Try raising an objection to something taught in the magazines using scriptures to support your position and you will inevitably be met with this counterpunch. Those who would use this argument against you truly think it is a valid one. They ignore the fact there is no scriptural support of any kind for the concept of an unquestionable human authority within the Christian congregation. Authority, yes; uncontestable authority, no. Those using this argument to silence all challenges will find ways to dismiss passages where Paul is praising disciples who verified everything in Scripture before accepting any teaching as truth. (Acts 17:11; Rom.3:4; 1 Thess. 5:21)
Of particular noteworthiness in this regard is Galatians 1:8:
“However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed.”
According to our teaching, Paul was a member of the first century governing body.[i] Based on this teaching, the “we” he refers to would have to include such an august body. Now, if even direction and teaching from the first century governing body was to be examined and evaluated as to whether or not it was in keeping with the truth already received under inspiration, how much more so should we be allowed to do the same today.
I say, “allowed to do so”, but that isn’t really an accurate application of Paul’s words, is it? What the apostle is saying can only be understood as a duty that all Christians must perform. Blindly accepting what we are taught is simply not an option.
Unfortunately, we as Jehovah’s Witnesses do not perform this duty. We are not obedient to this inspired direction. We have been given a blanket exemption by the very type of authority it is intended to guard us against. We do not ‘carefully examine the Scriptures daily’ to see if what we are taught in our publications or from the platform is to be found there. We do not “make sure of all things”, nor do we “hold fast to what is fine.” Instead, we are like those other religions we have disdained for decades as possessors of blind faith, believing without question all that their leaders have handed down to them. In fact, we are now worse than those groups, because they are not exhibiting the blind faith of decades past. Catholics and Protestants alike feel free to question and challenge many of their teachings. If they disagree with their churches, they can simply leave without fear of any official repercussions. None of that is true for us as Jehovah’s Witnesses.
This blind acceptance and unquestioning attitude is evidenced by the release of the latest issue of The Watchtower, February 15, 2014. To begin with, consider that the first two articles discuss Psalm 45, a particularly stirring song of praise to the future king. This is presented by the inspired psalmist as lovely poetic allegory. However, the writer of the article has no qualms about blithely interpreting every aspect of the Psalm, applying it to fit our current doctrinal structure involving 1914. No need is seen to provide any scriptural support for these interpretations. Why should there be? No one is going to question the them. We have been well trained to accept these things as true, because they come from an unimpeachable source.
The third study article discusses Jehovah as “Our Father”, both a provider and protector. What is strange about this is that the very next and final study article is titled: “Jehovah—Our Best Friend”. Now there’s nothing wrong, I guess, with considering your father as your best friend, but let’s be honest, it’s a bit odd. Besides, that really isn’t the thrust of the article. It isn’t talking about a son being a friend to his own father, but rather a non-son, an outsider to the family, is being encouraged to pursue friendship with the Father. So it would seem we are talking about being a best friend with someone else’s father. That fits within our doctrinal structure which considers the millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses on earth today as God’s friends, not his children.
I’m sure that the vast majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses who will study this article in the new year will not even notice the dichotomy of thinking of Jehovah as one’s Father while simultaneously considering oneself to be only his friend. Nor will they notice that the entire premise for the fourth article is based on a single Scripture applied to one of Jehovah’s servants in pre-Israelite times; at a time before there was a nation for his name, and centuries before there was a covenant relationship that led as a tutor to the Christ and an even better covenant that opened the way for the restoration of all things. We are skipping over all that and focusing on the unique-for-the-time relationship Abraham had as something to long for. If you were to go to a prince and tell him, forget about being the king’s son, what you really want is to be his friend, he’d probably toss you out of the palace.
I’m sure that some who read this post will counter with the objection that it doesn’t matter how many scriptures there are…as long as a single one exists, we have our proof. To such a one I would like to give the reassurance that I have no problem with God considering me a friend. My question is that as a Christian, under the teaching of the Christ, is that how Jehovah wants me to consider him?
Have a look at this sampling list of Christian-era scriptures. What type of relationship are they extolling?
- (John 1:12) . . .However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name;
- (Romans 8:16, 17) . . .The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.
- (Ephesians 5:1) . . .Therefore, become imitators of God, as beloved children,
- (Philippians 2:15) . . .that YOU may come to be blameless and innocent, children of God without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation, among whom YOU are shining as illuminators in the world,
- (1 John 3:1) 3 See what sort of love the Father has given us, so that we should be called children of God; and such we are. . . .
- (1 John 3:2) . . .Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. . . .
- (Matthew 5:9) . . .Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God. . .
- (Romans 8:14) . . .For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons.
- (Romans 8:19) . . .For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.
- (Romans 9:26) . . .‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
- (Galatians 4:6, 7) . . .Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So, then, you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God.
- (Hebrews 12:7) . . .It is for discipline YOU are enduring. God is dealing with YOU as with sons. For what son is he that a father does not discipline?
This is hardly an exhaustive list, yet it makes pretty clear the fact that Jehovah wants us to consider him as a Father and we as his children. Do we have an entire article dedicated to the idea that we should think of ourselves as God’s children? No! Why not. Because we are taught that we are not his children. Okay, then. Surely there must be another list of scriptures from the Christian writers to convey that idea. Would you like to see it? I’m sure you would. So here it is:
No, that’s not a misprint. The list is empty. No scriptures speak of that relationship between Jehovah and us. None. Nada. Zilch. If you doubt that—and you should— type “friend*” without the quotes into the WT Library search engine and look at every single instance of its appearance in the Christian Scriptures.
Convinced?
What we have is a concept we deem so important as to dedicate an entire study article to it and then invest into its consideration something in the order of 12 to 15 million man-hours (allowing for meeting preparation, travel and time at the study.) Yet, the Christian writers under inspiration didn’t invest a single line of text to the idea. Not a single line!
Growing Dismay
As I read through the issue, I found myself experiencing a sensation of growing dismay. I don’t want this to be the state of affairs when I read a magazine I’ve looked to all my life as a source of Bible instruction. I don’t want it to be faulty and I particularly don’t want it to be so transparently faulty. However, as I continued to read, I was to find my dismay growing still more.
The “Question From Readers” that concludes the magazine examines whether the Jews understood the chronology of Daniel’s prophecy of the Seventy Weeks. The premise the writer works from is: “While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed.” The rest of the article goes out of its way to show that while we can’t rule it out, they probably didn’t understand the chronology.
One reason given is that there were “many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding.” We seem to be implying that we know all the interpretations that existed 2,000 years ago? How could we? Worse, we are implying that our present understanding of a prophecy is the right one, but none of their interpretations were. This seems preposterous, does it not? To begin with, today we have to go with the archeological findings and chronological calculations of secular scholars. The Jews of Jesus’ day just had to wander into the temple archives where the records would show the precise date that the events marking the starting point occurred. We have to read translations of Daniel’s words. They could read and understood it in the original tongue. Are we really suggesting our understanding must be more accurate than theirs?
That there were erroneous interpretations of Daniel’s prophecy is hardly reason to conclude there weren’t accurate ones as well. Today, there are many erroneous interpretations of the Bible teaching on death or the nature of God. Are we to then conclude that no one has it right. That doesn’t bode well for us, does it?
One of the article’s examples is not even relevant. It refers to a misinterpretation on the part of Jews in the second century. But the question being asked is whether Jews during the time of Jesus understood the prophecy. Of course, Jews in the second century would have a wrong interpretation. To have admitted to the right one would be to have admitted that the Messiah did come on schedule and they killed him. Using this example to ‘prove’ our point is—and I’m very sorry to have to use this word but it is Biblical and more important, it is accurate—just plain stupid.
Another point to discourage the idea that the Jews understood the prophecy of the 70 weeks at the time of its fulfillment is that no Bible writer makes mention of it. Matthew does mention the fulfillment of many Hebrew Scripture prophecies, so why not this one? The fact is that many of Matthew’s references are arcane and wouldn’t likely have been widely known. For instance, he says, “and came and dwelt in a city named Nazareth, that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophets: ‘He will be called a Nazarene.’”(Mat. 2:23) There is no Hebrew Scripture that actually says that, and it appears that Nazareth didn’t exist at the time the Hebrew Scriptures were penned. Apparently, Matthew is alluding to references to Jesus being the ‘sprout’, which is the etymological root of the name, Nazareth. Like I said, arcane. So there was a valid reason for Matthew to point out all these minor prophetic fulfillments found in Jesus’ life. (Isa. 11:1; 53:2; Jer. 23:5; Zech. 3:8)
However, if the prophecy of the 70 weeks was widely known, there would be no reason to highlight it. Why point out something that is common knowledge. Slim reasoning perhaps, but consider this. Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem. The successful fulfillment of that prophecy would have gone a long way to bolstering the confidence in the Messiah among both Jews and Gentiles at the close of the first century when the Apostle John penned is gospel, letters and the Revelation. Yet, though written more than 30 years after the event, John makes no mention of it. If we are to take the absence of mention of a prophetic fulfillment by Bible writers as proof that they didn’t understand it, then we cannot only conclude that the 70 weeks of Daniel were not understood, but have to add in the fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem.
This is clearly fallacious reasoning.
Did the writers not mention the fulfillment of the 70 weeks because it was already common knowledge, or did Jehovah not inspire them to write it down for other reasons? Who can say? However, to conclude that a prophecy intended specifically to foretell the arrival of the Messiah down to the very year went unnoticed or misunderstood by all, including the faithful, is to assume that God failed in his purpose to make this truth known. The fact is everyone was in expectation of the Messiah’s arrival at that very time. (Luke 3:15) The accounts of the shepherds thirty years prior might have had something to do with that, but a chronological prophecy pinpointing the year would have surely been of greater impact. Consider also that the prophecy needed no interpretation. Unlike our own chronology pointing to 1914 which is built on a dozen assumptions and speculative interpretations, the 70 weeks gives a clear indication of its starting point, its time period, and its ending point. No real interpretation needed. Just go with what it says and look stuff up in the temple archives.
That was precisely what the prophecy was put in place to provide.
Given that, why are we going out of our way to discourage the idea that they could have understood it at that time. Could it be because if they had understood it, we are left to explain how they couldn’t have also understood the other prophecy of Daniel we say pinpoints the start of Christ’s invisible presence?
At Acts 1:6 the disciples ask if Jesus was about to restore the kingdom of Israel. Why ask that if they could simply have toddled off to the temple, looked up the precise year Jerusalem was destroyed (no need for secular scholars then) and done the math? It seems incongruous that we, two millennia later, could understand that prophecy, but the Jewish disciples after 3 ½ years learning at the feet of Jesus would be ignorant of it. (John 21:25) However, if we can be convinced that they didn’t even understand the single-fulfillment 70 Weeks prophecy which very obviously calls for a chronological calculation, then how could they be expected to figure out the far more esoteric dual-fulfilment nature of the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream?
So returning to the original question: “Do you think you know more than the Governing Body?” I wish I could say no. They are eight members out of eight million. They are each truly ‘one in a million’. One would think that Jehovah would have picked the best of the best. I’m sure that is what the majority of us believe. So it saddens me greatly when we publish articles like this that can be so easily shown to contain flaws in reasoning. I am not special. I hold no doctorate in ancient languages. What I know about the Bible I learned by studying it with the help of the publications of the Watchtower society. I—WE—are like a university student studying biology, who learns a great deal of truth mixed in with a lot of scientific false doctrine. That student will be grateful for the truth he has learned but will wisely not idealize his teachers, especially if he has seen that they have also taught a lot of silly evolutionary falsehood.
So the fact is, the original question is based on a false premise. It is not that I know more or need to know more than the Governing Body. What I know is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Jehovah has given his word to me and to you and to all of us. The Bible is our road map. We can all read. We may get guidance from men on how to use the road map, but in the end, we have to go back to it to verify that they are not leading us down the garden path. We are not allowed to throw the map away and rely on men to navigate for us.
I feel dismay at reading magazines like the February 15, 2014 issue because I think that we could be so much better than this. We should be. Sadly we are not, and even more sadly, we seem to be getting worse.
I certainly do and concur with your spirit. All I feel I need to say to anyone on this forum or to those visiting is, don’t dismiss the evidence around you when you encounter something that challenges your beliefs. Calm, reasoned debate (a misrepresented word by the Watchtower) is an important and necessary part of letting ideas breathe, be tested, be scrutinized. You beautifully and respectfully debate on this forum, regarding things pertaining to the Bible. It is just as valid and worth it to do your personal research on the validity of the book itself.
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Andronicus I agree, as Jesus said KEEP doing this in remembrance of me, it is a commandment, one recognizes that we accept this gift baptism and the memorial I believe are all tied in together.
For the past few years after much prayer and scripture meditation, I certainly think all those who are ministers of Christ including the GC are his disciples, Christians doing Gods will in faith, and faith in the ransom is one of the baptismal questions.
Thanks, Katrina. There’s no scriptural basais for me to simply be an “observer”. I’m tired of being on the outside looking in. Enough.
The best option for me? Purchase some unleveaned bread, some wine, and partake in private.
I totally agree with you Chris. I cringe when I hear some of my friends say something like …”I keep up with my magazines, but I have to get better with my Bible reading.” Not trying to be judgmental but why is it not the reverse? We are literally flooded with information from the GB, the daily text, multiple new releases from the conventions, yearbooks, and the Watchtower and Awake every month. Not to mentin the KM’s and studying the various books for the TMS. I haven’t even touched the preparation for service. At one time I prided myself on… Read more »
Youve got it. Only when we put thier yoke down will we find the time to increase in bible knowledge. Keep them busy thats the policy
GodsWordIsTruth said “It’s a weird circumstance because if you didn’t know us and overheard our conversation you would swear that we have totally different religious backgrounds” Amen to that sister. From my conversations with my wife I know exactly what you mean. I mean no disrespect to your husband, but it’s a bit like their growth has become stunted after years of a poor spiritual diet (while being told it is healthy) They lack the necessary spiritual vitamins and minerals that you can only get from feeding from God’s word before it has been washed, filtered, refined and repackaged by… Read more »
Thanks very much for all your comments and concern. I’m not sure how I strayed from the original post but thank you very much for allowing it 🙂 I agree that taking a step back is best at this time. It’s very hard because we shared so much spiritually together.I believe focusing in the things we have in common would be a positive step in the right direction. It’s a weird circumstance because if you didn’t know us and overheard our conversation you would swear that we have totally different religious backgrounds…..I will continue to pray to Jehovah for direction.… Read more »
GodsWordIsTruth I feel for you and am concerned for your situation. It is true that if push comes to shove, we must put Jesus Christ before even close family members (Matt 10:37). It seems clear that Jesus was using hyperbole to help us to see what the ultimate decision should always be if there was a conflict, although I think it’s noteworthy that he did not bring husband or wife into this context. In general the letters of the apostles make clear that the marriage arrangement can and should withstand religious differences. It’s clear that you do not want your… Read more »
Totally agree with all those comments and have tried to apply them all the way through as my wife has never been a christian. It works we are still going strong after all these years. Dont ever give up love is a perfect bond of union and overides any differences we have. Kev.
Gods word is truth. This is a tough one for you. Your hubby sounds well meaning and is just probably qouting what he has been led to believe is the truth. This about the conscience is familiar watchtower reasoning. Its been used as a catch all net for many years. However whose consscience is the most important. This in some respects is the bottom line a crisis of conscience. What does your conscience tell you to do. 1 peter 3 is good on this point. It speaks of.how a husband and wife should act toward one another then goes on… Read more »
I really, really appreciate your thoughts Kev C. He is worried. My stance is hardening as I get older and grow in understanding by means of Jehovah , but the questions and disagreement I have with the GB is not new to him. In the past he has just strongly encouraged me to wait on Jehovah . After our conversations I pray about these matters and then continue to wrestle with my thoughts. A year ago I told him that I’m happy to discuss the Bible in our family worship sessions but the printed material from the society is out.… Read more »
My heart breaks for you. I can’t imagine how difficult this is. My wife lags behind me in her awakening, but she can see the logic and loves truth more than men, or an Organization. Coincidentally, she told me she doesn’t want to go this week to the WT because she finds that type of article very discouraging. This is a women who pioneered in two foreign assignments where there was a greater need. What your husband seems to be exhibiting–if I may be so bold–is blind faith. For years I’ve seen how blind faith has torn apart families in… Read more »
Thank you very much for your thoughts Meleti. He was raised in the “truth”as well and comes from a family that is very rooted “ in the truth” He often reassures me that it is okay to have questions about the JW doctrines. I respectfully correct him and tell him that they started out as questions but after research over the years and prayer they are now disagreements with the JW doctrine and that is not okay in the organization. He is insistent that the GB does not ask for implicit obedience and that they do not imply that if… Read more »
Dear sister you may have to just agree to disagree at least for a while on these points. Dont let religion destroy your family ive seen it too many times. Cling to faith hope and love. These are the most important things. As for your children in the end they are more likely to respond to christian qualities more than doctrine. Kev
Dear GodsWordIsTruth, While I cannot add much wisdom to this, neither do I wish to add dilemma, You and I seem to be in reverse even to the point that my wife and I have ceased discussing our differences. Not wishing to take anything away from conscience (since the Governing Body is her mediator and head at present) at this point, I simply let her have her view and carefully skirt around anything that might seem to her as disrespectful to them. I’m sure she would think I’m a potential threat to her spirituality if I did anything but support… Read more »
I appreciate your comments. The situation is reversed with me.He feels like his headship is threatened .I try to reassure him it is not. But he views my unwillingness to “submit” to the GB’s views on the Bible as an act of unfaithfulness in “what is least”. He asked for a shepherding call a few months back and I politely declined. That is not a forum for the kind of issues I am having.
I often think that Luke’s account in Luke 12:47, 48 applies in so many areas of our conscience: “Then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes. But the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few.”
Very well put, Meleti. Even without the scripture references my brain was sufficiently overdosed on scripture as I read it. 🙂
From the many excellent comments on this subject, it is obvious that we all feel the need to obey our Lord and partake of the emblems at the next memorial. That we have in common. The question is how to go about it. The other concern is how to deal with the consequences. That there should be consequences–negative consequences–for such a simple and sacred act is in itself an atrocious commentary on what we have become as a religious Organization. Each comment I’ve read expresses thoughtful and sound reasoning. This is clearly a matter of conscience. I see no clear… Read more »
We are bound to obey His command. I don’t believe that there is one group of people that are commerating this occasion based on the scriptures. Yet, that does not absolve us from the responsiblity as we read in to be from the scriptures. I respect the conscience of both who feel the need to partake and those who choose to not. I’m praying fervently to Jehovah for direction and the wisdom to recognize His direction when he gives it. I really don’t want to gravely offend others. I hate idolatry but I’m not going to storm in church and… Read more »
While I have been ‘inactive’ for many years I have always attended the Memorial, and for years I accorded it the dignity I felt it deserved. Last year was distinctly different for me. I felt the whole occasion was empty and I saw it for what it really has become. It is little more than a sad ritual to elevate the anointed when it should be a proclamation of our Master’s return. I would go far enough to say the Holy Spirit was not present. It actually made me angry because it was just so disrespectful and formulaic. The brother… Read more »
My husband and I had this very discussion tonight. He proceeded to say ” Even if you are right and this command to partake of the emblems applies to all Christians why would you risk stumbling so many in the congregation? ( I presume that he feels that others would be so gravely stumbled because I am only 32 and it would be whispers all over the congregation leading the elders ultimately approaching about this matter) He then proceeded to quote scriptures( that we are all familiar with )where Paul talks at length about respecting the consciences of others. He… Read more »
There are two ways for Jehovah to clarify matters. One is for him to correct the GB and make them do things right. That belief is based on the idea that we are the true religion. The problem with it is that Jehovah has never done that before. He is the same yesterday, today and forever so that doesn’t bode well for those hoping for him to correct matters. After all, the nation of Israel was his true religion and he destroyed it. The second way that he could clarify things is the way he has always used. He sends… Read more »
For some reason my post was posted twice… sorry….
Very good comments! Apollo I want to make sure that I understand your view…. Do you believe that JW’s view of who should partake in the Lords Evening meal is unscriptual?If so, are you saying essentially that you would not partake because their view takes away from the occasion? I’m not sure that anyone religion is observing this command properly…
I suppose when it comes down to it, I am not satisfied that it is the occasion. It is part of JW liturgy yes. But is it truly the “Lord’s Evening Meal” as outlined in scripture? Now that we are having this conversation I realize that this question has been building in my mind for many years. We are there to hear a talk – more than half of which is to explain why you should really not partake of the emblems. Then we observe each person politely rejecting the symbols of Jesus’ body and blood. The attendants breath a… Read more »
Well said, Apollos and I know the frustration of illegitimacy surrounding our particular celebration.Yet if you dare miss the occasion there is a commotion: “S/he didn’t even come to memorial!” And if you sit there and dutifully pass the emblems without a sip or nibble, you might feel as many have expressed that it more resembles a black sabbath in a coven of witches. Seeing this from both sides, I was bound by conscience (my own as everyone should) and partook for the first time. That was the worst. My wife being so upset and the silence of others so… Read more »
There are certain things which a person may, in all good conscience and with best intent, wish to say or do, knowing that there is no possible way to say or do those things without others taking it the wrong way. Partaking at our memorial is one example. Explaining the issues I have with the occasion itself is another. I know that there will be readers of this blog who may read my comments as sacrilege since I am questioning the validity of the ceremony that they treat as the most holy night of the year. I apologize to those… Read more »
Meleti- You and others are focused on the natural concern – what can they or will they do to us. But those whom God has adopted as sons are obligated to embrace and respond to the glorious freedom of the children of God, without fear of man. Romans 8: 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God.+ 20 For the creation was subjected to futility,+ not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set… Read more »
Quite right you are. We must make “public declaration for salvation”, and partaking is part of that public declaration. (Rom. 10:10)
(1 Corinthians 11:26) . . .For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.
But therein lies the reality. The eating of the loaf and drinking of the cup at the annual memorial is not performed as a proclamation of the death of the Lord in anticipation of his arrival. Neither would it be seen as such by those observing (present company excepted). Partaking at JW memorials has long become a symbol for something else entirely. It is a statement of where a person believes that s/he stands within the two-hope system inaugurated by Rutherford’s doctrines. Unless those who see me partake recognize the reasons for my doing so and are prepared to accept… Read more »
The same thought struck me as well apollos that scripture as often as you partake you keep on proclaiming the death of the lord until he arrives. Doesnt seem to get a mention at the memorial. I do see the need to partake. But. Considering pauls words at 1 corinthians 5. V 7 and 8. Let us keep the festival ……. With.sincerety and truth. And looking at the surrounding context. I would rather do it alone. Sad really considering its a communion meal. Kev
kev c
That is a really solid point. It truly matters who is present and in agreement with the meaning of the occasion. I had not read that passage before in this light.
Thank you,
Apollos
Thanks apollos its probably the same reason jesus dismissed judas iscariot from the first observance. Kev
Excellent scriptural reference!
While I agree with you Apollos, there is one thing missing. Each of us have a conscience, albeit restricted by whatever external organizational forces that exist. As such some are more conscientious than others, and more sensitive. We’re all on differing pages and so your conscience might differ from mine, whereas my discernment might lead me to a different understanding. Clearly, we are not Catholic, but neither are we to be SO bound to organizational dogma that we cannot do what conscience dictates. These are matters that need no explanation or apology. I know why I partake. And it is… Read more »
Hi sw1, I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but most certainly I respect the conscientious decision of others who see this matter differently. I hope you noticed my final sentence “It’s just my view, and I’m not trying to impose it on others.” If I were to see partakers at our memorial I would rejoice at their decision. I truly respect your public declaration sw1. At this stage I do not make the decision to partake outside of the arrangement simply because of how some individuals would view me. As kev c points out this is… Read more »
My husband and I had this very discussion tonight. He proceeded to say ” Even if you are right and this command to partake of the emblems applies to all Christians why would you risk stumbling so many in the congregation? ( I presume that he feels that others would be so gravely stumbled because I am only 32 and it would be whispers all over the congregation leading the elders ultimately approaching about this matter) He then proceeded to quote scriptures( that we are all familiar with )where Paul talks at length about respecting the consciences of others. He… Read more »
GodsWordIsTruth Jesus made clear that we would have a measure of obstacles and a degree of anxiety in carrying out our Christian lives and duties. If you are convinced that you should partake, then your first commitment is to ensure that you do so. I and others here will agree with you that the active commemoration of the meal is evidently not in the category of “things we shouldn’t do it it offends others”. The first century Christians were viewed suspiciously by society in general because they maintained their privacy in liturgical matters. But that was from people on the… Read more »
I do see your point and even agreed with it for a time. However, there are many sincere but misled Christians attending the memorial. If brothers and sisters who are respected as examples in the congregation begin to partake and if this gives courage to others so that each year more and more respected ones who cannot be easily dismissed as whack jobs partake, it is bound to have positive consequences.
The fact that the physical man will misjudge the spiritual man is no reason for the spiritual man to hide what he does.
Interesting article, Meleti. Regarding your later comment: The trick is not to give them a reason to think they are acting in the cause of righteousness. In the end, however it comes down, does it really matter? I personally look forward to disfellowshipping if it means removing that horrendous mark of the beast (Rev. 13:16,17) Acts 5:41 – The apostles left the high council rejoicing that God had counted them worthy to suffer disgrace for the name of Jesus. If we view suffering for Christ as an honor than the pain is lessened, although I speak for myself. I am… Read more »
It is not mine to give, I am inspired remember 😉
This is true. While I used to think my appointment as a prophet was in 1985 (when I was baptized) I have now come to realize that this happened in 2012. While reversing out my driveway I saw the words OBJECTS ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR in my side mirror. I initially thought nothing of it, but when I approached a road worker holding a sign that said SLOW MEN AT WORK I began to think I could help these slow men to see that the end was closer than they thought! But I brushed it off as a whimsey.… Read more »
If we could get you and anderestimme together, we could probably open up a traveling comedy duo. There’s money in it. We could book the Kingdom halls in the midwest, polish the routine and then open in New York to rave reviews.
Only if you pick the songs 🙂
We would need a corporation, a board of directors and a limousine.
Scratch that!
I will be the President and I want a V-16 Cadillac.
If you didn’t laugh sometimes you would cry.
If it wasn’t for the encouragement amongst brothers and sisters here, I would have lost the plot sometime ago. Just knowing that there are many who have not bent their knee to the WTS is deeply comforting to me.
Meleti- Thank you for continued insight on the matter of millions of us being brought into the new covenant as sons of God. Given the present situation at “headquarters”, what can we do about this? Just complain about WT articles and tell each other organization horror stories, of which there is no shortage? The scriptures and our relationship to Jehovah through the Christian faith give millions of us an obvious opportunity to vote, not only with our feet and voices, but with our lips – by partaking of the memorial emblems as members of the new covenant, which we are… Read more »
That is an excellent idea, my brother. If we all partook publicly it would be a silent and safe protest against the false doctrine of the two-tier system. Imagine if thousands of new partakers appear next memorial. Headquarters would have a bird, but what could anyone do. The key would be to partake, but if asked for our reason, we simply reply that it is an intensely personal decision. Period. End of story. They may try to get us to incriminate ourselves (at least in their eyes) by admitting we believe the official position is false, but if we hold… Read more »
Problem could be with that one meleti if they are out to get you they will. If they cant get you on one charge theyll try to get you on aselgia loose conduct. Which they think has to do with a bad attitude toward the society or the elders. Looking at the greek in barclays new testament words it not of course but it is being used. As a. Trump card to get the unwanted out of the congregation when they cant pin you down. And ive seen it used. A few times. Sad to say the least we are… Read more »
“Any excuse will serve a tyrant.” That being said, one can avoid much unnecessary suffering by remembering to obey Jesus’ words about not throwing pearls before swine. The Pharisees tried to do away with Jesus for three years, but couldn’t until he was betrayed. From experience, I would say the best advice in these circumstances is to remain silent. Never answer a direct question. If you have the ability to remain silent and let the silence build, do so. What can they put on the blue card? Disfellowshipped for refusing to answer our questions? Alternately, the technique our master used… Read more »
They would no doubt write a WT article counseling against such an event. You can almost preempt the language ” It is unfortunate that in these last days with the end so close upon us, that some individuals are desirous of more prominence amongst their fellow brothers and sisters. Not satisfied with the spiritual bounty and blessings that come from being a member of the Other Sheep these ones have sought to sow dissent and confusion by laying claim to the heavenly hope at this time. We need to ask ourselves, “Am I worthy to humbly take up this mantle… Read more »
Chris, you may have the gift of prophecy. 🙂
This made me laugh out loud! Wow this is exactly how this would be worded!!
Thank you for this article Meleti !! It really helps me to know that I am not alone in my growing dismay with the organization. When I am asked the question “Do you think you know more than the Governing Body?”, my thoughts usually go to the vast number of things they have said over the years that proved to be wrong. Which means it is quite possible that they can be wrong about something today also. But if you point that out, they go to their favorite escape hatch at Proverbs 4:18 which says: “But the path of the… Read more »
II quite agree that the Organization has been misapplying Prov. 4:18 all along. However, I didn’t know there was a word for that. I should have. There’s a word for everything in English, it seems. “Eisegesis”. I like it! Thanks for adding to my vocabulary. Keep up that independent thinking. 😉
Yes proverbs 4 v 18. Has nothing to do with prophecy. Its all about the effects wisdom has on a young mans life. I dont know how they get away with it
I’m sorry to say this Meleti, but there is no such thing as “official doctrine”, “present truth” or “falsehood” in science. The scientific method seeks to prove what is not true. It’s based on empirical evidence. When new evidence emerges old ideas are discarded. It’s updated by the constant scrutiny of fellow scientists. This ensures that science be self-correcting. There’s no one whose views are not subject to question, and this is imperative to science. You can dismiss scientific knowledge and evolution as false or silly, but are you prepared to let the Bible be equally scrutinized? PS: Even the… Read more »
In true science, that is the case. It is also the case in true religion. However, in the science and religion that is practiced by imperfect humans, it is very much not the case. Ben Stein did an excellent documentary on this called, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. It shows that in the area of control by a unchallengable hierarchy science and religion are kinfolk. Scientists that dissent with the establishment in the area of intelligent design and evolution are punished in much the same way that religions punish those who dissent with established doctrine. I am prepared to let the… Read more »
Intelligent Design is a pseudoscience which attempts to rebrand creationism in a “scientific” cloak. It has produced no positive evidence for its claims. The Bible does not agree with established scientific facts. Life evolves.
You are wrong, but this isn’t a site for debating creation vs. evolution, so we’ll leave it at that.
It’s a nice idea Alec, and in certain branches of science it works well enough. However if a person begins with an unassailable premise rather than allowing the evidence to speak freely then the truth will be stifled. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. (Job 38:4, New Living Translation) As far as the exercise of the scientific method as applied to the origins of the universe and biogenesis, the evidence has only moved us closer to the argument for an intelligent source. At least, that is if you… Read more »
Evolution is a fact. The evidence is available more than ever before.
A fact requires proof, but there is none. Again, a topic for a different site. If you wish to debate it, I’m sure there are many sites which will welcome you. Here, our interest is the investigation of the Bible.
Quite so. A truly open-minded, self-confident, and firm study should read the opposing view to know what exactly it is rejecting.
Quite so. I can’t speak for others on this forum, but I have done just that, though for years, put decades. An open mind should not be an indecisive mind. There comes a time when the open minded individual realizes he/she has reviewed all the available evidence, weighed all the arguments on both sides, and decides it’s time to reach a conclusion and move on. Of course, if there are forum members who have not yet reached that point and would like to review the evidence in the evolution vs. creation debate, there are many places on the internet to… Read more »
To be fair Alec, it’s been explained before that we don’t want these topics sidelined into the debate you seek. To call ID a pseudoscience is just an appeal to the clamor of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, et al, with the hope that if you shout loud enough and sneeringly enough then people will believe this label. It’s true that the theory of ID is not science in the sense that we cannot reproduce it at every step of the way. The same is true of the theory of evolution. It is all based upon inference, not on scientifically reproducible steps.… Read more »
The evidence is out there. Don’t take my word for it. Research it, read it, don’t ignore or be intimated by it.
Geology, archaeology, and the entire corpus of biological science have demonstrated evolution as incontrovertible fact.
I don’t know what leads you to believe that I ignore it or am intimidated by it. You have no way of knowing how much I have read from both sides of the argument. You are simply assuming you know. If you have this tendency to assume, you are likely also making assumptions in assessing the scientific evidence. You needn’t have concern that I will just take your word for it. I find it hard to listen any argument presented as “incontrovertible” when clearly it is not. As far as I am concerned only someone with a completely closed mind… Read more »
Please ignore me and consider the evidence.
Anyone interested should read, “My Pilgrimage from Atheism to Theism – An Exclusive Interview with Former British Atheist Professor Antony Flew.”
DR. ANTONY FLEW, Professor of Philosophy, Former atheist, author, and debater, once considered the greatest debater against intelligent design. It is readily downloadable on the internet.
http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1336&context=lts_fac_pubs
Not a scientist.
Oh well. There it is then…
A study on what scientists believe can be found below.
Eminent scientists reject the supernatural: a
survey of the Fellows of the Royal Society
http://www.evolution-outreach.com/content/pdf/1936-6434-6-33.pdf
He was until he denied atheism at which time Dawkins threw him under the bus. Strange how the scientific community can become so religiously tied to dogma.
He wasn’t.
Logic and reason exist independently from any branch of science. No good science however can exist independently from logic and reason.
Please answer me one question Alec. In your view is abiogenesis “incontrovertible”? Logically if you answer yes, you must be able to explain (and perhaps even demonstrate) an exact scientific method. If you answer no, then you should really calm down your rhetoric.
Abiogenesis is a fact. Regardless of how you imagine it happened it is a fact that there once was no life on earth and that now there is.
So it is clear that you like to use the words “fact” and “incontrovertible” when in reality you admit that you can only “imagine” how things happened. Some scientific method.
It happened. And regardless of what I imagine so did/does evolution. Again, what I think is irrelevant, study the evidence.
Regardless of what you imagine, there is a God. Study the evidence.
I have.
Me too. I think I mentioned that to you multiple times. However it didn’t stop you repeating yourself ad nauseam.
Study the evidence.
Answering your questions is far more interesting than replying to your ad hominem attacks.
But you and I have different ideas as to what constitutes an answer. I asked you about abiogenesis, and rather than supporting your scientific claim, you simply implied that it was self-evident. Well I also feel that God is self-evident. But in addition to his self-evidence I believe that there is ample external evidence. Your statement on abiogenesis in my view is akin to the ancients saying “a sun is born anew each day”. You state that something must be so, but only because you work on a certain premise and rule out another premise according to your preconceptions. Had… Read more »
Alec In my opinion, your interjection on these comment threads with no substance, but just a repeating of the same rhetoric every time is giving the impression that you wish to be perceived as an atheist troll. (For those that may not know what I mean – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll) If you raised a serious question to answer, or offered anything of value, I could accept that, but really I don’t think you have anything to offer except empty words that sideline our discussions. In line with Meleti’s previous request, please just go and find somewhere else to air these vacuous mantras.… Read more »
Thank you so much Apollos, I appreciate your kind and true words. This is what studying God’s word is all about. an INTERCHANGE of thought, ideas and encouragement. Not one person talk and everybody listen and not dare say anything contrary. The idea is to learn and to grow, to think along fresh new lines and thereby gain greater understanding. We will never learn all there is to know abut Jehovah God, there will always be something new to learn. I look forward to learning about my Heavenly Father throughout eternity.
Agape,
Silvertop
Dear sister try not to be too downhearted about these things. It is upsetting to see they way things are going in the congregations. But try and look for positives. Accurate bible knowledge leads to love and we need to find ways of lavishing this love on others. Rejoice i say. Matthew 5 v 1 to 16. Warm christian love. Kev c
I cried when I read your article. It was such a relief to read what I’ve been feeling for so long. The BIBLE says we ARE God’s CHILDREN. His Sons and Daughters. The WTBTS says that we can only hope to be His friends. I read the Bible and feel the closeness and love of my Heavenly Father, I go to the Kingdom Hall and feel like I am the most worthless little thing to ever look towards the sunshine! Meletivivlon, if ever you harbor doubts that your blog here is not useful, is not needed, rest assured that your… Read more »
Silvertop Once we appreciate that only God can “be found true, though every man be found a liar” (Rom 3:4) then we can realign our expectations accordingly. We have been sold on the idea that the organization is the exception to this rule along with many other things that the Bible says about dependency on humans. The fact is that no human can give you absolute truth. Neither the Watchtower, anyone writing on this site, or any other human source. However what we can do is sharpen each other through discussion of God’s Word, and this site is a great… Read more »
This question do the governing body know more about the bible than us leads us to some quite serious implications. If the answer is yes they do. Then we have to ask why is it that many of the doctrines and so called theocratic procedures seem out of harmony with scriptures and their obvious contextual application many at this point will say that they are not. I say to those brothers read the christian scriptures every day in an undertone and in context day after day for years then ask yourself that question again. Could it be argued for doing… Read more »
Kev, You have well articulated the disconnect. Either there is special new knowledge contrary to Galatians chapter 1, or we should be able to “call out for understanding itself” as per Proverbs 2, and “find the very knowledge of God”. If we read, pray and meditate, He will not hand us serpent when we ask for something good (Matt 7:7-11). The fact that many of us have reached similar conclusions by a personal and independent (yes I dare utter the word) study of God’s Word cannot be shrugged off as some sort of deception by the Devil. It is when… Read more »
Recent “generations” at the Kingdom Halls may not know that we stopped using the term “Bulletin Board” decades ago for the reason that letters and instructions from the Watchtower Society did not carry the weight of Papal Bulls.
Evidently that policy changed, along with the meaning of “generation.”
Excellent Article! I review the articles and comments on this site every day and was pleasantly surprised that you posted something new! Maybe the question is “Does the eight member governing body know more than 8 MILLION of God’s people?” As previously stated on this site for them to declare that they are God’s spokesmen and demand obedience to unscriptural reasoning and speculation is horrid. However, the fact that you can still read the watchtowers and not get nauseous is commendable. I was an avid reader until about three months ago. Perhaps I will resume if for nothing else to… Read more »
Thank you so much.
Yes, GodsWordIsTruth, sharpen your mind, and at the risk of repeating ad nauseam keep popping those anti-inflammatories to combat the urges and surges of salacities! We are all enduring together!
Amen!
The Feb 15 issue has left me in a state of spiritual apoplexy. Thanks for taking it on in its own terms. One is tempted to post it on the information – ahem now Bulletin Board – at the KH.
Powerful stuff Meleti. The opening question has led to circular reasoning at its finest. How do we know the GB know more than we do? Because they teach us these “truths”. How do we know that they are truths? Because they are taught to us by the GB. Outside of this all I hear is an appeal to statistics. The GB and JWs in general must have God’s backing because of growth and success. This clearly ignores the reality that many organizations, both religious and secular experience growth and success, some of them in outstanding ways. When playing with so… Read more »