Congregation Book Study:
Chapter 2, par. 21-24
The juice in this week’s Bible study comes from the box on page 24, “Questions for Meditation”. So let us follow that counsel and meditate on these points.
- Psalm 15:1-5 What does Jehovah expect of those who want to be his friends?
(Psalm 15:1-5) O Jehovah, who may be a guest in your tent? Who may reside in your holy mountain? 2 The one who is walking faultlessly, Practicing what is right And speaking the truth in his heart. 3 He does not slander with his tongue, He does nothing bad to his neighbor, And he does not defame his friends. 4 He rejects anyone who is contemptible, But he honors those fearing Jehovah. He does not go back on his promise, even when it is bad for him. 5 He does not lend his money on interest, And he does not accept a bribe against the innocent. Whoever does these things will never be shaken.
This Psalm makes no mention of being God’s friend. It does talk about being his guest. In pre-Christian times, the idea of being God’s son was more than one could hope for. How man could become reconciled back into the family of God was a mystery, what the Bible calls a “sacred secret”. That secret was revealed in the Christ. You will notice that this, and the next two bullet points in the box are taken from the Psalms. The hope that God’s servants had when the Psalms were written was to be a guest or a friend of God. However, Jesus revealed a new hope and a greater reward. Why are we going back to the tutor’s teaching now that the Master is in the house?
- 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 What conduct is essential if we are to maintain a close relationship with Jehovah?
(2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1) Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”
7 Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Including these verses seems somewhat incongruous given that our lesson is all about becoming God’s friend. Paul isn’t telling us how to gain friendship with God. He says if we do these things we have the promise God made that we “will become sons and daughters” of God. He’s apparently quoting from 2 Samuel 7:19 where Jehovah speaks of becoming a Father to David’s son Solomon; one of the few instances in the Hebrew Scriptures where He refers to a human as His son. Paul is here using this promise and under inspiration extending it to all Christians who will comprise the seed of David. Again, nothing about being God’s friend, but everything about being his son or daughter.[i]
Theocratic Ministry School
Bible Reading: Genesis 25-28
If you are troubled by Jacob’s willingness to lie and deceive so as to rob his brother of his father’s blessing, remember that these men were without law.
(Romans 5:13) 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law.
There was the law that the Patriarch laid down, and he was the ultimate human authority within the clan. What existed in those days was a culture of warring tribes. Each tribe had its King; Isaac was essentially the King of his tribe. There were certain rules of conduct which were accepted as tradition and which allowed the various tribes to work together. For example, it was okay to take a man’s sister without his permission, but touch a man’s wife, and there would be bloodshed. (Gen. 26:10, 11) It seems to me that the closest parallel we have in North America is that of urban gangs. They’ll live by their own rules and respect each other’s territory following certain mutually agreed-upon though unwritten rules of conduct. Breaking one of these rules results in gang warfare.
No. 1: Genesis 25:19-34
No. 2: Those Resurrected to Rule With Christ Will Be Like Him – rs p. 335 par. 4 – p. 336, par. 2
No. 3: Abhorrent Thing—Jehovah’s View of Idolatry and Disobedience—it-1 p. 17
Service Meeting
15 min: What Do We Learn?
Discussion of the account of Jesus with the Samaritan woman. (John 4:6-26)
A decent part where we get to discuss the Scriptures. Shame that the entire thing is slanted toward the ministry when there is so much more we could talk about here, but still, we’re reading and discussing the Scriptures directly without the “help” of a publication.
15 min: “Improving Our Skills in the Ministry—Making a Record of the Interest.”
How many times have we had a part about how to keep a good record of our calls on interested ones found in the field ministry. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with this part, but having been in the ministry for over half a century, and been on the receiving end of this type of part probably hundreds of times (I’m not using hyperbole) I know there are better ways to use our time. I have seen that brothers who are poor record keepers will continue to be so despite parts like this and those who are good ones, will be good ones. The best way to teach this is on a personal level, not from the platform. Yes, there are going to be some few who will benefit from this. One in a hundred if I’m being generous. So why not teach them personally so as not to waste the time of the other 99 and give us something truly upbuilding and Scriptural to chew on instead of “Record Keeping 101”?
Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’ the pleasure is all mine, great to hear your thoughts, and I hope that you might find something beneficial in mine. I hear, and sympathize with, your reticence to judge things as true or false, in order to not be seen as divisive. However, apart from warning us that we would be judged by the same standard with which we judge others, and hence, to be careful, He also told us to judge for ourselves what is righteous, because He came not to give peace on the earth, but DIVISION, and this, not because He loved to stir… Read more »
Alex, yes, it is a shame that the WT is covering up the heavenly hope, and in the process of providing a pre-school type basic Bible education for beginners, have now declared THAT to be all there is to it, which makes one suspect that the leadership also do not really have the heavenly hope, because how can you be quiet about something you passionately believe in, and which has fundamentally redefined who you are? With the recent ‘demotion’ of the anointed to the level of the ‘other sheep,’ and the already entrenched promotion of the Elders, although being ‘spiritual… Read more »
Alex – We are in agreement. Many Christians in their sincerity are rejecting the heavenly call. I have no doubt that Christians truly love our Father and do they best they can to serve him. I believe that religion plays a big role in how much of the “truth” we actually receive. I think of the rich young ruler who manifested an appreciation and love for the Christ but rejected the heavenly call from Christ himself because of his “personal issues” (Luke 18:18-23) There are people who reject this call because they don’t know what they are doing. Some are… Read more »
Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’ thanks for your views, and questions regarding mine; I greatly sympathize with your disdain for some of the more unscriptural interpretations taught by the WT, and it makes me cringe being found in agreement with certain of their interpretations, especially if they also are used in an unchristian and abusive way to enslave people to their mediatorship, instead of to Christ, who alone is the rightful intermediary between us and the Father. But by the same token, I have to be strictly unbiased and read Scripture the way the Spirit makes it appear to me, even if that… Read more »
I fully agree Ross. I personally have come full circle. Accepting JW theology 100%, to wanting to reject every last bit of it, trying even to convince myself that trinity was true perhaps (with no success). Some things I have refuted are clearly unbiblical. The pendulum swings us often to the other side once we learn of some falsehoods, such as the covering up of the word ‘naos’ by the WT. As a consequence, for many years I’ve held that perhaps JW are wrong about the nations, and a great multitude of them do go to heaven without being in… Read more »
I agree Alex. Or at the very least an article to begin the discussion in the comment section….
Apollos and all, I just realized that I have to assume a lot of things about everybody’s views here, even despite the common witness background we all seem to share, so it might be best to ask a few questions, as to what each individual’s views are on specific details. Can the great crowd be non-Christian, in the sense of non-anointed, with which definition I agree, by the way? Are there in Scripture ANY Christians who are not anointed, justified, sanctified as kings and priests, firstfruits, new creation, baptized into Christ’s death, members of Christ’s Body and the Bride of… Read more »
I think we all may prefer to freeze this discussion until we have a forum. It gets frustrating if your tried to make a point, but it gets lost in the walls of text. Also, I think the list of questions above could be discussed in at least 20 threads. We are discussing too many things at once. So I’ll probably retreat for now, re-digest everyone’s comments and views, and wait for the forum. That said, I think it was awesome to see some different perspectives already. Meleti, you have my email. If Ross contacted you via the contact page… Read more »
Sure. I’d be happy to help.
Ross – In the defense of what is discussed on this site… We discuss the GB’s views on the scriptures 2 times a week at the meetings for approximately 2 hours then multiply that by the 21 years I’ve been baptized and in “the truth” . My indoctrination began at “infancy” with my parents. I believe that even with their ever changing “truths ” I understand their view pretty well. I will admit that I disagree with some of the teachings. I’m not an eloquent speaker or writer by an stretch of the imagination so I am endeared by the… Read more »
May I make an observation? Excessively long comments which ask many questions tend to be counter-productive when we are trying to carry on a discussion thread. This I say to all, without singling out anyone. I’ve been guilty of this myself, but I have found from experience that it is better to stick to a few questions, compartmentalizing one aspect of the discussion to seek a resolution of that element before moving on. That way we can build on each closed topic toward a resolution. When asked a question, let us make sure we answer it before asking questions of… Read more »
I am coming into this most interesting discussion late in the game (my fault), and really I should have made notes on what everyone wrote to stand a better chance of not misrepresenting anyone’s position (an easy thing to do by mistake). But I didn’t. I just read the whole thread from scratch. And I was probably 60+ comments in by the time I thought about doing that. Rather than backtrack and go for a “who said what” approach, I’d just like to make a few of general observations, and then those who agree/disagree will no doubt respond and I… Read more »
Thank you for the nice summary Apollos. Before any consensus can be made… the GB or anyone arguing against the Great Crowd being in heaven…. You must begin with the points you have laid out …from scripture . To comment on your point one…. In addition to “dual fulfilment fatigue ” I have “antypical ” fatigue. There is no temple in the OT that is comparable to the one John sees. There is no “Great Crowd ” in the gospels that compare to what John sees. IMO John gives us alot of “freebies” in Interpreting his vision.(Revelation 5:8) We should… Read more »
Hi GodsWordIsTruth Thanks for the reply. I just want to be clear that my comment is in no way intended to be a summary of the discussion up to this point. (That would be quite an undertaking in such a short comment) I have just picked up on a few points that stood out to me from the merging and diverging views that have been put forward so far. I may have misunderstood you as regards point #1, but from what I recall I thought you and I would probably be on the same page as far as that’s concerned.… Read more »
Apollos- Let me restate …I think you have summed up my view regarding the Great Crowd being in heaven. 🙂 As to the temple arrangement we are definitely in agreement. I was trying to state that looking for antitypes for the temple,Great Crowd (and really most teachings in the NT)is where we (JW) go wrong IMHO interpreting John’s Vision(and the visions Ezekiel and Daniel ). John’s vision is made more complex than it really is when we look for ” antitypes ” in an effort to explain our doctrine . As it relates to the sanctuary based on Hebrew 9… Read more »
“They are destroyed after the “little while ” period after the 1000 year reign (an untold time period ) has ended.”
The “(an untold time period )” should follow after the “little while” in the same sentence. I am attempting to say that the ” little while” period is an untold time period and begins once the thousand years have ended.
I cannot wait for the discussion thread feature! 🙂 we are discussing subjects all over the place under this thread. Ross- You believe that the only the 144,000 make up the first ressurection. (Revelation 20:4) However you believe that ” the rest of the dead” are ressurected in a “spiritual” sense. Is that what John says? (Revelation 20:5) There is no scriptural support for spiritual ressurections of the dead. Ressurections in the OT and NT always refers to a physical restoration of life . We(JW) say that this is a “spiritual” ressurection to fit our theology. In this particular case… Read more »
Alex, I know the pain of losing typed content in the ‘reply’ window, that is why I always compose in a word document, which I update frequently, and then ‘copy and paste’ on site, so that I always have a backup draft should things go wrong. Count yourself fortunate, or unfortunate, according to your level of truth to date, and appreciation for its supremacy, to not yet having been expelled from the ‘synagogue,’ for speaking the truth with ‘one another,’ and as it is in Jesus. You say that much depends on the definition of ‘perfection’- how true, because as… Read more »
Ross, you need to not rule out Rev 20 second resurrection just because you don’t understand it or just because it doesn’t fit your theory. It is more compelling that it speaks of the end of Hades shortly after. If hades was emptied before, during the 1000 years, perhaps after 10,20 years… Why mention it to be destroyed afterward? Notice how anointed resurrected say ‘death where is your sting’, having fully escaped death. Resurrection and subsequent statement against death has a precedent. Meleti, 1) I’m in agreement with perfectA and perfectB definitions. 2) I’m still not on board with the… Read more »
You are making the assumption that a Muslim doing a good work to a Christian during the great tribulation will be granted eternal life. What proof do you have for this?
As for faith not being required for the nation of Israel, I hardly know where to begin. Hebrews 11 perhaps. Or do a word search on faith* and see how often they were condemned by God’s prophets for their lack of faith.
I believe in a CHANCE to eternal life for those who didn’t have the chance toward faith.
Israel as a nation required to keep the commandments. That is works.
Someone without special faith could keep the law commandments and be just.
Now, would someone do the works required by law without faith that it could justify them? Probably not likely. But keeping the commandments, the works, was their requirement. Faith is very intertwined of course.
Case in point: I know enough witnesses who go in service without the faith that is required of Christians: that Jesus died for our sin.
So your hypothetical Muslim would have a CHANCE for eternal life. But wouldn’t all the unrighteous, even those who did no good works toward Jesus’ brothers have a chance for eternal life by virtue of coming back in the resurrection of the unrighteous?
If the second resurrection is after the 1000 years, all on earth have to withstand satan and take a stand for Jehovah in the battle of gog and Magog.
The unrighteous will receive a resurrection of judgement. This might mean second death also. I’m not sure. If they do somehow live, it will be to die in the battle of gog and Magog. So I wouldn’t call it much of a chance.
That explains much. We are far apart on the meaning of the resurrection of the unrighteous.
Alex, I know the pain of losing typed content in the ‘reply’ window, that is why I always compose in a word document, which I update frequently, and then ‘copy and paste’ on site, so that I always have a backup draft should things go wrong. Count yourself fortunate, or unfortunate, according to your level of truth to date, and appreciation for its supremacy, to not yet having been expelled from the ‘synagogue,’ for speaking the truth with ‘one another,’ and as it is in Jesus. You say that much depends on the definition of ‘perfection’- how true, because as… Read more »
Psalms 45:16 does make provision for Jesus to be Father to countless sons, which is why he is called “eternal father” at Isaiah 9:6. However, that does not preclude some who were declared righteous like Abraham from becoming his brothers.
We have to remember that the Old Covenant was complete and only failed because the Jews broke the agreement by their unfaithfulness. Had they not done this, they would have inherited the kingdom. Therefore, faithful individuals like Moses can still be included in the full benefits of being in that covenant.
That should read… Once the 1000 years has ended they will be resurrected
Already made that point here:
“Then I wrote about Rev 20 talking about two resurrections, placing the second resurrection after the 1000 years, and saying the first resurrection is that of the holy.”
http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8633
And the confusion stems from word perfection. Ross, Meleti and I have different definitions. Ross defines it as a process toward sanctification, Meleti as sanctification, and I as the inherent condition of justification (from the start) but made permanent in sanctification.
1Co 6:15-18 ruins my prior definition of sanctification. Anointed are in more than justified state. They are in holy state. I need to review my theory.
So I need to think about consequences for all scenarios.
Let’s call it the three veils for now, using the tabernacle analogies.
First veil = from unjust to just
Second veil = from just to sanctified
Third veil = from sanctified to heavenly resurrection (temp. Definition)
I’ll try to reformulate tomorrow.
Alex- “This second resurrection is, I believe, the resurrection spoken of when the bible says: “a resurrection of the righteous (just) and unrighteous (unjust)” We are in agreement. That is my current understanding. That is Why I do not understand the belief that “the rest of the dead”, that John refers to after the First ressurection ,recieves some sort of “spiritual ressurection”. In my view that implies that the wicked can recieve a “spiritual ressurection “. (Revelation 20:5) The GB’s reasoning is that somehow John is saying that the “rest of the dead” kinda comes back to life ……but not… Read more »
I find the growing to perfection idea confusing. According to this belief where do those of the second resurrection fall.. John says that at the end of the 1000 year reign they will be resurrected. Revelation 20:5
Meleti, before answering your point above, I thought it best to acquaint myself better with your views about ‘sinlessness’ and ‘free will.’ You seem to imply that sinlessness is somehow qualitatively inferior to perfection – and I like to use the term ‘perfection,’ to simply mean ‘fit for purpose,’ as that seems to be the most apt summation of its character. So how, then, could Adam justly be condemned for simply making an ‘IMperfect’ choice, since, according to your reasoning, he was never endowed with perfection to start with? If he wasn’t made ‘fit for’ the ‘purpose’ of making correct… Read more »
Ross I made a reply also, higher in this thread.
Let me know what you think of it
http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8633
The justified condition for Israelites was dependent on continued reliance on the priestly mediation.
Likewise it will be for “gods people” on earth during the 1000 year reign.
>>I like to use the term ‘perfection,’ to simply mean ‘fit for purpose,’ That is one definition of the word. Words in English are often overloaded, so I now prefer sinless when describing this particular human condition. Jesus was also sinless, but not perfect. He was made perfect by the things he suffered. (Heb. 5:8,9) Rather than get lost in the multiple possible definitions of a word, let us consider the concept we believe the word embodies. There is perfect in the sense of ‘fit for the purpose it was made’. I’ll call that PerfectA. PerfectA can apply to anything.… Read more »
Meleti, you got an interesting point there, about those coming out of the great tribulation being called righteous ones. But so were the ‘ancient worthies,’ and yet they cannot be “made perfect” without the help of the Bride leading them to waters of life during the 1000 year reign, the same as those who survive the great tribulation. If towering figures like Moses and Abraham were looking forward to being made perfect under the administration of the Messiah, what would cause us to think that earthly sheep of the WT today are somehow more advanced on the road to perfection… Read more »
Hi Ross, You say I have an interesting point, but you do not address it? Your own line of reasoning cannot advance until you answer the question I’ve raised. To restate it: You claim the sheep of Matthew 25:31-46 must work toward perfection over the course of 1,000 years. Yet, verse 31 depicts Jesus sitting on the throne of judgment. How can he judge these sheep as righteous ones and grant them everlasting life, if the evidence on which this judgment is based is still a 1,000 years in the making? Now as to the other point you raise, you… Read more »
Meleti I’m excited you brought up these points! They do highlight some of the differences in agreement I have with Ross, and they deserve answers. So I hope I can answer your questions from my perspective on things: Quote 1: ———– “You claim the sheep of Matthew 25:31-46 must work toward perfection over the course of 1,000 years. Yet, verse 31 depicts Jesus sitting on the throne of judgment. How can he judge these sheep as righteous ones and grant them everlasting life, if the evidence on which this judgment is based is still a 1,000 years in the making?”… Read more »
Hi Alex, I concur with you that we have to define our terms carefully to ensure we are in agreement on the premise points of our discussion. Regarding your objection to the use of “perfection”, let me just say that while the term can have various meanings in English, I was using it in my comment in line with the definition Apollos expounded upon in his excellent post, “Was Adam Perfect“. Following that post, I published one to add my two cents worth to the discussion. Based on that, the anointed are truly perfect upon their resurrection (or transformation) to… Read more »
I just lost my 15 paragraph reply Meleti by some browser quirk. How sad 🙁 I don’t have the time to repeat everything I wrote, so Ill try to summarize what I had so far. First I was relating my experiences that I am shut down cold when trying to have engaging scriptural discussions, even have been punished for asking elders on a shepherding call a valid biblical question despite re-affirmation of accepting the FDS. Then i expressed gratitude for what we enjoy here, Proverbs 27: 17 As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Then I agreed “perfection”… Read more »
So your solution was to replace it with a 30 paragraph reply? 🙂
If I’m understanding you correctly, there are three resurrections:
1) The “first resurrection” to heavenly life at or just before the start of the 1,000 year reign.
2) The earthly resurrection of the righteous, at or during the 1,000 year reign.
3) The earthly resurrection of the unrighteous after the 1,000 year reign has ended.
Is that accurate?
2+3 would be the same resurrection, both after the 1000 years.
Thus the righteous wake up in Adam-like state in a paradise earth.
The resurrection of the unjust either straight to Gehenna, or not. I’m not sure about that yet. What about Adam, judas, sodom Gomorrah? Another topic…
Meleti-
“Paul is here talking about anointed Christians who, upon their resurrection, will be instantly accorded perfection, sinlessness, and immortality, all because they are declared righteous by Jehovah. There is no 1,000 year probation period for them; no working toward perfection as if it were something that could be attained by dint of earnest effort…”
I agree with you . It appears that our teaching of the 1000 year reign is the JW version of the Catholic Church’s purgatory teaching .
Alex, as to God’s justice, or righteousness, we have to remember that this is the crux of Christianity, the universal issue we are running this social experiment here on earth over, for the past 6000 years. There are two fundamental aspects to justice: One might be termed ‘natural justice,’ or ‘contractual justice,’ as in the management of bilateral relationships, and the other aspect is unilateral, sovereign bestowal of blessing or gifts on the basis of free and voluntary giving and receiving. To illustrate: There is no obligation on God’s part to create any one person, and no person has a… Read more »
Alex, on the ‘When does the first resurrection occur’ thread, you just now asked Meleti the following question, which I would like to address here, in order to keep things on the ‘same page,’ so to speak, QUOTE: “Where does Matthew talk about Armageddon? Only mention is the GT. Can you prove the judgement over the goats by Jesus is the same as Armageddon? UNQUOTE Now, that is an interesting question, but I think that 2Thes.1 can help us in this regard, because Paul says there that the great tribulation on us will at a certain point be turned against… Read more »
To clarify my position on Abraham. I did not say he “will” go to heaven. It does not follow from my argument. I did say it “might be possible” that Abraham could receive “the first resurrection” from the perspective of Divine justice. So I believe if Jehovah willed him to receive it, he could, even outside of the new covenant. There are other factors at play, which might exclude him from receiving this lot. For example, what happens with the justified great crowd that is also faithful at the battle of Gog and Magog? They will also qualify from the… Read more »
He Meleti, thanks for raising your concerns, I will try to address some of them: Revelation 5 tells us about ‘persons’ having been ‘bought’ out of ‘every tribe, tongue, people and nation’ to form a kingdom of kings and priests over those ‘on earth.’ Then, in Revelation 14, we see the 144000 as being ‘bought’ from ‘the earth’ and from among ‘mankind,’ which means that these priests were once ‘of the earth,’ the same ‘earth’ that is composed of ‘every tribe, tongue, people and nation,’ over which they will rule as priests and kings, which tells us that all those… Read more »
I’m assuming that you are linking the Great Crowd to the sheep in the Sheep and Goats parable. I say that because of the link you make to them as doing good to Jesus’ brothers unknowingly. If I have drawn the right conclusion, then your mention that they will need to be perfected over the course of 1,000 years seems to be in conflict with that Jesus says about the sheep in that parable. You see, the goats go off to everlasting cutting-off and the sheep to everlasting life. The sheep are termed “righteous ones”. (Mat. 25:31-46) If God judges… Read more »
I think your on track to understanding our idea!
Notice how the sheep are blessed as a group.
Like the nation Israel before, as long as they benefit from the priestly sacrifice they are justified before Jehovah. THIS is why there is so much emphasis all over the bible on the tent or temple being in their midst.
The consequence of rejecting this arrangement deserves the second death, even if they were previously in a justified position with eternal life in sight.
Alex, OK, I just finished re-reading your comments, which had inspired my previous posts, to see if I had overlooked anything in them, because you have so many details in agreement with the way I see things, that they cannot but be derived from our common Source. I assume that your reference to the ‘last trumpet’ implies you are talking about the one in Matthew 24:31, immediately after the end of the great tribulation, when the ‘harpazo’ is taking place, because those sleeping in Jesus will have to wait until then, in order to be caught up TOGETHER WITH us,… Read more »
Hi Ross, About Divine Justice. Basically I believe in fairness, that everyone should get the same treatment. The measuring rule for eternal life is this: “Prove loyalty under justified condition.” The exception is direct and will-full persecution or opposition to God, his spirit, his purpose, anointed. In this case it is “fair” enough to assume such person, even when justified, would not prove loyal. Here I will demonstrate how I believe Jehovah’s justice operates EQUALLY for all : 1. Adam was created in justified condition. This allows him to approach God. 2. Adam was NOT granted eternal life by default.… Read more »
I was cringing in the meeting yesterday during the second talk between the two sisters. An older sister playing bible student claimed she had the heavenly hope and then a first time sister talked her out of it with scripture, and of course the entire congregation clapped..
In Need of Grace, This to me sums up one of the most fundamental problems with our message. We are trained to talk people out of the New Testament Christian hope. Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in. (Matt 23:13) Even if the Rutherford “two Christian hopes” doctrine was real, what right would we have to talk people out of one hope or the other? At best we should only… Read more »
Exactly Apollos Ever since I accepted the truth about my sonship and Jehovah as my Heavenly Dad right now and not in a distant future, I feel immensely happy about this and it saddens me that we have all been conditioned otherwise. I mustered up the courage this week to speak to an elder about this telling him my resolve I would parttake. He was actually really happy for me. I asked him if he ever felt this way and he admitted he often thought about it. He said he sometimes thought we might be conditioned to believe one hope… Read more »
Currently, you can’t. We’re going to try to give enhanced editing features to everyone.
Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’ yes, those of the first resurrection would be the ‘144000,’ which number could be literal, or symbolic, or both. The ‘great crowd’ in Revelation 19 is in Heaven, but cannot be identical with the ‘great crowd’ in chapter 7 because they praise Jah for just having avenged the blood of His slaves at the hand of the great harlot, which happens BEFORE the battle of Armageddon, through which the ‘great crowd’ of chapter 7 has not yet passed at that point; hence the ‘great crowd’ in chapter 19 can only be a crowd of angels, so don’t be… Read more »
You are presupposing that the great tribulation is Armageddon. There are reasons to suppose that it comes before. Mat. 24:29 for instance. Plus the fact that the judgment comes before Armageddon. If the GT is the destruction of Babylon the great, then in the interval between its end and Armageddon’s start you have those who pass through the GT, are judged worthy, and are taken to heaven. The 144,000 could refer symbolically to all resurrected Christians while the great crowd refers to those alive at the time of the great tribulation. These ones differ from the rest in that they… Read more »
Meleti, the anointed don’t get resurrected until after the tribulation, but are caught up in the clouds together with the ones of the generation who did not pass away. (1 Thess 4) The bible says they go up together. There is a single body of sealed ones. In fact, check Matthew 24:31 and compare with Rev 7:1. Make a study on the last trumpet, and you will see what I mean. The society only says anointed are in heaven already because they believe the coming was around 1914. It’s still in the future…. On a side note, I’m contemplating that… Read more »
I concur. I wrote a post on it a couple of years back.
Ross- What scripture can we use to support that John is saying that the Great crowd that he’s been talking about all along are now the angels in 19:1,2? Unless John is trying to be incredibly confusing when explaining what he saw in this vision … He mentions seeing all different kinds of spirit creatures/beings throughout Revelation and in 7:11 he tells us that he saw angels too. So the angels, who are in heaven, can also be referred to as the Great Crowd? John does not say that. The Elder already told us who the great crowd are…they are… Read more »
Hi AFRICAINE,
that is an excellent explanation of what is likely to have
been going on behind the scenes in the case of Jacob
and Esau, and a lot better argued than my comment
at the start of this thread; well spotted, and thanks for
sharing it here.
Hi Alex, you said that. QUOTE: “Perhaps it comes as a shock to us to consider this [that ‘peoples’ and ‘nations’ will survive Armageddon], after all we have been taught Jehovah is coming to destroy the nations. But Jehovah knows what he is doing and we need to have confidence in our king Jesus.” UNQUOTE That is a good point, and shows that there will be a considerable minority of people from all nations who will not be following the incoming NWO beast with admiration, just as Zechariah also says: “And it must occur [that], as regards everyone who is… Read more »
Hi Alex, I agree with you on there being the ‘one hope’ in which Christians are saved, which view then calls into question that those who have been made to hope in an earthly future are somehow saved in it. Now while I agree that it is regrettable and quite telling of those shutting up Heaven for others as being indicative of not actually wanting to enter this hope themselves, that nevertheless, anybody truly anointed by God’s Spirit, will not be dissuaded by flesh and blood from hearing and accepting the call of God, and following the Lamb no matter… Read more »
Ross I made an extensive post:
http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8545
Could you review it carefully and tell me what you think?
Also I mentioned Thomas in this post:
http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8527
I’d like to know if we have differences or are on the same thought.
I haven’t met others yet who see it ‘exactly’ this way. It’s a pretty novel consideration as far as I know, because I never saw anyone make the case and I try to read everything I can.
Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’ thanks for explaining your position a little more; I also should explain the basis for my conclusions a bit better, so you can see where I am coming from. You mention the connection that the abuse by the GB of the ‘rank and file’ has to its view of the ‘two hope’ interpretation of Scripture, although, whatever the bad results are to the ‘earthly sheep,’ pales into insignificance when compared to the indignities inflicted by the GB through the ‘earthly class elders’ upon, what is supposed to be, their OWN spiritual brothers of the 12000 odd anointed who,… Read more »
Ross- I appreciate your response and respect your view. However , I cannot see the scriptures the way that you do. So for clarity…you believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven? John says that those in the first resurrection will rule as kings and priests at Reve 20:4-6.Is the total of those in the first resurrection around 144,000?I am most interested in your explanation of Revelation 19:1…….
GodswordisTruth,
144k may be symbolic..
Did you see the extensive response I made here
http://meletivivlon.com/2014/02/09/midweek-meeting-comments-feb-10-2014/#comment-8545
I really would enjoy some feedback
How do you post links to comments made on this site? I can’t figure that out…
I will take a look at your comment…I agree that the 144,000 could be symbolic.
Of course the account of Jacob and Esau appears to be so pre-determined. Maybe someone could assist me on that score.
Cain was the firstborn yet Abel proved righteous and had Jehovah’s favor. Esau was the firstborn and yet Jacob had Jehovah’s favor. Jacob had the blessing of the firstborn by spiritual merit, and was renamed Israel. As a nation, Israel was the firstborn but – by large – squandered their inheritance. Who ALWAYS gained Jehovah’s favor? Spiritual first fruits. Do we cherish our spiritual inheritance in heaven, or are we like Esau and mind the things of the flesh? Where our treasure is, our heart will be. (Let the reader use discernment). Luther, Lectures on Galatians, 1535. [9] “Upon the… Read more »
Jacob vs Esau Source: http://ohr.edu/5327 First of all, while Esau had the potential to be a very righteous person, he wantonly chose a path of wickedness, and cunningly deceived Isaac into thinking he was the person that his father wanted him to be, and that he could have become if he wanted. But instead, according to traditional sources, he was a glutton, a murderer and an adulterer who “trapped his father with his mouth” by presenting himself as if he meticulously observed Isaac’s ways. This is why Isaac thought to bestow the blessing upon Esau. But Rebecca, exemplifying what the… Read more »
Hi Ross , I hope that you can follow my thoughts…. I am trying to become better at expressing them through writing .I am still growing in the “truth” so I am not married to any one concept. I read your comment again and this stood out “Seeing that there is already a heavenly hope, why do we need to invent another one, for those who don’t ‘make it,’ as if the identity of the adopted sons of God was not already foreordained according to the good pleasure of God’s will in Christ Jesus, but instead depended upon the performance… Read more »
There are indeed people who will live on earth, but is it correct to strive toward this as our goal? Even so arrogantly (or ignorantly, depends who) call it “hope” when there is but one hope? Exercise 1: Ephesians 4:4-5, modified from original to fit the two-hope doctrine: There are [two] bodies and one Spirit, just as you were called to [one of the two] hopes when you were called; one Lord, [two] faiths, [two] baptisms; Two bodies: the (1) little flock and (2) other sheep Two hopes: the (1) heavenly and the (2) earthly Two faiths: (1) Jesus died… Read more »
Then again, if we simplify it through the principle of Occam’s razor: Paul summed it up this way (1 Corinthians 2:14, 15) “But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man.”
Thank you for your awesome comment Alex. I follow your reasoning but I am conflicted (indoctrination maybe?) My question is … If I do not die and survive Armageddon how am I getting to heaven? Rapture? The “hope” we so frequently refer to is really the resurrection hope right ? IMO the OT is vague about life after death or resurrection to the earth. I am coming around to a belief that there is no scriptural basis for JW’s to separate those from the Old Covenant from New Covenant .(Matthew 8:11.12 Hebrews 11:13-16; compare Hebrews 11:8-10; Hebrews 12:22, 23 and… Read more »
You must be willing (emphasis on willing) to die in the flesh, your body is a sacrificial vessel. The flesh is like a seed, that, when the time is right, dies, and is changed into a plant. Jehovah promises a new body, a spirit body. I recommend you read 1 Co 15 read the whole chapter. 1 Co 15:51, 52 (NWT) Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,… Read more »
Alex- I appreciate the spiritual readjustment. I am not afraid of death. I would lay down my life for my brother. However, I do not want to die and I do not necessarily want to go to Heaven. I do admit my desire may be a result of indoctrination. Yet, I have to fully appreciate the gift Christ has offered me at great cost. I haven’t looked at that chapter in 1 Corinthians since my “awakening”. I believe we may differ theologically on the Great Crowd‘s location. However we are in agreement that there is a group of God’s people… Read more »
As vigorously as I defended the one hope for Christians,mother true Good news for today, I haven’t yet given Scriptural backing for my current understanding on the Great Crowd. I’m about to give one line of argumentation, but I actually have more, perhaps another day. First, it needs to be observed that this group is different from the 144k, which is also called the bride of Christ in revelation. The members of this bride are also called living stones of the temple. 1 Peter 2:4-6 (NIV) As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God… Read more »
Just to clarify some points you make. The phrase, “Bride of Christ”, doesn’t appear in the Bible, but the concept does. We have: (Revelation 21:2) . . .I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:9-11) . . .“Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God.. . .… Read more »
1) I’d think its a given who the bride of Christ is, but I’ll make an effort to substantiate it in a follow up post .. Tomorrow I hope. 2) “Additionally, how do you know the Great Crowd is different from the 144,000?” – It follows from the verse saying the great crowd could not be numbered, the 144k are by their nature, numbered. Even in symbolic sense you wouldn’t contradict your symbolism in the same chapter of the bible. 3) “The 144k may be a subset of the GC” – In my post I see the CG as the… Read more »
A symbolic number like 144,000 doesn’t imply a fixed number. 12 and multiples thereof refer to divinely organized governmental arrangements. Using 144,000 instead of say, 144, could show that there are a great many individuals involved. But let’s say for argument’s sake that it does refer to an unknown, but fixed number. Let’s say 10 million–purely for the sake of argument. Now let’s say the great crowd is a subset of the 10 million. The 10 million are all the humans that make up the new Jerusalem including those who will not die, but be transformed. The great crowd are… Read more »
Alex- We agree that there is an earthly group and a heavenly group. Rutherford taught that there is an earthly group.He also taught that the earthly group is “the great crowd”.However, John sees the Great crowd in heaven. So the earthly group can’t be the Great Crowd. If there is a scripture linking the “great crowd” John saw to the earth in any way… I have yet to read it. I understand your scriptural points on everything else…. I cannot get past this hurdle. A spirit being from the heavens invited John to heaven saying “Come up here, and I… Read more »
Rev 17 does not say who the great crowd is, it uses the unquantified “a great multitude”, meaning it could be whatever great multitude of bodies you want it to be: Rev 17:1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, You can’t use this to prove a thing…I could even say this talks about ant colonies. Then you respond, no because there is no ant colony in heaven! And I will respond: neither are the nations promised a heavenly hope in… Read more »
In the house of my Father there are many abodes. . .(John 14:2)
Rev 17:1 “After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God….You can’t use this to prove a thing…I could even say this talks about ant colonies. If we can’t call them ant colonies we can’t call them angels either.( Revelation 19:1, 2) “There was also “a” great crowd following Jesus for his famous speeches, and they were on earth with Jesus. You’ll agree this verse proves nothing on its own”. Matthew was not employing symbolic language nor is he prophesying… Read more »
I think we can agree that:
– the great crowd will appear out of the great tribulation
– the great tribulation has not started yet
– there is only one hope, one gospel, one baptism, one calling at this time
– the great crowd will be part of Jahs people and receive ‘tent’ blessings
-the great crowd will appear out of the great tribulation – the great tribulation has not started yet – there is only one hope, one gospel, one baptism, one calling at this time – the great crowd will be part of Jahs people and receive ‘tent’ blessings My view slightly differs. (the caps are for emphasis..I can’t italicize the words) -The great crowd will COME out of the great tribulation – The great tribulation MAY HAVE ALREADY started following the death of the Apostles -There is one hope ,one gospel , one baptism and one calling at this time –… Read more »
“ALL of His people will receive ‘tent “ like blessings under a future covenant of God”
This sentence is worded awkwardly.
What I am trying to express is that eventually ALL of God’s people (The Heavenly group and the Earthly group) will have benefited from the ‘tent “ like blessings under a lasting ( and final) covenant of God. ( the heavenly group at one point lived on earth and was a part of “mankind” so the term “ mankind” is inclusive of both groups.)
Hi ‘GodsWordIsTruth,’ please refute, if you can, the scriptural reasons I gave in my previous post, about the great crowd being an earthly class. Well, in Revelation 7, we see the great crowd only AFTER the sealing of the 144000, and then only AFTER coming out of the great tribulation. From this one could surmise that they are the bulk of the ‘twelve tribes of Israel,’ from among whom the 144000 are sealed. Although Scripture does not directly say so, this interpretation would actually fit in well with Jesus’ promise that the 144000 would sit on twelve thrones, judging the… Read more »
Hi Ross Thanks for your reply :)I have read your post. Your reply discusses a wide range of what I believe to be different subjects. Before I can begin “refuting ” points… I believe that it’s best that you get an idea of what my basic views are on this subject. My thoughts about the identity of the 144,000 is steadily forming. I go back and forth between them being the remnant of faithful believing Jews(Romans 11 I believed strongly implies it)or the first century Christians.(Gentiles and Jews) I believe that all Christians are “anointed” by God spirit .Ultimately Jehovah… Read more »
“Large crowd ” should read “great crowd “
(This is actually should have been included in the comment above.. On a mobile device.. I’m not sure why my comment spilt ) When I read that scripture in Revelation 21:3,4 I see it as a beautiful way of concluding the Bible …. there’s a happy ending 🙂 That scripture tells us that God will spread his tent over mankind and reside with them. I do not believe that God will literally reside with mankind. Instead the relationship that Adam had with God will be restored to mankind. He will reside with mankind as he did with Adam. The scripture… Read more »
“In both accounts [Re.7:14-17; 21:2-4] we have God wiping
out the tears of the ‘great crowd’ and ‘mankind,’ and guiding
them [as ‘the nations’ 22:2] to fountains of water of life,
something that can only apply to those living here on earth”
Why can this only apply to those living on the earth? ” John says at Reve 22: 1 ” Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.” The throne is in heaven…..
The great crowd are said to be in God’s temple before His throne, which makes it appear like they are in Heaven, if it weren’t for the detail that God actually spreads His tent over them and guides them to fountains of waters of life. Are we supposed to imagine God pitching a tent there in front of His throne in Heaven? Do you pitch a tent in your living room, in order to dwell there? Is not a tent used to dwell for a short period of time away from home? Would not the earth provide a fine picnic… Read more »
Hi Ross, Besides the reasons I have stated above… I cannot read revelations and put the great crowd on the earth. Is there a scripture that you believe puts the great crowd on the earth? After reading your comment above…. How would you explain the following scriptures: Revelation 7:3,4 “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: The… Read more »
“I think Strong is right in regards to Herod’s temple, but should prophecy be modeled after Herod’s man-made temple or the desert tent Jehovah himself gave the perfect instructions for?” My thoughts exactly Alex. I was looking for a quick answer when reviewing the Reasoning book part, instead I have more questions. “If the temple came to earth then people on earth could be in the naos?” The GB does not attempt to explain (as far as I have researched) how the courtyard of this “temple” or “throne” is on the earth. However, in their defense I lost my Revelation… Read more »
I have commented on this site before that I believe the scriptures support that the Great crowd are in heaven . In reading the Reasoning book’s part this week, my attention was diverted to the section “See also pages 162-168, under the heading “Heaven.” The Reasoning book under that section states “The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great… Read more »
This link will take you to several Bible commentaries that discuss the Temple “naos” of Rev. 7:15. http://biblehub.com/greek/3485.htm In short, the definition is “a temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides.” According to Strong’s NT: ναός, ναοῦ, ὁ (ναίω to dwell), the Sept. for הֵיכָל, used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies (in classical Greek used of the sanctuary or cell of a temple, where the image of the god was placed, called also δόμος, σηκός, which… Read more »
Thanks Meleti! I did not even realize that Bible Hub had a spot for that ….. In that Watchtower 1980 Aug 15 pp.14-16 The “Great Crowd” Renders Sacred Service Where? It says: ”The question revolves around that original Greek word that is variously translated as “tent,” “temple” and “sanctuary.” For example, in the Bible account of where Jesus Christ drove the money changers and merchantmen out of Herod’s temple, the original Greek word used is na.os’. There we read: “Jesus answered, ‘Destroy this sanctuary [na.os’], and in three days I will raise it up’. The Jews replied, ‘It has taken… Read more »
I think you’re misreading the rendering in the RNWT which reads: (Revelation 7:15) . . .That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They are correctly rendering naos as temple. The problem is that when interpreting the verse, they do not want to consider this to be the inner chamber, the holy of holies where the throne of God is, because that places the great crowd where we believe only the anointed can be.… Read more »
I did misread it…. that makes alot more sense. I am going to use your comment to dig deeper.
Perhaps a very bad example is how falsified “missing link” fossils don’t necessarily disprove evolution. Likewise falsified evidence concerning naos / hieron in the magazines doesn’t necessarily disprove a naos on earth. However the burden of proof is on the GB, and I don’t think they provided a good reason for the GC on earth doctrine yet. I think I have uncovered an interesting argument, but it needs a more elaborating than a comment allows, so I will try to write it as an article and submit it. Then I’ll be happy even if the argument is completely refuted, so… Read more »
If you think of Great Crowd as non-priest Levites versus the priestly anointed, both would have their robes white and both would serve alongside each other in the courtyard. Russell pointed out in “tabernacles, shadow of greater sacrifice”, that this courtyard of copper instruments represented earth, while the holy place represented the heavenly hope, and the most holy the heavenly presence near Jah. One possibility I have entertained is similar to Russell, that there is no GC today, so for now the call goes out only for the greater privilege of priest, but those who fall short yet hold up… Read more »
Revelation 21:3
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
If the temple came to earth then people on earth could be in the naos?
I have additional arguments about NAOS in context of the Strong NT. I think Strong is right in regards to Herod’s temple, but should prophecy be modeled after Herod’s man-made temple or the desert tent Jehovah himself gave the perfect instructions for? I will write up an argument for the latter.
The w02 5/1 QfR does address this point, showing that things like the Court of the Gentiles and the Court of the Women of Herod’s temple could rightly be discarded in any heavenly fulfillment.
I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with.
Yes. The fact that Revelation 7 says that 12,000 are taken out of each tribe, suggest a smaller number being subtracted from a greater number. What the total number is isn’t stated, but could very well apply to a larger, non-priestly heavenly class.
REV 11:1-2- 11 And a reed like a rod*+ was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city+ underfoot for 42 months.+. These verses state that there is a temple sanctuary and an outer courtyard. God seems to be concerned only with the worshipers and the sanctuary. (Again, John says the… Read more »
“This opens up a potential avenue for reconciling both ends of doctrinal spectrum” I am very interested in both sides. I am particularly interested in the argument that the GC is on the earth. That is the GB’s view and I don’t believe that they have explained it well. When attempting to find a “antitype” comparison for God’s spiritual temple in Revelation, the GB acknowledges in the 2002 WT that upon “ further research” Herod’s temple is a bad example. According to the article they believe that Solomon’s temple is a better comparison. Revelation however does not speak of an… Read more »
Hi Meleti, You wrote, “If you are troubled by Jacob’s willingness to lie and deceive so as to rob his brother of his father’s blessing, remember that these men were without law.” I’ve often used this in my assessment of the earlier patriarchs who were more driven by the continuance of the promised seed than the code of honesty or honour, the lack of which shocks the more politically correct among us today. The fact is, it was Rebecca who set up the deception. And Isaac just didn’t seem up to it. Already we’ve seen Lot offer his daughters than… Read more »
Perhaps Lot was saved on the basis of his friendship to Abraham, Abraham having shown willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice. Likewise, worse than Lot can be saved on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ.
Also Lot had shown obedience to the angel messengers of Jehovah at the time it mattered for his salvation. Likewise those honest hearted who repent in the GT may be found righteous. The three angels were sent to investigate.
Sorry, forgot to give my name for the above post, lol
Isn’t it interesting to note an uncanny parallel in how God’s pre-Christian tutor arrangement, just like its modern counterpart the WT, has failed signally in its assigned task of leading people to Christ, but instead has shut up the kingdom of the Heavens before its charges, not only not entering in themselves, but also not permitting those on their way in to go in, on pain of being expelled from God’s nominal community – zealously traversing sea and dry land to make proselytes subject for Gehenna twice as much so as themselves, while their fellow tutor systems in the rest… Read more »