This Generation

“I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mat. 24:34 NET Bible)

At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual and have revealed them to babes. (Mat. 11:25 NWT)

It seems that with each passing decade, a new interpretation of Matthew 24:34 is published in The Watchtower. We will be studying the latest iteration this coming weekend. The necessity for all these “adjustments” flows from our focus on using this verse as a means to calculate how close the end is. Sadly, these prophetic failures have undermined the value of this important assurance given us by Christ. What he said, he said for a reason. Our Organization, in its craving to provoke a state of extreme urgency among the rank and file, has sequestered the value of Christ’s words to its own ends—specifically, to inspire greater loyalty to our leaders.
The correct application of Christ’s assurance—his guarantee if you will—has puzzled Bible readers and scholars for centuries. I myself took a stab at it back in December with an article in which I believed I had found a way, with the help of others, of making all the pieces fit. The result was a tight and factually consistent (from this writer’s point of view at least) understanding that was intellectually very satisfying to me—at least at first. However, as the weeks went by, I found that it was not emotionally satisfying. I kept thinking about Jesus’ words at Matthew 11:25 (see above). He knew his disciples. These were the babes of the world; the little children. The spirit would reveal truth to them what the wise and intellectual could not see.
I began to look for a simpler explanation.
As I stated in my December article, if even one premise on which any argument is based is wrong, what seems to be as solid as a brick building becomes nothing more than a house of cards. One of the key premises for my understanding was that “all these things” referred to in Mat. 24:34 included everything prophesied by Jesus in verses 4 thru 31. (Incidentally, that is also the official understanding of our Organization.) I now see reason to doubt that, and that changes everything.
I will explain.

What the Disciples Asked

“Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?” (Mat. 24:3 Young’s Literal Translation)

They were asking when the temple would be destroyed; something Jesus had just prophesied would happen. They were also asking for signs; signs to denote his arrival in kingly power (his presence, Greek: parousia); and signs to signal the end of the world.
It is very likely that the disciples imagined these events to be either concurrent or that they would all fall within a short space of time.

Jesus’ Response—A Warning

Jesus could not disabuse them of this notion without letting the cat out of the bag and revealing things there were not meant to know. Like his Father, Jesus knew the heart of man. He could see the danger presented by a misplaced zeal for knowing the times and the seasons of God; the damage to faith that prophetic disconfirmation could cause. So instead of directly answering their question, he first addressed this human weakness by issuing a series of warnings.
Vs. 4 “Watch out that no one misleads you.”
They had just asked when the end of the world would come, and the first words out of his mouth are “watch out that no one misleads you”? That says a lot. His concern was for their welfare. He knew that the issue of his return and the end of the world would be the means by which many could be misled—would be misled. In fact, that’s precisely what he says next.
Vs. 5 “For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many.”
We do well to bear in mind that “Christ” means “anointed one”. So many would claim to be the anointed one of Jesus and would use this self-appointment to mislead many. However, if a self-proclaimed anointed one is to mislead, he must have a message. This puts the next verses into context.
Vs. 6-8 “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these things are the beginning of birth pains.
Jesus is specifically warning his disciples not to be misled into thinking he is at the door when they see wars, earthquakes and the like, especially if some self-appointed anointed one (Christ, Greek: Christos) is telling them these events have special prophetic significance.
From the time of Christ Jesus, there have been many times when Christians have been led to believe the end of the world had arrived due to the impact of natural and manmade catastrophes. For example, it was a common belief in Europe following the 100-years war and during the Black Plague that the end of the world had arrived. To see just how often Christians have failed to heed Jesus’ warning and just how many false Christs (anointed ones) have surfaced over the centuries, check out this Wikipedia topic.
Since wars, earthquakes, famines and pestilences have been going on for centuries, these do not constitute a sign of Christ’s imminent arrival.
Next Jesus warns his disciples of the trials that will befall them.
Vs. 9, 10 “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. 10 Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another and hate one another.”
All these things would befall his disciples and history shows that from his death, down to our day, true Christians have been persecuted and betrayed and hated.
Since the persecution of Christians has been going on for centuries, this does not constitute a sign of Christ’s return.
Vs. 11-14 “And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, 12 and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Not claiming to be anointed ones (false Christs) these prophets nevertheless make false predictions causing many to be misled. The prevalence of lawlessness into the Christian congregation causes many to lose their love. (2 Thess. 2:6-10) We need look no farther than the atrocious war record of Christendom to see these words of our Lord were, and are, fulfilled. With all these dire prediction, Jesus now gives words of encouragement by saying that endurance is the key to salvation.
Finally, he predicts that the good news will be preached in all the nations before the end comes.
The presence of false prophets, the loveless and lawless state of the Christian congregation, and the preaching of the good news has been occurring from the time of Christ down to our day. Therefore, these words do not constitute a sign of his impending presence.

Jesus Answers the First Question

Vs. 15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation– spoken about by Daniel the prophet – standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)…”
This is the answer to the first part of their question. That’s it! One verse! What follows doesn’t tell them when these things will be, but rather what to do when they occur; something they never asked about, but something they needed to know. Again, Jesus is loving his disciples and providing for them.
After giving them instructions on how to escape from the wrath coming upon Jerusalem, together with a reassurance that a window of opportunity for escape will open up (vs. 22), Jesus then goes on to again talk about false Christs and false prophets. However, this time he links the misleading nature of their teachings to his presence.

A New Warning

Vs. 23-28 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 Remember, I have told you ahead of time. 26 So then, if someone says to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe him. 27 For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Is Jesus finally coming round to answering the second and third part of his disciples’ question? Not yet. Apparently, the danger of being misled is so great that he again warns them of it. However, this time those who would mislead are not using catastrophic events like wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes. No! Now these false prophets and false anointed ones are performing what they call great signs and wonders and claiming to know where Christ is. They proclaim he is already present, already ruling, but in a hidden way. The rest of the world will not know this, but the faithful who will follow these ones will be let in on the secret. “He is out in the wilderness,” they say, or “hidden in some secret inner chamber.” Jesus tell us to give them no hearing ear. He tells us that we not will need some self-proclaimed messiah to tell us when his presence has arrived. He compares it to sky lightening. You don’t even have to be looking directly at the sky to know that this type of lightening has flashed. To drive home that point, he uses yet another analogy that would be well within the experience of all his listeners. Anyone can see birds of carrion circling from a great distance. No one has to interpret that sign for us to know there is a dead body below. One needs no special knowledge, not membership in some exclusive club, to recognize a flash of lightening or a group of circling birds. Likewise, his presence will be self-evident to the world, not just his disciples.

Jesus Answers Parts 2 and 3

Vs. 29-31 “Immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now Jesus gets to answering the second and third parts of the question. The sign of his presence and of the end of the age will include the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars. (Since stars cannot literally fall from heaven, we will have to wait and see how this is fulfilled just as the first century Christians had to wait to see who the disgusting thing really was.) It will include the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens, and then finally, the visible manifestation of Jesus arriving in the clouds.
(It is noteworthy aside that Jesus gives his disciples no direction for their salvation as he did for the time of Jerusalem’s destruction. Perhaps this is because that part is already taken care of by the angelic-directed ‘gathering of the chosen’. – Mat. 24:31)

Vs. 32-35 “Learn this parable from the fig tree: Whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
No self-proclaimed anointed one, nor self-appointed prophet is needed for anyone to know that summer is near. This is what Jesus is saying in vs. 32. Anyone can read the seasonal signs. He then says that you, not your leaders, or some guru, or some Pope, or some Judge, or some Governing Body, but you can see for yourself by the signs that he is near, “right at the door”.
The signs indicating Jesus is right at the door, his kingly presence imminent, are listed in verses 29 thru 31. They are not the events that he warns us about misreading; the events he lists in verses 4 thru 14. Those events have been ongoing since the days of the apostles, so they couldn’t constitute a sign of his presence. The events of verses 29 thru 31 have yet to occur and will only occur once. They are the sign.
Therefore, when he adds in verse 34 that a single generation will witness “all these things”, he is referring to the things spoken of in verses 29 to 31 only.
This leads one to the inevitable conclusion that the occurrence of these signs will occur over a span of time. Thus the need for a reassurance. The tribulation that came upon Jerusalem in the first century lasted for years. It is hard to believe that the destruction of the entire global system of things will be an overnight affair.
Hence the need for Jesus reassuring words.

In Conclusion

If I say that I’m part of the hippie generation, you will not conclude that I was born in the late 60’s, nor will you believe that I was a 40-year old when the Beatles released their Sgt. Pepper’s album. You will understand that I was of a particular age at a particular time in history. That generation is gone, even though those who made it up are still alive. When the average person speaks of a generation, he isn’t speaking of a span of time measured by a collective lifetime. The figure of 70 or 80 years doesn’t come to mind. If you say Napolean’s generation or Kennedy’s generation, you know that you are referring to events that identify a relatively brief period of history. This is the common meaning and it takes no doctrinal degree nor scholarly research to define it. It is the understanding that the “little children” get instinctively.
Jesus has hidden the meaning of his words from the wise and intellectual ones. His warning words have all come true and many have been misled into believing the false prophecies of self-appointed, self-anointed ones. However, when the time comes to apply the words of Matthew 24:34—when we will really need a divine reassurance that if we just hold on that our salvation will arrive, and will not be late—the little ones, the infants, the babes, will get it.
Matthew 24:34 is not there to give us a means to calculate how close the end is. It is not there to provide us with a way to get around the injunction at Acts 1:7. It is there to give us a guarantee, one with divine backing, that once we start to see the signs, the end will come within that generation—a relatively brief period of time that we can endure.

Archived Comments

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Comment by niteflyer on 2014-04-02 18:04:52
An interesting possibility. But what about the words "Immediately after the suffering of those days"? Which "those days" is Jesus referring to?
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-02 18:58:06
  An interesting question and one I was hoping someone would ask, so thank you, niteflyer.
  The NWT uses "tribulation". Personally, I like that better, though "suffering" also works. It is just that tribulation is used throughout the Christian Scriptures in connection with the congregation to refer to a suffering that results in a test or trial that refines.
  Our official JW take on this is that it refers to the great tribulation (phase one) which we believe refers to the worldwide destruction of false religion with Jehovah's Witnesses standing on the sidelines safe and sound and smiling blissfully. If that turns out to be the case, then there will be a group of individuals that will surface at that time to take on the role of false Christs and false prophets. I used to think that fulfillment would happen, but I'm not so sure anymore.
  The reason for my change of belief is that verses 23 to 26 have been fulfilled repeatedly down through the ages and are being fulfilled right now, with us being the chief protagonists, though others also are filling the role. We have been saying that Christ's presence began 100 years ago, but invisibly. He is in the wilderness or in the inner chamber, hidden from view except to a select few; namely, us. We are taught that by a group who claim to be anointed (Christos) to the exclusion of all others. This falsehood has misled us multiple times resulting in a letdown and loss of faith by many. That is not how Jesus works.
  Verse 29 says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." The word "tribulation" occurs just short of 40 times in the Christian Scriptures. In virtually every instance it refers to testing, trial, or stress that affects Christians and has a refining effect. The testing and refining of Christians has continued right down to our day. It will only end when Christ's comes. So verse 29 is telling us that we will be tested until he arrives.
  I believe that is what he meant to communicate.

Comment by Joel on 2014-04-02 18:47:07
Really appreciate this article, because I think you have distilled the verses very well and far better than my own notes. As I read and re-read it the one thing that stood out like a beacon for me, were verses 6-8.
"6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. 7For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these things are the beginning of birth pains."
It ran contrary to what I was taught. First, "wars an reports of wars" do not signal the end, because "the end is still to come".
and then "All these things are the beginning", i.e. they do not signal the end
This helped me to appreciate that I had been missing - a lot!

Comment by bobhewson on 2014-04-02 20:42:45
Greetings,
There is some discussion as to the standing of the writers of "Beroean Pickets" can you please confirm your understanding of your situation?
I have been told that you are basically JW's that have concerns with your organizations interpretation on different matters and you then publish these concerns on line under "Beroean Pickets"! Is this the true situation or are you in fact ex-JW's that are just trying to knock the society?
Please supply me with an honest answer as i am very interested.
Regards,
Bob
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-03 00:46:57
  Could you tell us amongst whom this discussion is going on?
  To answer your question, both Apollos and I as well as the moderators of Beroean Pickets and discussthetruth.com are all JWs in good standing. Some of us serve as elders, though others out of a personal, conscientious decision have decided to step down from positions of oversight in the congregation.
  We love the brotherhood and we love truth. Anyone reading the articles on the site will see that our position is based solely on what the Scriptures say. At times this brings our understanding into conflict with the official position of the Governing Body on matters. While we have respect for those men, we cannot endorse any teaching that stands in conflict with the inspired word of God while maintaining loyalty to our King, Jesus Christ. Our main purpose is deeper Bible understanding.
  Unfortunately, the current climate in the Organization does not tolerate independent Bible study, and were we to openly share what we have learned, we would likely be disfellowshipped. It doesn't matter that we can support out understanding from Scripture. What matters lately, more than ever before, is complete obedience to those taking the lead.

Comment by Sargon on 2014-04-02 22:54:08
What scriptural basis do we have as Jehovah's witnesses to teach that the fall of babylon the great and the great tribulation are related? I have yet to find any.

Comment by JB on 2014-04-03 03:33:01
This is one of the most interesting and informative articles I came across about this subject. Thank you for this.
- Reply by John on 2014-04-03 11:31:40
  Agreed. My initial reaction was "Wow. This is the simplest and most direct explanation I've ever seen." It actually makes sense. I have a deep respect for your Bible research and appreciate the time and effort that you have put into sharing this with us.

Comment by on 2014-04-03 06:24:39
Thanks meleti .seems more believable than the current watchtower interpretation .your application of verse 4 to 8 are interesting .You are going tlo hear of wars ect by whom it probably is by those who are trying to mislead .The false prophets and christs I think there is no doubt that the sign of jesus prescence verse 3 has to be the one mentioned at verses 29 to 30 and not the wars ect as we have been lead to believe . I have thought that for a long time actually . I think the lighting mentioned at verse 27 shows two things about his coming that it is clearly discernable to all and also it will be quick to happen without warning like his illustration of the thief .I also think when looking at mark 13 v30to 32 shows the futility of trying to calculate the time based on jesus use of this generation for he clearly said he did not know the day or the hour So his use of the word cannot possibly be used to calculate time . The whole generation thing has been a real red herring . However i feel that this generation he was speaking of could mean more than just a generation that lives through a certain period of time and thats based on it use in matthew 23 as ive said before on this site . Kev
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-03 08:08:50
  Thanks, Kev. You raise an interesting point.
  Matthew 23:35 speaks of all the righteous blood spilled from Abel to Zechariah. The Jews didn't kill Abel. So it could be argued that Jesus' use of "generation" at vs. 36 applies to a generation that goes beyond the Jews. He could be referring to the generation ("generated ones") or offspring of Satan.
  On the other hand, Jesus speaks of Jerusalem in the next verse. So the generation he's speaking of could also be in the more common use, that is, the Jews who would kill him. That would fit since this same physical generation would still be around to see the city razed.
  However, why make them responsible for the blood of Abel. Perhaps because Abel was killed by Satan's seed. Cain killed his brother because Abel's sacrifice was acceptable to God and Cain's was not. It was about worship of God, religion. Abel became the first martyr or witness.
  So Jesus is making the Jews who would kill him responsible for all the acts of Satan's seed against Jehovah's faithful servants from the start of the conflict right down to his day.
  They are a type or class, i.e., Satan's seed. The physical generation that was alive at that time gets the retribution for all the blood spilled by the type or class to which they belong.
  However, the generation of Matthew 24:34 is connected with his presence if vs. 32 and 33 are anything to go by. So I think he's talking about a different generation, i.e. a different physical group of people. Nevertheless, if you're suggesting that this group of people is made up of Satan's seed, those who oppose God, I see no Scripturally contextual problem with that.
  - Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-04 12:22:39
    "However, why make them responsible for the blood of Abel. Perhaps because Abel was killed by Satan’s seed. Cain killed his brother because Abel’s sacrifice was acceptable to God and Cain’s was not. It was about worship of God, religion. Abel became the first martyr or witness."
    You nailed it Meleti,
    Cain and Abel didn't need to be related in time. In fact our biggest mistake is in continually trying to factor time as though we can spare ourselves by knowing how to measure it. The element of timing events has nothing to do faith. Satan rules time so it's all about whether we are willing to learn as Jesus taught us even through the spirit given after his death and resurrection. Satan is not bound by time. But his demands can bind and scatter us:
    “Satan has demanded to have all of you to sift you as wheat.” (Luke 22:31)
    “All of you will be stumbled . . .” (Matthew 26:31)
    “Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, the Devil, walks about . . .” (1 Peter 5:8)
    “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. . .” (Matthew 16:24)
    “that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.” (2 Corinthians 2:11)
    sw

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-03 08:29:10
In my December article, I postulated that the generation refers to all the anointed from the time of Christ down to our day. Others suggested that it refers to the Jews, and others to a wicked component of the Jews. In this latest article, I'm suggesting that it refers to the people alive (whether anointed, wicked opposers, or just plain folk, makes no matter) at the time of the signs predicted in Matthew 24:29-31.
The plain truth is that none of those definitions really matters in the final analysis. Matthew 24:34 is a reassurance. So whichever of the foregoing definitions turns out to be the true one, Jesus' disciples living at the time that the signs of his presence are manifested will know that they will see the completion of "all these things".
What is patently evident from all of these articles, comments and discussions as well as the prophetic legacy of Jehovah's Witnesses is that "this generation" cannot be used to calculation the approximate time of Jesus' arrival. Yet, that is precisely what we are trying to do, again, with this week's Watchtower study.
- Reply by menrov on 2014-04-03 11:24:50
  Meleti, I agree with this final argument. It is probably not possible to come to a final conclusion of the definition or meaning of the word generation. I also believe that His reply to the disciples was meant to give comfort, reassurance. The generation of the disciples experienced the Jerusalem destruction. As such, I agree that the generation alive when Jesus presence or coming is evident, that generation will experience the end as well.
  To use the word generation to determine that we are close to the end, is indeed not what Jesus had intended when he replied. Also, like you explain, the Christians that are awake, they will themselves see the evidence of Jesus presence or coming, these Christians do not need anyone (leaders, organisation etc) to tell them that Jesus has come or is present. Jesus even warns against those people and/or organisations that do try to convince Christians about the presence or coming of Jesus.
  Although statements by Jesus are not always simple to understand I still believe He never intended to confuse His audience.

Comment by on 2014-04-03 10:54:46
“this generation” cannot be used to calculation the approximate time of Jesus’ arrival. Yet, that is precisely what we are trying to do, again, with this week’s Watchtower study.
And doing this despite Jesus words at Luke 21:8 "Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying 'I am he', and 'The due time has approached'. Do not go after them."
So we have a governing body the "faithful and discreet slave", who claim that they are the only true representatives of Jesus Christ on earth (see below) and continue to use the overlapping generation definition to calculate the approximate time of Jesus’ arrival. They yet again continue to ignore Jesus words at Acts 1:7 and Matt 24:44.
"the governing body of the “slave” class is not appointed by any man. It is appointed by the same one who appointed the twelve apostles in the first century C.E., namely, Jesus Christ the Head of the true Christian congregation and the Lord and Master of the “faithful and discreet slave” class".—John 15:16, 19
Watchtower December 15, 1971 page 758
"In this time of the end, Christ has committed "all his belongings"- all the earthly interests of the Kingdom (apparently now just his domestics)- to his "faithful and discreet slave" and its representative Governing Body, a group of anointed Christian men. (Matt 24:45-47) The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their leader, Christ".
WT September 15, 2010, page 23, para 8.

Comment by miken on 2014-04-03 11:20:07
“this generation” cannot be used to calculation the approximate time of Jesus’ arrival. Yet, that is precisely what we are trying to do, again, with this week’s Watchtower study."
Doing so despite Jesus words at Luke 21:8 "Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he' and 'The due time has approached'. Do not go after them".
We have a governing body ( the faithful and discreet slave) who claim to be Jesus Christ's only true representatives on earth (see below) who through their overlapping generation definition are calculating the approximate time of Jesus’ arrival. By so doing they continue to ignore Jesus words recorded at Acts 1:7 and Matt 24:44.
"the governing body of the “slave” class is not appointed by any man. It is appointed by the same one who appointed the twelve apostles in the first century C.E., namely, Jesus Christ the Head of the true Christian congregation and the Lord and Master of the “faithful and discreet slave” class".—John 15:16, 19
Watchtower December 15, 1971 page 758
"In this time of the end, Christ has committed "all his belongings"- all the earthly interests of the Kingdom (apparently now just his domestics)- to his "faithful and discreet slave" and its representative Governing Body, a group of anointed Christian men. (Matt 24:45-47) The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their leader, Christ".
WT September 15, 2010, page 23, para 8.
Is this a deliberate strategy along with the many other published articles to keep the pressure on all JW's to continue Matt 24:14 at all cost. What ever happened to Jesus words at Acts 1: 8 "you will be witnesses of me"? Paul certainly took his words seriously.
- Reply by menrov on 2014-04-03 11:39:25
  Funny, I must have studied that article and never really realized what was written, until now. So, the GB is equal to Jesus. Jesus never tried to be equal to His father but the GB obviously thinks it can make itself equal to Jesus. In other words, why list to Jesus if you now can listen to the GB.....

Comment by on 2014-04-03 11:43:43
Yes i am suggesting that meleti i think its a possibility The conversation at matthew 24 seems to flow from the denunciation of the pharisees and of the people of jerusalem in general .verse 33 of matthew 23 describes the people as offspring of vipers or serpents generation of vipers KJV i think this could well be identifying them with the seed of the serpent .greek gennema strongs 1081 offspring .fruit generation .although matthew 23 v36 and chapter 24 v 34 is g 1074 genea by implication an age generation nation time its a derivative of genos 1085 meaning kin Im just saying its a possibility .I Do fully accept what you say though about the all these things of verse 34 may not be the whole chapter but the things mentioned in the immeadiate context probably from verse 23 Thanks again for this research and insight we are getting closer arent we to the real truth of the bible . Kev

Comment by Anonymous on 2014-04-03 12:25:54
Meleti, I agree with your conclusions 210%
- Reply by Anonymous on 2014-04-03 12:39:04
  I had actually expressed a similar understanding to yours here: http://meletivivlon.com/2013/12/20/this-generation-getting-all-the-pieces-to-fit/#comment-6709

Comment by AFRICAINE on 2014-04-03 14:13:01
Bob Hewson - you comment - "There is some discussion as to the standing of the writers of “Beroean Pickets” can you please confirm your understanding of your situation?
I have been told that you are basically JW’s that have concerns with your organizations interpretation on different matters and you then publish these concerns on line under “Beroean Pickets”! Is this the true situation or are you in fact ex-JW’s that are just trying to knock the society?" - which sounds to me like - " We the committee - overseeing the task of being the moral overlords of Truth on internet sites ...by appointment to their Majesties the Governing Body - FDS hereby summons you to render answers to this tribunal" - or have I grabbed the bull by its udders here. ?? We dig this site man [I am an elder and up to a recent while back a B+ DC speaker.ie I did Dramas and manuscript talks ] I speak to people everyday about the wonderful good news about the Christ and his Father. What is wrong with digging into Gods word and discussing it - What is wrong with not being totally in the pocket of the FDS/GB ??
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-03 17:42:56
  Nothing is wrong with that Africaine, nothing at all. You're on the money there. In fact, it is our duty to question and ascertain that all teachings line up with what Christ taught. Thanks for your comment.
  By the way, all the posters and moderators on the site are Jehovah's Witnesses. All are elders or have served as such until recently.
  - Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-04 12:50:20
    Well . . . . not counting our elder sisters . . . :)

Comment by Niteflyer on 2014-04-03 15:20:10
You really could be correct here. But verse 14 got me thinking. You wrote: "The presence of false prophets, the loveless and lawless state of the Christian congregation, and the preaching of the good news has been occurring from the time of Christ down to our day."
Good news of the kingdom - who has preached that during the last 2000 years? Not Christendom, they even don't know what that kingdom is. Plus they have preached many falsehoods during all these many centuries and still continue to do so.
I wonder if it was just a coincidence that Jesus mentioned the preaching work last - and then continued "then the end will come". Makes me think if he meant that the preaching about the kingdom would take place just before the end, not before that.
One thing Wt has correct is that it understands that God's Kingdom is a real government that will end the human rule (Daniel 2:44) - and we have been preaching that now for over a century.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-03 17:53:25
  You mention the good news of the Kingdom as a feature that sets Jehovah's Witnesses apart from the rest and which fulfills Matthew 24:14. What is the good news of the kingdom? In part it is that Jesus will establish a kingdom using Christians taken from the earth? We have mistakenly taught that kingdom was set up in 1914. We've also "shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men" by declaring that only a select few can enter. (Mat. 23:13) So by the criteria of teaching the true nature of the kingdom, we do not qualify either.
  - Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-04 12:55:53
    The good news HAS been preached. It's just been suppressed by organizations of men who hunted down and persecuted the true preachers and teachers. Our main problem is not seeing that many have already died faithfully. The problem with organizations is they keep date-stamping its parameters.
    sw
  - Reply by Niteflyer on 2014-04-04 16:43:01
    The good news of the Kingdom is what is mentioned in Daniel 2:44. 1914 is wrong and we don't have all the other details right either. But at least we teach that God's Kingdom is something real that will do something very real, it will end all the suffering Not so many other worldwide religions or groups preach this kind of good news.
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-04 18:19:31
      First of all, other churches have also taught about the end of the world. There are various versions, but the essentials are there. Additionally, the good news isn't just the good news of the kingdom. Actually, the phrase "good news of the kingdom" occurs 6 times in the Christian Scriptures. However, the term good news either with a qualifier like "about the Christ" or "about Jesus" or "of God", or without a qualifier occurs over 100 times. So we over simply it. There are elements of the good news about the Christ which we do not correctly teach or which we de-emphasize to the point of distracting from it. A good part of the good news is that God has opened the way for mankind to approach him and become his children and he, their Father. We have taken that away by claiming that for millions, they are only his friends, as shown in the final study article of the February Watchtower.
      So before we dismiss all others as failing to preach the good news to the nations and cloak ourselves with that mantle, we need to set our own house in order.
- Reply by umbertoecho on 2014-04-03 18:37:32
  Niteflyer,
  Could you please substantiate your claim that........"Good news of the kingdom – who has preached that during the last 2000 years? Not Christendom, they even don’t know what that kingdom is. Plus they have preached many falsehoods during all these many centuries and still continue to do so......."
  This is not accurate. The society speaks of many (loose quote) who have come down through the centuries, through all sorts of religious denominations, who have sought the truth contained within the bible, fought to have it unchained from the pulpit and printed......
  Historically, these men did a huge preaching effort in freeing up the bible for average person to read. These men were persecuted. It would be a mistake for the society to lay such a claim as far as the preaching work goes. There are also many Christian groups operating in very dangerous situations right now as I write...........people on the border of China and N. Korea for example.......many are dedicated Christians working and worshiping God to the best of their abilities............
  I do not wish to offend you by this comment, yet cannot stand by and allow false claims such as this......
  - Reply by Niteflyer on 2014-04-04 16:37:30
    True there has been a lot of individuals and smaller groups through the centuries who have done as you said and who were persecuted, killed etc. I was not talking about them but the main churches of Christendom who have mislead millions of people because of their false teachings like Trinity etc and who haven't taught the truth about what God's Kingdom really is and what it will accomplish.

Comment by menrov on 2014-04-03 15:35:01
Meleti, not to make this more complicated but I had another look at the verse on biblehub and select interlinear analysis. Here is the result:
Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
281 [e] amēn ἀμὴν Truly Heb
3004 [e] legō λέγω I say V-PIA-1S
4771 [e] hymin ὑμῖν to you, PPro-D2P
3754 [e] hoti ὅτι that Conj
3756 [e] ou οὐ no Adv
3361 [e] mē μὴ not Adv
3928 [e] parelthē παρέλθῃ will have passed away V-ASA-3S
3588 [e] hē ἡ the Art-NFS
1074 [e] genea γενεὰ generation N-NFS
3778 [e] hautē αὕτη this, DPro-NFS
2193 [e] heōs ἕως until Conj
302 [e] an ἂν anyhow Prtcl
3956 [e] panta πάντα all Adj-NNP
3778 [e] tauta ταῦτα these things DPro-NNP
1096 [e] genētai γένηται. shall have taken place. V-ASM-3S
What I noticed is that it says NO NOT which looks like a double negative / denial.
And also it says THE GENERATION THIS.
All the available greek versions:
Greek Texts
SBL Greek New Testament 2010
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
Westcott and Hort 1881
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη, ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
Tischendorf 8th Edition
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη, ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται
My point is, how sure are we that the verse as we know it, is correctly rendered, with right order of words.
In my view, if Jesus really meant to say THIS generation, He must have referred to the people living at that time. But, if He meant to say THE generation, it could refer to the generation that would be alive when these things will happen. For me, THIS always refers to something that is relevant at the moment you use that word. Like, THIS rain, referring to the rain at that moment. Whereas THE is more generic.
Reading verse 32 - 34 it is clear that Jesus is talking to his disciples as He explicitly uses YOU and with the word LEARN he is addressing to them (I capitalized):
32 “Learn this parable from the fig tree: Whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 So also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. 34 I tell YOU the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
I still believe that Jesus was referring to the people in that time with the word generation. His answer in verses 32-34 is related to His arrival (verses 29-31) which partly reads: and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I guess we think that All The Tribes of The Earth refer to all the people or nations. But what if Jesus was referring to the Jewish tribes?? One explanation on biblehub regarding tribes:
5443 phylḗ (from 5453 /phýō, "to generate") – a tribe (race, lineage); the descendants of a common ancestor, like the progeny springing from Jacob (Israel).
Funny to see that it is related to To GENERATE like the word GENERATION.
And could it be that the work for which has sent out His angels, has started after his death and continues until now, until the end?
Verse 29: the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
We all see this is not literally Could this refer to the Jewish priests and leaders and the expulsion of Satan and his demons from heaven??
In summary, I tend to believe (I am not an expert, just trying to use my gifts to understand the scriptures and finally start to think myself instead of being told) that verses 29-34 actually have taken place during the period from His death until destruction of Jerusalem,
- Reply by Anonymous on 2014-04-03 16:18:54
  'These' is the plural of 'this', correct? Jesus spoke about seeing 'these things' with reference to future events that had not happened yet because they were in the immediate context of the conversation. In a similar vein the word, 'this' does not have to refer to something that is concretely present, temporally speaking. It can refer to something that is present only in the immediate context of a conversation. Jesus was speaking about events that would immediately precede his final coming so he can certainly use 'this' to describe the generation that would see those future events being mentioned in the immediate context of the conversation.
  - Reply by menrov on 2014-04-03 17:40:49
    I see that Jesus was talking about things to happen. Point is, would Jesus be referring to things to happen say 2000 years later or to things to happen say 40 years later? Still future but in case of 40 years, THIS would then refer to the generation at that moment.
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-03 17:56:32
      Verses 29-31 have yet to be fulfilled. Verses 32 and 33 speak of identifying the season and relate to the sign spoken of in verses 29-31. So when Jesus says "YOU", he is speaking not just to those present who would not live to see the sign of his presence, but to those disciples who would. Therefore, the "this" in "this generation" like the "these" in "all these things" refers to a generation not yet in existence.
      - Reply by menrov on 2014-04-03 18:59:38
        If you are right, then actually Jesus did try to explain to them that none of their questions would happen in their lives. Except for the part regarding fleeing to the mountains. I still do not believe in a double fulfillment as that would be for his disciples impossible to understand even most disappointing if some things happened but not all. I can see that if none of the events happened then, they would realize it would be for the time after them.
        Possibly because I do not speak the greek of that period I still find it difficult to capture the word THIS as you and others do.
  - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-03 17:57:22
    You make an excellent point, Anonymous. Thank you for that.
- Reply by Anonymous on 2014-04-03 16:22:18
  "What I noticed is that it says NO NOT which looks like a double negative / denial.
  And also it says THE GENERATION THIS."
  You must remember that English grammar is not the same as Koine grammar, so you can't use English rules of grammar to decipher Koine greek.
  - Reply by menrov on 2014-04-03 17:38:25
    I agree and hence I was seeking some input on this. My mother tongue is not English but Dutch and in Dutch we have again other rules.....
    Thanks for feedback
    - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-03 20:15:13
      A few notes on renderings:
      ou me is an intensive negative. This is why the NWT has "by no means" in Matthew 24:34. Check BibleHub here: http://biblehub.com/matthew/24-34.htm. The NIV, HCSB, and Weymouth renderings attempt to bring out the force of the intensive negative. Most of the others just go with a simple negative expression. Their are things about the NWT I disagree with, but the effort by the NWT to bring out such intricacies is on the plus side in my book.
      "The tribes of the earth" could just as well be rendered "the tribes of the land." Most translations render "earth" do to long standing belief that Mt 24:29-31 is still future. But it can be legitimately rendered to refer to the Jewish nation in the 1st century.
      (Matthew 24:30 NWT) " . . .And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven. . ." would more literally be rendered "and then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven." This is an allusion to Daniel 7:13, 14. It is the "Son of man" that is "in heaven," not "the sign."
      Matthew 24:29 is an allusion to Isaiah 13:10 (and some think also Isaiah 34:4). Matthew 24:29 is paralleled by Luke 21:25, 26. It is referring to things taking place among the Gentiles. Numerous commentaries hold that it is a still future event, but it can be explained (along with vv. 30, 31) as first century events culminating at 70 C,E.

Comment by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-04-03 16:18:32
What we go into here is double fulfillment. If you study the passage at hand you realize that not all things are fulfilled during the first century, though many things are. In my view it gets really hard to harmonize scripture if you don't take the dual fulfillment principle into account.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-03 17:59:45
  I would respectfully disagree. I believe much of the trouble we have got ourselves into over the decades is due to the belief that there is a dual fulfillment. I now believe that in the case of Matthew 24:3-36, there are no dual fulfillments. Everything resolves nicely if we assume a single fulfillment for all these things.
  - Reply by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-04-04 12:53:19
    If you don't believe in double fulfillment of that passage you are left to explain:
    "And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."
    "For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."
    "Immediately after the suffering of those days
    the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from heaven,
    and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
    30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
    If you look from verse 15 it talks initially about the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus instructions to flee. This HAS been fulfilled. Yet a lot of these other things have not yet been fulfilled.
    So there was a limited fulfillment of this passage when Jerusalem got destroyed, unless you argue that the warnings from verse 15 onward don't point to the warnings for Jesus' disciples to flee Jerusalem. Yet there is going to be a bigger fulfillment, because this scene is a prophetic picture of the end where we will have to go out of Babylon as not to share in her plagues.
    I know there is a strong case for the preterist view, but there is too much of scripture which contradict a simple reading of these passages.
    There is nothing wrong with things having an initial and bigger fulfillment, just think about Jesus alone, so many passages which were prophesied in Isaiah about him were fulfilled both in the day of Isaiah as in the day of our Lord.
    We probably should open a thread about this on the discussion forums as not to derail your thread too much ;)
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-04 15:56:57
      I think a discussion thread on the possible dual fulfillment of Mt. 24:15-22 would be a good idea.
    - Reply by Niteflyer on 2014-04-04 18:31:22
      I think it is very well possible that Matthew 24:15-22 (and Luke 21:20-24) had only one fulfillment, back in 66-70. The chosen ones were those who fled from the city when those days were cut short (when the armies withdrew).
      And verses 29-31 would only have one fulfillment - in the future.
      It would be so nice and simple if the whole chapter just had one fulfillment.. the 2 fulfillment-thing makes the whole chapter quite messy to explain.
    - Reply by kev c on 2014-04-05 03:56:33
      In need of grace i think theres questions that have to be asked either way when we spteak of a dual or single fullfilment . While verse 21 for then there wiLl be great tribulation such has not occured since the worlds beginning until now no nor will occur again. While the reasonig goes right its in the context of first century jerusalem so its speaking of its destruction in the first century but it wasnt greater than the flood so it must mean something else as well we know jesus was also speaking of his prescence so its also applies to the great tribulation which occurs at that time. . So hence it must have a double fullfilment . Whilst i can see the logic we still have to ask the question what did jesus mean when he said that this great tribulation would not occur again . Maybe its just the way im thinking but that statement to me anyway seems to make a doule fullfilment difficult for he said it wouldnt occur again . So while in the context of the destruction of jerusalem if we have a greater tribulation ahead it seems awkward to me to apply it to jerusalem Just a point thats all. . However as you said i do think there are many dual fullfilments in the bible many having to do with jesus himself . Kev
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-05 08:35:57
      The destruction of Jerusalem wasn't greater than the destruction by the Flood. Yet Jesus' words cannot fail to be true. I think the key is in the word tribulation. The flood wasn't a tribulation in the sense it is used throughout the Christian Scriptures. Tribulation means a time of test and trial and is always associated in the Bible with God's people. So tribulation refines, separating the valuable minerals from the dross. I think that if we focus on that we will see the true intent of Jesus words.

Comment by InNeedOfGrace on 2014-04-03 16:40:54
btw menrov as to your wordstudy of οὐ μή, look up Thayers:
The particle of οὐ μή in combination augment the force of the negation and signify not at all, in no way, by no means.
Look at other usages of this in scripture:
Matthew 5:18 ...till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass
Matthew 5:26 thou shalt by no means ...
Luke 18:17 ...Whosoever shall not recieve the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
This expression is used 94x in the New Testament ;)
Also your analysis of ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη is wrong. αὕτη may be used as a determiner before and after the word it determines, and this word having the article does in no way alter the meaning.
take an example:
1 John 5:11 .... καὶ αὕτη ἡ ζωὴ ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ ἐστιν
notice here: the αὕτη (conjugated form of οὗτος) is here being used as a determinant before ἡ ζωὴ which means life.
The translation is simply: "this life". It doesn't translate: this the life ;)
Similarly ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη translates this generation, it does not translate the generation this.
Remember that concordances and interlinears will only take you that far.
- Reply by menrov on 2014-04-03 17:20:48
  INOG, thanks for feedback. Like I said, I am exploring the verse and I see the points you make. I know the Double Fulfillment view but I am struggling with that. Do you know any other verse where Jesus is saying or explaining something that can be seen as a double fulfillment ? How I read Jesus words and teachings, it is rather straightforward. He uses illustrations or parables but I do not know which of illustrations would have double fulfillment.
  If not all things He foretold has happened in that period, then it is not really a double fulfillment. It becomes a partial fulfillment but would that not be very disappointing for the Christians living at that time? Would they have understood that not all things would happen then and would they be able to distinguish what would and what would not happen? Hope that is not fulfilled is most demotivating.
  I guess because of this element for example, it is believed that not everything has been fulfilled: and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
  Why would they (tribes / nations) ALL mourn of Jesus arrival or presence? The only tribes that really would mourn are the Jews as by his arrival or presence, they will realize what they have done, that they supported the killing of the Christ or Messiah.
  Btw. My mother tongue is not English so if my wording seem sometime direct / unpleasant, forgive me as this is not at all my intention. I love to reason on these subjects and in doing that my enthusiasm can cause me to use wrong words sometimes.
  - Reply by GodsWordIsTruth on 2014-04-03 22:50:36
    Menrov -
    I have trouble with dual fulfillments as well partly due to the GB's dual fulfillment crazes. I would love to see an example of any prophecy in the Bible fulfilled twice.
    I agree that the single fulfillment Meleti presents reconciles with scripture. I just believe that this "generation" debate stems from Christians hijacking the "last days" prophecy from the Jews. I really don't get why there is so much focus on this passage.
    Even with that said Meleti your article is well constructed and makes more sense than any premise I've come across.

Comment by kev c on 2014-04-03 19:44:33
Just about the dual fullfilment theory . I think there are too many verses in the first part of matthew 24 that seem peculiar to the first century and some verses toward the end that can only be in the future . I think this makes a dual fullfilment difficult . Kev

Comment by umbertoecho on 2014-04-03 22:55:04
There are some who subscribe to the theory that Satan fell long before the death of Christ. Some quote Luke 10 verse 18. ...Satan already fallen like lightening from heaven.

Comment by JB on 2014-04-04 08:58:52
Meleti, I took some time to reread the article after reading the chapter. I will have probably quite some thoughts and questions I'd like to write as they arise.
I think one of the difficulties I found in this chapter was the way Jesus' answers to two questions found their way together, in such a related fashion that, indeed, additional caution would be needed to determine which statements relate to Jerusalem's destruction and which others to the "end of ages". Specially, thinking that the statements were composed probably quite some time later.
For instance, "rumours of war", independently, could be aimed for Jerusalem's destruction too, although it perfectly matches to our days as well. Although the context helps quite a lot, as it also refers to the other difficulties.
I think indeed, it's a difficult text.
Regarding the term "generation", I noticed that the word "genea" was used quite a lot, also as "times". I also found your approach to consider the word definitely interesting. I was wondering if the term "generation" could refer to a much longer period as well ?
For instance, I think the concept of "Renaissance" could cover quite a long period, going beyond a human "generation". Could this be a similar option to the "hippie" generation ?
Reading the chapter, although outside of this analysis, I had some questions about the faithful and discreet slave.
Merely by reading the chapter, I couldn't find any particular link for this to indicate something for our days, an entity or person charged for distributing spiritual food, and the domestics being Jehovah's people.
Could this be a parable and referring to something different than we assume ? The word "lord" seems to be used in different ways on this chapter, for instance
"42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.", where the word "Lord", capitalized, is a clear reference.
About the discreet slave we read :
"45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?"
Here I had the impression to read an example, a parable about a servant and "his lord", not referring to a particular person.
Could this be a way to describe the "unexpected" arrival of an event ? In any case, merely reading this chapter, I couldn't see a direct link to the F&DS as we know today.
Though with my limited knowledge, I may miss other references along with this one that could complete the organization's understanding of F&DS.
Greetings,
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-04 09:41:44
  Hi JB,
  You raise some interesting questions. Certainly there is room for alternate understandings of genea. If you click the "this generation" category like on this page, you'll see we've grappled with a few of them over the months.
  As for the F&DS, well, there's a topic that takes some time to get into. Again, we've written extensively on it, and many comments have expanded on the topic. The category link, Identifying the Slave will take you there.
  Meleti
  - Reply by JB on 2014-04-04 11:44:49
    Thank you Meleti, I'll expand my search on these categories.
    Many thanks.
- Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-04 12:06:04
  The answer to who the parable of the F&DS refers to is right in the first (chronologically speaking) version of it in Luke. The account in Luke 12 takes place roughly 6 months or so prior to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
  In Luke 12:32-34 Jesus tells the disciples that God has approved of giving them the kingdom. As a consequence, they should make the kingdom their main treasure in life.
  In verses 35-38 Jesus uses an illustration involving the master-slave relationship. They should be like busy, hard-working slaves that are awaiting their master's return.
  There is a warning in verses 39, 40 which evolves the illustration so that the slaves are now "householders" who should be watchful for the unexpected showing up of a thief. (Based on Peter's question in verse 41, he views all of verses 35-41 as a single illustration.)
  In verse 41 Peter asks Jesus who he is saying this illustration to, "us or also to all"?
  Jesus' response is the illustration of the F&DS. (Which is typical of Jesus to not give a direct answer, but one that requires some thought. Compare Luke 13:22-30 as another example.)
  Without going into the details of the parable itself (which many have done elsewhere), the answer to Peter's question can be found in verse 48b:
  "Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him."
  If you don't see the answer to Peter's question there, it is most likely because the English translation obscures it.
  Peter asked does it apply "to us or also to all." "All" is pantas, an inflected form of the Greek pas. In Jesus' response in verse 48b, "everyone" is panti, also an inflected form of pas. This small fact gets lost when "all" in verse 41 becomes "everyone" in verse 48. But in the Greek Peter would have heard clearly the answer to his question. (Where pantas and panti have similar sounds as well as the same meaning. "All" and "everyone" are synonyms, but not homonyms. So in English one loses that sound quality in the hearing of the account. The reading distance between verse 41 and 48, and the fact that when the publications refer to the F&DS parable verse 48 is never mentioned, also help obscure this point.)
  Verse 48 also gives a clue to who Peter meant by "us." The response in verse 48 is that Jesus is saying this to all 'who have been given much and those put in charge of much.' It appears that Peter viewed the 12 apostles as "us" ('those put in charge of much') and "all" to be all the disciples including the apostles. (Note Peter's phrasing: "To us or also to all.")
  Half a year or so later (from the Luke account) Jesus repeats this information in what we now know as Matthew 24:43-51. The context is about the disciples being ready for the parousia. Verses 43, 44 repeat Luke 12:39, 40 (about the householder being ready for the thief). There is no need for Peter's question from Luke 12:41 since Jesus is retelling this in Matthew 24. So the F&DS parable follows naturally in Matthew 24:45-51 as a repeat of the information given in Luke 12 about six months prior.
  Sealing who this applies to is Mark's account (thought to have been helped in its writing by Peter).
  Mark 13:32 has the warning that no one knows the day or hour (from Mt 24:36). Mark 13:33-36 has the gist of the illustration from Luke 12:35-40 and Matthew 24:43, 44.
  But instead of including the illustration of the F&DS, the 10 virgins, and the talents, Mark concludes by saying, ". . .But what I say to YOU I say to all, Keep on the watch.”
  All this makes clear that the current published explanation of the F&DS, and who it applies to, is far from the mark.

Comment by on 2014-04-04 18:01:39
Here's an interesting question: Why does Luke 21 place the days of Noah in Luke chapter 17 rather than in his last days of Jerusalem account in Luke chapter21?
Daytona

Comment by on 2014-04-04 22:09:08
Another interesting question: Why does Luke place the urgency mentioned in Matthew 24 not in Luke chapter 21 but in Luke chapter 17: "On that day let the person that is on the housetop but whose movable things are in the house not come down to pick these up, and the person out in the field, let him likewise not return to the things behind."
Is this placement of scripture inspired? Yes. We are charged with finding why Jehovah placed it so.
Daytona
- Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-05 04:52:34
  What Luke has in 17:26-37 is broken up into 3 places in Matthew 24.
  Luke 17:26-30, 34, 35 = Matthew 24:37-41. Note how Matthew abbreviates, leaving out Lot. But then combines this with 'one being taken, the other left behind,' which in Luke is connected with fleeing from the field and housetop.
  Luke 17:31 = Matthew 24:16-20. Matthew expands on what Luke has regarding the sudden fleeing from the housetop and field. Matthew includes concerns about pregnant women and the Sabbath. Luke has the 'Lot's wife' saying and the saying about 'saving one's soul.'
  Luke 17:37 = Matthew 24:28. In Luke it is the disciples asking "Where Lord?" (vs. 35) that prompts Jesus to say this about the vultures/carcass. In Matthew it is in the warning about the parousia and false Christ's who would make it into some secretive event.
  A couple possibilities on why the differences:
  Luke is quite possibly a Gentile. (Compare Col 4:10-14) His audience (Theophilus), at least initially, was another Gentile.
  Matthew was a Jew. His initial audience may have been Christian Jews (especially if Matthew was originally in Aramaic).
  So Matthew may have had in mind preparing fellow Jewish Christians for what was to come. Luke's audience may not have been concerned so much with what was to happen to the Jewish nation, besides it being a matter of Biblical interest.
  Some of the difference may be literary. Two writers with similar material that was spoken by Jesus on several occasions. How the two writers compose the information would likely depend on their purpose in writing. There are a whole host of examples in Matthew and Luke where they differ in placement of material. For example, Matthew 19:28 ('sitting on thrones and judging') occurs at the Last Supper in Luke (22:29, 30)

Comment by kev c on 2014-04-05 04:17:32
I dont know daytona whats the answer give us a clue. Kev
- Reply by on 2014-04-05 09:15:55
  Placing our complete trust in God's ability to inspire and guide his people toward where they must go; we read the Gospels not as records penned by men who are writing to represent their community but rather as records inspired of God.
  So...placing that trust then on Matthew and Luke we can ask why did Jehovah cause those men to write as they did? Why are Matthew 24 and Luke 21 different? And why did Jehovah cause Luke to place some important matter in Luke 17 rather than Luke 21?
  Here is food for thought: The days of Noah culminated in the destruction of the world of mankind opposed to God. The destruction of Jerusalem as described in Luke 21 did NOT result in the destruction of the world of mankind opposed to God. Matthew 24 describes an urgency; quickly get out, quickly leave etc. But there actually was no urgency when the Roman armies first attacked Jerusalem, the Jewish Christians had time to leave.
  This is because Luke 21 is more historical than Matthew 24. Luke 21 is history, Matthew 24 is prophecy. Thus by inspiration Luke places prophetic elements that do not belong to the first century destruction of Jerusalem in what we today know as Luke 17 (there were no chapter and verse divisions in Luke's day).
  Luke 21 is about Jerusalem: its destruction and its return for that matter. Matthew is about the future destruction where the Disgusting Thing that Causes Desolation is found not in Jerusalem but in a "holy place".
  Jehovah God caused these men to write as they did not only for their generation but for ours as well. We can take great courage from this; we can put great trust that God has not forgotten us nor has he left us to ourselves. In his good time he acts and in his good time he remains behind the scenes but always working as Christ himself did and does.
  Daytona
  - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-05 10:04:42
    There is strong evidence that Luke was written before the destruction of Jerusalem, so that would make his account of those events prophetic, like Matthew's, not historical. Additionally, the political situation in 66 C.E. meant that fleeing from the city urgently in obedience to Christ's directive was crucial. Waiting even a short time would greatly hinder ones efforts to leave as the Zealots were recruiting men and materials for the inevitable return engagement with the Romans.
    - Reply by on 2014-04-05 10:12:20
      I leave it in Jehovah's hands then. Hopefully a lurker or two will benefit from the post.
      Daytona
    - Reply by menrov on 2014-04-05 10:59:21
      I think we should realize that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all wrote after Jesus died. In contrast to prophets in the past like Isaiah who wrote what was told to them to writes, the NT writers were inspired to give a regard of the events that happened in Jesus' life. As such, it was always a sort of history because by the time they wrote them, many things had already happened. John was even written (according to RNWT) after destruction of Jerusalem. With regard to contents, I agree that Jesus made statements regarding the events to happen soon (in time of his disciples) and events that would happen far later. But I believe that Revelation is in fact is actually given to be a prophesy.
      Although, if you read the first few verses in chapter 1:
      1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John,
      Peculiar that is say What Must Happen VERY SOON. Anyway, that's another topic :-)
    - Reply by on 2014-04-06 07:46:45
      To menrov,
      I am in general agreement with your post.
      Jehovah God can inspire a historian just as he can inspire a prophet. Moses' writings (which for the most part were historical) were somewhat amended after his lifetime, that though did not mean that because the writer was looking back his writing was not inspired.
      Luke could in hindsight write an inspired record. There is nothing mysterious about this nor is it outside of the Bible norm. Neither does that mean that his record could not include prophetic material that is not historical. It is this combination of prophetic and historical material that accounts for the difference between Matthew 24 and Luke 21. When those two accounts are studied side by side significant differences are made apparent.Then adding to that a study of Luke 17 and the door opens.
      Jehovah's hand is not tied to how we ourselves believe he acts or does not act.
      I appreciate your thoughts, thanks.
      Daytona
  - Reply by smolderingwick1 on 2014-04-05 11:29:25
    Since prophecy is only history written in advance I go with this understanding.
    On the matter of our asking anything in the NAME of Christ or the spirit, the term "in the name of," from Hebraic perspective meant in the CHARACTER of. Thus we would not be asking for anything that would be out of CHARACTER for Jesus, the spirit or the Father to do. All of this applies to the expression "in the NAME of" from a Jewish (in fact all middle-eastern) culture.

Comment by edenone1en on 2014-04-05 09:10:14
If (Matthew 24:30 NWT) ” . . .And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven. . .” would more literally be rendered “and then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” This is an allusion to Daniel 7:13, 14. It is the “Son of man” that is “in heaven,” not “the sign.”
Then, this changes the reading completely. The translation becomes ""...Then it will appear the sign that the son of man is in heaven".
Since Jesus promised this:
"I can guarantee this truth: Those who believe in me will do the things that I am doing. They will do even greater things because I am going to the Father. I will do anything you ask the Father in my name (...) I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you." “I will not leave you all alone. I will come back to you. In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me." - John 14:12-19
Is it feasible, then, to conclude, that the "sign" that the Son of Man was in heaven was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost 33 CE? And that his "return" and "presence" would be achieved by means of the Holy Spirit to guide his disciples henceforth? And because of the operation of this Holy Spirit, his disciples would "see" their Master, while those who don't receive that Holy Spirit wouldn't be able to discern it?
Eden

Comment by edenone1 on 2014-04-05 09:12:02
If (Matthew 24:30 NWT) ” . . .And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven. . .” would more literally be rendered “and then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” This is an allusion to Daniel 7:13, 14. It is the “Son of man” that is “in heaven,” not “the sign.”
Then, this changes the reading completely. The translation becomes “”…Then it will appear the sign that the son of man is in heaven”.
Since Jesus promised this:
“I can guarantee this truth: Those who believe in me will do the things that I am doing. They will do even greater things because I am going to the Father. I will do anything you ask the Father in my name (…) I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you.” “I will not leave you all alone. I will come back to you. In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me.” – John 14:12-19
Is it feasible, then, to conclude, that the “sign” that the Son of Man was in heaven was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost 33 CE? And that his “return” and “presence” would be achieved by means of the Holy Spirit to guide his disciples henceforth? And because of the operation of this Holy Spirit, his disciples would “see” their Master, while those who don’t receive that Holy Spirit wouldn’t be able to discern it?
Eden
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-05 09:59:23
  An interesting take on things, Eden. However, if it was fulfilled back then, how do you reconcile the tribes beating themselves in grief and their seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds in power and glory?
  - Reply by menrov on 2014-04-05 10:37:31
    Wow, many comments. Sometime more confusing, sometimes clarifying :-)
    Anyway, I decided to read the whole event again but this time I started in chapter 23. Main reason for this is mentioned in Mt. 24:3: 3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
    The disciples were saying THESE things. This is plural and to something that has been said before. What has been said before. Well, yes, in verse 1 the destruction of the template is announced. But that was not all. Chapter 23 is about 7 woes against the Jewish nation. Read Mt 23:34-36
    “For this reason I am sending you prophets and wise men and experts in the law, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that on you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things!
    Here Jesus mentions that this generation will be held responsible.
    Then to last verses of chapter 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would have none of it! 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate! 39 For I tell you, you will not see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
    and we continue with chapter 24:
    Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. 2 And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!”
    And after this, the disciples asked these questions. For me, 3 things were asked, the fulfillment of the things mentioned in chapter 23, then how they, the disciples, will see Jesus return (as he said in 39: For I tell you, you will not see me from now until you say..") and finally when the end of age will be.
    I believe that up to verse 35, all happened in the first century. Can I explain each little aspect, no, but the overall set of events fit what actually happened. Not only the physical destruction of the temple, but in fact the whole design of the Jewish system, the design of the tribes and priests etc. It was all gone.
    One point regarding verse 24:14. Compare with Col. 1:23: 23 if indeed you remain in the faith, established and firm, without shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard. This gospel has also been preached in all creation under heaven, and I, Paul, have become its servant.
    Paul declares that the gospel has been preached in ALL CREATION UNDER HEAVEN. Paul cannot lie. If this statement is not true (as some consider), then Paul was incorrect in saying this and we should doubt many other things.
    My view is that when Jesus or Paul were talking about the system, or all creation or end of the earth, this refers to the Jewish system, with Jerusalem as the center of worship.
    Regarding generation, Jesus already mentions in chapter 23 which generation will pay the price. That is the same generation as mentioned in chapter 24.
    The difference in reply is found from Mt 24:36, where Jesus starts with BUT or However or AND. Jesus just explained in detail how his disciples will be able to recognize the events and what to do and what not. There is one thing that Jesus cannot say and the is the when the end of age will happen. The events prior to the end are really different from the previous events. It will seem quiet, all normal, like in time of Noah. Hence the advice to stay awake. It would be easy to lose focus in such circumstances. Therefore the parable or example of the thief at night and the master/salve one. The message is to stay aware, in particular the ones who have been asked (Christians) by their master (Jesus).
    These events are quite different from the event that lead up to the destruction of the temple and Jewish system.
  - Reply by edenone1 on 2014-04-05 12:24:21
    Consider Daniel 7:13: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."
    Daniel saw in a vision - not in a real, palpable context - the son of man "coming with the clouds of heaven". We take the term "coming" with the current english meaning - as something or someone approaching US. Therefore, we presume that Jesus "coming" means a traject starting in heavens [where the clouds are] into US [the ones observing, presumably on Earth]. Yet, see how Daniel wrote. The "Son of Man" isn't "coming" to Earth - rather, he is approaching the Ancient of Days, into his very presence, in the heavens above.
    In Greek, the verb "erchomai" may mean "to come" just as much it can mean "to go"; also "to appear"; also "to enter".
    So, the translation of Matthew 24:30 can also be: "[...] will mourn when they see the Son of Man going on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." - referring to his ascension to heaven.
    or
    "will mourn when they see the Son of Man enter with the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." - referring to his enthronement as King in Heavens.
    The "tribes" of the earth may well be the '12 tribes of Israel' who will mourn because the resurrection and enthronement of Jesus in heaven is a confirmation that they have forever lost any hopes of having their earthly davidian kingdom restored.
    Eden
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-05 12:35:13
      What proof is there that "all the tribes of the earth" refers to the 12 tribes? Further, what proof is there that they were aware the Son of Man had entered with the clouds of heaven so that they could mourn? Is there evidence of the 12 tribes of Israel expressing grief as seeing Jesus enter into the heavens? Or evidence that they witnessed such an event at all? Also, what proof is there that we are have been in the presence of Christ since then? How do you harmonize this interpretation with all the references in Scripture the presence of Christ which depict it as a future event?
    - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-05 13:05:19
      Eden, (greetings) R. T. France makes a similar statement about 24:30 ("and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory") as you did (and I concur with you). He says:
      This saying [from Mt 24:30] belongs to the group of three Matthean allusions (16:28; 24:30; 26:64) which are shared with mark (8:38; 13:26; 14:62), and which have certain significant features in common: all of them speak of a "coming of the Son of Man" which is visible, which is associated with power, and which is to take place within the lifetime of those to whom he is speaking (in this case [24:30], "this generation" in v. 34. We have seen at 10:23 how the imagery of Daniel's vision [of 7:13, 14] requires that these passages be interpreted not of a "coming" to earth at the parousia but of a "coming" to God in heaven to be given the universal dominion declared in Dan. 7:14. These are enthronement texts.
      [End quote. Material in brackets is Bobcat's for clarity.]
      If you look at the allusion to Dan. 7:13, 14 in the Matthew 26:59-64 context, the accusation is made that Jesus would tear down the temple. When the high priest demands Jesus to answer to this, Jesus responds with the allusion to Daniel 7:13, 14. From this I take the allusion to Daniel 7:13, 14 in Matthew 24:30 to be a round-about way of saying that the destruction of the city and the temple will be what finally supplies proof to these unbelieving Jews that Jesus is the Messiah and has been enthroned. As the end comes for the city and temple, the unbelieving Jews would finally "see" this (albeit, too late for them).
      - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-05 15:11:19
        Bobcat, are you suggesting a dual fulfillment, or do you believe all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled completely in the first century?
    - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-05 17:41:02
      Meleti:
      No, neither of those (dual fulfillment/1st century only). My reply to Eden was in connection with Matthew 24:30 only. Personally, I view 24:4-35 as being the answer to the disciples first question ("when will these things be" - the destruction of the temple and city). And 24:36-25:46 as being the answer to the second question ("what will be the sign of your parousia and the conclusion of the system of things"
      The literary division in the discourse occurs in the opening words of 24:36, Περὶ δὲ. (See my second post where I discuss Mt 24:36 and peri de here: http://discussthetruth.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59)
      Actually "answer" (above) should really be "response" when it comes to the second question. The disciples asked for a "sign" to identify the parousia and end of the age. Jesus' "response" was that there would be no sign. "That day and hour" can not be calculated. You must always be ready. 24:36-25:30 illustratively describes how the disciples could/can prove to be ready.
      (Incidentally, "that day" in the Synoptics often refers to the beginning of the day of wrath. Depending on the context, either for the Jews or for the age. Compare Mt 7:22; 24:36; 26:29; Mk 13:32; Lk 10:12; 17:27, 30, 31; 21:34. "Hour" is idiomatic for how we would say "time." In other words, we cannot know the time or timing of "that day." In contrast to that, the disciples could know the timing of when "these things" would occur: They would occur before "this generation" passes away. 24:36 represents a contrast with 24:34.)
      Then, 25:31-46 describes how Jesus will deal with the nations when he arrives. (Note how the parables of 24:45-51, 25:1-13, and 25:14-30 describe the fate of faithful and unfaithful disciples. The disciples found to be disapproved are cast out of the master's house and share the fate of those outside. On the other hand, the parable of the sheep and goats describes how Jesus will deal with those outside of his household - "all the nations."
      I view the parousia and "the conclusion of the system of things" as something still future, although, I have reason to believe we are quite close to them, as I think you do also. (With "the conclusion of the system" being the equivalent of the "great earthquake" of Revelation 16:18 and also the start of Jesus' parousia.)
      Probably the main difference between my view and your article is in the fulfillment of Matthew 24:29-31. I view these as having their fulfillment in the first century. And thus, "these things" in 24:34 (in my view) would encompass 24:15-22 and 29-31. And "this generation" of 24:34 would be the same Jewish generation referred to in 23:36.
      Having said all that, I applaud your efforts to better understand Matthew 24, 25. I think many others here do also.
      - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-05 19:02:25
        What first century fulfillment do you give Mat. 24:29-31?
    - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-05 20:28:18
      Meleti:
      What first century fulfillment do you give Mat. 24:29-31?
      Here is a brief synopsis:
      Matthew 24:29 = Luke 21:25, 26. As shown by Luke, this describes action taking place among the Gentiles. It describes the historical event called "The Year of the Four Emperors." Its starting point is roughly the suicide of Nero in June 68 AD. Its ending point (roughly) is December 69 AD, with the victory of Vespasian over his rivals. (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius were the three emperors in between Nero and Vespasian. Matthew 24:29 is an allusion to Isaiah 13:10 & 34:4. Both contexts describe political upheaval, not "celestial" events.
      (Plutarch describes the Roman Civil War this way: "The Roman empire was overtaken by disasters and upheavals like those caused by the Titans of mythology, at one and the same time being torn into many pieced and collapsing in on itself in many places."
      Incidentally, Vespasian was originally tasked by Nero to make an example of the Jewish state after it rebelled. After starting the war in the spring of 67, Vespasian had to eventually leave the Jewish campaign in the hands of his son Titus while Vespasian tended to the Roman Civil War. This is why it was Titus who was in command during the destruction
      of the city and temple.
      "Immediately after" (in 24:29) indicates a quick succession of events. This is what the words mean. The great tribulation in verse 22 describes the whole period (66-70), but 29-31 give focus to the events leading up to the destruction of the city and temple that the disciples specifically wanted to know about.
      Matthew 24:30 describes the destruction of Jerusalem, its temple, and the nation. It does so via a description of the reaction of the 12 tribes to the events and their realization that Jesus, who foretold these things, was the Messiah after all. In doing so it uses the allusion to Daniel 7:13, 14.
      Matthew 24:31 also draws on a number of OT allusions:
      Deut 30:4; Zech 2:10 LXX - 'gathering from one end of heaven to the other.'
      Isa 27:13 - great trumpet blast
      Also compare Mt 24:31 with Mt 8:11-12
      Matthew 24:31 describes Jesus' effort to gather his chosen ones to the farthest reaches of the earth. As the old temple arrangement comes to its destructive end, the Messiah's program of gathering his people spreads out to the most distant parts of earth.
      Matthew 24:32-35 gives a summary conclusion to the answer to the first question and gives a timeline for its fulfillment (within "this generation").
      Then, peri de in 24:36 changes the discussion to answering the second question.
      - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-06 10:27:31
        Hi Bobcat,
        I’ve taken the liberty of opening a topic on discussthetruth.com and pasted this comment there, with yours above as a quote. If I’ve overstep my bounds, let me know and I’ll remove the quote. I just wanted to provide context for my comment. I’m duplicating it here so those who don’t visit the other forum can see the two sides. This is an interesting topic and deserves the benefit of an open discussion to resolve, so I thought it best to move it there to escape the limitations of the commenting feature of Beroean Pickets. I’m hoping that others will joins us there.
        Comparing Matthew 24:29 with Luke 21:25,26 is apt as they appear to refer to the same words of Jesus. As we read on in Luke, we find these words:
        (Luke 21:27, 28) And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”
        We have John’s gospel, three letters, and Revelation from the post-Jerusalem era and no mention is made of a time when Christians raised their heads, metaphorically speaking, knowing their deliverance was getting near. Also no mention is made of anything, neither metaphorical nor literal, that shows the Son of man coming in power and great glory in the clouds. This leads me to conclude that the fulfillment of both Matthew’s words and Luke’s is yet to happen.
        It is likely that the signs in the sun, moon and stars refer to human authorities. I’ll grant you that. However, which authorities? Those extant at that time in history or those that will face Jesus in war? Were the nations of that time in anguish? They certainly will be when they face off with God in the future. Were people fainting out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth back then? They clearly will be as the end of the world approaches. I don’t know, but a first century fulfillment makes Jesus words seem grossly overstated. It reminds me of our Organization’s application of the pouring out of the seven bowls in Revelation to the reading of Convention resolutions.
        As for the words “immediately after the tribulation of those days…”, I think the key is “tribulation”. It refers to a time of trial and stress, a time of testing as it relates to the Christian. Really, that time of trials, testing and tribulation have never ended for the true disciples of Jesus. Those who come through the great period of testing, the great tribulation, are saved, as Revelation 7:14 assures us. I believe we are still in that time of testing.
        That would mean that the signs of Revelation 24:29-31 will occur once that tribulation ends.
        I’m curious about Matthew 24:30 being fulfilled by the 12 tribes realizing Jesus was the Messiah after all. I am unaware of any historical evidence that natural Jews saw him coming in the clouds of heaven, even in a metaphorical sense. Is there evidence that this took place? We have Josephus’ firsthand account. I haven’t read all of it yet. It’s pretty heaving going. But perhaps he acknowledged a nation-wide consensus that Jesus was the Messiah?
        I do not find the link between Daniel 7:13,14 and Matthew 24:30 to be compelling. True, clouds are mentioned in both, but they appear to depict separate events. Daniel speaks of Jesus being given rulership, honor and a kingdom. We could apply that to his triumphant return to heaven in 33 C.E. or we could apply it to his future presence. Whichever one we choose, neither fits with the events following the destruction of Jerusalem.
        As for the fulfillment of Matthew 24:31, it is true that there are many ways we can consider the gathering. For instance, the Watchtower has changed the meaning of “gathering” to “sealing”—not literally, but pedantically. I never agreed with that, but it was done to support our Organization’s doctrinal teaching. I bring it up only because in doing so, the Governing Body is overlooking a key element in the verse: Jesus links the gathering to a great trumpet sound. That appears to be the crucial to fixing the timeframe. In 1 Corinthians 15:52, a trumpet sounds and the brothers of Christ, both living and dead, are gathered to him. As 1 Thessalonians 3:15 demonstrates, this occurs during the presence of the Lord. So the great trumpet sounding in Matthew 24:31 links that gathering to the one Paul spoke of to the Corinthians which he tells the Thessalonians will occur during the Lord’s presence. This strongly argues against a preterist interpretation of Matthew 24:29 to 31.
        The reasoning behind stating that Matthew 24:36 is a change of discussion, that only now does Jesus answer the question about his presence, is based (correct me if I’m wrong on this) on the assumption that to take Matthew 24:29-31 as signs of his presence would be to contradict the meaning of the words at vs. 36. I respectfully disagree. Verses 29-31 do not provide a time line, nor a means to calculate how close his presence is. They are the sign that his presence has arrived, that he is at the door. By that point, it is too late for a change of heart. The reason for my stating this is that these things come “immediately after the tribulation”. We know this from Revelation 7:14 which states that those coming out of the tribulation are saved, meaning the judgment has already taken place. So the beginning of these signs comes at a time that no one can know.

Comment by kev c on 2014-04-05 11:13:57
Thanks meleti its correct what you said about the great tribulation .being a cleansing time for gods people. Kev
- Reply by on 2014-04-06 13:22:57
  To Bobcat,
  A major problem for those who believe Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are like transparencies which can be matched up with one another but who nonetheless must supply answers to those attacking Biblical inspiration is this scripture: (Matt 24:21) "for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be." It is common knowledge that what happened in 70CE does not fit such a description. The holocaust of the last century as well as other events both among God's people and those who do not worship God have met and surpassed that event. The scripture is good, very good but it's interpretation is faulty.
  Take note of Luke's description, there is no "great tribulation", there is no "from the beginning of the world until now, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE." This is because Luke is not describing an event which takes place in the last days when such a GT will occur that will be so catastrophic and never to occur again but rather the destruction of ancient Jerusalem and its aftermath.
  One more point on this topic and then I believe it's time for me to close up shop on this:
  Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
  This scripture does not occur in Matthew 24. Only Luke speaks of the times of the Gentiles and the trampling of Jerusalem UNTIL those times are fulfilled.
  It is after discussing those times of the nations and predicting their end, that then Luke goes on to say, "(Luke 21:25) "And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; " (for anyone interested it would be beneficial to look up the Strong's definition of the word, "and" at the beginning of that verse).
  In the 1967 Six Day War, Jerusalem was afterward no longer a city divided, she became free shall we say not from the ills of men and their devices but from a scriptural point of view; free from the political control of non-Jews. Her times of being trampled had ended. (Russell's view of the importance of the return of the state of Israel was much more on the mark than Rutherford's though of course there is also a religious/spiritual application to being a Jew.)
  Interestingly, with the arrival of the internet the "sea" of mankind is all the more ready to roar and overtake the land upon with their leaders sit.
  Luke's "signs in sun and moon...etc" take place AFTER the end of the Gentile Times and therefore at that point coincide with Matthew's description of those "signs".
  Daytona
  - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-06 19:48:05
    Daytona:
    I'm afraid I still can't go along with your thesis. Luke 21:29-33 encapsulates all the events of Luke 21:20-28 to take place within "this generation." And in verse 33 Jesus gives a virtual oath that his words will take place.
    From a literary perspective, verses 25-28 do not have to be chronologically after verses 20-24. They can be simply describing another aspect of "these things." Verses 20-24 describe things happening among the Jews. Verses 25-26 describe events taking place among the Gentiles.
    Note the difference between the simple conjunction (καὶ, "and"/"also") that begins verse 25 and how verse 27 begins (καὶ τότε, "and then"). The opening phrasing of verse 27 ("and then") indicates a sequential order after verses 25, 26. This matches the ordering of Matthew 29, 30. Verse 25 lacks this "and then . . ."
    In regard to Matthew 24:21 and the language used to describe the great tribulation. First, the surrounding context again indicates a first century event (Fleeing from Judea - v. 16, the Sabbath day - v. 20, within "this generation - v. 34) The great tribulation of verse 21 is surrounded by first century context. You have to ignore all that context, or read some non-literal meaning into it, in order to make verse 21 apply to some other event besides the events of 66-70 AD.
    Regarding the language used to describe the great tribulation in verse 21, the NICNT commentary (referred to above by both Kev and myself) has this to say about it:
    Josephus's lurid description of the horrors of the siege (War 5.424-38, 512-18, 567-72; 6.193-213) shows that, while v. 21 uses the hyperbolic language of apocalyptic (cf. Dan 12:1; Joel 2:2; 1QM 1:11-12; T. Mos. 8:1; Rev 16:18), it is an assessment which those involved in the events would have been agreed on. In passing, we should note that "nor ever will be again" confirms that this passage [Mt 24:21] is about a historical event, not about the end of the world!
    A footnote mentions that "Josephus himself, who was involved in the events, claims that none of the disasters since the world began can compare to the fate of Jerusalem (War 1.12)." [This despite the fact that Josephus wrote also about the deluge in his Antiquities.]
    [End quote. Material in brackets "[ ]" is Bobcat's for clarity.]
    I take the wording of Matthew 24:21 to be hyperbolic so as to harmonize it with the context. But keep in mind, I'm not trying to sell that idea. I am simply responding to queries about what I believe on this and associated points. There are many who view Matthew 24:29-31 the same or similar to you.
    Bobcat
    - Reply by on 2014-04-07 08:59:53
      Keeping things simple not because we should but because most of the time in scripture the simplest answer is the more correct one. For instance, as we all know Christ gave all honor and credit to his Father though he was to be honored as we honor the Father. How to deal with this supposed contradiction has been the source of countless writings and books but for no purpose. The simplest answer is the correct one; Jehovah is the Father, Jesus is the Son these terms, Father and Son, were not picked from thin air but have meaning as we all here understand their meanings. In our world, the world that the Father and Son created with us as images of themselves; in this world we are quite familiar with the simple pattern of life that fathers come before sons both in time and position and that a son can look very much like his father as well.
      If the so called fathers of the church had allowed this simple and most basic of facts, the Father and Son relationship, to penetrate every other statement in the NT then they would not have been swallowed by other ideas which stemmed not from God but from men.
      So, yes, keeping a simple eye is the first step toward understanding the scriptures. But because we have been accustomed to deep and intricate searches we find it hard to leave it behind us. This is natural.
      Jehovah inspired four Gospels. None are exactly alike, they do not have to be. But what if their major differences are not as it has become popular to think, that each wrote for their own community of believers, but rather that each wrote what God had directed them to write. If that is the case, and it is, then each major difference between the Gospels needs to be examined as if God himself wrote it in. Then and only then we will get the sense of what God's spirit was saying and what the writer was actually writing under inspiration.
      Could some of the major differences be not history but prophecy? Yes. Could one book be viewed as an inspired religious teaching and not purely history? Yes. The Gospel writers did not give birth to quadruplets they have birth to individuals, individual accounts whose major differences are there by inspiration from Jehovah and Christ not from men or a community of men.
      Daytona

Comment by edenone1 on 2014-04-05 12:46:15
Perhaps the biggest tragedy of Christianity is that most (including the apostles Paul and Peter and John the writer of Revelation) failed to recognize the coming and presence of Jesus through the operation of the Holy Spirit, and instead have been waiting for an apocalyptical, spectacular return of Jesus.
Jesus clearly spoke to the people of his generation, their contemporaries. That generation would see the fulfillment of his prophecies. Tragically, when those prophecies didn't fulfill in the manner the disciples had been expecting, they resorted to apocalyptical speculations that still ensnare Christians to this day and time.
- Reply by kev c on 2014-04-05 14:16:15
  Wow bobcat and edenone thats interesting about the allusion to matthew 26 v 64 i hadnt connected that before with .matthew 24 for some reason . Thanks alot kev
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-05 15:10:32
  edenone1, you haven't answered my questions. Questions which need to be answered if you are going to provide Biblical and historical support your beliefs. Instead you are making categorical statements that call into question the inspired status of Bible writers like Paul, Peter and John.

Comment by edenone1 on 2014-04-05 12:51:56
Also, remember that the geographical context of Jesus's words is JUDEA. therefore, the 'tribes of the earth' [greek: yes, literally: soil] do not refer to the entire planet earth, but the same soil, or land, in the context of the prophecy, and that is JUDEA. Therefore, the "tribes of the earth" are the peoples living in Judea, presumably, the Jews, although I wouldn't rule out others.
- Reply by edenone1 on 2014-04-05 12:53:32
  not "yes" but "greek: ges" (sorry)
- Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-05 13:17:52
  Similarly, οἰκουμένῃ ("inhabited earth") from Matthew 24:14 was often used to refer to "the Roman empire" or "the world as known to the people of ancient times," or even just "Palestine and adjacent countries." (AMG's Greek-English Dictionary, p. 1033; Cmp. Lk 2:1; Ac 11:28; 17:6) It fits easily within Paul's saying in Colossians 1:23, which itself cannot be taken literally ("all creation").

Comment by edenone1 on 2014-04-05 16:09:19
Interestingly Jesus made this very significant remark that is often disregarded:
"One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs." - LUKE 17:20 (NLT)
Therefore, visible signs couldn't be used to determine the "coming" or the "presence" of the Kingdom. That's why Jesus gave the stern warning to his disciples:
"Be ready, because the Son of Man will return when you least expect him" - Luke 12:40
Those who would reply in watching the "signs of times" so to determine when the "time is at hand" (Luke 21:8) would not only be disappointed, but would also be deemed false prophets.
This is consistent with the notion that the events mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24 aren't signs tied with his coming or presence. Actually, Jesus carefully avoided answering any question regarding the time. He warned his disciples to beware of being mislead by false prophets, false anointed and false messiahs who would point out to visible events (wars, pestilences, famines, earthquakes...) as heralding the presence of the Kingdom. Instead, they should be prepared for enduring persecution. Only when the "good news of the Kingdom" would have been preached in the "whole world" to "all nations", the end would come. As Bobcat put it, the notion of "whole world" and "all nations" in the world vision of the common Jew didn't signify "planet earth" but rather something between Palestine and the known Roman Empire. (Compare with Colossians 1:23) The "end" would be related with Judea, not the entire world, because the disciples could escape that "end" by fleeing Judea. (Matthew 24:15) And still, seeing the "disgusting thing that caused desolation" was a very visible sign, so it can't be related with the "coming" of the Kingdom or the "coming of Jesus".
The "end" that Jesus talked about was obviously the desolation of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in the First Judean War 66-70 CE.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-05 18:57:37
  You still are not answering the questions I asked.
  I'm sure you feel your case is strong and your reasoning sound. However, I've found over the past two years on this forum that when someone ignores answering questions that prove difficult for the case they are making, it leads observers to believe their reasoning is weak.
  Please don't take that the wrong way. I point it out only because our goal here is to arrive at truth.
  As to your point about Luke 17:20, you are not presenting the facts. The rendering "can't be detected by visible signs" does not accurately convey the meaning of Jesus words. The word means "careful observation". We must consider the context. In the next verse, Jesus says that the Kingdom of God is in your midst. He was the visible manifestation of that Kingdom. His miracles were visible confirmation that the Kingdom had arrived. They were looking for great signs, yet great signs were before their eyes. They misinterpreted. So given these facts, it is evident that Jesus wasn't declaring an invisible presence. He wasn't nullifying the words he would later utter at Matthew 24:28 showing that his presence would be as evident to the world as the lightening in the sky, nor was he nullifying the inspired declaration of John at Rev. 1:7. Exactly how that manifestation will present itself we cannot say, but it will be evident even to those who don't want to believe.
  I have to differ with you with regard to your assertion that Jesus was carefully avoiding answering the question. True, he gave warnings not to be misled, but then he answered the question, supplying his disciples with what they needed to know to avoid being misled. His answer doesn't betray any time element.
  Your interpretation of Matthew 24:30 based on a presumed link to Daniel at present is speculation as you yourself have admitted. To turn it from personal conjecture into something we can believe in, you have to harmonize it with the rest of Scripture. Which takes me back to my original questions.
  One last thing: you say, "The "end" that Jesus talked about was obviously the desolation of Jerusalem by the Roman armies."
  I fail to see the proof that makes this "obvious".
  - Reply by kev c on 2014-04-06 10:03:53
    Wow. Ive just read RT frances commemtry on matthew 24 v 29 to 35 m
    . I used to think there could be no way that those verses could have been fullfilled in the first century . Now im not so sure i think its possible . I also think jesus reply to the sanhedrin at 26 v 64 are interesting . Yet i say to you men from hence forth you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven . That could be ano indication of a a first century fullfilment although in poetic and highly allusive langauge as France called it . It just shows the truth of pauls words at 1 cor 8v2 if anyone thinks he knows something he doesnt yet know it as he should. Kev
    - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-06 10:35:06
      Jesus words to the Sanhedrin were never fulfilled in the sense of them getting a vision into heaven of Jesus at God's right hand, but they were fulfilled in the first century when first Stephen declared to them his vision.
      (Acts 7:56, 57) . . .“Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” 57 At this they cried out at the top of their voices and put their hands over their ears and rushed at him all together.
      That was what caused them to murder him. Subsequently, they witnessed the manifestation of Jesus' new authority as the holy spirit which he poured out on his disciples as a result of returning to heaven and sitting on God's right hand worked miracles which proved to all his resurrection and enthronement. This merely resulted in more persecution, much like Pharaoh before Moses whose heart became hardened as he witnessed God's Kingship in action by the plagues he suffered.
      Jesus did begin ruling in the first century, but his presence was for a future time, and that is what Matthew 24:29-31 speaks of.
    - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-06 11:36:48
      Kev:
      France's commentary (NICNT-Matthew) is the best one on Mathew I've seen. There are still some things in it I have a difference with, but he seems like he tries to stay within the context in the whole thing (not just Matthew 24). He is also willing to admit when there seem to be several possible solutions to difficult passages. For the forty or so bucks I paid for it, I consider it one of my best references.
      One of my differences with him in Matthew 24 is that he does not consider Gallus's movement against Jerusalem in Nov. 66 AD as a possible fulfillment of 24:15. But all-in-all, a very good source for reference. (I've read the whole thing - all 1100 and some pages of it. And mine is chock full of personal notes.)
      I also have his Mark commentary (NIGTC), but it forces one to brush up on one's familiararity with the Greek.
    - Reply by Bobcat on 2014-04-06 11:42:13
      Kev:
      The commentary (R. T. France) on the whole of Matthew 24 & 25 is quite good reading - albeit, lengthy.
      Also, check out how he discusses the 'star of Bethlehem' in Matthew 2 (including his translation of Mt 2:2). Very interesting reading!
  - Reply by edenone1 on 2014-04-06 11:23:42
    Meleti, I'm working and can only peek in now and then, and not in the mindset to really sit down and give you a thoughtful thorough reply.
    It's not me thinking that "my" case is strong; it's more me thinking that the case for a future fulfillment is rather weak, considering the internal evidence of the Scriptures. I have been slowly leaning more and more towards a preterist approach to Jesus' words in Matthew chapter 24. I don't see how that can hurt Christianity. However, it does challenge and possibly destroy the apocalyptic views of the future that are so dear to groups such as ours, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and make us question our own existence.
    I'm willing to concede to strong arguments - I don't have an "agenda" to push forward, unlike many. I follow the evidence to find the truth.
    Eden

Comment by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-06 15:29:25
From today's study, paragraph 15: "The first group was on hand in 1914, and they readily discerned the sign of Christ's presence in that year." This is a complete misrepresentation of the facts, an utter falsehood. The Bible Students under C.T.Russell believed the Presence of Christ began in 1874. They believed 1914 would mark the start of the great tribulation. It wasn't until the late 1920s that we began to teach 1914 as the start of Christ's presence.
(I am sorry I missed this when I did the post.)
- Reply by m on 2014-04-06 17:35:36
  Meleti thanks for your opinion on acts 7v 56 thats very interesting as well .also thanks bobcat for your encouragement .I have got the new commentry on the bible but didnt notice till today matthews commentry is by France .Thanks i will check out matthew 2 .Thanks again meleti for your website your doing a great job . I find it enthralling to have these discussions about the scriptures kev
- Reply by on 2014-04-06 20:58:58
  The first group was still alive in 1920. I see no lies here.
  - Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-06 23:10:33
    The lie is that the article claims the first group was on hand in 1914 (true) and they readily discerned the sign of Christ's presence in that year (false). In 1914 the year they "readily (yet mistakenly) discerned as the sign of Christ's presence was 1874. The article causes us to think that in 1914, those anointed one on hand believed or discerned that Christ's presence began in that year. Not true. What they thought began in that year was the great tribulation. The Governing Body know that in 1914 the brothers believed that the presence of Christ was already 40 years along, so to claim that they though it began in that year is patently and provably false.
    - Reply by on 2014-04-07 11:13:51
      What a joke that study was. One brother said, "If you don't understand it, don't worry about it, because it will probably change again in a couple of years".

Comment by search4truth on 2014-04-07 19:56:21
Wt conductor asked audience a question , if they think that this explanation of generation is clearer. Some people in audience did shake their head in disagreement, but others made comments in definitive agreement ( we can't really bring out anything contrary Wt teaching so this is not surprising ) and one older sister commented that we don't know the hour so we shouldn't really say anything definitive. Also using Rom 13:11 to justify that we know the season is I think out of context.

Comment by Anjinsan on 2014-04-08 04:58:17
During the question dealing on the new interpretation of this generation, we were not really forthcoming with comments. At a point the Wt. conductor caught my smile . Probably he felt I understood moments like that( having served as a watchtower conductor for some period). After a comment was made he was tactful not to pursue the matter any further.
What's your take on Rom. 13:11? For the moment I am more comfortable with Barnes commentary. For two reasons:
1. It rules out the fact that Apostle Paul was speculating.
2. It does not allow any person to use it as a basis to forward a personal agenda.
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2014-04-08 08:40:46
  A lot of brothers, especially older one, seem to be uncomfortable with it. Remember that Circuit Assembly part about "this generation"? It called for an interview with an older long-time elder specifically. Most deal with the cognitive dissonance it created by ignoring it, and when it's brought up in an article, they refrain from participating. It's a quiet rebellion. They rebel by not taking part. We'll see if the Governing Body will leave it at that.
  Thanks for raising Romans 13:11. I concur with you view and with Barnes commentary.

Comment by search4truth on 2014-04-08 08:44:40
I agree with Barnes commentary on this scripture and I like the John Wesley commentary as well- "And do this - Fulfil the law of love in all the instances above mentioned. Knowing the season - Full of grace, but hasting away. That it is high time to awake out of sleep - How beautifully is the metaphor carried on! This life, a night; the resurrection, the day; the gospel shining on the heart, the dawn of this day; we are to awake out of sleep; to rise up and throw away our night - clothes, fit only for darkness, and put on new; and, being soldiers, we are to arm, and prepare for fight, who are encompassed with so many enemies. The day dawns when we receive faith, and then sleep gives place. Then it is time to rise, to arm, to walk, to work, lest sleep steal upon us again. Final salvation, glory, is nearer to us now, than when we first believed - It is continually advancing, flying forward upon the swiftest wings of time. And that which remains between the present hour and eternity is comparatively but a moment."I would say this passage is more about having a waiting attitude and living everyday christian life rather then trying to predict Christ second coming..

Comment by Dieter G on 2015-05-28 09:09:01
I have thoroughly addressed the dilemma surrounding this generation question, which is a big JW issue, but in reality ought not exist if properly examined and not
denomi-nationalised.
What do I do now? Please examine the details on the following quote from my webpage: http://www.sanctifyname.com/generation.html :
____________________________________________________________________
For all Christians interested in the meaning and duration of:
Generation — and its end-time significance or otherwise.
Matthew 24:34: “Assuredly, I say to you. this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. ASV
From Strong’s Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words:
1074 genea
from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; TDNT-1:662,114; n f
AV-generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1; 42
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation),
a space of 30-33 years
Readers may feel free to take their pick from the above definitions according to their own understanding. It would serve them better, however, if they were to do so within the broad and exclusive scriptural framework of Israel's salvation.
The Generation of Matthew 24:34 is that very generation for whom Jesus used a lot of choice words and expressions like these:
A wicked and adulterous generation; this wicked generation; this generation,
the one he preached to; O faithless and twisted generation; All these things will
come upon this generation; Truly I say to you that this generation will by no
means pass away until all these things occur;
There were no future time scenarios attached to Jesus' frequent use of generation as he addressed the very people he had come for and was a part of, his Israelite brothers.
Many Christian orgs attach future fulfilments to these early events for positional
advantage, but all in vain, because like the literal Jerusalem has 'relocated', as it
were, into the heavenly realm where it was all along, with the earthly similes just
the shadows of those heavenly virtual realities, which included all of the shadows
of Jerusalem's geographical environs.
That is where Armageddon will be fought when the demon angels ruling the nations
as if they were kings and princes (see Daniel), are gathered and confined for the
final 1000 years of Jehovah's rest day to be released at its end for Him to personally
deal with all that had occurred during His exclusively earth-related creative rest day.
But to continue with the end-times subject:
Israel were to experience a number of terminations or ends . The first End was her dismissal as the wife of her husbandly owner Jehovah when Nebuchadnezzar's armed forces destroyed the temple along with Jerusalem in 607 (won’t argue about that date, because the biblical 70 year desolation and exile has priority over religious speculation) - Jeremiah 25:11-12; 29:10; Daniel 9:2.
At that time the Ark of the covenant containing the marriage vow documents and tokens, symbolizing Jehovah’s husbandly presence, also disappeared and was never restored into the rebuilt temple's most holy after the exile, indicating the finality of the divorce.
She remained on death row awaiting her death as an adulterous wife from that time forward until her death in Jesus, the Passover lamb to save God's firstborn son Israel a second and final time -Exodus 4:22.
70 CE when the Roman armies completely destroyed her, the temple and all the genealogical records along with her way of life under the Law covenant temporarily bequeathed to her as a protection after the Babylonian exile in keeping with the 70-week prophecy in Daniel 9. That was the second End of the house of Jacob - the people Israel.
(Ezekiel 16 be a good read to set her record straight and then to the Mosaic Law to ascertain the penalty due adulterous wives - Deuteronomy 22:22-24)
The third End of Israel will be when the little flock of anointed Israel* commences its rule in heaven as the Heavenly Kingdom of God to fulfil its original purpose as the seed of Abraham to bless all humans who ever lived to have the same opportunity Adam originally had to decide their individual future for themselves.
* Christians i.e. anointed, multiethnic, redeemed, ransomed, repurchased Israel
- see Romans 11; and all the epistles for that matter.
Revelation chapter 7 is not a bad place to look either; and then there is Jeremiah 31:31; Luke chapters 1 and 2; Matthew 15:24; Galatians 3:28-29, 4:5; Hebrews 9:15 –the whole of the bible really.
This will also mark the end of any racial, ethnic and national divisions including that of the house of Jacob/Israel.
Humanity will rejoice at being one people and will have 1000 years to sort it under the benign but firm global governance of the Kingdom of the Heavens.
The greatest and most wonderful future feature will be the complete absence of religion, which will never again raise its ugly head of dominance over human beings ever again!
There will however be a fourth End when that general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, Paul speaks about in Hebrews 12:23, being the firstborn son of God Israel (Exodus 4:22) enrolled in the heavens as Kings and Priests under Christ the King of Kings, will abdicate, as it were, and hand over all their authority and power back to Jehovah God who will then be able to conclude the 7th day of creation, as He did the other six, with the phrase "And there was evening and there was morning, a seventh day", which will bring the creative week of 49000 years to a successful and glorious conclusion, and He will have accomplished this entirely without religion.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28:
24 Then cometh, the end, when he the Christ shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he the Christ shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he the Christ must reign, till he the Christ hath put all his the Christ’s enemies under his the Christ feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
27 For he Jehovah put all things in subjection under his the Christ’s feet.* But when he the Christ saith, ' All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He Jehovah is excepted who did subject all things unto him the Christ. 28 And when all things have been subjected unto him the Christ, then shall the Son also himself the Christ be subjected to Him Jehovah that did subject all things unto him the Christ, that God may be all in all. ASV
*A reference to Psalm 8:6 which is part of the description of the relationship
humans have been assigned to have with all earthly creation, which also
applies to the son of man Jesus, for he was complete man:
3 When I consider the heavens, the work of thy fingers, The moon and the stars,
which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the
son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than
God *. And crownest him with glory and honor. 6 Thou makest him to have
dominion over the works of thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet;
7 All sheep and oxen, Yea, and the beasts of the field. 8 The birds of the heavens,
and the fish of the sea, Whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9 0h Jehovah, our Lord, How excellent is thy name in all the earth! ASV
(Psalm 8 is but a lovely poetic embellishment of Genesis 1:26-28)
There may be other ways to read 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, even as many learned and other Christians are having a field day with, but none would impact on the events described.
This handover of 1 Corinthians 15 then marks another end: The End of the New Testament * when the firstborn son and testator Israel passes off the scene of the assignment for which he was sent and dies in his special capacity and ‘national’ identity commensurate with that assignment.
This death also validates the New Testament so that God can now become the final heir at the end of His 7000-year rest day as He inherits all that the seed of Abraham has accomplished and, of course, a heavenly administration that Jehovah will forever use to manage the universe's increasing population as they expand from the original base and starting point earth to other habitable planets without ever having to be concerned with or fear Star-Wars because Jehovah had already established the necessary legal precedents to deal with any future rebellion.
And it shall all be accomplished WITHOUT RELIGION!
There is yet more on the page on my site I am quoting from.
With that I shall sign off in a manner of speaking.

Comment by Buster on 2015-06-07 02:50:41
I love this long long discussion.. It is very refreshing and thoughtful. I love that over nearly from 1879 to 2014 we still don't have this peg down on THIS GENERATION. I love how the Organization is trying the best to try to change there minds from 1995 to 2015 on this Generation.
But what really fry's my bottom is how the watchtower April 15, 2010 Jesus Evidently Meant ...... How in all that is holy Know what Jesus Meant after nearly 2000 years.... Why can't they say we just don't know and leave it in Jesus and Jehovah hand..... Cause Jesus did not mention Once this Overlapping Shenanigans

Comment by Buster on 2015-06-07 02:59:08
I asked one brother that it made no sense and it is just wrong. He looked at me and said nothing. I asked him I read Matthew 23-25 more times then anything in the Bible. And there is no scripture proof this Overlapping is just Nonsense and really Wrong... He said it makes sense to him. I asked show me in the bible...No answer
- Reply by Meleti Vivlon on 2015-06-07 08:49:26
  Hi Buster,
  They need the Generation doctrine to continue as a means to calculate how close to the end we are. They need to keep the rank-and-file JW anxious that the end is just a few years away so that the fear will cause him to continue to put faith in and obey the Governing Body. He is led to believe that if he is not in the organization when the end comes, he'll die.
  So as ridiculous as this latest interpretation is, they need it to control their flock. However, continuing to create and recreate false expectations is wearing thin. They've already exceeded their "best by" date.

This Generation – A New Premise

What the Disciples Asked

Jesus’ Response—A Warning

Jesus Answers the First Question

A New Warning

Jesus Answers Parts 2 and 3

This Generation

In Conclusion

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