He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God? – Micah 6:8
According to the Insight book, Modesty is “an awareness of one’s limitations; also chastity or personal purity. The Hebrew root verb tsa·naʽ′ is rendered “be modest” in Micah 6:8, its only occurrence. The related adjective tsa·nu′aʽ (modest) occurs in Proverbs 11:2, where it is contrasted with presumptuousness.”[1]
The fact that tsana is contrasted with presumptuousness at Proverbs 11:2 indicates that this awareness of one’s limitations is not confined to the boundaries imposed by our human nature, but also those imposed by God. To be modest in walking with God is to recognize our place before Him. It means keeping in step with Him, recognizing that running ahead is as bad as falling behind. In accordance with the authority which God has granted us, we should use it to the fullest potential without either abusing it or failing to use it when action is called for. The person who says, “I can’t do that” when he can is just as immodest as the one who says “I can do that” when he can’t.
Applying Micah 6:8
One of the most controversial practices of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses is that of disfellowshipping. In discussing the various aspects of this policy, I came to realize that the simple requirements of Jehovah laid down in Micah 6:8 for all his subjects could be used to throw much light on the subject. In this, the third installment,[2] I was planning on reviewing in detail the policies and practices of our judicial system to see if and how they conform to Scripture. The result was a very negative article because frankly, they don’t. It does little good to simply criticise, to highlight the imperfections in another, unless you are also willing to offer up a solution. Yet in this matter, it is not for me to provide a solution. That would be most immodest, because the solution has always been there, right in God’s word. All that is required is for us to see it. However, that may not be as easy at is sounds.
Avoiding Bias
The motto of this site is “Striving for unbiased Bible research”. This is no small goal. Bias is very difficult to eradicate. It comes in various disguises: Prejudice, preconceptions, traditions, even personal preference. It is hard to avoid the trap Peter referred to of believing what we want to believe rather than what is in front of our eyes.[3] As I researched this topic, I found that even when I thought I had eliminated these negative influences, I found them creeping back in. To be honest, I cannot even now be sure I’m completely free of them, but it is my hope that you, gentle reader, will help me to identify any that survived my purge.
Disfellowshipping and Christian Modesty
The words “disfellowshipping” and “disassociation” do not appear in the Bible. For that matter, neither do related words used by other Christian denominations such as “excommunication”, “shunning”, “ostracising” and “expelling”. Nevertheless, there is direction in the Christian Scriptures intended to protect the congregation and the individual Christian from a corrupting influence.
As it pertains to this subject, if we are “to be modest in walking with our God”, we have to know where the limits are. These are not only limits which Jehovah—or more precisely for the Christian—which Jesus has placed via his legal instructions, but also limits imposed by the nature of imperfect humankind.
We know that men should not rule men, for it does not belong to man “even to direct his step.”[4] Likewise, we cannot see into the heart of a man so as to judge his motivation. All we are really capable of judging are the actions of an individual and even there we must tread carefully so as not to misjudge and sin ourselves.
Jesus would not set us up to fail. Therefore, any instruction he gives us on this topic would have to fall within our grasp.
Categories of Sin
Before we get into the nitty-gritty, let it be understood that we are going to be dealing with three distinct categories of sin. The proof of this will be provided as we go along, but for now let’s establish that there are sins of a personal nature that don’t lead to disfellowshipping; sins which are more serious and may lead to disfellowshipping; and finally, sins which are criminal, that is sins where Caesar gets involved.
Disfellowshipping—Handling Sins of a Criminal Nature
Let us handle this one up front, since it could cloud the rest of our discussion if we don’t get it out of the way up first.
(Romans 13:1-4) . . .Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.
There are some sins which the congregation is not fully equipped to handle. Murder, rape, and child abuse are examples of sinful conduct that is criminal in nature and therefore goes beyond our limitations; beyond what we can fully handle. To deal with such things exclusively within the congregation framework would not be walking modestly with our God. To hide such sins from the superior authorities would be to show a disregard for those whom Jehovah has placed as his ministers for expressing wrath against evildoers. If we ignore the authorities God himself has placed, we are putting ourselves above God’s arrangement. Can anything good come of disobeying God in this way?
As we are about to see, Jesus directs the congregation on how to deal with sinners in its midst, whether we are speaking of a single incident or a long term practice. So even the sin of child abuse must be dealt with congregationally. However, we must first recognize the aforementioned principle and hand the man over to the authorities as well. We are not the only Christian denomination that has tried to hide its dirty laundry from the world. In our case, we would reason that to reveal these things would bring reproach on the name of Jehovah. However, there is no excuse for disobedience to God. Even assuming our intentions were good—and I’m not arguing they were—there is no justification for failing to walk with God in modesty by obeying his direction.
There is abundant evidence that this policy of ours has been a disaster, and we are now beginning to reap what we have sown. God is not one to be mocked.[5] When Jesus gives us a command and we disobey, we cannot expect things to turn out well, no matter how we have tried to justify our disobedience.
Disfellowshipping—Handling Sins of a Personal Nature
Now that we’ve cleared the air on how to deal with the most atrocious of sinners, let’s move to the other end of the spectrum.
(Luke 17:3, 4) Pay attention to yourselves. If your brother commits a sin, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4 Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
It is obvious that Jesus is talking here about sins of a personal and relatively minor nature. It would be ridiculous to include the sin of, say, rape, in this scenario. Notice also that there are only two options: Either you forgive your brother or you do not. The criteria for forgiveness is an expression of repentance. So you can and should rebuke the one who has sinned. Either he then repents—not to God, but to you, indicating against whom the sin was committed—in which case you must forgive him; or he doesn’t repent, in which case you have no obligation to forgive him at all. This bears repeating because I have often had brothers and sisters approach me because they have found it hard to forgive some transgression committed against them by another. Yet, they have been led to believe through our publications and from the platform that we must forgive all slights and transgressions if we are to imitate the Christ. Notice however that the forgiveness he commands us to grant is conditional on repentance. No repentance; no forgiveness.
(This isn’t to say that we cannot forgive another even if there is no spoken expression of repentance. Repentance can be expressed in various ways. It is up to each to decide. Of course, a lack of repentance doesn’t give us the right to bear a grudge. Love covers a multitude of sins.[6] Forgiveness wipes the slate clean.[7] In this, as in everything, there must be balance.)
Notice also that no mention is made of escalating this process beyond the personal. The congregation does not get involved, nor does anyone else for that matter. These are sins of a minor and personal nature. After all, a man who commits fornication seven times a day would definitely qualify to be called a fornicator, and we are told at 1 Corinthians 5:11 to quit mixing in company with such a man.
Now let’s look at the other scriptures that touch on the matter of disfellowshipping. (Given the extensive catalogue of rules and regulation we have built up over the years to cover all things judicial, it may surprise you to see just how little the Bible has to say on the subject.)
Disfellowshipping—Handling More Serious Personal Sins
We have many Letters to Bodies of Elders from the Governing Body, as well as numerous Watchtower articles and whole chapters in the Shepherd the Flock of God book which lay down the rules and regulations governing our organizational system of jurisprudence. How odd then to learn that the only formalized procedural process for dealing with sin in the Christian congregation was expressed by Jesus in just three short verses.
(Matthew 18:15-17) “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.
What Jesus is referring to are sins of a personal nature, though obviously these are sins which are a step up in gravity from those he spoke of at Luke 17:3, 4, because these can end with a disfellowshipping.
In this rendering, Jesus gives no indication that the sin referred to is personal in nature. So one could arrive at the conclusion that this is how one deals with all sin in the congregation. However, this is one of many examples where the translators of the NWT have been sloppy. The interlinear rendering of this passage clearly shows that the sin is committed “against you”. So we are talking about sins like slander, stealing, fraud, etc.
Jesus tells us to deal with the matter privately in the first attempt. However, if that fails, one or two individuals (witnesses) are brought in to bolster the appeal for the offender to see reason and repent. If the second attempt fails, then does Jesus tell us to take the matter before a committee of three? Does he tell us to engage in a secret session? No, he tells us to take the matter before the congregation. Like a public trial for slander, stealing, or fraud, this final stage is public. The whole congregation gets involved. This makes sense, because it is the whole congregation which must engage in dealing with the man as a tax collector or man of the nations. How can they conscientiously do so—throw the first stone, as it were—without knowing why?
At this stage we find the first major departure between what the Bible says and what we practice as Jehovah’s Witnesses. At stage 3, the offended individual is instructed to go to one of the elders, assuming that neither of the other witnesses used in stage 2 are elders. The elder he contacts will talk with the Coordinator of the Body of Elders (COBE) who will call an elders meeting to appoint a committee. Often, at these elders meetings, the nature of the sin is not revealed even to the elders, or if it is revealed, it is done only in the most general of terms. We do this so as to protect the confidentiality of all involved. Only the three elders appointed to judge the case will know all the details.
Jesus says nothing about some alleged need to protect the confidentiality of the offender or the offended. He says nothing about going to the older men only, nor does he mention the appointment of a committee of three. There is no precedent in Scripture, neither under the Jewish judicial system nor in the history of the first century congregation to support our practice of secret committees meeting in secret session to handle judicial matters. What Jesus said was to take the matter before the congregation. Anything else is “going beyond the things that are written”.[8]
Disfellowshipping—Handling General Sins
I have used the inadequate term, “general sins”, to encompass those sins which are not criminal in nature but rise above the personal, such as idolatry, spiritism, drunkenness and fornication. Excluded from this group are sins related to apostasy for reasons we shall soon see.
Given that Jesus gave his disciples a precise step-by-step procedure to follow in dealing with sins of a personal nature, one would think that he would have also laid out a procedure to follow in the case of general sins. Our highly structured organizational mindset begs for such a judicial procedure to be spelled out for us. Alas, there is none, and its absence is most telling.
There is really only one account in the Christian Greek Scriptures of a judicial process in any way similar to what we practice today. In the ancient city of Corinth, there was a Christian who was fornicating in a way that was so notorious even the pagans were shocked. In the first letter to the Corinthians Paul instructed them to “remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.” Then, when the man exhibited a change of heart some months later, Paul exhorted the brothers to welcome him back for fear that he might be swallowed up by Satan.[9]
Almost everything that we need to know about the judicial procedure within the Christian congregation can be found in this one account. We will learn:
- What qualifies as a disfellowshipping offence?
- How are we to treat the sinner?
- Who determines if a sinner is to be disfellowshipped?
- Who determines if a sinner is to be reinstated?
The answer to these four questions can be found in these few verses:
(1 Corinthians 5:9-11) In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.
(2 Corinthians 2:6) This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man…
What Qualifies As a Disfellowshipping Offense?
Fornicators, idolaters, revilers, drunkards, extortioners…this is hardly an exhaustive list but there is a commonality here. He is not describing sins, but sinners. For example, we all have lied at some time, but does that qualify us to be called liars? To put it another way, if I play the occasional game of golf or baseball, does that make me a sportsman? If a man gets drunk on one or two occasions, would we call him an alcoholic.
Paul’s list of actionable sins would certainly include the works of the flesh which he listed to the Galatians:
(Galatians 5:19-21) . . .Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
Again, notice that he uses the plural. Even the mass nouns are expressed in such a way as to indicate a course of action or a state of being rather than isolated incidents of sin.
Let us leave it at that for now since this understanding is crucial in answering the other questions under consideration.
How Are We to Treat the Sinner?
The Greek word the NWT translates with the phrase “stop keeping company” is a compound verb, made up of three words: sun, ana, mignuni; literally, “to mix up with”. If you simply drop black paint in a can of white without mixing it thoroughly, would you expect it to turn grey? Likewise, to carry on a casual conversation with someone is hardly the same as mixing in company with him. The question is, where do you draw the line? Paul helps us to set a reasonable limit by adding the exhortation, “…not even eating with such a man.” This indicates that some in his audience would not have immediately understood ‘mixing in company’ to include having a meal with the person. Paul is here saying that in this case, it would be going too far even to eat with the individual.
Notice that in drawing the line, Paul stops at “not even eating with such a man.” He says nothing about cutting off all contact with him. Nothing is said about not even saying hello or having a casual conversation. If while shopping we were to meet a former brother who we had stopped associating with because we knew him to be a drunkard or a fornicator, we could still say hello, or ask him how he had been faring. No one would take that for mixing in company with him.
This understanding is critical to answering the following questions.
Who Determines If a Sinner Is to Be Disfellowshipped?
Remember, we are not allowing bias or indoctrination to restrict our thinking process. Rather, we want to stick with what the Bible says and not go beyond it.
Given that, let’s start with an example. Say two sisters are working at the same firm. One begins an affair with a co-worker. She commits fornication, possibly more than once. What Bible principle should guide the actions of the other sister? Obviously, love should motivate her to approach her friend to help her to come back to her senses. If she won her over, would she still be required to report this to the elders, or would the sinner need to make confession to men? Certainly such a serious, potentially life altering step would be spelled out somewhere in the Christian Scriptures.
“But isn’t it up to the elders to decide?”, you may say.
The question is, where does it say that? In the case of the Corinthian congregation, Paul’s letter was not addressed to the body of elders but to the entire congregation.
Still you might say, “I am not qualified to judge someone’s repentance, or lack thereof.” Well said. You are not. Neither is any other man. That is why Paul mentions nothing about judging repentance. You can see with your own eyes whether a brother is a drunkard. His actions speak louder than his words. You don’t need to know what is in his heart to determine whether to continue fellowship with him.
But what if he says he only did it the once and has stopped. How do we know he isn’t continuing the sin secretly. We don’t. We are not God’s police force. We have no mandate to interrogate our brother; to sweat the truth out of him. If he fools us, he fools us. So what? He’s not fooling God.
What Determines If the Sinner Is to Be Reinstated?
In short, the same thing that determines if he is to be disfellowshipped. For instance, if a brother and sister moved in together without benefit of marriage, you would not want to continue to associate with them, would you? That would be in effect approving of their illicit relationship. If however, they got married, their status would have changed. Would it be logical—more important, would it be loving—to continue to disassociate yourself from someone who has set their life straight?
If you reread 2 Corinthians 2:6, you will notice that Paul says, “This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man.” When Paul wrote the first letter to the Corinthians, it was up to each individual to make an assessment. It seems that the majority were in line with Paul’s thinking. A minority perhaps were not. Obviously, there would be Christians at all levels of development in any given congregation. However the rebuke, given by the majority, was sufficient to correct this brother’s thinking and bring him to repentance. However, there was a danger that the Christians would take his sin personally and wish to punish him. This was not the purpose of the rebuke, nor is it in the purview of one Christian to punish another. The danger of doing this is that one might be blood-guilty by causing the little one to be lost to Satan.
General Sins – a Summary
So with the exclusion of apostasy, if there is a brother (or sister) in the congregation who is engaging in a sinful course of conduct, despite our attempts to bring him to his senses, we should simply decide personally and individually to cease association with such a one. If they cease their course of sinful conduct, then we should welcome them back into the congregation so that they do not get lost to the world. It really is no more complicated than that. This process works. It has to, because it comes from our Lord.
Disfellowshipping—Handling the Sin of Apostasy
Why does the Bible deal with the sin of apostasy[10] differently from that of the other sins we have discussed? For example, if my former brother is a fornicator, I can still talk with him though I will not keep company with him. However, if he is an apostate I will not even say hello to him.
(2 John 9-11) . . .Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.
There is a marked difference between someone who is a fornicator versus someone who promotes fornication. This is comparable to the difference between the Ebola virus and cancer. One is contagious and the other is not. However, let’s not take the analogy too far. Cancer cannot morph into the Ebola virus. However, a fornicator (or any other sinner for that matter) can morph into an apostate. In the congregation of Thyatira, there was a woman called Jezebel ‘who called herself a prophetess and taught and misled others in the congregation to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed idols.’[11]
Notice however that John does not tell us that it is some body of elders that decides whether or not an apostate is to be disfellowshipped from the congregation. He simply says, “if anyone comes to you…” If a brother or sister came to you claiming to be God’s prophet and telling you that it’s okay to commit sexual immorality, do you have to wait around for some judicial committee to tell you to stop associating with that person?
Disfellowshipping—Going Beyond the Things Written
Personally, I don’t like the term “disfellowshipping” nor any of its bedfellows: excommunication, shunning, etc. You coin a term because you need a way to describe a procedure, policy or process. The instruction Jesus gives us on dealing with sin is not some policy that has to be labelled. The Bible puts all the control into the hands of the individual. A religious hierarchy eager to protect its authority and maintain control over the flock will not be happy with such an arrangement.
Since we now know what the Bible instructs us to do, let us compare that with what we actually do within the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The Informant Process
If you witness a brother or sister getting drunk at a public gathering, you are instructed to approach them to encourage them to go to the elders. You are to give them some time, a few days, and then talk to the elders yourself just in case they failed to follow your advice. In short, if you witness a sin you are required to report it to the elders. If you do not report it, you are considered to be complicit in the sin. The basis for this goes back to the Jewish law. However, we are not under Jewish law. There was a great deal of dispute in the first century about the circumcision issue. There were those who wished to implement this Jewish custom within the Christian congregation. The Holy Spirit directed them not to do so, and eventually those who continued to promote this idea were to be removed from the Christian congregation; Paul making no small bones about how he felt about such Judaizers.[12] By implementing the Jewish informant system, we are like modern-day Judaizers, replacing new Christian law with outdated Jewish law.
When Manmade Rules Count More Than Scriptural Principles
Paul makes it clear that we are to quit mixing in company with a man who is a fornicator, idolater, etc. He is obviously talking about a practice of sin, but what constitutes a practice? Our judicial system is not comfortable with principles, though we often give them lip service. For example, if I went to the driving range and hit only three golf balls, then told you that I practiced my golf swing, you’d probably have to stifle a laugh, or perhaps you’d just nod and back away slowly. So how would you feel if you got drunk on two occasions and the elders accused you of engaging in a practice of sin?
In giving elders direction on determining repentance, our Organization’s judicial handbook asks “Was it a single offense, or was it a practice?”[13] On numerous occasions, I have seen where this mentality has led. It has guided elders, and the circuit and district overseers who direct them, to consider a second offense as a practice which indicates a hardening of the heart. I have seen the “practice” that two or three occurrences represents be the determining factor on whether to disfellowship.
Determining Repentance
Paul’s direction to the Corinthians is simple. Is the person committing the sin? Yes. Then don’t associate with him anymore. Obviously, if he’s no longer committing the sin, there’s no reason to break off association.
That simply will not do for us however. We have to determine repentance. We have to try to peer into the heart of our brother or sister and determine whether or not they really mean what they say when they say they’re sorry. I have been on more than my fair share of judicial cases. I have seen sisters in tears who still will not leave their lovers. I have known ultra-reserved brothers who give no outward hint at what is in their heart, but whose subsequent conduct indicated a repentant spirit. There really is no way for us to know for sure. We are talking about sins against God, and even if a fellow Christian is hurt, ultimately it is only God who can grant forgiveness. So why do we tread on God’s territory and presume to judge the heart of our fellow?
To show where this need to determine repentance leads, let us look at the issue of automatic disfellowshipping. From the Shepherd the Flock of God book, we have:
9. While there is no such thing as automatic disfellowshipping, an individual may have gone so far into sin that he may not be able to demonstrate sufficient repentance to the judicial committee at the time of the hearing. If so, he must be disfellowshipped. [Boldface in original; italics added for emphasis][14]
So here’s a scenario. A brother has been secretly smoking marijuana off and on for a year. He goes to the circuit assembly and there’s a part on holiness that cuts him to the heart. He goes to the elders the following Monday and confesses his sin. They meet with him that Thursday. Less than a week has passed since his last smoke. Not enough time for them to know with any reasonable certainly that he will continue to refrain from lighting up. So, he must be disfellowshipped! Yet, we claim that we have no such things as automatic disfellowshipping. We are speaking out of both sides of our mouth. The irony is that if the brother had kept the sin to himself, waited a few months, then revealed it, he would not be disfellowshipped because sufficient time had transpired for the brothers to see “signs of repentance”. How ridiculous this policy makes us look.
Could it be more clear why the Bible does not direct elders to determine repentance? Jesus would not set us up to fail, which is exactly what we are doing over and over by trying to read the heart of our brother.
The Requirement to Confess Our Sins to Men
Why would the brother in this scenario even bother to come to the elders? There is no Scriptural requirement for us to confess our sins to our brothers in order to be forgiven. He would have simply repented to God and ceased the practice. I know of cases where a brother sinned secretly over 20 years in the past, yet felt the need to confess it to the elders to be “right with God”. This mentality is so engrained in our brotherhood, that even though we say that the elders are not “father confessors”, we treat them as if they were and do not feel that God has forgiven us until some man says he has.
There is a provision for confessing sins to men, but its purpose isn’t the procurement of God’s forgiveness through the hands of humans. Rather, it is about getting needed help and to aid in healing.
(James 5:14-16) 14 Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect.
Notice that this isn’t direction for us to confess all our sins to men. Verse 15 indicates that forgiveness of sins could even be incidental to the process. Someone is sick and needs help and [incidentally] “if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”
We might compare this to a doctor. No doctor can heal you. The human body heal itself; so ultimately, it is God who does the healing. The physician can just make the process work better, faster, and guide you on what you need to do to facilitate it.
Verse 16 talks about openly confessing our sins to one another, not publishers to elders, but each Christian to his fellow. The elders should be doing this as much as the next brother. Its purpose is for the upbuilding of the individual as well as the collective. It is not part of some unstated judicial process where humans judge other humans and evaluate their level of repentance.
Where is our sense of modesty in any of this? It is clearly outside of our capabilities—therefore, outside of our limits—to evaluate the repentant heart condition of anyone. All we can do is observe one’s actions. If a brother has been smoking pot or getting drunk repeatedly in the privacy of his own home, and if he then comes to us to confess his sins and seek our help, we must give it. Nothing is stated in Scripture about our first needing to evaluate whether he is worthy of this help. The fact he came to us indicates he is worthy of it. However, we don’t deal with these situations that way. If a brother has become an alcoholic, we require that he first desist from drinking for a long enough period of time for us to determine his repentance. Only then can we give him the help he needs. That would be like a doctor telling a patient, “I can’t help you until you get better.”
Returning to the case of Jezebel in the Thyatira congregation, here we have an individual who is not simply sinning, but encouraging others to do so. Jesus tells the angel of that congregation, “…I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of the sexual immorality. Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.”[15] Jesus had already given her time to repent, but he’d reached the limit of his patience. He was going to throw her into a sickbed and her followers into tribulation, but even then, there was still the possibility for repentance and salvation.
If she were around today, we’d toss her out on her backside at the first or second instance of her sin. Even if she or her followers repented, we’d likely disfellowship them just to teach the rest a lesson about what happens if you disobey our laws. So which way is better? Obviously the tolerance Jesus demonstrated to Jezebel and her followers is far in excess of what we practice today. Is our way better than Jesus’? Was he being too forgiving? Too understanding? A little too permissive, perhaps? One would certainly think so given that we would never allow such a condition to exist without prompt and decisive action.
Of course, there is always the possibility, and I know this suggestion is way out in left field, but there is always the possibility that maybe, just maybe, we could learn a thing or two from the way Christ deals with these situations.
Causing Others to Sin
It is clear from what we have studied so far that the way we are to deal with the sinner in the general sense varies from how the Bible instructs us to deal with the apostate. It would be wrong to treat someone guilty of the type of sin Paul lists in 2 Corinthians 5 in the same manner as we would treat the apostate that John describes in his second letter. The trouble is that our current system denies the congregation member the necessary knowledge for him to know the proper course of action to take. The transgressor’s sin is kept secret. The details are kept secret. All we know is that a person has been pronounced as disfellowshipped by a committee of three men. Perhaps he couldn’t give up smoking cigarettes. Perhaps he just wanted to resign from the congregation. Or perhaps he was prompting devil worship. We just don’t know, so all transgressors get tarred with the same brush. All are treated the way the Bible instructs us to treat apostates, not even saying a greeting to such ones. Jesus commands us to treat an unrepentant drunkard or fornicator a certain way, but we say, “Sorry, Lord Jesus, but no can do. The Governing Body is telling me to treat them all like apostates.” Imagine if our worldly judicial system worked this way. All prisoners would have to get the same sentence and it would have to be the worst possible sentence, be they a pickpocket or a serial killer.
A Bigger Sin
Another way that this process causes us to sin is very grave indeed. The Bible says those who stumble the little one might as well have a millstone tied around their neck and be tossed into the deep blue sea. Not a comforting image, is it?
I have known cases where a sinner has actually come forward to confess a sin to the elders, having desisted from it (in one case for three months) but because he had carried it out repeatedly and in secret, possibly after being counseled against an unwise course of action that might lead to sin, the elders felt it necessary to disfellowship him. The reasoning is, ‘He was warned. He should have known better. Now he thinks all he has to do is say “I’m sorry” and all is forgiven? Not going to happen.’
To disfellowship a repentant individual who has desisted from his sin is fleshly thinking. This is shunning as punishment. It is the mentality of “You do the crime. You do the time.” This mentality is supported by direction we get from the governing body. For example, elders have been warned that some married couples wishing to obtain a scriptural divorce have conspired for one of the two to commit a single act of fornication so as to give them scriptural grounds. We are warned to be wary of this and if we believe this is the case, that we should not quickly reinstate the disfellowshipped individual. We are instructed to do this so that others do not follow in the same course. This is very much a mentality of deterrence based on punishment. It is how the judicial system of the world works. There simply is no place for it in the Christian congregation. In fact, it shows a lack of faith. No one can fool Jehovah, and it is his role not ours to deal with wrongdoers.
Think about how Jehovah dealt with the repentant King Manasseh?[16] Who do you know that has come anywhere close to the level of sin that he achieved. There was no “prison sentence” for him; no extended period of time in which to prove his true repentance.
We also have the Christian era example of the prodigal son.[17] In the video of the same name released by the Watchtower society last year, the son returning to his parents was required to report his sin to the elders. They would decide whether he could return or not. If they had decided against—and in real life, I would have given the young man a 50/50 chance they would have said “No”—he would have been denied the help and encouragement he needed from his family. He would have been on his own, to fend for himself. In his weakened state, he might very likely have returned to his worldly friends, the only support system left to him. If his parents had decided to take him in despite the disfellowshipping, they would have been considered as disloyal to the Organization and the decision of the elders. Privileges would have been removed, and they would have been threatened with disfellowshipping themselves.
Contrast his very real scenario—for it has happened countless times in our Organization—with the lesson Jesus was trying to communicate through this parable. The father forgave the son at a distance—“while he was still a long way off”—and welcomed his son back with great rejoicing.[18] He didn’t sit down with him and try to determine his true level of repentance. He didn’t say, “You’ve only just returned. How do I know you are sincere; that you’re not going to go off and do it all again? Let’s give you some time to show your sincerity and then we’ll decide what to do with you.”
That we could use the illustration of the prodigal son to lend support to our judicial system and get away with it is a shocking indictment to the degree to which we have been indoctrinated into thinking this system is just and originates with God.
Involving Us in Their Sin
Paul warned the Corinthians not to keep the man they had removed from their midst outside for fear that he might give in to sadness and be lost. His sin was scandalous in nature and notorious, so that even the pagans were aware of it. Paul didn’t say to the Corinthians that they needed to keep the man out for a good period of time so that the people of the nations would realize we don’t put up with that kind of behavior. His first concern wasn’t how the congregation would be perceived, nor was he concerned for the sanctity of Jehovah’s name. His concern was for the individual. Losing a man to Satan would not sanctify the name of God. It would bring God’s anger however. So Paul is exhorting them to return the man so as to save him.[19] This second letter was written within the same year, possibly only a few months after the first.
However, our modern-day application has left many languishing in a disfellowshipped state for 1, 2 or even more years—long after they ceased practicing the sins for which they were disfellowshipped. I have known cases where the individual stopped sinning before the judicial hearing and yet was disfellowshipped for almost two years.
Now here is where they involve us in their sin. If we see the that disfellowshipped individual is going downhill spiritually, and try to render aid so that he is not “overreached by Satan”, we will be in danger of being disfellowshipped ourselves.[20] We punish with the greatest severity all who do not respect the decision of the elders. We have to wait on their decision to reinstate the individual. Yet Paul’s words were not directed to a committee of three, but to the entire congregation.
(2 Corinthians 2:10) . . .If you forgive anyone for anything, I do also.. . .
In Summation
The Bible puts the responsibility to deal with sinners into the hands of the Christian—that’s you and me—not into the hands of human leaders, a religious hierarchy or overlord. Jesus tells us how to deal with minor and major sins of a personal nature. He tells how to deal with those who sin against God and practice their sins while claiming to be our brothers and sisters. He tells us how to deal with sins of a criminal nature and even sins of apostasy. All this power lies in the hands of the individual Christian. Of course, there is guidance that we can obtain from the older men, “those taking the lead among you”. However, the ultimate responsibility on how to deal with sinners lies with us individually. There is no provision in scripture that authorizes us to surrender that responsibility to another, no matter how august and spiritual the individual claims to be.
Our current judicial system requires us to report sins to a group of men in the congregation. It authorizes those men to determine repentance; to decide who stays and who goes. It mandates that all their meetings, records and decisions be kept in secret. It denies us the right to know the issues and requires us to put blind faith in the decision made by a group of three men. It punishes us if we conscientiously refuse to obey these men.
There is nothing in the law the Christ imparted while on earth, nor in the apostolic letters, nor in the vision of John to give support to any of this. The rules and regulations that define our judicial process with its three-man committees, secret meetings, and harsh punishments is nowhere—I repeat, NOWHERE—to be found in Scripture. We have made it all up ourselves, claiming that it is done under the direction of Jehovah God.
What Will You Do?
I am not talking rebellion here. I am talking obedience. We owe our Lord Jesus and our heavenly Father our unconditional obedience. They have given us their law. Will we obey it?
The power that the Organization wields is an illusion. They would have us believe that their power comes from God, but Jehovah does not empower those who disobey him. The control they exercise of our minds and hearts is due to the power that we grant them.
If a disfellowshipped brother or sister is languishing in sadness and in danger of being lost, we have an obligation to help. What can the elders do if we act? If the entire congregation were to welcome the individual back, then what can the elders do? Their power is an illusion. We give it to them by our complacent obedience, but if we obey the Christ instead, we strip them of all power that goes contrary to his righteous decrees.
Of course, if we stand alone, while the rest continue to obey men, we are in danger. However, that may just be the price we have to pay to stand up for righteousness. Jesus and Jehovah love courageous people; people who act out of faith, knowing that what we do in obedience will not go unnoticed nor unrewarded by our King and our God.
We can be cowards or we can be conquerors.
(Revelation 21:7, 8) Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowards and those without faith…their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”
To view the next article in this series, click here.
[2] For previous installments, see “Exercise Justice” and “Love Kindness”.
[3] 2 Peter 3:
[4] Jeremiah 10:23
[5] Galatians 6:7
[6] 1 Peter 4:
[7] Isaiah 1:18
[8] 1 Corinthians 4:6
[9] 1 Corinthians 5:13; 2 Corinthians 2:5-11
[10] For purposes of this discussion, any reference to apostasy or apostates is to be understood from the Bible viewpoint of one who opposes God and his Son. One who through word or action, denies the Christ and his teachings. This would include those who claim to worship and obey the Christ, but teach and act in a way that demonstrates they really stand in opposition to him. Unless specifically stated, the term “apostate” does not apply to those who deny the teachings of the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses (or any other faith for that matter). While opposition to a church’s doctrinal framework is often viewed by the church authorities as apostasy, we are only concerned with how the ultimate authority in the universe views it.
[11] Revelation 2:20-23
[12] Galatians 5:12
[13] ks 7:8 p. 92
[14] ks 7:9 p. 92
[15] Revelation 2:21, 22
[16] 2 Chronicles 33:12, 13
[17] Luke 15:11-32
[18] Luke 15:20
[19] 2 Corinthians 2:8-11
[20] 2 Corinthians 2:11
Amen! I love this article. “Disfellowshipping” is distasteful and unscriptural. Who can imagine the Christ ignoring a weak person? To the contrary, we are encouraged to help the weak. As mentioned in the article, let each individual make his own decision who they will “fellowship” with. If we know someone is abusing an illegal substance or partaking of some bad practice, we should have enough sense to steer clear of them. The current disfellowshipping arrangement also allows wolves to twist rules in order to remove anyone faithful who seems to threaten their authority, when if fact, oftentimes the elders in… Read more »
[…] a detailed account of the many intricacies of this court system and excommunication please see http://meletivivlon.com/2014/03/11/be-modest-in-walking-with-god/) God is a holy God and requires that we walk modestly with Him and well as meet his standards of […]
[…] accused stands alone before his judges and is denied any support from family and friends. (See here for a full […]
[…] To view the next article in this series, click here. […]
[…] preparing the last post on disfellowshipping, I spent a good deal of time working out how to apply the procedures Jesus gave us at Matthew […]
Thank you both, for the welcome 🙂
Hello everyone, Ive just finished reading this fine article, and now feel very emotional. I have so much I too want to express and share, regarding experiences and feelings relating to my own particular experience associating with JW’s for almost 40 years; but now is not the time. Yes, I was baptised, and no Im not disfellowshipped or disassociated (although yes, I have in the past been reproved and disfellowshipped and sat before numerous judicial committees ) I have not been regular at meetings for probably longer than 12 years. I have tried though, to keep my loyalty to Jehovah… Read more »
Hear and Mind.
Hello and so pleased you found this site. It took me ages to find the courage to post anything as I felt thrown about and hurt. You will not be hurt here as people are really trying to understand our relationship with God and Jesus Christ in this place. No one thinks they are better than the other, some are really angry, some are sad and disillusioned, but everyone is clinging to a faith the God’s inspired word and His fully approved Son Jesus Christ. You are actually quite safe here.
Take care.
Heart&Mind
I just wanted to give you a warm welcome to the community. It’s really uplifting to hear your heartfelt thoughts. Many of us can relate to exactly what you are describing.
Please feel free to join us over at the discussion board when you feel up to it. See the article here for how to do that. Although I do hope that we will just make the whole thing public perhaps by the end of the week.
Your brother,
Apollos
Wow… That’s all I can say. In keeping with the theme of Meleti’s article , I can’t help but feel a sense of anger by this exchange.I don’t pretend to know all of ASFT’s circumstances. From what he has said he was only disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the GB.If this is indeed true they threw our dear brother out of the congregation and look at what has happened! I’m sorry how could the GB not have blood on their hands? Is unity of the JW’s worth one sheep falling by the wayside ?! Of course I believe in personal accountability… Read more »
GWIT, You are very discerning and I share your sadness. I too see bloodguilt on the GBs part for disfellowshipping one who questions the truth of the GB. I have seen so many others who were disfellowshipped or disassociated became deeply angry and bitter, I believe the depth of one’s anger is equal to the depth of their pain. Grave damage has been inflicted on so many of our dear brothers and sisters, someone will have to answer to Jehovah for how they have been mistreated and what results became of that treatment….at the hands of “God’s Visible Organization on… Read more »
To Meleti, So you are are my profiler now? Well Good for you. I’m done here, I’ll leave you all in peace to have your little spiritual clique here as I am obviously not welcome here. I came here to share some new things that I have learned, but you do not want to hear it. I came to share it with you all, hoping that you will at least consider what I have to share. I do not consider myself to be a righteous person and I am certainly not a righteous preacher, just an imperfect man with some… Read more »
TO ALL: Some have expressed their concerns to me privately about comments like this. I have allowed this interchange with “A Searcher for Truth” to go on for some time for the purpose of setting a precedent. One of my duties as one of the site administrators is to maintain the congenial climate of the forum so that all find it a warm and welcoming place for the free and open exchange of Bible research. At times this requires that I do not approve a comment–admittedly, a form of censorship. In that capacity, there is always the danger of acting… Read more »
BN, I am so touched by your story. I can feel how much you love your son and how helpless you feel, and how hard you are trying to help him. May I suggest that if he has been in therapy for years, and he is still suicidal, perhaps it is time to consult with a different provider if that is possible for him? Untill he is placed on the proper medication for his chemical imbalance in the brain, it makes his suicidal thinking harder for him to deal with. And he has to actually take the medication for it… Read more »
Thank you for sharing this, imacountrygirl2. For those of us who have been spared the ravages of mental illness, it is most helpful to gain this understanding so that we might be able to help others that we come across.
Thank you so much , and I agree I think it’s time for him to change therapist. .Here we live, it’s so difficult getting a broader picture when you already godt a dignosis. I think the only thing holding him up now is actually his love for Christ,
Retry . . .
Matthew 18:15 (See href=”http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/18-15.htm”>)
Rev 1:10 (See discussion href=”http://meletivivlon.com/2014/03/03/wt-study-worship-jehovah-the-king-of-eternity/#comment-9517″>)
Meleti: In this rendering [ href=”http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/18-15.htm”><Matthew 18:15], Jesus gives no indication that the sin referred to is personal in nature. So one could arrive at the conclusion that this is how one deals with all sin in the congregation. However, this is one of many examples where the translators of the NWT have been sloppy. The interlinear rendering of this passage clearly shows that the sin is committed “against you”. So we are talking about sins like slander, stealing, fraud, etc. In regards to the above quoted paragraph (where I inserted “Matthew 18:15” for context’s sake, and I bolded the… Read more »
Oh well. Back to the drawing board for the clickable links. 🙁
The irony is that I spent a couple of days working out the logic of applying Matthew 18:15-17 to all sins, not just personal ones. It was your comment about Revelation 1:10 that caused to me question the rendering of Matthew 18:15, so I researched it and had to rewrite that portion. Argh! 🙂 Well, that’s what this forum is for, to deepen our understanding of Scripture. Certainly, if this applies to all sins–and personally, I liked it better when I thought it did–then it blows our whole judicial system right out of the water. I’ll have to spend some… Read more »
If you want (and it will take some time due to my rather slow typing speed) I can post an excerpt from France’s commentary (NICNT-Matthew). I’m not sure if I fully agree with France’s position (that 18:15 refers to any sins, not just personal ones). I just haven’t had the time to devote to that particular subject. But the idea is fascinating. And if correct, then, as you said, it does ‘blow the whole WT judicial system out of the water.’ Certainly, there is a lot about the WT judicial system that needs ‘blown out of the water.’ And again,… Read more »
Let me get back to you on that. I have an idea.
Just as an interesting follow on to this thought, compare the paragraph breaks in the NWT with several of the modern translations on BibleHub (e.g. NIV, NLT, ESV, HCS) The NICNT commentary links Matthew 18:15-17 as the natural flow of thought from verses 10-14. The NWT places verse 10 with verses 8 and 9. But the translations above (as well as the NICNT commentary) place verse 10 either alone or with 12-14 (with verse 11 correctly omitted). It indicates some difference in viewpoint as far as how the translators of the NWT viewed the passage. The first sentence in the… Read more »
I see you’ve found out how to embed clickable links. I use the special editing form available to site administrators but, for some reason WordPress doesn’t explain, denied to regular contributors.
However, since others have asked about this, I’ve learned how to do it in text. I’ve pasted in an example, but I had to change some key characters for it to show.
If you replace all square brackets with pointy ones in this line of text:
[a href=”http://discussthetruth.com” title=”Discuss the Truth forum.” target=”_blank”]Click Here[/a] to visit our new forum.
You’ll get this:
Click Here to visit our new forum.
Could be true brothers because some manuscripts do not have these words on them as you said .the context is interesting .jesus is providing instruction for his disciples to follow The verses seem to be setting out a procedure for dealing with the importance of forgiveness of sin . The verses are sandwiched beetween the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the unmerciful servant note verse 21 of the introduction .then peter came to jesus and said lord how many times shall i forgive my brother when he sins against me .while not conclusive this may indicate… Read more »
Good points Kev.
My dear sister thinkingsis, My heart was wrenched when you said your son confessed he had been molested, just before his suicide. Was the sexual abuse of your son from someone within the congregation?
No it wasn’t, but his friend he grew up with in the truth was molested by some one in the cong…another publisher. The brothers never ever found out about that….he had already left the truth anyway. My son suffered a lot, I have not put in half of what he went thru. His biggest betrayal was by his spiritual family I guess…..they made him feel as if his God did not want him….but he overcome that before his death. To me that proved he was more spiritual than the elders were. I thought I had kept a good eye on… Read more »
I did reply but it hasn’t come thru so I will again.
No it wasn’t …….he wept tears the last day about it…he actually suffered more than I have written….what I have written is enough for people to understand….
I have never been molested my self…I can only TRY to understand
He said he thought about it every day and had tremendous guilt…….
His pain broke my heart…..it still does…I relive his pain all the time…..I hate this world.
Thank you so much imacountrygirl2. Your kindness humbles me and brings tears to my eyes.
EmilyJeff, I am so happy you are sharing from your heart! I agree with everything you have said. And you said it so well. Loving God and loving all of mankind, who are in fact the true definition of our brothers, because we are all God’s children as well as brothers and sisters of Jesus and to each other, is exactly what Jesus commanded us all to do…..the only thing he told us we must do if we want him to be our Saviour. So very simple, not at all complicated or impossible to do. Love is the only answer… Read more »
Thank you for your kindness Thinkingsis. I know you have suffered greatly and my heart goes out to you. You have offered encouraging words to me and I want to thank you for that. I too have suffered from depression most of my life and have been in therapy and take medication. I can identify with imacountrygirl2 as I too was always the outsider in and out of the JW religion. I’ll tell you a little of my story. I became a Jehovah’s Witness many decades ago and over the years I was in and out several times. I don’t… Read more »
To ‘A searcher for truth:’ Your very name implies that you are still searching for truth. I know and understand that feeling very well. I believe a lot of us who grew up trusting and believing the GB, after finding out just how many lies they have told us and deceptions they have practiced going back many years, makes us doubt everything we’ve ever been told. If you were like me, you just took it for granted that everything you heard at the KH was true. Now I question everything and unless it resonates with my heart, I put it… Read more »
My deepest and sincere apologies to my “Sister” umbertoecho for assuming that you were my brother. Also my deepest love and sympathy to thinkingsis for the loss of your son to suicide. It is my hope that you do not feel guilt over your son’s death, because it is too heavy a burden to place upon yourself when it is not your fault. If a person has decided in their heart to take their own life, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it, no matther how much you loved him. No one can be responsible for another person’s… Read more »
What a beautiful post sister, how kind and knowing you are. The sort of knowing and depth can only come from suffering. Your suffering has made you the person you are today, you didn’t waste those scars you carry. You have and are putting them to good and valuable use. Everything you have said is true…I am one hundred percent sure Jehovah will or already is using you in some way. Keep speaking up…I also came out of the closet….the depression closet that is. It is in epidemic proportions today, with in the cong and out of it. 20 odd… Read more »
To Meleti, it is clear to me that you do not wish me to respond to you because you remove the reply feature, as it would appear. But anyway I will respond to you here in this section in regards to why I am here. To be honest I do not really know myself why I come here just to verbally get beaten up on, and told to be on my way like some mongrel dog or something. Yet that is how you are treating me. I take comfort in that fact that most of the prophets of the past… Read more »
I do not remove the reply feature. If the replies get down to the sixth level, the reply feature goes away, because the limit has been reached. What you do is then scroll up to the previous reply and click that.
You are quite welcome to continue to speak on this site as long as you do not promote anti-scriptural teachings, teachings of demons, or just vent. The purpose of the site is Bible research.
I am sorry about the misunderstanding about the reply feature, I did not know and so my accusation was unwarranted, so I do apologize to you for that. As to the other things that you have mentioned how is one to have any discussion on anything if they cannot refer to other writings from time to time? Is that not a narrow position to take? I have reconsidered my statement about the “ransom sacrifice” here on this forum and realized that it is clearly a stumbling block for most here on this forum, and despite my understanding of it at… Read more »
Let’s avoid speculation, shall we?
So we cannot even speculate on this forum now?
Or is it just me that you don’t want to speculate?
Hi Searcher , whatever the elite , Obama or Putin will do, does’t matter. We as a christians rely on God and Christ . Our job is to encourage each other in good works and love . Our opinions may differ on some subject but that’s not a problem if we respect and love each other as a brothers. There is no need to push own opinion on other people. Love.
Sometimes, I wonder why I even bother to talk about these things. I somehow was gullible enough to think that people here were honestly interested in the truth and finding out what is going on on this God forsaken planet. Just all of you put your head in the sand and forget about it. You people have prophecies in the Bible to peruse , a Book which you so revere, yet you do not even want to discuss it’s prophecies. Instead I get accused of speculating by the one who runs this site. What is wrong with you people? If… Read more »
Speculation is fine as long as you label it as such. Our magazines are full of speculation presented as Bible truth, and we come to this site to be free of that. All here are free to present their ideas and theories about the meaning of any Bible prophecy, but we do that by showing logically from scripture the basis for our understanding. When you start doing this, your speculations will be welcome. You do seem to love to play the victim. The righteous preacher of truth, misunderstood by the world, persecuted by those he only wishes to save. The… Read more »
“God forsaken” and “the Bible, a book YOU people so revere”. I am personally happy to speak about any source of information within reason and to muse on the world scene, history, meanings and interpretations etc. I have responded at length to many of your comments, as have others, offering scriptures to clarify on points you have made, but you only seem to be interested in cherry picking truth from here and there. Your views are repeatedly inconsistent. On the one hand a fellow believer, in the other hand a new truth beyond Jesus and the bible. On the one… Read more »
A searcher for truth, I am sorry that you have a persecution complex. I am also sorry that you are reading such a book as the Urantia book, which was published in 1955 and was “apparently” inspired by a man who was completely unconscious throughout his “inspired expressions” then upon gaining consciousness had absolutely no recollection of anything he had said. This book has been fairly well tested and makes some assertions that are very insubordinate to the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ. When I read the passage about the “financial” directions that Jesus supposedly gave to his brother,… Read more »
To ‘A searcher for truth:’ a Christian who questions the inspiration of parts of the Word of God has ‘fallen away from’ the Christian faith, which is the scriptural definition for apostasy. Mat 5:18b “Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him, for he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” 2 Jo 9-11 “For it is impossible as regards those… Read more »
In fact while we are on this subject relating to 2 john 2 v7 we could ask why did john give such strong counsel to avoid those who teach that jesus did not come in the flesh .in my opinion the implications are serious Hebrews 10 v 5 onwards therefore when christ came into the world he said sacrifice and offering you did not want but a body you prepared for me verse 9 .and 10 then he said here i am i am come to do your will he sets aside the first to establish the second and by… Read more »
Thinkingsis I would like to extend my profound sympathy for what you have suffered. I agree with Meleti that your son is now safe with his loving heavenly Father and you will see him in the resurrection. I too used to be reluctant to criticize the organization because I thought it was the “truth” but in the last year I have learned so much about them that I no longer consider myself a Jehovah’s Witness but rather simply a Christian. I don’t post very often anymore as I’m afraid I will offend some by my outspokenness and for all my… Read more »
emilyjeff,
That was a good scripture to read through. I agree about being a Christian too, as it seems we have ignored the extremely important role of Jesus Christ in our future. I do hope you will feel free to be blunt, or comfortable enough to speak from a spirit of honesty when you do express your thoughts here. The provider of this site has. This has given me a lot of hope and taken away much fear and loneliness.
Please please keep commenting EMILYJEFF, I’m so new here and it would appear to be rather forward. It’s just that I’ve been starving for companionship and had to leave a loverly little forum because those that were once brothers were allowed on promoting their new found new age faith. It really bother my conscious to rub shoulders with them considering the advise at Galatians. I was really sad to leave those brothers and sisters….I’m just so releived to find this site. We all need each other so much, you will not say anything to offend me. We need to express… Read more »
I just want to say that I’m in the middst of it right now: my son has had several attempts to kill himself, and I’m afraid he someday will succeed. (He’s been in theraphy for years) When he was disfellowshipped this time (second – now he struggles with selfmedication – I just told him to stay out, do to they persecuting him since he was 15 (then wanting him to tell on others – he wasn’t baptised) He was 1 year in reehab, came back and got baptised. After some years he fell in love with a girl from a… Read more »
I’m so sorry about your son, in a way to some extent you are living my nightmare. I know this sounds like a ..mm perhaps not a spiritual answer…but I would keep him away from the org. He is not well….he has a long way to go . Jehovah only wants from each of us what we can do…he doesn’t want, what we have not got. Help your son to get well emotionally and physically…that is vital. That takes a long time……if and when he does let him just read the scriptures and get strong from that and Jehovahs holy… Read more »
Dear BN Please feel free to contact me if you wish. As you can see, we are many; that are dealing with this phenomenon of self destruction within the family. I do think the organization is beginning to slowly awaken, yet this may be a bit too late……so many younger ones have been left feeling terribly isolated and have lost their sense of dignity through such harsh treatment such as “marking” and disfellowshipping. I am off to “interfere” today in the welfare of my nephew, as I am worried that his parents are not taking his situation with the gravity… Read more »
Hi Umbertoecho,
Sorry sister…but you seem to be a brother..lol…..my mistake.
I don’t know how long ago you lost your daughter but soon dear brother you will have her back…..there is a saying I read…….TIME DOES NOT EASE THE PAIN…..YOUR LEGS JUST GET STRONGER
I hope this is true for you dear brother…..not long now…we are nearly there
Warm Christian hug to you and your family.
thinkingsis,
Not a problem. It is easy to make a mistake as to the gender of a person, especially as we are incognito here.
A loving thought……….straight back to you. With all Christian warmth.
A searcher for truth, I’ve watched this exchange all day. I mean no disrespect but what is your endgame here? You have obviously come to a site where people believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. We have brothers and sisters on this site who were moved by this article to talk about the death of their children and you want to debate about inspiration of The Bible. Based on what you have said so far, I’m not sure what led you to this site in the first place. What do you get out of being on… Read more »
And as I have stated before, to the Watchtower Society, most of you here are apostates. To you I am an apostate because I do not believe 100% percent in the Bible? I came here because I am interested in truth whether it is from Biblical concepts or other sources and believe me when i say that I have scrutinized quite a few sources for information that maybe truth. As I have stated before I was a baptized Jehovah’s Witnesses for over 30 years and so yes I do have a reasonable knowledge of the scriptures as most JW witnesses.… Read more »
Asft I don’t pretend to know you at all. Why do you need confirmation from anyone here as to whether you are an Apostate.? What did you really expect us to say? I am not judging you I’m judging your actions. Ultimately that’s between you and God. If the brothers disfellowshipped you for denying the teachings of the GB they were dead wrong. However if you were promoting the ideas and teachings you have posted on this site they were justified. Jesus entrusted Paul to take the lead in those congregations.Based on Paul ‘s view and Peter who walked with… Read more »
No I do not consider myself an apostate, but how others view me whether in person or on-line does effect me, and so I am sensitive to this and that is why sometimes I might overact to insinuations that I am an apostate. I was more-or-less disfellowshiped as an apostate for only referring to Biblical things and not for any other writings. I had not even heard of the Urantia papers or the Law-of-one or the Kolbrin Bible or the Sumerian texts, anunaki papers, and the list goes on. I had not even heard about any of these writings, I… Read more »
As my recent post states, the Bible tells us that it is for each one to make his or her own determination whether the teachings of an individual are acceptable or not and whether or not to listen to what he has to say based on 2 John 10, 11. It is not for me or anyone else to direct another person in that decision of conscience. I have not approved your most recent comments, not because I consider you an apostate. I have not approved them because you have failed to heed my previous direction to you and so… Read more »
Hi ASFT, I think we know each other,..sort of….I was known as Thinking on another forum. Were you then Futureman….if you are I know you are a very nice person. We have shared a joke or two and not exactly butted head but disagreed strongly on things so I won’t add to that. Please..you have wandered the internet…and are now here..perhaps Jehovah is trying to show you something….have you thought of that….sometimes he has had to hit me over the head with a 4 by 4 to wake me up to his direction…..maybe your a bit like me. I’m glad… Read more »
“I do believe that God does give us new writings when the time is ripe. Is the time ripe now? Well I personally do believe so.” Can I ask you something? Why have you come to believe that God will provide new writings and why do you believe that so important? Revelation outlines in considerable detail what will occur in the end times confirmed by prophecies from Daniel, Isaiah, many others AND Jesus. On top of this God sent his Son Jesus to die for us and one of the main things he told us, is to wait for him.… Read more »
To Kev, in response to you about what you said about the apostle Paul as to him having Holy Spirit and so he must be correct in everything, I will say two things. One Paul was not a perfect man and so was prone to making mistakes, and two we have people today who claim to be anointed and have holy spirit and they are not always correct in everything, how could they? The Holy Spirit is their to assist us in progressing towards the truth and towards spiritual perfection, it does not mean that we are automatically correct in… Read more »
A searcher for truth, I’ve watched this exchange all day. I mean no disrespect but what is your endgame here? You have obviously come to a site where people believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. We have brothers and sisters on this site who were moved by this article to talk about the death of their children and you want to debate about inspiration of The Bible. Based on what you have said so far, I’m not sure what led you to this site in the first place. What do you get out of being on… Read more »
No i said that because his knowledge was partial that doesnt mean to say he was wrong in what he wrote .not that because he had holy spirit he was correct in everything .If you went to see an expert lawyer would you cast aside his advice as wrong because hes an imperfect man like me and you .Dear thinkingsis reading your comment my heart goes out to you im so sorry to hear about your experience .warm christian love kev
My dear brother umbertoecho, I am so saddened to hear about the loss of your daughter. I cannot imagine a worse pain than losing a precious child. I have heard that the pain never really goes away, but time is a great healer and it has a way of taking away some of the sting of death so that you can go on with your own life. It must be a daily struggle to deal with that loss. I will pray for you and I hope you can feel all the loving hearts on here who only want to enfold… Read more »
Dear imacountrygirl2 I am a woman, but it would be difficult to fathom that, due to the masculinity of my posting name. I am grateful for your compassion especially as it has no ulterior motive attached to it, but is expressed quite sincerely and in a sharing manner. I do not intend to promote myself as sad sack. Neither am I corralling sympathy. Having said this, I am very relieved to have been able to safely tell a little of my story in order that perhaps, all of us can open up on levels of intimacy that are often squashed… Read more »
That person that told you that Umbertoecho doesn’t know his bible……Jacob refused to be consoled over the thought of losing Joseph…..did he lack faith!!!! We must not become like these ones….they mouth of about things they do not know….so much damage is done to honest hearted individuals in the cong. We have become as you say an aloof and cold faith….so far removed from our father. They are the modern day Pharisees,….that is not going to change….but we can be there for those standing hurt and bewildered in the shadows with in the cong….ones like us can aid them to… Read more »
thinkingsis, I forgot this about Jacob. Yes you are right! At the time as I was in a weak state of mind and becoming cautious of having a difference of opinion with my study conductors. They have been in the “truth” for……….ever, it seems. They were so implacable in their approach to the organization and it’s teachings. They never liked to talk too much about the life of Jesus here on earth and what the implications of his mission on this earth meant for the rest of humanity. I started to notice the message of love from Christ in one… Read more »
thinkingsis My sister has just left her husband. They have been prodigiously JWs all of their lives and have fanatically condemned everyone not in the “truth”. After 50+ years within this religion she has managed to make her life very confusing. The reason for this is that as a mother with a mothers love of her children, when her son was disfellowshipped he was not spoken to at any of the meetings which he attended without fail for over seven years (to my knowledge). This lack of communication at such meetings, led him to become very socially awkward and caused… Read more »
umbertoecho, that is a very sad story but unfortunately there are many examples of this type of thing within the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses and other belief systems.
Hi Umbertoecho, I am so so sorry for your anguish and pain. I don’t know if I should answer here but I do not know the site well enough or you brothers and sisters here. So I’m going to go ahead anyway. Many go out into the world after being disciplined..not because they want to but because they will physically die if they stay any longer in isolation with in the cong. My beautiful son did just that…each day my husband and would stay home with him and watch him like a hawk. My husband is and unbeleiver. He would… Read more »
To ThinkingSis and Umbertoecho, Your stories are heart-rending. There are no words to express the grief and pain you have suffered. You speak well in saying that it is a refining. (Romans 9:22, 23) . . .If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, 23 in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, These verses apply in principle to situations like you both have suffered. Jehovah can restore all… Read more »
Thank you brother.
Thank you Meleti, It was on the 11th of this month that my Emma died five years ago. Sorry for being a little bit evil, but I liked the 2 Thess 1:6-10 bit. It sort of….shored me up a little, put a little heat in my soul. Having said this, I do not EVER want to be a vengeful sort of person. And am aware that it is very unhealthy to bear grudges and continue on with a grudge. Christ didn’t do this, right up until his death He was/is the model of the power of love and faith. I… Read more »
That is a beautiful name Emma, I have a niece with that name. Ones like us and there are many Umbertoecho now truly understand Jehovahs time line…..a day for a year. It may be five years but feels just like five days or even yesterday. For me tho two years it is just like two days ago. I smiled at your scripture brother….you are not evil…just a loving father……hey I was so full of anger at the time I wanted to go around and physically flog those two brothers…..I was so full of unbeleivable anger they wouldn’t have stood a… Read more »
thinkingsis, Very true, Moses did have about forty years of refinement, so there may be hope for me/us yet. We are imperfect and have trouble controlling our emotions at times. Your loss is very, very recent, and for the first two or three years of losing Emma, I am sure that I went literally crazy with grief. I started searching for the local witness hall and studying with a couple who were initially quite gentle. I had been raised in this religion as a child but had been head strong and found it so difficult to be “different” from those… Read more »
I’m bit ashamed to say this but I even bargained with Jehovah as I stood over my sons grave,l knew he could resurrect him in a nano second…. I explained to him ( just like he didn’t already know ) what good it would do…how many on seeing the miracle would listen and come into the truth. Yeah talk about crazy with greif. Later around the table with the rest of the family I told them what I’d said to Jah. We all laughed a bit…imagining him walking back into town and everyone freaking out. I’ll tell him that when… Read more »
By the way, if any of the brothers and sisters congregating here wish to open up a private dialogue with another, please email me and I will arrange for the exchange of email addresses.
Also, If you are members on the discussion board you may use the PM (private messaging) feature, although I think you have to have made at least 3 posts before you can do so.
Apollos
thinkingsis,
My heart and prayers go out to you and your family. Jehovah and Jesus are certainly proud of you for maintaining your love for them throughout such a personal tragedy. I rejoice thinking about the day you will see your son again.
I want to deeply thank you for mentioning Perimeno in your comment. I had not heard of that site before, but I have now found very encouraging content that impacts me directly. I will continue to wait on Jehovah knowing that He will act at His appointed time.
Warm Christian love,
KeepOnSeeking
Perimeno is a anointed brother, he is very kind and gentle.
It would seem that Jehovah is using such ones to encourage and gather his scattered sheep, whether that is in a spiritual or literal sense.
Just like this site…..are you anointed Meleti.?……..anyway..precious brothers indeed…a life line for many of us.
I’m so happy he helped you, I have devoured his site as I will eventually here too.
Thank you for the kind words. To answer your question, I don’t subscribe to the Governing Body teaching that there is a small class of spirit anointed Christians and an enormous class of “other sheep”. I began to partake of the emblems last memorial when for the first time I realized that Jesus’ command to partake was directed to all his followers, not just a privileged few. I believe all those who reach out for it, receive his spirit for it is the spirit that opens our minds and guides us into all the truth. We worship in spirit and… Read more »
Okay ..you have me at a bit of a disadvantage here….my fault not yours..as I have not read all of your articles.
I can get the belief off, all of us are meant to partake.
I certainly know that his Holy Spirit can open up the scriptures and we don’t need the GB for that.
No matter what they say..
A question….do you beleive there are 144.000 that will rule in heaven as kings along side Jesus.?
Good question. I believe the number of 144,000 is symbolic. The number 12 comes up repeatedly in Revelation both by itself or in multiples: The city’s wall measured 144 cubits The city’s width measured 12,000 Stadia There were 12 different jewels making up its foundation. It had 12 gates made of 12 pearls and guarded by 12 angels. It had 12 foundation stones with the names of the 12 apostles. The 144,000 are from 12 tribes of 12,000 each. The woman had a crown of 12 stars. The trees of life produce 12 crops of fruit. There are 24 thrones… Read more »
Like you say, there is so much we don’t know and I firmly believe we are in for some very big surprises.
I understand about the literal and non literal numbers in Rev….I guess it will be a wait and see job.
As for taking of the partaking at the memorial…I can see both sides of the coin……just not sure with that one.
Perimeno beleives as you do.
It would seem that is why there is such a big increase at the memorial.
We are all progressing at different levels and stages….an interesting journey..
thinkingsis, Your story is so comparable to mine, that it has shocked me, yet made me feel relief. If this sounds a tad off beat…….no, no, it doesn’t and I believe from what I have read in your posts, that your powers of comprehension are very well developed along with your spiritual and emotional generosity. I thank your for your utter candor and hope that there will be some truly sound discussions for us to have. Like you, I do not tend to bear a grudge. But! I don’t have to blindly accept bad treatment either, I am humane with… Read more »
Hi KYP, There certainly is something seriously wrong with our judicial system. When in the hands of men who abuse their power it actually causes some to commit suicide. Tho my son was never baptized, he was disciplined ruthlessly and appallingly. Eventually he took his own life. Sadly I’m sure he was not the first nor will be the last. That’s why I loved this article so much…the way it was laid out and explained was so obvious and factual. I will certainly be printing this off and hopefully in time be able to share it carefully with some. Off… Read more »
I am so very sorry for your loss. We are so ill equipped in the organization to deal with situations like his because we are taught to follow men’s rules rather than our Father’s overriding principle of doing all things out of love. There have been four recent, unrelated suicides in a neighboring town. I don’t know all the circumstances, but I do know that in one case, the situation was made worse by the way the brothers handled the situation. This is likely a far more widespread problem than we’d like to admit. There was a video at our… Read more »
Thank you for your kindness brother. Yes I have seen that video you are talking about, I don’t know if it’s still up on line or the society has had it taken down. You know brother before all this happened I was known for my diplomatic ways. I’m not so diplomatic anymore…I’m fairly straight to the point in serious situations now. I’m sorry but that video…. I’m really trying here brother…but well I’ve just got to say it how it is….it was a insult to those that suffer depression. The ignorance of the society was blatantly obvious. To the point… Read more »
“I’m sorry brother, I guess this reply isn’t what you would like to hear.” Not at all. I completely agree with you. Your assessment of the video coincides with mine. The worst part of it is that after seeing it, most elders will think that all we need to do to help brothers suffering from depression is pay them a visit and read a few scriptures. It’s the spiritual/emotional equivalent to James words at James 2:16. Perhaps if we were truly trained in the deep things of God and if our meetings were used to teach us about love and… Read more »
Well here then I have proven my point here. Because I do not have a whole hearted faith in the Bible, I am considered and Apostate here. Jesus did not say to follow the Bible, but to follow him and that the “Spirit of Truth” would show us the “Way” as to how to do that. And it could use a variety of sources including the writings of the Bible to do that. As for me belonging here or not, I am in the perfect place, as surely you must realize by now that all who frequent this site would… Read more »
2 John 8-11 and Galatians 1:6-9 define what an apostate is. These verses do not coincide with the definition the Watchtower Society puts on the word. However, the only definition we care about on this site is the Scriptural one. Not having faith in the Bible doesn’t make one an apostate. You are putting words in our mouth. Preaching good news other than that taught in the Bible and teaching as truth things that are odds with the truth revealed in the Bible makes one an apostate. You may try the shoe on and if it fits, you don’t need… Read more »
Meleti, It appears that you are going around in a circle here. This is my observation anyway. You had stated that not having faith in the Bible does not make one an apostate, but then went on to indicate that because I suggest things here on this site that maybe somewhat contrary I am preaching something different to what the “Good News” is, I am as good as an apostate, and not one to be associating with here on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. In fact you more-or-less accuse me of incriminating myself as an apostate, because… Read more »
Seriously? You don’t see the difference between simply not having faith in something and promoting a falsehood? That is the basis for suggesting I may be going around I’m circles?
A searcher for truth… Can you prove the other writings you believe in are more valid than the bible? Mormons have their own inspired writings, should we accept them? Also some religions accept apocryphal books like book of Enoch etc. I’ve read some of these and they are interesting and entertaining. Also as we saw recently in the revised new world translation some translators have decided to remove entire portions of the gospel that were previously included. So really this argument is pointless. The discussion isn’t about the bible canon, but about faith in Christ and following his teachings. We… Read more »
To Sargon, no I cannot prove it categorically and so you will just have to read it and decide for yourself on that one. I cannot decide this for you. It has to resonate with you personally as truth, or possible truth. I do know this, that quite a few who profess to be Christians, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, have read it and are somewhat impressed as to what it contains. One of the biggest stumbling blocks to accepting it’s information however for many is it’s view on the ransom sacrifice as this is central to much of the Christian belief… Read more »
When we dialogued earlier, I hadn’t realized that you are denying the ransom. Not only denying it but promoting the idea that it isn’t needed. If you wanted to know what the bible definition of apostasy is, you’ve just found it.
It does seem these days, including back then that everyone had their idea of what apostasy is, but the scripture in John only speaks of denying that Jesus had come in the flesh and receiving a resurrection as the criteria of apostasy so sorry your determination of me as an apostate does not fit here in this equation.. As for Jesus sacrifice , I am not denying the sacrifice of Jesus as being an expression of his and God’ love for all of us humans, but am questioning the validity of the statement “ransom sacrifice” as in satisfying God’s sense… Read more »
ASFT, Why are you still here? You don’t believe in the ransom which is clearly taught in the Bible. You don’t believe Jesus died to atone for our sins. This is all Bible 101. This is the most basic of Bible teachings. This is the good news. If you cannot and will not grasp this, then why come here? There are other places on the web where people love to hear each other talk; places where a person can spout baseless opinions to their hearts content. Go there. Enjoy yourself. You have nothing to contribute here because you speak of… Read more »
Dear Meleti, This is really a great article, I liked reading it very much and agree with most thoughts. Some months ago, I was surprised, how many brothers come to the exactly same conclusions regarding the disfellowshipping issue. And now I see that you drew the same conclusions, which I think is a good sign. You mention the Jewish system getting into the JW structure. Many laws within our (JW) organisation are much much harder than the corresponding Jewish laws. So Jesus says, that he fulfills the Jewish law and replaces it, Paul gives us strong counsel not to get… Read more »
Beautifully written and explained so simply….oh ..if we only lived under these guidelines….a light yoke….and my son would still be alive…..I am deeply grateful for this explanation
Did you experience a personal tragedy?
Yes I I I have replied to you but I don’t want it to go public….you may not have even got it as I am finding it a bit difficult to get into the site and pass the dashboard…I sure I’ll get there eventually brother
Once when I was before a committee for fornication and I admitted that yes me and this non-witness had slept together. Not only was that apparently not a good enough answer but they continued to ask me what I know now were completely inappropriate questions. One brother in particular had a problem with the fact I did not seem ” repentant enough” to the point where I could see he was visibly angry with me, the other two elders seemed confused at this. I don’t know where I got the courage, maybe it was Jesus maybe it was anger, but… Read more »
A very thorough and interesting article. I particularly like your research on 1 Corinthians 5:9-11. The way Paul puts it across is excellent and as you say is speaking of not going out of your way to mingle with someone who principally can be considered bad association. Even so, the onus seems to be on the individuals to exercise good judgement, since we are free people, not under law. The rebuke given “by the majority” is sufficient, as Paul himself says. The more serious sin of apostasy is singled out as the only time to put a very clear distance… Read more »
I recall an event where a young brother in his twenties was suffering from a social disorder (he was born that way). His mom always encouraged him to go to the hall, but she was bedridden, yet he always went faithfully. He was allowed to be baptized and was a fine brother, despite some people “fearing” him or gossiping about him (not understanding the nature of his condition). When his mom died, he was alone as a jehovah’s witness in a family of catholics and with grandparents that were apostates (in the bad sense). It was really hard on him,… Read more »
Yes meleti thanks very much ive come to the same conclusions on every single one of your points regarding this topic.Following the bible now has become apostasy in the eyes of the organisation The brothers are watchtower students not bible students and the way its going all must thrust their bible trained conscience aside to remain in it ..Kev r
The Bible is the ultimate piece of apostate literature. That is why the Catholic church banned it. We can’t get away with that today, but we can pressure brothers to use only our version and view all others as questionable. Of course, you can only sanitize the Bible so much to fit with a particular ideology, so we also condemn private or independent bible research, the study of Greek and Hebrew (as was done in the 2012 district convention), and web sites like this one. Only by learning the Bible through the lens of the Organization’s publications can we truly… Read more »
Excellent post. One of the best and most exhaustive posts I’ve ever read on the subject. The Judicial committee arrangement in place by the GB robs JWs including elders of the opportunity to become mature Christians. They should be able to use Bible principles and their perceptive powers to discern when they need to cease associating with certain people. The countless rules and textbook direction on how to read hearts prevents people from making spiritual progress. Obviously the congregations are too dumb to make wise choices and must be told exactly what to do when it comes to handling sin.… Read more »
I’d forgotten all about the judicial restrictions issue. You’re quite right. It is nothing but punitive. I’ve known of congregations that left a brother or sister languishing under restrictions for over a year.
One more example of going beyond the things written.
Yes. I was put on restriction, (no commenting at the meetings, couldn’t be on the school) The brothers eventually lifted the restriction on my commenting, but I believe they’ve forgotten all about the Theocratic Ministry School restriction. Fact of the matter is, it doesn’t bother me one bit…I probably wouldn’t write “regulation talks” anyway, and that would open up a great can of worms…….
That should read, “A great big can of worms……”
Meleti this was a very organized and Bible based article. I find it especially revealing that an Elder wrote it . It cements in my mind that not all of the Elders’ are robots and believe that many levels of the Judicial process is unscriptural. It is a running joke among some of my family members regarding the nature of the questions that are asked in sexual immorality cases. I remember my sister coming home crying from a judicial case because she said she felt violated. It was bad enough that she felt like she disappointed my father, but some… Read more »
There are many good elders out there, but they have to tread very carefully. Trying to live by Bible standards of love and mercy have gotten many an elder removed for “promoting disunity”. I have come to realize that “unity” is the word we use in place of “traditions”. Many times we are urged to take a course of action within the body to preserve unity. In fact, what we are preserving are the traditions of men. However, “tradition” has a negative connotation in our Organization because Jesus condemned the Pharisees for the traditions, so we have created a euphemism… Read more »
I remember one instance where a young, pretty sister was to be questioned about sexual immorality. One of the elders was trying very hard to be appointed to the judicial committee. His interest seemed almost lurid in nature.I was able to block him from getting on the committee by getting myself appointed instead. As committee chairman, I was able to control the questioning to avoid the type of intrusive and humiliating interrogation that you describe. I look back on it all now with regret that I was ever a part of all that, but I didn’t know any better at… Read more »
I do not know how they justify the importance of knowing very intimate details to decide a case. Isn’t knowing that the person is confessing the sin sufficient enough? If there is some truth to what my sister and others have said regarding their JC then the questions truly are outrageous. Meleti, it saddens me that you are no longer serving as an Elder. Your congregation is truly missing out and I am sure they have expressed that. This site alone is a demonstration of the spiritual treasures that you have stored up. It saddens me even more that the… Read more »
I’m so glad to hear that. I really am.
Actually, being free of much of the work of being an elder has helped me lately as the amount of work in maintaining the site has increased. At least hear we get to speak freely.
Thankfully I haven’t been forced to do anything objectionable as an MS yet. I plan to eventually transfer with the hope that I will not be recommended for reappointment. I am trying my best not to make myself available to become an elder. I don’t want to have to tell them why I’m declining.
Meleti, I anticipate someday arriving at the place you’ve arrived at (elder resignation). I keep rolling around in my mind my “exit strategy” for stepping aside…… those who’ve never served have no idea of the perilous waters an elder is swimming in when he attempts to resign. Here’s a scenario: A brother who has volunteered of his personal time for decades serving as an elder and making himself available for other areas of oversight, RBC, assembly parts, reaches a point in his life where he has the time, and the resources to enjoy some traveling. Perhaps occasionally overseas, and perhaps… Read more »
It is sad that when an elder resigns for reasons other than health issues (much of which may be attributed to the stress of serving) all his faithful years are dismissed, and he becomes a nobody. An ex-elder who isn’t reaching out to serve again is viewed behind closed doors as a deadbeat loser. I know, because I’ve been on bodies that have spoken of former elders in that light. We are groomed to view the man as lesser than joe publisher, because the former elder knows what he should be doing. Other religious organizations accept a man’s resignation after… Read more »
I couldn’t agree with you more. It is said that a believer becomes like the God he worships. We depict Jehovah as a god who wants sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice. Do more in service, do more in the congregation, you can never do enough. Give, give, give if you want to be saved. So when one can’t serve like before he or she is devalued and marginalized. We say with our mouth and our pen (printing press) that this is not the case, that Jehovah values the service given. This is true, of course, but for us, these are just words.… Read more »
I agree with much of your article here, but what indeed does determine one to be an “Apostate”? For instance I have reasoned on this forum in the past that the Urantia book can be of value for us Christians today, and have also stated that while I do not believe that the entire Bible Cannon in itself can be classified as God’s word, I have clearly stated that I view much of it’s texts as being of value for all Christians today and particularly the Gospel writings about Jesus and what he taught, yet I do believe that at… Read more »
Rather than give a hasty answer, I’ll be preparing another post on the topic of Apostasy.
Hi A searcher for truth Quite simply, my understanding is that apostacy is determined by the words preached. As long as you refrain from offering something as truth, when it is not supported by scripture, or qualify what you say based on scripture then it is not necesssarily apostacy. I’m not sure what parts of the bible cannon you question, or how you have determined that they do not qualify, since the 66 books which are generally accepted are already a slightly reduced subset of the potential number of books/letters that could potentially be included. Moreover, I’m not sure why… Read more »
But this is the response of the Apostle John, in this regard. 1 John 4 1 ¶ Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world. 2 By this know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. 3 And every spirit which does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the antichrist which you heard is coming, and now is already in… Read more »
I have studied the Bible all my life and have found it to be harmonious and true. I have no reason to doubt it. I have investigated it thoroughly, so why should I now reject it because you claim it was compiled by apostate bishops. Should I take your word or the word of any other man over what is written and proven as God’s Word? The reason I started this forum was to get away from the bald assertions of men with an agenda of their own. Here we let God’s word speak to us, and it is enough.
Okay, I can understand your consternation as a genuine person who wants to do what is right and stick to what you know to be true, personally. I do not personally have an agenda, except the pursuance of what is an accurate knowledge of what is the real truth. But let me ask you this question. When it comes to God and whom he is using to present truth and that is God being a Holy God and one whom cannot abide falsehoods, would he be really using Constantine to set up a convening of bishops, who have deviated from… Read more »
To your first question, you are working on the assumption that the bible was compiled by Constantine and his Bishops. The Bible books predate him by hundreds of years, so your premise is wrong, therefore your conclusions are wrong. On the other, my answer is to quote our Lord Jesus. “You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29) You accept that Almighty God used his unimaginable power to bring about a worldwide flood, yet lack the faith to believe that at the same time he could and did provide for all the… Read more »
Sorry, this turned into a lengthy reply! “Would this not really be the criteria for whom are considered to be “apostates”?” Yes, absolutely. You will notice that I quoted the 2 passages from the letters of John last, partly, because I have seen that some do not accept the writings of Paul. Regardless, they both write the same thing. Anything that deviates from confessing the truth that “Jesus has come in the flesh”, ANYTHING else is falsehood and should be rejected. If ANYONE brings you ANYTHING else, then reject it and them, so you have no share in “his wicked… Read more »
Joel, knowledge is very important as this scripture shows. 1 Timothy 2 3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth. The Truth is progressive and revealed in it’s own time. But that does not mean however that we cannot seek it now to the fullest extent. On the contrary that is what God wants us to do, I do believe. As for the books being compiled, how can it be compiled by it’s authors? Do you even know what compile… Read more »
You are sowing doubt without providing any proof. Many have come to this site because they are tired of listening to the word of men disguised as the voice of God. All who speak truth from God’s word are welcome here. Those who have a message of their own, a human message, should go elsewhere.
You see what you are doing there right, searcher for truth? You are quoting scripture, compiled by men instead of God? 😉 Once you discount the bible as complete and inerrant word of God, then what is your baseline, your personal judgement?
The point is that the bible is the baseline to judge other “inspired words” against.
Your replies about the ark show that you don’t really have faith in God, which makes me sad for you. Maybe you should start discounting Jesus’ miracles too, because how could he keep breaking bread to feed 5,000 people.
Are you quoting from the same author Paul who said “all scripture is inspired” – something you have made plain that you disagree with? Regardless, I am afraid you are twisting this scripture out of context. “3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” Please look up the Greek word rendered “the knowledge” or “full knowledge”: epignwsin which means “recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement” You will notice that if you continued to read verse… Read more »
Searcher for truth when you qouted 1 corintians 13 what do you think it means when that which is perfect arrives in relation to verse 12 when we will see face to face and then will fully know as we are fully known .when would this take place also whats your take on 2 timothy 3 where it says that the scriptures are able to completely equip the man of god for every good work . Thanks kev
Yes I would agree with that, except I do not agree that all scripture is inspired of God. That is what the Jewish people believed as taught by their Jewish leaders. Paul in his past, was a well educated Jew and a Pharisee at that. Paul was not correct in everything, how could he? As his own knowledge was partial. Should we be putting faith in Paul and following him? 1 Corinthians 3 4 For when one may say, Truly I am of Paul, and another, I of Apollos; are you not fleshly? 5 ¶ What then is Paul? And… Read more »
We’ve been down this path before, A searcher for truth. This forum is for those who believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. If you wish to learn why we believe that, you’re welcome to stay. However, if you are convinced otherwise and want to convince us of the same thing, then we have to obey the direction of 2 John 10, 11.
Searcher for truth you say paul was not correct in everything because his knowledge was partial . I Honestly feel that just because his knowledge was partial that doesnt mean to say he was wrong in what he wrote . He did have holy spirit and that was evident in his deeds according to luke who traced all things with accuracy .he was also a chosen vessel to bear the name of jesus to the nations acts 9 v 15 .Even when seeming to express a personal opinion i dont think that automatically means that the words do not represent… Read more »
Also searcher for truth you say should we be putting faith in paul and following him . But paul said what are he and apollos just ministers through whom others believed I don’t think that listening and accepting all of pauls writings as inspired constitutes putting faith in him as his intent was clearly to bring others to christ not himself which is which I believe is the thrust of his message at these verses. That’s my opinion. Kev
” I do not agree that all scripture is inspired of God. That is what the Jewish people believed as taught by their Jewish leaders. Paul in his past, was a well educated Jew and a Pharisee at that. ” Yet you regularly quote Paul’s writings “Yes Paul was very wise and versed in the scriptures as well as being led by the Spirit of God but he was not all knowing, that is for sure.” So he knew what he was talking about, except when you disagree with him? “But what is in the scriptures is adequate enough to… Read more »
This is a true act of love on your part Meleti. I can feel the terrible struggle you must have gone through to acknowledge that the Governing Body has misled the congregation into acting contrary to Jesus own words, in a fair and unbiased way. Some things you just can’t sugar coat. And when you are speaking the truth, it stands on its own, it is not criticism in my view. Whether we accept the real truth is up to each one of us individually. From personal experience, it is excruiciatingly painful when you try to sit at the top… Read more »
Thank you Meleti for this concise piece of writing. I know there are many die hard’s who would refuse this information; I also know many who will be reading this and praying that something will change within the org. This site has helped me so much in a time when I felt so left out and alone.
This is one of the finest articles I’ve ever read. Thank you so much for breaking things down into sections. You’ve given me so much to consider.
Why oh why do we continue to sidestep the clear directions from the Scriptures on how to respond to wrongdoers?
As you say, we are bringing more reproach on Jehovah by our unloving actions than the wrongdoer did by his.
Thank you again for the time and energy you put into running this site. It is sincerely appreciated.
A big thank you for your hard work on this outstanding article Meleti. You have been very thorough with the scriptures and separated the issues in a new way to me. I can certainly testify to the accuracy of every situation you have used by way of example. You have both affirmed my existing concerns and raised some new lines of thinking for consideration.
I know this took a lot of work and thought. I am sure that many will benefit from it.
Apollos