Back in January, we showed that there is no Scriptural basis for our claim that the “little flock” in Luke 12:32 refers only to a group of Christians destined to rule in heaven while the “other sheep” at John 10:16 refers to another group with an earthly hope. (See Who’s Who? (Little Flock/Other Sheep) Of course, this in itself doesn’t disprove the teaching of a two-tier reward system for modern-day Christians, but only that these two terms cannot be used to support that teaching.
Now we come to another element of the teaching. The belief that the 144,000 depicted in Revelation chapters 7 and 14 is a literal number.
If it is literal, then there absolutely must be a two-tier system because there are millions of faithful Christians doing the Lord’s work today, never mind what has been accomplished over the past two millennia by countless others.
It should be noted that proving this number is not literal does not disprove the teaching that some Christians go to heaven while others remain on earth. That is a separate issue, and something for another discussion. All we wish to do in this post is establish the scriptural basis, if there is one, for our belief that the 144,000 pictured in the book of Revelation is a literal number, not a symbolic one.
On what basis do we teach that the number is literal? Is it because the Scriptures state it to be so? No. There is no scriptural declaration that establishes this number as literal. We arrive at this belief based on logical reasoning and deduction. If you would care to peruse our publications, you will learn that the key reason we believe the number should be taken literally is that it is contrasted with the indefinite number of the Great Crowd. (Rev. 7:9, w66 3/15 p. 183; w04 9/1 pp. 30-31) The logic goes like this: If we take the number as symbolic than making the number of the great crowd indefinite makes no sense. Only if the number, 144,000, is literal does it then makes sense to introduce a contrasting group of unknown number.
We are not going to argue that point or come up with an alternate theory here. Another time, perhaps. Our purpose here is only to establish if this teaching can be supported Scripturally.
One way to test the validity of a theory is to carry it forward to its logical conclusion.
Revelation 14:4 says that this literal number is sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Now we teach that this literal number is the sum total of the “Israel of God”[i]. (Gal. 6:16) The first question that comes to mind is, How can 144,000 be sealed out of the sons of Israel if the 144,000 comprise the entirety of the sons of Israel? Use of that turn of phrase would indicate a smaller group being selected from a larger one, would it not? Again, a subject for another discussion.
Next, we have a listing of the twelve tribes. Not a listing of the actual tribes because Dan and Ephraim are not listed. The tribe of Levi appears but was never listed with the original twelve and a new tribe of Joseph is added. (it-2 p. 1125) So this would refer in all likelihood to the Israel of God. James actually refers to the Christian Congregation as “the twelve tribes that are scattered about…” (James 1:1)
Now, it follows that if the 144,000 is a literal number, than dividing it into twelve groupings of 12,000 each, must likewise refer to literal numbers. Therefore, the 12,000 sealed out of the tribes of Reuben, of Gad, of Asher, and so forth, comprise literal numbers out of literal tribes. You cannot logically take a literal number out of a symbolic tribe, can you? How do you take a literal number of 12,000 individuals out of a metaphorical tribe of Joseph, for instance?
All this works if the entire thing is a metaphor. If the 144,000 is a symbolic number used as a large multiple of 12 to show that number’s application to a large number of individuals organized in a balanced, divinely constituted governmental arrangement, then the 12,000 likewise extends the metaphor to show that all sub-groups within it are equally represented and balanced.
However, if the 144,000 is literal, then the 12,000 must also be literal, and the tribes must be literal in some way. These tribes are not spiritual, but earthly, because the 12,000 are sealed out of each of them, and we know the sealing is done while these Christians are still in the flesh. Therefore, if we are to accept that the numbers are literal, then there must be some literal division of the Christian congregation into 12 groupings so that out of each grouping a literal number of 12,000 can be taken.
This is where our logical deductions must lead, if we are to hold to them. Or we could just accept that the number is symbolic and all this goes away.
Why all the fuss, you ask? Isn’t this a discussion for academics? A scholarly debate at best, with little real-world impact? Oh, that it were so. The fact is that this teaching forced us in the mid-1930s to create an ideology that pre-appoints one group of Christians as destined for heavenly glory and another for an earthly reward. It also has required the vast majority to ignore Jesus’ command to “keep doing this in remembrance of me” (Luke 22:19) and refrain from partaking the emblems. It has also made this second group believe that Jesus is not their mediator.
Maybe all that is true. We’re not going to argue it here. Perhaps in another post. However, it should now be clear that this entire structure of teaching and subsequent course of worship for Christians today, especially as we approach the Memorial of Christ’s Death, is based solely on an apparently flawed logical deduction about whether a number is literal or not.
If Jehovah wanted some of us to disregard a clearly stated command of this Son, our King, then wouldn’t he have made it clear to us in his Word that we were to do so?
My objection …..from childhood.….. to the number of 144,000 being literal is..we were taught that everyone from the time of the last supper until 1935 when the sealing had completed to those still partaking today (20,000 plus)……does any logical mind say “Surely there have been more than 144,000 who partook of the emblems in 2,000 years.”? Secular estimates of the world’s population since the beginning of man’s existence is 40 billion……let‘s cut that in half to 20 billion…….do you really think out of that number only 144,000 people from the time of Christ existed who were faithful to Christ? 3,000… Read more »
I suppose, all considered, it is very possible that if 144,000 is a literal number. Perhaps in that they are taken from the “great crowd” who are “before the throne.” Perhaps, for whatever reason(s) our Father chooses, have or will select from among this great crowd a 144,000 for special purpose. Let us not forget, there are clearly different levels of position, rank in heaven. There are the Cherubs and Seraph’s, for instance. Before turning to sin, the angel who became Satan was described in Ezekiel as the “covering cherub,” which denotes a special position in heaven that he evidently… Read more »
Is the number of the 144,000, who are sealed out of the twelve tribes of Israel, merely figurative, because much of the book of Revelation is symbolic? (Rev. 7:4; 14:1-3) Who are the 144,000? Not every number that appears in Revelation is obviously figurative. Take for example Christ’s letters to the Seven Congregations in Asia Minor. In this case the number seven is not figurative. There actually were seven such congregations; and his reprimand, that he addressed to five of them, is quite literal, not concealed in symbolic language. After all, how else could they heed his warning to repent… Read more »
I was a Jehovah’s Witness for some 20+ years and served as an Elder for 12.. I left when I discovered that the teaching of the Ransom did not add up and that It was a partially taught as a substitutional “Ransom”, that is that it covers everyone except those the Society doesn’t want it to cover and it doesn’t fit with Romans 5:18… I discovered as well that the “Abrahamic Promise” runs like a golden thread throughout the entire scriptures and we Christians are heirs of that promise along with Abraham and all his offspring who are “sons of… Read more »
The Great Crowd then is not Christians in this age, but are those who after coming out of the Great Tribulation then begin to celebrate the festival of Booths which is symbolic as noted in Zach 14:16-21 Where even those who fought against Yahweh will have to learn obedience and beat their swords into plow shears Isiaih 2, Mal 2…. The will stand before the throne during the 1,000 years that is face judgement and during this period be lead to waters of fountains of life and wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb… Read more »
thank you I have left J W;s I have gone to 7th day Adventist Seems pretty good so far only been once but have read a lot of their info
I am sorry, but how on earth can you do something like that after learning what the Bible really teaches?
The 1914 doctrine originated with 7th day adventists and they worship a cross.
????
From the pan to the fire no religion is following God and Jesus
You’re certainly confusing between 1844 and 1914.
The 1914 doctrine originated from the J witnesses. The Seventh Day Adventist have nothing to do with that.
I believe that the doctrine in its initial format came from Nelson Barbour, an SDA who influenced Russell and was the reason the latter got into prophetic chronology. By his total rejection of the ransom, Barbour met the 2 John 6-11 criteria for an antichrist, meaning that the prophetic chronology path that Russell started down on and which has caused witnesses so much pain and trouble was initiated by Satan.
Hi, To confine the 144000 to any one denomination, let alone J Witnesses, is stretching a point that never existed since the early Christians amalgamated with the Roman state. That number is real and small enough to form government. As is common on our once beautiful planet, those constituting the governing entity in virtually all nations, kingdoms and tribes, are a tiny microcosm, particularly in democracies, relative to the governed. That’s just my intro. It was likewise only a little flock of Jesus’ disciples who were to be given the Kingdom by God (Luke 12:32). After initially concentrated in Jerusalem… Read more »
[…] the number 144,000 mentioned at Rev. 7:4 and 14:1 is symbolic and not to be taken as literal. Those of the “great […]
Truth does not change. Any time you have “new light” or new understandings it means the people who followed the old understandings were obviously being misled or following false info. Truth is constant and divine information has no need of being revised. The hundreds of subtle changes that the JW organization have made is evidence that there is not divine inspiration. In reality, C.T. Russell was closer to the truth than the men who seized what he started and added countless Pharisaical laws. They are hypocrites because they sin also. In fact we are told that those who say “we… Read more »
We appreciate your viewpoint, but it is not proper for us to charge sin to another. We can, indeed, we must judge actions as good or bad. However, the heart motivation of another is left up to Jehovah to determine. All the forum participates agree on the infallibility of God’s inspired Word, the Bible. It is a requirement to anyone’s continuing to participate in our interchange of Bible study research and mutual encouragement. Since there is nothing in Scripture to say that Peter and the other apostles “made a mistake” by casting lots to select someone to take the place… Read more »
[…] We cannot prove with certainty that Rev. 7:4 is referring to a literal number of individuals. (See post: 144,000—Literal or Symbolic) […]
[…] which cannot be numbered. Is 144,000 a literal number or a symbolic one? We’ve already made a good case for considering this number to be symbolic. If that doesn’t convince you of the possibility, do […]
According to our figures, there were 90,000 at the 1925 memorial; all partakers. There have been additional tens of thousands since there. There were 8,000 Jews baptized at the start of the work in the first century. Countless thousands of Gentiles followed. There have been an untold number of faithful ones down through the centuries. With figures like these, how can we still be sticking to the ridiculous idea that 144,000 is a literal number?
I wrote my comment and then read this one……same thinking.
Meleti- There is much additional research on these topics that I would like to share with you and this forum. Please contact me at the e-mail provided.
Agreed Steve – It is a worthy topic to explore, closely related to the when question. A word of explanation about the Jews. They will eat the Passover Seder after sundown on Monday, March 25th, 2013. The Reasoning Book we considered in the School program about who partakes and when noted that modern Jews do this on Nisan 15 on their calendar, which goes back to Rabbi Hillel II. They also set Nisan 1 on the worldwide moment of astronomical conjunction of the moon and sun. This would have been 19 hours 51 minutes Universal Coordinated Time (Greenwich, England) on… Read more »
Side issue – when is Nisan 14 in 2013? According to astronomical tables, the new moon nearest the equinox in Jerusalem took place at 9:51pm local time on March 11, 2013. The next evening, the moon set at 6:33 pm, some 20 hours and 41 minutes later, and 49 minutes after the sunset of March 12. The Jews acquired their calendar in Babylon, where astronomers/priests had long since developed eclipse tables for the moon with a precise knowledge of lunar movements. As it is often cloudy, rainy or even snowing in Jerusalem the calendar wise priests would know the facts… Read more »
I think this raises another issue, which perhaps Meleti would like to post on: How often should we partake?
Steve
Fascinating discussion Brother Meliti…!!!
Isn’t interesting that the Jury’s still out on the conclusions…?!
Maybe a demonstration of the power of indoctrination…? Ultimately, we can only follow our own conscience’s and continue to pray to our Heavenly Father for His guidance…
Bit thank you for bringing this into the open… and to all for their thought provoking comments…
Surely when Paul discussed the observance of the Lord’s Evening Meal, it was with the expectation of all members of the congregations partaking. His reference to “partaking un-worthily” was in the manner of eating and drinking, and not basic qualification to partake.
Who should partake is a different subject than how many should partake. If 144,000 is not literal, then the argument for limited partaking – even 12 thousand out of 17 million – no longer fits the scriptures.
Even if the number of 144,000 is literal, it doesn’t mean that not all Christians should partake. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that only those who go to heaven are allowed to partake.
MEDIATOR and the New Covenant The Society has taught that only the 144,000 are to par-take of the emblems and Jesus only mediates and died for them. “He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members. ” Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace” (1986) pp.10-11 Likewise, the Greater Moses, “Jesus knew that he was going to purchase these anointed ones with his own blood, so he fittingly referred to them collectively as his slave.” Watchtower 1993 May 1 p.16 Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator… Read more »
And yet and yet …. does not the inexorable force of HS “bear witness with the spirit ” – in an unmistakable way – for those whom Jehovah selects for the privilege of being joint-heirs with Christ? As Apollos reminded me, sincerity alone is insufficient to gain the prize. Equally, effort and hard work are insufficient, since our salvation is by faith, not works. So what is the determining factor? – in the end it is Jehovah’s choosing, and that alone – such choosing is made unmistakable by HS. It follows that no human should tell (or teach ) another… Read more »
Gedalizah,
Are Christians Abraham’s seed?
Steve
With respect…
Yet another scripture used out of context…
The whole of Romans 8 is demonstrating the contrast between fleshly men and spiritual men…
“For the minding of the flesh… means enmity with God,… So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:6-8
It follows that no human should tell (or teach ) another whether or not they have a heavenly hope and a requirement to partake of emblems – that is Jehovah’s work alone. Surely we can’t “reason ourselves” into believing that our hope is heavenly – if HS didn’t tell us loud and clear, it didn’t tell us at all. ……………………………… 1) Should a human tell or teach another whether or not they have a heavenly hope? It was part of Paul’s gospel message. Paul was human. If the answer to your question is no, then Paul was out of line.… Read more »
Also, having known a Witness who “came into the truth” in the late 1920’s, I’ve heard it said that from around 1900 onwards there were – even then – some who felt “different” and who felt uncomfortable taking the emblems. It all seems very hard to rationalise with many of the comments on this post.
This is something that puzzled me too, until I read a good portion of the published articles leading up to and during that time. When you understand the evolution of this doctrine and consider that people were reading this specific material (which is not presenting the doctrine exactly as we understand it now) you will begin to get some perspective on why you might have felt exactly the same way if you had recently taken an interest in the IBSA.
Worth noting also Apollos that all eight of the Governing Body members are of the new partaker group. That might be a good starting point for re-thinking established doctrine.
But this latter reasoning suggests that pre-Christian faithful ones are in a sense better off not knowing about the heavenly hope (in consequence making no effort to gain it) than the faithful in the Christian age who become aware of the heavenly hope and yet become convinced by sincere Bible study that such a hope is not open to him. Counter-intuitive at the very least, surely?
No effort to obtain it?
Perhaps a rereading of Hebrew 11 would adjust that thought. They may not have known exactly what they were going to obtain but I must disagree with the “no effort” portion.
We are the first to point out that sincerity itself is insufficient (Rom 10:2).
Luke 12:48 indicates that those who did not fully understand the will of the master will neither gain the full prize, nor will they be beaten with the greatest severity.
That assumes Christians have a hope of living forever in heaven. 🙂
Steve
Just a speculation or thought experiment (likely subject to punishment by the thoguht-police): The numbers of partakers has grown by just a few hundred per year. But if the ideas found here and elsewhere are the product of spirit-directed correction, which from time-to-time moves upward through the organization rather than downward, results in a doubling each year, then we have 2013 – 24,000; 2014 – 48,000; 2015 – 96,000 arriving at Dec 6, 2015, the 40th anniversary of the installation of the Govering Body in control of the organization. Then we will all have to confront the coming of 2016… Read more »
You might also consider that the number started to decline in the mid-30’s when it was first proposed that a large group was not destined for heaven. The number started to climb again in 2006 when the 30’s cut-off date was abandoned.
Spirit directed or the power of human suggestion?
If we are exploring the possibility that our belief in two distinctly different outcomes for the faithful (ie heavenly immortal life and earthly everlasting life) may be incorrect, we need to find a satisfactory explanation for Jesus’ reference to John the Baptizer viz “one who is least in the kingdom of heavens is greater than he”? We’ve always understood that Jesus is here teaching that those of mankind who died without having had the opportunity to put faith in the ransoming power of his shed blood cannot be eligible for the reward of life in the heavenly kingdom. This seems… Read more »
That is not an issue. Jesus said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will even be there at Matthew 8:11. Jesus was comparing those born of women, which is everyone now, with those in the kingdom, which will be everyone then. His point was simply that the greatest one in the present age is less than last in the new one.
Steve
Steve beat me to this as I was just in the process of replying. He put it very succinctly, but perhaps I can expand on that with some evidence that this is likely what Jesus was saying. (Matthew 11:11) Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. (Matthew 14:10-13) and he sent and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 And his head was brought on… Read more »
“But I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens…” Matthew 8:11
It sounds liyou seem to agree with 2 individuals that run a website called ANOINTED JW.ORG
(Isaiah 65:20) “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.
Evil will not be long tolerated by Christ as King and Judge.
That is most certainly true. But in any scenario (including yours) all of humanity is not going to be sinless from day 1 of the 1000 year reign. So clearly this cannot mean that people will be struck down for their first sin after armaggedon. Therefore Christ as judge will evidently be determining whether a person has become irredeemable, and if so his opportunity for everlasting life will be revoked at that point. Would you not agree?
Isn’t it true that Rev 20 depicts events on the Earth, or at least from an Earthly viewpoint? And the tent of God comes down from heaven, no? Psalm 37: 9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. 10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. Rev 20: 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first… Read more »
I fail to understand your reasoning. Yes, the wicked will be destroyed, but this isn’t fully accomplished until after the thousands years, during which many wicked remain. During this time Christians rule over them.
After the thousands years and judgement, those non-Christians given life in the second resurrection will be ruled over.
In neither case have you demonstrated the existence of a second class of Christians.
Steve
Will all Christians rule and kings and priests of God – for 1000 years and forever?
Over whom will they rule? Faithless and un-righteous mankind? Hardly.
So there are two classes. (The term tier-system belittles the salvation they receive.)
Read Revelation 20. It is indeed the wicked whom they rule over, for at the end of that time the wicked turn on the Christians and are destroyed.
For forever, they will rule over those given life who were not Christian.
Steve
I’m not sure that “tier” is any worse than “class”.
(James 2:4) YOU have class distinctions among yourselves ..
Different context I grant you, but the use of “class” in society now often has a negative connotation, and that was true in the first century congregation too.
When Jesus formed a covenant with Kingdom Heirs as partakers at the first (pre-death) memorial, he said: (Luke 22:28-30) “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Jesus was not the mediator of the ever-lasting covenant his Father had made with him. Neither does his acting as mediator in this matter with… Read more »
With respect Urbanus…
using the word, “clearly”, when interpreting scripture, especially on this site…!!!???
We all seem to have a number of theories on this doctrine… which is the very reason we’re here…
I’ve already voiced mine… but it seems to me that we all want to be, “Right…!”…?
Once more unto the fray,” dear brother
rs… 🙂
Thank you, saraybach54. 🙂 Other catchwords and catchphrases to be wary of are “evidently”, “it is evident”, “without doubt” and “undoubtedly”. These are good old English words who have their place in the vernacular, but due to their frequent use in our publications to introduce speculative reasoning supporting a new understanding which has been later abandoned in favor of yet another “refinement”, which itself has also been introduced using one of these words, they now carry some heavy, negative semantic baggage. Best to avoid them here when introducing a line of deductive reasoning. It is interesting to do a word… Read more »
from WOL …these numbers are controlled.…..if you search for Jehovah (just in Bibles) it comes up only 620 times
Jesus (just in Bibles) comes up exactly the same number 620 times.
*Note: these are the numbers from ALL the Bible translation that JW.org list AND the “j” is in lower case. “jehovah” “jesus” Why???
evidently 4,790
undoubtedly 1,223
refinement 71
refinements 81
without a doubt 328
it is evident 624
I must make a correction……the numbers that are given in my last post are deceptive ……and proves further the deception of JW.org….because these numbers are the number of PAGES that the words are found on in the publications. Page 5 of 4,790 pages of “evidently”. Which makes the case against them even worse. Also with reference to Jehovah and Jesus…..620 PAGES EACH…..bizard that they are the EXACT number of pages each. In my defence (not that I need one) they deceive by saying “results” of the word that is being searched for. Deception because we are not looking for the… Read more »
It’s true that using the words “clearly” and “evidently” might get you a job in the writing department, but they don’t carry the same weight around here unless the evidence is fully presented. Let’s start by addressing the idea that the events of Matt 25:34-40 describe Jehovah’s Witnesses assisting a core group of anointed in their midst by following their direction in the preaching work. Look at Jesus words without preconception. Why would he describe the actions in terms of common charity if he was primarily referring to assisting with the Christian command to preach the gospel? Also why does… Read more »
As Apollos points out, our entire interpretation of the “sheep and goats” parable is based on the particular meaning we give to the words “my brothers”. By teaching that this refers only to a class of Christian with a heavenly hope, we are forced to conclude that the sheep are not of this class–not “his brothers”. However, consider his own words on the subject of who is his brother: (Matthew 12:48-50) .?.?.As an answer he said to the one telling him: “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49?And extending his hand toward his disciples, he said: “Look!… Read more »
Urbanus,
In Matthew 25 Jesus twice says “these,” both when speaking of his brothers and the little ones. Where in the text are “these” in view for Jesus to utilize this pronoun when referring to them if they are distinct from the individual sheep?
Steve
Grape juice to avoid drinking alcohol. Wonderbread I guess because it was done 4 times a year – and eating matzoh is not a Presbyterian thing – even if a “body of elders (presbyters)” is.
So would Presbyterians eating white bread and drinking grape juice in an expression of faith admit them to heaven, and Jehovah’s baptized Christian Witnesses not partaking as “sons of the Kingdom Covenant” deny them salvation?
Re: Would Presbyterians eating white bread and drinking grape juice in an expression of faith admit them to heaven, and Jehovah’s baptized Christian Witnesses not partaking as “sons of the Kingdom Covenant” deny them salvation?
I have never said that not partaking denies a person salvation, and I specifically did say that the emblems are not some sort of talisman such that partaking becomes a ticket to heaven.
(Revelation 2:23) … all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds.
Thanks Apollos-
To explain “my Calvinist soul,” I partook of Welch’s grape juice and small cubes of white bread because I was born as one of the “elect” brothers of Christ.
But once I learned of Jehovah’s purpose to redeem mankind through the ransom sacrifice of the blood of the lamb, I no longer considered myself “elect.”
Jesus command to eat and drink his blood and flesh was given more than a year before his death. It was therefore symbolic.
Of course it is symbolic. No arguments from me there. But that doesn’t mean we can sideline them as less important because they are symbolic. There are two extremes here: 1) The bread and the wine are literally Christ’s body and flesh. 2) The bread and the wine are merely symbols and therefore whether or not we follow Jesus command to remember him by partaking of them is not a big deal. Neither of these can be true. If you have determined that the meal does not apply to you then that is entirely your decision. I have no desire… Read more »
Despite our general agreement, we have come to a slight impasse. “Are there literally 7 congregations, 24 elders, 4 living creatures, and exactly 200 million cavalry?” Allowing for some rounding off on the last item, who is to say otherwise than yes. Have a third of the angels fallen? One there one God and Father? That being said, I have searched my Calvinist soul for nearly five decades on the subject of who partakes of the emblems. At the beginning I earnestly prayed for truth, and truth I found. Since I don’t expect to sit on thrones with Jesus and… Read more »
While it is true that partaking of the emblems clearly is not some sort of talisman to preserve our souls, it is still one of the few direct commands given to us by our Lord.
But no one should persuade you that you must partake if that is not in your heart, just as it is inappropriate to persude any person that he or she should not observe the command.
Really the same thing could be said of baptism. In and of itself it does not preserve us if we make no attempt to keep the law of the Christ. Same thing with preaching. But our observances of these few things that Jesus directed are all part of what it is to be Christian, and they all have their individual roles to play in our lives to keep us focused on what we are in this world.
The burden of prove is on you, my dear brother. There seems to be every reason to believe in a structured and divinely designed arrangement for the redemption of all mankind. 1 or 12 or 24 all work for me, but Revelation is deterministic at 12x12x1000 until proven otherwise. What is beautiful about the symbolism of Revelation 7 is treating Joseph and Levi as fleshly sons of Israel, and therefore, as sons of spiritual Israel chosen from every race and nation of mankind since Pentecost of 33 CE. After all, it was Jehovah himself that created the races and nations… Read more »
If the burden of proof is on me then there would have to be some reason to believe that the usage of numbers in Revelation is generally literal. If this is not the case then I say the burden of proof is on the party who insists that in this particular case it IS literal. (Revelation 1:1) .. he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs … (Revelation 1:20) As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw upon my right hand, and [of] the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean [the] angels of… Read more »
I have to concur with Apollos on this. Since the Revelation is full of signs and symbols, we can only say for sure that a number is literal if a) it is explicitly stated as such, or b) there can be no other way to understand it, or c) the number is found elsewhere in Scripture where is it plainly understood to be literal. 144,000 may be literal or it may be symbolic, or as Urbanus points out, it may even be both. But saying something may be so is vastly different from asserting it is so. The former position… Read more »
Also as an addendum to my previous comment, I don’t think that the beauty of the symbolism depends upon a literal interpretation. As you point out Urbanus, many of these number are based upon a literal fleshly arrangement. I do see the beauty in expressing the spiritual arrangement in terms of numbers of completeness that had already been demonstrated in the inferior arrangement. But it would seem to limit God if we say that he therefore had to base his glorious kingdom arrangement upon the literal numbers that were used as a type. I can’t imagine God saying “sorry you… Read more »
The premise of this post – “literal or symbolic” fails to recognize that Jehovah designed this spiritual arrangement from the beginning to be both. The 24 divisions of the Levitical priesthood were structured in their service – Luke 1. and: (Hebrews 7:11-14) 11 If, then, perfection were really through the Levitical priesthood, (for with it as a feature the people were given the Law,) what further need would there be for another priest to arise according to the manner of Mel?chiz?e?dek and not said to be according to the manner of Aaron? 12 For since the priesthood is being changed, there comes… Read more »
Urbanus
So your contention is that whilst the number 144,000 was chosen for its symbolism, there will also literally be that number of kings and priests. Did I understand that correctly?
Do you have any scriptural evidence of that? I failed to find any in Luke 1 or Hebrews 7, but perhaps I am missing the point.
Apollos
Excellent point. Of course, few is relative. When one things of the billions that will be resurrected and will need personal shepherding, one can consider that even a few million kings and priests will be a small number.
The number may be in-fact just symbolic, but if one were to look at the priestly classes under the old law, only a few, Aaron’s offspring (high-priests) were allowed in to the inner tent. So this to me seems to indicate that there will be only a few compared to the great crowd that will rule as kings and priest. Paul also mentioned in Romans that these had to like Christ suffer like him to attain this reward.
Being a kingdom of priests was a promise to the entire nation of Israel, not just a few individuals.
Meleti, Realizing this goes a bit beyond the scope of the post, some thoughts preemptively for your future one: 1) What we read about the 144,000 is what John heard, not what he saw. Could it not be that the great crowd are him seeing the group just described to him? 2) The angel says not to harm the earth until the servants of our God have been sealed. This would suggest that anyone who is a servant of God is among this group. 3) The number 12 is a symbolic number and what we are here told of it… Read more »
Steve Interesting points, but I think there must be one distinction between the groups. The great crowd are those that have come out of the great tribulation. The 144K seems to represent all those who rule with Christ. Perhaps therefore the great crowd is a subset of the 144K. I know it sounds counter-inuitive based upon the numbers, but once we allow for the 144,000 to be a symbolic number then that becomes irrelevant. The number 144,000 as a grand multiple of 12x12x1000 indicates the completeness of the arrangement. However those facing the great tribulation would want to be assured… Read more »
Apollos, I’m not convinced “have come” is necessarily the best reading. It is a present participle, so it may be that John is seeing them in the process of coming out. Participles are tricky business. We do not find any indication of an ongoing sealing that must be concluded. Rather, the angel would seem to initiate a sealing, specifically eschatological in nature. So the 144,000 would be the living church, but not the church throughout all of history, be it of those on earth at the end or all in the resurrection. I’m uncertain as to your point on symbolism.… Read more »
Hi Steve I accept that my designation of the 144,000 as the entire church from the 1st century on is mostly based upon our current doctrinal preconceptions. This is a rut that I try to avoid, so thanks for catching me on that. I can see your point that this vision may refer only to those sealed during the end times. I take it that you accept that first century Christians were also sealed by holy spirit (2Co 1:21, 22; Eph 1:13, 14; 4:30), but that you are pointing out that the 144,000 does not necessarily describe the full number… Read more »
Apollos,
I can appreciate your views on presuppositions. I share much the same view.
My inclination on the text is based upon two things. One, Rev. 4:1 says the things described are yet future. Two, the sealing elsewhere spoken of in scripture would seem to take place upon conversion, while this one is for those who are already servants of God.
I’m have no presuppositions opposition to your view, I’m just not certain it best fits the text.
Steve
With respect Steve…? The great crowd are seen by John in heaven – standing before the throne – having already been saved from the great tribulation…(Rev 7:9,10) There is mention of a group of multi-nationals, who are to rule as Kings and Priests over thew earth, in Revelation 5:9,10, who are singing a song, the words to which are written down…(as opposed to secret)…but that’s only going to muddy the waters even more…!!!??? However, the 144,000 are still on earth when their foreheads are sealed…(Rev 7:3) and stay on earth for a while…(Rev 9:4) The next time they appear, they… Read more »
Saray,
Again, I’m not convinced by this view, for multiple reasons, including my grammatical note to Apollos. As mentioned above, it is not clear that they have already been saved from the tribulation in Revelation 7.
Steve
With respect Steve…
How do you read verses10 then…?
They cry out with a loud voice, “Salvation we owe to our God…”
How can they affirm that if they are yet to be saved…?
The Bible regularly speaks of Christians as saved in the present. I don’t see this as a difficulty.
Steve
Incidently… there appears to be no direct reference, in any scripture mentioning the 144,000, to their ruling as kings and priests for the thousand years…
Also, when one takes a look at the number of anointed Christians in modern times, one has to wonder how is it possible that in the first-century there weren’t close to 144,000 faithful Christians and a great number of them only appeared on earth now.
Quite so. In fact, just working from the numbers baptized that the Bible gives us and then allowing for conservative numbers of converts among the gentiles, then extrapolating birth rates and the fact that apostasy didn’t overwhelm the congregation completely for some time after the apostles died, we can easily show mathematically that the number was filled within 100 years of Christ’s death.
I believe what Russell stated. “Many are called but few are chosen”. Lots of Christians are anointed but may it win the race of becoming the 144,000