144,000 - Literal or Symbolic?

Comment by Alec Holmes on 2013-03-18 11:24:21

Also, when one takes a look at the number of anointed Christians in modern times, one has to wonder how is it possible that in the first-century there weren't close to 144,000 faithful Christians and a great number of them only appeared on earth now.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-18 11:36:10

  Quite so. In fact, just working from the numbers baptized that the Bible gives us and then allowing for conservative numbers of converts among the gentiles, then extrapolating birth rates and the fact that apostasy didn't overwhelm the congregation completely for some time after the apostles died, we can easily show mathematically that the number was filled within 100 years of Christ's death.

• Reply by Chris on 2014-11-09 17:26:05

  I believe what Russell stated. "Many are called but few are chosen". Lots of Christians are anointed but may it win the race of becoming the 144,000

Comment by Steve on 2013-03-18 12:16:30

Meleti,
Realizing this goes a bit beyond the scope of the post, some thoughts preemptively for your future one:
1) What we read about the 144,000 is what John heard, not what he saw. Could it not be that the great crowd are him seeing the group just described to him?
2) The angel says not to harm the earth until the servants of our God have been sealed. This would suggest that anyone who is a servant of God is among this group.
3) The number 12 is a symbolic number and what we are here told of it is a group consisting of 12 x 12 x 1000.
Steve

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-18 12:35:35

  Steve
  Interesting points, but I think there must be one distinction between the groups. The great crowd are those that have come out of the great tribulation. The 144K seems to represent all those who rule with Christ. Perhaps therefore the great crowd is a subset of the 144K.
  I know it sounds counter-inuitive based upon the numbers, but once we allow for the 144,000 to be a symbolic number then that becomes irrelevant. The number 144,000 as a grand multiple of 12x12x1000 indicates the completeness of the arrangement. However those facing the great tribulation would want to be assured that there was no limit, that the way would be open for all, and that if they were faithful they would be in good company.
  These were some recent thoughts that made sense to me.
  Apollos

  • Reply by Steve on 2013-03-18 13:15:52

    Apollos,
    I'm not convinced "have come" is necessarily the best reading. It is a present participle, so it may be that John is seeing them in the process of coming out. Participles are tricky business.
    We do not find any indication of an ongoing sealing that must be concluded. Rather, the angel would seem to initiate a sealing, specifically eschatological in nature. So the 144,000 would be the living church, but not the church throughout all of history, be it of those on earth at the end or all in the resurrection.
    I'm uncertain as to your point on symbolism. Perhaps you might elaborate.
    Steve

    • Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-18 13:45:14

      Hi Steve
      I accept that my designation of the 144,000 as the entire church from the 1st century on is mostly based upon our current doctrinal preconceptions. This is a rut that I try to avoid, so thanks for catching me on that.
      I can see your point that this vision may refer only to those sealed during the end times. I take it that you accept that first century Christians were also sealed by holy spirit (2Co 1:21, 22; Eph 1:13, 14; 4:30), but that you are pointing out that the 144,000 does not necessarily describe the full number who are ever sealed. Rather it could be limited to those that are sealed during the time period of the vision. If I've got that wrong then maybe you can explain why those of the first century are receiving sealing of a different kind.
      If I got it right so far then I agree that there is nothing that conclusively says that this would be the full number, but I also don't see anything that firmly suggests it would be limited to an eschatological group either. So I'm open to persuasion on that. Nevertheless if I had to swing one way or the other just now, I would still think that Rev 7:4 in combination with James 1:1 makes the entire church the more plausible option.
      What evidence would you provide to limit the group to the end times only?
      Regarding your question about symbolism, did you just mean my take on 144K being 12x12x10x10 ? If so then all I was saying is that if the number 144,000 is not literal then it must be symbolic. If it is symbolic then it must have symbolic meaning. The simplest symbolic meaning I could conceive involves the number 12 and 10 which according to our published understanding mean "complete, balanced, divinely constituted arrangement" and "fullness, entirety, the aggregate, the sum of all that exists of something" respectively. Therefore if the number were to represent the entire body of the bride of Christ then to me at least it would seem fitting.
      If that's not what you were referring to then let me know and I'll try again.
      Apollos

      • Reply by Steve on 2013-03-19 17:25:23

        Apollos,
        I can appreciate your views on presuppositions. I share much the same view.
        My inclination on the text is based upon two things. One, Rev. 4:1 says the things described are yet future. Two, the sealing elsewhere spoken of in scripture would seem to take place upon conversion, while this one is for those who are already servants of God.
        I'm have no presuppositions opposition to your view, I'm just not certain it best fits the text.
        Steve

• Reply by saraybach54 on 2013-03-18 12:53:26

  With respect Steve...?
  The great crowd are seen by John in heaven - standing before the throne - having already been saved from the great tribulation...(Rev 7:9,10) There is mention of a group of multi-nationals, who are to rule as Kings and Priests over thew earth, in Revelation 5:9,10, who are singing a song, the words to which are written down...(as opposed to secret)...but that's only going to muddy the waters even more...!!!???
  However, the 144,000 are still on earth when their foreheads are sealed...(Rev 7:3) and stay on earth for a while...(Rev 9:4)
  The next time they appear, they are standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb...(Rev 14:1)and then they finally show up after the thousand years have ended, coming down out of heaven as part of the structure of New Jerusalem...with the 12 apostles, literally as the 12 cornerstones...(Rev 21:9-13)
  Curiouser and curiouser...
  Apologies dear Brother Meliti

  • Reply by Steve on 2013-03-18 13:19:03

    Saray,
    Again, I'm not convinced by this view, for multiple reasons, including my grammatical note to Apollos. As mentioned above, it is not clear that they have already been saved from the tribulation in Revelation 7.
    Steve

    • Reply by saraybach54 on 2013-03-18 14:23:53

      With respect Steve...
      How do you read verses10 then...?
      They cry out with a loud voice, "Salvation we owe to our God..."
      How can they affirm that if they are yet to be saved...?

      • Reply by Steve on 2013-03-19 17:26:31

        The Bible regularly speaks of Christians as saved in the present. I don't see this as a difficulty.
        Steve

  • Reply by saraybach54 on 2013-03-18 13:38:12

    Incidently... there appears to be no direct reference, in any scripture mentioning the 144,000, to their ruling as kings and priests for the thousand years...

Comment by on 2013-03-19 20:02:31

The number may be in-fact just symbolic, but if one were to look at the priestly classes under the old law, only a few, Aaron's offspring (high-priests) were allowed in to the inner tent. So this to me seems to indicate that there will be only a few compared to the great crowd that will rule as kings and priest. Paul also mentioned in Romans that these had to like Christ suffer like him to attain this reward.

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-19 23:01:11

  Being a kingdom of priests was a promise to the entire nation of Israel, not just a few individuals.

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-19 20:18:48

Excellent point. Of course, few is relative. When one things of the billions that will be resurrected and will need personal shepherding, one can consider that even a few million kings and priests will be a small number.

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-20 11:22:17

The premise of this post - "literal or symbolic" fails to recognize that Jehovah designed this spiritual arrangement from the beginning to be both.
The 24 divisions of the Levitical priesthood were structured in their service - Luke 1. and:
(Hebrews 7:11-14) 11 If, then, perfection were really through the Levitical priesthood, (for with it as a feature the people were given the Law,) what further need would there be for another priest to arise according to the manner of Mel?chiz?e?dek and not said to be according to the manner of Aaron? 12 For since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For the man respecting whom these things are said has been a member of another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is quite plain that our Lord has sprung up out of Judah, a tribe about which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.
The Rev. 7 tribes are sons of Israel - both symbolic and literal.
The 12 x 12 x 1000 arrangement for heavenly kings and priests needs to be seen and appreciated in the historical context of Jehovah's purpose for a full reconciliation.
So in the end, it comes down to what Jehovah has arranged. But again and again we see his mastery over mathematics and physics - and that he combines the literal numbers by which a man might measure (like John with his survey rod to measure the temple) with symbolic significance.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-20 12:16:59

  Urbanus
  So your contention is that whilst the number 144,000 was chosen for its symbolism, there will also literally be that number of kings and priests. Did I understand that correctly?
  Do you have any scriptural evidence of that? I failed to find any in Luke 1 or Hebrews 7, but perhaps I am missing the point.
  Apollos

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-20 12:41:02

The burden of prove is on you, my dear brother. There seems to be every reason to believe in a structured and divinely designed arrangement for the redemption of all mankind. 1 or 12 or 24 all work for me, but Revelation is deterministic at 12x12x1000 until proven otherwise.
What is beautiful about the symbolism of Revelation 7 is treating Joseph and Levi as fleshly sons of Israel, and therefore, as sons of spiritual Israel chosen from every race and nation of mankind since Pentecost of 33 CE. After all, it was Jehovah himself that created the races and nations by the dispersion and geographical isolation of the sons of Noah (the three races) following the events of Genesis 11.
(2 Corinthians 5:16-21) 16 Consequently from now on we know no man according to the flesh. Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more. 17 Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence. 18 But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and he committed the word of the reconciliation to us. 20 We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-20 13:01:07

  If the burden of proof is on me then there would have to be some reason to believe that the usage of numbers in Revelation is generally literal. If this is not the case then I say the burden of proof is on the party who insists that in this particular case it IS literal.
  (Revelation 1:1) .. he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs ...
  (Revelation 1:20) As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw upon my right hand, and [of] the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean [the] angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean seven congregations.
  (Revelation 4:4) And round about the throne [there are] twenty-four thrones, and upon these thrones [I saw] seated twenty-four elders dressed in white outer garments, and upon their heads golden crowns.
  (Revelation 4:6) And before the throne there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal. And in the midst of the throne and around the throne [there are] four living creatures that are full of eyes in front and behind.
  (Revelation 9:16) And the number of the armies of cavalry was two myriads of myriads: I heard the number of them.
  Are there literally 7 congregations, 24 elders, 4 living creatures, and exactly 200 million cavalry?

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-20 13:17:59

  I have to concur with Apollos on this. Since the Revelation is full of signs and symbols, we can only say for sure that a number is literal if a) it is explicitly stated as such, or b) there can be no other way to understand it, or c) the number is found elsewhere in Scripture where is it plainly understood to be literal.
  144,000 may be literal or it may be symbolic, or as Urbanus points out, it may even be both. But saying something may be so is vastly different from asserting it is so. The former position does not affect our worship, but the latter clearly does. Saying that the 144,000 is literal when we cannot know that for certain has forced us to adopt a form of worship which cannot be clearly supported in Scripture. It has forced us to declare that millions of faithful Christians are under no obligation to obey Jesus' direction to partake of the emblems in remembrance of his sacrifice. It has cause these millions to cease viewing him as their mediator.
  To declare as doctrinal fact something which is not declared in Scripture, nor revealed by inspiration, but which is only arrived at via questionable human deductive reasoning, and then cause faithful servants to alter their form of worship of the true God accordingly is very dangerous ground to tread. It is what every other form of worship and religion has done. This is not the way of true worship.
  Is it not time for us to say, "we don't know" when we really don't know? We do not have to have an answer for everything. Jehovah will reveal what must be revealed in its own time and in a way that is beyond question. This he has always done in the past and he has never failed to do it in a way that leaves no doubt as to the origin of the divine utterance.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-20 13:30:52

  Also as an addendum to my previous comment, I don't think that the beauty of the symbolism depends upon a literal interpretation.
  As you point out Urbanus, many of these number are based upon a literal fleshly arrangement. I do see the beauty in expressing the spiritual arrangement in terms of numbers of completeness that had already been demonstrated in the inferior arrangement. But it would seem to limit God if we say that he therefore had to base his glorious kingdom arrangement upon the literal numbers that were used as a type. I can't imagine God saying "sorry you can't be a part of this because you'd mess my beautiful numbers up."
  Steve raises some good points, and if he is on the right lines, then to follow up the specifically beautiful number with a vision that might show the same group as innumerable would make sense.

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-20 16:39:24

Despite our general agreement, we have come to a slight impasse.
"Are there literally 7 congregations, 24 elders, 4 living creatures, and exactly 200 million cavalry?"
Allowing for some rounding off on the last item, who is to say otherwise than yes.
Have a third of the angels fallen? One there one God and Father?
That being said, I have searched my Calvinist soul for nearly five decades on the subject of who partakes of the emblems. At the beginning I earnestly prayed for truth, and truth I found.
Since I don't expect to sit on thrones with Jesus and partake of the vine with him in heaven, likely I will not partake yet. But keep this reasoning on the scriptures going - you're making headway. It is time for God's people to speak from the mind and heart.
If faith in Jesus in the basis of salvation, then my faith has saved me, thanks be to God. As the RS book well states in this week's school program, faith in the emblems is demonstrated by the pattern of ones life and ministry. The emblems are symbols.
*** rs p. 268 par. 4 Memorial (Lord’s Evening Meal) ***
Earlier, in verse 40, when explaining what people must do to have everlasting life, what did he say was the will of his Father? That “everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life.” Reasonably, then, ‘eating his flesh and drinking his blood’ in a figurative sense is done by exercising faith in the redeeming power of Jesus’ flesh and blood laid down in sacrifice. This exercising of faith is required of all who will gain the fullness of life, whether in the heavens with Christ or in the earthly Paradise.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-20 16:55:38

  While it is true that partaking of the emblems clearly is not some sort of talisman to preserve our souls, it is still one of the few direct commands given to us by our Lord.
  But no one should persuade you that you must partake if that is not in your heart, just as it is inappropriate to persude any person that he or she should not observe the command.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-20 16:58:43

  Really the same thing could be said of baptism. In and of itself it does not preserve us if we make no attempt to keep the law of the Christ. Same thing with preaching. But our observances of these few things that Jesus directed are all part of what it is to be Christian, and they all have their individual roles to play in our lives to keep us focused on what we are in this world.

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-20 17:57:01

Thanks Apollos-
To explain "my Calvinist soul," I partook of Welch's grape juice and small cubes of white bread because I was born as one of the "elect" brothers of Christ.
But once I learned of Jehovah's purpose to redeem mankind through the ransom sacrifice of the blood of the lamb, I no longer considered myself "elect."
Jesus command to eat and drink his blood and flesh was given more than a year before his death. It was therefore symbolic.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-20 18:14:50

  Of course it is symbolic. No arguments from me there. But that doesn't mean we can sideline them as less important because they are symbolic.
  There are two extremes here:
  1) The bread and the wine are literally Christ's body and flesh.
  2) The bread and the wine are merely symbols and therefore whether or not we follow Jesus command to remember him by partaking of them is not a big deal.
  Neither of these can be true.
  If you have determined that the meal does not apply to you then that is entirely your decision. I have no desire to influence someone on this matter. But I certainly disagree with the idea that Jesus' command was only to be observed by a minority that were predestined to have Jesus as their mediator to the exclusion of all others. Such an arrangement is not the product of the God I worship, and I find no support for it in scripture.
  By the way - why Welch's grape juice rather than the wine that was evidently instituted by Jesus? Also if they were bread cubes, were they leavened?

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-20 18:51:59

Grape juice to avoid drinking alcohol. Wonderbread I guess because it was done 4 times a year - and eating matzoh is not a Presbyterian thing - even if a "body of elders (presbyters)" is.
So would Presbyterians eating white bread and drinking grape juice in an expression of faith admit them to heaven, and Jehovah's baptized Christian Witnesses not partaking as "sons of the Kingdom Covenant" deny them salvation?

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-21 08:49:01

  Re: Would Presbyterians eating white bread and drinking grape juice in an expression of faith admit them to heaven, and Jehovah’s baptized Christian Witnesses not partaking as “sons of the Kingdom Covenant” deny them salvation?
  I have never said that not partaking denies a person salvation, and I specifically did say that the emblems are not some sort of talisman such that partaking becomes a ticket to heaven.
  (Revelation 2:23) ... all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds.

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-21 01:49:43

When Jesus formed a covenant with Kingdom Heirs as partakers at the first (pre-death) memorial, he said:
(Luke 22:28-30)  “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus was not the mediator of the ever-lasting covenant his Father had made with him. Neither does his acting as mediator in this matter with his faithful 11 apostles exclude his ransom sacrifice being applied to all those exercising faith in him.
And neither does it invite all such persons onto thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel with him.
Clearly there is a two-tiered system of Christians. That is seen in Matt 25, with the two groups "brothers of Christ" and "sheep", along with the other portion of mankind found to be "goats."

• Reply by saraybach54 on 2013-03-21 05:27:53

  With respect Urbanus...
  using the word, "clearly", when interpreting scripture, especially on this site...!!!???
  We all seem to have a number of theories on this doctrine... which is the very reason we're here...
  I've already voiced mine... but it seems to me that we all want to be, "Right...!"...?
  Once more unto the fray," dear brother
  rs... :-)

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-21 08:02:25

    Thank you, saraybach54. :-)
    Other catchwords and catchphrases to be wary of are "evidently", "it is evident", "without doubt" and "undoubtedly". These are good old English words who have their place in the vernacular, but due to their frequent use in our publications to introduce speculative reasoning supporting a new understanding which has been later abandoned in favor of yet another "refinement", which itself has also been introduced using one of these words, they now carry some heavy, negative semantic baggage. Best to avoid them here when introducing a line of deductive reasoning.
    It is interesting to do a word search in the WTLib on each of these words and phrases to see how often they have been linked with teachings we no longer accept as true.

    • Reply by Jahmasin on 2022-01-18 09:30:24

      from WOL ...these numbers are controlled......if you search for Jehovah (just in Bibles) it comes up only 620 times
      Jesus (just in Bibles) comes up exactly the same number 620 times.
      *Note: these are the numbers from ALL the Bible translation that JW.org list AND the "j" is in lower case. "jehovah" "jesus" Why???
      
      evidently 4,790 
      undoubtedly 1,223
      refinement 71
      refinements 81
      without a doubt 328
      it is evident 624

      • Reply by Jahmasin on 2022-01-20 09:18:55

        I must make a correction......the numbers that are given in my last post are deceptive ......and proves further the deception of JW.org....because these numbers are the number of PAGES that the words are found on in the publications. Page 5 of 4,790 pages of "evidently". Which makes the case against them even worse.
        
        Also with reference to Jehovah and Jesus.....620 PAGES EACH.....bizard that they are the EXACT number of pages each.
        
        In my defence (not that I need one) they deceive by saying "results" of the word that is being searched for. Deception because we are not looking for the amount of pages we are looking for how many times the word is found in the writings or the Bible.
        
        I apologize for the error.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-21 08:12:46

  It's true that using the words "clearly" and "evidently" might get you a job in the writing department, but they don't carry the same weight around here unless the evidence is fully presented.
  Let's start by addressing the idea that the events of Matt 25:34-40 describe Jehovah's Witnesses assisting a core group of anointed in their midst by following their direction in the preaching work.
  Look at Jesus words without preconception. Why would he describe the actions in terms of common charity if he was primarily referring to assisting with the Christian command to preach the gospel?
  Also why does the true meaning of their actions seem to be unknown to the sheep? Would that be true of JW's and their preaching, or have they been led to fully expect a reward based upon their actions?
  Jesus appears to be making some powerful points that we obscure by hijacking the meaning to fit our doctrine. We will not always know who Jesus' brothers are. When we act in a Christian way toward ALL, especially the lowly and those in need, we are fulfilling the law of the Christ. There is nothing in the account that says that those who inherit the kingdom are not also brothers of Jesus.
  Note that in the following verse Jesus does not even use the term "my brothers", but just convicts the goats because they did not do the right thing to "one of these least ones". If the meaning were truly as we claim, then why would Jesus not condemn the goats for "not supporting his brothers"?
  Our whole doctrine surrounding these verses relies on two words in v40. Without those we would have no basis on which to claim it is talking about a two-tier system. But look at how many verses there are in which we have to assume that Jesus meant something quite different to what he said in order to make the square peg appear to fit the round hole.
  Take a look at the latter half of Matt 10. In your interpretation would you say that this is talking about "tier 1 Christians", "tier 2 Christians", or both? Note that in v32 Jesus says "Everyone, then, that confesses union with me before men, I will also confess union with him before my Father who is in the heavens". Can we confess union with Christ if we are not of the Calvinist elect? If you buy into that philosophy then the answer is no, not according to 1 Thes 4:16.
  Now move on to Matt 10:40-42. Using the same reasoning as you did for Matt 25 it must be worded this way based on a two-tier system right? It is talking about ones who receive Jesus' disciples and act in a charitable way to them. Therefore this group cannot themselves be Jesus disciples can they? Do you see how awkward such a reading becomes? v41 in particular presents a problem.
  (Matthew 10:41) He that receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and he that receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward.
  In other words the ones who act in the right way towards Jesus disciples receive the same reward as Jesus disciples. Surely they cannot receive the same reward unless they actually become his disciples as a result of this interaction. Therefore what is really being described here is not two distinct groups, but rather the way in which Christianity would grow by people's acceptance of those who Jesus sent forth, and those people in turn would become Christian - not just in name, but in word and deed.
  And so it is with Matt 25. Jesus does not appear to be obscurely hiding a secret about a two-tier system. He is revealing what it fundamentally means to BE Christian.

  • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-21 08:22:28

    As Apollos points out, our entire interpretation of the "sheep and goats" parable is based on the particular meaning we give to the words "my brothers". By teaching that this refers only to a class of Christian with a heavenly hope, we are forced to conclude that the sheep are not of this class--not "his brothers".
    However, consider his own words on the subject of who is his brother:
    (Matthew 12:48-50) .?.?.As an answer he said to the one telling him: “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49?And extending his hand toward his disciples, he said: “Look! My mother and my brothers! 50?For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-21 08:30:52

  Urbanus,
  In Matthew 25 Jesus twice says "these," both when speaking of his brothers and the little ones. Where in the text are "these" in view for Jesus to utilize this pronoun when referring to them if they are distinct from the individual sheep?
  Steve

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-21 09:20:36

Will all Christians rule and kings and priests of God - for 1000 years and forever?
Over whom will they rule? Faithless and un-righteous mankind? Hardly.
So there are two classes. (The term tier-system belittles the salvation they receive.)

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-21 09:50:02

  Read Revelation 20. It is indeed the wicked whom they rule over, for at the end of that time the wicked turn on the Christians and are destroyed.
  For forever, they will rule over those given life who were not Christian.
  Steve

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-21 09:50:34

  I'm not sure that "tier" is any worse than "class".
  (James 2:4) YOU have class distinctions among yourselves ..
  Different context I grant you, but the use of "class" in society now often has a negative connotation, and that was true in the first century congregation too.

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-21 12:42:59

Isn't it true that Rev 20 depicts events on the Earth, or at least from an Earthly viewpoint? And the tent of God comes down from heaven, no?
Psalm 37:
9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. 10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
Rev 20:
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
So whether we call them classes or tiers, there are three groups, one of which is eliminated, leaving two.

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-21 16:57:46

  I fail to understand your reasoning. Yes, the wicked will be destroyed, but this isn't fully accomplished until after the thousands years, during which many wicked remain. During this time Christians rule over them.
  After the thousands years and judgement, those non-Christians given life in the second resurrection will be ruled over.
  In neither case have you demonstrated the existence of a second class of Christians.
  Steve

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-21 17:55:31

(Isaiah 65:20) “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.
Evil will not be long tolerated by Christ as King and Judge.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-21 18:50:16

  That is most certainly true. But in any scenario (including yours) all of humanity is not going to be sinless from day 1 of the 1000 year reign. So clearly this cannot mean that people will be struck down for their first sin after armaggedon. Therefore Christ as judge will evidently be determining whether a person has become irredeemable, and if so his opportunity for everlasting life will be revoked at that point. Would you not agree?

Comment by Ruiz on 2013-03-21 19:10:40

It sounds liyou seem to agree with 2 individuals that run a website called ANOINTED JW.ORG

Comment by Gedalizah on 2013-03-22 08:11:14

If we are exploring the possibility that our belief in two distinctly different outcomes for the faithful (ie heavenly immortal life and earthly everlasting life) may be incorrect, we need to find a satisfactory explanation for Jesus' reference to John the Baptizer viz “one who is least in the kingdom of heavens is greater than he”? We've always understood that Jesus is here teaching that those of mankind who died without having had the opportunity to put faith in the ransoming power of his shed blood cannot be eligible for the reward of life in the heavenly kingdom. This seems to be consistent only with a “two outcomes” doctrine. How else might it be understood?
We can hardly rationalise Jesus' words by reasoning that the earthly Paradise may be regarded as “heavenly” …. why would a martyr like John be regarded as the least one in such a Paradise?

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-22 08:41:22

  That is not an issue. Jesus said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will even be there at Matthew 8:11. Jesus was comparing those born of women, which is everyone now, with those in the kingdom, which will be everyone then. His point was simply that the greatest one in the present age is less than last in the new one.
  Steve

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-22 09:06:28

  Steve beat me to this as I was just in the process of replying. He put it very succinctly, but perhaps I can expand on that with some evidence that this is likely what Jesus was saying.
  (Matthew 11:11) Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
  (Matthew 14:10-13) and he sent and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 And his head was brought on a platter and given to the maiden, and she brought it to her mother. 12 Finally his disciples came up and removed the corpse and buried him and came and reported to Jesus. 13 At hearing this Jesus withdrew from there by boat into a lonely place for isolation; but the crowds, getting to hear of it, followed him on foot from the cities.
  There seems to be a timing issue with our interpretation that Jesus words in Matt 11:11 meant that John could not enter the kingdom of the heavens.
  Now granted, in chapter 14 Matthew is reporting in the "past perfect" (correct me if I'm wrong on that Meleti) so the exact timing of the death of John in relation to the speech in Matt 11 is uncertain as far as I can see. However, unless someone can show me otherwise, it appears more likely that John was still alive. At the very least Jesus does not receive the news that John is dead until 14:13, which must be chronologically later than 11:11.
  It's possible Jesus was making a statement based upon foreknowledge, but the meaning of that would have been lost on his immediate audience. The valid alternative to that understanding is just as Steve said.
  The context of Matt 11:11 is that the crowds had recognized John's divinely ordained authority. He was to them the greatest man of their age spiritually speaking. However, once in heaven even the least of those who would follow Jesus and receive the reward would be greater than that.
  All that having been said, I do not deny that it is possible that many who consider themselves Christian right now may end up living on earth. Matt 11:12 makes it clear that the opportunity to press forward to the goal of the kingdom of heavens was open as John began to announce the Messiah. This did not mean that pre-Christians could not be resurrected to heaven after the way was opened by Jesus death, but simply that they would not have been aware of the hope and therefore were not consciously pressing towards it. Many today are not pressing towards it because they have been convinced by men that such a hope is not available to them. Therefore life on earth for these ones may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  • Reply by saraybach54 on 2013-03-22 12:07:44

    "But I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens..." Matthew 8:11

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-22 08:53:05

Just a speculation or thought experiment (likely subject to punishment by the thoguht-police):
The numbers of partakers has grown by just a few hundred per year. But if the ideas found here and elsewhere are the product of spirit-directed correction, which from time-to-time moves upward through the organization rather than downward, results in a doubling each year, then we have 2013 - 24,000; 2014 - 48,000; 2015 - 96,000 arriving at Dec 6, 2015, the 40th anniversary of the installation of the Govering Body in control of the organization.
Then we will all have to confront the coming of 2016 with the prospect of 192,000 partakers. And what you ask at the outset, "Literal or symbolic" will be settled.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-22 09:09:16

  You might also consider that the number started to decline in the mid-30's when it was first proposed that a large group was not destined for heaven. The number started to climb again in 2006 when the 30's cut-off date was abandoned.
  Spirit directed or the power of human suggestion?

Comment by Gedalizah on 2013-03-22 09:33:57

But this latter reasoning suggests that pre-Christian faithful ones are in a sense better off not knowing about the heavenly hope (in consequence making no effort to gain it) than the faithful in the Christian age who become aware of the heavenly hope and yet become convinced by sincere Bible study that such a hope is not open to him. Counter-intuitive at the very least, surely?

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-22 09:44:12

  No effort to obtain it?
  Perhaps a rereading of Hebrew 11 would adjust that thought. They may not have known exactly what they were going to obtain but I must disagree with the "no effort" portion.
  We are the first to point out that sincerity itself is insufficient (Rom 10:2).
  Luke 12:48 indicates that those who did not fully understand the will of the master will neither gain the full prize, nor will they be beaten with the greatest severity.

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-22 09:49:03

  That assumes Christians have a hope of living forever in heaven. :)
  Steve

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-22 09:38:18

Worth noting also Apollos that all eight of the Governing Body members are of the new partaker group. That might be a good starting point for re-thinking established doctrine.

Comment by Gedalizah on 2013-03-22 09:43:38

Also, having known a Witness who "came into the truth" in the late 1920's, I've heard it said that from around 1900 onwards there were - even then - some who felt "different" and who felt uncomfortable taking the emblems. It all seems very hard to rationalise with many of the comments on this post.

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-22 09:49:47

  This is something that puzzled me too, until I read a good portion of the published articles leading up to and during that time. When you understand the evolution of this doctrine and consider that people were reading this specific material (which is not presenting the doctrine exactly as we understand it now) you will begin to get some perspective on why you might have felt exactly the same way if you had recently taken an interest in the IBSA.

Comment by Gedalizah on 2013-03-22 11:08:45

And yet and yet .... does not the inexorable force of HS "bear witness with the spirit " - in an unmistakable way - for those whom Jehovah selects for the privilege of being joint-heirs with Christ?
As Apollos reminded me, sincerity alone is insufficient to gain the prize. Equally, effort and hard work are insufficient, since our salvation is by faith, not works. So what is the determining factor? - in the end it is Jehovah's choosing, and that alone - such choosing is made unmistakable by HS. It follows that no human should tell (or teach ) another whether or not they have a heavenly hope and a requirement to partake of emblems - that is Jehovah's work alone.
Surely we can't "reason ourselves" into believing that our hope is heavenly - if HS didn't tell us loud and clear, it didn't tell us at all.
So, on the whole, I'm still with the "two outcomes" view.

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-22 11:43:16

  Gedalizah,
  Are Christians Abraham's seed?
  Steve

• Reply by saraybach54 on 2013-03-22 12:26:10

  With respect...
  Yet another scripture used out of context...
  The whole of Romans 8 is demonstrating the contrast between fleshly men and spiritual men...
  "For the minding of the flesh... means enmity with God,... So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:6-8

• Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-03-22 13:08:39

  It follows that no human should tell (or teach ) another whether or not they have a heavenly hope and a requirement to partake of emblems – that is Jehovah’s work alone.
  Surely we can’t “reason ourselves” into believing that our hope is heavenly – if HS didn’t tell us loud and clear, it didn’t tell us at all.
  ....................................
  1) Should a human tell or teach another whether or not they have a heavenly hope?
  It was part of Paul's gospel message. Paul was human. If the answer to your question is no, then Paul was out of line. It was the holy spirit that did the calling for sure, but the teaching as to the implication of that calling was delivered as part of the preaching and teaching work ... by humans.
  2) Should a human tell or teach another whether they are required to partake of the emblems?
  No, I don't think so. I think the answer would be apparent if a person was to read the Bible without preconception. But it would still be a personal decision. The real question is whether a human should talk someone out of that requirement.
  3) Surely we can’t “reason ourselves” into believing that our hope is heavenly
  We reason ourselves into many things. We reason ourselves into belief in God and His Son, belief in His Word, the hope of a resurrection. Why would we not reason on God's Word to "reason ourselves into" what the hope might be for Christians?
  4) if HS didn’t tell us loud and clear, it didn’t tell us at all.
  I would need you to expand on this point before I could respond fully. The spirit most certainly lead us in this matter. What you mean by "loud and clear" is presumably based upon an interpretation of Rom 8:16. If so then we might have a whole separate discussion about that scripture in the full context of Romans chapter 8. In particular I would be interested in how one might understand 8:13,14 if the number of those being talked about is limited to a select few.
  Apollos

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-22 14:53:49

Surely when Paul discussed the observance of the Lord's Evening Meal, it was with the expectation of all members of the congregations partaking. His reference to "partaking un-worthily" was in the manner of eating and drinking, and not basic qualification to partake.
Who should partake is a different subject than how many should partake. If 144,000 is not literal, then the argument for limited partaking - even 12 thousand out of 17 million - no longer fits the scriptures.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-03-22 15:09:55

  Even if the number of 144,000 is literal, it doesn't mean that not all Christians should partake. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that only those who go to heaven are allowed to partake.

  • Reply by Glenn on 2013-03-22 18:50:22

    MEDIATOR and the New Covenant
    The Society has taught that only the 144,000 are to par-take of the emblems and Jesus only mediates and died for them.
    "He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members. " Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11
    Likewise, the Greater Moses, "Jesus knew that he was going to purchase these anointed ones with his own blood, so he fittingly referred to them collectively as his slave." Watchtower 1993 May 1 p.16
    Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" pp.10-11
    "Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians? ... So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31
    ? Is Jesus the “mediator” only for anointed Christians?
    The term “mediator” occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
    Moses was the “mediator” of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the “mediator of a new covenant” between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God” that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the “one mediator between God and men.” (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word “mediator” in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is “mediator.” So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.
    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the “little flock” of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under “Mediator”; also God’s “Eternal Purpose” Now Triumphing for Man’s Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading “Leading the Way to a New Covenant”; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading “The New Covenant.” WT. 1979 4/1 pg.31
    Is this correct since the bible seems to clearly state otherwise?
    John 3: 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.
    1 Timothy 2;5,6 'For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself-a ransom for all,
    Hebrews 9;28, Acts 13;38-39, Romans 3;21-25 Hebrews 7;25-27
    So I attempted to find the correct understanding behind this teaching and if this is correct and here is what I found. I went to their CD library and looked at all their info about the subject and then researched even more since this opens up a can of worms. First I searched under the heading of 'Mediator', then the term 'spiritual Israel', 'Israel of god', 'New Covenant', 'little flock', etc., etc.
    One way I could compare their understanding and its accuracy is to compare the New Covenant with that of the Old Covenant [Hebrews 9;14,15] [Ga. 3;26] made with Israel after they had just been delivered out of Egypt. This is what they say about 'house of Israel'-'Israel of god' and 'the spiritual Israel'.
    Wt 1979 Nov 15th pg27
    “MEDIATOR” TO HOW MANY?
    11 However, was God making the new covenant with the natural, fleshly “house of Israel” and the natural, fleshly “house of Judah”? How could that be possible, inasmuch as the natural Jews of those two houses had violently rejected the prospective Mediator of that new covenant and were, as a nation, celebrating the Pentecostal festival on the appointed day at the temple in Jerusalem? God could not do so. He had in mind to conclude the new covenant with the newly born Christian Israel, the spiritual Israel, it having its birth on that very Pentecostal day when the “holy spirit fell upon” the baptized disciples of Jesus Christ, about 120 of them. (Acts 11:15) These had waited, not at the temple, but in an upper room in Jerusalem. There those disciples, already immersed in water, were begotten by God’s spirit to become his spiritual children, “the Israel of God.” As such they were introduced into the new covenant through the heavenly Mediator, Jesus Christ, the Prophet greater than Moses.—Acts 2:1-36; Joel 2:28, 29; John 3:3, 5; Gal. 6:16.
    Jehovah rejected the literal nation of Israel Jer. 31;35-37 so the terms listed above in my understanding, is just used to describe the new Spiritual Nation, 'Israel of God' of people that are not literally of one race or a literal nation. Rom 9;6-8 Ephesian.2;19-21 Ga 6;16
    The Society then infers now or at one time, that the 'other-sheep' or 'great crowd' is not of the 'Israel of God' or spiritual Israel but alien residents.
    "They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."-1 Pet. 2:9. Yet they do benefit from the operation of the new covenant. They benefit from this just as, in ancient Israel, the "alien resident" benefited from residing in among the Israelites who were in the Law covenant.-Ex. 20:10; Le. 19:10, 33, 34; Rev. 7:9-15. To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites." Watchtower 1979 Nov 15 p.27 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men"
    "Since a number of these faithful foreigners, or alien residents, are viewed as foreshadowing the great crowd today, their situation is of interest to us. 13 Such ones were proselytes, dedicated worshipers of Jehovah under the Mosaic Law who were separated from the nations along with the Israelites. (Leviticus 24:22) They offered sacrifices, kept clear of false worship, and abstained from blood, just as the Israelites did." Watchtower 1995 Jul 1 p.17 "The Israel of God" and the "Great Crowd"
    Worldwide security 1986 pg10 18 In ancient times, there were non-Jews, such as the Nethinim and the sons of non-Israelite servants of Solomon, who were associated with the nation of Israel. (Ezra 2:43-58; 8:17-20) Similarly today, there are men and women who are wholly dedicated to God through Jesus Christ but who are not spiritual Israelite s. They are, however, associated with the remnant of spiritual Israel because of dedicating themselves to Jehovah God through Jesus Christ, “who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:6) Today, these far outnumber the 144,000 spiritual Israelite s, who are to inherit the heavenly Kingdom.
    But if you go back and look at the old law arrangement the Aliens Resident could par-take during the passover and live under the old covenant they just had to first be circumcised and then agree to live by the rules of the law. Exodus 12;48
    They the Society even confirm this.
    "The terms of the Law covenant allowed for persons of all national backgrounds to come into membership of the congregation of Israel by accepting the true worship of Jehovah and becoming circumcised The alien resident who had become a circumcised worshiper was bound to one law with the Israelites, that is, to obey all the terms of the Law covenant." Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 p.72 Alien Resident
    As I research even more, another understanding that the Society seems to have concerning only the Anointed to par-take was their thought that Jesus made a covenant with the apostles for a kingdom and to be joint heirs with him to be priests and kings.
    Wt. 1985 2/15?
    9 There is something else that should not be overlooked. Jesus discussed two related covenants with his disciples, “the new covenant” and ‘a covenant for a kingdom.’ (Luke 22:20, 28-30) Both covenants had to do with the partakers’ being in line to share as priests and kings with Christ Jesus. But in Israel no circumcised alien resident could ever become a priest or a king. In this respect, also, we find a distinction between the Passover feast in Israel and the Lord’s Evening Meal.
    Is this incorrect? If you look at Luke 22;28-30 this discussion with the apostles about a kingdom for them was at a different time and after the discussion about the New Covenant. Also this discussion for a kingdom is also discussed in Matthew 19;27-30 and Luke 12;32 showing it was discussed at even an earlier time altogether before the New Covenant meal. The Greek words [diatithemai, dietheto] used in the verse Luke 28;29 do not mean covenant, but the more accurate words in English is appoint or promise and this is what other bible translations use. [realized this using my new bible app.] So this later discussion is not about the New Covenant at all as it would seem, its a promise made by Jesus and does not need to be mediated.
    The Society also likes to use the statement 'other-sheep' to show another group and to separate the groups into two, 144k class [going to heaven] and then the rest of us. But is this correct, because if you look at when Jesus was talking about this 'other-sheep' he had not mentioned or promised the kingdom yet to his apostles.
    Going back to John 9:40 you'll see that his discussion of the sheep started with a question that was asked by the Pharisees ('But when some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this, they asked, We aren't blind also, are we?' Now, Jesus obviously didn't mean that the Pharisees were in this fold [pen] if it meant a destiny of heavenly life. So, it is clear that the true meaning of his illustration was that the first fold [pen] represented an entire group, among whom the Pharisees were included. So logically he was actually talking about the coming gentiles and how they would soon enter the same flock. Again John 10:16 he says 'one flock, one Shepard' Ephesians 2;11-22 and 3;6 Heb.2;11-22 Gal 3;8
    And look at all the scriptures that could be prophesying to the coming of the gentiles..... Psalms 22:27....86:9 Isaiah 2:2....11:10 ...49:6 Haggai 2:7 Zechariah 8:23
    The Society also likes to quote. 1Peter 2;9 'But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy-nation but look at these similarities Exodus 19;6 'And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy-nation'. These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel. And we know from other scriptures that the literal nation of Israel was also a chosen race. And check out just a couple a verses below at 1Peter 2;11 'Beloved, I exhort You as aliens and temporary residents'?
    The last subject I could find was the society mentioned in an article [below] that since he told them they were to drink the wine meaning his blood that again it was reserved for just the anointed. The Scripture does not imply drinking the blood but rather it symbolizes a pouring out as a sacrifice. Luke 22;20 Matt. 26; 26-28 Asv. Esv. Niv.
    Wt 1985 2/15? the other sheep and the lords evening meal
    8 Nevertheless, the Passover was not strictly a type of the Lord’s Evening Meal. Why not? When the Passover was instituted in Egypt, the flesh of the roasted lamb was eaten, but none of the blood of the Passover lamb was eaten. In contrast, however, when Jesus instituted the Memorial of his death he specifically instructed those then present to eat his flesh and drink his blood, symbolized by the bread and the wine. (Exodus 12:7, 8; Matthew 26:27, 28) In this very important aspect—the blood—the Passover was not a type of the Lord’s Evening Meal.
    Sons of God
    Then the question arises, 'Aren't just those who are chosen for heavenly life the sons of God?' Well, notice what Paul wrote about who the true sons of God are:
    Galatians 3:26-29, 'The fact is; You're all sons of God because of your faith in the Anointed Jesus. All who were baptized into the Anointed One have put on the Anointed One. So, there aren't any Jews or Greeks, slaves or freemen, males or females, because you're all united in the Anointed Jesus. And if you're [part] of the Anointed One, you're really the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise.'
    Then John wrote a 1 John 5:1, 'Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Anointed One has been fathered by God.'
    So, regardless of what some may teach;
    If we have faith in Jesus, we are God's sons
    When we are baptized into Jesus, we become the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise
    Are there any that claim to be Christians who would deny faith in Jesus? We would hope not.
    One other note Romans 8:14-17 is used by the Society to denote the idea that the heirs are also heirs of Christ and then are going to heaven, only heaven. But if you look at the scriptures especially 17 it doesn’t seem to say this;
    14. For all who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God. 15.For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, 'Abba! Father!' 16.The spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
    Verse 17 seems to indicate a condition to be joint heirs with Christ, Provided we suffer with him.
    Check out Romans 3:31, 4:16-23, 5:18, 18-26
    If we look at the old covenant its seems clear , Aaron was the high priest, Moses was the mediator, Jesus replaced them both. The offspring of Aaron and Moses were to be the high-priests of the inner sanctuary and were referred to as the Anointed [Exodus 29;29] and were to be in the inner temple and attend to all the issues of the inner-temple. Today the true Anointed represent them. The Levite’s which were not the offspring of Moses and Aaron were similar to that of the faithful and discreet slave by teaching and administrating [judges] the law. All Israel including circumcised alien residents were to par-take at passover. If they did not bad things would happen to them.
    Just like Israel under the original law we as a people that except Jesus
    as our messiah and get baptized [may replace circumcision] we all become one Spiritual Nation, Israel of God and all must, like Jesus says par-take of the emblems to show appreciation for what he did and receive life. [John 6;51] The Levites were not separate of Israel and neither are we separate from the One Flock. Jesus was a ransom for all. john 6;48-56 1corth 11;24-26 Hebrews 9;14-18 acts 13;38-39 Romans 3;21-30 Hebrews 7;25-27 1 Tim. 2;5 acts 2;38
    According to John 6; 53-54 Jesus says 'unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves. Anyone who eats My flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day,'.

Comment by saraybach54 on 2013-03-23 03:52:59

Fascinating discussion Brother Meliti...!!!
Isn't interesting that the Jury's still out on the conclusions...?!
Maybe a demonstration of the power of indoctrination...? Ultimately, we can only follow our own conscience's and continue to pray to our Heavenly Father for His guidance...
Bit thank you for bringing this into the open... and to all for their thought provoking comments...

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-23 18:00:15

Side issue - when is Nisan 14 in 2013?
According to astronomical tables, the new moon nearest the equinox in Jerusalem took place at 9:51pm local time on March 11, 2013.
The next evening, the moon set at 6:33 pm, some 20 hours and 41 minutes later, and 49 minutes after the sunset of March 12.
The Jews acquired their calendar in Babylon, where astronomers/priests had long since developed eclipse tables for the moon with a precise knowledge of lunar movements.
As it is often cloudy, rainy or even snowing in Jerusalem the calendar wise priests would know the facts without visual confirmation.
Therefore, the Jewish priests would have set Nisan 1 on March 12.
March 12 - Nisan 1
March 13 - Nisan 2
March 14 - Nisan 3
March 15 - Nisan 4
March 16 - Nisan 5
March 17 - Nisan 6
March 18 - Nisan 7
March 19 - Nisan 8
March 20 - Nisan 9
March 21 - Nisan 10
March 22 - Nisan 11
March 23 - Nisan 12
March 24 - Nisan 13
March 25 - Nisan 14 Jews eat the passover dinner
March 26 - Nisan 15 Jehovah's Witnesses Memorial
Therefore, all of you that wish to partake according to the scriptures might wish to do so on Monday evening after sun set.

• Reply by Steve on 2013-03-23 19:36:34

  I think this raises another issue, which perhaps Meleti would like to post on: How often should we partake?
  Steve

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-24 07:32:17

Agreed Steve - It is a worthy topic to explore, closely related to the when question.
A word of explanation about the Jews. They will eat the Passover Seder after sundown on Monday, March 25th, 2013.
The Reasoning Book we considered in the School program about who partakes and when noted that modern Jews do this on Nisan 15 on their calendar, which goes back to Rabbi Hillel II. They also set Nisan 1 on the worldwide moment of astronomical conjunction of the moon and sun. This would have been 19 hours 51 minutes Universal Coordinated Time (Greenwich, England) on March 11th, according the the US Naval Observatory.
Thus in their calendar reckoning, which is no longer the Babylonian Calendar, they are eating the Seder on Nisan 15.
Nisan, Tishri and all the other month names are Babylonian. See Insight and Aid books on "Calendar."

Comment by Urbanus on 2013-03-24 11:48:34

Meleti- There is much additional research on these topics that I would like to share with you and this forum. Please contact me at the e-mail provided.

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-05-01 19:58:23

According to our figures, there were 90,000 at the 1925 memorial; all partakers. There have been additional tens of thousands since there. There were 8,000 Jews baptized at the start of the work in the first century. Countless thousands of Gentiles followed. There have been an untold number of faithful ones down through the centuries. With figures like these, how can we still be sticking to the ridiculous idea that 144,000 is a literal number?

• Reply by Jahmasin on 2022-01-18 09:05:11

  I wrote my comment and then read this one......same thinking.

Comment by A Great Crowd of Other Sheep | Beroean Pickets on 2013-05-13 20:50:02

[…] which cannot be numbered.  Is 144,000 a literal number or a symbolic one?  We’ve already made a good case for considering this number to be symbolic.  If that doesn’t convince you of the possibility, do […]

Comment by Who Should Partake? | Beroean Pickets on 2013-05-22 16:05:38

[…] We cannot  prove with certainty that Rev. 7:4 is referring to a literal number of individuals.   (See post: 144,000—Literal or Symbolic) […]

Comment by zionsreveille on 2013-08-02 14:25:58

Truth does not change. Any time you have "new light" or new understandings it means the people who followed the old understandings were obviously being misled or following false info. Truth is constant and divine information has no need of being revised. The hundreds of subtle changes that the JW organization have made is evidence that there is not divine inspiration. In reality, C.T. Russell was closer to the truth than the men who seized what he started and added countless Pharisaical laws. They are hypocrites because they sin also. In fact we are told that those who say "we can see" are actually the real blind ones because they try to put on airs like the pharisees. The truth is larger than any organization and involves the entire world. Israel was not the only nation that was to be redeemed. Their purpose was to bless the other nations by being set apart as kings and Priests. We know how the story progresses. The other nations were never given the laws because they would learn them during the thousand years (from the anointed kings). All religions seemto have a "join us or die" mentality and Rutherford started this. Russell knew better than this, he knew his God Only those who consistently refuse to make progress and deliberatel reject the full truth once it is dispensed in full in the millennium will have a problem. Jesus picked common fishermen for Apostles. He didnt pick people from the synagogues or (churches) and the second coming will be a second gathering of his anointed based on heart condition (like his first choosing. It will not be limited to any one denomination, just like it won't be any one tribe or nation. The denominations of this world are incidental and all have various flaws and strengths, but these have not waited on holy spirit, they have taken it upon themselves to interpret and evangelize without waiting for the revealing of the sons of god that occurs in th Revelation period. They repeat the mistake of Peter who tried to cast lots for a new apostle instead of just waiting for the messiah to pick a new one. They should have waited for Paul instead of choosing Matthias by their own methods. We should all be waiting instead of causing division by sectarian organizations that will never be united until the fullness of spirit occurs during the second outpouring. Impatient humans repeat the same mistakes...instead of waiting for spirit.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-08-02 15:19:25

  We appreciate your viewpoint, but it is not proper for us to charge sin to another. We can, indeed, we must judge actions as good or bad. However, the heart motivation of another is left up to Jehovah to determine.
  All the forum participates agree on the infallibility of God's inspired Word, the Bible. It is a requirement to anyone's continuing to participate in our interchange of Bible study research and mutual encouragement.
  Since there is nothing in Scripture to say that Peter and the other apostles "made a mistake" by casting lots to select someone to take the place of Judas, it would be improper to suggest otherwise. Likewise, who are we to suggest that Paul or another would have been a better choice? Jesus could and would have nullified any decision as to the appointment of the twelfth if he disagreed. He is the head of the congregation after all. That he didn't speaks all that needs to be spoken on the subject.

Comment by Are We Apostates? | Beroean Pickets on 2014-05-22 00:08:54

[…] the number 144,000 mentioned at Rev. 7:4 and 14:1 is symbolic and not to be taken as literal. Those of the “great […]

Comment by Dieter G on 2015-05-28 08:22:00

Hi,
To confine the 144000 to any one denomination, let alone J Witnesses, is stretching a point that never existed since the early Christians amalgamated with the Roman state.
That number is real and small enough to form government. As is common on our once beautiful planet, those constituting the governing entity in virtually all nations, kingdoms and tribes, are a tiny microcosm, particularly in democracies, relative to the governed. That's just my intro.
It was likewise only a little flock of Jesus' disciples who were to be given the Kingdom by God (Luke 12:32). After initially concentrated in Jerusalem and related synagogue environs in the wider Diaspora, they were scattered at the Roman onslaught in 70CE into isolated groups without a central guiding hub, while still a little flock, collectively the bride of Christ and the Israel of God.
When their Lord did not return as they had eagerly anticipated, in fear of their lives and losing their place with the believers and the Roman state, as happened before John 11:48), they compromised, amalgamated with the Romans, which Roman state of affairs has continued to this day 2015.
The upshot of all this is that the common denominator of the entire Christian church/congregation is still the original Bride of Christ, however much they may have collectively compromised their vows of betrothal to their bridegroom.
Those anointed for their future, but temporary, role as Kings and Priests are now scattered like specks of Gold all over and within the Christian realm with their only identifier: Abraham's faith. Much like the old lady at the steps of the Temple in adulterous Israel (Ezekiel 16) when Jesus was presented there, faithful to the core (Luke 2:36-38), as were still some others in Israel at that time.
Thanks Dieter

Comment by shirl b on 2016-07-01 18:57:49

thank you I have left J W;s I have gone to 7th day Adventist Seems pretty good so far only been once but have read a lot of their info

• Reply by Ken Rosenberg on 2017-03-29 15:56:35

  I am sorry, but how on earth can you do something like that after learning what the Bible really teaches?
  The 1914 doctrine originated with 7th day adventists and they worship a cross.
  ????

  • Reply by Anonymous on 2017-09-09 12:01:46

    From the pan to the fire no religion is following God and Jesus

  • Reply by Eliud on 2018-06-16 03:48:38

    You’re certainly confusing between 1844 and 1914.
    The 1914 doctrine originated from the J witnesses. The Seventh Day Adventist have nothing to do with that.

    • Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2018-06-17 08:20:11

      I believe that the doctrine in its initial format came from Nelson Barbour, an SDA who influenced Russell and was the reason the latter got into prophetic chronology. By his total rejection of the ransom, Barbour met the 2 John 6-11 criteria for an antichrist, meaning that the prophetic chronology path that Russell started down on and which has caused witnesses so much pain and trouble was initiated by Satan.

Comment by Bret on 2016-11-28 17:55:35

I was a Jehovah's Witness for some 20+ years and served as an Elder for 12..
I left when I discovered that the teaching of the Ransom did not add up and that It was a partially taught as a substitutional "Ransom", that is that it covers everyone except those the Society doesn't want it to cover and it doesn't fit with Romans 5:18...
I discovered as well that the "Abrahamic Promise" runs like a golden thread throughout the entire scriptures and we Christians are heirs of that promise along with Abraham and all his offspring who are "sons of God" but we are grafted into this "Royal family" Gal 3:29, Rom 4:13, Rom 11:17-24
Therefore understanding that we Christians are in the spiritual lineage of Abraham based on faith and that along with those faithful men of old who were also "adopted" "Sons of God" have come to realize that we too will inherit a City along with them and the promise of the earth or land therefore there is no way "144,000" is literal. 12 apostles, 12 tribes, 12 foundations, 12 names 144 cubits in reference to the city New jerusalem all points to the completement of the Kingdom arrangement.
This Royal family of Faithful men and woman throughout the ages will inherit the Kingdom of God on earth not in Heaven....... Rev 5:10, Matt 5:5 hebrews 11:40

• Reply by Bret on 2016-11-28 18:01:00

  The Great Crowd then is not Christians in this age, but are those who after coming out of the Great Tribulation then begin to celebrate the festival of Booths which is symbolic as noted in Zach 14:16-21 Where even those who fought against Yahweh will have to learn obedience and beat their swords into plow shears Isiaih 2, Mal 2.... The will stand before the throne during the 1,000 years that is face judgement and during this period be lead to waters of fountains of life and wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb Rev 22:14....

Comment by Ken Rosenberg on 2017-03-29 15:59:49

Is the number of the 144,000, who are sealed out of the twelve tribes of Israel, merely figurative, because much of the book of Revelation is symbolic? (Rev. 7:4; 14:1-3) Who are the 144,000? Not every number that appears in Revelation is obviously figurative. Take for example Christ's letters to the Seven Congregations in Asia Minor. In this case the number seven is not figurative. There actually were seven such congregations; and his reprimand, that he addressed to five of them, is quite literal, not concealed in symbolic language. After all, how else could they heed his warning to repent if they did not understand his message? Is there a greater meaning to his letters? Undoubtedly, for we must allow that his counsel can apply also to all congregations today.
Consider also the numbers, along with other representative language, that appear at Revelation 21:9-14:
And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal-clear. 12 It had a great and lofty wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names were inscribed which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 The wall of the city also had twelve foundation stones, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
How can we sort through the above symbolic language, and make sense of it? First of all it helps to understand that it has to do with the 144,000, the Lamb's wife. "These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb." (Rev. 14:1-4; ESV) What things are figurative, and what is not? Joseph, when presented with a dream to interpret, responded: "Do not interpretations belong to God?" (Gen. 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20,21) Jehovah, who has caused these things to be recorded, certainly understands what these things mean; and apart from him we cannot understand any of "the deep things of God." (1 Cor. 2:10, 14; compare Matt. 13:11)
We know, of course, that Jesus is the “Lamb,” but obviously not a literal lamb. The lamb represents Jesus in the role of fulfilling God’s purpose. (John 1:29, 36; 1 Peter 1:19; Rev. 7:10, 14) Likewise, the Lamb’s "wife” is not a literal woman but applies to Jesus' disciples who are closely associated with their "husband," and he promised them that they will rule with him in his heavenly kingdom. (John 3:29; 17:24; 2 Cor. 11:2; Luke 22:28-30; Rev. 14:4; 19:7,8; 20:4, 6) They are “the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,” and are seen with their husband standing upon "Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.” (Heb. 12:22,23, 28; Rev. 14:1) The “holy city Jerusalem” belongs to God, just as it was said of ancient Jerusalem. (Psalms 48:1,2, 8; 135:21; Isaiah 24:23; Jer. 3:17; Rev. 22:3) The city, that is the Lamb's wife, comes down out of heaven from God because it is through them—as the holy ones under Christ Jesus—that God brings all his promised blessings upon his people. (Psalms 3:8; Dan. 7:13,14, 27; Rev. 21:2-4)
Please note that the figurative holy city has twelve foundation stones with the names of the twelve apostles on them. Is the number twelve in regards to the apostles figurative, or were there actually twelve of them? (Luke 6:13) Paul, in his letter to the congregation in Ephesus, had earlier described God's temple as having for its foundation “the apostles” and "prophets,” with Christ Jesus himself being the foundation cornerstone. Before a building can be constructed the foundation needs to be put in place first. That happened at Pentecost. (Eph. 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-6; Acts 1:15-2:4) The twelve apostles, as the primary stones of the foundation (Judas having been replaced with Matthias), together with "prophets," have been put in their respective position by God. (1 Cor. 12:28,29) How large is the foundation? Is its size uncertain, or did God determine in advance a fixed number that would provide the foundation?
Immediately after Adam's sin, God foretold the means by which he purposed to reconcile mankind again to himself. (Gen. 3:15) This was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. But God at the same time purposed to have faithful disciples of his Son share in his glory and rule with him in his future heavenly kingdom; each one chosen by God himself just as in the case of the twelve apostles, none of whom could have chosen themselves for this honor. (Matt. 11:11; Luke 11:50,51; John 6:44, 65; Heb. 5:4) The Scriptures explain that Christ Jesus, along with his bride, were foreordained "before the founding of the world." (Eph. 1:3-5, 11; 2 Thess. 2:13,14; 1 Peter 1:2, 20) That does not mean that every individual of them was foreordained millenniums before he was born; but the designated number of 144,000 certainly was. Although the apostle Paul understood that the foundation of God’s temple was not limited to the twelve apostles, yet there was no way for him to know the precise number of "prophets" who would eventually make up the completed foundation, for that information was not revealed until the apostle John received the Revelation more than thirty years later. When John saw "thrones, and those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. . . And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years," he saw 144,000 thrones and 144,000 kings sitting on them. (Rev. 20:4, 6)
God's covenant with Abraham promised that "by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves." (Gen. 26:4,5) Included in the "seed" was Jesus, the Messiah, and his future "bride." (Gal. 3:16, 29) Jehovah desired that the entire number of the bride of Christ Jesus would be chosen exclusively from among Abraham's seed, the Israelites. It was only because they as a nation refused to accept Jesus as the promised Seed that God determined to break off some of the natural branches [Jews] of this figurative holy tree [Christ Jesus and his bride], and replace them with [graft in] wild branches [people of the nations]. After all, how could someone who rejected Jesus then be chosen to become married to him as a wife? The very fact that God replaced some domestic branches with foreign branches in itself gives evidence that there is a predetermined fixed number of branches. (Romans 11:13-29) That is why Paul explains: "For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved." (Rom. 11:25,26) The purpose of Paul's extensive discussion on this topic was to explain that Jehovah did not break his promise to Abraham in that he rejected some of Abraham's natural descendants and replaced their glorious position with people of the nations, to complete the predetermined number of branches of the tree. The figurative tree has remained the same! The grafted in foreign branches have become part of the domestic tree and are producing fruit. (John 15:1-6) They are "the Israel of God," who are "sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (Gal. 6:15,16; Rev. 7:4)
How is it that they "did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. . . and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish"? (Rev. 14:4,5) Are they all males? In the heavens there is "neither male nor female." Therefore it does not matter what gender they are at present. (Gal. 3:28; 1 Cor. 15:44; Matt. 22:30) They are "virgins" in that they kept themselves without spot from the world and it's false worship—"Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots"—of which Satan is the ruler and god. (James 1:27; 4:4; Rev. 17:1,2, 5,6; John 12:31; 2 Cor. 4:4; 1 John 5:19; compare Ezek. 16:26-30) And neither did any of them receive the mark of the wild beast, either on their hand nor on the forehead. (Rev. 13:15-17; 20:4) There was no falsehood found in their mouths because they firmly and loyally stuck to God's word in all their teaching. Yes, they are all without blemish. (Matt. 15:6-9) Therefore we can have full confidence that God will bring the foretold blessings to mankind by means of them.
These are not to be confused with the present Governing Body of the Watchtower Society with its secular Corporations and many Associations; for these are closely identified with the "man of lawlessness." (2 Thess. 2:3-12) Those who were chosen but failed to measure up to God's righteous requirements, will not be among the ones standing with the Lamb upon the Mount Zion; for they will have been removed from the vine and "cast out as a branch and dried up, and pitched into the fire and burned." (John 15:6; Matt. 24:48-51) The four destructive winds of the earth will not be unleashed until the final one of the 144,000 has been sealed. The full foreordained number will be intact.
Who are the 144,000? They are the foundation of God's temple, and thus are an integral part of true worship, God's arrangement by which his people render sacred service to him that is acceptable. They have not chosen themselves as such, for everyone of them, as the "Lamb's wife," is chosen and put in their relative position by Jehovah, who puts his seal on them as belonging to him. (Heb. 5:4,5; Rom. 9:11, 16; 2 Tim. 1:9; Rev. 7:3,4; 14:1, 4) They are the "holy ones" who will rule in the kingdom of the heavens, along with the "son of man," by which God will bring blessings to his people. (Dan. 7:13,14, 21,22, 27; Heb. 9:14; Rev. 21:2-4)
Why is there seemingly so much confusion about the 144,000? Frankly, it should not surprise us that anyone not associated with God's household will not understand any of these things, just as Jesus said: "You have been given the chance to understand the secrets of the kingdom of heaven. It has not been given to outsiders. Everyone who has that kind of knowledge will be given more. In fact, they will have very much. If anyone doesn't have that kind of knowledge, even what little he has will be taken away from him." (Matthew 13:11,12, NIRV; compare 1 Cor. 2:7,8; Daniel 12:9,10)

Comment by Anonymous on 2017-12-28 21:52:37

I suppose, all considered, it is very possible that if 144,000 is a literal number. Perhaps in that they are taken from the "great crowd" who are "before the throne." Perhaps, for whatever reason(s) our Father chooses, have or will select from among this great crowd a 144,000 for special purpose. Let us not forget, there are clearly different levels of position, rank in heaven. There are the Cherubs and Seraph's, for instance. Before turning to sin, the angel who became Satan was described in Ezekiel as the "covering cherub," which denotes a special position in heaven that he evidently held.
The Seraph's that called out to one another in Isaiah's vision shouted in such a manner that it caused the doorposts to shake... something that brought fear to Isaiah. What might they may possess in power we do not know (including their "six" wings - figuratively as opposed to the "two" wings of the cherub... which also must denote a special capacity of sorts of which we do not know). Therefore, perhaps the 144,000 (if again, is literal) may be held by our Father for special assignment, in some capacity, to that of the "great crowd," in heaven.
We will have to wait and see!

Comment by Jahmasin on 2022-01-18 08:39:05

My objection .....from childhood...... to the number of 144,000 being literal is..we were taught that everyone from the time of the last supper until 1935 when the sealing had completed to those still partaking today (20,000 plus)......does any logical mind say "Surely there have been more than 144,000 who partook of the emblems in 2,000 years."?

Secular estimates of the world's population since the beginning of man's existence is 40 billion......let's cut that in half to 20 billion.......do you really think out of that number only 144,000 people from the time of Christ existed who were faithful to Christ? 3,000 baptized, 5,000 baptized and how many more not recorded in the Bible that started to follow Christ? 

It makes no sense to me!