[There are some insightful and thought-provoking comments under the post “The Devil’s Great Con Job” which got me thinking about what congregation membership really entails. This post is the result.]
“Membership has its privileges.”
This is not only the advertising slogan for a popular credit card, but it is a key part of the JW psyche. We are taught to believe that our salvation depends on the continued good standing of our membership within the Organization. This has been the case since the days of Rutherford.
How urgent it is in the short remaining time for one to identify himself with the New World society within the arklike new system of things! (w58 5/1 p. 280 par. 3 Living Up to the Name)
Will you remain in the ark-like spiritual paradise into which you have entered? (w77 1/15 p. 45 par. 30 Facing the “Great Tribulation” with Confidence)
For the security and survival of true worshipers, an arklike spiritual paradise exists. (2 Corinthians 12:3, 4) To be preserved through the great tribulation, we must remain in that paradise. (w03 12/15 p. 19 par. 22 Our Watchfulness Takes On Greater Urgency)
‘Membership has its privileges, foremost of which is salvation.’ That is the message.
Of course, the concept of the organization acting as a sort of modern-day Noah’s ark is a fabrication found only in our publications. We use the simile found in 1 Peter 3:21 which compares the Ark to baptism, and by some theological sleight of hand transform it into a metaphor for the protection that membership affords.
The idea that simply staying inside the organization is a guarantee of salvation is a most appealing one. It is a sort of paint-by-numbers route to salvation. Just do what you are told, obey the elders, the traveling overseers, and of course, the direction from the Governing Body, participate regularly in field service, attend all the meetings and your salvation is pretty much assured. Like walking into the ark of Noah’s day, it’s really quite simple. Once inside, and as long as you remain inside, you’re safe.
This idea is not new. C.T. Russell wrote in Studies in the Scriptures, Volume 3, p. 186: “It is begotten of the false idea, first promulgated by Papacy, that membership in an earthly organization is essential, pleasing to the Lord and necessary to everlasting life.”
He also wrote on the following page: “But no earthly organization can grant a passport to heavenly glory. The most bigoted sectarian (aside from the Romanist) will not claim, even, that membership in his sect will secure heavenly glory.” Hmm…. “The most bigoted sectarian (aside from the Romanist [and the Jehovah’s Witness]”, it would seem. How very ironic those words now seem in light of the above excerpts from our publications.
He also eschewed the naming of a religion, which is why under his term we were known simply as Bible students. That didn’t suit brother Rutherford, however. He worked from the beginning of his presidency to get all the congregations under centralized control. What he liked to call a theocratic arrangement. Under Russell, congregations of Bible Students were loosely affiliated with The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. Rutherford needed to give us an identity, just like every other religion out there. Here’s how that came about just days before the 1931 Columbus, Ohio convention, according to A.H. Macmillan.
“…Brother Rutherford told me himself that he woke up one night when he was preparing for that convention and he said, ‘What in the world did I suggest an international convention for when I have no special speech or message for them? Why bring them all here?’ And then he began to think about it, and Isaiah 43 came to his mind. He got up at two o’clock in the morning and wrote in shorthand, at his own desk, an outline of the discourse he was going to give about the Kingdom, the hope of the world, and about the new name. And all that was uttered by him at that time was prepared that night, or that morning at two o’clock. And [there is] no doubt in my mind—not then nor now—that the Lord guided him in that, and that is the name Jehovah wants us to bear and we’re very happy and very glad to have it.” (yb75 p. 151 par. 2)
Be that as it may, the basis for the name is Isa. 43:10 as every Jehovah’s Witness knows. However, that was directed at the Israelites. Why was he adopting a name that predates Christianity? Were Christians in the first century known by that name? The Bible says they were referred to as “the Way” and as “Christians”, though it appears that the latter was given them by divine providence. (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 11:26) Was our name also given by divine providence as brother MacMillan claims?[i] If so, why weren’t first century Christians known by it. In fact, why didn’t we go with a name for which there might be a basis in the Christian era.
(Acts 1:8) “. . .but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth.”
It might be argued that if we need a unique name, we can call ourselves Jesus’ Witnesses based on Acts. 1:8. I’m not advocating that for a moment, but simply showing that our basis for calling ourselves Jehovah’s Witnesses is simply not to be found in the Christian Scriptures which are, after all, the basis for the Christianity.
However, there is another problem with the name. It focuses all our attention on witnessing. The premise is that we are bearing witness to the righteousness of Jehovah’s rulership by our conduct and our way of living. By these things we demonstrate that human rule is a failure and divine rulership is the only way to go. Moreover, we refer to our preaching work as the “witnessing work”. This witness work is done from door to door. Therefore, if we don’t “witness” in the field service we are not real “witnesses”.
Here is where this thinking leads.
If a publisher fails to report his or her time for six consecutive months, he (or she) will be deemed "inactive". At that point, the publisher’s name is to be removed from the congregation listing of Service Groups, which is posted on the announcement board at the hall. Ostensibly, the purpose of this list is to organize the witnessing work into manageable group sizes. In practice, it has become the official congregation membership list. If you doubt that, just watch what happens is someone’s name is removed from it. I have personally seen how very upset a publisher gets when they find that their name isn’t on the list.
The fact is, the list is used when the C.O. comes and questions the elders on their shepherding activity. The elders assigned to each group are expected to pay special attention to those in their group for purposes of shepherding. In large congregations where it is hard to keep track of everyone, this arrangement helps the elders—if they are truly doing their jobs—to monitor a smaller number of sheep to ensure the spiritual health of all under their care.
If a name is dropped from the list for inactivity in the field service, there is no one charged with watching over the 'lost sheep'. The one needing the most care is removed from sight. This demonstrates that those who do not participate in field service are not considered Jehovah’s Witnesses and are not really in the ark-like organization that ensures their salvation. I know of one sister who wrote in to me explaining how she went to get her Kingdom Ministry for the month and was told that the KMs were only for publishers. This sister was a regular meeting attender though at considerable personal difficulty and was also on the Theocratic Ministry School. All that didn’t matter. She was inactive and therefore a non-member. The unfeeling nature of the application of this ‘theocratic rule’ so upset her that she would have dropped out completely had it not been for the loving concern of one elder who, upon learning of her plight, made private arrangements to get her a KM and put her in his group. In time she was reactivated and is still active, but a sheep was almost driven from the flock because adherence to the rule was more important than an expression of love.
The whole concept of irregular publishers and inactive publishers; in fact, the whole concept of publishers has no foundation in scripture. Yet, it has become the basis for membership in the congregation, and therefore, the basis for our salvation and for attaining to everlasting life.
The fiction that the Field Service Report each of us is expected to hand in monthly is needed for the Governing Body to plan the worldwide work and the production of literature hides the real truth. Put simply, it is a control mechanism; a way of tracking who is active and how is falling behind. It is also a source of considerable stress-inducing guilt. If one’s hours fall below the congregation average, one is considered weak. If a consistently higher level of hours drops one month due to sickness or family responsibilities, one feels the need to make excuses to the elders. Our service to our God is being measured and monitored by men, and it is to men that we feel an obligation to make excuses. This makes a twisted sense, because our salvation depends on staying in the Organization, and that depends on pleasing men.
Where is the scriptural basis for any of this?
I remember many years ago at the elders meeting during the visit of the circuit overseer, he brought it to my attention that my wife was irregular, having not handed in her report for the previous month. There were a number of irregulars because we were not big on report collecting. If they missed one month, they handed in two reports the next. No big deal. But it was a big deal for the C.O. I assured him that my wife had been out, but he wouldn’t count her on his report. Not without an actual written report from her.
We obsess about these things to such an extent that brothers and sisters feel that if they do not accurately report their time, they are lying to God—as if Jehovah cares one iota for a report card.
I would love to see what would happen if a congregation full of zealous publishers decided to hand in their reports without affixing any names. The Society would still have all the information it supposedly needs, but there would be no way of updating the publisher record cards for anyone. I'm sure this simple act would be seen as rebellion. My guess is the circuit overseer would be dispatched to assess the congregation. A talk would be given, supposed ring leaders would be rounded up and questioned. It would get very messy. And remember, the sin in question is simply not putting one's name on a piece of paper. It isn't even a desire for anonymity, because our witnessing is public and the elders know who goes out because they go out with us.
As each of us looks back on our personal experience in the organization, it is clear that nothing in this control mechanism generates an atmosphere of Christian freedom and love. In fact, if we want to find a counterpart to it in other religions, we have to look at cults. This policy started with Rutherford and by continuing to perpetuate it, we degrade ourselves and dishonor the God we claim to serve.
[i] Rutherford didn’t believe that the helper, the holy spirit, was in use anymore after 1918. Angels were now used to communicate Jehovah’s direction. Given this, one can only wonder at the source of his dream.
Archived Comments
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Comment by imjustasking on 2013-11-22 17:47:19
Hi Meleti another great article. Thank you for your insights. I would like to point out the use of Isaiah 43:10 as a basis for our name has no grounds. If you read the context of that scripture (the entire chapter) you will see that Jehovah was chastising the nation, not giving them a name. They should have been His 'witnesses' to demonstrate to other the other nations the grandeur of his Name and purpose. Instead they failed miserably. They were useless witnesses.
Isa 43:22 "But you have not called even me, O Jacob, because you have grown weary of me, O Israel.
Isa 43:23 You have not brought me the sheep of your whole burnt offerings, and with your sacrifices you have not glorified me. I have not compelled you to serve me with a gift, nor have I made you weary with frankincense.
Isa 43:24 For me you have bought no [sweet] cane with any money; and with the fat of your sacrifices you have not saturated me. In reality you have compelled me to serve because of your sins; you have made me weary with your errors.
Isa 43:27 Your own father, the first one, has sinned, and your own spokesmen have transgressed against me.
Isa 43:28 So I shall profane the princes of the holy place, and I will give Jacob over as a man devoted to destruction and Israel over to words of abuse.
Indeed, Jehovah was not honouring them, but calling them to book for being such poor servants!!
Comment by smolderingwick1 on 2013-11-22 17:50:44
Rutherford's inspired dreams were visions he no doubt had that were not unlike that of Constantine who in 312 C.E. saw a cross superimposed on the sun along with the motto in Latin “in hoc vince” (by this conquer).
Whatever happened to he great truisms: “Religion Is a Snare and a Racket!” and “Serve God and Christ the King!”
Comment by kev c on 2013-11-22 18:02:42
Oh dont get me started on reports meleti. Never have seen why a christian should divulge what he has given always have felt its beetween the individual and god. Matthew 6. V 1 to 4. That principle may just apply. As for the report itself your right it has no scriptural backing. Ive seen a few attempts to connect scripture with it. Acts 2 v41 being one. The same day there were added about three thousand souls. And our brother then said doesnt that show the importance of accurate reporting. Gideon and his 300 men was another one. The other thing ive seen these reports come out so many times and used as a yardstick. To prove when someone qualifies as an elder down to does someone qualify to hold a microphone. I used to think why dont we just stick to 1 timothy 3. And titus 1. I used to say things i bet the apostle paul didnt have to put one of these in. Your right they get upset if you dont put one in. I was called an irregular elder by one C 0. And he wrote to the society about me. What he didnt realise that was it was a complete misunderstanding the brothers had made a mistake and i didnt want to drop them in it. Lol. I had been out faithfully every week i loved the ministry. I just stopped taking the reports seriously in the end though from what ive seen they cause more problems than they solve. I suppose its always the same with man made rules. Kev
Reply by hezekiah1 on 2013-11-26 15:41:56
Thanks Meleti, great article.
I know Kev C, this particular point drives me crazy. The secretary in my congregation is like the report Nazi. He even has competitions to see which group overseer gets his reports done first. Does any of this bring glory to Jehovah?
I have seriously considered continuing to go in service, yet not hand in a report. You can see that I am in service, but you wont know exactly how many hours I go. I know that if I were to do this, it would cause a great deal of difficulty for me. How sad we cannot worship Jehovah in peace.Reply by GodsWordsTruth on 2013-12-03 08:50:28
I wonder if you respectfully declined to turn in a Field Service Report citing perhaps personal beliefs that Jehovah not measuring our service by this report . What if you stated that you want the hours that you contribute in the ministry to the have the same anonymity as the money you contribute to the worldwide work. I am curious …. Would you be counseled ?
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-12-03 16:07:23
I'm sure you would, but it sounds like a good tactic.
Comment by anderestimme on 2013-11-22 19:09:33
Well, I've had some inspired moments of midnight creativity over the years, and I'm pretty sure the supernatural had nothing to do with it. Seems to me that Rutherford was quirky enough that the demons were probably better off leaving him alone.
Reply by apollos0fAlexandria on 2013-11-22 19:51:58
Probably true of Joseph Smith also.
In fact, humans in general can be pretty quirky. There will always be one to screw things up at the right moment in history. The demons have probably just been supping martinis on a beach in Hades for the last few millenniums, occasionally receiving humorous reports about those quirky humans. :)
I know you can take me pulling your leg a little bit anderestimme ... I hope ...Reply by anderestimme on 2013-11-23 23:05:03
Ok, you got me with Joseph Smith. Salamanders, Moronis, golden disks, Egyptian texts - if he came up with all that with no outside help, he makes Rutherford look like a patsy.
Wasn't 'Sipping Martinis on a Beach in Hades' the title of Rutherford's unpublished posthumous autobiography? Or was it Warren Zevon's....
Reply by Chris on 2013-11-23 02:16:39
Ain't that the truth.
I doubt very much that Rutherford woke up under inspiration.
He was probably still awake sipping bourbons, or he woke up with the dry horrors and sat down at his desk to quench his thirst and write a few words of his wisdom.
I can just picture him going "einie menie minie mo" and opening his Bible at Isaiah.
Its a shame he didn't land his finger on Isa. 5:11 ;)
Comment by A searcher for truth on 2013-11-22 23:31:12
Actually there is more evidence in the Greek scriptures (New Testament) for Christians to be witnesses of him than being witnesses for Jehovah.
Apart from the scripture in Acts that you have quoted, there is three more that I know of in the book of Revelation and I will quote them here.
(1) Revelation 1
1 ¶ A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show to His slaves things which must occur quickly. And He signified by sending through His angel to His slave, John,
2 who testified of the Word of God and the witness of Jesus Christ, even as many things as he saw.
Here John is a "witness of Jesus" in this case, which he was when he was with Jesus here on Earth.
Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ. [LITV] In the NWT it actually says "bearing witness to Jesus".
(2) 9 And he says to me, Write: Blessed are the ones having been called to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb. And he says to me, These Words of God are true.
10 And I fell before his feet to worship him, but he said to me, Behold! Stop! I am a fellow-slave of yours, and of your brothers, having the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Again in the NWT, it says this :"who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying."
This one in Philippians 1 indicates that Christians belong to Jesus Christ.
1 ¶ Paul, and Timothy, slaves of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and ministers:----.
It is very clear to me that while the prophets of the (Hebrew scriptures) Old Testament writings were focused on testifying to Jehovah God, and were witnesses of him, Christians however are to be witnesses of Jesus, and the scriptures do clearly show this to be the case.
This is how I see it anyway.Reply by A searcher for truth on 2013-11-22 23:33:52
The last scripture that I quoted from Revelation was taken from chapter 19.
I forgot to quote the chapter, sorry about that.
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-23 09:22:08
Thanks for adding in that line of reasoning. It seals the case for me that we are witnesses of Jesus which means that through him we bear witness to the Father. This is what Christians are supposed to do. As for a name, Christian will do nicely as it encompasses all we do and all we are.
Reply by kev c on 2013-11-25 06:28:21
Yes without a doubt we are witnesses of jesus in my final talk at the hall i gave it the brothers straight from the platform when was the last time we even mentioned jesus while on the minstry ? The trouble is that the service meeting parts and thier suggestions for the minstry dont seem to include jesus nearly enough. Hes all me and my son would preach about in the end. And i remember he got counselled by one brother for not following the societies suggestions. What can you do. They seem to have veered of big time. Ive become convinced the veil of 2 corinthians chapters 3 and 4 is in place. Kev
Comment by A searcher for truth on 2013-11-23 00:14:31
I had made a post on this site in response to this subject why was it not posted?
Was it not acceptable?
Comment by A searcher for truth on 2013-11-23 00:16:18
Never mind for some reason it is back there again, maybe it is something to do with scripting or something.
Comment by gogetter60 on 2013-11-23 19:41:12
I notice that some have made mention of the non-scriptural based requirement of reporting time and its purpose in the organization.
The entire 40 yrs. as an active witness I have never agreed with this and felt it was just a control mechanism used by the org.
When serving as an elder and yes a pioneer, I refused to give parts that focused on the need for the publishers to increase their time and at least reach the national average.This of course disturbed the body and I was counseled to be loyal to the theocratic arrangement.
On the other hand the reporting of time was a useful tool to spot those who may be faltering spiritually by the elders as FS time is the main focus of every witness and the primary way in which to display our love for Jehovah and maintain our standing in the congregation according to the GB.
The time goals for pioneers that are held in high esteem and a goal that is by GB/FDS standards the ultimate expression of one's love for Jehovah is of course totally not based on scripture and has plagued many in the congregation.
The reality is that this has set up a sort of caste system in the congregation and have caused many to feel unworthy of Jesus approval and Jehovah's love.
I remember a talk given by a very "old School" CO who stated that "if you think you are going to coast into the new system with 10 hrs. of service per month you are in for a surprise."
This put my wife into tears and to her credit she confronted the CO about the statement and he apologized.
I just can't conceive an image of our Creator engaged with his Son in some sort of time counting scenario to determine whom of his servants really love them based on some arbitrary number.
This of course is just another man made cruel religious rule that has no place with true Christianity..Reply by hezekiah1 on 2013-11-26 16:11:51
Very true gogetter. I was on a shepherding call recently where a pioneer disclosed that they were under a great deal of stress to get the required hours. It even caused them health problems. I asked perhaps if this was causing health problems, it would be better to just regular auxiliary pioneer. They rejected the idea. Why? It was because the friends of the pioneer looked down on regular publishers with great disdain. He was afraid that if he didn't have the status of pioneer he would lose all of his friends. While I didn't offer a comment at the time, my family member at the branch office has often said the same thing.
We have a caste system, pure and simple....
Comment by Vassy on 2013-11-25 08:15:57
I was wondering what would happen if no witnessing report were required AT ALL! That would REALLY prove what is the stimulus behind going from door to door: love for God or fear of men (fear of appearing a weak spiritual brother/sister)
Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-25 14:37:14
I believe that you get accused of "phantom witnessing" when the majority of your time is informal witnessing. Several Pioneers that I know (in different congregations and circuits) were approached by the Elders (or gossiped about by others in the congregation unfortunately) when the hours that they report don't "match up" with how often they are seen out in the Field Ministry. These pioneers informal witnessed mostly, but they were still counseled to be "more visible" to the congregation. One of those Pioneers came off the list, the others adjusted their work schedules (some quit their jobs) in order to accommodate this request. I know of a sister right now who is caring for her sick father and is very discouraged that she is not meeting her hours. You would think that her sacrificing her job by going into early retirement and living a very simple life “for Jehovah" would give her comfort. Yet she still feels like she is not doing enough. I have been there. I battled with feelings of discouragement during my years of regular pioneering. The watchtower this week is about how Pioneering strengthens our Relationship with God. I believe that I learned a great deal from my years in pioneering, but for the most part I was stressed out about my time. I am trying not to be cynical but just the title of this Watchtower implies that your relationship is not a strong as it could be because you are not pioneering.
Reply by kev c on 2013-11-25 18:17:45
We had a few pioneers in our congregation like that didnt very often see them out on the work. I dont think i ever got to even work with them. I dont really know how they were getting the hours. But one thing i do know if they did have to fabricate the hours to keep up appearances then its a really sad indictment against the whole arrangement. Again where is the scriptural precedent for performing x amount of hours in a given time period. It seems more like a career in a big. Multi national company. With a big boss on your case if your not performing very well. In reality were all volunteers and should do as much as our circumstances allow. Scriptural points i think of are these. Galatians 6 do not compare ourselves with others. Luke 21 the widows mite. Ephesians 4 he gave some as evangelizers. And i think its unfair and demoralising to apply scriptures which applied to the efforts of the apostle paul and timothy to every member of the congregation. I do think if we have something good and upbuilding its natural to want to talk about it with others. A good man brings forth good treasures out of his heart. This should be a natural occurance and not something forced and we should never feel under pressure or feel resentment because god loves a cheerful giver. The other thing i really dont know what it has to do with others and why should any be judged or condemned for not doing enough when its their own personal buisness and have done what they could. Kev
Reply by Chris on 2013-11-26 01:38:13
As we have all come to realize, counting hours is just another way the WTS has moved away from promoting and nurturing genuine Christian freedom to its own system of righteousness based on laws and dictates of men.
They have truly become blind guides.
Jesus could be standing in front of them with a 10,000 watt flood lamp of Biblical truths and they couldn't see him if they tried.
Sad really.Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-26 10:24:04
They probably wouldn’t be able to see it . How would they if they are closing their minds and they expect Jesus to fit within their timetables and declarations of prophecy .
As a side note , the obsession with recycling old prophecies mainly from the old testament and passing them off as new light is redundant, odd, and very annoying. Words like “antitypical” “greater fulfillment” “great significance to our day “and alleging that we are modern day ( insert here Johnadabs, Dukes, Gideonites, etc.) is overreaching . I wish they could show me just one valid example from the bible where one prophecy was fulfilled twice in two different ways . From my reading in the bible ,the inspired prophecy was uttered , warnings / signs of fulfillment were given, and then they were fulfilled. There were no sequels .
They should take a cue from the Apostles and focus on the Christ.
Reply by hezekiah1 on 2013-11-26 16:15:14
Hello Kev, we are in a big multinational corporation. Complete with a logo and mission statement. Hours in field service are the currency and new publishers are our profit.
Reply by kev c on 2013-11-26 17:27:09
Yes hezekiah we are and theres also managers that will fire us if we dont do exactly as we are told.
Reply by Samaritan Woman on 2013-11-26 22:19:50
I feel like reporting field service creates the opposite effect than the one intended. In the scriptures sharing the good news of the Christ with others never made those doing the witnessing feel incompetent or doubt that they had said or did enough. Rather it spurred them to even more action and like Jeremiah it became a fire in their bones and inspired them to speak and act with boldness.
When any society or organization uses outward actions to measure inward faith it dooms those beholden to them to emptiness. It gives to men what belongs to God... our time. Look at the words we use to describe field service, " counting time" "getting my hours" and "getting my time in". Does it strike anyone else as odd that they sound like terms a prisoner would use?
Field service has been a struggle for me of late because I find that the fire in my bones does not match the desert that the religion of my youth has become and while I am closer to God and have a better appreciation for Jesus I am viewed as a "spiritually weak" person.
The quote that started my journey was so random that I do not even remember how I found it but it led me to really study the bible. The Watchtower, April 1, 1920 p100-101 " We would not refuse to treat one as a brother because he did not believe the Society is the Lords channel . If others see it in a different way, that is their privilege. There should be full liberty of conscience" Soon I privately realized that was not the case anymore.
So yes membership means that you are accepted, you keep your family and the friends you have shared so much with and as long as you do not think about it, the warm-fuzzy feeling that you and your worship are acceptable to God. More and more often the price of membership has become too high for men and worth too little to God.Reply by Samaritan Woman on 2013-11-26 22:39:31
*to high for me
Reply by GodsWordsTruth on 2013-11-27 16:14:50
Great thoughts!
Comment by BeenMislead on 2013-11-26 10:19:04
Yes, I feel like the organization wields a harsh spiritual whip!
Do more, do more, you’re not doing enough!!
This is what I have experienced ... I see your hours are low, you must not be studying enough, you must not be praying enough, you must be spiritually weak. (In other words, there must be something wrong with you, you need to do more, you’re not doing enough!) This is motivation by guilt which never works, and if it does work it’s not lasting.
You never get ... Thank you so much for what you are doing in the field ministry, I know Jehovah really appreciates it.
If you give this kind of loving exhortation and just leave it at that, don’t add a but to it, then the person is going to be motivated (by love not guilt) to keep on doing what they can. And will be motivated all on their own to do more if at all possible.
Most elders I have had dealings with don’t have a clue how to be a loving Shepard. They seem to be trained to motivate by guilt and fear.
Comment by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-26 10:43:57
That is because they are taught to look at metrics to measure spiritual health. Meeting attendance, FS reports, how many pioneers, elders MS they have .Oh don’t forget how many aux pioneer slips they have for the month. They look at those numbers and then focus the stragglers in the local needs parts. Recently at our CO assemblies our CO reads off the top two congregations who are excelling in meeting attendance. My congregation is one of those. Thunderous applause usually follows. Then in local field service groups we whispering about what the other numbers for the other congregations might be. The pressure is on.
Reply by anderestimme on 2013-11-26 13:29:55
I can honestly say I have never heard a local needs part on 'stranglers'. A congregation with that problem would definitely have negative growth, which would probably be the topic of the following month's local needs part.
Reply by Chris on 2013-11-26 14:37:44
They are usually dealt with quietly by the elders. I am sure I recall something about it in the elders manual.
Ahh yes here it is " .....if there is a known or suspected strangler in the congregation then please phone the WTS legal department for direction" Also " before accusing someone of strangling it is best to ask the deceased how they came to have hand marks around their neck, if they choose not to answer then the matter cannot be confirmed, nonetheless it would be prudent to ask the accused strangler to keep his hands in his pockets for a period of time"Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2013-11-26 15:22:27
Sorry guys it was a typo :) I meant “stragglers” (spell check) . It was a term that an older pioneer sister in my congregation would use when referring to those who are considered falling by the wayside. The local needs parts at our Hall are usually field service driven .Encouraging people to meet the national average, turning reports in on time etc. Most recently on how to avoid being considered inactive (“ask yourselves…. Can I give Jehovah at least one hour a month in the preaching and teaching work”?)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-26 15:26:42
As my act of mercy for the day, I've corrected the type, though it gave us all some good laughs. We all knew what you meant, and may I say all your comments are spot on.
Reply by GodsWordsTruth on 2013-11-27 13:59:02
Thank you very much Meleti :) :)
Reply by Samaritan Woman on 2013-11-26 22:23:59
The two day assembly for 2014 has a talk devoted entirely to pioneering and my skin began to seriously crawl at the intimation that it is the only way to be acceptable. It is like some forgot the " un" in " underserved kindness."
Comment by Russell Fugitive on 2013-11-26 18:44:06
Hi Meleti, :)
I am "Fugitive1."
I was raised in a Jehovah's Witness family all my life. But, I never got baptized. However I'm pretty familiar with their doctrines and teachings. Also after becoming an adult, I'm learning many things off the net, as I like to surf and visit religious sites. Especially those that deal with Jehovah's Witnesses and what's happening among them of late.
I have a question that I have been talking with my friends and relatives about, but no one seems to be able to answer it for me. Some even say I'm trying to "trick" them, with this question. In other words, my question is "trickery," some say. But it is not a "trick" question on my part. I simply want to know the answer to it. And I don't really think this is a very difficult question either, for someone who really knows the bible, like I once thought Jehovah's Witnesses did.
My question is this:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 tells us,
"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah's Word, that WE THE LIVING who survive to the PRESENCE [or Parousia] of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:15
Was not Paul including himself when he said "WE THE LIVING" as being a person in the first century along with the Thessalonian Congregation, who fully expected TO BE ALIVE when Jesus made his promised "presence," "return," "coming" or "parousia"?
In other words, doesn't this verse actually mean, Paul and first century Christians, fully expected TO BE ALIVE when Jesus made his promised "parousia" to take them to heaven?
Any comments you or anyone else wish to add in answering the above question, would be much appreciated. :)
Fugitive1Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-26 23:49:25
Hi Fugitive1,
Good question. I can't say for sure, but while Paul wrote under inspiration, he would only write about what God revealed to him and the times and the seasons of the coming of the kingdom were things Jehovah reserved for himself. (Acts 1:7) Therefore, it must be that Paul was expressing his expectation. He could not know whether he would be alive when the presence began or not. Not knowing enough about the language in which this was written I cannot speak with authority on what flexibility of meaning exists in his wording. The verb rendered "remain" in the KJV is in the present passive tense in Greek. The wording doesn't restrict the fulfillment to those actually alive at that time. It would have to be that way, though, wouldn't it? His words are true, yet he and all his contemporaries are gone and yet the presence hasn't yet arrived.
Perhaps someone else on the site with greater knowledge of Greek can guide us further.
Reply by Jude on 2013-11-27 00:54:44
I can think of two possibilities for Paul's use of "we the living":
1. He said "we THE LIVING" to mean "those alive - like we currently are". He was not using the pronoun "we" to indicate that his immediate first century audience would necessarily be alive for the arrival of Christ's presence as much as he was using "we" to identify with the quality of being alive, which he, his audience, and future Christians who will be alive at Christ's presence, all have in common.
From the context you would notice that his whole point was about whether the living will go to heaven before the dead. He was implicitly asking his audience to imagine what would happen re the timing of the ascension to heaven from the perspective of those alive - which he and his audience were. Hence he used "we".
2. He could also have used "we" to simply mean "Christians like me and you with the hope of going to heaven", without any regard for the particular era in which they lived. Thus he could have been in essence saying "People like me and you - WE Christians with the heavenly hope - who are alive at the presence". In other words, he may not have been directly connecting the word "we" with the timing of the presence but only the identity of being a christian with the heavenly hope.
Just my thoughts anyway.Reply by Jude on 2013-11-27 01:10:22
Let me give you an example to illustrate my point. An African American might say to an audience of other African Americans: "We came to this country centuries ago". His use of "We" does not mean that he and his immediate audience were actually literally alive centuries ago and journeyed to America from Africa. The pronoun "We" as used in his statement links only to the quality of being of African descent. Likewise, looking forward to the future he might say something like "We will land on Mars". Again, the "we" as used here does not mean that the speaker is saying himself and his immediate audience would actually literally land on Mars or even be alive to see it. He is using "we" to mean "African Americans".
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-27 08:30:54
Nicely put, Jude. Thanks.
Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2013-11-27 01:29:05
Hello Fugitive1, and this was a major contention with me too, perhaps more so because I was attempting to interpret Hebrew with Greek thought and culture. Recently, I've been studying Hebrew (of which the epistle writers were, exclusively) and came to a conclusion....first, that we weren't really meant to know. Not yet anyway. For one thing, we haven't fully entered the fulfillment of Paul's words yet.
What I mean to say is that Greek language and culture (as well as the entire Greco-Roman way of thinking) is linear, i.e., its time/space equation doesn't relate to Hebraic language and culture (which just so happens to be the language and culture communicated to humanity from the beginning). To clarify, Hebrew thinking and culture was dynamic and followed the processes of nature. Simply put, Hebrew was concrete and cyclical whereas Greek is abstract and linear, which is why Hebrews weren't particularly scholarly in matters of science whereas Greeks became the infinite philosophers who spent their entire lives in the Areopagus arguing linear abstracts.
Paul was describing prophetically what was to be understood Hebraically, in other words, it was never meant to be understood in a linear measurement of time, which is why, no matter how dogmatically we attempt to interpret spiritual thought, Greek thought was never meant to know it from beginning to end.
That's my take anyway, but better to ask God that question, I think. Better still, if we align our lives in such a way that we don't pretend to know what we were never meant to know, we might not even need the answer???.
sw
Reply by kev c on 2013-11-27 05:52:12
Dear fugitive 1 thessalonians 4 -s the section of scripture that i am studying and discussing this week. Looking at the context it seems that the reason why paul wrote these words was that the congregation seemed to be grieving about those among them who had died perhaps feeling that they had missed out on the glory of being with Jesus. Paul was assuring them that this would not be the case because just as Jesus died and rose again so would they but only at his presence or coming. He then went on to express the doctrine. We the living who are alive and remain until the presence of the lord will by know means precede those who have fallen asleep in death. he went on to say that the dead will rise first notice also that this doctrine was not one that originated with Paul but with Jesus himself for it was a word from the lord. The scriptures seem to show that not even Jesus knew the time of his return, let alone Paul. Therefore although as you say it's quite possible that Paul may have expected to be among the living at Christ's presence as indeed many have had the same feelings today, taking the picture has a whole and considering other scriptures where he spoke of his imminent death, it could be more likely considering it was a word from the lord he was expressing; a doctrine. And when said we who survive and remain was speaking for the group of Christians alive at that time. Rather like we use the word WE sometimes in English. Let's say as a supporter of a sports team, we won this game or that game, when it's others who are on the field at the time. Or even a citizen of a country who says we own a particular island. Hope this helps. Kev
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-27 09:44:27
Hi Fugitive 1,
Since you were never baptized, it begs the question, do you consider yourself a Christian? If not, would you like to become one?Reply by Russell Fugitive on 2013-11-27 15:38:15
Yes Meleti, I would. I want to get baptized as a true disciple of Jesus, like so many others have done, especially since I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and come from a very strong religious background. But before I commit myself to any one specific religion, Jehovah's Witnesses or who ever, I'd like to be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, or at least to a reasonable degree, that these people have the truth, the real truth about the bible. Like John 8:32 and John 17:17 says. (I know some of you feel that no religion on earth presently, or no one person has that today. Still that's how I'd like to feel about things before I join, adopt or become a part of any specific religious persuasion. But, maybe that religion I'm looking for, doesn't exist today. If so, then I'm prepared to accept that fact too.)
But one thing is for sure, I don't want anyone telling me exactly what I can or cannot read on the net. Nor, do I want anyone telling me, I can't read "apostate" literature, like the Watchtower tells the Jehovah's Witnesses. I've had enough of that kind of talk. I'm open to all points of view, at this stage of the game.
But honestly, I don't believe you guys would try to pull that one on me. :D
Many thanks for your comments. :)
Fugitive1Reply by Chris on 2013-11-27 18:48:27
Hi Fugitive,
Religion is a funny term. While I know what you mean, and it is often the only way to express it, religion is a product of men.
The Jews started out being God's people and as such theirs was the truest expression of faith possible at that time.
Essentially there was no Jewish religion, but it could be said that the nations around them were false religions.
As Christians we do not belong to a religion or creed but to Christ.
It may seem pedantic but it will help you to see through the works of men and build your relationship with Him and his Father.
Ultimately this is will result in the completion of the freedom that Adam rejected, because instead of tying us to men and organizations Christian freedom will eventually bring us back to a direct relationship with our Creator.
I know from my years as a JW I was insulated from a relationship with Christ, and when I started to realize that Jesus' expression " Come to me for I am kindly and my load is light" (Matt. 11:28-30) has a real depth of meaning that is quite moving and personal, I started to see things a-lot clearer.
Once we make that connection then we are not bound by men, we don't want to serve anyone else, and why would we (1 John 2:1-17)
I am sure we all wish you well in your search :)
Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-11-27 23:47:52
I have come to believe that any form of organized religion--which means religion organized by men--will fall short of the Christian standard.
Comment by Russell Fugitive on 2013-11-27 19:01:24
Hi all,
This post is addressed to anyone who wants to comment on it. Many thanks for the comments already received so far on this topic. I appreciate it. :)
As I mentioned earlier in one of my previous posts, I like to surf the net and try to read almost anything I can, about differing viewpoints on the bible. In doing so, I have become somewhat familiar with the views of the Preterists. They have a strong following over at Paltalk, in case some of you have been over there and noticed that. They believe everything was fulfilled in the first century, including the the book of Revelation. Of course, I don't believe that. But, I did think they made a few points of note though.
One such point is the curious bible text covering Luke 19:12-27. This is the one about the "minas" that Jesus gave out to his disciples if you remember.
In the illustration, there is a "man of noble birth" who traveled to a distant land to "secure kingly power for himself." This sure sounds a lot like Jesus going to heaven. That's easy to follow. (vs. 12) The "slaves" he summoned before him to give them "minas" to "do business" with, were I believe, his disciples of the first century. The ones directly taught by Jesus, in whom Jesus gave the actual "minas" to. (vs. 13) This is my opinion. Of course this means, these ones would have to have an accounting with Jesus, BEFORE THEY DIED ON EARTH. In this way, I could possibly reason this particular judgment that they faced would occur, IN THEIR LIFETIME, or within one "generation," as Jesus had already said. (See Matt. 24:34) This would thus mean, they would BE ALIVE, to face the judgment from Jesus, at this day of reckoning for what they had done with the "minas" he gave them. Jesus would do this, at his return or at his "invisible parousia."
Also I could reason, the "citizens" who "hated him" and "did not want him to become king," would be the Jewish nation, who rejected Jesus. Jesus said for their disobedience, they would be eventually "slaughtered" or "executed" before him, in fact upon his return he said. (vs. 14, 27) I favor the viewpoint, as some today have, that this "slaughter" or "execution" occurred in the first century, in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Army under General Titus. History tells us, over 1,100,000 were killed & slaughtered at that time.
So my question would be, why couldn't Jesus have returned back in 70 AD, and carried out everything he mentioned in this illustration, and rewarded his faithful "slaves" with heavenly life at that time?
In other words, why couldn't Jesus have had his "invisible parousia" or return back then, in 70 AD?
This is a question that I am faced with, every time I read that particular bible passage. The whole thing seems to fit and make sense, if I looked at it that way.
Fugitive1
2013 New World Translation's rendering of Luke 19:12-27 found here:
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/42/19
Luke 19:12 So he said: “A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land+ to secure kingly power for himself and to return. 13 Calling ten of his slaves, he gave them ten mi′nas* and told them, ‘Do business with these until I come.’+ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent out a body of ambassadors after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to become king over us.’
15 “When he eventually got back after having secured the kingly power,* he summoned the slaves to whom he had given the money,* in order to ascertain what they had gained by their business activity.+ 16 So the first one came forward and said, ‘Lord, your mi′na gained ten mi′nas.’+ 17 He said to him, ‘Well done, good slave! Because in a very small matter you have proved yourself faithful, hold authority over ten cities.’+ 18 Now the second came, saying, ‘Your mi′na, Lord, made five mi′nas.’+ 19 He said to this one as well, ‘You too be in charge of five cities.’ 20 But another one came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mi′na that I kept hidden away in a cloth. 21 You see, I was in fear of you, because you are a harsh man; you take what you did not deposit, and you reap what you did not sow.’+ 22 He said to him, ‘By your own words I judge you, wicked slave. You knew, did you, that I am a harsh man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow?+ 23 So why did you not put my money* in a bank? Then on my coming, I would have collected it with interest.’
24 “With that he said to those standing by, ‘Take the mi′na from him and give it to the one who has the ten mi′nas.’+ 25 But they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten mi′nas!’— 26 ‘I say to you, to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.+ 27 Moreover, bring these enemies of mine here who did not want me to become king over them and execute them in front of me.’”Reply by Russell Fugitive on 2013-12-02 22:51:23
Matthew 24:34 tells us:
"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."
In verse 3 of this chapter, Jesus was asked:
"...Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [parousia] and of the conclusion of the system of things?"
From verse 3 all the way up to verse 33, Jesus tells us many things that were to happen. However, according to verse 34, all of these things were to happen WITHIN ONE GENERATION. Which means, Jesus' invisible "parousia" [if one believes such a thing] was thus limited to ONE GENERATION.
In other words, the invisible parousia of Jesus, was limited to "one generation," according to Matthew 24:34, Jesus' own words.
These are the views of "Preterists" I know. I don't believe "Christians" of our time have all of the answers. But neither do the preterists. I disagree with the preterists in their belief that the book of Revelation and events thereof are to be included in a first century fulfillment. I don't believe that could be possible.
But, I have read some interesting findings, on how we can better understand the book of Revelation, in case anyone is interested. :)
Fugitive1
Comment by BeenMislead on 2013-12-11 09:51:41
Meleti ,
Could you give us the source of the quote from A.H. Macmillan about Rutherford's dream to adopt the name Jehovah's Witnesses?
Thanks!
BeenMislead.Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2013-12-12 07:50:24
Yearbook of 1975, p. 151 par. 2
I've amended the post to include the missing reference.Reply by BeenMislead on 2013-12-13 08:38:57
Thanks!
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Comment by ironsharpensiron on 2022-12-15 05:26:26
I would love to see what would happen if a congregation full of zealous publishers decided to hand in their reports without affixing any names. The Society would still have all the information it supposedly needs, but there would be no way of updating the publisher record cards for anyone. I’m sure this simple act would be seen as rebellion. My guess is the circuit overseer would be dispatched to assess the congregation. A talk would be given, supposed ring leaders would be rounded up and questioned. It would get very messy. And remember, the sin in question is simply not putting one’s name on a piece of paper.
My Local Congregation went paperless shortly after the Covid 19 Outbreak and are now using an online system. It’s probably a congregation wide thing now.