Never Become "Enraged Against Jehovah"

Comment by on 2013-10-12 18:53:04

Meleti Vivlon:
We Have been reading some of your views on your site and obviously you do not want
to be one of Jehovah"s Witnesses.
You are thereby disfellowshipped from the Christian Congregation. You have 7 days to appeal.
Thank You

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2013-10-12 21:50:24

Hi Meleti,
This “Enraged Against Jehovah” theme is to me another call to unity, strength and safety in numbers, or "united-we-stand" doctrine. Using Moses and Aaron as parallel characterizations of the present scheme is actually robbery against Christ.
Christ is the only mediator of the New Covenant just as Moses was the only mediator of the Old Covenant, Both receiving much evidence of their respective appointments. The Governing Body has presumed its appointment to feed the domestics of Christ but as yet has by its own admission not been appointed over all of Christ's belongings (as already established from our previous study) So if they have yet to be given their complete appointment, to say we are enraged against Jehovah if we do not as yet accept them as Christ's fully approved channel, is to divide our loyalty between them and Christ. Was this not Paul's reasoning in 1 Corinthians 1:10-13?
"Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. (Notice how our minds were made to stop here? For the point had not yet been made by Paul! Read on---->) For the disclosure was made to me about YOU, my brothers, by those of [the house of] Chlo′e, that dissensions exist among YOU. What I mean is this, that each one of YOU says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·pol′los,” “But I to Ce′phas,” (and some to a Governing Body?) “But I to Christ.” The Christ exists divided."
As I see it, they're rushing both their final approval and appointment by Christ. This is as much as saying, “Then, too, if anyone says to YOU, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe [it].  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones." (Mark 13:21, 22) . . 
The Governing Body has yet to give us such signs and wonders, so how much less should we allow them to lead us astray?
Those are my thoughts.
Affection,
sw

• Reply by Chris on 2013-10-13 04:47:01

  One of the best analyses of the WTS claim of divine appointment is the book "Captives of a Concept" by Don Cameron.
  While he tends to labour certain points, his core argument is resolutely sound.
  Put simply the WTS, FDS, call them what you will, can only make the claim to have been appointed by Jesus, per their interpretation of Matt.24:45-47, on the basis of what they were teaching up to the claimed appointment date of 1918/1919.
  All other arguments around their heightened awareness Christ's Advent etc are superfluous, because on the basis of what the society was proclaiming as 'truth' in books like "The Finished Mystery"(1917) how could Jesus possibly have been "pleased to appoint them" when these books are full of outright lies, imaginings and pompous fantasies welded together as an authoritative interpretation of Bible prophecies.
  Once their false interpretation of Matt.24:45-47 has had its back broken their so called "body of truth" simply cannot walk unaided
  Despite all their claims of spiritual health the WTS is a sick and crippled organization that only functions with the aid of rotten, broken and often repaired walking sticks of lies.
  That may sound harsh yet they are the first ones that bring scorn on anyone else who claims to FOLLOW Christ, yet they are the only Christian religion,that I know o,f that claims to be directly APPOINTED by Christ.
  As Carl Sagan put it "extraordinary claims call for extraordinary proof"
  This something that Aaron, Moses and others had in abundance and the WTS has none of.

  • Reply by Chris on 2013-10-13 05:21:12

    Sorry, I really should quadruple check my 'Grandma' before I click Post Comment, triple checking just doesn't seem to cut it :|

Comment by miken on 2013-10-13 06:25:26

What followed the supposed 1919 appointment? The continued distribution and the study of the Finished Mystery book, apparently received from Jesus, which contained a significant number of what turned out to be false predictions and ludicrous scriptural interpretations. Following this was the Millions Now Living Will Never Die campaign 1920-1925 during which it was stated definitely that God's Kingdom on earth would be established in 1925 This of course failed to materialise and, as initially after the 1975 failure, the brothers were scolded for their imaginations leading to unrealistic expectations. Does this provable history demonstrate divine approval of a 1919 appointment? I think not. If you are not convinced read the Cameron book.

Comment by anderestimme on 2013-10-13 17:21:23

Seems to me that when there was some doubt about whether Aaron was, indeed, chosen by Jehovah, He dealt with it very simply:
(Numbers 17:6-11) 6 So Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, and all their chieftains went giving him a rod for each chieftain, a rod for each chieftain, by the house of their fathers, twelve rods; and Aaron’s rod was in among their rods. 7 Then Moses deposited the rods before Jehovah in the tent of the Testimony.
8 And it came about the next day that when Moses went into the tent of the Testimony, look! Aaron’s rod for the house of Le′vi had budded, and it was bringing forth buds and blossoming flowers and was bearing ripe almonds. 9 Moses then brought out all the rods from before Jehovah to all the sons of Israel, and they went looking and taking each man his own rod.
10 Subsequently Jehovah said to Moses: “Put Aaron’s rod back before the Testimony as something to be kept for a sign to the sons of rebelliousness, that their murmurings may cease from against me, that they may not die.” 11 At once Moses did just as Jehovah had commanded him. He did just so.
So, where's the 'budding rod' today? I'm not being sarcastic - it's just the question that needs to be answered.

Comment by anderestimme on 2013-10-13 17:24:16

What I found disturbing was that paragraph 11 was an example of what is condemned in paragraph 10, but to have made that comment would have been perceived as evidence of the syndrome described in paragraph 7.

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-13 17:33:43

  "Do as I say, not as I do...and you better not even point out that I'm not doing as I say or there will be consequences." Certainly not the spirit of freedom that should typify the Christian congregation.

  • Reply by Andronicus on 2013-10-14 13:48:26

    I don't get enraged against Jehovah but I do against brothers that claim to be God's channel of communication who flip-flop on doctrinal matters that involve the lives of millions of people. If these men do not claim divine inspiration then what they tell us are opinions and speculations open to scrutiny.

  • Reply by Andronicus on 2013-10-14 14:28:41

    Another thing, Meleti, There was comment in onre of the paragrphs about brothers asking, "Where was Jehovah when I neede him?". Why wouldn't someone ask that after listening to all those "encouraging" interviews at our Circuit and District Conventions. Pioneers who usually tell of near miraculous answers to their prayers. Is it any wonder that someone would ask, "Where is Jehovah when I need him?"

  • Reply by anderestimme on 2013-10-17 23:47:22

    I really got enraged - though not against Jehovah - when I read in paragraph 18 that "humility and modesty should help us to admit that we are limited in our understanding. (Rom. 9:20)". Talk about 'do as I say, not as I do'!

Comment by anderestimme on 2013-10-14 11:40:45

By the way, was Jesus ever mentioned in this article? I couldn't find him - not even in the last subheading "TREASURE YOUR PRECIOUS RELATIONSHIP WITH JEHOVAH". Once again, we've cut out the divinely appointed middle-man.

• Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-10-15 08:42:54

  I feel more and more that we are living a form of modern Judaism. I don't know whether it's because Jesus is being cut out of the picture by small degrees, or whether I am coming to a greater appreciation of who Jesus really is and why he must occupy a central role in our worship, or most likely an ongoing combination of the two, but it just feels wrong. I think I should change my username from Apollos to Nicodemus right now, because that's the way I'm feeling.
  You are right. The study article was a prime example. The fact that nobody in general even notices this speaks volumes about the spiritual direction of the organization, and sadly, the guided mindset of the people within it.
  Just as the Jews were capable of doing much good if they lived by the law, so to it is with the JW organization. But it matters not. This is not the way to the Father. There is only one way, and I fear that this indispensable truth is being watered down and lost.
  Apollos

  • Reply by kev c on 2013-10-15 12:35:01

    Dear apollos. Ive enjoyed your comments on this site as much as anyones. I also came to the conclusion a few years ago that the modern day congregation seems more like 1st century judaism than the religion jesus started. We could go on and on about scriptural evidence here but its negative. Its not easy for you brothers on this forum while still being in the congregation. Take heart. It doesnt suprise me. Think of the dragnet the wheat and the weeds. I think of 2 timothy 2 v 14 to 26. About the workman approved by god. The lord knows those who belong to him. We just need to try and do gods will as best we can in whatever siuation we find ourselves in. And keep loving people especially the brothers. From kev c

    • Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-10-15 13:46:13

      Thanks kev c. I'm sorry about the way you were treated. It's a sad situation to be sure.
      The system that has been created means that just as some claim that we cannot prove that anybody has lost their lives over the no-blood policy, we also cannot prove that anybody has been expelled from the congregation due to an honest pursuit of truth. The private nature of the tribunals means that the assumption by the faithful must always be that the elders had divine grounds to expel a person. If the issue at stake is scriptural truth then the only label that can be applied is "apostate".
      But just as nobody can apparently "prove" the effects of the no blood doctrine, nobody outside of the judicial committee, service desk or whoever else might have happened to get involved, can "prove" that unjust spiritual harm has been done to one of Jesus' sheep.
      I appreciate your outlook. You are right. We just need to try and do God's will as best we can in whatever situation we find ourselves in, and not allow our love to die.
      Thank you,
      Apollos

Comment by kev c on 2013-10-14 15:16:53

Totaly agree meleti there is no proof its yet another fabrication by the governing body. I was a brother for over 20 years. An elder for 10. I love the bible always have. I was always known in the congregation. For my knowledge of the bible which i read nearly every day. I have been reading your posts for some time now and i must say that for the most part.on many scriptural points i have arrived at the same conclusions as you have. Unfortunately i got sick of hearing the bible being twisted at nearly every meeting. When i raised my concerns to the elders i was disfellowshipped within 3 days they didnt even try and reason with me on the scriptures and they said that they are dedicated to the organisation. Now they ignore me in the street. I love them but i just wish they would put the watchtower down and start reading the bible from an unbiased viewpoint. Your. Brother and fellow christian kev c. From wales

• Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-10-14 20:25:45

  Hi Kev C,
  I have thought about discussing some of these issues with one or two of the local elders. The problem is what if they can't prove me wrong. I have no fear talking with them if they can prove me wrong. Because then I can simply accept their reasoning and all will be well. They will consider it a victory and having snatched their brother from the fire, they will be all "open arms." However, if they cannot prove me wrong, that is a very worrisome scenario. While there exists the possibility that I may win them over with the weight of scriptural evidence, the more likely scenario is the one you faced. Unable to defeat me and unwilling to acknowledge that their belief system is flawed, they'll resort to the age-old tactic of attempting to silence the troublesome thorn in their flesh. This is the tactic the Sanhedrin employed in 33 C.E. and is the same one applied countless times since by the various churches of Christendom. This is repression and persecution, plain and simple, and it identifies which side each party is on. True Christians are never depicted in the Bible persecuting those who simply reason honestly from the Bible, even if their reasoning is flawed. Only those who cannot support their teachings from God's word need to engage in repressive tactics.

  • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-10-14 22:25:12

    “I have spoken these things to you that you may not be stumbled. Men will expel you from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills you will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. 3 But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me. 4 Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to you that, when the hour for them arrives, you may remember I told them to you ." (John 16:1-4)

  • Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-10-14 22:27:56

    Therefore the very one having insight will in that time keep silent, for it will be a calamitous time. (Amos 5:13)

Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2013-10-16 01:41:39

For many years I conducted the Watchtower. And while I always viewed it a privilege, I also felt from the very beginning (and I’m talking over 35 years ago) there was something strangely contradictory in its content. I could never quite put my finger on it. It seemed as though the writer (in some cases, writers) were using a theme to carry another message, a contradiction. As many a brother used to say, nothing ever remained the as the writing committee intended by the time the service committee was finished editing it.
I recall when I finally relinquished the assignment over a decade ago, I maintained the adage to every brother thereafter, “Beware of the two minds of the Watchtower.” I wasn’t kidding. Somewhere, blended in like oil to water-based paint was a subliminal, alternate message painting a different picture, not unlike that depicted in 2001—Space Odyssey, where HAL the computer was given an alternate mandate resulting in the death of all except one of the crew.
When I became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, there was always this sense of pride—that we were all brothers in equality, no matter how small or great we appeared to each other. We prided ourselves in being the only religion without that hierarchal clergy-laity class distinction that so separated us from mainstream Christianity yet so contrary to what Christ taught. Never did I imagine that this secondary message and mindset was moving us in that very same direction. Now that it has happened, no one dares to discuss it.
How are we any different to the rest of Christendom should we continue on this path? How are we to have a conscience before Christ and answer him if we sacrifice unity in him and equality in brotherhood for the command of a hierarchal unity? As I watch the structure emerge so powerfully with the new appointments of “gifts in men” and their command to “be obedient” because only they are “taking the lead,” do they really know what lead they are taking?
I can only wait in silence for them to “render an account.” If I say a word of correction, if I expose them even once for driving off the weak and wounded, will I be presumptuously hastening Christ’s return. Yes I know that “the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few,” but what of those don’t “do in line with his will?” With how “many strokes” will they be beaten? Perhaps they will make their plea as did the Nazi war criminals, “We were just obeying the order given us!
Are they all so blind? Are they becoming so drunk with power they cannot see a hierarchy changing the landscape of what Christianity was supposed to be—the unified body of Christ doing the will of Christ? How different they have become! How very un-Christ-like we are all being made to become in order to be at unity with those who would bully into submission the very ones we should be willing to die for! Indeed—if what God has joined in marriage “let no man put apart,” how much less should what Christ has joined together in him be pulled apart by these ambitious mongers of power! Somehow I believe that when Jesus return, he will ask why they were so ready to obey—especially when he left the other question unanswered: “Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8)
May you all find peace in Christ,
sw

Comment by Chris on 2013-10-16 04:23:47

I think you have articulated the point very well SW.
For my part, I still remember the feeling of unease when reading an Awake article on famine in Africa ( I wasn't in Africa you understand :) ) and while it was correctly proclaiming God's kingdom as the solution to world hunger, it failed to mention that unless these poor afflicted people became JW before Armageddon their suffering would not end, unless they died first to enable a resurrection after Armageddon.
As we have all come to realize the WTS preach themselves, not Christ.
Its not "come to Jesus for salvation" but come to us and we will mediate for you.
They have become like brokers who are promoting a better package than you can get by dealing with Jesus directly.

Comment by blessednubian on 2013-10-21 20:19:23

Interestingly enough, the people Knew that Aaron had been chosen by Jehovah to act as High Priest, no one had ANY cause whatsoever to doubt. It was a known fact. It appears to me that the Governing Body is attempting to put itself in the same category as Aaron who was High Priest of Israel. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is High Priest and that he alone is the ONLY mediator between God and man.

• Reply by Andronicus on 2013-10-23 14:30:37

  Nicely stated blessednubian. The November Study Edition of The Watchtower states on page 20, paragraph 17, “When “the Assyrian” attacks…the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.”
  The implication here is that some brother or group of brothers will be given secret instructions or special information not presently known. This suggests that what we presently have from God’s Word through His Son is insufficient for survival. I find it contradictory that the brothers claim to be God’s channel of communication while at the same time not claiming divinely inspiration. You can’t have it both ways. Aaron and Moses were divinely inspired by God and were able to prove it.