[This is a review of highlights from this week’s Watchtower study. Please feel free to share your own insights using the Comments feature of the Beroean Pickets Forum.]
As I read this week’s study article, I couldn’t shake a growing sense of irony. Perhaps you will notice it as well.
Par. 1-3: Summary – We must not be taken in by lies and misleading statements from the media and internet about Jehovah’s Witnesses. To counteract this tactic, we will consider what happened to those in Thessalonica and remember Paul’s counsel to them to not be quickly shaken from their reason.
Par. 5: “…some in that congregation [Thessalonica] had become “excited” about Jehovah’s day to the point that they believed that its arrival was then imminent.” So this is the reason that Paul is counseling them not to be ‘quickly shaken from their reason.’ It has nothing to do with misleading statements from outside the congregation, and everything to do with men within their midst leading them astray with false hope. The paragraph asks us to read 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2, so let’s do that now.
(2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
Paul here links the “day of Jehovah”[i] with the presence of Christ. We teach that the “day of Jehovah” is yet future, while the “presence of our Lord Jesus Christ” began a hundred years ago. Obviously, the first century Christians thought the two events were concurrent.[ii] Nevertheless, the Lord’s day did not begin then as they were led to believe. He tells then “not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed” by a spoken message or a letter appearing to be from us. We contend that Paul was a member of the first century governing body, so the “us” could be taken to be that august body.[iii] Therefore his counsel is for them to use their power of reason and not be deceived that the Lord’s day had arrived just because some in authority were saying so. In short, it was up to the individual Christian to figure this out, and not to blindly accept the teachings of another, no matter the source.
The irony of our making this argument will be evident to any long-time member of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Nevertheless, it can’t hurt to refresh our memory.
w68 5/1 p. 272 par. 7 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time
Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these “last days” will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ’s glorious 1,000-year reign.
w69 10/15 pp. 622-623 par. 39 The Approaching Peace of a Thousand Years
More recently earnest researchers of the Holy Bible have made a recheck of its chronology. According to their calculations the six millenniums of mankind’s life on earth would end in the mid-seventies. Thus the seventh millennium from man’s creation by Jehovah God would begin within less than ten years.
In a kind of double irony in light of the current Watchtower study, we again quote Paul’s words to the Thessalonians.
w80 3/15 pp. 17-18 pars. 4-6 Choosing the Best Way of Life
In the first century, for example, the apostle Paul found it necessary to write to Christians in Thessalonica in this fashion, as we read at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: “However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.”
5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led [not, “led us”] to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments [not, “our comments”. It’s as if the book were speaking for itself] as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused [not, we aroused] regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published [not, “we published other statements”] that implied [“Implied!? Really??”] that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted [not, “we regret”] that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated. [not, “that we initiated.”]
6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.
You will notice the extensive use of the passive tense: “there were…”, “It is to be regretted…” and the implication that the error was due to some “persons having to do” with the publications. The organization embodied in its Governing Body takes no direct responsibility for anything that went on.
Besides leaving no doubt about how close the end was prior to 1975, we actually commended people for uprooting their lives to have a greater share in the ministry in the short time left for this system of things.
km 5/74 p. 3 How Are You Using Your Life?
Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.
w76 7/15 p. 441 par. 15 A Solid Basis for Confidence
But it is not advisable for us to set our sights on a certain date, neglecting everyday things we would ordinarily care for as Christians, such as things that we and our families really need. We may be forgetting that, when the “day” comes, it will not change the principle that Christians must at all times take care of all their responsibilities. If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.
The half-hearted correction, made four years after this statement that the “anyone” included “some” responsible for publishing statements that got everyone “excited” that the day of Jehovah was here, didn’t really cut it with the rank and file. This was seen as a shifting of the blame onto those who had put their trust in the leadership of the Organization. We are still being exhorted to put our complete trust in those taking the lead in the Organization.
The “reason” of many brothers and sisters was shaken back then to the point of “selling homes and property” because the “day of Jehovah was here”. This was both spoken (from the convention platform) and written (in our publications).
True, the brothers now giving us this counsel were not personally responsible for this damning historical legacy. Have they learned from the lessons of the past? Back in 1980, they believed they had:
w80 3/15 p. 17 par. 4 Choosing the Best Way of Life
“We learn from our mistakes that it is necessary to be more careful in the future.”
Perhaps that generation had, but this new generation comprising the current Governing Body seems to be starting down the same path as their forbearers. The January 15, 2014 Watchtower provides a means to calculate the approximate length remaining in the last days. We seem to be returning to the 1960s and 1970s when we thought we could use our then-understanding of Matthew 24:34 to calculate the nearness of the end. In line with that thinking, the March Kingdom Ministry suggests the possibility that this might be our last memorial.
In line with the mentality that we know more than the first century Christians, we state in paragraph 5 of our study: “Those early Christians had only a limited understanding of the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose, even as Paul later acknowledged regarding prophecy: “We have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.”” Are we to infer from this that present-day Christians do not have a limited understanding of the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose? Are we being led to believe that we now have “that which is complete”? This would be quite an inference based on our modern-day history of failed prophetic interpretations. (Perhaps some of our readers could find references to either confirm or deny this inference.)
Par. 6: “To set matters straight, Paul under inspiration explained that a great apostasy and “the man of lawlessness” were to appear before Jehovah’s day.” The judgment upon the “man of lawlessness” is brought because “they did not accept the love of the truth”. After making this statement, the paragraph asks us if we love truth. Of course we do! This is to be commended, for sure. However, how do we demonstrate our love of truth? The paragraph continues: “’Do I keep up-to-date with our present understanding as set out in the pages of this magazine and other Bible-based publications provided from the worldwide congregation of God’s people?’” So our love of truth is demonstrated by our unquestioning acceptance of every teaching handed down from the Governing Body through our publications.
The footnote to the paragraph states:
As we read at Acts 20:29, 30, Paul pointed out that from within the Christian congregations, “men [would] rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” History confirms that in time a clergy/laity distinction developed. By the third century C.E., “the man of lawlessness” was manifest, recognizable in the composite group of the clergy of Christendom.—See The Watchtower, February 1, 1990, pages 10-14.
It would be wise for us at this point to review what Paul tells the Thessalonians about the man of lawlessness.
“Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4)
So the man of lawlessness is known by the following characteristics.
1) He doesn’t love truth.
This doesn’t mean that teaching falsehood makes one the man of lawlessness. It is the lack of love of truth that defines him. A true Christian can be in error, but when shown the truth he will adopt it and reject the lie. A false Christian—a man of lawlessness—will hold on to the lie even in the face of overwhelming Scriptural evidence to the contrary.
2) He speaks twisted things.
The man of lawlessness twists the meaning of Scripture to suit his purposes. When found out, he shifts the blame to others, but does not take responsibility himself.
3) He lords it over others.
The clergy/laity distinction is evidence of this. The man of lawlessness sets himself up over others. He creates a two-class system so that while claiming all Christians are equal, it becomes evident that some are more equal than others.
4) He sits in the seat of God.
By claiming to speak for God, he allows no others to challenge his word, for to do so is to challenge God. Those under him must accept whatever he says as truth. All who would object or who would point out his error are persecuted, forced into silence by the power and authority he wields.
It is easy for us to point at the Catholic Church and others of her ilk and say that they meet all of these identifying marks. The question is, do we also, even to some degree, fit the bill? Jehovah is the judge. For us as individuals, the identification of the “man of lawlessness” is crucial only so that we can avoid getting seduced by him, led astray, and lose our reason.
There is much more in this week’s study, but I’ll leave it here and look forward to the comments that others will contribute to the discussion.
Hi ‘imjustasking,’ it seems that the teaching of truth happens not so much as a result of what is logically written – whether in Scripture or in its interpretation – but by the corroborating evidence of the Spirit in the heart of the willing and honest individual; otherwise the Christian world would already be a much better place. Hence, any attempt at making people see that which they already claim to see, will only serve to hide the truth more effectively in plain sight. No matter how well and logically the truth of a matter is presented, people will select… Read more »
Hi Ross. Amen to what you said. GodsWordIsTruth hit the nail on the head. Lets have a format for these discussions that allows the debate to be STRUCTURED. I gave one suggestion, but others may suggest a better alternative. If we can have a debate that is more structured then I think that will be for the good (1 Cor 14:40) At the end of the day, as you said people will draw conclusions either from an honest open heart or from one that is biased. But for the sake of my own sanity, I would prefer to draw a… Read more »
Hi ‘imjustasking,’ I hear your thought about a perceived need for structural form, but you already provided the answer to that, in your noticing the Holy Spirit being in the midst of those gathering in Christ’s Name, even BEFORE they are in physical communication with one another – should that not obviate our concern about format and framework? The wind blows where it wants to…we just have to tap into it with the right attitude and motive, to behold the glory of God in Christ among us. Truth is a matter of revelation, not consensus building. I am looking forward… Read more »
Hi Ross, no I’m not looking for consensus. Consensus by the majority, tradition or democracy are not substitutes for the guiding of the Holy Spirit. On that I with you. Rather, speaking personally I find that in a discussion some really valid points are made that PROVE a matter or at least act as milestone but are then lost in the ebb and flow of the thread. It is these milestones that I wish to capture for later reference. So for example, lets say that someone can prove logistically and scripturally the time frame for the appearance of the MOL.… Read more »
Are you just proposing that the format of our discussion be organized a little more? If so I definitely agree. If for nothing else it cuts down on continuing /starting arguments on many different posts. It also cuts down on repetition and there’s a central spot where certain subjects are debated at length
Apollos and I are working on setting up a discussion forum as you suggest. Give us a couple of weeks and it should be up and running
Not sure whether the Feb.15, 2014 Questions from Readers fits the speculations upon which our faith might be “shaken.” It asks—What reasons did Jews in the first century have for being “in expectation” of the Messiah? The last three paragraphs read as follows: “If the apostles and other early Christians had correctly understood the prophecy about the 70 weeks, we would expect them to have mentioned the prophecy as proof that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that he had arrived on time. But there is no evidence that the early Christians did so. “Another point is worth noting. Gospel… Read more »
Sorry, meant to say, “It seems to me that rather than acknowledge THIS error, we bolster it.”
Hi SW, you are spot on. if 1914 goes, then then EVERYTHING else goes. That is why they tenaciously hang onto it. If one tries to tackle the argument in any way, it will fall on deaf ears. It will be a matter of your word against theirs. Your average Joe will ALWAYS take their word. However, I have posted to Meleti a simple essay that shows how the mathematics from 607 BCE to 1914 is erroneous. Do you remember how they got the calculation wrong in the first place, with them counting a year zero, which threw out the… Read more »
Good point about math, ImJustAsking. When the discussion forum is up, I’ll let you post that article as you can explain it better than I.
Don’t worry Meleti I do get the hint now. Since you have just recently removed a couple of my posts. This posts were not meant to offend, just as I’m sure Jesus did not wish to offend his listeners as to new truths that he had to share with them. Not that I am in the same league as Jesus, far from it being a very imperfect human being, but this new information that I have to share is after all from his celestial angels. It is not that new really as it has been around for over 70 years… Read more »
Jesus’ “new truths” as you call them, were just that, “truths”. He did not speak of his own originality. He did not share unsubstantiated opinion but said, “it is written”, or “have you not read”. His support and authority came from the Scriptures and when he spoke something new, it was accepted because he had been publicly authorized by God to do so, not only by his ability to perform miracles, but by God’s own voice from heaven instructing us to “listen to him”. (John 14:10; Mat. 4:4; 12:3; 17:5) That your information purportedly comes from celestial angels is of… Read more »
I second everything you said in reply to ‘A searcher for truth’ (ASFT) Why do we need angels, when we have Jesus? And was not that point Paul was making to the Hebrews? We have something better than angels!! Meleti, although I have not seen the threads you deleted the way ASFT described them sounds suspiciously familar. When e-Watchman had his forum there was a member that posted similar ideas about information from angels. There was a book that he used to talk about. Ah I remember now, just as I type. I think it was the book of Unitaria… Read more »
A searcher for truth: I want you to know that I have read and listened to everything you have said. As Meleti has pointed out though, you simply must try to appreciate that everyone here is interested in discussing bible truth, mainly it seems, because we have come to realise over time that what we were taught as THE truth, is not as much truth as it seemed to be. You have to try and understand why this is the case. I’m hoping that with a couple of comments that I may be able to help you to understand. “Since… Read more »
“Is not the nature of the forum, to explore Biblical truth wherever it leads to, even if it is disconcerting to some? “Striving for unbiased Bible research”?” There is nothing disconcerting about biblical truth. Jesus said to keep seeking for it as for hidden treasure. Everytime you just “think” you have discovered something a little more, it builds you up. “What does unbiased mean?” It simply means that in the context of Bible research you are willing to consider any understanding that fits rather than shoe horn what you already know. “Perhaps you should change that to mean, unbiased as… Read more »
Good work Joel. I appreciate your patience in tackling this point by point. I am cautious about censorship, but you (along with some of the other counter-comments) have demonstrated why it is in the best interests of the site for stuff like this to be blocked.
sorry to ignore you; I am keen to hear your thoughts on
the MoL on its own thread, along with those of Joel,
Meleti, Apollos and everyone else’s.
Hi Ross, no worries No offense taken 🙂 I really look forward to this particular discussion because I think collectively and with Gods HS we may step closer to the Truth. Sometimes I have to pinch myself. How could you, me, Apollos et al who are nothing in the GSOT actually be touching on Truth when much better men before us have been so wrong? True, we also could be totally of the mark, but because the Bible is self interpreting (ie in this case between the books of Daniel, Rev and Thess) then provided we keep this in mind,… Read more »
Meleti, one other thing. We will need an edit button.
It may have happened to you, that after a post you spot a mistake or need to add something to clarify a point. At the moment we have to post a new comment. As I am doing now. When in fact it would be much easier if one had say, ten minutes to edit the post, before it it became permanent.
I’ve seen this done on other forums and I believe it would be a nice to have feature on the one you are proposing.
Just a thought.
An excellent one. I haven’t found a way to do that with this forum, but I’m hoping once we do the conversion, it will also be possible here.
I think that is very doable. I’ll explore the technical end of things with Apollos, and we’ll see how we can implement that idea. Sounds like a good way to proceed.
I wonder if you could just open a thread on the MoL
topic where the sub-categorization feature is switched
off, which would keep all replies of equal width and
in strictly chronological order,
so as to aid in orientation on the page as to its inviolable
sequence, as that would be all that is needed to facilitate
the flow of discussion a bit more.
Just a thought from a tech-dreamer.
Thanks for the suggestion. I think we can do that. We should have the discussion forum up and running very soon.
Hmm, the system doesn’t seem to work for me;
when I send my replies to posts further up, they
end up right at the bottom here and out of
context; why is that, it seems to work alright
for everybody else – do I sense a software
conspiracy here? lol
Are you clicking on the reply directly under the post you are replying to?
Here is my take on the trinity: If Jesus was ‘very God,’ then He, like His Father, was ‘very immortal;’ hence His death was ‘very fake,’ and those who believe in it are ‘very unsaved’ and also ‘very stupid.’ The argument that only His ‘humanity’ died for us is an unacceptable cop-out. If the whole Christ, including His very soul, didn’t actually die into non-existence, then the resurrection was a mere resuscitation, and the corresponding ransom repurchasing transaction is a mere sham, and that is the whole point of the trinity. Did Adam just forfeit his ‘humanity,’ to be rewarded… Read more »
What about a Trinity that does not include Jesus himself, would that solve this theological problem and controversy among Christians?
I would like to suggest here that ideas about ‘extra-terrestrial civilizations’
and other such myths, are promoted by Satan to artificially raise ethical
dilemmas about the suppression of ‘demon rights’ etc.
as just another ‘minority’ group worthy of ‘special protection,’ who
along with all other humans not submitting to this ‘genocidal’ Jehovah
and His Christ, are in clear and present danger of being exterminated
by Him at the coming ‘hate crime’ of Armageddon.
Hence, anyone buying into this ‘advanced aliens’ lie, is actually
serving Satan’s agenda, and places himself firmly outside of
Thanks Meleti, I look forward to that 🙂
Ross, I don’t know if you saw my earlier reply (it was way back in the earlier comments). Any case a brother and I have been discussing between ourselves the MOL, Revelation and Daniel. What is amazing that this is the first time I’ve looked at this particular thread since we started our research and the way you have joined the dots up is virtually the same connections we have made. Coincidence? God’s guidance? Who knows, but I was blown away by the fact that independently we have seen the same patterns. Anycase I’m in the process of putting together… Read more »
We will be starting a discussion forum soon, once we work out the technical aspect of implementing it. That will be an ideal place for your discussion on the MoL to take place.
I want to volunteer to help moderate. Forums get out of hand quickly.
Alex that is a good question.
Meleti what would be the boundaries of minimum belief? For example would you allow brothers who have started to lean towards the Trinity to comment on their belief (an no, I’m not talking about me).
They are pretty well outlined in the “About Our Forum” and “Commenting Etiquette” pages. For a practical case in point, see this recent comment. On the one hand we want to be reasonable and avoid dogmatism and the trap of presuming we know so much that anyone who doesn’t agree with us is sinning against God. This is the failing of the current position of the Organization. On the other hand, we want to be obedient to our God who instructed us through John thus: (2 John 9-11) . . .Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of… Read more »
While I don’t believe in the trinity as taught by some religions, I think it falls within the realm of Christian discussion. What I mean by that is, there are many texts that can be used to support their view. I do not consider the denial or acceptance of the trinity to be a fundamental Christian teaching necessary for salvation. Acknowledging Jesus as God’s Son and the Christ is essential, and Trinitarian do believe this.
I agree, Meleti. As moderator of another site, there is nothing worse than letting a forum digress into speculative, doctrinal and argumentative discussions that end with presumption attacking presumption until the sincere, newly arriving Jehovah’s Witnesses who are needing a safe landing place are frightened off unnecessarily. The forum moderator must decide early on to stick to principles that factually support a site’s decorum. Since you have already done this by demonstrating Occam’s Razor in not going beyond what is written, you have correctly admonished us as Paul did the Thessalonians: “Make sure of all things, hold fast to what… Read more »
Thank you for the support. I’ve just now had to do this for one commenter who wasn’t taking the hint. You are right. Allowing one individual complete freedom of expression could actually end up restricting the freedom of expression of others. The very ones we want to have join us could be chased away. That just wouldn’t do.
Is not the nature of the forum, to explore Biblical truth wherever it leads to, even if it is disconcerting to some? “Striving for unbiased Bible research”? What does unbiased mean? Perhaps you should change that to mean, unbiased as long as you use only the Bible to prove your point. Even if convincing proof can be found elsewhere? Such as Geology, Archeology, Genetics, and ancient history that has not come through the Holy Roman and British Empire, such as the Sumerian texts for instance? In this case should we all just stick our heads in the sand, when this… Read more »
The problem is that you continue to express your views without providing an proof. The purpose of the forum is unbiased Bible research. While speculation or theorizing has its place in that context, it must be built on evidence and not unsubstantiated personal opinion.
It seems to me that the simplest boundary would be to exclude doctrine that does not even claim a basis in scripture. Whether a particular interpretation of scripture holds up to scrutiny and harmonizes with the full body of scripture is certainly something that can be discussed. But there has to be a common foundation in scripture in order for there to be a basis for discussion. I recently requested removal of personal information posted by one person because I felt that he was promoting a sect. Were all the ideas that the sect is teaching based firmly on God’s… Read more »
Okay, so you would allow the discussion of the Trinity. Now I have mixed feelings whether that is a good or bad thing. On the one hand my liberal side would say yes lets go for it. But I’m aware that there are many ‘trolls’ on the internet who will try to take up inordinate amounts of discussion time, with this subject. This could be a distraction from the real things we as an ‘ex’ JW community need to be discussing. We could for example point them to excellent blogs, like this one http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html which is authored by an ex… Read more »
You raise some excellent points, ImJustAsking. We will strive to keep our forum on topic, providing a place for the interchange of research with a view to a deeper understanding of Scripture. As part of this, we will reveal false teachings in our publications when these arise. This we see as a protection against indoctrination. Our growing community should always enjoy the freedom that the truth provides; the freedom of the children of God. We don’t want to discourage open, respectful discussion. However, old discussions like evolution vs. creation or the Trinity have been ongoing for decades, or centuries in… Read more »
In any case, no one would be obliged to discuss anything that doesn’t interest them. I think that the concern of taking up time with things that might not be the most interesting thing to a particular person is obviously never going to be resolvable because we all have different issues that for one reason or another are going to be of more concern for us. Meleti said it well. I didn’t endorse a discussion of the Trinity per se. But in discussing the nature of Jesus there is bound to be some overlap. So my general question to you… Read more »
I was embarrassed to learn how badly our literature misrepresents the trinity doctrine. We teach that the churches believe that the Father and Son are the same person. This is not what the trinity doctrine actually is. Now I feel intellectually dishonest every time I’ve debated it in service and called people stupid for believing it.
I myself feel the same way Sargon. I have been there, and I remember specific conversations where I was fixed in my misunderstanding of what the person was saying. I think that in itself is one reason to have the conversation here. If JWs reading this site truly understood the doctrine, they would spend less time having these face-offs with people at their door, when in fact they are not even comprehending the person’s thought process. Of course in some cases the person to whom we are speaking doesn’t understand the doctrine either, so it just compounds the problem. And… Read more »
To Meleti, just to go on in relation to your statement about Seth, that is indeed an interesting statement that you have made there about Adam and Eve having many children before Seth came on to the scene and that would then make sense if his other brothers and their children chased after him in revenge for killing Abel. But the Biblical account does not render it this way. No it does makes it appear that Adam and Even only had Abel and Cain up and until that time and so because of their heartbreak they went on to have… Read more »
>>But the Biblical account does not render it this way. On the contrary, the Bible account leaves no room for another conclusion if we are willing to accept the Bible account as true. If we are not willing to do that, then we have no right to cherry pick which parts we accept as true and which as false. So let us accept it, because that’s what we are here for, and see where it leads us. Did Adam become father to sons and daughters only after the birth of Seth? That would mean that for a hundred years Eve,… Read more »
To Meleti, yes the ones that are referred to in the Bible as Adam and Eve, were fully formed humans as they were created this way by the advanced beings. But from information I have available they were put in the garden of Eden to progress the human race that already were in existence both physically and culturally and spiritually. As for the names of Adam and Eve, this was the names given to these ones by the Jewish Scribes I do believe to render them as the originators of all mankind, but in reality they were the genetic up-lifters… Read more »
To”A searcher for truth”: Please understand that I say this with the greatest respect. As stated in the “About This Forum” page, “The purpose of this discussion area is to provide a forum for honest-hearted Jehovah’s Witnesses who wish to deepen their understanding of Scripture through the interchange of thoughts, findings and research with other like-minded brothers and sisters around the world.” Therefore to discredit the Bible by saying “I do believe that God’s word is contained within the pages of the Bible, but not that the entire Bible is God’s Word.” is to undermine the basis for all discussion… Read more »
Oh my, I just figured out what the ‘REPLY’ function under
each post is all about, and how it influences the chronology
of the posts, and causes them to thin out and form their own
sequence – what a REVELATION to a tech-luddite like me, lol!
Meleti, Apollos and all, sorry to derail the thread somewhat with my condensed comment about the ‘MoL,’ [man of lawlessness] , which I would like to discuss some more with you, and get the Holy Spirit to update us on – seeing we are gathered here in Christ’s Name – perhaps on it’s own thread, either a new one, or if you can refer me to an existing one, since there is a lot of relevant material to consider, which cannot be compacted too much without losing people in the conclusions drawn due to the lack of details provided. On… Read more »
Apollos and I are working to set up a discussion section to the forum. I’m hoping we can have that up and running before month’s end, but since we’ve never done it before, I’m not sure what obstacles we’ll run into. Once it is in place, it will be an ideal place for the type of discussion you’re seeking.
Im not being funny here but they way they bark on about dress and grooming . Can you imagine the state of john the baptist living out in the wilderness or even jesus after 40 days there .Why do they have to go to extremes all the time it only takes a bit of common sense to get it right .Why are they so image conscious when the bible says its the person on the inside that matters kev
Sorry that comment was meant for the love kindness article kev
If you post it there I will remove these if you like.
I finally read the study article this week. The GB seems extremely paranoid. I can’t find one positive or encouraging thought in this article. This whole WT study has an Us Vs. Them theme. They are calling the media liars, making references to hoaxes,scams and deception without any examples…. The tone of the WT is a huge paranoid rant. Why are they getting the brothers and sisters all riled up? *Not only do we have to shun “apostates” but if someone is “veering ” towards apostasy( critical conversations or engaging in “speculation “)we should cut them off. Beware of those… Read more »
There are a few clues about the man of lawlessness [MoL] implicit in Scriptures, other than the ones we are used to look at. The temple of ‘the God’ would normally be the Body of Christ, but there are several reasons why Paul seems to have another ‘temple’ in mind here. For one thing, the MoL will sit down PUBLICLY in whatever the temple will be, but the world public knows nothing about the Body of Christ. Daniel 11 calls the MoL the king of the north; so there will be a religio-political absolutist dictatorship ruling the world at that… Read more »
I want to reply to you a little more later, but I agree with a lot of what you have said. I can’t help feeling that in the grand scheme of things the stage for the events described are still in the germination stage, with little experiments having been carried out here and there – like research. There is going to be a final attempt to unify mankind, a final grab for power and a final war. There are a lot of pieces coming together over time, but when all of the technology, all of the attitudes will be exactly… Read more »
Ross, I do agree with some of what you say here, but what really is true Christianity? Is it simply those persons who believes one hundred percent as to what the bible says, particularly what is contained within the New Testament, or is it those who have the attitude of the Christ as in putting on the Christ, and following in his footsteps closely and his teachings of the “Kingdom of God” as was written down in the four gospels and elaborated on in the other New Testament writings (Greek scriptures)? Jesus essential teachings was that of the “Kingdom of… Read more »
>>I do not believe in creation as many Christians believe but is more in line with an evolving process by design, and not that of the Darwinian model, but where life has been seeded on this planet that is designed to adapt and reproduce according to the adaptation process with a little genetic tweaking here and there by advanced beings whether material or Angelic. We don’t discourage speculation and person opinion, especially when appropriately labeled as such. However, in this case, we have the testimony of eye-witnesses who were around for the creation process, so we would not want to… Read more »
This scripture here should be particularly thought provoking for all who read it as to the Creation account. Genesis 1 26 ¶ And God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. [LITV] The word that I’m pointing to especially in this verse is the plural word of “us”. And yet we have another verse that renders the plural word of… Read more »
The eye-witnesses would be Jehovah God and the Word. John makes this clear in the opening chapter of this gospel. There you have the “us”. We also have a precise geneology to trace both the lineage of man and the length of time he has been around. It would be one thing to speculate about a “little genetic tweaking here and there by advanced beings whether material or Angelic” if we did not have God’s own word to tell us what really happened. I don’t know who you are referring to by the “Watchers” and the “Unseen ones”. As for… Read more »
Okay, so do we actually have God’s living “Word” as in reference to Jesus having made a statement about the creation as rendered in the Genesis account as written down by Jesus disciples for us to read today? Yes we do have Jesus speaking about the creation of human beings as in the Jewish concept of them, and they were real beings here on the earth, though they originally were not known by those names. Here is a passage of what Jesus spoke of in relation to them. Matthew 19 3 ¶ And the Pharisees came near to Him, tempting… Read more »
>>though they originally were not known by those names. What proof do you have of this? >>No reference at all to Adam and Eve here, but he was speaking about the creation of humans here in a general sense that they were created as male and female. Of course there is a reference here to Adam and Eve. “Have you not read…?” His audience had indeed read about Adam and Eve. You yourself quote Gen. 1:27 which says God created them male and female and the only humans named in that account which Jesus listeners had read were Adam and… Read more »
Sorry for not giving Scripture locations, Meleti, because I tend to quote, conflate and allude to Scripture in a rather carefree way, as if everybody were already plugged into my mind, lol – bad habit, that. Anyone not familiar with quotes, please just type a few words in the Search window of Adobe in the NWT, and it will give you the exact location of the Scripture. Anyhow, thanks for this great site with forum, and all your excellent, even-handed input; you seem to be in a period of transition here like the brothers in the first century were, with… Read more »
This subject keeps resurfacing over the last few weeks 🙂 I don’t have a set position. In my mind however it is hard to argue that this can be one man or organization. Paul states it was a “secret” in his day. However, he also says that the traits of the MOL were “ already at work” in the first century…… 2 Thess 2:7 “For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.” Correct me….but in my mind… Read more »
This will be a mystery to Gods people, as they are fooled by the Devil into believing that this MOL sits down in the temple of The God, that is among Gods people, this is why Paul said in (v3) let no one seduce YOU!
sorry should say will be fooled by the Devil not believing that this MOL is not in the temple of the God.
2Thes2: 1 However, brothers; regarding the appearance of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One and our being gathered to him… we urge you 2 not to quickly lose hope, or to be disturbed by [something from the] spirit, or by words, or [by things] in a letter that may have come through us, indicating that the Lord’s Day has arrived. 3 Don’t allow anyone to mislead you in any way; because, [that day] won’t come until after there has been a great turning away and a revealing of the lawless man… the son of destruction. 4 For, he opposes and… Read more »
“Also the MOL is referred to as the son of destruction (v3) Judas is said also to be the son of destruction.” I read your thoughts with interest. I want to see if I understand you correctly. I have read of attaching this significance to Judas being labelled “son of perdition/destruction” before, but I wonder if it is not meant in a more figurative capacity rather than a composite body, or if there is a themed figurative MoL AND a fulfillment MoL? For me there are too many parts missing for Judas to mirror or match the MoL. For example,… Read more »
Could I just pick up on this question of the “man of lawlessness” if I may?
I’m not so convinced of the symbolic quasi-person interpretation – i.e. catholic church.
To me 2 Thess 2 and Rev 13 have some similarities. Without going into a personal interpretation of the Wild Beasts described and so on, the beasts in Rev 13, do a number of the types of things that the man of lawlessness is described to do by Paul and I am now more convinced of that having read “A searcher for truths” comment on Daniel 11. Any takers?
I agree. I have thought for some time now that these passages contain parallels. In part that’s why I don’t buy into the theory that some have put forward about the GB fitting the bill. From reading all of the parallel passages it just seems to be a whole lot bigger than that.
Apollos, could you expound upon the topic in a future post, please?
Hi Vassy Ross has already done it in part. http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/04/avoid-being-quickly-shaken-from-your-reason-w13-1215/#comment-8265 The general idea of Satan attempting to establish a future world political/religious entity in an effort to counter Christianity is the way I also see these scriptures harmonizing. However, my mindset parts company with Ross’s at this point: “Now, let’s assume the GB are neither stupid nor ill informed; so why are they silent about what is going on in the world, and how that relates to prophecy?” The thing is that the GB has been preparing us for a counterfeit world government. They have been saying that any declaration… Read more »
I think anyone claiming the GB is foretold in the scriptures is reading too much importance in the overseeing body of just 7 million people. There are billions of other humans. Jesus died for all mankind, not just a handful of us. That’s not to say they can’t resemble traits of the Pharisees or the man of lawlessness. Any of us could fall for that ourselves in our dealings with others sometimes. But I do think about recognizing the fruit parable. Recently the only good fruits on the tree seem those remaining from many years ago, the inherited ones only.… Read more »
“The thing is that the GB has been preparing us for a counterfeit world government.” I catch your reasoning based on the Micah 7:7 article, although I had to remind myself of exactly what it said. The article at that point was though, to be fair quite vague. Probably as it should be, it occupied a slightly more middle ground approach than is normal in watchtower interpretations. “Who will make this significant future declaration of “Peace and security”? What role will the leaders of Christendom and of other religions play? How will the leaders of various governments be involved in… Read more »
I agree Joel. The GB are looking in the wrong direction. However, as Apollos noted their conclusions are not far off. The GB should be focused on the MOL not a “peace and security” cry.
“In part that’s why I don’t buy into the theory that some have put forward about the GB fitting the bill. ”
No, I think that idea is really without any basis.
To Joel, yes there is a direct relation from Daniel’s prophecy to this particular chapter, especially in verse 11 of Revelation chapter 13. But I believe that prophecies when made at any time are probabilities of future events and so when these prophecies are given, whether through dreams or visions or even by word by the angelic entities, this is what they can predict at that stage or time in history. But because of the collective human free will, it is extremely difficult to predict events 100% in accuracy because once the prophecy is actually out there for public consumption… Read more »
I think to some extent you are probably right. To be honest, I do not personally think that (in general) human behaviour is all that complex. Usually people do exactly what you expect them to do and that is just from a human perspective not from the vantage point of the spirit realm. God knows the number of hairs on our head and notices every organism on this planet. For all we know, time could also be a malleable something which we physical creations exist within. I’m quite sure that God can look at and evaluate time and likely outcomes… Read more »
Maybe the GB doesn’t want the R&F to know about the case of the “Media Report” by NBC News about the Candace Conti trial in Fremont, California. “In what both sides described as a momentous ruling, a jury in Oakland, Calif., has found that Jehovah’s Witnesses was partly responsible for the alleged sexual abuse of a girl by one of its members and must pay her more than $20 million.” (as reported By James Eng, NBC News. There has been a lot of media coverage on that trial. Perhaps the GB doesn’t want us to believe all of that media… Read more »
‘John The Baptist’ here hit the nail on the head, when he said: “I stand to lose everyone I love in life.” Take comfort, brother, everyone loving Jehovah for the right reasons has faced, and come off victorious, in this challenge of our faith and unconditional love of truth, above even our own souls. No matter who we love in this life, only our exclusive loyalty to Jesus can possibly benefit them, to also get a hold on the real life in Him. “He that has greater affection for father or mother than me, is not worthy of me…” “Let… Read more »
These are excellent scriptures. Thank you, Ross. Perhaps you could furnish the references to save us looking them up in the WT-Lib.
If were talking of child abuse here .The big problem is that once you have set yourselves up as the true religion and led the brothers to believe that they are living in some sort of utopia its then difficult to admit that these things do go on especially when weve slated other religions . T he real truth is sad as it is they cant vouch for 7 million people and these things could go on in any religion or any organisation we can think of the scriptures themselves bear witness to this . The wheat and the weeds… Read more »
Did anyone notice in that talk by Morris he said he was going to heaven, like it was a sure thing. I thought Christ was the judge of that, doesn’t one have to remain faithful till death or until Christs return to receive that honour.
Very presumptuous, they give no honour to the Son, the one that has been given “All authority” my impression was they think that they are above Christ.
Sad, but hopefully many JW will wake up and see that these men have placed themselves in the seat of Moses.
The judgment starts with the house of God first. 1Peter 4:17 Why, the time of judgment has arrived… and it’s starting with the House of God. So if it’s starting with us first; how will those who don’t obey the good news of God end up? 18 For, ‘If the righteous are just barely being saved, where will those who are godless and the sinners make a showing?’ 19 So, let those who (by God’s will) are suffering, dedicate their lives to the faithful Creator by doing whatever is good. The GB teach that God’s house has already been judged,… Read more »
“A recent case in Oklahoma could eventually implicate the governing body, leading to lawsuits against them directly” See:-.
The Catholic Church is in the same boat. The UN ordered to surrender all information in regards to same type of abuse crimes.
Perhaps this is how the beast will attack Babylon the Great.
I recall recently hearing or reading to not believe media reports. They must be knowing things are coming and already in damage control mode.
One of the news reports said that once this case is over against JW, the litigator expected there would be a next case ready in line.
If the attack on religion were to start in this way, and it came against Jehovah’s Witnesses, we would not be able to say “well, it’s just Satan’s world attacking the only true religion.” With public access to all court documents, the truth would come out and our laundry would not be hanging clean and dry.
I don’t understand the GB or any religion when it relates to child abuse cases…. Call the police and deal with the person judicially! Why is this so difficult??? This person broke Jehovah’s law and Caesar’s law There is no middle ground here. How can we be counseled regarding obeying the ” superior authorities” relatively to God, when it is clear the GB/WT is not doing that? We are constantly reprimanded to report wrongdoing to the elders if we come to know of a matter or else we will be guilty of sharing in the wrongdoer’s sins…. Is the GB… Read more »
Meleti Like me you have probably taken an interest in some of the court documents already available. Trying to wade through a heavy case is not for the faint-hearted, but it is the only way to evaluate the raw data. I would think that there are very few JW’s who would do this. As someone has already commented, we have received a lot of information recently priming us not to trust the media. I agree that this is no coincidence, and is a message principally preparing us for the event that these cases do become more public. All the GB… Read more »
It is indeed an excellent strategy. However, I don’t think it will work as well as they hope. All of this, Catholicism, Protestantism, Fundamentalism and Jehovah’s Witnesses, is a field in which wheat and weeds are growing. When the harvest arrives, the sons of the kingdom will shine. (I have that on the very best of authority.) 🙂
Well, that’s hardly fair to claim authority from God’s Word. Just think what chaos would ensue if we all started doing that. In the interests of unity I demand that you just adhere closely to the artwork in the publications from now on.
Truth by pictogram. I guess there is a reason that there are no inspired drawings in the inspired “word” of God.
I think THE man of lawlessness has some serious credentials verse 9 Counterfeit signs and miracles and wonders there will be no mistaking this guy but you know the mystery of this lawlessness was already evident in the first century Im on the lookout but i dont believe ive seen anyone fit all his credentials yet kev
I have to agree all of the comments thus far. I couldn’t even get through the article without being angry. I am fighting discouragement. I will revisit the article at some point this week before my meeting. KevC I have to agree with you there. I believe the “man “ of lawlessness may not necessarily be an individual…. it may be a “group” . Given all the things that has been occurring in religions around the world in this time of the end….. I am sure that many individuals could fit that passage. I certainly agree that the GB or… Read more »
I think this article by Perimeno (who is a Jw) about the man of lawlessness is interesting: http://perimeno.ca/God%27s_Organization.htm#Lawlessness
Anonymous I agree, yes that is a very good article, and should be considered by scripture.
Theres so much i could say about this article but lets start at the theme avoid being quickly shaken from our reasoning .If we want to know how to do that why dont the brothers just read the whole of the chapter and get the sense of it .it really doesnt take that much working out to see that theressomething seriously wrong here
I believe this article is an attempt to cover the governing body and the backlash of negative media attention soon to come. It’s only a matter of time before the GB is implicated in covering up child abuse. The GB knows they can no longer hide this information in the age of mass media and the internet. The only way to protect themselves is to get all the publishers to distrust even credible media reports and blindly follow the GB. If the brothers see hypocrisy in the GB then they will no longer follow them. I predict that the organization… Read more »
Sargon I am with you. yes it seems that the GB are in a position where they realise that the bad publicity is taking a toll, and the internet has become a huge challenge to try and keep the past hidden. The donations may be dwindling and a few law suits coming up. What really concerned me was the Nov15th WT study article where they encourage all JW to follow the slave regardless if it may appear strange from a human standpoint… Makes one wonder what they have up their sleave, I know I sound paranoid but bells are ringing… Read more »
If they are guilty ( Jehovah and Jesus knows if they are) of the wrongdoing they are being accused of by the nations it is shameful. To attempt to hide behind the scriptures to explain their “legal” issues is disgusting. If they are willingly and knowingly trying to cover their tracks and are leading Jesus’ Sheep astray (or off a cliff) they will account for their blood ( spiritually speaking). You can’t pull the wool over all the eyes of Jesus’ sheep. We must Listen to the voice of The Shepherd and not allow the GB’s voices to drown Him… Read more »
John The Baptist, as I read your heartfelt comments my heart breaks for you. I understand the delima you are in. It sounds like you are having a “Crisis of Conscience”, just as Raymond Franz did many years ago, and just as I have been through myself. I believe we must each decide who we are going to be loyal to….Jehovah God or the Governing Body? We cannot serve two masters. I have chosen to be loyal to Jehovah God, and I find that I can now earnestly pray to him directly, through his son Jesus Christ. It is frightful… Read more »
I believe that Jehovah is revealing who the “man of lawlessness ” is through the WT study articles, there are many I believe honest truth lovers in the congregations, I think this is a huge test for many of us that want to desperately teach with spirit and truth. The scripture in Thess says that the end will not come until the man of lawlessness is revealed, (son of destruction) like Judas sat at the table and even partook of the emblems, none of the other disciples knew their was a traitor among them, Christ did, and he revealed this… Read more »
Someone once said to me “If you are in the ‘truth’ long enough the loop tape will replay itself”
Same lies different day
I believe that there is a connection to the “Man Of Lawlessness” to this prophecy of the prophet Daniel. I will quote it here for analysis. Daniel 11 27 And both of them, the kings, shall have in their hearts to do evil, and they will speak lies at one table. But it will not prosper, for the end still shall be at the appointed time. 28 And he will return to his land with great wealth. And his heart shall be against the holy covenant. And he will act, and he shall return to his land. 29 At the… Read more »
Interesting – I hadn’t considered Dan 11 in parallel with Thess 2, but to me, especially in v36 the similarities are quite striking. What do you think of Rev 13 in connection with both of these passages?
I’m late to this thread, but incredibly a brother and I have made the same connection about 2 weeks ago. We are in the process of joining all the dots together, because the similarities I believe go further. When I’m done with my essay, I’ll be posting it for Meleti to peruse. But yeah, you’re right the two are tied up.
Out of the topic but if interesting to hear recent Anthony’s Morris talk in Rome , here it is – http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=td22FGFywv8
Is this the one where he implies that if we don’t visit Bethel or take our children there ever, we’ll have to answer to Jehovah for it? If so, at what point in the video can we find that remark?
It’s early on, but you really would be doing yourself a disservice not to listen to the whole thing. There are plenty of other nuggets in there.
At the 16:20 mark. Interesting. Seems we have our own version of Mecca. But it’s nice to know that the “Magic Kingdom” of Disney World is now acceptable for our kids for visit.
Lol!!!!!! I am sorry I had to laugh @ “magic kingdom” . You are so spot on about that in context of this talk. Even in view of all that’s going on and the frenzy the brothers are in at my local KH …this talk is still very shocking to me!
He also insulted the supposed Italian dress sense of wearing tight pants. He also said something like ‘there are definitely some ties here that I wouldn’t wear.’ Also, ‘Italians can be excitable sometimes’.
There’s so much more………………..
Yes Apollos and especially his reference to the brown-headed cowbird laying its bigger eggs in nests of other birds so when the chicks hatch the cowbird chick takes all the food leaving the rest to starve if not kicked out of the nest. He applies it to a parent depriving children of spiritual food and kicking them out of the next too soon. But I beg to differ. Having raised my own and watching them raise their own, the cowbird more appropriately symbolizes a religious hierarchy that falsely lays its eggs in the family nest to deprive the true spiritual… Read more »
That’s a thought provoking alternative analogy sw1. Any attempt by the parents to remove the cowbird egg apparently results in a “scorched-nest” policy, whereby the whole family suffers. I guess one message is to fully consider what you are letting into the nest before there comes a point where it cannot be removed without repercussions. That having been said I am still not ready to throw out the babies with the cowbird egg. As anderestimme has recently written, there is still something good in our congregational arrangements. But it seems to depend upon the people, not upon the doctrine. It… Read more »
Okay, I forced myself to listen to the whole things–I hate interpreted talks. Kind of like driving a car by stopping every 100 yards, then starting again. In any case, here are my initial thoughts. I mean on disrespect, but what kept coming to my mind as I listened to his tone and the authoritative way he told, even ordered, the brothers on what to do was “a God’s voice and not a man’s!” He was on a mission to get rid of tight pants which he finds “disgusting”. At about the 42:30 minute mark, you’ll hear “Those who I’ve… Read more »
I think that his remark about christian parents sitting their children down and say them good bye and that ” Jehovah is never sentimental” is very judgmental. Is that really for real ? It seems to my that some of the Brothers in the leadership position don’t really need wait for our only judge !
That one sounded like the old scare tactics again. We don’t motive with love, but with fear. He was completely disregarding the scripture that says the children are sanctified because of the believer. Even if there is only one believer, they are sanctified. (1 Cor. 7:14) It seems that clear teachings from the Bible can be disregarded if they conflict with what the Watchtower has to say. Truly, we have become like the Catholic Church which puts the Catechism over the Holy Scriptures.
“Sit your children down and say good-bye. Jehovah is never sentimental.” This struck me very distinctly as the voice of a stranger. Since they have been steadily shifting Jesus into the sidelines it might not be a surprise, but much of this talk convinces me that we are not hearing the words of the fine shepherd. John 10:3-5 “The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has got all his own out, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him,… Read more »
You are right Apollos it is certainly a stranger’s voice. It is unscriptual as Meleti points out. We have come to know the Father through Jesus… Could you imagine Jesus saying such a thing? Our Father does not lack compassion for His sheep in any way. He is not threatening us or the lives of our children if we are not “spiritually strong” by the GB’s standards.It’s comforting to know that if we are lost Jesus will abandon the others to come find us! Jehovah says He will not forget our children even if we do! Is. 49:15-16, “Can a… Read more »
If God were without sentiment how could he yearn for the work of his hands? Why would he sacrifice his own Son? Why would he wait patiently for even gross sinners to return to him? This view is completely unscriptural.
Without sentiment, the logical thing to do is issue judgement and scrap the defective creation. God does not need people to repent in order to display perfect justice without sentiment. Yet he waits because He WANTS them to repent. Surely?
Joel So true. Isn’t this exactly what we’ve spent the last couple of weeks studying in the Draw Close book in contrast to deists who teach a necessary but detached god? One dictionary definition of “sentimental” – of or prompted by feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia. How many scriptures would we be able to list that clearly state that Jehovah God IS prompted by feelings of tenderness, that he can be made to feel sad and that he can feel regret? We are made in His image. We know these feelings because He knows them. Such a bold assertion… Read more »
The direction we are heading is apparent. Take a look at some points brought out in some older public talk outlines compared to newer ones: (56 – Into the New World Under Christ’s Leadership) http://theworldnewsmedia.org/file/view/Outline056.pdf •Men were not created to rule or lead other men (Jer 10:23; ce 189-93) They do not have ability or right to do so (yp 305) As Christians, we have as our Leader not any human but Christ (Mt 23:10) •Those hungering and thirsting in a spiritual sense look to him (Isa 55:1, 2, 4; sl 95-107) He is OUR Leader •If we fully accept… Read more »
About 48:30-48:33 – This brother says of King David, “When he’s resurrected, you tell him I spoke fondly of him! ” I guess since we will be on earth with David and this brother will be in heaven we should be sure to relay the message Approx. 1:04:00 –In this illustration/story Is he saying the dog is “the only one in the whole house that behaved like a Christian.” ? At the 35:36 mark – he tells parents that we may as well say goodbye to our children now before Armageddon if we haven’t strengthened their sprituality (“Sit ‘em down… Read more »
An excellent point. Here he has an audience of thousands to influence with something spiritually upbuilding, but instead he turns it into another Watchtower study on dress and grooming and service and obedience.
I’m starting to have a hard time as pioneer and servant, ever since I realized that we are not preaching the good news of the kingdom Jesus taught (in regards to us becoming children of God), and now I’ve also learned recently that I was not baptized in the name of the father, son, holy spirit. So in the end, we don’t go out and make disciples of Christ, but disciples of the GB. I feel disgusted down to my stomach and I don’t know how to bear this burden. I am being the thing I loathe the most ..… Read more »
There is no easy answer, I’m afraid. I’ll be posting on this topic on Thursday. Perhaps as a consequence there will be some advice and guidance from others on the site who have faced or are facing a similar situation.
My only solution to this problem is just to be a low-profile witness…
I am in the same situation my friend. I am slowly trying to help my wife come into the true understanding. I think we should all help each other on how to bring a positive message to the world. Right now I focus on starting biblestudies, and then I do them with purely the bible and research on my end. It takes a lot longer, but it’s very rewarding. Next to that I’m thinking about ways to do the worship that is acceptable to god, namely helping widows and orphans. I feel sad that this is something I have neglected… Read more »
I don’t think it would be wise for me to give you advice as such, but I hope I can say something that helps. So, I will try to be careful with what I say, since I don’t want to mislead anyone. The onus is really on each individual to evaluate, something we are taught as witnesses and then subliminally discouraged from doing. Finding a group of likeminded people sharing the conclusions you had come to yourself based on the same material is reassuring for a start! For what it is worth, the conclusions that you have reached independently about… Read more »
“Are we to infer from this that present-day Christians do not have a limited understanding of the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose? Are we being led to believe that we now have “that which is complete”?” ————————————————— Here is what it says in the 1992 Watchtower … “Paul continued: “For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.” (1 Corinthians 13:9, 10) The gifts of knowledge and prophecy were incomplete. Apparently, such prophecy did not go into detail, and each prophet was partial in disclosing… Read more »
Thanks, BeenMislead. I was afraid of that, but couldn’t remember for sure. There is a degree of presumptuousness to our belief in our own understanding that is really quite beyond the pale.
Great Scott! I did not realize that we had an article like this coming up. (Yes, I have been caught out not keeping up with the chariot, but I am only reading this material for the first time right now.) Meleti – kudos to you for a well balanced commentary. It’s certainly an article that could draw us into some emotional responses. The reality is that Christians need to maintain their power of reason. The last two paragraphs are pitched so finely in order to separate “you” from the message of the New Testament. And paragraph 15 helps us to… Read more »
Personally I wasn’t surprised over this study article coming on the heals of our last five. I could see a number were shaken. But as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2 says not to be “quickly shaken” over news of an “imminent” happening. Hello? How were Jehovah’s Witnesses built? No worries here, but I DO worry about R&F who are not allowed to peer outside of the reasoning box given them. As for Par. 5, are we not condemning our own reasoning? Were we not shaken many times by those leading us. And if we are just now being told not to… Read more »
Thanks Meleti. Yes the irony is immediately apparent. We are returning to the pre1975 days. The question asked in the KM regarding if this out last memorial has caused quite a stir among young ones. Or any who don’t remember 1975. It makes me so uneasy when people try to discuss this with me asking my thoughts. It seems we are bound to repeat the mistake. I really liked the description of the man of lawlessness. While it can easily fit other Christian religions, it can easily fit us as well. Especially for those who have served and who are… Read more »
The reference in the Kingdom Ministry you mentioned just shows yet again how all of this stuff works. I honestly hadn’t really thought about 2014 being the centenary of the war until later on last year, it just didn’t occur to me. It hasn’t even been in the media, in contrast with say the JFK incident? Surprising then, that since 1914 is very definitely supposed to be a year of proven significance to all witnesses, there is silence on 2014. Not even an acknowledgement that I have seen. Yet, in this article, strategically placed words “last memorial” to produce the… Read more »