be made to fit with a conclusion at 70CE. Hence I believe that the great tribulation is likely to last 3 ½ years. Some passages in Revelation appear to support this.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2012-10-18 14:02:24
You make an excellent point. So let’s have a little fun with speculation. This is, of course, pure speculation. It would be wrong for anyone to speculate and then claim the speculation was revealed truth, or “new light”.
It seems plausible to conclude that the disgusting thing stands in a holy place when the United Nations attack Christendom. To fulfill Daniel’s words, the removal of the constant feature would have to be concurrent with that event. Could the removal of the constant feature indicate the cessation of the witnessing work? According to Revelation chapter 11 the two witnesses cease their preaching and then are killed. If the 1290 days are literal, then it would be safe to assume that for a period of a little over 3 ½ years the attack on Babylon the great will continue. That seems feasible since you don’t destroy an institution as pervasive and entrenched as false religion overnight.
Following the destruction of Babylon the Great, there will be a period of turmoil. Again, you don’t recover from the eradication of a key component of human civilization from one day to the next. Revelation indicates that they will be lamenting the loss of the revenue they derived from their dealings with false religion. It will take some time for the world economy to stabilize. It would be likely that during that period of time we would continue in an inert or deathlike state. Perhaps that is the period referred to as the 1,335 days. After that period is over and the world has restored some equilibrium, there would seem to be a just reason for issuing a cry of peace and security. With religion gone—the cause of so much war, turmoil, and violence—such a cry may seem quite logical. Perhaps in that new climate, we can again resurface. That might cause fear and trembling to fall upon many as they see that one religion has survived. However, in the aftermath of such a violent conflict, it would be likely that we would enjoy a time of relative peace. Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 do refer to Jehovah’s people as dwelling in security without any visible protection, or the need for such. It is in this climate of tranquility that the final assault upon Jehovah’s people is launched by Satan.
Well I’ve had my fun. Any thoughts?Reply by Jo Joel on 2018-04-21 20:41:51
May I? The removal of "constant feature" could simply mean the diminishing of the influence of the "prayers of the holy ones' ...as in the case of appointing the elders by CO only!
Comment by apollos0falexandria on 2012-10-19 11:55:28
I agree in broad stokes that this might well fit. How much of a parallel there is with the actual events of the first century remains to be seen. Your proposition requires that we accept some significant departures. For instance the sacrifice at the temple was something that Jehovah was in principle no longer accepting in 66CE, whereas we believe that our sacrifice of praise is acceptable right now. Also the destruction of Jerusalem (paralleled in Christendom) was not really a 3 ½ year attack by the Romans. The tribulation was brought about internally in the city for that period by their own factions and the final assault by the Romans was only a few months in length.
Should we look for a close parallel, or just that each situation fits the original prophecy in one way or another? I am not sure. I remember back when the "holy place" was interpreted as actually being a holy place from God's standpoint, and I argued that didn't make sense since in the Jerusalem account the temple was no longer holy from His perspective - only from that of the Jews. I met some stiff opposition at the time, but now of course we do officially say that the modern day holy place is from man's perspective not God's. So I tend to continue to look for the close parallels unless there is strong evidence that they won't work anymore.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2012-10-19 12:49:45
It would depend on how the attack on Babylon takes shape. It might start as an economic attack. First of all, a tax imposed, which escalates into an all-out rape of her resources. 'They will strip her and eat her fleshy parts.' The attack in the first century began in 66 C.E. and while it was aborted, the Roman/Jewish war continued until 73 C.E.
Mind you, I'm not one to favor a too-close parallel approach to any minor/major prophetic fulfillment. The trouble with the parallel approach is knowing when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em. Otherwise, we could end up in the mindset that caused us to believe Rachel's ten camels represent the word of God. When do you stop drawing parallels? One could postulate that the camel dung represents the apocryphal Bible books. Or to paraphrase Monty Python's Sergeant, "It started out as a nice little idea, but now it's gotten silly."
Reply by Anonymous on 2016-12-21 20:59:52
This is a Dreamers take on this point- Or "symbolic"version of things
Lol@rachel's camels by GB lol
Comment by apollos0falexandria on 2012-10-19 15:34:05
Of course I agree with that 100%. When something is arbitrarily appied to a latter day situation then we can run into all sorts of trouble. However there is a big difference between just speculating that A parallels B with no other support (as in Rachel's camels), and the scenario that we are talking about here whereby we know that A has a fulfillment in B and also that A has a fulfillment in C, but we wonder how closely B might therefore parallel C. Wouldn't you agree?
That having been said I can see the possibility of B and C being entirely distinct as long as they both have the required connections with A. In a sense that concept appeals to me in that one prophecy could have a dual fulfillment that works in both cases, but in very different ways.
Any prophecy that has a double fulfillment (whether the events parallel each other or not) certainly raises the stakes as to what the nature of the source must be. Even though some human sources may at times seem to make some fairly accurate predictions, I don't think we'll ever see parallel fulfillments of them in two periods of human history.
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2012-10-21 15:15:06
You make a very good point, Apollos. There is strong scriptural support for a dual fulfillment. Daniel 12:1, 2 does appear to be referring to the great tribulation. Matthew 24:15-22 also refers to the great tribulation. Jesus himself draws a parallel between what he is saying and what is spoken of through Daniel the prophet. Jesus’ words had a fulfillment in the first century and will have a fulfillment in our time. So this adds to the weight of the argument that Daniel 12:11, 12 also has a dual fulfillment.
We may be able to extend the parallel a bit further. Matthew 24:23-28 talks about a time that follows the Great Tribulation; a time when it will be a challenge to identify when and where the presence of the Son of Man will take place. Verse 28 says, “Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
It occurred to me that the first century governing body, such as it was, ceased to exist, or at the very least was scattered to the winds, during their great tribulation. The governing body then wasn't just a tiny group of individuals as it is today, but comprised the entire body of older men of the city of Jerusalem. With the city under siege and the Christian scattered, there would be no centralized authority anymore. Of course, there was no centralized authority in their day as there is now. Nevertheless, what there was, there was. And from 66 C.E. onward it was gone. Is there also a modern-day parallel with that?
In the forum post, “Great Signs and Wonders — When?” we postulated the possibility that Matthew 24:23-28 has its fulfillment after the destruction of Babylon the Great. As with the destruction of Jerusalem, we may experience a time in which there is no visible centralized authority over the organization. Perhaps all the members of the governing body will have been imprisoned. Perhaps will all be scattered to the wind so to speak. Perhaps the fulfillment of the killing of the two witnesses will in some way parallel what happened to the Christian witnesses that had to flee Jerusalem in 66 C.E.
If the two witnesses lie dead, it may be that the organization will be rudderless. Many may wonder what to do and where to go. If there is a delay following the destruction of Babylon the Great, impatience may weaken many, exposing them to the danger of being misled by false promises such as our prophesied to happen in Matthew 24:23-26.
I've often wondered about the wording Jesus uses when he compares his presence to eagles flying above a carcass. Eagles are farsighted creatures, and are drawn to a carcass. Could the figurative carcass be the dead bodies of the two witnesses that are lying in the main way of the great city?Reply by Shahida on 2012-11-15 05:16:10
I'm enjoying the discussion...please bear with me, I truly appreciate when the Bible is used as reference...I've read your other blogs regarding speculation becoming fact. ..that being the case, why refer to a first century governing body, when in fact, the word doesn't appear in the holy scriptures?...why not simply stick to what is written in the scriptures in your argument?
please do not consider this as a personal attack.
Reply by Anonymous on 2016-12-21 20:53:02
This explains why I keep "seeing" famine? Perhaps it related to the two witnesses ?
I tried to ask here http://discussthetruth.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2049&hilit=Mt+Zion&start=30#p21887
As you can see the answer wasn't particularly helpful I think?
Comment by Pauline Spearing on 2012-11-14 02:35:29
Thank you for that entertaining discussion!!
I believe, for any of us to be able to even contemplate survival... we must start NOW... learning to lean on Jehovah every single day... especially our bad days... so that we are already in the habit of acceptance of His Love and protection... (2 Cor 12:10)
I often say to Him, "I can't do this today... You do it...", and they are usually my best days...!!?
This is why I worry that the emphasis is so strong for us to lean on the, "Organisation..." With respect, if it's going to be scattered to the wind... how would anyone survive if they've never learned to lean on Jehovah and Christ Jesus...?
May Jehovah's undeserved kindness cover us all...
Comment by Shahida on 2012-11-15 05:16:39
I'm enjoying the discussion...please bear with me, I truly appreciate when the Bible is used as reference...I've read your other blogs regarding speculation becoming fact. ..that being the case, why refer to a first century governing body, when in fact, the word doesn't appear in the holy scriptures?...why not simply stick to what is written in the scriptures in your argument?
please do not consider this as a personal attack.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2012-11-15 07:29:21
Not at all. I appreciate the feedback. I'm assuming you're referring to my comment of Oct. 21 at 3:15 PM, right? I added the phrase "such as it was' to indicate I was only using the term "governing body" in a relative context for the sake of a comparison with our day. I didn't want to sidetrack the point I was making with a qualification of what might have constituted the leadership of Jehovah's people in the first century. Whatever that leadership was and however extensive is may have been, we cannot know. But whatever leadership--if any--there was, must have been scattered and disrupted during that great tribulation, which was the point I was trying to make.
Actually, very recently I've heard arguments that there wasn't any form of governing body in those days. The only scriptural account we use to support the idea of a first century governing body is the circumcision issue raised by the Galatians. However, it can be reasoned that since the source of the problem were the Christian Jews from Jerusalem, it follows that Paul would have to journey to Jerusalem to have it resolved.
Thanks for your comment.
Comment by Shahida on 2012-11-15 07:44:41
Thanks for your explanation.
I personally don't believe there was a first century governing body, neither was Paul part of any such centralized body nor was his ministry directed from Jerusalem.
Thanks alot for your interesting and open discussions.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2012-11-15 08:15:58
I agree. Officially we teach that Paul was a member of the governing body. Since there is no evidence of that--even assuming there was such a thing as a first century governing body--then one must wonder why we teach that. After all, Paul makes a point of distancing himself from the prominent ones in Jerusalem.
(Galatians 1:16-19) . . .I did not go at once into conference with flesh and blood. 17 Neither did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles previous to me, but I went off into Arabia, and I came back again to Damascus. 18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ce?phas, and I stayed with him for fifteen days. 19 But I saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.
Likewise, when he went to see them over the circumcision issue, he was the petitioner, not one of the boys--so to speak.
So again, why teach that he was a GB member? I'm guessing here, but it may be because of the issue in which he publicly rebuked Peter.
(Galatians 2:11) . . .However, when Ce?phas came to Antioch, I resisted him face to face, because he stood condemned.
If Paul were not a GB member, then what would we equate him to? A circuit or district overseer? Or a missionary? Certainly, given his life-long occupation following conversion, a missionary would fit the bill. But that would mean a missionary was publicly rebuking not only a GB member, but one of Christ's personally selected apostles.
Of course, Paul was also personally selected by Christ. In that sense, Peter and Paul were on an equal footing.
Today, neither the local elders nor the members of the Governing Body are personally selected by Christ. So we are all on an equal footing in that regard.
However, it would not do if we all felt free to publicly counsel those above us in the theocratic hierarchy. The flow of counsel is usually downhill. That is not as it should be and there are many times among true Christians that it is freely exchanged, but there are also many times that counsel flowing uphill--so to speak--is discouraged.
It would not do if we had a Bible precedent for lowly ones offering counsel to those in authority, so Paul, you see, must have been one of the inner circle to be able to say what he said.
That is my theory in any case.Reply by Pauline Spearing on 2012-11-15 09:56:25
...??... With respect...
Aren't we all equal in Jehovah's eyes...?
There are no, "Lowly ones...", or an, "Heirarchy..."... as far as He is concerned...
We are ALL his children...
Our Lord has brought us to this state out of His, "undeserved kindness...", because we love Him and, "knew His voice...", gratefully receiving His, "Free Gift... of salvation."
This is why we need the Headship of Christ... because not one of us can do it without Him...
How many times during the 3.5 years they were with Him, did He have to show the apostles lessons in humility... He even washed their feet...!!??
There can be no room for the ego in our family, (and I include women - myself). We are here to love one another... END OF...!!
And I believe that sometimes this includes having the courage to kindly approach ANY brother or sister, whoever they are... if they are acting in a way that is stumbling to us, or their brothers and sisters... It is our duty as, THEIR brother or sister... because of the huge responsibility they have taken on... caring for our Lord's sheep...!?
Unless of course it's ok for us to treat another as if they are somehow more special, even better, than the rest of Jehovah's children...?
May Jehovah please forgive our human-nesses...
Matt 18:1-35/Luke 22:24-27/1 Tim 2:5/1 Cor 11:3Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2012-11-15 10:10:46
Absolutely! I think that if we were all more willing to take a risk and speak up when something is off with those taking the lead among us, we would have far less of a problem with this. Many of those in positions of responsibility are humble and would respond well. However, there are others who would not so respond. But in that case, we are heaping hot coals and performing a refining work.
Mind you, that's not to suggest ingenuously that there would be no repercussions were we to engage in the freedom to counsel others. After all, from this week's Bible reading we have this caution:
(Amos 5:13) Therefore the very one having insight will in that time keep silent, for it will be a calamitous time.Reply by Pauline Spearing on 2012-11-15 10:31:09
Well said...!?
Better watch myself...
My son always tells me I'm naive...
Thank you brother...
"Cautious as serpents..."... (always wondered at that analogy...???...:)
Comment by Pauline Spearing on 2012-11-15 08:58:35
Just a few tidbits to ponder... re the first fulfilment...
Chronology of the Signs relating to the destruction of the Temple recorded by Josephus in, "The Jewish Wars":
James the Just - the half-brother of the Lord - was killed on the Passover in 62 C.E.
"Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."
Josephus - Antiquities
~ “Thus it was that the wretched people were deluded at that time by charlatans and pretended messengers of the deity; while they neither heeded nor believed in the manifest portents that foretold the coming desolation, but, as if thunderstruck and bereft of eyes and mind, disregarded the plain warnings of God.”
Josephus 6:288
~ “So it was when a star resembling a sword, stood over the city [Jerusalem] and a comet which continued for a year.”
Josephus, Jewish Wars 6:289
~ “So again when, before the revolt and the commotion that led to war [i.e., before the war], at the time when the people were assembling for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthieus [Nisan], at the ninth hour of the night [3 am] ...so brilliant a light [Shekina] shone round the [holy] altar and the sanctuary [of the temple] that it seemed to be broad daylight; and this continued for half an hour.
By the inexperienced this was regarded as a good omen, but by the sacred scribes it was at once interpreted in accordance with after [later] events.”
Josephus, Jewish Wars 6:291–292
~ “At that same feast [just after the 2nd sign, the great light over the altar] a cow that had been brought for sacrifice gave birth to a lamb, in the midst in the court of the Temple.”
Josephus, Jewish Wars 6:292
~ “The eastern gate of the inner court — it was of brass and very massive, and, when closed towards evening, could scarcely be moved by 20 men; fastened with iron-bound bars [on each side], it had bolts which were sunk to a great depth into a threshold consisting of a solid block of stone — this gate was observed at the sixth hour of the night [midnight] to have opened of its own accord. The watchmen of the temple ran and reported the matter to the captain, and he came up and with difficulty succeeded in shutting it.”
Josephus, Jewish Wars 6:293–294
~ “But the learned understood that the security of the Temple was dissolving of its own accord and that the opening of the gate meant a present to the enemy, interpreting the portent sign, [the same word as in the gospel] in their own minds as indicative of coming desolation.”
Josephus, Jewish Wars 6:295–296
~ "Again, not many days after that festival on the twenty-first of Artemisium [the Jewish month of Iyyar which is in the late springtime], there appeared a miraculous phenomenon, passing belief. Indeed, what I am about to relate would, I imagine, have been deemed a fable, were it not for the narratives of eyewitnesses and for the subsequent calamities which deserved to be so signalized, [great sign]. For before sunset throughout all parts of the country [of Judea] chariots were seen in the air and armed battalions hurtling through the clouds and encompassing the cities.”
Josephus, Jewish Wars 6:299
~ “Moreover, at the feast which is called Pentecost the priests [all 24 of them] on entering the inner court of the Temple by night as their custom was in the discharge of their ministrations, reported that they were conscious, first of a commotion and a din [a great noise], and after that of a voice as of a host [an army], ‘We are departing hence [from here].”
Josephus, Jewish Wars 6:299–300
nb "Not, 'I am departing...', but, 'We...'... The day of Pentecost is a day that signified the completion of one thing and the beginning of another. It is interesting to note that on the day of Pentecost - exactly 33 years from the time that the Gospel started in Jerusalem — to the very day — this announcement and sign occurred."
~ “But a further portent was even more alarming. Four years before the war [in Tabernacles time in 62 C.E.] when the city was enjoying profound peace and prosperity, there came to the feast at which it was the custom of all Jews to erect tabernacles to God, one Joshua, son of Ananias, a rude peasant, who, standing in the Temple, suddenly began to cry out, ...
‘A voice from the east,
a voice from the west,
a voice from the four winds;
a voice against Jerusalem and the sanctuary,
a voice against the bridegroom and the bride,
a voice against all the people.’
So for seven years and five months he continued his wail, his voice never flagging nor
his strength exhausted, until the siege, having seen his presage verified, he found his rest. For, while going his round and shouting in piercing tones from the wall, ‘Woe once more to the city and to the people and to the Temple,’ as he added a last word, ‘and woe to me also,’ a stone hurled from the ballista struck and killed him on the spot. So with those ominous words still on his lips he passed away.”
Josephus, Jewish Wars 6:300–301
According to Josephus it was completely finished about 6 years before it was destroyed in 70 C.E.,. Even at the time of Christ it was 46 years building (John 2:20). They continued building until 64 C.E.
~ Jerusalem surrounded, Joshua dies, city and Temple destroyed
If there IS to be a 2nd fulfilment... seems we'll be left in no doubt...
Hail Jehovah of Armies and His Son Christ Jesus
All References: "Signs of the Times in the First Century" - Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1982 - Transcribed and Edited by David Sielaff, July 2004
Comment by Jo Joel on 2018-04-21 20:23:21
May I please? Comment to 1290 and 1335 days, please? I somehow believe that the book of Revelation talks what will happen in the "last days". But it is the book of Daniel that gives us the "timeline" to the end! I can share my thoughts, if you allow me.
Comment by Jo Joel on 2019-02-10 19:14:23
I too am very much interested in Daniel's prophecy about 2300, 1260, 1290 and 1335 days. Somehow I believe that 1260, 1290 and 1335 days run concurrently until the end, that is when before Armageddon Jesus judges and the sheep (in contrast with the goats) are happy because they have survived it! I also have some ideas about when 2300 and 1260, 1290 and 1335 days may have begun.