With such a wealth of so-called accurate knowledge on this subject, would it surprise you to learn that the phrase “great crowd of other sheep” does not appear anywhere in the Bible? Perhaps not. But I am sure it would surprise many to learn that the supposedly obvious connection between these two groups is nonexistent.
The term “other sheep” is only used once in the inspired word of God at John 10:19. Jesus doesn’t define the term but the context supports the idea that he was referring to a future ingathering of Gentile Christians. Our official take on this is based on Judge Rutherford’s teaching that the other sheep refers to all Christians who are not spirit anointed and have an earthly hope. No scriptural support for this teaching is provided in our publications, simply because none exists. (In fact, there is no Scripture to show that some Christians are not spirit-anointed.) However, we hold it to be true and treat it as a given, requiring no scriptural support. (For a fuller discussion on this subject, see the post, Who’s Who? (Little Flock/Other Sheep).
What about the great crowd? It also occurs in only one place, at least in the context we use to link it to the other sheep.
(Revelation 7:9) “After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”
What is our basis for saying the two terms are linked? Human reasoning, plain and simple. Unfortunately, our track record over the past 140 years in these intellectual endeavors is dismal; a fact, lamentably, we willingly overlook as a community. Some of us, however, are no longer willing to overlook it, and we now require Scriptural support for every teaching. So let’s look to see if we can find any regarding the great crowd.
The Bible mentions two groups in the seventh chapter of Revelation, one numbering 144,000 and another which cannot be numbered. Is 144,000 a literal number or a symbolic one? We’ve already made a good case for considering this number to be symbolic. If that doesn’t convince you of the possibility, do a search in the WTLib program using “twelve” and notice the number of hits you get in Revelation. How many of these are literal numbers? Is the 144,000 cubits measuring the city wall at Rev. 21:17 a literal number? What about the 12,000 furlongs measuring the city’s length and breadth, literal or symbolic?
Admittedly, we cannot state categorically that it is literal, so any conclusion we draw must be speculative at this juncture. So why would one number be precise while the other is considered innumerable? If we take 144,000 symbolically, then obviously it isn’t given to measure the precise number of those making up this group. Their real number is unknown, like that of the great crowd. So why give it at all? We can presume that it is mean to represent a divinely constituted governmental structure that is complete and balanced, for this is how twelve is used symbolically throughout the Bible.
So why mention another group in the same context?
The 144,000 symbolize the total number of those throughout human history who are chosen to serve in heaven. The vast majority of these will be resurrected. However, none of the great crowd are resurrected. They are all still alive when they receive their salvation. The heavenly group will consist of both resurrected ones and transformed ones. (1 Cor. 15:51, 52) So the great crowd could be part of that heavenly group. The number, 144,000, tells us that the Messianic kingdom is a balanced, complete divinely constituted government, and the great crowd tells us that an unknown number of Christians will survive the great tribulation to go to heaven.
We’re not saying that’s the way it is. We are saying that this interpretation is possible and, failing specific Bible texts to the contrary, cannot simply be discounted because it happens to disagree with the official doctrine, since that one is also based on human speculation.
“Wait!”, you may say. “Isn’t the sealing completed before Armageddon and doesn’t the resurrection of the anointed occur then?”
Yes, you are right. So you are probably thinking that this proves the great crowd does not go to heaven, because they are only identified after surviving Armageddon, and by then, all the heavenly class have already been taken up. Actually, that is not totally accurate. The Bible says they come out of the “great tribulation”. Sure, we teach that Armageddon is part of the great tribulation, but that isn’t what the Bible teaches. It teaches that Armageddon comes after the great tribulation. (See Mt. 24:29) So the judgment that takes place after Babylon is destroyed but before Armageddon starts clearly identifies those marked for salvation, thus permitting them to be transformed in the twinkling of an eye along with those who will be resurrected then.
Ok, but doesn’t Revelation indicate that the great crowd serve on earth while the anointed serve in heaven? First of all, we should challenge the premise of this question because it assumes the great crowd are not spirit-anointed ones. There is no basis for this assertion. Second, we should look to the Bible to see where exactly they will serve.
(Revelation 7:15) . . .That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple;. . .
The word translated “temple” here is naos’.
(w02 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers) “…the Greek word (na·os’) translated “temple” in John’s vision of the great crowd is more specific. In the context of the Jerusalem temple, it usually refers to the Holy of Holies, the temple building, or the temple precincts. It is sometimes rendered “sanctuary.””
This would lean toward a heavenly placement it would seem. It is interesting that after making this statement (no reference to a lexicon is given) the same article continues to an incongruous conclusion.
(w02 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers) Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles.
First, there is nothing in Revelation chapter seven linking the members of the great crowd to Jewish proselytes. We’re just making that up in an attempt to exclude the great crowd from the sanctuary even though the Bible puts them there. Second, we’ve just stated that naos’ refers to the temple itself, the holy of holies, the sanctuary, the inner chambers. Now we’re saying that the great crowd is not in the inner courtyard. Then we say in the same paragraph that “the great crowd really is in the temple”. So which is it? It's all very confusing, is it not?
Just to be clear, here is what naos’ means:
“A temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides.” (Strong’s Concordance)
“Refers to the sanctuary (the Jewish Temple proper), i.e. with just its two inner compartments (rooms).” HELPS Word-studies
“…used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies…” Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
This puts the great crowd in the same place in the temple where the anointed exist. It would appear that the great crowd are also spirit-anointed sons of God, not just friends as the aforementioned “Question from Readers” states.
However, doesn’t the Lamb guide them to “fountains of waters of life” and doesn’t that refer to those on the earth? It does, but not exclusively. All who get everlasting life, earthly or heavenly, are guided to these waters. That is what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well, “…the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life…” Was he not speaking of those who would become anointed with holy spirit after his departure?
In Summary
There is clearly too much unexplained symbolism in Revelation chapter seven for us to construct a definitive doctrine to support the concept of a two-tier system of salvation.
We say the other sheep have an earthly hope, even though there is nothing in the Bible to support this. It is pure conjecture. We then link the other sheep to the great crowd, though again, there is no basis in Scripture for us to do this. Then we say that the great crowd serves God on earth even though they are depicted as standing before his throne in the holy sanctuary of the temple in heaven where God resides.
Maybe we should just wait and see what the great crowd turns out to be after the great tribulation has ended instead of diverting the hopes and dreams of millions with unfounded speculation and human interpretation of Scripture.
Archived Comments
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Comment by crazyguy on 2013-05-13 22:18:05
Like you said no were in the bible is the Great Crowd talked about in connection with the other-sheep. While doing research on the subject of the mediator and new covenant i discovered that Rutherford viewed the great crowd or great multitude as it was called back then as another group altogether and inferior to the 144k which he thought he was apart of. He called this new group the Jonadab class and since they were inferior, they could not get baptized (originally) or even attend the memorial celebration. His negative attitude towards this new class can be verified by reading his Vindication 3 book. So its because of one man named Rutherford that we today in our religion have a two class system, those of the great crowd of other sheep and ones the Governing Body call the Anointed.
The Bible says otherwise, in Romans chapter 3 Paul states there is no distinction and 1 John 5:1 says all that believe in Christ are Gods sons. Its become clear to me that once a person believes in Christ then gets baptized Holy spirit is then poured out upon him, anointing him. So all true Christians are anointed.( that is what Christian actually means) The other sheep are the Gentiles that Jesus was talking about not a group that comes along almost 2000 years later and as for the 144K they are the first fruits with no distinction until Jehovah chooses them.
Comment by apollos0falexandria on 2013-05-14 08:48:01
Great article Meleti.
Noting your conversation with Steve, I have been wondering for some time whether we have been somewhat diverted in our thinking from the real issue here. Our doctrines focus very much on “location”. i.e. The hope of living forever on a paradise earth or the hope of going to heaven.
Isn't the real message of the Bible and the Christian Greek scriptures about “condition” rather than “location”?
The fact that there is so much ambiguity about where everybody ends up seems to indicate that it's not vital for us to know. However, what we can be certain of is that victorious Christians will be saved and come into a perfectly restored relationship with God through Christ.
The whole concept of new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God (Rev 21:10), whilst not necessarily to be taken literally given its stated dimensions, seems to suggest a merging of what we now think of as distinct dimensions (heaven and earth). So perhaps our whole seeming dilemma of where people end up is based on incomplete information.
But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor 2:9)
In the above passage Paul is quoting from Isa 64:4. Although in context Paul is admittedly saying that the spirit does reveal these things to spiritually minded Christians, is he really thinking here at all about where a person's destination is, or rather the spiritual condition that a Christian looks forward to?
This is where I think we may have had our minds guided off track, so that we can become unduly concerned over location. Much of our memorial talk this year poured over Old Testament prophecies of Jewish restoration. Whilst I am not saying that these prophecies have no future fulfilment, we are in danger of still thinking in the physical ways that the Jews did, rather than with the spiritual mind that Christians ought to have.
One passage of scripture that I think you missed in your list to Steve is Phil 3:19-21.
...and they have their minds upon things on the earth. 20 As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body according to the operation of the power that he has, even to subject all things to himself.
Now Steve may say again we are reading too much into this passage, but “citizenship” here literally means “our life as citizens” (see ftn), and it "exists in the heavens".
There can be no doubt that the Apostle Paul saw the Christian hope as “heavenly”, but what that will ultimately mean in the context of the new heavens and earth remains to be seen.
Apollos
Comment by Jude on 2013-05-14 22:26:52
The keys to understanding the location of the great crowd can be found in Revelation 7.
First of all, please note that the elder asks John "where did they COME from?" Why the phrase "come from"? If they are on earth - and always have been - such a question, which implies a change in location, would be entirely irrelevant.
Secondly, please note this very key bit of reasoning given by the elder at Revelation 7:14,15:
". . . they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. THAT IS WHY they are BEFORE THE THRONE of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night IN HIS TEMPLE"
Please note the words I have capitalized for emphasis. Do you see the point the elder is making? He is actually explaining to John the justification for them being given the PRIVILEGE of being before the throne of God and serving in his temple - the fact that they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. Could this privilege simply mean being on earth in the sight of God? If so, how is it any different from the wicked who are also on earth and in the sight of God, so as to be regarded as a special privilege?
Thirdly, please note that the great crowd is mentioned as being of all tribes and nations and tongues - right after mentioning the 144,000 TRIBES OF ISRAEL. Isn't it obvious that the writer wants the reader to think of the great crowd as being gentiles? And given that they are gentiles, which interpretation of the statement about them being "in the temple" has the more powerful impact on the reader - that they are only in the temple coartyards? Or that they are actually in his holy temple, where, up until now, only Jews were permitted to minister? Do you see the powerful point the writer is actually conveying to the typical first century Jewish christian reading this passage? And if in his temple represents heaven then obviously the great crowd are in heaven.
There is much that can be discerned from scripture by studying the flow of thought of the writer and looking for what is insinuated implicitly without being explicitly stated. Don't just read what the writer writes - discern his flow of thought and look for what is insinuated without being explicitly stated. It greatly aids understanding.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-05-14 23:13:41
Thanks Jude, for the additional reasoning points. It makes the application of this passage all the clearer.
Reply by junachin on 2013-05-15 12:19:50
Hey Jude,
Very interesting take on the whole great crowd thing. I think it's as good an explanation as any other. However, I have the following reservations:
The last three verses in Rev 7 don't seem to jibe well with the great crowd being in heaven.
15 "For this reason they stand before God's throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them.
16 They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them.
17 For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Notice the future tense. They worship God but they still need to be sheltered and led, and their tears have yet to be wiped away.
Also, I would think that first century Christians would have gotten over their issues with gentiles in heaven a long time before Revelation was written. I may be wrong about that, but it's interesting that it doesn't figure among the problems Jesus addresses in his messages to the seven congregations.
I also think we need to be cautious about reading too much into the question "Where did they come from?". We often use that phrase to mean 'what are they doing there?' or 'how did they get there?'. Have you done any research into the language used here? It would be interesting to know if there's anything more in that question than meets the eye.
Finally, the problem with "studying the flow of thought of the writer and looking for what is insinuated" is that it's an extremely subjective exercise. One could argue that some of our mistakes - especially the ones introduced by the word "evidently" - have come from attempting to do exactly that. I do agree that trying to get inside the head of the writer is a good exercise, but I'm not convinced we can always do that from 2000 years and a dead language away.
Could it be that the great crowd corresponds with the sheep of Matthew 25? People who, during the GT, decide to throw in their lot with God's people and begin worshiping him then? It seems to me that this part of the prophecy is pointing to a post-GT moment when there will be a great crowd no one expected to be there, and whose presence will need to be explained. Unless I'm reading more into it than is there....Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-05-15 14:26:31
Hi Jude and Junichin
I have to agree with some of Jude's points.
Junichin - to accept your first and primary argument regarding tense one has to ask the question - when does this happen to anointed Christians?
In context are we not talking about when the great crowd has been spared from the great tribulation, but as yet the marriage of the Lamb has not yet taken place? In which case the leading to fountains of waters would still be future because all these things take place during the events of Rev 21 do they not? v7 of that chapter talks of those conquering receiving the inheritance and becoming God's sons. Who else can this be except for Christians who have received their heavenly calling? And the preceding verse also refers to giving from the fountain of water of life in the future tense, in much the same way as Rev 7.
So I don't think that phraseology is an impediment to the great crowd being seen in heaven as all of the rest of the evidence seems to point to.
Just my initial thoughts.
ApollosReply by junachin on 2013-05-15 16:47:54
Hi Apollos,
My initial impression is that, once you're in heaven, you don't need anything like water of life, shelter or tear-wiping. Also, I don't see any reason why receiving an inheritance and becoming God's sons necessarily means a heavenly calling. I'm shooting from the hip here (and was before) so it may well be that I've overlooked something. If so, do share.Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-05-15 17:56:55
Hi Junachin
Do you not think those are all symbolic ways of showing condition, rather than being literal? As I mentioned I'm basing that on the language of Rev 21:6,7, but also John 4:10-14. To deny that those who go to heaven need any of these things seems to miss the point. We can look at things in a purely material way (as the Samaritan woman did at the well) or we can see the greater meaning. Those going to heaven need the life giving water. I also see no reason why they would not require emotional healing, on the basis that they will still have emotions. That is not speculation but rather is based on the scriptural evidence that spirit creature have emotions (including the Almighty himself).
ApollosReply by junachin on 2013-05-15 19:34:45
Hi Apollos,
Believe me, I wasn't thinking of literal tears in heaven, the views of the great petra-theologian Eric Clapton notwithstanding. Still, though I think that to say whether those resurrected to heavenly life will or will not need comforting and shelter is to go way out on a speculative limb, your point that resurrection to heavenly life may not automatically cure all ills of the psyche is well taken. I had assumed it would, but maybe it won't. (If I got wings and could walk through walls and fly around the universe, I'm pretty sure it would take my mind off my problems for a while, but that's just me:) I'm not sure I agree that those in heaven need life-giving water - after all, they're already up there, presumably in no danger of death. But again, if you're saying that the whole eternal-life-in-heaven thing requires the imbibing of 'water of life', then I see your point.
Why do you think John 4 is referring to heavenly life?
Reply by SheepdogJHB on 2015-10-30 14:59:18
Hi J all
I am new to this site and enjoy the clear bible thinking being done.
Recently stopped going to meetings at the KH as I had enough of the empty things taught there and felt that it was killing me spiritually.
Any way:
Is it necessary that this great crowd be in heaven could it not be a description of the way Jehovah's views these ones?
Was not man created to live on the earth Matthew 5:5, God had inter-action with humans before they sinned. Genesis 3:8,9
What is the bible basis for the 144,000 needing to be in heaven, maybe they are one who will rule with Jesus from the earth. Gal 5:15-16?
Much of the bible seems to be round the relationship between our heavenly father and his intelligent creation, what is spirituality other than our relationship with God enabled by his Son. So possibly these statements are not about a 'location' but about a relationship with Jehovah and Jesus, not with standing Revelation 14:3.
Any thoughts?
Lots of reading thinking to be done.
Regards
"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." Quote from Dave Grossman"
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-10-30 15:24:49
Welcome Sheepdog,
Just a quick response as I'm pressed for time. We cannot be sure about the identify of the Great Crowd. All we know is that they come out of the great tribulation. As to what reward they get, we will have to wait and see. Perhaps someone will correct me on that and come up with a Scriptural basis for determining their reward.
However, two things we can be sure of is 1) there will be a small group who will rule with Jesus over the earth, and 2) countless unrighteous ones will be resurrected to life on earth. (When I say "over the earth" I refer to a position of authority not physical location.)Reply by SheepdogJHB on 2015-10-31 00:40:22
Hi Meleti Vivlon
Thanks
As I have looked into the scriptures I discover that there is little that we can be totally sure about as each interpretation of scripture has been thought out by the one putting it forward and some interpretations have developed over centuries. e.g. Ellicott's commentary on Rev 7 is quite self consistent. Even the trinity doctrine can seem to hold when some explanations are put forward e.g CS Lewis. Maybe this apparent subjectivity is intended in scripture? , because should we work to act like Jesus rather than over study? Matthew 18:1-6, John 5:39. Not to say that blind belief is any good.
Comment by Vassy on 2013-05-15 01:54:28
Hi brothers,
They WTS may have got some teachings clearly wrong (after all, they are humans), but I think they solved correctly the puzzle with the great crowd and 144000. I will not go into details here, but there is more, much more into these issues than sticking to the verses in Revelation which, implicitly, draws its symbolisms from the Hebrew Scriptures. I think some brothers fell prey very easily to the reasoning adopted by some Bethelites of the 1980's (among whom Ray Franz).Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-05-15 14:37:41
Hi Vassy,
I for one would be interested to hear the details.
Apollos
P.S. I'm not certain of the implication of your statement "some brothers fell prey very easily ..." If some of us have independently seen issues with our current framework of doctrine and are trying to piece together what the truth of God's Word might be, does that mean we are falling prey to someone else's reasoning? In my case I can assure you that I don't know what the particular reasoning was "adopted by some Bethelites of the 1980's". If it coincides with my point of view at all, and yet I have not been influenced by them then does that not suggest that there may indeed be an issue?
I would appreciate an honest answer to this question though: do you see all of the interpretation given in the "Revelation Climax" book as absolute truth? If so, then fair enough. If not, then it's hardly fair to suggest apostasy, which is what I think you may be hinting at when you bring Ray Franz into it.Reply by Vassy on 2013-05-16 01:43:56
Hi Apollos,
I hope I can get some free time in the future to post the details. And to answer your question on the Revelation book: no, I do not see the interpretation there as absolute truth. In fact, I think many interpretations connected to past events of our history are obsolete and not in harmony with the scripture. As for apostasy, I do not remember to have mentioned this word, it is not my duty to label someone as apostate. However, I do not agree with the "new light" propounded by Ray Franz and others during the 1980's and thereafter (this does not include only the great crowd issue). And, believe me, I read his books and even shook hands with him when he came to Romania in 2007.Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-05-16 08:27:42
Hi Vassy, Thanks for the clarifications. Given that background info, it's most interesting that you accept the great crowd/144,000 interpretation. I am certainly interested to hear your reasons.
Apollos
Comment by Anonymous on 2013-05-15 10:13:23
The words of Rev 19:1 gave me food for thought when I first read them objectively:
"After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven."
Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-05-15 19:20:20
There has been a wealth of input into this topic and I thank all the contributors. What has become clearer from all this is that there are a number of possible interpretations that can be made to fit the bill. Junachin's is one I find particularly intriguing. However, what I think has to be honestly admitted is that no interpretation can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We will understand the fulfillment when the time comes--when it is revealed.
Given this fact, it is wrong to base a doctrine on any one interpretation; particularly when that doctrinal interpretation is being used to cause Jehovah's people to disobey a direct command of our Lord Jesus.
Comment by mdnwa on 2013-05-16 12:55:50
Questions for not only Vassy but anyone else:
1. Vassy said "In fact, I think many interpretations connected to past events of our history are obsolete and not in harmony with the scripture" this statement is something I've hear many times before from others but these same ones say it in secret for fear of being labeled. The bible discussion of Jehovah doing a "cleaning work" could this be something that might be happening as we speak since it seems the org has been distancing itself from its own past or something in the future?
2. When I did things in my past and went before the elders but did not admit my error to their satisfaction (or they thought I admitted it but didn't seen sincere enough) I was severely reprimanded. However, unless someone can point out that this has happened, when we now try to wash our hands clean or even ignore certain teachings we taught or still try to incorporate thinking to make the past more truthful it stumbles me. It seems almost like the WT last week that said if someone does something to us if we don't forget and forgive then we basically are sinning. But then think... wait but A LOT of people were stumbled by words and actions of our past and even now with this new distancing so how are we to feel about this? I would be greatly encouraged if there is a WT that talks about their admitting to such mistakes and efforts to try to stick more to the bible something as Christians we tell others we 100% do.
3. We are told that taking on any other opinion other than Society or GB is apostasy. However many points that were widely accepted as truth have now been found out to be not correct. However, others point out the scripture that mentions to keep testing you are in the faith. Now while no doubt it wasn't telling us to go to another religious orgs training or just go crazy about researching every other religious viewpoint but on questions we have or brought to me I don't get that I was to run away without seeing if I am in the right religious org. I cannot test if I am in the right faith as a JW since the bible and all publications we use are made by the very people telling us not to go anywhere else. So if I use the index, publications its just gives the same info from the very org that tells us to test it. But... if I want to test out our past or teachings etc I could be kicked out, DF or branded an apostate. Other people have made fun of me calling me brainwashed or ones hear have seen it saying if truly am in a loving org how am I and others so scared to speak their mind. I like to get your viewpoints on how to balance my curiosity while still not overstepping that dreaded apostate label.
ThanksReply by on 2013-05-16 13:21:15
Vassay you may want to look into what crazyguy posted , it seems as though he may have found some reasons that are not from scripture for the two class distinction. I think he mentioned Rutherford and his vindication 3 book.
Comment by Who Should Partake? | Beroean Pickets on 2013-05-22 16:05:44
[…] We cannot prove from Scripture that the Great Crowd of Rev. 7:9 is comprised exclusively of other sheep. For that matter, we can’t prove that the Great Crowd has any connection whatsoever to the other sheep, nor that they will serve on earth. (See post: A Great Crowd of Other Sheep) […]
Comment by Hugo I. Matias on 2013-05-23 00:37:16
I do believe that the great crowd is an earthly class. In fact, I have the same question regarding "na-os'" and in the very verse I found a key word that indicates me that the great crowd is on earth.
Of course, I don't believe the great crowd appears in 1935 and that this serves in the outer courtyards of the temple. Let me see how I can send you my thoughts regarding this.Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-05-28 08:59:27
Hi Hugo, I hope you will expand your point and let us know what you found. Regards, Apollos
Reply by Hugo I. Matias on 2013-06-03 02:46:09
I have wrote something very "light" regarding this, but shows briefly why I think that regarding the great crowd. I'd like to send it to you through e-mail, could you please, give me an e-mail address? Thank you :)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-06-03 06:54:32
I look forward to your e-mail. meleti.vivlon@gmail.com
Comment by Jude on 2013-06-12 21:48:07
Meleti, I just wanted to run something by you and others on this forum regarding the judging of the sheep and the goats of Matthew 25:31-46. An idea came to me during this week's Watchtower study.
The organization teaches that this judging takes place during the great tribulation. But that passage says that Jesus does this judging when he comes in his glory with all the angels and Matthew 24:29-31 indicates that Jesus comes "immediately after" the great tribulation. So it seems like this judgment takes place after the great tribulation. The basis for his judgment also seems to lend credence to this. How?
Jesus speaks about judging persons based on whether or not they were charitable to his followers in need. But how could this be the only basis for judging persons? That would mean that an unrepentant murderer, thief or fornicator gets to inherit the kingdom simply because he performs acts of charity. Makes no sense . . . unless the sheep and the goats are none of these things.
Maybe Jesus uses charity as the criteria for judging because those judged by Jesus at this time are not very wicked people. Maybe by this time the unrepentant murderers, thieves and fornicators - those who make tribulation for others (2 Thessalonians 1:6) - have already been killed off in the great tribulation. The sheep and the goat who are left remaining afterward are the "more righteous" of mankind. Jesus now ups the criteria for judgment by looking at how loving they have been to his followers. The great tribulation could have been a last opportunity for such ones to demonstrate that they are loving by offering charitable assistance to his followers in need during that very trialsome period.
It is noteworthy that Jesus uses sheep to represent his true followers and goats to represent those unfavorably judged. Goats are outwardly similar in appearance to sheep. While they are different, there is not a striking difference in appearance between the two as between a wolf and a sheep, for example. One would have to put forth some effort - even if small - to separate goats from a crowd of sheep. This could lend credence to the idea that the goats are being judged on the basis of charity because they are not egregiously wicked - not very different to the sheep in other areas of morality.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-06-13 00:22:02
I guess that we should start by defining what the great tribulation is.
Matthew 24:29-31 indicates that the signs in the heavens that precede Armageddon come after the great tribulation. So the great tribulation doesn't include Armageddon. All those killed at Armageddon will have already been judged and condemned by God. So the judgment must precede Armageddon. Apparently, the great tribulation is a time of judgment upon individuals. If the great tribulation corresponds to the attack on false religion, then we can conclude that religion has already been judged by that point, but individual humans have not. Such a tribulation will provide a climate where the true heart condition of each one will become manifest. It will be a polarizing time. Those in the congregation who have put up a facade of righteousness will not be able to keep it up throughout that extreme time of testing. (2 Cor. 11:15) All things hidden will then be discovered. (2 Pet. 3:10)
Rather than think we are in the harvest now, I would speculate that the harvest is yet to come. Only our belief in 1914 with its need to find some earthly significance for that year has caused us to conclude we are in the time of harvest. If that were the case, then all the weeds and the wheat that were harvested in 1914-1919 have died off. The weeds were not bundled and burned. No, the weeds and the wheat will be separated in the great tribulation, I believe. Today we know by their fruits that many playing the part of wheat are in fact weeds within the Christian congregation. A time of testing such as none of us have experienced will reveal the true heart condition of each one. Then Jesus will come and judge. In that time, many will take a stand, will chose a side; just like the ancient Egyptians--the great mixed company--that joined itself to the victorious Jews. It will be no trivial matter to do so, just as it wasn't in 66 C.E. for those family members or friends who perhaps joined themselves to the fleeing Christians and were saved with them from the destruction that came 3 1/2 years later.
Giving Christ's brothers--true, anointed Christians--a metaphorical cup of water will be a life-threatening exercise in that climate of hatred for all things religious.
That is how I see it, but of course, it is speculation. We'll see the reality when the time comes.
Reply by apollos0falexandria on 2013-06-13 07:14:09
Jude - in support of your point about the similarity between sheep and goats, it is interesting that the word used in v33 is literally "little kids" (ftn.). These would be even closer in appearance to little sheep I imagine (although I'm no expert on domestic farm animals).
I always thought it was a bit funny that in Matt 15:26 when Jesus refers to "little dogs" we say that he was tempering his words to the Phoenician woman, and yet here the "little kids" become eternal toast.
But going back to your point could this separating not be the same thing as the separating of the wheat and the weeds, just described differently? The wheat and the weeds are also similar in appearance, at least until the harvest.
Meleti's take on it is also quite plausible.
I'm open-minded on this passage however. There are still some questions to be answered.
Apollos
Comment by GodsWordisTruth on 2014-02-14 20:27:57
I wish I read this article earlier this week....I didn't realize you touched this topic...
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